Literary Clusterfucks 2013

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Beginning to think maybe a rolling thread might be good. Anyway:

So Alisa Valdes just publishes this memoir about this cowboy of hers and how he's a man's man and now's she's a woman like never before and etc. That link's to Hanna Rosin's review, and she's essentially going "Um...you sure?"

And then Valdes publishes this today.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:15 (six years ago) link

That said, a lot can happen in two years, especially when you’re in a relationship with a man as complicated and volatile as the cowboy.

j., Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:17 (six years ago) link

"what I actually wrote was a handbook for women on how to fall in love with a manipulative, controlling, abusive narcissist."

just what the world needed. like a poke in the eye.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:32 (six years ago) link

jesus

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:35 (six years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FORoSB5JxCU

"Cowboy up."

jim, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:44 (six years ago) link

none of these people are really writers

― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, June 4, 2010 1:18 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:49 (six years ago) link

wtf @ that whole story

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:50 (six years ago) link

polo shirt under a jacket, tho

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:50 (six years ago) link

I see by your outfit that you are a cowboy.
You see by my outfit that I'm a cowboy, too.
We see by these outfits that we are all cowboys.
If you buy a cowboy outfit, you can be a cowboy, too.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 01:50 (six years ago) link

damn nm I just actually read this shit how f'd up

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:07 (six years ago) link

i keep reading her name as alida valli

difficult listening hour, Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:27 (six years ago) link

jesus

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:37 (six years ago) link

I don't know if we do this around here but there's some srs abuse and sexual assault triggers in Ned's second link

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:47 (six years ago) link

it's probably a good thing that she's posting a picture of her rapist on the internet, now we can watch out for him

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:51 (six years ago) link

man that's a tough read

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 02:51 (six years ago) link

cowboyfucks

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 03:11 (six years ago) link

How much you wanna bet that Mr Cowboy is gonna be a MRA talking head

Theodora Celery, Thursday, 10 January 2013 03:49 (six years ago) link

In 2001, Valdes emailed a 3400-word resignation letter to her superiors at the Los Angeles Times. The letter was widely circulated on the Internet[ and reprinted in the St. Petersburg Times. In the letter she accused the newspaper of racism and discrimination, especially in its synonymous use of the word "latino" with "Spanish-speaker", a practice she equated to genocide.

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 03:54 (six years ago) link

buzza are you suggesting that alisa valdes is hysterical or otherwise to be dismissed

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:32 (six years ago) link

this is not the elizabeth wurtzel thread

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:35 (six years ago) link

And so, even though I was 43 years old and have Lupus

WHY DO THESE FANFICCY CRAP ROMANCE NOVELISTS ALWAYS HAVE LUPUS OR FIBRO WTF.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:36 (six years ago) link

hm prob should have read the whole post of hers before making light. still, this shit brings the whole 50 shades bullshit into its awful, true light.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 04:46 (six years ago) link

Considering Valdes wrote one of the single most amazing demolitions of a horrible person ever, reading/seeing all this...yeah.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:43 (six years ago) link

okay that was awesome. thanks for linking that Ned

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:48 (six years ago) link

still cannot get over her story with the cowboy. so fucked up. I mean, just that it reads so familiarly, is so sad to me.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:52 (six years ago) link

this is not the elizabeth wurtzel thread

oh, okay then

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 05:55 (six years ago) link

“An irresistible, post-feminist Taming of the Shrew. Don’t be scared by the premise. This is not a story about a woman relinquishing her identity. Quite the opposite. It is a riveting tale about how a brilliant, strong-minded woman liberated herself from a dreary, male-bashing, reality-denying feminism.”

– Christina Hoff Sommers, author of The War Against Boys; How Misguided Feminism is Harming Our Young Men

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:24 (six years ago) link

a practice she equated to genocide

ugh fuck this, there is like a 100% chance she was referring to cultural genocide, a term used for decades and not meant to imply the actual murder of a group of people

#guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:25 (six years ago) link

http://www.sptimes.com/News/110300/Floridian/The_language_of_genoc.shtml

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:37 (six years ago) link

buzza idgi are you trying to damage the credibility of the woman who basically just announced she wrote a book about a man who raped her

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:39 (six years ago) link

apparently so?

it's tough when you can only speak in the form of revived threads

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 07:53 (six years ago) link

seemed like zachylon wanted the context of the wiki quote so i provided it?

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 08:02 (six years ago) link

thank you for posting it

she does make a clear distinction between the two types of genocide tho she doesn't mark it with "cultural" or something similar. she does 'equate' the two but that's sort of the idea, while the wiki editor left out any of that context and framed it like "she compared this one tiny linguistic choice with the holocaust", fuck wiki

#guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Thursday, 10 January 2013 08:56 (six years ago) link

"literary"

Broken Clock Britain (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 10 January 2013 09:18 (six years ago) link

I have a lot of thoughts about this whole thing and also some feelings but none are organized enough to share except for, Jesus, Lady--at least when I did that I didn't write a book about it.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 14:49 (six years ago) link

considering that one of the major goals of feminism was to protect women from the power imbalances present in domestic relationships, it's not super surprising that valdes' paean to how feminism got romance wrong and how there's something special about a real man turned out to be about an abusive asshole. i don't mean to suggest that she deserves what happened in the least, but there is a sort of irony that the very political principles she decried in the context of this relationship turned out to be especially relevant to her needs.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:01 (six years ago) link

xp On second thought that makes it sound like my experience was as extreme as hers: it was not. I also didn't put it in those terms of submission etc or posit that it revealed anything about how feminism has failed us. And I didn't have to jump out of a moving truck although after getting hit by an actual car frankly I'd take another one of those accidents over another of those relationships.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:03 (six years ago) link

there is a sort of irony that the very political principles she decried in the context of this relationship turned out to be especially relevant to her needs.

It's not like that's a coincidence. She decried them because she was being told to.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:07 (six years ago) link

really want some blogger to try to get a reaction out of christina hoff summers

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:13 (six years ago) link

I usually assume "How I did X and Changed My Life" memoirists are flighty, superficial and unrealistic people, because shit just doesn't work like that. This is a particularly egregious example.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:25 (six years ago) link

This is a horrible horrible story.

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 15:40 (six years ago) link

btw, I regret my above post, having apparently made it without really reading most of the story in her blog post.

However, the blog post is now gone.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:44 (six years ago) link

?!

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:44 (six years ago) link

this just got a little clusterfuckier

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:46 (six years ago) link

without the followup blog post this is kind of incoherent

she wrote a fluffy romance novel that seems to spend half its time scolding modern feminism, then revealed that the man she was writing about raped and abused her and (this is where things are fuzzy to me) the whole novel was a double-feint?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:52 (six years ago) link

it's a memior!

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:53 (six years ago) link

ergh

so, replace "romance novel" with "memoir"; is the rest accurate?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:54 (six years ago) link

Yup.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:54 (six years ago) link

huh

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:55 (six years ago) link

Given some of the things she was also saying about her publisher I wonder if that had something to do with it.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:55 (six years ago) link

Was just wondering the same thing.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

not really a double feint in my reading; the now-gone blog post says the memior was written a couple years ago while still under the heavy influence of the guy and (i think?) before the most egregious instances of abuse had happened

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

the memoir was finished 2 years ago and some shit has gone down since then.

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

she also previously blogged about her breakup with him without as far as I can tell mentioning abuse or rape, which of course doesn't mean it didn't happen. But she wrote things like,

I am grateful for this entire experience, and I do not view this breakup as in any way being counter to the message of my book. I still love Steve, and I am convinced that I always will. This breakup hurts more than my divorce, because the depth and intensity of the love was the most profound thing I have experienced, other than being a mother.

I probably should have seen it coming, given what little I knew of his dating/family/job/friendship history. I ignored the red flags, and I chose to live in a state of hope. That’s not a bad thing, really. It was a glorious 1.5 years. Best of my life. I would not trade them for anything. I have never felt more at peace, and more alive, and more on fire with wanting than I did at his little house in the middle of nowhere, lying next to him in the deathly quiet of night. I am a completely changed human being for having known this man, in every way, and so the basic message of the memoir remains true, and always will. This relationship changed me, and just because it has been taken from me does not mean I am no longer changed. I am forever changed, better, new, reborn, wiser. Should I someday ever get to that place again where I feel I’m able to have another relationship (seems unlikely right now) I’d like to think my future boyfriend will owe Steve a thank-you letter for the woman I became with him — a gentler, more compassionate, more thoughtful and womanly version of the person I’d always been.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

when did the alleged abuse go down?

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:58 (six years ago) link

(blog post was October 2012)

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 16:58 (six years ago) link

The now-removed post also says that she sugar-coated things for her blog so that readers wouldn't know how bad it was.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:00 (six years ago) link

redacted blog post

I’ve had more than a dozen books published, but never have I had a publication day come and go without so much as an email from my editor, wishing me well — until now. With the recent publication of my first memoir, The Feminist & The Cowboy: An Unlikely Love Story, I have had the odd experience of having been essentially shunned by my publisher, one assumes because the reality of my life more than a year after having turned in the final manuscript is different from the ending one might have liked to have seen if my life were the made-for-TV movie or fairy tale my publisher seemed to have hoped they might market my book as. I have been advised not to discuss any of this publicly, to just accept this cold shoulder and lack of support as my penance for the crime of being openly broken up with the cowboy when I should have just pretended we were still together long enough to sell books. I have tried to be cooperative, but as the early reviews come rolling in for the book I feel compelled to come clean — totally clean — with my readers. I do this because I think it will help to make sense of a book that in many ways just doesn’t make sense to healthy people, and because I believe very firmly that the truth is the only currency a writer has, and that if there is any hope of redeeming this book and making it meaningful it lies in the full story of my relationship with the cowboy and not just in the candy-coated version that appears in the book.

The first thing I think readers need to understand is just how much time it takes for a book to go from a writer’s computer files to a bookstore shelf. It takes more than a year, usually. That year is used for things like cover design, advance publicity for magazines, visits with book buyers from members of the sales team. So the version of my life that hit shelves last week is actually more than two years old.

That said, a lot can happen in two years, especially when you’re in a relationship with a man as complicated and volatile as the cowboy. There has been some confusion because in addition to the book I have also kept a sporadic blog about my ongoing relationship with the cowboy. Those who followed the blog understood that things changed, and they followed along with me. But for those reviewers who are new to the party, just learning about me from the memoir and then seeing on my blog that the relationship described in the book both wasn’t what it seemed, eventually, and is not in existence anymore, there is understandably a sense of having been the victim of a bait-and-switch operation. I am truly sorry for this, and I wish to reassure readers that no one in the world feels more the victim of bait and switch than I.

What I mean by this is that while I set out to write a memoir that was a love letter to a man I was deeply in love with, a man who challenged me in myriad ways, a man who changed my life profoundly, a man I respected and honored greatly at the time, what I actually wrote was a handbook for women on how to fall in love with a manipulative, controlling, abusive narcissist. The fascinating thing about the release of the book, for me, has been just how many reviewers have seen what I failed to see when I wrote the book: That the cowboy was controlling and abusive. I simply never saw it then. I admired and nearly worshipped the man. One reviewer described her disappointment in having learned that I was still with him at the end of the book, saying that she could not help but to think of cult members as she read my adoring account of a man who, to her eyes and through nothing but my journalistic descriptions of his interactions with me, was obviously a domineering abuser. It hurts to read reviews like that, but it is also empowering for me now. See, while I didn’t understand just what kind of man I’d fallen for at the start, and during the writing of the book, the longer we were together the more obvious it became.

That said, I want to come clean with something else. There is a LOT you don’t know about the cowboy and how he treated me. I kept a lot of it under wraps, because I had turned a book in and I was trying to be a good contract employee and not completely sabotage the book by telling the whole story on my blog. But with my publisher’s complete lack of support now, and with the reviews so clearly describing for me the fact that healthy women, whole women, are able to recognize in the cowboy a dangerous man that I was, in my blindness and lack of experience with abusive men, unable to see, I feel that the only possible way for any of this to make sense to anyone is for the entire story to be known. To be honest about it puts me in danger — real physical danger — so I am reluctant. But I also feel I owe it to my loyal readers and fans to be truthful now. It is the decent thing to do.

One reader wrote to me via a comment on this blog, condemning me for finding the cowboy’s behaviors abusive now, where I said they were wonderful before. This would be a fair condemnation if it were true. Though I have referred to the cowboy being abusive on my blog, I have never listed the reasons I believe this. If all you had to go on was the book, you could very well jump to the same conclusion my critic did. I don’t blame her, and I totally understand.

I have been working on a sequel about the cowboy and me, and though I am quite sure my publisher won’t want it I will likely self-publish it soon. In it, I plan to detail the ways I was fooled and manipulated, the mistakes I made in choosing to ignore red flags, the many unfortunate ways that I started to subsume and lose myself in order to please an unpleasable and controlling man. I hope that in doing so I will help to make sense of the first book, both for you guys and for myself. What I want to emphasize here is that the first book was NOT an attempt to sell a lie; it was a sincere, heartfelt memoir that came during the honeymoon period of an abusive relationship, before I understood just how much danger I was putting myself in, with me justifying the hints of violence through my own romanticized version of the American cowboy icon and, unfortunately, with me blinded by this man’s almost unfathomable physical beauty, which was almost impossible to reconcile with the brutality that this most handsome shell encased.

In the interest of retaining some respectability, I will tell you a few of the more painful moments, so that you can understand just how quickly things changed and just how violently they escalated. I do this as a warning to other women, too. For many years, I simply scratched my head at women in abusive relationships, unable to understand why they stayed, judgmental of them for not being smarter. What I didn’t understand was just how masterful some men can be at the seduction and honeymoon phase, just how ruthlessly perfect they can present themselves to be, before the screw begins to tighten, and tighten, until you one day wake up and don’t even recognize yourself anymore.

The worst of it began in April last year, when I discovered the cowboy and I had accidentally become pregnant. While I am pro-choice in theory, I am pro-life for myself. I could not abort that child. It went against everything I believed. And so, even though I was 43 years old and have Lupus, even though my pregnancy with my son had been a living hell 12 years before, I decided I would have the child. When I sat down face to face with the cowboy to discuss the situation, he was very kind at the start. He was supportive and said he wanted to help us sort out the best way to handle things. When I told him I was going to have the child, I expected he’d be supportive, even if he, like I, was overwhelmed by the idea of becoming parents to an infant at our ages (he was 53). Instead, his eyes grew snake cold. He glared at me, and moved away from me. He was angry, and told me very clearly: “Looks like you’ve made up your mind, but here’s what you need to know. You can have me, or you can have the baby, but you can’t have both.” I was stunned. I balked. “You don’t mean that,” I said. “You say you love me and my son, you wouldn’t just leave us because I’ve decided to have your child.” He smirked then, his eyes crueler and colder than anything I’d ever seen, and he said, simply, “Watch me.” With that, he got up, got the overnight bag he’d brought to my house in the city, and he walked out the door to return to the ranch, four hours away. He did not answer my phone calls or emails after that. I was dead to him.

I grieved harder than I have ever grieved in my life, absolutely astonished that any human being could contain within him the capacity to be so mean and selfish. I called many friends and family, and they got me through it. I tried to forget the cowboy, and kept the breakup and pregnancy a secret for the sake of my publisher, continued to post cheerful blogs about my supposed relationship. It was hell on earth. I tried to figure out how I was going to make it, how I was going to be a single mother while enduring what promised to be a painful and difficult pregnancy, how I would raise a newborn while still caring for my adolescent son, who would likely have to step in to be a mini-daddy for his sibling. It was truly awful. But I made my choice. The baby. Not the cowboy.

Then, at my first prenatal ultrasound appointment, the technician told me something terrifying. There was no baby anymore. The blood tests said I was pregnant, but there was no detectable sack or embryo. They rushed me to the hospital, thinking I was having an ectopic pregnancy. After observing me for a week, they concluded instead that I had miscarried. My father contacted the cowboy to let him know how distraught I was, how much I was suffering. This is because my father truly had sympathy for the cowboy, whom he saw as “a tragic figure,” because the cowboy had his shining moments, where he clearly longed to truly connect and love, but was unable to do either meaningfully because of severe abuses he had suffered as a child. The cowboy rushed to the hospital, full of apologies. We reconciled, because I was weak and stupid and wanted him to be the man I had once believed he was, the man I wrote about in the memoir I’d turned in months before. I wanted to make the fairy tale come true again. I wanted things the way I’d thought they were.

Things changed for good then, though. We tried to muddle through, but it just got worse and worse. There were certainly moments of great beauty and love, I cannot deny that, but underlying it all was this unrest, this unfortunate beast that would raise its head now and then, and more and more frequently. There were signs of physical violence to come, textbook signals. The cowboy bragging nonstop about all the fights he’d been in, all the men he’d put in the hospital, while polishing his guns in front of me, letting me know just what I might be in for if I got out of line again. There was the time we had an argument, the time I dared to challenge him and insist that I was right about something, when he, furious with me and so much bigger than me, simply dragged me down the hall to the bedroom, bent me over, and took me, telling me as he did so that I must never forget who was in charge, that I must learn to be nicer, that I must learn…to obey. Yes. I am not proud. I was so beaten down by then, from the constant daily criticisms, from the constant erosion of my self esteem, that I just took it, and wept, and apologized, and promised to do better. I did not think I would become someone like that. And there was a part of me hidden away inside, kept safe, that watched it all and waited for my chance to escape… There was the night we argued at my house, and he was going to leave, as he always did, stonewalling and locking me out being his favorite weapons, his silent treatments going on sometimes for weeks on end, the emails finally coming in which he said he was willing to come back as long as I changed a long list of things about myself, and me always caving in…but that night, he was brutal again, when I tried to say I was sorry, when I tried to stop the inevitable stonewalling, he glared, called me a mouthy cunt, told me to get to my side of the bed and not touch him, told me that he couldn’t stand the sight of me, told me that if I really wanted to impress him then I’d be a good girl and just shut the fuck up, and his finger poking me in the chest, and then wagged in my face, telling me that my biggest problem, the reason he would never marry me after all, was that I was a woman who just didn’t know when to shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, and me saying I would, that I would be quiet, and turning my back to him so he wouldn’t hear me cry, and him feeling the bed shake anyway and yelling at me that I was pathetic, that if I wanted him to stay then I better stop fucking crying, and me running into my closet with my phone to fall in a heap on the floor and text myself so that in the morning I’d remember that this was NOT okay, that this was NOT love, and him pretending the next morning that nothing had happened.

The last day I saw him, I jumped out of a moving truck to get away from him. He was in a rage. He’d called me a useless cunt this time, a mouthy bitch, all manner of names. He’d told me what a terrible mother I was. He’d attacked, attacked, attacked, all because I didn’t say hello to him the right way when he came back from running the dogs on the ranch. He was convinced I was being bratty because I didn’t react with enough enthusiasm to his return. This unleashed an avalanche of hatred. I stood there in the sun, disbelieving, trying to reason with him. He told me that I needed to leave. “Get your shit and let’s go,” he said. It was getting late, and he knew I hated driving home from the ranch in the dark because so much of the rural highway out there had no cell service. If I got a flat tire or something I’d be doomed. I asked if I could just stay in the guest room until the morning. “You can either get your shit and put it in the truck yourself,” he said, “or I will drag you by the hair, beat your ass to the ground, hog-tie you with duct tape, and throw your ass in the back of the truck. One way or another, you will be leaving. You decide.” He meant it. By this time, he had raised his hand to me on at least three occasions, but had yet to strike me. He always blamed me for this. I drove him to it. Anyway, I got in the truck, and we started to leave. I was hysterical, and afraid, and he began to talk about how much he wanted to beat my ass down. The truck was going slowly, and the look in his eye was terrifying. I really believed he would kill me. He’d hinted at it. So I opened the door, and I jumped. I thought I’d land on my feet. I didn’t. I landed facedown on a bunch of rocks, nearly crushed under the back tires, dislocating my shoulder, badly cut and bruised everywhere, my hip filling with blood. I screamed. He stopped the truck, walked over, looked at me on the ground as I begged him to call an ambulance. “Only you would be stupid enough to jump out of a moving truck,” he told me. He did not help me, or come near me. Instead, he said he was going to the hunting lodge to get some witnesses, in case I tried to tell the police he had done this to me. In that instant, I finally fucking understood — this man did not love me. He could not love anyone. He was alone in his anger and paranoia. I pushed my shoulder back into joint, struggled to my feet, and terrified he’d kill me, I got my dog out of the back seat, and my purse, and I ran for the hills. I hid in ravines and canyons, behind juniper bushes, and walked the 16 miles back to my car. I drove away, and never saw him again.

That is what’s going on. That is why the release of this memoir is so bittersweet for me. The book was true, when I wrote it. But life changed. I didn’t try to fool anyone, or to exploit anything. Rather, I believed in a man who didn’t deserve it. I fell for the incredible charm and manipulations such men are capable of. I failed to see what women who are wiser than I was are clearly seeing as they read my book — that this man was “a jerk,” as one reviewer said. I didn’t know. Worst of all, I wrote about my love and my flexibility and compromises in so glowing and beautiful a way as to secure a book deal from a wonderful publisher, an elite publisher, and now the same publisher is treating me like I have the plague, all because, I feel, I have saved my own life. I didn’t set out to deceive them. No one wanted the fairy tale more than I did! Ironically, being “punished” by the publisher feels a bit like the abusive emotional stonewalling the cowboy would do to me when I didn’t knuckle under and do what HE needed me to do for HIS needs…it’s familiar territory, only now it’s being done to me by a progressive woman in New York. I’m not a commodity. I’m not an object. I’m not a thing to be sold. I am a human being, a writer, an artist, a work in progress, and real life is messy sometimes, especially when it comes to love and abuse. I am deeply wounded by the stonewalling from my editor, as wounded as I ever was when the cowboy did it to me…

I’m sure I’ll get shit for posting this. I’m betraying my publisher, who would have liked for me to be the next Ree Drummond. Hell, I would have liked for me to be the next Ree Drummond. But I wasn’t. I was the only Alisa Valdes, learning as I went along, living honestly and hopefully, trying to love. The only way the memoir works is if it is allowed to be what it IS rather than what others might like for it to have been. What is it? It is a guidebook for women on what falling in love with a controlling abuser looks like. It is a handbook on what NOT to do, what to run away from. I did not know it then. Then, I felt safe and thrilled, impressed with myself for having secured such a hot, strong, strapping, manly man. It was an illusion. Underneath it all was a scared, insecure boy, who talked the talk but didn’t walk the walk, a man who only felt good enough when he was making others feel badly. The memoir is important, and it is valuable, but not without this afterward. The message of the book, as I see it? Even smart, educated, self-sufficient, thoughtful women can get sucked into abusive relationships, and it will happen slowly, a little at a time, like a frog in a pot of cold water that is placed over a low flame, that even someone like me can, sometimes, be slowly boiled to death, that maybe we will write beautifully about how relaxing the warm water is, at first…

Finally, I want to say that I do not blame ranch life or cowboy culture for any of what the cowboy turned out to be. He could have been an accountant and it would have been the same. He was what he was because his own mother and father failed to love him. He was an abused child himself, and that was perhaps the hardest part of it all — that I saw glimpses of that little boy, the boy who so desperately wanted and needed to be loved, and sometimes he was playful, and joyous, and sweet, and happy, sometimes he loved, sometimes he allowed others to love him. Sometimes, we were happy. Blissfully happy. And that’s the part I never understood about abuse — that it doesn’t always feel like abuse. Sometimes, lots of the time, it felt like heaven.

I’m grateful to have gone through it. I learned a lot. I grew a lot. And now I know what so many of you who are reading the book already know — how to spot a controlling, abusive man from the get go. And I assure you: It won’t happen again.

In his own words:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5jqqChQ3RA

CGI fridays (Edward III), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:00 (six years ago) link

that seems plausible I guess

whatever is going on here seems sad and not good and I kind of feel like I want to stop gawking at it now

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:02 (six years ago) link

"seems plausible I guess" = the sugar-coating part xpost, I wasn't commenting on the story in the blog

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:04 (six years ago) link

O_O jesus

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:08 (six years ago) link

I wish ppl would stop using "feel badly."

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:09 (six years ago) link

She's on the air right now!

--

Alisa Valdes Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa

About to go live on the radio with Amy Oliver on 1310 KFKA in CO to talk about #feministandcowboy. @gothambooks http://ow.ly/gHCCF

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa

Listen in! I'm on live. http://ow.ly/gHEeG

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:12 (six years ago) link

Seems to be talking about language issues right now.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:13 (six years ago) link

I can see why that post was taken down; actually putting up a video of the dude along with naming and shaming the agent at the publisher seem conducive to getting your ass sued

also I hate myself for this but her idea of physical perfection is a Gelfling cowboy?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:14 (six years ago) link

I wish ppl would stop using "feel badly."

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:09 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

unless they have a congenital insensitivity to pain

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:14 (six years ago) link

Natch.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:25 (six years ago) link

her publisher should probably just pulp the books at this point tbh

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:31 (six years ago) link

The radio interview is annoying but I think it's the interviewer's doing.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:32 (six years ago) link

did the deleted post come up at all?? crazy if not

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:32 (six years ago) link

Nothing yet, but the interview is continuing.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:33 (six years ago) link

So far they've agreed that cowboys are hot and alpha-male behavior is understandably attractive to women because evolution. So this is definitely a good use of my time.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:36 (six years ago) link

so she basically had a 24-hour window of saying her book was a lie and her cowboy was a rapist? wtf is going on here

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:40 (six years ago) link

Oh okay now she's saying her new boyfriend wrote the cowboy a thank-you letter for having tamed the shrew. Verbatim, btw. We're done here.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:40 (six years ago) link

Yeah this is VERY weird. What the hell.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:42 (six years ago) link

Ugh. The most dispiriting thing about this is she's confused fuck-worthy with actually interesting for a relationship. Not only does she paint him as immensely unattractive (to me) in her deleted blog post but I immediately shy away from women who tend to be attracted to brutes as they invariably tend to be tedious. If you're attracted to assholes, fine, but don't expect me to listen to you complain that they're assholes later.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:43 (six years ago) link

WTFFFFFFFFFF?

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:43 (six years ago) link

This is all very, very weird to me.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:52 (six years ago) link

ned, how did you run into this initially?

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:53 (six years ago) link

So far they've agreed that cowboys are hot and alpha-male behavior is understandably attractive to women because evolution. So this is definitely a good use of my time.

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:36 (17 minutes ago) Permalink

lol

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:55 (six years ago) link

Oh okay now she's saying her new boyfriend wrote the cowboy a thank-you letter for having tamed the shrew. Verbatim, btw. We're done here.

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:40 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah this was on her blog as well

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:56 (six years ago) link

Rod Dreher. He had just posted earlier in the day yesterday on the Rosin review, and then he noticed or was forwarded the blogpost.

Setting aside other things, his take on it -- as he has a book due for release soon, a memoir of his sister -- was this:

To be fair, what would you do if, between the time your book was finished and it was published, its whole raison d’etre collapsed? You’d pay the advance back, is one thing. Surely, though, the publisher must have grasped that this story, and the storyteller, were both extremely unstable. What is Valdes supposed to have done? If it’s true the editor and publisher stonewalled her, then that seems to have been a really bad idea. Boy, I can’t wait till the real story comes out. What a mess.

Valdes is right about the long lead time between turning in a manuscript and the book coming out. The MS for The Little Way Of Ruthie Leming locked sometime in September, but was essentially finished in August. The book won’t come out till early April — and it’s not because everyone at the publisher’s is sitting on their hands waiting. These things take time. What happened with The Feminist And the Cowboy is a nightmare for everybody — but it sounds like it ought not to have been a big surprise, given the characters involved.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:56 (six years ago) link

(Responding to Goole's question.)

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:57 (six years ago) link

huh, thx

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 17:59 (six years ago) link

"Try my delicious chocolate cakes!"
*blogs* "THE CAKES ARE ACTUALLY MADE OUT OF SHIT!!!"
*erases blog post*
*goes on radio*
"Yes they're so rich and moist"

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:00 (six years ago) link

Slate, with the embarrassing title, "Ride 'Em Cowboy!"

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/books/2013/01/alisa_valdes_the_feminist_and_the_cowboy_reviewed.html

First line: "Every era’s liberated woman gets the good fuck she deserves."

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:18 (six years ago) link

That interviewer was just a terrible speaker and story-teller, she could barely think of a coherent idea to put into words, I don't think any one sentence finished the way it began. This is who gets a radio show?? In Colorado, I guess?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:22 (six years ago) link

Oh okay now she's saying her new boyfriend wrote the cowboy a thank-you letter for having tamed the shrew. Verbatim, btw. We're done here.

I'm trying to be kind -- maybe she really needs the money from the book so is doing her best to sell it, but her comment is making me want to vomit.

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:23 (six years ago) link

The verbal instructions the cowboy gives Valdes once she agrees to submit to him are a guide to daily living. No back-talking; no second-guessing; no sarcastic, smart-ass remarks. She must never exit the car unless he opens the door for her. She must never walk on the street side of the sidewalk. In one especially creepy scene, Valdes has just overheard another woman leave a voicemail for the cowboy saying she wishes he were joining her in the shower. The cowboy lies about the voicemail, and Valdes knows he is lying. But then she remembers some article she read saying that women were “biologically programmed” to find cheating men more attractive. “I was hurt, sad, and turned on.” He unbuckles his belt, and she throws her arms around his neck. “Biology,” she writes with a shrug.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:24 (six years ago) link

I'm trying to be kind -- maybe she really needs the money from the book so is doing her best to sell it, but her comment is making me want to vomit.

― Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:23 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I kind of feel like she has a moral responsibility, at very least, to NOT promote this book assuming the erased blog post is true, whether or not she needs the money

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:27 (six years ago) link

http://www.guiltypleasuresbookreviews.com/2013/01/arc-review-the-feminist-and-the-cowboy-an-unlikely-love-story-by-alisa-valdes-rodriguez.html

The Feminist and The Cowboy is a wild ride through a time that I both remember and, am happy to admit, I was never truly involved in. Yes, I believe in woman’s rights, I even tell my husband that I didn’t need him before and I don’t need him now, but, I WANT him in my life. There’s a difference. I love when he opens the door for me, when he offers to help with the housework, when he cooks dinner. I think it sets a wonderful example for our sons to see that Dad isn’t just sitting around expecting to be waited on hand and foot and is willing to be “there” for me. And, also for my sons to see that I am still an independent woman that does not always depend on the “man” for everything in my life. It took a lot of convincing on the part of “The Cowboy” to get Alisa to see that for herself.

So, yes, I enjoyed the book. It was nice reliving those days when the name “Gloria Steinem” put fear into the eyes of men and when woman stood up for what they believed in. But, I would never have gone to the extremes that Ms. Valdez did. Now, I know that most of you are too young to remember or even know about the woman’s movement but you can thank people like Alisa for opening a lot of doors for us today. This book was refreshing, witty and a fun read. It was written with a little bit of humor (her description of her dates were hysterical) and lots of deep, inner thoughts. I give her a lot of credit for admitting to her faults, for seeing herself for how she was, for finally submitting to “The Cowboy” and giving herself up to him and be willing to change for “love” even if all that she ever knew was being threatened. I wish Alisa and “The Cowboy” many happy and fulfilling years together and honestly hope that they both get their Happily Ever After. God knows that “The Cowboy” deserves it and Alisa has earned it.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:31 (six years ago) link

@MizAlisa

Did you miss my radio interview with Amy Oliver this morning? No worries. Here's the podcast! I had such fun. Cool lady....

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:33 (six years ago) link

“An irresistible, post-feminist Taming of the Shrew. Don’t be scared by the premise. This is not a story about a woman relinquishing her identity. Quite the opposite. It is a riveting tale about how a brilliant, strong-minded woman liberated herself from a dreary, male-bashing, reality-denying feminism.”
—Christina Hoff Sommers, author of The War Against Boys; How Misguided Feminism is Harming Our Young Men

“This is a real-life romance novel, as they are truly written, where a handsome, but flawed hero enhances the life of a woman battling her own demons. He doesn't save her. She doesn't change him… The book is insightful, sassy, sarcastic, intelligent, emotional and will challenge the preconceived concepts about conservatives and liberals and everyone in between.”
–Julie Leto, New York Times bestselling author

“Valdes has written a thought-provoking exploration of her own missteps and the tremendous obstacles she has overcome to achieve happiness in the second half of her life.”
—Publishers Weekly

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:34 (six years ago) link

Such fun. xp

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:34 (six years ago) link

Valdes talked glancingly about those rules in the interview but edited/elided to make them seem reasonable: instead of "never exit the car" it was, "let him open my door when we're in his home area, because in that environment it's a sign of respect." It seems to me like she's still editing the story of her experiences for each audience to get them on board, and I wonder how much of the story she's willing to admit and stand by, even to herself.

Sometimes it's too soon to look clearly on how wrong you were and how hurt you got, I can grok that, but I wish she wasn't doing it/didn't have to do it in public.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:36 (six years ago) link

We have an answer:

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa

To those of you asking about the disappearance of yesterday's blog post: I was asked to take it down by my publisher, and did. The end.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:37 (six years ago) link

jesus

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:42 (six years ago) link

oh man I hope there isn't a tragic libel suit in the near future

gullible lochinski (Drugs A. Money), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:43 (six years ago) link

This is some bleak shit

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:44 (six years ago) link

fucking shit

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:45 (six years ago) link

fucking rapist-enabling patriarchal bullshit

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:46 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
@PerezHilton Hi. I need to talk to you!!! (Dirty Girls Social Club author) please email me? al✧✧✧.val✧✧✧@gm✧✧✧.c✧✧
10:43 AM - 10 Jan 13

just1n3, Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:46 (six years ago) link

It is a riveting tale about how a brilliant, strong-minded woman liberated herself from a dreary, male-bashing, reality-denying feminism.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 18:50 (six years ago) link

alpha publisher

sug life (rogermexico.), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:02 (six years ago) link

this whole thing is horrifying

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:02 (six years ago) link

Jezebel should pick this up. They ran a story on her last month.

jim, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:10 (six years ago) link

But Valdes is a scold: She pauses the story for extended explanations of just how little fun those of us who are not sleeping with cowboys are having. Feminism has ruined us all. In denying biology, it has thrown men into crisis. As her friend tells her, “They want to be men, but hate themselves for wanting to be men, so they push it all down and act like freakin’ Prince,”

uh

j., Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:12 (six years ago) link

Prince is the ultimate dude IMO, like how much pure swagger must you have to flaunt high heels and cover yourself in lace and still get women to fall all over themselves for you?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:13 (six years ago) link

I wish more men acted like Prince, tbh.

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:14 (six years ago) link

"hey girl, how you like my assless yellow pants?"
"AAAAIIIIIE!" *throws panties*

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:14 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
To those of you asking about the disappearance of yesterday's blog post: I was asked to take it down by my publisher, and did. The end.

Holy shit. I guess there might be some sort of contractual thing where by giving the book negative publicity they're entitled to ask for the advance back or something? In which case, the publishers are evil. Otherwise, I just can't comprehend why you would make such a strong stand and then pretend nothing happened.

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:20 (six years ago) link

abusive author-publisher relationship :(

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:22 (six years ago) link

The Jezebel review: http://jezebel.com/alisa-valdes/

The New York Post is harsh: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/books/taming_of_the_shrewd_4mC0IDcGGPNlKquCYVz15O

What about those feminist ideals she once so highly prized?

“Freedom would never come from trying to force men to be women and women to be men, as so many radical feminists seemed to believe it would. Freedom came when I connected to this ancestral feminine womanhood that I carried in my DNA and stopped feeling guilty for all that it spoke me.”

In return, he offered her this: “Never thought I’d say this about you, but you might make a handy little ranch wife someday.”

The cynical among us might say that this all sounds too good — or too absurd — to be true.

The bestseller list is chock-full of books on “traditional values.” Perhaps this is her way back into the bestseller club that might no longer want her as a member?

Valdes admits that despite receiving a reported $400,000 advance for “Dirty Girls Social Club,” she is flat broke and nearly homeless. Her Lexus had been repossessed and her half-million-dollar home was short-sold.

“I had badly mismanaged my promising literary career a few years before, by being a woman without proper boundaries, an angry woman and self-destructive on a grand scale,” she writes.

Is this her mea culpa? Or is it merely link bait, a calculated bid to drum up controversy and a way to ensure a coveted talking-head spot in the media?

Either way, she might have some trouble with the marketing.

This October she wrote a blog post called “Saying Goodbye to the Cowboy.” In it — and probably despite her publisher’s hesitations — she writes about their breakup.

The cowboy’s last words to his feminist lover are downright brutal: “Stop. It’s over. This isn’t your home. It will never be your home. I don’t want you. Goodbye, Alisa.”

She followed up with few harsh tweets about her former paramour: “Things he now says he didn’t like about me? My ethnicity (!), my friends, my son (!), my parents, my tweeting unflattering truths like this.”

Valdes might be down — but she’s not out of the game just yet.

She’s started yet another blog devoted to love letters sent between her and a much younger writer, 29-year-old Michael Gandy, a fellow bleeding heart and founder of the nonprofit organization The Benevolence Community.

Do we smell a sequel?

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:25 (six years ago) link

^ The New York Post review was written before her now deleted post went up

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:27 (six years ago) link

It appears to be published by a Penguin offshoot. I'd hope the request was made for legal reasons and not for evil ones but it's difficult to tell sometimes.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:36 (six years ago) link

I don't think you have to look very hard to find legal issues that a publisher would want to protect/distance itself from in a blog post where the author accuses the man in the book she published with your company of rape and then posts a video of him.

I also don't think you can really divorce those legal reasons from the evil reasons.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:41 (six years ago) link

Well at least I know what one of our sister "big" houses is doing today--getting lots of emails from their CEO/publisher telling them not to talk to the press or offer any comment in a public place.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:42 (six years ago) link

I think the publisher is evil because they agreed to publish this in the first place.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:42 (six years ago) link

but agreed to publish this knowing how much?

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:43 (six years ago) link

The major difference I can see between this clusterfuck of a relationship and hundreds of thousands of similar clusterfucks is that one of the two people involved has written about it at great length and sold it to a publisher and founded a blog around it. The fact that she is a published author may carry a certain prestige, but it is no guarantee that she knows what she is doing, understands herself, or understands her lover. It only guarantees that she knows how to write declarative sentences.

I'm sorry her relationship with that cowboy turned out so horribly and his actions do not appear very creditable or kind, but I also can't say much in favor of her judgement, which seems to land her in an endless series of fuckups which she feels she must broadcast to the universe, first asserting then retracting many fundamental ideas with an equal passion and conviction of her rightness.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:43 (six years ago) link

well, I mean, yeah xp

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:44 (six years ago) link

That night they disagree on nearly every subject, but “that kiss was so flippin’ good that I didn’t want to risk not getting another one by, you know, arguing or making unreasonable demands.”

So she holds her tongue. And gets in bed with the cowboy. “Angels sang arias. The earth moved,” she waxes on.

After only one night, she’s seemed to undergo an entire political change of heart.

“Maybe I didn’t know that I thought I knew. Maybe the world wasn’t as simple as they made it seem on the Rachel Maddow show,” she says.

With him, she’s in heaven, finally “free” of the feminist dogma that had defined her.

“The dirty little secret of feminism, I suddenly understood, was that it could never go as far as it aimed to, because we were, all of us, fundamentally shackled to our own biology,” she writes. “Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution could not be erased in one bra-burning decade, just because Gloria Steinem or Alice Walker said so.”

Now the idea that women are capable of doing anything that men can do — one that defined her earlier career — is almost overnight damned as mere “craziness.”

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:49 (six years ago) link

In man that's called thinking with his prick.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:50 (six years ago) link

I have a lot of issues with serial memoirists, but this is just horrifying. And it'll probably only get worse when antifeminists pick up her book as a cause célèbre and ignore the context.

Ugh ugh ugh.

maura, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:51 (six years ago) link

i think it's interesting that the 'cowboy' is also an actor

just1n3, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:56 (six years ago) link

the whole situation, the handling of it...everything is really terrible

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:56 (six years ago) link

it'll probably only get worse when antifeminists pick up her book as a cause célèbre and ignore the context.

Or dismiss it as the crazy feminist being bitter and trying to get revenge for being dumped. The whole situation is really fucked up.

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:57 (six years ago) link

this whole thing is 10 kinds of fucked up - just from the excerpts available online, the relationship depicted in the memoir is clearly, unambiguously, abusive.

'the passion letters' are also super creepy and OTT

just1n3, Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:58 (six years ago) link

xxp Apparently per the radio interview some casting person was looking for a "cowboy, a real cowboy" type and kept asking around and ppl kept saying, "You've really got to meet {this guy}" and they did, and he got a bit part in something, and then more bit parts, etc, but when agents told him to move to LA to get more work he dissed them.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 19:58 (six years ago) link

Valdes insists that through her relationship with the cowboy she grew and learned to reject second wave feminism, and to instead embrace the feminine. In practice, though, her book is suffused with a visceral loathing for the feminine. It's just that this loathing is mostly directed at men. She repeatedly sneers at the guys she's dated for being "emasculated," or, in one memorable phrase, for being "sniveling little boys, with crow's feet and online-porn addiction." She says that the reason her first marriage broke up was that she was the bread-winner and she couldn't respect her husband for staying at home and cooking and cleaning. And finally, in a remarkable display of homophobia, she sneers at pop stars from Prince to David Bowie for not projecting a sufficiently normative vision of masculinity. " A tiny little man with no body hair, running around in fucking thigh-high stiletto heels, singing in the highest falsetto in the world about how you were a 'Little Red Corvette'? Are you fucking kidding me?" Thus, before her transformation, she was a ball-breaking second waver who spent a lot of time verbally castrating men—and after her transformation, she's a ball-breaking non-second-waver who spends a lot of time verbally castrating men. The difference just doesn't seem that profound.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:03 (six years ago) link

bam

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:04 (six years ago) link

obviously not reviewed by caitlin flanagan

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:09 (six years ago) link

Prince is the ultimate dude IMO

What kind of knuckle dragging heteronormativity do you have to buy into to deny this?

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:09 (six years ago) link

Her article in Huffpost last week: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alisa-valdesrodriguez/liberals-vs-conservatives_b_2397259.html

I was a city progressive who had managed to fall in love with a tall, stoic, smart yet very conservative cattle ranch manager from the rural part of my state. We were talking about maybe having my son meet him, and he was explaining to me his reasons for wanting my then 10-year-old to call him "Mr. Lane" and "sir."

"That's ridiculous," I told him. I had grown up with hippie academic parents on a college campus, calling all adults by their first names. "He's not used to having to do that. He should call you Steve."

"I don't care what he's used to," said Mr. Lane. "It's about respect."

So began our discussion about the meaning of "respect." To me, respect meant tolerance for differences. To Mr. Lane, it meant deference to authority. Same word. Totally different emotional meaning and reaction.

The more I listened, the more I understood that in spite of all the supposed "research" that says conservatives and liberals have brains that are wired differently (they, for "fear," we, for "shades of gray"), we might actually just be speaking different emotional languages with the same exact words.

I shared this idea with Mr. Lane, and watched his eyes light up as he understood.

"Well, I'll be damned," he said. "You might be on to something here."

It dawned on us both that day that we (and our sides) were much more alike than we were different, but that neither of us had ever taken the time to try to truly understand what the other side was saying in their own language. There weren't two kinds of brains out there, or two "kinds" of people, as our media would love for us all to believe in this most splintered time in American history. There were, rather, just... Americans... people who were all basically wired the same, who want the same basic things for themselves, their families and their communities, but for whom the same words and phrases symbolized something different. We simply could not connect because we were speaking different languages.

As the memoir I wrote about my love affair with this unlikeliest of partners for me hits shelves this week, The Feminist and the Cowboy: An Unlikely Love Story, I find people asking me how I was able to love a conservative cowboy for two years, given our enormous ideological differences. My answer is simple: Once Mr. Lane and I learned to speak to one another in each other's emotional languages, we got along great.

It's a lesson that I truly believe might be useful to our nation's leaders right now, too. Until we all learn to truly hear what the other is saying, I fear that we are all doomed to continue to misunderstand -- and by default loathe, mock and thwart -- one another.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:10 (six years ago) link

I am legit grossed out that she referred to him as Mr Lastname right there.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:11 (six years ago) link

I am pretty sure we figured this exact same thing out some time in high school

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:12 (six years ago) link

" A tiny little man with no body hair, running around in fucking thigh-high stiletto heels, singing in the highest falsetto in the world about how you were a 'Little Red Corvette'? Are you fucking kidding me?"

Nope.

http://culturepop.me/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/prince-extra-loveable-2011.gif

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:13 (six years ago) link

As the memoir I wrote about my love affair with this unlikeliest of partners for me hits shelves this week, The Feminist and the Cowboy: An Unlikely Love Story, I find people asking me how I was able to love a conservative cowboy for two years, given our enormous ideological differences. My answer is simple: Once Mr. Lane and I learned to speak to one another in each other's emotional languages, we got along great.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:13 (six years ago) link

once democrats let republicans have their way w/ them and don't leave the car until boehner opens the door for them our country will do much better

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:13 (six years ago) link

"Well, I'll be damned," he said. "You might be on to something here."

sometimes plain-spoken actually means "idiot"

christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:14 (six years ago) link

also in what universe does Prince have no body hair?

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p294/cozikitten/My%20Prince/Princeshirtless.jpg

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:14 (six years ago) link

flood her inbox with lovesexy promo pics

christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:15 (six years ago) link

"AH DON'T KNOW WHUT YOU JUST SAID"

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:16 (six years ago) link

(xp)

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:16 (six years ago) link

Veronica Saucedo @verosauce
@MizAlisa my friends and I can't get enough of your blog! And after today's post... We're buying the book. Love #love #neverblindagain
Retweeted by Alisa Valdes

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:17 (six years ago) link

No one has forced her to continue to support this sham of a book and that she continues to do so should tell you plenty about her character imo.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:18 (six years ago) link

sadly at this point i don't feel entirely certain accepting the full truth of anything in the book OR in the subsequently removed blog post

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:20 (six years ago) link

not that i DISbelieve any of the things she has said happened, which are all horrible, just, well, who knows wtf is going on here at this point

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:21 (six years ago) link

mordy and goole otm

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:21 (six years ago) link

No one has forced her to continue to support this sham of a book and that she continues to do so should tell you plenty about her character imo.

Excuse me?? I'm sure her publisher is doing exactly that: they paid her a huge advance ($400,000 iirc from an earlier link???) and she's almost certainly contractually committed to a tour or tours, a certain number of speaking appearances and author signings and discussion groups and on and on. And not to libel her publisher in print, probably, also. Legal departments usually object to that kind of thing.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:22 (six years ago) link

Her publisher is going to take her huge advance away if she doesn't retweet ppl's tweets? I doubt it.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:23 (six years ago) link

yeah i don't think i agree with mordy there either. we have no idea what her continuing support of this book means or what motivation is behind it.

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:24 (six years ago) link

She doesn't have to lie during interviews either. She can say "It was a tumultuous love affair that ended poorly," and withhold publisher-unfriendly details. She doesn't need to lie. There is no "you must lie" provision in her contract I am positive.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:25 (six years ago) link

It is mildly interesting how, in that HuffPo article, she casts herself as a heroine whose brilliant stroke of insight could lead to The Peaceable Kingdom among "our nation's leaders", and she gives every appearance of earnestly believing this scenario. This is more evidence, if any were needed, of the dismally low level of knowledge and experience required to set oneself up as a pundit and parade your ignorance about, garbed in bulletproof self-confidence.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:26 (six years ago) link

OR in the subsequently removed blog post

Extremely cheap yet effective viral marketing

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:26 (six years ago) link

^^^

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:26 (six years ago) link

There is a definitely a way to sell this book for her publisher without defending + praising her rapist. "I've learned a lot over the last few years," "I am not the same person who wrote this book," etc there are thousands of writer cliches that she could trot out to create some distance between herself and her material.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:27 (six years ago) link

garbed in bulletproof self-confidenceutter bullshit.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:27 (six years ago) link

They can certainly take her to court to pay it back if they determine she's crossed over some line of unhelpful or libelous or unsupportive, which after that blog post and all this mishegas that line is probably already somewhere behind her if we're being honest.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:28 (six years ago) link

Sorry, that's like xxxxxxxp somewhere, the phone rang.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:29 (six years ago) link

Guys, I think she really wants to sell this book. I don't think that's necessarily in conflict with the truthfulness of her now-deleted post. Because of people are fucked-up.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:29 (six years ago) link

I mean, would I have ever read her or bothered to spend one breath thinking or chatting about her w/o this? I don't know what her motivation(s) are, of course, but if it is a stunt, a cynical and ultimately malevolent stunt, it has most certainly worked.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:30 (six years ago) link

the fact that, as i said, i "don't feel entirely certain accepting the full truth of anything", also means i'm not comfortable outright calling her a liar either.

i really wish someone out there would ask about the substance of her publisher's demands and follow up about the content of her blog post.

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:30 (six years ago) link

If the publishers were smart they'd have her write a new forward about what has happened since she wrote the book and market the fuck out of the new narrative.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:30 (six years ago) link

yeah goole FYI I'm not arguing w/ u

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:31 (six years ago) link

The curious thing is that half of her redacted post is about how her publishers are a bunch or jerks. This could mean a lot of things to us encyclopedia browns.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:32 (six years ago) link

http://www.afterellen.com/2009/2/visibility-matters

estela, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:34 (six years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNjX3tQMygk

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:34 (six years ago) link

Hmm, methinks she's an immensely manipulative fabulist with a handy capacity to believe whatever bullshit she happens to be peddling.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:38 (six years ago) link

Either that or I am just blinded with loathing for her highlights in that afterellen photo.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:39 (six years ago) link

Um, yeah. I don't think this is helpful, guys. You're basically parading around a bunch of ad hominem crap in light of the fact that an alleged victim of serious abuse is not comporting herself *properly* in your own little worldview. There is a bunch of stuff none of us know about this story, and it would behoove you not to behave like utter utter wankers about it.

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:44 (six years ago) link

emil.y otm

there's more to this and anyone posting itt surely knows that

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:48 (six years ago) link

ppl who have suffered from abuse are likely not to act as predictably as others, so who knows really.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:49 (six years ago) link

Thanks for the links, estella. xposts

We don't need to make any judgments about her claims of abuse to call bullshit on her and her publisher for bringing this opportunistic, anti-feminist memoir to market.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:55 (six years ago) link

it's hard to believe this story of abuse, given how often this woman has opportunistically mined for attention by claiming membership to various vulnerable or minority groups.

just1n3, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:57 (six years ago) link

Honestly I don't know which is worse - if she made up the abuse on the blog post to get some cheap, exploitive publicity or if she didn't make them up and is pushing this book despite knowing now that it's a narrative in which she defends an abusive rapist.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:57 (six years ago) link

i hope it's not too lighthearted at this point to say i hope that her gallagher takedown was true

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 20:59 (six years ago) link

xp Hey now, easy on the publishing house/imprint. Only university presses and indie issue-specific companies can afford to only publish books by liberal people with liberal credentials who only like 20% of America has ever heard of.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:00 (six years ago) link

Fine, coddle her emil.y. Did you read that afterellen piece? Maybe I'm an utter, utter wanker, but I smell narcissist rat, desperate for attention (publicity, whatever). I really do. If you claim to have squared some imaginary circle about feminists and thuggish cowboys and write a book about it and it's finally going to be published and then post that you were raped by your cowboy beau and then make that claim disappear and then, when confronted about said disappearance, say your publicist said to take it down and by the way my present boyfriend wrote and said, "Thanks for taming my shrew!" to your putative rapist and you want me to be more circumspect about ad-feminem wankiness when I feel like pulling my hair out and bewailing humanity even more than I did this morning, I apparently just don't get it.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:00 (six years ago) link

Honestly I don't know which is worse - if she made up the abuse on the blog post to get some cheap, exploitive publicity or if she didn't make them up and is pushing this book despite knowing now that it's a narrative in which she defends an abusive rapist.

Yes, if only there was any other possibility between those two extremes.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:01 (six years ago) link

It's hard for me to imagine that any self-respecting publisher, especially not an arm of a giant like penguin, would want to silence accusations of rape and try to preserve a sham narrative about a memoir all so it didn't have to eat a whopping $400,000 advance (which, let's face it, they are not going to get back from her even if they spend the money to take her to court)

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:04 (six years ago) link

Orbit, what would be one of those possibilites? I honestly cannot see how she could publish this w/o amendment at the very least if she stands by the rape charge.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:06 (six years ago) link

If she doesn't stand by the abuse/rape charge, it's despicable that she made it.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:09 (six years ago) link

the worst case, in my view, might be what's happening: it's possible that the cowboy was an abusive rapist, but valdes really does now believe all that crap about women being happier submitting to a real man, despite that.

but in general i don't like filling in with speculation what nobody has yet found out by asking.

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:10 (six years ago) link

Well first of all the release date was January 3 so the text has probably been final since sometime in November at the very least. And most of the first printing qty is probably already sold to distributors and amazon.com and bookstores and so on.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:11 (six years ago) link

I mean it's out there, they can't get it back (except by a massively expensive recall which could happen I guess but is maybe a long shot).

I haven't seen where Valdes isn't "standing by" the rape allegations, there could be LOTS of reasons to take that post down. Has she issued some kind of 100% retraction of everything in it that I haven't noticed?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:12 (six years ago) link

I guess the publisher could think "WE HAVE TO COVER THIS UP SO WE CAN SELL BOOKS" but it's hard for me to believe that the publisher would think that way, not least because it would be stupid of them. I'd think it'd make much more sense to get out in front of this and cut losses. But only after figuring out for sure what the heck is going on. So I don't see "please take this blog post down" as particularly nefarious under the circumstances.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:13 (six years ago) link

no, which is why the lack of follow-up is so maddening

but it appears that only our little corner of the internet seems to give a rat's

xp

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:14 (six years ago) link

Also: It will not be up to the author whether to recall or scrap or amend the books, most likely--that will be up to the publisher.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:14 (six years ago) link

I guess the publisher could think "WE HAVE TO COVER THIS UP SO WE CAN SELL BOOKS" but it's hard for me to believe that the publisher would think that way, not least because it would be stupid of them.

I'm sorry, what country do you think you live in?????

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:14 (six years ago) link

this is the most believable/least surprising portion of this whole thing; institutions react to bad new by attempting to bury it

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:16 (six years ago) link

xxxxp

emil.y, if we say that this woman's words and actions throw her into a very poor light, entirely apart from whether what she said about the man is true or false or somewhere in between, then we are only pointing out the obvious. Trying to justify her known words and actions, based on some hypothetical set of facts about which we know nothing, is an interesting thought, but a rather insubstantial one.

I'd ask you to notice that 98% of the story that we know so far has been completely under her control and put before us by her choice. So, it is not accidental that she became the subject of our discussion. If we have been misled about her, she must bear some responsibility for that.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:16 (six years ago) link

DJP otm, for pete's sake, don't you think that's why we all have legal departments?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:17 (six years ago) link

If she had brought this to their attention earlier I would think they'd rather scrap the book than have a scandal waiting to happen. Publishers like this publish a lot of friggin books - they're not going to be so attached to a single one (which, incidentally, did not exactly debut on the bestseller list it turns out) that they'd take that kind of risk.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:19 (six years ago) link

she doesn't actually accuse him of rape - although it's clearly implied in her description of the situation

just1n3, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:20 (six years ago) link

For what it's worth (per goole's comment) we aren't the only ones to be talking about this:

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/01/the-real-cowboy-the-real-feminist/267053/

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:21 (six years ago) link

Her Gallagher takedown: http://kenlevine.blogspot.com/2008/03/gallagher-es-muy-mala.html

Hmm. How to put this delicately? We'll simplify: Mime-like, stringy-haired man in black hat smashes food with mallet on stage for living. Man, who no espeakey no Spanish, hears Spanish, thinks Spanish good, Spanish muy muy dinero. Man spends one month learning important Spanish words such as cerveza, caca and culo (butt). Man invents Spanish words, such as "sperm-o" and "embarazamante." Man decides this is enough Spanish to put on show for Latinos. Man smashes pinatas, wears giant sombrero and shakes keg-sized maracas. Man mocks Jews and gays and women and constipated old people. Man thinks he is muy funny comedian-o.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:21 (six years ago) link

"There was the time we had an argument, the time I dared to challenge him and insist that I was right about something, when he, furious with me and so much bigger than me, simply dragged me down the hall to the bedroom, bent me over, and took me, telling me as he did so that I must never forget who was in charge, that I must learn to be nicer, that I must learn…to obey."

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:21 (six years ago) link

she doesn't use the r-word, but that is a rape accusation plain as day

goole, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:23 (six years ago) link

Ned published the link yesterday afternoon. It was gone by the time I ambled along to see it early this morning. I don't find it hard at all to believe that the publishing house crossed their fingers and hoped that 10 or 15 hours of internet exposure might be salvageable. What I find truly odd is the timing of her post given that she could have torpedoed the book some time back before it went to the printers, if she had misgivings but now that it's out or almost out (unsure about the exact timing here) she's thrown a massive wrench into the book's very reason for being.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:24 (six years ago) link

I don't think Valdes' post really changes my reading of the book—though it does make that reading significantly more depressing. The fact that the abused often identify with their abusers isn't news, of course. Judith Herman and Lisa Hirschman in Father-Daughter Incest (one of those second-wave feminist treatises Valdes says she's moved beyond) talk about how victims of incest often admire the "competence and power" of their fathers. The identification is part of the abuse—and, of course, enables it.

In comments on her post, Valdes insists that she still rejects the feminist ideology that prevented her from trusting men. She insists she still stands by her claim that "feminism stole my womanhood."

As I admitted in my review, there is something to the argument that feminism doesn't sufficiently respect femininity. But...good lord. Surely the answer to that is not abusive relationship as growth experience. Valdes's stereotype of feminism may not be right that all men can't be trusted, but clearly this asshole shouldn't have been. Can't there be some kind of reconciliation between feminism and femininity that doesn't involve women being terrorized by controlling, violent cowboys?

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:25 (six years ago) link

careful guys, some of you are coming pretty close to sounding like men's rights activists, i mean do you really have to bring up the spectre of the false or opportunistic rape allegations to make your point

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:26 (six years ago) link

the situation is fucked up for certain but nobody here has all of the facts so maybe stop being gross

just let the disappointing human frailty and misery wash over you, shit is fucked up and always will be

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:29 (six years ago) link

I have no opinion on whether she is making a false accusation or not but it's kind of fucked up that objecting to the idea of a false accusation of rape automatically makes you a men's rights activist

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:33 (six years ago) link

like, you should be able to voice the opinion that a specific person may not be trustworthy without being painted as a woman-hating dick

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:34 (six years ago) link

just let the disappointing human frailty and misery wash over you

solitary posts that effortlessly sum up etc

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:36 (six years ago) link

I think the accusation of rape is generally accepted here as well within believability, but that Valdes's actions make it difficult to see much integrity in her handling of... the whole situation. The most charitable explanantion is that she is extremely confused and that her confusion inevitably leads us all into a similar confusion about her motives. All we can do is point to the multitude of contradictions that are painfully apparent around her behavior. She is the only one who could possibly clear them up.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:37 (six years ago) link

There's a lot of anger at the author as a person and a comment about her appearance and way too much animosity coming to the surface from some ppl itt. Gotta tell you, it makes me really uncomfortable about continuing to talk about it (more than I already was/am from the sheer distastefulness of the whole spectacle).

I don't want to make any judgments about Valdes. Her level of objective accuracy doesn't concern me w/r/t each individual event depicted, if she used the "r-word," if she writes over-dramatically by my estimation, if I would want to be besties irl, because to me the absolute most convincing parts are the most banal:

I was so beaten down by then, from the constant daily criticisms, from the constant erosion of my self esteem, that I just took it, and wept, and apologized, and promised to do better. I did not think I would become someone like that. And there was a part of me hidden away inside, kept safe, that watched it all and waited for my chance to escape…

when I tried to say I was sorry, when I tried to stop the inevitable stonewalling, he glared, called me a mouthy cunt, told me to get to my side of the bed and not touch him, told me that he couldn’t stand the sight of me, told me that if I really wanted to impress him then I’d be a good girl and just shut the fuck up, and his finger poking me in the chest, and then wagged in my face, telling me that my biggest problem, the reason he would never marry me after all, was that I was a woman who just didn’t know when to shut the fuck up, shut the fuck up, and me saying I would, that I would be quiet, and turning my back to him so he wouldn’t hear me cry, and him feeling the bed shake anyway and yelling at me that I was pathetic, that if I wanted him to stay then I better stop fucking crying, and me running into my closet with my phone to fall in a heap on the floor and text myself so that in the morning I’d remember that this was NOT okay, that this was NOT love, and him pretending the next morning that nothing had happened.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:37 (six years ago) link

I don't get the impression that anyone in this thread is angry. I'm certainly not angry.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:40 (six years ago) link

You may be projecting a little bit.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:40 (six years ago) link

Very interesting -- so that Atlantic article I linked? She's RT'd the announcement of it and replied:

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa

@hoodedu I find this piece very even-handed, compassionate, and spot-on, and suppose that will get me sued or something.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:41 (six years ago) link

and a comment about her appearance

Alright, despite my disliking her highlights that was merely a lame attempt at levity and if she wants to call me a mincing, fasetto-voiced sheep fucker, I'll take it in good stride.

All I can say, is that if my guy called me a mouthy cunt, they would pretty much be the last two words I ever heard from him.

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:42 (six years ago) link

Addendum: Because Valdes wants us to accept her book as full of insight, beauty and wisdom about how women should think and act toward men, this obviously tortured clustefuck pretty well discredits any pretensions she had about that, which at the very least means the book is full of crap.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:42 (six years ago) link

Man, what if goole's worst scenario is true?! *Sigh*

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:43 (six years ago) link

Final addendum, I would hope.

Perhaps, as several here have said, we ought not judge her, but it is fairly clear to me that she had no problem judging feminists and feminism and stating those judgements in clear, harsh, outspoken terms. So, if we choose not to repay her in kind, it is a courtesy she was disinclined to extend to others.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:53 (six years ago) link

All I can say, is that if my guy called me a mouthy cunt, they would pretty much be the last two words I ever heard from him.

It's pretty easy to say what you would do in an abusive situation until you're in one. I'm not comfortable making judgements on what I would or wouldn't do.

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:54 (six years ago) link

I don't know this lady or know that she was someone I would have found convincing BEFORE the cowboy incident, but being abused changes you even if you thought you were done becoming yourself or defining yourself or w/e. Even if you like to think that who you are is done now, that you have a firm basic nature that can't be swayed...it can. And it takes a while to dig out afterwards. You're not, like, cured from the time you decide to walk away.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:55 (six years ago) link

Oh boy the part of the ilx clusterfuck where make judgment call on other ilxors, awesome.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:56 (six years ago) link

I blame Ned for invoking it in the thread title

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 21:59 (six years ago) link

(Aimless painstakingly divides a lump of blame into a myriad of tiny bits, so they can be correctly apportioned to the proper recipients)

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:01 (six years ago) link

I don't get the impression that anyone in this thread is angry. I'm certainly not angry.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:40 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm fucking furious, to be perfectly honest. The vast majority of you are making me feel pretty disgusted.

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:02 (six years ago) link

Sorry that post of mine wasn't particularly helpful and definitely not needed, just, get sick of when these threads turn into ilxors sniping at each other (no matter how obliquely). I think we can all just agree that this is incredibly fucked up and that I guess be grateful that, no matter where things go now, she's out of that relationship.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:02 (six years ago) link

I'm trying to stay emotionally disengaged and I don't have the energy to get into this today, maybe try another crack about how I'm projecting tomorrow and see if I'm up for it then.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:05 (six years ago) link

Why wait until tomorrow?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:06 (six years ago) link

I just assume that her claims of abuse are true. What she went through with that guy was horrible.

Before she went through this, she told an LGBT publication, via email, that she was bisexual, made the claim in her blog and on Wikipedia that they got it wrong, impugning their credibility, implied they were bigoted against her because she was straight, claimed that the LGBT community was out to get her, and then in another blog post claimed that she *was* bisexual, but that she was in physical danger from right-wing Cubans who wanted to kill her because this LGBT publication published that she was bisexual. She subsequently deleted that post.

Then she wrote this anti-feminist book.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:07 (six years ago) link

http://i.imgur.com/nPPgO.gif

christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:08 (six years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im8Z34fUuuY

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:09 (six years ago) link

Mordy, do you even have a point here or are you just trying to be an ass?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:13 (six years ago) link

For the record I don't need to try to be an ass. I need to try not to be an ass.

Seriously, though, maybe ppl who find this kind of thing triggering should walk away from the conversation rather than demand all the angry posters just stop talking about it.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:15 (six years ago) link

welp

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:16 (six years ago) link

How dare we discuss the post that this author posted on her public blog and the book that this author published with a publishing house! Who the fuck do we think we are?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

god forbid any restraint or tact be exercised

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

I think we can all agree that this has gone from literary to literal.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:18 (six years ago) link

Hmm, lovely, now we've got John Podhoretz and James Taranto spreading the word among others.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:19 (six years ago) link

As far as I'm aware, nobody has asked people to stop talking about it. I personally have said stop talking about it like a bunch of fucking poisonous cuntstains who I would happily see dangling from a tree by their frenulums, but I haven't told anyone to stop talking about it.

Maybe you should work harder on that trying not to be an ass thing.

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:20 (six years ago) link

Welp, level "cuntstains" attained. Well done ilx.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:21 (six years ago) link

Give me a break, emil.y. What was the most fucking poisonous cuntstain thing I said on this thread? That if it turned out he was an abusive rapist maybe she shouldn't be promoting this book in interviews as a love story?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:23 (six years ago) link

As usual the self-righteous outrage eclipses anything that was actually said. Was it when Michael criticized the highlights in her hair? Was that when everyone became poisonous cuntstains?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:24 (six years ago) link

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:24 (six years ago) link

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:25 (six years ago) link

That if it turned out he was an abusive rapist maybe she shouldn't be promoting this book in interviews as a love story?

This part indicates that you're glossing over quite a bit about how she is choosing to promote this.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:27 (six years ago) link

Like saying on the radio that the cowboy "tamed the shrew" for her new boyfriend?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:28 (six years ago) link

So far they've agreed that cowboys are hot and alpha-male behavior is understandably attractive to women because evolution. So this is definitely a good use of my time.

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:36 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh okay now she's saying her new boyfriend wrote the cowboy a thank-you letter for having tamed the shrew. Verbatim, btw. We're done here.

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, January 10, 2013 12:40 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:29 (six years ago) link

brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:29 (six years ago) link

hahaha you mean you missed that part of the thread. no worries dude, go start a race war somewhere.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:30 (six years ago) link

is it possible for you to disagree with someone without making a needlessly provocative personal jab?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:31 (six years ago) link

yes, obviously. 99% of my posts disagree w/ someone without making a needlessly provocative personal jab.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:31 (six years ago) link

like that one ^

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:31 (six years ago) link

you might want to consider exercising that restraint here because right now you just look like a total dick

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:32 (six years ago) link

and, since I know you are NOT a total dick, it's disheartening

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:32 (six years ago) link

dangling from a tree by their frenulums

Colorful image. Thanks for injecting something very similar to what you say you deplore itt. Bye!

Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:33 (six years ago) link

Mordy, your argument about how she is promoting this is really oversimplified and conveniently ignores a lot of levels here. But clearly given your last post direct towards me, I no longer need to respect you or take a single thing you ever type seriously again.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:35 (six years ago) link

Hey jon, if you want to make an argument that anyone takes 'seriously' why don't you actually make your argument. What am I oversimplifying? What levels am I ignoring?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:36 (six years ago) link

I understand. $400,000.00 is a lot of money to give back to your publisher, especially in the current publishing industry. Is that the subtlety I have failed to acknowledge?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:36 (six years ago) link

It seems obvious to me that she was threatened by her publisher and that is drastically affecting the tack she is taking in promoting this book, let alone anything that got bent in her worldview as a result of going through this relationship.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:37 (six years ago) link

So, it seems we are all talking about a woman who was most likely victimized and abused, who went on to say and do some pretty spectacularly foolish and inappropriate things in regard to her abuse and her abuser. Ilxors, to best of my reading, have mostly been saying that those spectacularly foolish and inappropriate things appear to be both foolish and inappropriate.

This is not to say the poor woman wasn't abused or she was not a victim, but only that it is highly inadvisable at this point to take all those foolish and inappropriate things at the face value that she placed upon them when she said them, wrote them, or did them. And it looks like she is continuing to sell her book based on the idea that it ought to be taken at face value. Which is wrongheaded at best.

imo, there is nothing wrong with saying this. even if it makes a few ilxors angry., because they think this is the same as taunting or ridiculing a victim of abuse for being a victim of abuse. it is more like trying to divide the wheat from the chaff. God knows there is enough chaff in all this to keep us well occupied.

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:37 (six years ago) link

DJP OTM

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:38 (six years ago) link

Fwiw I said I thought the interview sucked partly b/c of the interviewer, which I can expand on: I thought the intviewer/radio show host led Valdes to some of those unsavory places where she said those things...and all through it I thought Valdes was giggly and light and insubstantial-sounding, and seemed eager to please, that she could be led to agree and to tailor her story to meet with the approval of the host and/or her presumed listeners (being fans of the host's regular show). We know that she DID tailor it because, like I also already posted, she put a different slant on some objectionable things for the radio show than she had in her writing.

The eager to please and agreeable part, like I said I didn't know anything about her BEFORE this, but you don't just get over that when it's been your survival mechanism for some time. I'm okay with just calling this sad and wishing her a healthier life in the future.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:38 (six years ago) link

Like I said above, there is a space between completely declaiming the material and apologizing for it. She doesn't have to repudiate all of it. She also doesn't have to talk about how women are naturally attracted to dominant alpha men during her book promo. There are other ways to promote this material. xxp

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:38 (six years ago) link

I'm not going to bother to respond anything more than that to you Mordy, you're a bully and an asshole who deserves zero respect or time.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:38 (six years ago) link

imho the issue at hand is not whether we are able to determine some objective history of events here (because we obviously won't), MY concern is that this story doesn't get flattened into "crazy woman is crazy and falsely accuses rape because she wants attention" even though that has been lightly suggested itt and is already making headway into coservative blogs

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:39 (six years ago) link

cry me a river, jon.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:39 (six years ago) link

Mordy, I wasn't particularly singling you out in my remark, but the problem with you is mostly one of tonality, constant devil's advocate playing about stuff you don't even care about, a misguided belief that you actually have any handle on philosophical logic, and utterly below-the-belt shit like "why wait until tomorrow?" to a clearly exasperated in orbit. And you always have to get the last word, no matter how fucking stupid, pointless or childish.

M White, where on earth did I say I deplored hanging people by their frenulums? Why, I hear tell that it is a most invigorating experience. Pip pip!

emil.y, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:40 (six years ago) link

My misguided belief that I actually have any handle on philosophical logic?? Now you've cut me to the core.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:41 (six years ago) link

Mordy, just go the fuck away. You are a worthless poster.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:41 (six years ago) link

Yeah, elmo, I was thinking that, too--the word "crazy" is already being pointedly used in that special way, which is always extra-special gross.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:41 (six years ago) link

I've been watching this discussion unfold, and it all feels so familiar.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:42 (six years ago) link

Fwiw I said I thought the interview sucked partly b/c of the interviewer, which I can expand on: I thought the intviewer/radio show host led Valdes to some of those unsavory places where she said those things...and all through it I thought Valdes was giggly and light and insubstantial-sounding, and seemed eager to please, that she could be led to agree and to tailor her story to meet with the approval of the host and/or her presumed listeners (being fans of the host's regular show). We know that she DID tailor it because, like I also already posted, she put a different slant on some objectionable things for the radio show than she had in her writing.

The eager to please and agreeable part, like I said I didn't know anything about her BEFORE this, but you don't just get over that when it's been your survival mechanism for some time. I'm okay with just calling this sad and wishing her a healthier life in the future.

I think the thing that's troubling is that the "tailoring the message to the perceived audience" thing came up in the AfterEllen interaction as well, making it semi-difficult to tell as an outsider just hearing about her now if this is something she just does or if this is an expression of a coping mechanism she learned in this abusive relationship, or even worse if she has been in abusive relationships her entire life and this is just the first one she's written about.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:42 (six years ago) link

Hey Jon, how about I leave after you make good on one of your a thousand threats to quit ilx?

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:42 (six years ago) link

Shut up. You turned this into a needless personal attack.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:44 (six years ago) link

Did I? I seem to remember reading this before I said anything personal:

"brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster."

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:44 (six years ago) link

I guess it's different when you're the one dishing it.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:45 (six years ago) link

you know you two could do this with baseball bats irl, it would be so much more fun to watch

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:45 (six years ago) link

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:46 (six years ago) link

I didn't bring up an entirely unrelated argument that has already been hashed over months ago to bring it out of the context of the thread though.

xpost

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:46 (six years ago) link

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:47 (six years ago) link

Oh okay. So you have an excuse for being the first person to write something unrelated and nasty. xp

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:47 (six years ago) link

Oh stop being so disingenuous, you knew what you were doing with the "race war" comment.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:48 (six years ago) link

I was going to say that the women posting itt are otm and some people disagreeing with them have come disappointingly close to accusing them of being shrill, hysterical and manipulative for not immediately condemning this clearly shrill, hysterical and manipulative woman, but we may be done with discussing now various nuclear options have been taken

PS I will agree that this book as originally envisaged by the author and publisher sounds completely horrible, and it's depressing that both of them are fixed in a charade of pretending nothing has changed since that, and of course there are many possible reasons why that might be and ways to apportion blame for it (all of which remain depressing)

xxxp in orbit otm again

a panda, Malmö (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:49 (six years ago) link

Jon, as far as I can tell, you jumped into this clusterfuck to score some easy points against me and then tried to back out quickly before anyone noticed. I suspect this is your MO in general. Saying nasty things and then getting hurt when people respond to them.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:49 (six years ago) link

Dude, nothing I said was "nasty", I just said you were being very frustrating itt.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:50 (six years ago) link

hi

♨ (am0n), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:50 (six years ago) link

You didn't give any reason for that. You just said that banging your head against a wall is more productive than talking to me without actually responding to anything I actually said. xp

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:50 (six years ago) link

Would you two mind creating your own "Mordy and Jon Wuv Each Other Very Much" thread, please?

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, January 10, 2013 2:46 PM (3 minutes ago)

Aimless, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:51 (six years ago) link

omg seriously can you both just stop

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:51 (six years ago) link

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You still haven't answered this btw. You've just decided to make this about a perceived injury to yourself, maybe bc you can't answer my question.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:51 (six years ago) link

Sitting in a tree.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:52 (six years ago) link

K

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:52 (six years ago) link

I

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:52 (six years ago) link

S

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:52 (six years ago) link

etc

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:52 (six years ago) link

What if everyone just got up and went for a nice walk

pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:52 (six years ago) link

No, I won't stop. I'm sick of everyone just hushing up when ilxors start bullying each other. Mordy pulled out an obviously inflammatory comment to provoke me that had nothing to do with this thread. I'm sick of that treatment. I did nothing to deserve that kind of personal attack.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:53 (six years ago) link

It might even be kind of telling to see to what extent the rape aspect is fastened on as being the real or most substantial or most damning part of the story? It was abuse of several kinds that went on for a long time, it's not like the fact that he didn't wait for her to consent to sex is better or worse than not waiting for her to consent to having every facet of her action and personality micro-managed by breaking her down until she was nothing.

Focusing on his being a rapist or her story being primarily an allegation of rape puts her sexuality ahead of her person-hood imo and is not a good place for anyone to be hastening toward.

I think, for a lot of people, there is a hierarchy of cruelty:

mental abuse < physical abuse < sexual abuse

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:53 (six years ago) link

Yes, you do. You say mean things and then try to cute your way out of them. Why don't you stand up for what you wrote? xp

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:53 (six years ago) link

first comes love

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:56 (six years ago) link

then comes marriage

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:56 (six years ago) link

...

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:56 (six years ago) link

'poisonous cuntstain' is the name of my dog

mookieproof, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:57 (six years ago) link

You guys should relax. Jon and I are both adults posting on a message board. No one is threatening harm. We are having a discussion. If he or I decide that we don't like the conversation we can stop it at any time.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:57 (six years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0Fpl67p5qk

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:58 (six years ago) link

"adults"

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:58 (six years ago) link

My "DJP OTM" comment was intended to convey that he effectively summarized what I was trying to say. If you were actually trying to engage in a real debate with me, I'd bother to address your comments. But as soon as you threw your "race war" comment out, you immediately revealed yourself as a bully with no actual interest in the topic at hand. You're not worthy of my time nor respect and I'm disappointed in myself for engaging with you even this far. I'm going to flat out ignore every single one of your posts on any thread from now on, unless you feel like issuing an apology for your "race war" comment. You knew that was a sensitive issue for me that has already been beaten to death, you brought it up solely to provoke me with no real intention of fostering a legitimate discussion.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:58 (six years ago) link

I assume we are at the very most both above bar mitzvah age. xp

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:59 (six years ago) link

best new rolling thread

buzza, Thursday, 10 January 2013 22:59 (six years ago) link

I apologize for my race war comment. Now jon, would you like to respond to my question before 'race war' ever came up? I'll remind you:

Mordy, dude, you obviously haven't read all the articles Ned has helpfully provided if that's your cursory take.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:24 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I read the article about her lying about her bisexuality and her bipolar disorders, threatening wiki w/ lawsuits, I read her blog post in full, I read the slate book review of her book, and a few other book reviews. Which link in particular do you feel I missed?

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:25 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

brb, gonna go back my head against a wall now. more productive and fulfilling than trying to continue discussing this with you. also, to try to just extricate myself from this cluster.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:29 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:00 (six years ago) link

ned i love you for that youtube

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:00 (six years ago) link

Like, if you polled a bunch of people and asked them "order these people from best to worst", I would expect someone who said cruel things to come out better than someone who beats people up, and someone who inflicts sexual violence on others would be deemed the absolute worst; I don't know that it has anything to do with the personhood of the victim as much as it has to do with the perceived level of inhumanity necessary to commit the act. Practically everyone has said mean shit about other people and a lot of people have gotten into a physical altercation but I think a lot of people would balk at self-identifying with a rapist.

I don't dismiss your argument out of hand, though; it's kind of weird to not really consider the victim of the attack in this.

True, and only the victim of this particular narrative could speak for herself in this. But I believe that being an abuser who keeps someone around as an emotional punching bag, who digs down for the things that are most foundational to that person's sense of self and then pressures them with digs and criticism sessions and withholding affection and giving affection but only for a price and all kinds of cruel manipulation, to deform them until they're willing to give up whatever they love either to win some kind of love from you or just to make you stop. And all of this effort on your part is just to see if you can make them do it, like as a TEST? That is fundamentally different than saying mean stuff about someone.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:00 (six years ago) link

Sorry, that long sentence didn't arrive where it was supposed to, but I think you can figure it out.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:00 (six years ago) link

You guys should relax. Jon and I are both idiots posting on a message board. No one wants to read our posts. We are having a shitfit. If he or I decide that we don't like the thread we can derail it at any time.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 5:57 PM

♨ (am0n), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:01 (six years ago) link

Oh no, this poor thread being derailed.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:01 (six years ago) link

True, and only the victim of this particular narrative could speak for herself in this. But I believe that being an abuser who keeps someone around as an emotional punching bag, who digs down for the things that are most foundational to that person's sense of self and then pressures them with digs and criticism sessions and withholding affection and giving affection but only for a price and all kinds of cruel manipulation, to deform them until they're willing to give up whatever they love either to win some kind of love from you or just to make you stop. And all of this effort on your part is just to see if you can make them do it, like as a TEST? That is fundamentally different than saying mean stuff about someone.

I agree completely but I don't think that's a perspective one is going to arrive at unprompted without having experienced that in a situation they felt they couldn't escape, such as a romantic relationship or sibling/parental abuse. It's one of the reasons why "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" is such a popular little saying.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:03 (six years ago) link

Defining verbal abuse as saying mean things is sort of like...it's basically the same as defining rape as just wanting to have sex with someone? Or something. I don't know. But it leaves the POWER aspect out, and since power is the whole point, you can't accurately describe the abusive behavior without it.

I'm grateful that we can now have to a public conversation about rape that in general acknowledges that it's not a crime of sex but one of power/dominance. That is a more accurate direction to go in, better for identifying contributing factors, better for prevention, better for diagnosing the social ill, etc. Verbal and emotional abuse have exactly that same quality, and we should be having that kind of conversation about them as well.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:08 (six years ago) link

Okay now my head is spinning a bit even more because NOW she's deleted the tweet (and FB post) explaining why she deleted the blogpost.

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:11 (six years ago) link

xp: Again, I agree; what I am trying to say is that it is easier for an external onlooker to disassociate the power aspect from verbal abuse than it is to disassociate it from physical or sexual abuse, largely because there is an overt, tangible expression of that power in the form of physical violence, and I believe that impacts the "seriousness" for lack of a better word that people in general impart to verbal abuse. It's part of why people get so cruel in comment sections or on messageboards, or why some people really don't believe some forms of bullying are a serious problem.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:12 (six years ago) link

I know, we agree! :) But like I said, it is interesting to see who picks up on that aspect and who sticks RAPE right up at the top of the pile of problems with just everything about this situation.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:14 (six years ago) link

I get the three different levels thing but to read about that level of sustained and premeditated emotional abuse going on for so long and then go "whoa we should totally not assume that any sexual abuse happened just because this woman said so" like the former was just fine (both for the guy to have done and for the reader to take at face value, if you really feel the latter claim must be protested) but it's some kind of crazy leap between the two... that seems weird and uncomfortable.

xps sorry, just wandering in late and agreeing with everyone while sounding like I disagree

a panda, Malmö (a passing spacecadet), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:16 (six years ago) link

I think it's pretty obvious right now that her publisher is putting mad pressure on her not to put out anything negative about this book.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:19 (six years ago) link

the thing that was so chilling to me about her situation was his insistence on keeping her away from her family and her son --- that motivation comes from such an infuriatingly weak ego, and yet it creates a space for so much more power to be wielded once that's achieved. I mean, I've heard stories from friends over the years and when that is part of the narrative, you know that it's going to get really bad, really quickly from that point onwards. divide and conquer, etc.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:20 (six years ago) link

What I am having most trouble with is the fact that she obviously has, at best, severe misgivings about both this relationship in particular and the type of relationship it represents more generally -- and yet she is still gamely going out promoting this book that presents this relationship and this type of relationship as something revelatory and fulfilling. From all the reviews it sounds like she's being prescriptive -- ladies, you need a cowboy! -- but she has acknowledged that what she's prescribing is unhealthy and maybe dangerous. That's not just dishonest, it's irresponsible.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:28 (six years ago) link

^ OTM

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:29 (six years ago) link

My problem also, hence way way at ths start where I said I hated the idea of the book because of this whole 50 shades submissive bullshit. It has to stop, because its reality is what she's (purportedly) gone thru as a result!

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:33 (six years ago) link

tipsy, I would hazard a guess that her options right now are either continue to play along on some version of the publicity & promotion agreement or be prepared to break contract and deal with the consequences, possibly involving demands that she return all or part of the advance. I think the blog post from yesterday was her attempt to break with the viewpoint of the book, it certainly read like it was?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:35 (six years ago) link

Yeah I'm still having a hard time with the fact that here is a 43-year-old educated liberal woman and longtime professional author who has even been married before (supposedly to a perfectly nice, non-abusive guy) who suddenly decided to buy into an absurd domineering cowboy fantasy, pitched a book about it, and then when the relationship turned out to be horribly abusive (which I am not doubting) did not feel any responsibility to pull the plug on the project or at least try to change its dimensions. The fact that she was victimized by this man (or that she has financial needs) doesn't absolve her of all responsibility whatsoever here.

As far as the advance, ok, well it's an advance. Why should she keep it?

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:35 (six years ago) link

To pay rent

pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:37 (six years ago) link

my guess is she's spent it already and can't give it back

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:37 (six years ago) link

I'm still having a hard time with the fact that here is a 43-year-old educated liberal woman and longtime professional author who has even been married before (supposedly to a perfectly nice, non-abusive guy) who suddenly decided to buy into an absurd domineering cowboy fantasy, pitched a book about it, and then when the relationship turned out to be horribly abusive (which I am not doubting) did not feel any responsibility to pull the plug on the project or at least try to change its dimensions.

fucked up situations fuck people up

christmas candy bar (al leong), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:38 (six years ago) link

some of you guys seem to be ignoring that if she doesn't promote the book in some way, this will affect her ability to earn money. this isn't the (sexist imo) "this is about money!" trope that people sometimes push around controversies like these - it's "if I take the moral high road, it will have a material effect on me." people will do/say all sorts of things where their health and well-being are concerned - just renouncing the book and saying "don't buy or read it" would be an honest and moral decision, and would also be working tangibly against self-interest.

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:39 (six years ago) link

imo there's probably also pressures on her besides the economic/publishing ones, as evidenced by the backlash against her blog post (i.e. the same pressures faced by all survivors of rape/abuse)

1staethyr, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:39 (six years ago) link

Mordy I actually think you are cool poster on a lot of topics but please shut the fuck up maybe walk away from this thread

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:40 (six years ago) link

Hurting 2, have you ever been in an abusive relationship? Serious q, not meaning any condescension/card-pulling. Finding oneself in such a relationship and having all kinds of personal fallout as a result have literally nothing to do with one's intelligence, experience, etc. It is a very complex dynamic.

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:40 (six years ago) link

I have been advised not to discuss any of this publicly, to just accept this cold shoulder and lack of support as my penance for the crime of being openly broken up with the cowboy when I should have just pretended we were still together long enough to sell books. I have tried to be cooperative, but as the early reviews come rolling in for the book I feel compelled to come clean — totally clean — with my readers. I do this because I think it will help to make sense of a book that in many ways just doesn’t make sense to healthy people, and because I believe very firmly that the truth is the only currency a writer has, and that if there is any hope of redeeming this book and making it meaningful it lies in the full story of my relationship with the cowboy and not just in the candy-coated version that appears in the book.

I don't think there is a way of reconciling these words, that she said, with the consequent coverup. Apparently truth is not the ONLY currency this writer has.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:40 (six years ago) link

ranger than fiction

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:41 (six years ago) link

I hope she has a lawyer at this point

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:41 (six years ago) link

Mordy you too could maybe benefit from thinking a little harder about the dynamics of abusive relationships and their many effects of the survivor

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:41 (six years ago) link

y'all are barred from ilf btw

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:41 (six years ago) link

on the survivor

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:42 (six years ago) link

I don't get the impression that anyone in this thread is angry. I'm certainly not angry.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:40 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also I am very angry! I am angry about a culture that makes excuses for rape and abuse and silences its victims.

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:42 (six years ago) link

I'm sorry silby, but this is - despite emily's assertion to the contrary - a serious issue for me. It goes to the heart of honesty in writing and journalism. I don't know that she is or isn't lying about the abuse but I do know that this is a writer with a memoir reviewed in major serious literary review outlets that has undermined the validity of her (on its own controversial) book w/out staying true to that assertion.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:42 (six years ago) link

Xps, Penguin also publishes this:

http://www.penguin.co.uk/nf/Book/BookDisplay/0,,9781405910644,00.html

It's what sells, though. Any agent coming along with the cowboy book and a pitch of Ree Drummond meets EL James would get their hand bitten off by most publishers.

The best course of action would be to cancel her engagements for a few days and work out a way forward everyone is comfortable with. It's not as though they can put the cat back in the bag.

Tullamorte Tullamore (ShariVari), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:42 (six years ago) link

I don't want to silence her! I want her to stand up for what she wrote on her blog. Not go on the radio and pretend that she had a great love affair with this cowboy!

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:43 (six years ago) link

my guess is she's spent it already and can't give it back

She probably got the advance like two years ago, how much do you think is left now? Probably not much.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:43 (six years ago) link

I keep telling myself "man, if someone gave me hundreds of thousands of dollars, I could make that stretch so far" but in the back of my head I know that I'd basically pay off all of my outstanding debts and then go on a wildly expensive gambling trip to Kuala Lampur

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:44 (six years ago) link

Abuse is not an excuse for perpetuating abuse, which is what pushing this book on her audience is doing.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:45 (six years ago) link

If she doesn't stand by the abuse/rape charge, it's despicable that she made it.
― Canaille help you (Michael White), Thursday, January 10, 2013 9:09 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post

this is a while along in the thread but just so we're clear: this is a fucking inexcusable thing to say.

Maybe she claimed to be bisexual for attention; maybe, given that her 'i am not bisexual and you are lying, please take it down' phase seems to have happened during the cowboy relationship, it was important to her to deny it because of the relationship she was then in. We don't know! But "this woman has in the past claimed things about her identity and then retracted them" is not a solid reason to accuse her of lying about abuse.

c sharp major, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:51 (six years ago) link

I agree with you mordy but I think what aero is trying to point out is to understand what her motivations might be here, considering what she's been thru (as someone who has been myself, I know how it can fuck up how you deal with everything else)

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:51 (six years ago) link

xp to self - my two paragraphs are not related to each other btw

c sharp major, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:53 (six years ago) link

the timeline on that is very fuzzy to me; the relationship she mentions during that entire back-and-forth is her 12-year marriage, not her new relationship with the cowboy

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:53 (six years ago) link

this letter is sitting at the top of her personal blog right now:

Hello Miss. Valdes I’ve never written anyone famous before, especially a writer; so please be gentle with the way I write. On Wednesday my 14 year old daughter informs me at 7p.m. e.s.t. that she needs a book for school, so I take her to Books a Million. We find the book she needs and I tell her that I’d like to look around for a while. I move over to the new arrivals and start looking around and low and behold is your book. The title catches my eye and I begin to read the inside jacket. I’m a little stunned and unsure about the book, for one thing I thought it was Romance Novel and quickly find out it’s your memoir. I think I should tell you, that, yes I’m a conservative, but one who detest the Republican party. I’m also the only conservative, who is male, but loves to read Romance novels. It’s my guilty Pleasure. Anyways, unsure about what I’m reading, I start the first chapter and am immediately blown away. I bought it! I haven’t been able to put it down. I laughed, I cried, (that’s a little embarrassing, so be merciful) I shouted nooo, I cheered, and I fell in love with your writing. I don’t think I’ve connected with anyone like I have with you. You made me feel like we were old friends and I appreciate that. You gave me hope that people with different points of view, can bridge their differences and simply be nice to one another. I was so moved by this book that I wanted to tell you how much I enjoyed it. I was sorry to hear about your break up, but I am happy to read you’ve met someone new. I know how bad it hurts when you love someone so much and that love is lost. I pray that this new one works out for you. You deserve it. Miss. Valdes, what ever happens remember, you have a new friend, one of millions who love your writing and hope for the best for you. You brought joy to my heart with this story and I thank you for it. Your friend and fan, Sam

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:54 (six years ago) link

i'm so happy we can understand the motivations of someone who is proud to be shoveling this abusive crap to 14 year olds.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:54 (six years ago) link

sorry, i misread that. i don't think the 14 year old read it.

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:56 (six years ago) link

I was about to say!

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:56 (six years ago) link

Finally, I’d like to thank my post-cowboy boyfriend, Michael D. Gandy, the man I am pretty sure I’m going to spend the rest of my life with, for being supportive of me as I embark upon a tour for this book. It can’t be easy watching the woman you love read from a book that was written as a love letter to a different man. It takes a very strong man indeed to handle a thing like this with grace, and that is exactly what Mike is doing. He even wrote a thank-you letter to the cowboy for making me a better woman, a woman who might have scared an incredible man like Michael off, had I never been “tamed”…

Mordy, Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:57 (six years ago) link

ftr there was basic unanimous agreement that everyone thinks that comment is gross

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:58 (six years ago) link

Yeah barf. and who writes to their partners ex? ffs.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:59 (six years ago) link

ppl under the sway of charismatic and magnetic sociopaths probably

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, 10 January 2013 23:59 (six years ago) link

hopefully now that it's being covered by the atlantic the publishing company is going to give her free reign to discuss it - i don't think they can bury it at this point

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:00 (six years ago) link

tbh she should probably lawyer up, she can probably expect an adversarial relationship with her publisher at this point

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:01 (six years ago) link

and the ex-bf

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:01 (six years ago) link

i'd guess she wants this book to sell and then she wants the book she is presumably currently writing, about how the previous book was founded on a lie, to also sell.

c sharp major, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:02 (six years ago) link

Her youtube of "Steven" is still there. Under her name. Interestingly.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:05 (six years ago) link

tbh she should probably lawyer up, she can probably expect an adversarial relationship with her publisher at this point

I was going to say that it's like when a book is about to come out (or has already come out) and then is found to be a work of plagiarism and agents and lawyers get involved and the legal dept emails the whole company about not telling outsiders anything...but actually it's not like that at all because one thing this woman is (inexplicably?) not being attacked for is being a pretty bad writer so SOMEONE will be willing to take a chance on her next book, although I would guess not to the tune of this last one.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:07 (six years ago) link

imho the publisher should pulp this book james frey style and let her keep the advance as an advance on the follow-up book.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:09 (six years ago) link

awful story

as someone from the southwest, i can attest that cowboys are pretty much invariably total douches

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:10 (six years ago) link

you can't brand them all like that

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:11 (six years ago) link

get off your high horse, daargh

bnw, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:12 (six years ago) link

don't make me call stet, son

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:14 (six years ago) link

now THIS is my kind of thread hijack, mane

pun lovin criminal (polyphonic), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:14 (six years ago) link

sometimes you meet one who bucks the trend

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:16 (six years ago) link

cmon mane

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:17 (six years ago) link

I think what tends to separate this particular case of abuse from the typical case is that the abused woman wrote a book and a publisher has published it, wherein she speaks as one with authority and that authority has been legitimized to a large extent, and from that position of authority she speaks not just about herself, but makes broad positive assertions about men, about women, about what their relations should be, and about how her relationship with this cowboy can be taken as a model or a template from which to draw many positive lessons.

Under that circumstance, you cannot simply say that abuse victims often identify with their abuser, often protect them and excuse them, and often assert that they love their abuser and because this is typical, it is excusable, even something we ought to empathize with. Although all this is true enough, it doesn't go far enough, because it doesn't contradict the authority which she has assumed and has been loaned to her by her publisher. One has to point out how toxic her conclusions are, how irrational her actions are, and how utterly bankrupt her recommendations are. Because they are, and they need to be exposed and repudiated.

That isn't being mean or ugly. It is refusing to enable her.

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:18 (six years ago) link

someday we'll look back on this thread and laugh, as if it were a dave chaparral sketch

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:19 (six years ago) link

xp Oh well as long as it's for her own good that's okay then, it can't possibly also be mean or ugly.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:20 (six years ago) link

Literally Clusterfucks 2013

sug life (rogermexico.), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:22 (six years ago) link

The only mean and ugly thing is the pro-abuse propaganda currently being sold as a charming memoir about cowboys.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:23 (six years ago) link

No! It is GROSS and wrong and sad but it is emphatically not the only thing wrong about her situation, the presentation of this continuing story on the internet, or this thread. There are lots of things intersectingly wrong and mean and sad and part of what makes you/ppl sound "angry" or like they have some axe to grind is insisting that of all the things going on, only this woman is in the wrong or being bad.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:25 (six years ago) link

The publisher is obviously being wrong too, but we shouldn't give a pass on this thing being sold in Borders as non-fiction to spare her feelings (and her bank account). It's sick.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:25 (six years ago) link

This all could have been avoided if anyone had paid attention to Paula Cole.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:26 (six years ago) link

Cathi Carol ‏@CathiCarol
@hoodedu @MizAlisa .... A missed opportunity to write about how a normal person can be taken in by an abuser; how to recognize it and leave.

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
@CathiCarol @hoodedu This is exactly what I want to do. I am passionate about it now. Never thought I'd be "one of those" women...but I was.

She wrote this half an hour ago on her twitter. If this is how she feels she has an obligation to her readers and herself to disavow the current book and ask her publisher to withdraw it from the marketplace.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:27 (six years ago) link

Borders hasn't existed for a while, son, you musta slept on that one.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:27 (six years ago) link

damn

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:28 (six years ago) link

lol @ "this terrible woman! why won't she stop perpetuating domestic abuse?"

1staethyr, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:34 (six years ago) link

Uh, wait, what? Part 2? If you are asking the reading public to dip in again, you have to earn our trust the first time. And yet here you are, publicizing a book that is encouraging women to submit themselves to a romantic formula whose end sum is “painful, controlling, emotionally abusive, crazymaking.”

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/01/10/the_cowboy_and_the_feminist_turns_out_to_be_a_story_about_abuse.html

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:36 (six years ago) link

I imagine Valdes took the post down because her publisher made her. Not really good for sales if it turns out that the message of your love story is setting people up for something close to rape. Believe me, I understand what it’s like to put your heart and soul into a book, particularly if it’s a memoir where you bare the worst of yourself. But as the cowboy would say, Alisa: Stop. It’s over.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:37 (six years ago) link

This is how I feel, 100% ^

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:37 (six years ago) link

It's good that we cleared that up at least.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:39 (six years ago) link

But as the cowboy would say, Alisa: Stop. It’s over.

hmm

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:39 (six years ago) link

It seems incredibly shitty to use the language of the person who abused her against her

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:41 (six years ago) link

Yep.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:42 (six years ago) link

I think defending her right to push this morally abhorrent memoir, even if stemming from a place of understanding and sympathy, ultimately leads you to an untenable ethical position.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:42 (six years ago) link

Why are you acting like her publisher is being strong armed into pushing her book?

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:44 (six years ago) link

there are subtle variances in the realm of understanding and sympathy that don't involve specifically defending her right to push this memoir.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:44 (six years ago) link

It seems like the CW itt is that she can't be expected to not push this memoir because the advance was a lot of money.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:45 (six years ago) link

book publisher wants to sell book shocker.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:46 (six years ago) link

I'm not surprised that the book publisher wants to sell the book. I'm surprised that Valdes is willing to go along with it.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:47 (six years ago) link

Basically what you are saying is that she should have destroyed herself professionally in the way you approve of rather than the way she chose without knowing the details of what went down between her and her publisher that is generating all of this weird doublespeak.

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:51 (six years ago) link

It seems like the CW itt is that she can't be expected to not push this memoir because the advance was a lot of money.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 4:45 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm 1000% sure that this is the position of nobody in this thread

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:52 (six years ago) link

this is like her eighth book. it's not going to destroy her career.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:53 (six years ago) link

Is it more likely that she is doing her press tour for her book because she still thinks it's awesome or because a VP of Legal is telling her she has to or she will get sued into oblivion and she hasn't retained counsel yet

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Friday, 11 January 2013 00:54 (six years ago) link

tbh i think it's very unlikely that the VP of Legal is threatening to sue her for writing that she was abused. it's certainly possible, but would be such a huge PR fuckup for the publisher if it got out.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 00:58 (six years ago) link

Penguin Threatened to Sue Author for Saying She Was Abused

^ this is not a headline that Gotham/Penguin wants to see

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:00 (six years ago) link

Abuse is not an excuse for perpetuating abuse, which is what pushing this book on her audience is doing.

yeah man...it's like she's committing genocide with her dishonesty

too many encores (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:01 (six years ago) link

A little more:

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/alisa_valdes_anti_feminist_romance_not_so_romantic/

In an email, Valdes tells me that, although she doesn’t dispute the truth of what she originally wrote in the post, she removed it at the request of her publisher. Speaking of her publisher, in the blog post in question, a cached version of which is still searchable online, she claims that her publisher has “essentially shunned” her as a result of the inconvenient real-world demise of her written fairy tale and writes, “I am deeply wounded by the stonewalling from my editor, as wounded as I ever was when the cowboy did it to me.” (I have yet to get a response from her publicist at Gotham Books to an email request for comment.)

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:03 (six years ago) link

all this becomes much easier to take if you come at it with the perspective that everyone is abhorrent from jump

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:03 (six years ago) link

In an email, she tells me, ”The relationship with the cowboy was rocky for most of 2012, with moments of great beauty and talk of marriage, to moments of tremendous and painful conflict.” She describes it as “on-again, off-again,” but it finally ended in September of last year. “I do think the relationship continued longer than it should have in part because I wanted to make it at least to the publication date,” she explains. “I eventually had to recognize that this was not a good reason to force something that didn’t work.”

It’s not that she’s entirely changed her mind, though. She considers herself a “Difference Feminist” (i.e., she sees men and women as having equal worth but as “not being necessarily the same or having the same abilities in all things”), and maintains that the cowboy helped her “to embrace my own female-ness in a way I had been trained to subsume.” She ended the email with a nod to her alleged abuser, “As the cowboy often said, there is the way things are, and there is the way we would like for things to be,” she tells me. “The only one that matters, ultimately, is how things are. We might not like it, and it might not be fair, but that doesn’t make any of it less true.” She has a new boyfriend now and, she says, he “wrote the cowboy a thank you note, for having ‘tamed’ me and made me a better woman, which I totally agree with.”

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:04 (six years ago) link

I think it is entirely possible to think her promo tour is nagl without letting either the publisher or the cowboy off the hook.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:04 (six years ago) link

Which is to say, strongo otm.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:05 (six years ago) link

It's true that its 100% inconceivable that her publisher could be like the Catholic Church or Penn State or any other massive institution when faced with a reputation-destroying scandal

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:06 (six years ago) link

right now no-one looks v good at all. wish there was some more clarity here, hope it comes out in the coming weeks. not that life ever gets tied up in a bow but I'd like to understand more of what went down and how etc

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:06 (six years ago) link

or what strongo said

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:06 (six years ago) link

it's not 100% inconceivable but it's Penguin. you think they've never dealt with an author promo crisis before? xxp

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:06 (six years ago) link

I gotta say, this bit:

“I do think the relationship continued longer than it should have in part because I wanted to make it at least to the publication date."

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:07 (six years ago) link

also not totally a great comparison being as how in the catholic church / penn state metaphor that makes valdes a pedophile.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:07 (six years ago) link

which I totally agree withwhich I totally agree withwhich I totally agree withwhich I totally agree withwhich I totally agree withwhich I totally agree with

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:07 (six years ago) link

wow this thread

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:16 (six years ago) link

emily and elmo totally otm though at a certain point i had to start reading

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:16 (six years ago) link

oh great she's a pedophile too

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:18 (six years ago) link

i am resisting the urge to tell ilxors i think are probably decent people to fuck off, but some of you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:19 (six years ago) link

lol i had to stop reading, i meant; i'm a little het up

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:22 (six years ago) link

Is it more likely that she is doing her press tour for her book because she still thinks it's awesome or because a VP of Legal is telling her she has to or she will get sued into oblivion and she hasn't retained counsel yet

― autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Thursday, January 10, 2013 6:54 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Is it? I suspect it's more complicated on both sides. It's possible that she wants to sell the book despite her desire to make public what she published in the post. Find a way to tell the whole story and make money in the process. Why not? That doesn't make her any less of a victim of abuse. Her post seemed to be 50% shaking her fist at her publisher for giving her "the cold shoulder". Who knows if a lawsuit is even being threatened? Why are we taking sides over who is the villain, between her and her publisher? We're making stuff up based on the most palatable narrative. They both wanted to publish this POS book.

all this becomes much easier to take if you come at it with the perspective that everyone is abhorrent from jump

― let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Thursday, January 10, 2013 7:03 PM (42 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yup.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:29 (six years ago) link

yup.

estela, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:31 (six years ago) link

wow this whole thing

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:42 (six years ago) link

what a sad fascinating totally unsurprising story

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:43 (six years ago) link

What I mean by this is that while I set out to write a memoir that was a love letter to a man I was deeply in love with, a man who challenged me in myriad ways, a man who changed my life profoundly, a man I respected and honored greatly at the time, what I actually wrote was a handbook for women on how to fall in love with a manipulative, controlling, abusive narcissist.

i mean

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:44 (six years ago) link

also as far as all the detectiving going on itt one point that it seems is being under appreciated is that she was already beefing w her publisher before the now deleted come clean blog post, what exactly was that about

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:46 (six years ago) link

she said it was bc they were disappointed that she broke up with the guy before the book came to press

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:48 (six years ago) link

That's always seemed like a hazard of the stunt memoir -- you sell the idea of having the experience while you're still having it (or even before you've had it), and then it has to live up to whatever your pitch was.

something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:52 (six years ago) link

yeah i guess they couldve been on ellen or w/e together displaying their superior post feminist love

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:53 (six years ago) link

I have learned just how fine the line is between being an alpha male and being something else altogether.

also on a side note can people finally just stop it w this shit already, an alpha male is like not a real thing

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:58 (six years ago) link

excuse me! my mother was an alpha male

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:59 (six years ago) link

apologies not trying to start a race war

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 02:01 (six years ago) link

lol @ jho. hi jho!

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 02:04 (six years ago) link

sup hs how u doin

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 02:04 (six years ago) link

ime alpha males are more like zephyr males or w/e

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 02:09 (six years ago) link

estela vmic otm as per usual ; )

buzza, Friday, 11 January 2013 02:32 (six years ago) link

I have learned just how fine the line is between being an alpha male and being something else altogether.

also on a side note can people finally just stop it w this shit already, an alpha male is like not a real thing

― lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 01:58 (1 hour ago) Permalink

excuse me! my mother was an alpha male

― let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 01:59 (1 hour ago) Permalink

apologies not trying to start a race war

― lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 02:01 (1 hour ago) Permalink

amazing

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 11 January 2013 04:18 (six years ago) link

1234

fiscal cliff paul (k3vin k.), Friday, 11 January 2013 04:21 (six years ago) link

literary racewars 2013

mookieneb (buzza), Friday, 11 January 2013 04:23 (six years ago) link

i admit in the midst of this rather dire thread i irl lold and sort of did a little celebration when i realized jonviachi was still engaged in fully defending himself against any and all race war accusations

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 04:25 (six years ago) link

ah, posted above n/m

mookieneb (buzza), Friday, 11 January 2013 04:27 (six years ago) link

lol same, it's the rift that keeps on giving.

xp to lagoon

estela, Friday, 11 January 2013 04:29 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
"It's amazing how many idiots have access to the Internet." My son, 11

He's not wrong.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 05:12 (six years ago) link

So last month she started a blog of love letters between her and her new boyfriend.

http://thepassionletters.wordpress.com/

I mean...

maura, Friday, 11 January 2013 08:53 (six years ago) link

Jesus H Attentionseeker.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Friday, 11 January 2013 08:59 (six years ago) link

Teardrops often remind me of children. They see a paradise that NO NO STOP IT I ALREADY HAVE DIABETES JUST FROM THAT OH GOD.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Friday, 11 January 2013 09:00 (six years ago) link

I'm getting echoes of Liz Jones and Nirpal Dhaliwal

why men and women have nothing in common except sex (according to the daily mail)

imago, Friday, 11 January 2013 11:10 (six years ago) link

if i were getting echoes of liz jones, i'd move

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 11:14 (six years ago) link

Yikes, those letters

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 13:14 (six years ago) link

This inner calm was the very first thing I noticed about you the first time I met you in person. Do you remember? We met for coffee at a Starbucks near the Cottonwood Mall, ostensibly to “network”. You’d friended me on Facebook several months before, and we had an acquaintanceship based upon writing. I’d always known you were breathtakingly beautiful; that much is obvious from your photos. I know I had an interest in you that was probably inappropriate, given our age difference. But I also knew that you wrote beautifully, and I wanted to be your friend…at least your friend.
I almost didn’t show up that day, because I felt like such a predator. We’d been friends, but never flirted until I started that avalanche. You played back. It was fun. But we had yet to meet face to face. I texted you en route to that first meeting, told you I felt weird, like a creepy cougar lady. You LOLed back and reassured me. “It’s just networking, right?” you half-joked. Right, I thought. Riiiiiight.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 13:18 (six years ago) link

execrable.

estela, Friday, 11 January 2013 13:49 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes, June 14, 2011: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alisa-valdesrodriguez/christian-fiction_b_875112.html

Christian book publishing is flourishing. The Evangelical Christian Publishers Association (ECPA) reports an increase in sales from 2009 to 2010 of 4.6 percent, according to a November 22 article in Christian Retailing magazine. Eight of the 15 member houses reporting to the ECPA reported an astonishing growth rate for that period of 14.5 percent.

My sociologist father taught me well that in American society there is a constant pendulum swing back and forth between what Max Weber and others called "traditionalist" and "modernist" values. In fact, the red-state, blue-state divide in the United States could also be interpreted as the ongoing conflict between these two distinct and yet both very American values systems.

At times of economic hardship, such as the one we are all living through now, people gravitate toward the traditionalist values, in search of something stable, predictable, and certain. It is no surprise then, that as the nation's economy continues to fumble and fall, that readers are drawn more and more toward stories that speak of simpler times, traditional values, and selflessness.

In other words, long gone are the days of Sex in the City and other consumerist "chick lit," as readers turn en masse toward Amish romances and romances set in small rural Western towns. Many in publishing say chick lit is dead. I don't agree. Rather, I think chick lit has given up Friday night cocktails for Sunday morning services.

My sociology professor father compiled a list of values that are in constant conflict between traditional and modern societies that I as an author find of great interest at this crossroads in our nation's history. Reading through it is almost like reading a list of plots and themes that worked in women's fiction in the 1990s and early 2000s (modernist) versus those that intelligent writers would be wise to utilize now (traditionalist).

Under "economic structure" we find the following differences:

* Modernists (like Carrie Bradshaw) create goods for exchange or sale; traditionalists (like the Amish heroines) create goods for their own use or for their community.

* Modernists function within a national economy and are city-based, whereas traditionalists function in a local economy and are rural-based. (We see the first hints of the power of the traditionalist Christian book market's emergence in the success of Twilight, which was written by a devout Mormon, set in the forest, and featured no sex before marriage.)

* Modern society sees a complex division of labor where everyone can do or be anything they like; traditional society has a simple division of labor set by sex and age -- meaning the Sex in the City girls (or the women in my own "chica lit" novels) are ambitious businesswomen and go-getters, while the new heroines tend to teach sewing or care for children.

The contrasts become even more fascinating when you look at the differences in social structure between modern and traditional societies.

* Modern relationships tend to be transitory and impersonal (think Samantha's many sexual conquests) whereas traditional relationships are long-lasting and genuinely intimate. Readers are actively seeking out these more satisfying stories, with a deeper level of connection.

It would be a mistake for Manhattan publishing to simply roll their eyes at the "wacko evangelicals" in the "fly-over states" who are reading the new traditionalist fiction by the trainload. The hunger for deeper meaning in relationship and life is not limited to the religious, necessarily, and these stories are finding widespread audiences.

The list goes on.

* Modern society has high and constant social change, and little dependence upon others for approval; traditional society offers a static society where people conform, or depend upon others for approval.

* Modern society embraces and exalts individuality; traditional society holds alternatives to a minimum (thereby offering comfort in belonging, during times of economic uncertainty.)

* Modern society's families are small; traditional society's families are large.

* Modern society emphasizes "achieved" roles, where you can be whatever you like; traditional society demands "ascribed" roles, that you are born into or inherit. In modern society, the individual is the center of it all; in traditional society, family is the center of it all.

This last piece, about self versus community, is key. We are living through a time of unprecedented greed in America, a time when bankers went haywire (resulting in record foreclosures and homelessness) and big business shipped our middle class overseas.

Is it any wonder, then, that romance readers are scooping up books that, while simplistically defined as "Christian," are in fact offering us an alternate view of life and society, one where selfishness and vulgarity have been replaced by community and decorum?

If economic indicators are to be believed, we are probably just seeing the tip of this particular iceberg. Hard times are here to stay for a while, and with them, traditionalist fiction isn't going away.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 14:25 (six years ago) link

Explains all the Mormon vampires.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 14:39 (six years ago) link

Weirdly explains 50 shades, too. Like some sort of crossover genre.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 14:46 (six years ago) link

The soft light did not hide the obvious, which is to say your intense and masculine beauty. I just sort of gasped, and listened to the gentle come-and-go of your breath, and I wondered, again, how it was that I, of all the women in Albuquerque, got so lucky to have been found by you.

Magnificent.

pandemic, Friday, 11 January 2013 14:49 (six years ago) link

xp This is news? As someone said on here recently, she has a very high words-to-ideas ratio.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 14:49 (six years ago) link

By she, do you mean Valdes, James, or Meyer?

Valdes seems pretty sharp to me, despite eye-rolling crap like:

Alisa Valdes @MizAlisa
Ironic: When the same folks taking me to task for challenging extreme feminism try minimize my intellect with: "She just a romance writer".

Alisa Valdes @MizAlisa
A word to reassure my loved ones: I have thick skin, emotionally. The criticism was expected. I questioned feminism. Sacred cow. I'm fine!

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 14:54 (six years ago) link

if I start using the phrase "scared cow" will people get the joke or will they just think I'm dumb

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 14:55 (six years ago) link

Teardrops often remind me of children.

I associate both with dampness and screaming.

Guayaquil (eephus!), Friday, 11 January 2013 14:57 (six years ago) link

Ha. In what context, DJP?

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:00 (six years ago) link

teardrops keep fallin on my head
reminds me the child has probly wet the bed
he's such a little shit
those teardrops keep fallin on my head they keep fallin

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:01 (six years ago) link

Valdes. Sharp? This is ridic: "It would be a mistake for Manhattan publishing to simply roll their eyes at the "wacko evangelicals" in the "fly-over states" who are reading the new traditionalist fiction by the trainload."

"Manhattan publishing" is doing no such thing, they're making money off "bonnet books" and women's fiction directed at calming the fears of religious Middle America as fast as we, I mean they can. Points for strawmanning though.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:02 (six years ago) link

Ha. In what context, DJP?

Maybe I'll start on Twitter, taking on the scared cows of our day

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:03 (six years ago) link

tbf they still may be rolling their eyes xp

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:04 (six years ago) link

YESSSS xpost

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:05 (six years ago) link

Orbit, we totally agree, but there are plenty of examples of intelligent people who are capable of writing well who churn out drivel and bad, lazy, reactionary ideas. *shrugs*

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:07 (six years ago) link

i admit in the midst of this rather dire thread i irl lold and sort of did a little celebration when i realized jonviachi was still engaged in fully defending himself against any and all race war accusations

If you had actually taken time to read the thread, you would've seen that I was not defending myself against any accusations, I was calling out Mordy for a needless personal attack. But considering you are one of ilx's bigger bullies as well, I don't expect much different from you.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:33 (six years ago) link

^ racist warmonger

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:35 (six years ago) link

^ bullying asshole

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:36 (six years ago) link

lol

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:38 (six years ago) link

(sorry)

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:38 (six years ago) link

*bullies erica*

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:39 (six years ago) link

can't wait for 3.0

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:39 (six years ago) link

The Bully and the Race Warrior

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:39 (six years ago) link

kind of interesting that a thread about a situation where a person was constantly belittled and marginalized contains a bunch of posts where several posters belittle and marginalize another one

also gives some excellent examples for my point to in orbit about how easy it is for people to slip into being abusive with words

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:40 (six years ago) link

it is not at all interesting

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:41 (six years ago) link

can't wait for the bullying tag team of am0n and lag∞n to grow the fuck up.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:43 (six years ago) link

*tags lag∞n*

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:44 (six years ago) link

oh jon

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:44 (six years ago) link

kind of interesting that a thread about a situation where a person was constantly belittled and marginalized contains a bunch of posts where several posters belittle and marginalize another one

also gives some excellent examples for my point to in orbit about how easy it is for people to slip into being abusive with words

― Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, January 11, 2013 10:40 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oh come on

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:46 (six years ago) link

I mean do you guys not seriously think you are pushing this thing a little too far? You think its okay to continue to needle me after I've explained several time that I don't find the "race war" shit acceptable in the least? Grow the fuck up.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:47 (six years ago) link

its kind of interesting... how i was right all along

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:49 (six years ago) link

oh jon jon jon whatre we gonna do with you

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:50 (six years ago) link

i'm more puzzled as to why your bullshit is tolerated and i'm painted as the bad guy.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 15:52 (six years ago) link

something to think about i guess

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 15:53 (six years ago) link

I've now transitioned from resisting the urge to poke at Mordy to wanting to poke at jon/via/chi 2.0.

It's nothing personal. There's just this compulsion, like in the red button gag.

I think this is the rush bullies feel when some red-faced kid is sputtering in indignation.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:08 (six years ago) link

p sure 98% of this board wouldn't be satisfied until someone uploaded my suicide video to youtube.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:09 (six years ago) link

poke away at me. i can take it. xp

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:09 (six years ago) link

ha jon you are being very dramatic

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:11 (six years ago) link

probably, but i'm sick of the fucking pile-on after i explicitly explain how tired i am of the goddamn "race war" bullshit. i wish the mods would sack up and do something about bullying on this board for once.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:12 (six years ago) link

for me the thing thats funny about isnt how easy it is to send jon over the edge, its the absurdity of how easy it would be for him to end the race war, instead he fights on

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:14 (six years ago) link

i am totally ignorant of what race war means w/r/t jon so this is all kind of bizarre to me

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:15 (six years ago) link

can we get back to talking about how this woman is completely shameless

maura, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:17 (six years ago) link

*searches for "race war" on ilx*

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:17 (six years ago) link

when is someone going to get a statement from penguin already?

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:18 (six years ago) link

um, sorry, we have got a non-literary clusterfuck thread just over there somewhere, do you guys mind?

Voltaire, eh, what a cunt, bet he was racist

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:18 (six years ago) link

i spent like an hour early this morning reading about her antics, which include claiming bisexuality for an afterellen interview and then denying it and blaming the person who interviewed her

maura, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:18 (six years ago) link

i am totally ignorant of what race war means w/r/t jon so this is all kind of bizarre to me

― fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, January 11, 2013 11:15 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ha yeah i dont even know either, just that if you say jon wants race war he goes to defcon five, fwiw despite being #1 ilx bully i think ive done that maybe once, i was only experimenting swear

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:19 (six years ago) link

did you read about the genocide letter she denied writing to her newspaper? xp

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:19 (six years ago) link

twice tops

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:20 (six years ago) link

i think k3v knows the true history of the race war meme

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:20 (six years ago) link

and she followed almost the exact same pattern with claiming bipolar xp

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:20 (six years ago) link

genocide and race war, it all makes sense now

buzza, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:20 (six years ago) link

yeah shes a mess

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:21 (six years ago) link

Yep. She seems like she's either a particularly awful person or seriously mentally ill.

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:21 (six years ago) link

i remember a time when gawker would've been all over this story (around when they had a daily kaavya viswanathan update) but it seems like they reduced literature culture coverage?

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:22 (six years ago) link

unfortunately these qualities are not always discrete xp

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:22 (six years ago) link

I think she's probably just a horrible human being.

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:22 (six years ago) link

idg why 'you started a race war' is such a big, i mean we were all young once and made mistakes, who am i to cast the first stone, etc

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:22 (six years ago) link

I think zachylon already explained the genocide thing like two days ago.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:23 (six years ago) link

feel like ambition should be in the dsm

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:23 (six years ago) link

it seems like she's a horrible human being who had something horrible happen to her and is now stuck in a terrible no-win position

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:23 (six years ago) link

lol feel like zachylon's apologetics did not adequately explain the genocide thing at all

After extensive study of history, I believe "Latino" -- as used in the Los Angeles Times -- is the most recent attempt at genocide perpetrated against the native people of the Americas. I also posit this new genocide is far more dangerous than the old fashioned murder and relocation efforts.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:24 (six years ago) link

Voltaire, eh, what a cunt, bet he was racist

― let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, January 11, 2013 8:18 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

definitely an anti-Semite

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:24 (six years ago) link

defcon five is peace

difficult listening hour, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:25 (six years ago) link

AND THUS, I CONTRIBUTE

difficult listening hour, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:25 (six years ago) link

distinguishing between cultural and actual genocide does not explain why calling ppl latinos is worse than murder + relocation

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:25 (six years ago) link

lol feel like zachylon's apologetics did not adequately explain the genocide thing at all

After extensive study of history, I believe "Latino" -- as used in the Los Angeles Times -- is the most recent attempt at genocide perpetrated against the native people of the Americas. I also posit this new genocide is far more dangerous than the old fashioned murder and relocation efforts.

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:24 AM (3 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

jesus christ

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:26 (six years ago) link

defcon five is peace

― difficult listening hour, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:25 AM (59 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

war is peace make u think

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:26 (six years ago) link

a practice she equated to genocide

ugh fuck this, there is like a 100% chance she was referring to cultural genocide, a term used for decades and not meant to imply the actual murder of a group of people

― #guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Thursday, January 10, 2013 7:25 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

She may not be a well person, I wouldn't argue for or against anything of that nature at this point, but she wasn't accusing anyone of literal genocide so there's no need to heap extra accusations.

xxxxxp I think his explanation was sufficient for anyone who wanted to look up the term and educate themselves about its use.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:27 (six years ago) link

race peace

difficult listening hour, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:27 (six years ago) link

I've been searching for anything from Gotham Books, but nothing yet, which is probably smart if they aren't on the same page as the author yet.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:27 (six years ago) link

she was accusing them of something WORSE than literal genocide!

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:27 (six years ago) link

woooah dlh dropping thoughts

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:28 (six years ago) link

race peace

― difficult listening hour, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:27 AM (13 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:28 (six years ago) link

i propose that using the term latino is not worse than murdering ppl and that suggesting otherwise is disrespectful to the victims of genocide

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:28 (six years ago) link

i hope not cause ive said latino thousands of times in my life and i dont think im really ready for that level of self reappraisal

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:30 (six years ago) link

I've also been searching for "race war" on ilx, and every result I've clicked on is jon saying he will not tollerate this race war stuff followed by a few random people making race war comments.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:31 (six years ago) link

lookin back jho, do you think that, even unwittingly, you may have started a few race scuffles with yr use of the term?

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:32 (six years ago) link

i prefer to think of them as race disagreements

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:32 (six years ago) link

his father was killed in that race war you assholes

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:33 (six years ago) link

AP you should probably run yr results through a xref with 'burrito stall' and 'pottery'

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:34 (six years ago) link

^ lol. that's the perfect amount of information. I don't need to know any more.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:37 (six years ago) link

*wonders if the phrase 'burrito stalls' is worse than genocide*

xp dammit

gullible lochinski (Drugs A. Money), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:39 (six years ago) link

Amber's review Dec 01, 12

bookshelves: currently-reading, first-reads

Amber's review: 4/5

I have to say I was surprised by this book. It wasn't what I was expecting. It turned out to be more of a change in opinion then the love story I was expecting to read. I did really enjoy The Feminist and the Cowboy: An Unlikely Love Story.

It's fun to watch her opinion change on how The Cowboy treats her change. At first the nice things he wants to do for her such as open her door, she sees as an insult. Somehow she doesn't feel it's right but deep down she almost, kind of, maybe, could like the jester. As time goes on she sees these acts of kindness for just what they are, a gentleman wanting to take care of his lady.

This is the first book I have read by Alisa Valdes. I would enjoy reading more by her.

If you enjoyed this book I would also recommend Rurally Screwed by Jessie Knadler

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:42 (six years ago) link

i love that its the bullies of ilx who get to determine whether or not what they do is valid to be offended by or not. this is such fucking bullshit and, at this point, i can only believe that the mods are actively in support of bullying.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:42 (six years ago) link

I mean, whatever. I'm going to let this thread go after this post, but I've specifically asked multiple time now for the "race war" thing to stop. I asked nicely, I asked dramatically, I asked politely, whatever. I think anyone who continues to do it after I've specifically asked that it stop is a bully and I'm awed by how little the site's mods care about it. Flag Post obviously doesn't work. I don't give a shit if someone wants to "zing" me or w/e, I've just asked that this specifc race war thing stopped. Anyone that doesn't respect this is crossing a line, imho.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:49 (six years ago) link

she almost, kind of, maybe, could like the jester.

http://www.jesteroftheglobe.com/images/jester-sml.jpg

I'm sure he's not ALL bad....

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:51 (six years ago) link

*cries*

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:51 (six years ago) link

Jon, half the ppl here don't even know what that crack is about, and definitely it's not worth letting Mordy jerk you around by it, don't u see?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:52 (six years ago) link

it's really difficult to answer that without making reference to the silliness of the whole thing, i mean if you're going to continuously flare up over something so ridiculous ppl are gonna find it very hard to take it seriously.

Where d'you think the racewar bullying ranks in the history of ilx bullying, ilx being the bullyingest site west of pamplona?

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:53 (six years ago) link

this thread is so weird now

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:53 (six years ago) link

in orbit, plz refer to above where i apologized to jon for the race wars crack.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:54 (six years ago) link

Jon, half the ppl here don't even know what that crack is about, and definitely it's not worth letting Mordy jerk you around by it, don't u see?

its not Mordy I'm talking about this morning, its amon and lagoon and the others who've decided to pile on with it.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:55 (six years ago) link

If you promise to shut the fuck up and not fall into the exact same elephant trap EVERY SINGLE TIME I will ban them both from this thread.

Matt DC, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:56 (six years ago) link

fyi i wasn't piling on, i just stated that idk wtf its about

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:56 (six years ago) link

MOD CRUELTY

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:56 (six years ago) link

i can only believe that the mods are actively in support of bullying.

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, January 11, 2013 11:42 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

mods are the worst bullies of all!

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

It's not an elephant trap when I've fucking asked it to stop, repeatedly. How about for once the mods address the actual problem?

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

If you promise to shut the fuck up and not fall into the exact same elephant trap EVERY SINGLE TIME I will ban them both from this thread.

― Matt DC, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:56 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

see

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

By this ilx logic if I call you an "asshole", you don't get to be offended if I think its "ridiculous".

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:57 (six years ago) link

as for the history ilx bullying i feel like the time that jw & i et al. googlebombed LJ was pretty bad and i do regret it now

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:58 (six years ago) link

if rrrobyn came in here accusing u of starting a race war I'd pay attention - amon and lagoon? not so much :)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:58 (six years ago) link

Okay I'm going to leave them both to it then.

Matt DC, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:59 (six years ago) link

ilx is definitely experiencing a deficit of people feeling offended

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 16:59 (six years ago) link

test

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 16:59 (six years ago) link

By this ilx logic if I call you an "asshole", you don't get to be offended if I think its "ridiculous".

― HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, January 11, 2013 11:57 AM

^ ban this guy

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:00 (six years ago) link

i have not accused jon of race war itt and have in fact been v reasonable in the face of his attacks!

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:00 (six years ago) link

Matt, you're not helping, in fact that is a perfect example of a mod actively supporting the bullying.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:00 (six years ago) link

holy fuck, he just called me an asshole. Mods, wtf?

Oh no wait i absorbed it and grew stronger nm

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:00 (six years ago) link

all i said is that i find his response to race war k funny which is it irrefutably is

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:01 (six years ago) link

tbh mordy i'm curious as to why you seem to take such umbrage at people taking umbrage, is it like a personal crusade of yours to eradicate politically correct namby-pambyism or

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:01 (six years ago) link

Feminist Mom Falls Head Over Heels for Marlboro Man, January 3, 2013
By James R. Holland "Author, Photographer, Photo... (Boston, MA) - See all my reviews

This review is from: The Feminist and the Cowboy: An Unlikely Love Story (Hardcover)
"It was 2010. I was forty-one years old and a single mom to a preteen boy. I was a (recovering) journalist and reformed Ivy Leaguer, happily making a living as a writer of commercial fiction, but with no personal life to speak of...I mention all of this to somewhat lessen the blow to my ego of admitting that I, hoping to meet a real-live man-person, had joined an online dating site. Okay? I admit it. Let's move on." Thus begins this fascinating and funny memoir. The humor in the book grabs the reader's attention right from the beginning of the book. Her descriptions of the liberal and progressive, metro-sexual men she met and dated on the site are a riot. Just one example follows:

"There was the well-known blogger for the Democratic Party who tweeted about women's rights but was addicted to hard-core pornography and wanted nothing more than to spray his man-juice on a woman's face as she knelt before him in a suit." Many of her other dates turned out to be even more weird than this infamous Democratic blogger. Of course, many of the people on any kind of dating website are probably just as crazy.

Sample titles of the 336-page book's 30 chapters include "The Cowboy Reaches Out: Second Date With The Cowboy: Girl's Night Out: A Word About Feminism: The Answering Machine Doesn't Lie" and "The Come-To-Jesus Meeting."

"This distant older conservative cowboy was chock-full of grammatically intact wiseassery. It made no sense. There weren't any smart conservatives, right? Everyone I'd ever gone to Columbia University with or worked with in newspapers back east knew the hard-and-fast rule: Conservatives were stupid! Or evil! There was no other kind. Period." Wiseassery--the writer obviously knows how to turn a phrase to keep her writing moving right along.

After she told this guy off and forgot about him, the author then goes on to confess that her Cowboy was everything a woman could possibly want. But she is obviously so attracted to this rancher whom she admits is more handsome than any movie actors including Brad Pitt, that it seems impossible the match will survive. Actually, her description of her cowboy will remind most readers of Brad Pitt and some of his roles.

"Liberals have this idea that all conservatives are crazy, on the fringe, he said. That's why I prefer the term traditionalist to conservative, because most of us aren't neocons; we're just people who like traditional values. I also don't want to see liberals disappear off the face of the earth, because you guys are the conscience of humanity. We make the hard decisions that you guys won't, but we need you there to remind us to be human."

This book is amusing and full of good humor; it also has some very serious subject matter. It was fun to watch the feminist and her parents gain new insights into the relationships between men and women.

"Until we as a culture can teach men to be real men, there's no use in any woman submitting to most of the sorry-ass men out there, he said. You can't advocate women taking a more traditional role if men aren't doing what they need to be doing."

"I have no doubt, as I sit here to write this, that I will be on the receiving end of a lot of grief once this book comes out. I have no doubt that I will be seen as the enemy by many in the women's movement. I will be seen as espousing something that many people fear will set women back a couple hundred years. I also know enough by now, having been a newspaper reporter for a decade and a novelist for that same amount of time, to understand that some people will want to fight, no matter what you say to them. I used to be one of those people. I know that there are some people for whom I will always be the bad guy, no matter how I explain myself."

This is a very amusing and enjoyable read and the reader will be sorry when it ends because it is an unfinished story and the reader can only guess what will happen in the future. Will the love story between the author with her bumper sticker "I hate FOX News" and her conservative, macho rancher boy friend continue? You'll have to read the book to find out and even then the story may not have a real ending. This affair between two movie-star beautiful people, but total opposites, seems doomed to have an unhappy ending. Frankly, this reviewer would not have put up with the control the Cowboy seemed to demand for more than a couple of passionate love-making sessions.

There are certain to be former friends from the author's sisterhood who will feel this whole story was intended only to gin up the gossip mill, introduce her to a wider book audience and to get her a mountain of free publicity for this and her other books.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:02 (six years ago) link

tbh mordy i'm curious as to why you seem to take such umbrage at people taking umbrage, is it like a personal crusade of yours to eradicate politically correct namby-pambyism or

i'm not really at war with pc namby-pambyism. i just hate the self-righteous pieties that certain ilx posters bask in.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:03 (six years ago) link

it ought to be pointed out that more ppl think i'm an asshole than believe you started a racewar.

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:03 (six years ago) link

"Everyone I'd ever gone to Columbia University with or worked with in newspapers back east knew the hard-and-fast rule: Conservatives were stupid! Or evil! There was no other kind. Period."

Rings false imo

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:04 (six years ago) link

it ought to be pointed out that more ppl think i'm an asshole than believe you started a racewar.

i can safely cosign this sentiment.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:05 (six years ago) link

why does that phrase push jon's button so hard guess i'll never know

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:05 (six years ago) link

"Everyone I'd ever gone to Columbia University with or worked with in newspapers back east knew the hard-and-fast rule: Conservatives were stupid! Or evil! There was no other kind. Period."

Rings false imo

― christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, January 11, 2013 12:04 PM (1 second ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

those famously conservative adverse publications the wall st journal and the washington post

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:06 (six years ago) link

i'm not really at war with pc namby-pambyism. i just hate the self-righteous pieties that certain ilx posters bask in.

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:03 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know what i can't stand around here? people not naming names.

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:14 (six years ago) link

jon/via/chi

iatee, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:15 (six years ago) link

which people aren't naming names?

clive mendonca's big soccer (NickB), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:15 (six years ago) link

I shall write a book about how I love all of you, then publicize it by speaking of my hate.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:16 (six years ago) link

curse you, Alisa Valdes, for turning us against each other

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:16 (six years ago) link

my not naming names is not a function of my passive-aggressiveness but rather a rare display of minimal restraint

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:16 (six years ago) link

we should sue her blog xp

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:17 (six years ago) link

hasn't she been through enough?

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:17 (six years ago) link

she needs a strong message board to show her the way

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:18 (six years ago) link

I was about to change my display name to "Juan, check yr cousin" and then I thought about it for a second

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:18 (six years ago) link

ned this is all yr fault

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:19 (six years ago) link

let's have a literary clusterfuck thread, he said

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:19 (six years ago) link

typo for literal clusterfuck

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:19 (six years ago) link

Ned, my sincere apologies for derailing your thread. I've made a request in another thread to address my issue.

HAPPY BDAY TOOTS (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:24 (six years ago) link

Come, let us set aside our differences and celebrate:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyvkNDtW7Lw

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:25 (six years ago) link

I have often thought of ILX as an alluring but ultimately abusive cowboy lover

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:27 (six years ago) link

w/o the sexual gratification

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:28 (six years ago) link

i hope

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:28 (six years ago) link

no judgement

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:28 (six years ago) link

I started turning this thread into an erasure poem, but I only got this far:

Beginning to think maybe a rolling thread might be
as complicated and volatile as the cowboy

damn I just actually read this shit

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:44 (six years ago) link

Beginning to think maybe a rolling thread might be
as complicated and volatile as the cowboy

damn I just actually read this shit
together we'll break these chains of love

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:44 (six years ago) link

a+

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:45 (six years ago) link

don't give up
don't give up

together jonchi and mordy break these chains of love

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:49 (six years ago) link

(dunno what that means, it just rhymed good, lol)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:49 (six years ago) link

Also, I finally read her whole letter to the Los Angeles Times. It's a worthwhile read. It's much better than her detractors give her credit for. Here's the full text:

TO: Supervisors and selected colleagues of Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez

FROM: Alisa Valdes-Rodriguez, staff writer

This is my resignation from the Los Angeles Times. My reasons for leaving the Times range from the personal to the political, but in the end it is all political. Even the personal. The following are my reasons for leaving.

Reason 1

I came to this newspaper as part of something called the "Latino Initiative." At the time, I was not awake enough as a person to understand the horror of such a thing. I was not enlightened enough to realize that in the name of "diversity" the newspaper was committing an atrocity.

Now I am.

In the process of covering so-called "Latino" issues, I have stumbled upon a simple and disturbing fact: There is no such thing as a Latino. I have also seen this newspaper -- and most others -- butcher history and fact in an attempt to create this ethnic group.

When the Los Angeles Times writes of "Latinos" it often characterizes them as brown. It happens several times a week, usually. Most people in this area accept this interpretation. I do not. After all, my Navajo cousins from New Mexico are often approached on the street and spoken to in Spanish. They don't speak Spanish. They are brown, and, I am sure, would "look" Latino to most of my colleagues at this newspaper. But recent colonial history dictated they be born north of the Mexican border. They, like most of the people we call Latinos at this paper, are Indians. . . .

After extensive study of history, I believe "Latino" -- as used in the Los Angeles Times -- is the most recent attempt at genocide perpetrated against the native people of the Americas. I also posit this new genocide is far more dangerous than the old fashioned murder and relocation efforts.

Now, we simply rob people of their heritage, and force a new one upon them.

They are no longer Indians, with a 30,000 year claim to these lands; they are now immigrants, and "Latinos." . . .

By referring to the brown Indians in the U.S. who happen to come from Spanish speaking nations as "Latinos" we eradicate their ethnicities entirely, and pin to them a new set of stereotypes and expectations that in most cases simply do not fit. By perpetuating the myth that Indians who bear Spanish surnames are simply "Latino" -- and that Latino does not refer to anyone else -- we also deny Indians from Latin America a natural kinship to American Indians. DNA testing and blood type have shown most of the "brown" people in the Americas -- whether they live in Montana or Mexico City -- are descended from a small band of people who came here from Asia tens of thousands of years ago. Yet the Times has convinced itself and the general public that there is a "Latino" race of brown people, separate from this nation's Indians. It's idiotic. . . . When I attempted to write a commentary about the animated film The Road to El Dorado in order to address its misrepresentation of the genocide committed by the Spaniards against the native people of the Americas, I was told by the film editor my comparisons to the German holocaust were unjustified. (By some estimates, the Spaniards killed 10 times more people than the Nazis did -- most of it documented in the Spaniards' own journals.) He told me "holocaust" was too strong a word to use when talking about American Indians, and told me the word pertained only to the German holocaust. Any dictionary would have shown him that "holocaust" refers to any genocide committed against any people. The Los Angeles Times is located in perhaps the nation's largest Indian city, yet we deny there are Indians here. . . .

I am now carrying a child whose father is a Native American. His ancestors hail from the U.S. Southwest and from Northern and Central Mexico. I cannot in good conscience work for an institution that denies my child's inheritance to this land. I will cringe to see my child labeled "Latino" or "Hispanic" by virtue of a colonial last name and a brown skin color. I can no longer pretend to believe in the existence of "Latinos" when common sense and logic and an understanding of history point out there is no such thing, especially not in the way the Times uses the word.

Reason 2

Race. . . . Every day the Los Angeles Times runs an article about races of people the dominant class consider to be "other": Blacks, Asians, Latinos. Even as several other newspapers and news magazines make strides towards thinking of "race" in a new way, the Times is stuck in an outdated modality. The Miami Herald and the New York Times now make an effort to state regularly that "Latinos" may be of any "race"; while not an ideal portrayal of humans, in my opinion, it is still light years ahead of the racialist view of "Latinos" perpetuated by the Los Angeles Times.

To me, it is telling that the Times rarely, if ever, writes of those people categorized as "white" while identifying them by "race" for the heck of it. While we endlessly profile "Asian" authors and "Black" celebrities, we never classify the "white" people we write about as "white" unless they have committed a hate crime, or are being compared in a poll or study to "others." . . .

I cannot continue to lend my brain and efforts to an institution that so readily and shamelessly discriminates, stratifies and needlessly classifies people based upon what I -- and many social and physical scientists -- believe to be a false paradigm.

I love my salary. My benefits. I love the prompt response I get from people when I call and say I am a writer with the Los Angeles Times. But I do not love any of these things enough to sell my soul any longer in order to get them. I have tried to inspire change and enlightenment from within the newspaper, and have been met with confusion and snickers at best, and fierce opposition at worst. So, as long as the Los Angeles Times paints a daily portrait of the nation in terms of race, I cannot work there.

Reason 3

Lack of support. At risk of sounding boastful, I can say I am regarded among my peers an excellent writer. Yet I do not feel I have been embraced at the Times for the talents I have. In fact, I feel an effort has been made in some instances to squash the one thing that sets me apart in this field: my voice.

Daily, I read columns by people who are simply not smart enough or talented enough to write them. . . . I read about these people's personal lives, the foibles of their children, their narrow and uninspired views on race and ethnicity -- and nowhere do I find Los Angeles, or the nation, or the world, nowhere in this newspaper's columns do I find insight, or epiphany. . . .

I am not an idiot. And I know a hopeless battle when I face one. To stay at the Los Angeles Times and hope that my talent and ability and accomplishments will be fairly acknowledged and rewarded is unrealistic. This newspaper continues to reward mediocre men while insisting outstanding women jump through more and more hoops before ever getting similar reward. To stay under such circumstances would be to set myself up for failure and battle, two things I am no longer interested in. . . .

Reason 4

Mortality. How does the cliche go? Life is short.

At 31, expecting my first child, my life has suddenly come into brilliant focus. Since I was 15 years old I have written in my diaries of my dream: To write novels and live in the mountains outside of Albuquerque. For 16 years this dream has never changed. . . .

Is it vain to say I was born to write? To say journalism, daily journalism, has nearly beaten the innocent sort of love for the craft from me?

I wrote my first poem at 8, my first short story at 9. I stumbled onto journalism because writing was the only thing I did well enough to be paid to do it. And now, every time I write a profile of a celebrity who doesn't need the publicity, simply because that's how things are done, or every time I write about record sales or the Grammy awards or "Latino" artists, I pimp the very most sacred part of me.

Will I get paid to write novels? Maybe. Maybe not. But at this time in my life, I would rather get paid to do something completely unrelated to writing -- say, wait tables -- and write for the pleasure of it, than to be paid to write the way the dominant class believes I should write, about a world I don't see but they do.

So, one month from today, I will no longer work for the Los Angeles Times. I will work for my conscience, my soul, and my heart, and my child. If that means I live in a small room in the back of my father's house, so be it.

I will be happier there, writing my truth in "fiction," than I am here, writing your truth in "fact."

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:52 (six years ago) link

i'm not sure what there is to like about that letter.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:54 (six years ago) link

525,600 leeeeetterrrs

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 17:55 (six years ago) link

By perpetuating the myth that Indians who bear Spanish surnames are simply "Latino" -- and that Latino does not refer to anyone else -- we also deny Indians from Latin America a natural kinship to American Indians. DNA testing and blood type have shown most of the "brown" people in the Americas -- whether they live in Montana or Mexico City -- are descended from a small band of people who came here from Asia tens of thousands of years ago.

I'm pretty dumb sometimes and this isn't my field but that idea has never occurred to me and is v interesting.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 17:56 (six years ago) link

Once you remove most of the florid language, she makes some solid points about race and gender.

Some of this might be sour grapes aimed at editors who made non-biased decisions about her writing. Some of this is likely valid.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:04 (six years ago) link

i thought the word latino comes from latin america, ie a place where latin romance language (spanish, portuguese + french) are primarily spoken

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:06 (six years ago) link

(By some estimates, the Spaniards killed 10 times more people than the Nazis did -- most of it documented in the Spaniards' own journals.)

Even assuming she only means "Jews killed in the holocaust" (6 million) and not "people killed in the holocaust" (something like 11 million), and not "Innocent people killed by the Nazis during WWII" (I don't even know how many) -- that gives you 60 million indians "by some estimates" killed by the Spaniards. Most estimates of the entire Indian population of the Americas at that time are not that high.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:10 (six years ago) link

The U.S. Government has defined Hispanic or Latino persons as being "persons who trace their origin [to] . . . Central and South America, and other Spanish cultures."[12] The United States Census uses the ethnonym Hispanic or Latino to refer to "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American, or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race."[13] The Census Bureau also explains that "[o]rigin can be viewed as the heritage, nationality group, lineage, or country of birth of the person or the person’s ancestors before their arrival in the United States.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latino

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:10 (six years ago) link

xxxp To the extent that that is true, it's also a post-colonial imposition of language & culture and then of naming, in that it erases the ppl and culture and language that were there before...which were the same people and their culture and language who lived on the US side of the then-non-existent border, which if I understand this stuff was the Hopi and pueblo peoples (iirc "anasazi" is considered an insult).

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:11 (six years ago) link

Latino points to Spain and Portugal. I can understand why people of Native American descent are unhappy with the name.

The United States was formed by English speaking former British citizens. For obvious reasons, we don't refer to American-born citizens as Anglos.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:21 (six years ago) link

I take that back. I forgot we're a part of the Anglosphere.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:22 (six years ago) link

a lot of people from those spanish speaking countries dont even speak spanish as their first language, latino in that sense is a sloppy bullshit term, but so is cultural holocaust

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:26 (six years ago) link

the skin color type hierarchies that exist within these cultures is a lot more of a problem than english speakers using the word 'latino'. people either have a good grasp of the history of the region or don't, and people who don't aren't gonna be making assumptions based on the etymology of the word 'latino'.

iatee, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:31 (six years ago) link

i dont even speak latin

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:33 (six years ago) link

like the fact that the language is called 'spanish' is actually a lot more problematic because some people actually confuse latin america and spain as places...that exist... the word latino? who cares. you either know why there's a huge skin color spectrum in south america or you don't.

iatee, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:33 (six years ago) link

Rolling Afro-Latin music thread 2013 < good thread despite the cultural genocide title

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:35 (six years ago) link

xxxp To the extent that that is true, it's also a post-colonial imposition of language & culture and then of naming, in that it erases the ppl and culture and language that were there before...which were the same people and their culture and language who lived on the US side of the then-non-existent border, which if I understand this stuff was the Hopi and pueblo peoples (iirc "anasazi" is considered an insult).

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, January 11, 2013 1:11 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I get this, but (1) pretty much every cultural/ethnic/natural descriptor has an extremely problematic history and is imperfect at best if not downright arbitrary (2) her navajo cousins not withstanding, the vast majority of today's "latino" identified people can probably not easily trace their heritage back to a single indian group, and many have at least some spanish ancestry

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:35 (six years ago) link

I did know about native ppl in South America, I just never connected the shared heritage between them and southwestern US-ian native peoples and thought that it might be a problem to create some arbitrary distinctions and erase others. Like I said I'm pretty dumb sometimes.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:38 (six years ago) link

From: http://escalatingidentity.wordpress.com/2012/04/30/who-is-oakland-anti-oppression-politics-decolonization-and-the-state/

No individual or organization can speak for people of color, women, the world’s colonized populations, workers, or any demographic category as a whole – although activists of color, female and queer activists, and labor activists from the Global North routinely and arrogantly claim this right. These “representatives” and institutions speak on behalf of social categories which are not, in fact, communities of shared opinion. This representational politics tends to eradicate any space for political disagreement between individuals subsumed under the same identity categories.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:39 (six years ago) link

the vast majority of today's "latino" identified people can probably not easily trace their heritage back to a single indian group

i think this is less true than you think

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:42 (six years ago) link

actually that was my impression too. there are discrete ethnic groups in south american like the mayans who trace their heritage directly back to a historical native group but the vast majority does not.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:43 (six years ago) link

i dont have any figures but at the very least i object to the 'vast'

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:44 (six years ago) link

anyway this is kind of a funny digression to this thread

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:46 (six years ago) link

yeah there are tons of regions at least in mexico but i think this is true of all of latin america where a lot of the people living there part of a culture that stretches back to pre colonial times and they still speak the language and do a lot of the stuff, its an ongoing situation

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:48 (six years ago) link

then there are a lot of people of mixed heritage, and people of spanish etc decent

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:48 (six years ago) link

like the fact that the language is called 'spanish' is actually a lot more problematic because some people actually confuse latin america and spain as places...that exist... the word latino? who cares. you either know why there's a huge skin color spectrum in south america or you don't.

― iatee, Friday, January 11, 2013 10:33 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hell the fact that the language is called 'spanish' is problematic because of ethnic and linguistic nationalisms within Spain. Do you think the Catalunyans like that castellano is now known mostly as español? Not to mention the Basques.

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:49 (six years ago) link

but again you either know about this stuff or you don't but the word 'latin america' doesn't make you know about this stuff or not make you know about this stuff xp

iatee, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:49 (six years ago) link

I'm getting the impression that a substantial part of the reason native-descended ppl from Latin America & South America may not have strong ties to their ancestral native group is bc of Spanish conquest that broke up, displaced, erased, and recombined groups, so it's shitty to say NOW that they're not closely enough tied to it to "count" for something.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:50 (six years ago) link

nobody is saying that, it counts for whatever they want it to count for

iatee, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:51 (six years ago) link

That was in response to the vast majority of today's "latino" identified people can probably not easily trace their heritage back to a single indian group, and many have at least some spanish ancestry.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:51 (six years ago) link

I'm getting the impression that a substantial part of the reason native-descended ppl from Latin America & South America may not have strong ties to their ancestral native group is bc of Spanish conquest that broke up, displaced, erased, and recombined groups, so it's shitty to say NOW that they're not closely enough tied to it to "count" for something.

― grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, January 11, 2013 1:50 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm not saying it doesn't "count" for something! I'm just saying I don't quite understand how she thinks the LA Times ought to identify people (unless she's just saying ethnicity isn't relevant at all in which case I don't know why it matters that her cousins are "Navajo" either).

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:54 (six years ago) link

Sorry guys, I wasn't trying to start a [REDACTED] with that post.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:54 (six years ago) link

seems clear she prefers "native american" or "american indian"

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:55 (six years ago) link

race peace?

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:55 (six years ago) link

seems like the simplest thing to do would be to just call yourself CAUCASIAN [LATINO] as per so many job applications, government forms, and beauty pageant entrance packets

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:57 (six years ago) link

many ppl called 'latino' arent 'caucasian' tho. i think this is part of her point.

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:57 (six years ago) link

i don't think she has a point

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:58 (six years ago) link

about anything

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:58 (six years ago) link

ever

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:58 (six years ago) link

she has at least 4 points in her la times resignation letter, she numbers them and everything

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 18:59 (six years ago) link

tbf i haven't read anything in this thread since the last time i posted

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 18:59 (six years ago) link

seems clear she prefers "native american" or "american indian"

― max, Friday, January 11, 2013 1:55 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ok, but this wouldn't describe a lot of people who are described as latino today who are of mixed european-indian descent. And it would also suggest that we shouldn't refer to people as "Cuban" or "Mexican" or "Guatemalan" because those are all imposed by colonialism too. In any case, this is a debate that has been going on for decades and I think it's kind of ridiculous to call out the LA Times as being complicit in some kind of cultural genocide for using the prevailing term, a term that seems to have been arrived at for the moment as the result of an ongoing debate and not just imposed by some racists.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:00 (six years ago) link

I see we've kinda moved on from the original clusterfuck, but according to someone on Twitter who contacted her, the original blog post was taken down at the request of her agent, not publisher. I hadn't remembered to consider the influence of the agent in all this, another party whose self-interest complicates things.

says a future man to his crystal son (reddening), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:01 (six years ago) link

Ok, but this wouldn't describe a lot of people who are described as latino today who are of mixed european-indian descent.

i think if a person is of mixed euro-indian descent its "okay" by most standards to refer to them as native american or american indian

And it would also suggest that we shouldn't refer to people as "Cuban" or "Mexican" or "Guatemalan" because those are all imposed by colonialism too.

i dont really see why

In any case, this is a debate that has been going on for decades

yes

and I think it's kind of ridiculous to call out the LA Times as being complicit in some kind of cultural genocide for using the prevailing term, a term that seems to have been arrived at for the moment as the result of an ongoing debate and not just imposed by some racists.

yeah i mean i guess but i also dont feel all that compelled to condemn her for her at-the-time private resignation letter. i mean she made her views clear, she quit, the la times still calls people latino. she lost, im not gonna kick her while shes on the ground.

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:03 (six years ago) link

and not just imposed by some racists.

Like I am not trying to spin something out of control here but people keep walking right into it? Isn't it unavoidably the case that everything w/r/t race is imposed by some racists because the winners have mostly always gotten to set the terms?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:03 (six years ago) link

i am kind of with in orbit and max here, i kind of feel like all the objections reinforce her points; plus, sidequestion--this is her letter of resignation? was this meant to be published or did she just send it to them and they made the call to publish this (w/her consent presumably)(probably already covered here, i'm just fuzzy w/ the detail of this partic incident)

also calling this "Cultural genocide" didnt originate with her did it? that seems to be one of the things zachlyon kind of brought up...?

gullible lochinski (Drugs A. Money), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:04 (six years ago) link

ok max p much got to every single one of my points nm

gullible lochinski (Drugs A. Money), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:04 (six years ago) link

like just as you feel it ridiculous for her to call out the la times i feel it a little ridiculous for a bunch of guys on a message board to feel the need to go out of their collective way to call her out for something thats 10 years old, that she likely doesnt support anymore, that has literally no bearing on their lives or conduct

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:05 (six years ago) link

I see we've kinda moved on from the original clusterfuck, but according to someone on Twitter who contacted her, the original blog post was taken down at the request of her agent, not publisher. I hadn't remembered to consider the influence of the agent in all this, another party whose self-interest complicates things.

― says a future man to his crystal son (reddening), Friday, January 11, 2013 1:01 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I wonder if her agent told her to take down this tweet:

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
To those of you asking about the disappearance of yesterday's blog post: I was asked to take it down by my publisher, and did. The end.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:05 (six years ago) link

if we cant call people out for stuff that has no bearing on our lives or conduct we might as well just go home

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:06 (six years ago) link

;_;

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:08 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
To those of you asking about the disappearance of yesterday's blog post: I was asked to take it down by my publisher, and did. The end.

LOL

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:13 (six years ago) link

that's an amazing URL

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:14 (six years ago) link

is there a personality type where people are addicted to conflict? i'm not trying to be funny here, is there a name for that kind of thing?

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:16 (six years ago) link

If we could harness this thread, it could provide enough energy to light 40,000 homes, and thereby generate irony in quantities too large to measure.

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:16 (six years ago) link

and yes the cultural genocide of using the term 'latina' seems to have become less of an acute problem now

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:17 (six years ago) link

is there a personality type where people are addicted to conflict? i'm not trying to be funny here, is there a name for that kind of thing?

― goole, Friday, January 11, 2013 2:16 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

iirc that applies to borderline personality disorder

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:18 (six years ago) link

the agent thing is funny if true

according to someone on Twitter who contacted her

redding, do you have a link to this someone?

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:19 (six years ago) link

there was a line in the new episode of Justified - 'You run into an asshole in the morning, you ran into an asshole. You run into assholes all day, you're the asshole.'

all the drama seems v exhausting

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:23 (six years ago) link

is there a personality type where people are addicted to conflict? i'm not trying to be funny here, is there a name for that kind of thing?

― goole, Friday, January 11, 2013 2:16 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

americans!

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:24 (six years ago) link

ilxors

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:24 (six years ago) link

russians!

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:25 (six years ago) link

latinos

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:25 (six years ago) link

Certainly not the French! Wocka wocka

sleepingbag, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:26 (six years ago) link

ultimate fighting

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:26 (six years ago) link

humans

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:26 (six years ago) link

hummus

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 19:27 (six years ago) link

HEY

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:28 (six years ago) link

Re: agent thing, it was the author of this salon article:

http://www.salon.com/2013/01/11/alisa_valdes_anti_feminist_romance_not_so_romantic/

says a future man to his crystal son (reddening), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:34 (six years ago) link

http://missalisasplace.com/2012/12/24/alisa-responds-to-the-ny-posts-hatchet-job-on-her-memoir/

I think Valdez would be better off is she stopped publishing these tweets and blog posts before she deletes them.

cached

For instance, the Post piece claims that in my memoir I offer “lessons for women” about how to live their lives. I do not. In fact, I am very careful in the book to state the following, in anticipation of exactly this kind of criticism:

I don’t intend for this book to be anything but my own life story and my own personal observations and change. I’m not writing handbook. It’s more of a diary. (page 104)

The piece also says that I give women advice to allow alpha men to cheat — a total fabrication that has unfortunately been echoed already on the website Jezebel, which did what blogs often do best, running a nasty piece that just copied the newspaper piece whilst adding, you know, curse words.

Which reminds me of

What I mean by this is that while I set out to write a memoir that was a love letter to a man I was deeply in love with, a man who challenged me in myriad ways, a man who changed my life profoundly, a man I respected and honored greatly at the time, what I actually wrote was a handbook for women on how to fall in love with a manipulative, controlling, abusive narcissist.

tbf, the post is a horrible rag and I stand in solidarity with Valdez on the fact that they are a bag of dicks

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:47 (six years ago) link

thanks for the link, redding

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 19:48 (six years ago) link

i think if a person is of mixed euro-indian descent its "okay" by most standards to refer to them as native american or american indian

If you think this is true, I suggest you try asking random Mexican people if they are Mayan. See how that goes for you.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:15 (six years ago) link

Anyone tried this yet?

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:23 (six years ago) link

lol it had been 8 minutes, give ppl some time

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:24 (six years ago) link

Even better is to do something like, say, go up to someone from Sonora and say "So you're from Zacatecas, right?"

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:26 (six years ago) link

Go to someone from, I dunno, Chiapas or Oaxaca and say "You all do mariachi music down there, yeah?"

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:27 (six years ago) link

'i'm an aztec, motherfucker'

mookieproof, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:27 (six years ago) link

No results found for "i'm taino btw".

velko, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:30 (six years ago) link

all I'm saying is that a lot of people of mixed euro/indian descent do not identify as "native american" and would not be "okay" with being labeled native american.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:35 (six years ago) link

The Aristotelian penchant for categorization and sub-categorization always breaks down at some point before reaching a satisfactory system of division.

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:48 (six years ago) link

you know what i can't stand around here? people not naming names.

― goole, Friday, January 11, 2013 12:14 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol okay it was Mordy and Aimless i was mad at after reading the first half of this thread. i don't know if i'm one of the ilx posters Mordy was referring to, but i am def self-righteous and likely bask in the pieties he was referring to as well.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:49 (six years ago) link

i would agree w/ horseshoe's self-assessment there

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:54 (six years ago) link

a basking shark

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:54 (six years ago) link

i think if a person is of mixed euro-indian descent its "okay" by most standards to refer to them as native american or american indian

If you think this is true, I suggest you try asking random Mexican people if they are Mayan. See how that goes for you.

― drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, January 11, 2013 3:15 PM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't think "mayan" and "american indian" are the same thing hurting!

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:55 (six years ago) link

you drive me crazy but to be really real, the weirdo metaphor of basking in pieties delights me.

xxp don't get it twisted; you're wrong about everything

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:55 (six years ago) link

oh yeah i was mad at Hurting too

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:55 (six years ago) link

i love horseshoe and think she is one of the owningest posters on this board fwiw, ive never read her posts as pious or self-righteous and think shes an incredibly thoughtful and self-critical person

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:55 (six years ago) link

aw max. i love you too.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:57 (six years ago) link

all I'm saying is that a lot of people of mixed euro/indian descent do not identify as "native american" and would not be "okay" with being labeled native american.

― drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, January 11, 2013 3:35 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know a lot about how people from central and south america self identify i guess. ty for bringing that knowledge to this thread.

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:57 (six years ago) link

in my mind every valdes defender on this thread is wearing a papier-mâché halo over their heads - "no i'm the most sympathetic ilxor," "no, i am!"

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:57 (six years ago) link

feel like yr bringing some of yr own baggage here big guy

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:58 (six years ago) link

in my mind you're wearing a t-shirt that says "i'm not a bitch, i'm just honest"

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:58 (six years ago) link

haha i think i just figured out who al leong is

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:59 (six years ago) link

Pretty sure I am the most self-righteous ilxor, I just polished my halo this morning.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 20:59 (six years ago) link

feel like anyone who believes anything valdes says about anything is setting themselves up for a big shock during the reveal

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:59 (six years ago) link

"no im the most honest ilxor!" "no i am!"

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:00 (six years ago) link

honestly is more important to me than sanctimony

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:00 (six years ago) link

in my mind everyone in this thread is an anthropomorphised cat flying around in a disco in second life

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:01 (six years ago) link

seems clear that sanctimony is p important to you too

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:02 (six years ago) link

wd rather take abuse survivors' words at face value and be surprised every once in a while than the other option tbh

1staethyr, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:02 (six years ago) link

oh yeah? where have i been sanctimonious, max?

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:03 (six years ago) link

honestly is more important to me than sanctimony

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 4:00 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is the most sanctimonious post on the entire thread

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:03 (six years ago) link

do you know what the word sanctimonious means?

(quick, google it)

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:03 (six years ago) link

hey is it necessary to be like that, dude?

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:05 (six years ago) link

apparently, yes

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:05 (six years ago) link

sorry i'm not being cuddlestein here. hugs all around, kip guys!

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:06 (six years ago) link

ahhh you were just stating facts not demonstrating yr clear moral superiority. my mistake. its cool.

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:06 (six years ago) link

lmao you sure hate sanctimony. thats why you keep telling us why youre better than other people.

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:06 (six years ago) link

better than you for sure

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:06 (six years ago) link

horseshoe is awesome

tbh i'm not even sure what mordy's shtick is

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:06 (six years ago) link

i guess if you work for nick denton it doesn't bother you when someone published gross sexist bullshit

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:07 (six years ago) link

my dude. chill out.

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:08 (six years ago) link

oh hey i wonder how gross kate middleton's new portrait is. i wonder if there's a website that will cater to my curiosity

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:08 (six years ago) link

oh wait i think i figured it out

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:09 (six years ago) link

calmer than your are

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:09 (six years ago) link

keep flaming out here Mordy, I'm enjoying the realization that I am not the only person here who has major problems with you

sleeve, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:09 (six years ago) link

lol

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:11 (six years ago) link

i'm feeling pretty calm + i'll take all comers. tho sleeve i think we've discussed this before and i'm trying not to retread.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:11 (six years ago) link

sheesh

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:11 (six years ago) link

wd rather take abuse survivors' words at face value and be surprised every once in a while than the other option tbh

Agreed. If that makes me sanctimonious or self-righteous, oh well.

Solange and thanks for all the fish (Nicole), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:12 (six years ago) link

calmer than your are

― ♨ (am0n), Friday, January 11, 2013 3:09 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

:)

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:12 (six years ago) link

again mordy it'd be nice if you'd say who and what is that's sanctimonious instead of blithely announcing that your honesty is better than it (i'm assuming you mean it's you that's providing the honesty here)

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:14 (six years ago) link

i'm feeling pretty calm + i'll take all comers.
― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 4:11 PM

lol @ this get-in-the-octagon shit

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:14 (six years ago) link

it'd be nice if it's incumbent upon you as an honest person to

xp

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:15 (six years ago) link

sanctimony connotes affectation, diningenuity, or hypocrisy fwiw #vocabulary #words

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:15 (six years ago) link

to be completely honest, i am not capable of remaining measured when people rip apart a claim of abuse while betraying a seeming ignorance of how that kind of abuse typically affects victims. for personal reasons, so i should never have posted what i posted last night. i was really grateful to emily and elmo, though, and don't think either of them can be described as self-righteous. also as long as everyone's being unnecessarily mean, your arms are too short to box with max, Mordy.

also i was grateful to in orbit and Nicole while reading this thread last night. yes i will continue to thrillingly catalogue my reactions to the first half of this thread no you cannot stop me.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:16 (six years ago) link

"a seeming ignorance of how that kind of abuse typically affects victims" is key

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:17 (six years ago) link

all I'm saying is that a lot of people of mixed euro/indian descent do not identify as "native american" and would not be "okay" with being labeled native american.

― drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, January 11, 2013 3:35 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

you know a lot about how people from central and south america self identify i guess. ty for bringing that knowledge to this thread.

― max, Friday, 11 January 2013 20:57 (14 minutes ago) Permalink

and you know a lot about what it is "okay" to label them

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:17 (six years ago) link

hey thank you for that link Edward, Susie Bright OTM as usual.

sleeve, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:18 (six years ago) link

i guess were all experts

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:18 (six years ago) link

she lied about being bisexual, she lied about being bipolar, she wrote a letter to her former employer equating using the term latino w/ cultural genocide (and called it worse than literal genocide), she wrote a post where she said the cowboy she was no longer with - who she wrote a love letter book to - abused her, deleted it and said it was because her publisher made her, then claimed it was because her agent made her, went on the radio and promoted the book like nothing had ever happened, even in discussing the deleted post said that she still felt like he tamed her for her current boyfriend... for anyone to read all these facts and then exclaim with horror that we can't dare discuss these facts without tarnishing her status as an abuse survivor is imho being sanctimonious and full of shit.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:19 (six years ago) link

i'm an expert at discerning whose concern is genuine and who's just faking it as a display of moral superiority

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:19 (six years ago) link

call me a men's rights sexist advocate but that's the kind of thing that i feel is dishonest. the first link buzza posted to her history someone jumped to ask whether that means we should consider her a liar. we don't have to make statements like we're sure she's lying or not but it's another kind of lie to pretend that all of this isn't relevant or true.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:20 (six years ago) link

90% of these things happened before she was even in a relationship with this cowboy.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:20 (six years ago) link

Are you stoned? Stop being a dick.

go to party leather (ENBB), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:22 (six years ago) link

dude, Alisa definitely has written a bunch of M@riss@-like stuff, but ...

sarahell, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:23 (six years ago) link

Why is it so important to you for other people to judge her as harshly as you want to, Mordy?

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:23 (six years ago) link

we don't know for certain she "lied" about being bisexual, or bipolar -- that is, we don't know for certain she ISN'T bisexual, or bipolar. all we know is she mounted really incredible arguments saying she never said so in the first place.

no, she isn't 'credible' in that she has changed her story about x or y experience quite drastically.

but my whole position is that being very circumspect about what the truth is about valdes' experience very much includes being circumspect about saying the abuse didn't happen.

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:23 (six years ago) link

i feel like when dealing with people who may have "issues" it's often best to think about them empathetically (and that goes for all people really), especially when one does not have a particular dog in that fight, since who knows what someone is going through? it's not really a "loss" in my opinion to hold back. whatever her issues are, what she's said isn't so horrific as to preclude empathy.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:24 (six years ago) link

it's another kind of lie to pretend that all of this isn't relevant or true.

hahahahahaha now it is revealed who the REAL liar is DO YOU SEE

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:24 (six years ago) link

oh i get it. Mordy is a liar.

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:25 (six years ago) link

i'm not going to call her A Liar to the extent that all things she has said about anything now Are Lies a priori. i mean, who the fuck knows? i don't, mordy, you don't either

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:25 (six years ago) link

I like Suzie Bright.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:25 (six years ago) link

she's not here. i would offer her sympathy if she were. i don't feel like expressly offering her sympathy in front of a bunch of ppl who don't know her makes me a better person.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:26 (six years ago) link

cuz that's what its about

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:26 (six years ago) link

i believe that she told askellen that she was a bisexual and then denied that she said that in the interview

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:26 (six years ago) link

i believe she posted on her blog that she is bipolar and then denied that she had ever written it

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:26 (six years ago) link

i believe in fairy winkle

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:27 (six years ago) link

I believe I can fly
I believe I can touch the sky

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:27 (six years ago) link

yes, but do either of those events mean you know she lied in the first place? not knowing one way or another means NOT KNOWING ONE WAY OR ANOTHER

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:27 (six years ago) link

I believe in life after love

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:28 (six years ago) link

I believe..that love is the answer

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:28 (six years ago) link

i know she lied in the first place or the second place. it had to be one.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:28 (six years ago) link

worst segment of npr's "this i believe" EVER

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:28 (six years ago) link

nobody cares about what kind of person you are. i'm not a good person, i just get fucking mad when people start authoritatively posting at length about how some woman is clearly lying about what her boyfriend did to her in private like they know shit about dick like am i at a rape trial or some shit?

xxxxxxxxp

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:28 (six years ago) link

except no one did that. to say someone did it to make shit up just so you can denounce it.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:29 (six years ago) link

is to*

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:29 (six years ago) link

she's not here. i would try to pin her down to some reality principle if she were (or probably would just let the whole thing go, tbh, unless some part of my life were at stake). but since it's just people figuring out things via a miasma of highly mediated evidence, well...

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:30 (six years ago) link

when the backwards B carving woman claimed someone attacked her, was it insensitive to point out that it might not be true? maybe. idk, i guess i'm not worried about appearing insensitive on ilx. i try to be sensitive irl to real ppl. not on a thread called Literary Clusterfucks 2013 in front of ilx posters.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:31 (six years ago) link

listen, Mordy, let's just posit that she's a liar and her boyfriend abused her, okay? just as an experiment. the experience of abuse makes you doubt your own judgment of reality. that's just another way to explain conflicting accounts.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:31 (six years ago) link

i think that could certainly be true!

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:32 (six years ago) link

i think what you would say about doubting backwards B carving woman is that certain ilxors' race pieties trump their gender pieties in that instance. it seems like an exhausting perspective on the world tbh.

xp okay i guess i should just reread your posts that made me so mad last night but i think i probably will not

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:33 (six years ago) link

the worst case, in my view, might be what's happening: it's possible that the cowboy was an abusive rapist, but valdes really does now believe all that crap about women being happier submitting to a real man, despite that.

but in general i don't like filling in with speculation what nobody has yet found out by asking.

― goole, Thursday, January 10, 2013 3:10 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:33 (six years ago) link

"a seeming ignorance of how that kind of abuse typically affects victims" is key

except most victims of that kind of abuse do not go out and write a book length love letter to their abuser, sell it for a $400,000 advance, decide that their relationship was actually horrific, post that conclusion to their blog, retract it, then go out on a book tour and sell that book as an honest depiction of how awful feminism is and how wonderful abusive relationships are, after all.

this adds a few untypical features to the same old story.

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:34 (six years ago) link

theres a piece coming out in a little bit on a nick denton website that more or less confirms the worst case

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:34 (six years ago) link

well that's because most abuse victims aren't fairly high-profile authors

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:34 (six years ago) link

from p much the beginning this thread has followed the typical pattern when a woman makes an allegation of abuse or rape, which is that the discourse focuses around her personally instead of on her claims or anyone else involved (like e.g. the accused). even if no one itt has specifically said that she is "clearly lying about what her boyfriend did to her in private" the fact is that it, you know, looks just a lil bit bad when all anyone is talking about in the context of her abuse allegations is whether or not she is crazy or whether or not she lied in unrelated incidents in the past

lots of xps i guess

1staethyr, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:34 (six years ago) link

max i don't read lifehacker

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:35 (six years ago) link

theres a piece coming out in a little bit on a nick cannon website that more or less confirms that this thread has talent

Sufjan Grafton, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:36 (six years ago) link

i'm perfectly willing to believe that cowboy abused her. he seems skeevy from the youtube clip i saw of him. it certainly wouldn't surprise me. but if he did, i think she has a responsibility to disavow the book that is, according to her, a primer about and love letter to falling in love with a manipulative abusive man. that's all i've ever believed.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:36 (six years ago) link

even if no one itt has specifically said that she is "clearly lying about what her boyfriend did to her in private"

p. sure no one here thinks this, actually

mookieproof, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:37 (six years ago) link

well horseshoe, mordy's explained that this woman is responsible for perpetuating abuse, i mean she's RESPONSIBLE for it, do you see. if someone reads her book and then ends up in an abusive relationship, well then it's the fault of the author for not adequately warning her. i mean, abusers are gonna be abusive, that's just HOW THEY ARE, how could we ever hold THEM to account?

in short, mordy, you're taking the long way around to blame the victim and it's super weird and gross.

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:38 (six years ago) link

yeah, that's bullshit elmo

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:39 (six years ago) link

oh okay, that was what made me mad. people talking about what her responsibility is.

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:39 (six years ago) link

yeah the reliance on responsibility in Mordy's account is worth digging into but idk what to think about that yet

xps!

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:40 (six years ago) link

then we're on totally different wave-lengths. i don't see why she doesn't have a responsibility for the literature she writes.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:40 (six years ago) link

yeah, that's bullshit elmo

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 4:39 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

http://hiphopwired.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/sad-elmo.jpg

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:41 (six years ago) link

seems like a sad story. would prefer to see it as a postmodern stunt about utter futility of sex and romance.

ryan, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:41 (six years ago) link

it would be one thing if i said she deserved to be abused or that she was asking for it or that she was in some other way to blame for the abuse, but that's obviously not what i'm suggesting and i would never say or think that

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:42 (six years ago) link

holding her to some kind of standard of integrity when she's clearly not really in control of a whole lot right now is weird to me. Like I understand that those principles might be important to you personally but to decry her whole situation because she doesn't adhere to some predetermined notion of How She Should Behave In This Situation is, well...I get it, but I don't get it and I don't get trying to be all DO U SEE when the 'evidence' is so murky that no one knows WHAT the fuck her real story is and that's the whole point of this thread!!

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:43 (six years ago) link

ugh

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:43 (six years ago) link

ppl aren't acting at all times w/in a vacuum where they have absolute agency, or like, "shit is complicated sometimes" idk

1staethyr, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:43 (six years ago) link

you just had your psyche and body violated for years by a man who felt like he owned you! here's what you should be doing about that experience! substitute my judgment for your own!

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:44 (six years ago) link

like i am pretty sure i hate woman-penned anti-feminist tracts more than all the next guys but can we not proclaim loudly and authoritatively what people should do after such things on a rihanna-is-so-irresponsible-think-of-the-young-girls tip? let's keep an eye on who's really responsible, you know?

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:45 (six years ago) link

TERMINATOR
Why?

JOHN
Whattaya mean, why? 'Cause you can't!

TERMINATOR
Why?

JOHN
You just can't, okay? Trust me on this.

Terminator doesn't get it.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:45 (six years ago) link

<3

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:46 (six years ago) link

Abuse is not an excuse for perpetuating abuse, which is what pushing this book on her audience is doing.

― Mordy, Thursday, January 10, 2013 11:45 PM (Yesterday)

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:46 (six years ago) link

it's okay to just be generally grossed out by the entire situation though right?

maura, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:46 (six years ago) link

ha i'd never really considered that exchange from T2. pretty profound, tbh

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:47 (six years ago) link

xpost yep, that's kinda why I'm here

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:47 (six years ago) link

I think everyone is generally grossed out by the entire situation

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:47 (six years ago) link

How does her book compare to "getting back together with chris brown" on the responsibility scale? It seems that some posters think it's ok to criticize rihanna for her situation but not Valdez for hers?

Sufjan Grafton, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:47 (six years ago) link

not if one of the ppl you're grossed out at is valdes apparently

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:47 (six years ago) link

yeah i mean, i stopped reading the thread early on, i think a bunch of stuff about how this lady is unappealing was eventually posted, which i have no trouble believing. fuck a bunch of things that people dub "post-feminist" i was just mad at all the long-ass this probably never happened also she's doing abuse survival wrong shit.

xxxxp to maura

horseshoe, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:50 (six years ago) link

I'm with mordy, who knows how many books-a-million customers alisa valdes is raping right now, why doesn't anyone care

son of telegram sam (Edward III), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:50 (six years ago) link

so if this author was abused, then publicly disclosed it, then recanted that disclosure, then she's responsible for perpetuating abuse, according to you're logic. qed?

i mean, if that's not "blaming the victim" then i'm not sure what you'd call it

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:51 (six years ago) link

your. ugh.

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:51 (six years ago) link

I used the word "gross" A LOT OF TIMES up-thread, above the fold. The grossness of a lot of the general situation doesn't preclude a less blamey and insistent take on...well, anything, though.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:51 (six years ago) link

you skipped a step "if she continues to market and promote a book that depicts an abusive relationship as healthy and natural"

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:51 (six years ago) link

well, then, that changes EVERYTHING

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:52 (six years ago) link

it's okay tho bc it's a part of her survival process

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:52 (six years ago) link

If this hadn't turned out to be an abusive relationship I would still be pretty unhappy with a book like this being written, being as it's more warmed over "MEN DOMINATE WOMEN BECAUSE OF BIOLOGY" garbage. I find a person who would write that kind of book to be of pretty poor intelligence, character and judgment, and at least upthread I thought things had kind of come to an understanding that it's not mutually exclusive that she's a person who got trapped in a horrible situation that is deserving of sympathy and also that she deserves criticism for her book in the first place. A book that she got paid $400,000 to write, btw, a lot of fucking money. That said, I recognize there may not be any easy course of action for her to take at this point.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:52 (six years ago) link

And then Valdes publishes this today.

― Ned Raggett, Thursday, January 10, 2013 1:15 AM (Yesterday)

since (Yesterday) she has yet to clarify things to my liking so i will judge her a rape enabler

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:53 (six years ago) link

let's say that someone else wrote the same book but as a biography of valdes based on interviews, and then it turned out that valdes was being abused and the interviews were lies. should that person continue to promote a book that is now clearly about abuse written in the idiom + context of an abuser knowing what they now know?

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:54 (six years ago) link

should they, no. should valdes, in a world where she's not a potentially emotionally messed up abuse survivor, i guess not. however

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:55 (six years ago) link

that's all then. if you believe she doesn't have a choice bc she is still recovering from the abuse, fine. i'm not denying that might be true. but she should stop promoting it. that would be the right thing to do.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:56 (six years ago) link

however

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:56 (six years ago) link

it's been like a day and she's not mordy.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 21:57 (six years ago) link

i don't know what she is or isn't and neither do you

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:57 (six years ago) link

lol obv i know she's not a mordy

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:57 (six years ago) link

strictly speaking i can't be that certain, but i take you at your word

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:58 (six years ago) link

fwiw i don't have a history of claiming i'm not other people who i then turn out to be

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:58 (six years ago) link

I freely admit that idgi.

To me it is one thing to understand that abuse can render a victim into a place of extreme confusion about themselves, their relationship to their abuser, and what love really is, or what is true any more, leadnig them to appear wildly erratic in their actions, and self-contradictory from one day to the next, until they have finally undergone a long and difficult process of healing. My wife was abused as a child and it still affects her at age 60+. I get that part.

It seems to me to be another thing entirely to expect everyone to refrain from pointing out that the person is contradicting themselves from one day to the next, acting erratically, completely confused about their feelings, themselves, and their relationship with their abuser, because as we know the poor victim cannot help acting that way. What way? Oh, we cannot say that there is anything wrong with how they are acting or that it would be better to act any other way. Or that their frequent self-contradiction is any different from being clear-minded and level-headed, because this shows a lack of empathy. It is expected behavior, therefore it is beyond reproach?

That is what some of the angry ilxors seem to me to be saying here. That's what I Don't Get.

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 21:59 (six years ago) link

it's a HUGE leap between saying that promoting the book is unethical and the conclusion you've reached, accusing her of PERPETUATING ABUSE

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:00 (six years ago) link

ok, get over it. i think it's a shitty book that puts some toxic ideas out into the culture but if you think i was being hyperbolic then i will agree

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:01 (six years ago) link

yet again a conversation about abuse accusations has turned into a conversation about the moral character of the accuser. i see u rape culture ;)

1staethyr, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:01 (six years ago) link

i think that is sanctimonious ^

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:02 (six years ago) link

you would

sleeve, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:02 (six years ago) link

haha I WAS JUST BEING RHETORICAL hey fuck you

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:03 (six years ago) link

it's difficult to square the seemingly paradoxical notions that a person can be a victim of abuse/oppression/etc and their behavior can only be understood in that context and then, as we so often do in the very next breath, assert that they are personally responsible for their own actions regardless of the larger determinative context. but I think that's exactly the kind of complex thinking these kinds of situations ask of us. You can try to be attentive to both.

ryan, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:03 (six years ago) link

*punches alien* welcome to the kyriarchy

max, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:04 (six years ago) link

it's difficult to square the seemingly paradoxical notions that a person can be a victim of abuse/oppression/etc and their behavior can only be understood in that context and then, as we so often do in the very next breath, assert that they are personally responsible for their own actions regardless of the larger determinative context. but I think that's exactly the kind of complex thinking these kinds of situations ask of us. You can try to be attentive to both.

― ryan, Friday, January 11, 2013 5:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

solid post

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:05 (six years ago) link

what a strange license plate

how's life, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:06 (six years ago) link

Contradicting oneself and acting erratically are not qualities to be cherished and encouraged. They are part of the damage inflicted by the abuse. Pointing these out as undesirable behavior is not the same as taking sides against a victim. It is something they need to see, acknowledge and heal from. They are part of the pathology of abuse, not symptoms of a lack of moral fiber. But that doesn't make them good, or right, or even neutral qualities.

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:09 (six years ago) link

This has been Literary Clusterfucks 2013. Tune in next year for, Literary Clusterfucks 2014. Thank you for joining us.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:10 (six years ago) link

donations for Literary Clusterfucks come to us from Pew Charitable Trusts

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:11 (six years ago) link

or Pugh
or however it's spelled

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:11 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
"Flew me to places I'd never been, until you put me down." Taylor Swift sums it up. #dichotomyisnotalie

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:12 (six years ago) link

WHY DO PPL CARE SO MUCH IF SHE IS GOOD OR BAD OR NEUTRAL JESUS CHRIST stop needing to judge the situation that doesn't involve you for like ONE SECOND. Speculating and wondering what's happening behind the scenes and reading her writing, even not LIKING her writing, fine, but the emphasis on reaching a definitive judgement is SO WEIRD and all lofty like.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:12 (six years ago) link

i've only speculated in this thread i have no inside information

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:13 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
Why are Sociopaths Considered Attractive | The Body Language Attraction...

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:14 (six years ago) link

we ard all sexperts

how's life, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:14 (six years ago) link

http://thebodylanguageattraction.com/why-are-sociopaths-considered-attractive/

Male sociopaths are successful with women because they readily know how to charm and attract women as if they are the masters of psychology of attraction. Indeed, they appear open and friendly to women from the start which makes them likable. They can make a few compliments which can make a lady feel pretty good. They will also appear appropriate and stylish to women – always smartly dressed and organized in appearance or presentation.

The typical sociopath has a character trait that so many men lack, CONFIDENCE. Nearly every male in the world that suffers from their own psychological problems related to never being able to find a female to care for them.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:15 (six years ago) link

what

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:16 (six years ago) link

WHY DO PPL CARE SO MUCH IF SHE IS GOOD OR BAD OR NEUTRAL

Her specific actions can be discussed without making universal and absolute judgements about her moral worth, can't they?

Aimless, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:16 (six years ago) link

Mordy tbh I don't get where you're going with this

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

Starting to feel like I opened a vortex to Planet Fuck You with this thread.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

the body language attraction dot com

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

lol obv i know she's not a mordy

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 4:57 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

how do you know

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

mordy you neednt drive it into the ground

mookieproof, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:17 (six years ago) link

well i've never dated a cowboy

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:18 (six years ago) link

i have been waiting in quiet dread for ilx to consider late 2012's "what's good about psychotics" trendlet

goole, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:18 (six years ago) link

In my mind everyone is now at the second life mall, buying antlers and laser eyes.

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:18 (six years ago) link

the body language attraction

dot com

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:20 (six years ago) link

#dichotomyisnotalie

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:20 (six years ago) link

there's usually a point I reach in these obsessive/manic argument threads where I think "maybe I ought to give my old therapist a call"

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:21 (six years ago) link

addadicktomynatalie

how's life, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:22 (six years ago) link

Nearly every male in the world that suffers from their own psychological problems related to never being able to find a female to care for them.

If this sentence even made sense it would be hilarious.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:23 (six years ago) link

mordy, i can't imagine why you would post anything about sociopaths unless it's a bizarre attempt to pathologize people who commit abuse

fueled by satanism, violence, and sodomy (elmo argonaut), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:24 (six years ago) link

lol elmo

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:25 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
Why are Sociopaths Considered Attractive | The Body Language Attraction...

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 5:14 PM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:25 (six years ago) link

hey i gotta run, but it's been unreal.

Mordy, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:25 (six years ago) link

#dichotomyisnotalie

I keep trying to read this in a way that makes it rhyme

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:26 (six years ago) link

with "totally," right? Me too.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:27 (six years ago) link

or actually I guess it would be more logical to just have it rhyme with "dichotomy"

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:27 (six years ago) link

#mydickisnotalie by my dick

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:27 (six years ago) link

i just want to say that although i dont think everything mordys said itt is otm i sympathize w/him, feel like hes being a lil bit attacked w some fuzzy logic, tho tbf hes done some of that himself too

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:27 (six years ago) link

okay lol AP

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:28 (six years ago) link

HAHAHAHA

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:28 (six years ago) link

this thread is long. do i need to read it? kinda passed me by...

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:29 (six years ago) link

isn't there still supposed to be a big gawker reveal-all article coming or was that a joke. I am torn between wanting to read it and wanting to just take some hallucenogenics and zone the fuck out of life right now.

drunk 'n' white's elements of style (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:30 (six years ago) link

i'm still waiting for the ghetto hikes expose!

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:31 (six years ago) link

scot everyone is mad and we didnt really get anywhere and its a p depressing horrible story w no resolution or even dependable facts, so idk let yr conscience guide you

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:32 (six years ago) link

conscience or "con science"? makes you think.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:32 (six years ago) link

otm

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:33 (six years ago) link

dichotomy or "o my dick hot"

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:33 (six years ago) link

hmmmm...

scott seward, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:34 (six years ago) link

the literary clusterfuck is still a clustefuck, both out in the world and here at home on ilx

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:35 (six years ago) link

and for the record, much as I haven't agreed with a lot of mordy's stance itt, I do think Lagoon's kinda otm

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:36 (six years ago) link

this thread is long. do i need to read it? kinda passed me by...

― scott seward, Friday, January 11, 2013 5:29 PM

good point

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:37 (six years ago) link

iirc this thread was originally some men's rights dudes debating epistemology, and then jon showed up and started a [MODERATOR EDIT NECESSARY FOR ALL OUR SANITY].

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:39 (six years ago) link

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:39 (six years ago) link

^ to be clear, that is for the automatic moderator edit

REBEL YELL FOR HUGS (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:40 (six years ago) link

we call it race peace now anyway

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:41 (six years ago) link

1-2-3-fleece I support a race peace

sleeve, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:42 (six years ago) link

test

race war (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:42 (six years ago) link

I am ready to be done with inflammatory posting in this thread

race war (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:43 (six years ago) link

LOOOL jinx

race war (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:43 (six years ago) link

1-2-3-fleece I support a race peace

― sleeve, Friday, January 11, 2013 2:42 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fleece? a wooly bully

invisible snack (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:44 (six years ago) link

ahaha xp

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:44 (six years ago) link

1-2-3 taunt i support a race detente

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:45 (six years ago) link

guys, this is just mean

Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:46 (six years ago) link

i love jon and i know for a fact he's not involving in fomenting racial dissent and his taste in action cinema is excellent iirc.

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:47 (six years ago) link

sorry

MODERATOR EDIT NECESSARY FOR ALL OUR SANITY (Austerity Ponies), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:47 (six years ago) link

maybe if the autoreplace was a Tubgirl pic the bullies would finally stop

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:48 (six years ago) link

who woulda thought autoreplace would encourage the joke

bnw, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:48 (six years ago) link

your logic there is fatally faulty imo

christmas candy bar (al leong), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:48 (six years ago) link

sorry, just got carried away with rhyme schemes, not meaning to make light of jon's frustration xxxxxp

sleeve, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:48 (six years ago) link

1 2 3 4
i declare a racewar

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:56 (six years ago) link

[MODERATOR EDIT NECESSARY FOR ALL OUR SANITY]?

♨ (am0n), Friday, 11 January 2013 22:56 (six years ago) link

[WHAT IF THE MODS ARE INSANE]

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 22:57 (six years ago) link

[MODERATOR EDIT NECESSARY FOR ALL OUR SANITY]

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:00 (six years ago) link

r a c e w a r

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:01 (six years ago) link

rahowa

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:01 (six years ago) link

where's your precious edit now, you fascists

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:01 (six years ago) link

race track CANT HOLD ME DOWN

lag∞n, Friday, 11 January 2013 23:02 (six years ago) link

race war

iatee, Friday, 11 January 2013 23:04 (six years ago) link

I need to get away from this PLACE MORE

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:05 (six years ago) link

i don't think it's you who needs that tbf

NINO CARTER, Friday, 11 January 2013 23:05 (six years ago) link

just a little racial holy war, let's be cool

let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:06 (six years ago) link

rice war (said in Australian accent)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:06 (six years ago) link

just a little racial holy war, let's be cool

― let's go do some crimes (strongo hulkington's ghost dad), Friday, January 11, 2013 6:06 PM (26 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's holy now so it's ok iirc

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:07 (six years ago) link

lol vg

estela, Friday, 11 January 2013 23:15 (six years ago) link

altho technicall it's more like rice waugh :)

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:21 (six years ago) link

it sounds so lol when you say it aloud, as i have several times now.

estela, Friday, 11 January 2013 23:24 (six years ago) link

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rachel-waugh

nilmar wells (DJ Mencap), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:29 (six years ago) link

Rachel Howley-Waugh (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Friday, 9 November 2012 19:53 (2 months ago)

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:31 (six years ago) link

eeeeh they stahted a fahkin rice waugh up theh yeah fahkin pissah mayte

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:33 (six years ago) link

hee sorry i love writing in strine

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 11 January 2013 23:33 (six years ago) link

Race phwoar...

karl lagerlout (suzy), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:08 (six years ago) link

maybe jon doesn't really care but is just stringing everyone along

the long troll

mookieproof, Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:08 (six years ago) link

I was pushing back! But unfortunately my position in the elevator wasn't affording me enough leverage to overcome her inertia from barrelling full speed down the hall.

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 4 September 2012 19:33 (4 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'm still so infuriated by this, just more pissed off by how impotent I was after this happened. Like, part of me wanted to scream at this moron for what she did, but what good would that have done?

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 4 September 2012 19:39 (4 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Man, the more I sit with this, the more pissed off I get.

― heated debate over derpy hooves (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, 4 September 2012 20:35 (4 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:13 (six years ago) link

oh god yes please invoke him back to the thread that would be awesome

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:15 (six years ago) link

i dont care about this terrible thread

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:15 (six years ago) link

well this should be fun then

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:16 (six years ago) link

to some degree i care about literature and the jvc lift/boxes episode was sublime and worth reading in full

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:17 (six years ago) link

what happened some one ran into him in an elevator

lag∞n, Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:19 (six years ago) link

lag∞n m8 do u remember the wiley track 'wearing my rolex'

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:22 (six years ago) link

i dont remember anything from that night LOLOL

lag∞n, Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:25 (six years ago) link

it was sick

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:29 (six years ago) link

max is on fire

disappointed that he was unable to reach the cowboy tho -- they probably would've ended up in the peoples' octagon

mookieproof, Saturday, 12 January 2013 00:46 (six years ago) link

nice post max. too bad you weren't able to reach the cowboy, or get much more out of the publisher :/

Mordy, Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:01 (six years ago) link

I have no idea what's going on, but I read this far:

I'm sorry her relationship with that cowboy turned out so horribly and his actions do not appear very creditable or kind, but I also can't say much in favor of her judgement, which seems to land her in an endless series of fuckups which she feels she must broadcast to the universe, first asserting then retracting many fundamental ideas with an equal passion and conviction of her rightness.

― Aimless, Thursday, January 10, 2013 7:43 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink


and can I just say: Aimless OTM

fiscal cliff racer (bernard snowy), Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:02 (six years ago) link

...is this her way of 'talking' to her publishers, I wonder:

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
Bookworks in ABQ reporting my memoir is"flying off the shelves" these past two days!! Yay. @gothambooks #feministandcowboy

2h Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
A very fair piece on me and my memoir in the Santa Fe newspaper. @gothambooks http://ow.ly/i/1mqTH

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:08 (six years ago) link

Also there's this:

https://www.facebook.com/events/136839429804479/

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:08 (six years ago) link

So, I just read every post to catch up on the thread. Not that my thoughts are that relevant, but:

People don't necessarily have a consistent view or presentation of their own thoughts and self-image. It's not my call to label that mental illness, a divergent personality, or "lying" and someone can regret what she said or, in fact, actually present herself as bisexual or having a certain philosophical opinion or belief and later either change her mind or regret that public disclosure. Consistency is necessary in factual journalism, but we're in a whole different realm when it comes to social behavior.

Impeaching Valdes's character or implying she's a horrible person due to some lack of consistency of vision is gross. Yes, ideally she would refuse to promote her book, but ideally she wouldn't have spent all her money and be broke. It's possible she still likes the writing in the book if she hates the content. It's possible she knows she was abused and treated like garbage but still has some fond feelings she feels conflicted about. She might pick and choose, or view things in a rosy light when doing interviews. Maybe she feels the book is a blueprint for an abusive relationship, but some relationships come with a lot of self-blame -- I would not pretend to put words in her mouth, but I can attest that there is often a feeling on the part of the abused that they were still somehow to blame, even if they can articulate why that is not the case.

She's an effusive writer without a strong sense of consistent self. That doesn't make me think she's a fake or phony, it makes me think she's a strong advocate for everyone other than herself.

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:11 (six years ago) link

It also has to be severely fucked-up for this lady to be reading positive reviews and hearing people talk about enjoying the book, validating her viewpoint that she held during this abusive relationship. She has recognized, or started to recognize, the facts of it, but people are inadvertently validating her views of the time every time they praise her portrayal.

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:24 (six years ago) link

really nice job, max

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:27 (six years ago) link

xp That's what happened in the interview I listened to for a bit--the show host started to talk about her husband, a "man's man" who insisted on opening doors for her blah blah sexist-sticks, and Valdes kind of got railroaded into giggling pleasantly and agreeing with her and then telling a story supporting that perspective.

grossly incorrect register (in orbit), Saturday, 12 January 2013 01:30 (six years ago) link

sorry guys i was at les mis. who changed who's mind with a flawless argument this time?

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 02:45 (six years ago) link

I don't think that's the point exactly. More like pushing ideas around and discovering where general location of the center of gravity. With clusterfuck threads that ideal doesn't often emerge, which is kind of what makes them clusterfucks. If anyone's mind was changed here it would have to be in terms of a shifting of emphasis rather than a 180 degree turnaround.

Aimless, Saturday, 12 January 2013 02:52 (six years ago) link

the first 400 posts or so were readable I think

puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Saturday, 12 January 2013 02:55 (six years ago) link

max an asset to the human race in reportage

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 02:56 (six years ago) link

sorry guys i was at les mis.

sb

mookieproof, Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:00 (six years ago) link

fu i had to bring le ms

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:01 (six years ago) link

le?

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:03 (six years ago) link

aimless, i think it's well established by now that a medium-to-good portait typist could have look at the last five or six threads on broadly similar topics and come up with something close enough to this thread to circulate to possible witnesses- down to the when and what which posters would say. No centring of gravity, not even any oxygen stirred in or an issue mildly thrashed, just identikit hostilities.

Fuckin raggett.

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:07 (six years ago) link

xp i figured la didn't sound enough alike for the pun and that masculinising her was better than insinuating a third party

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:09 (six years ago) link

I am amazed by the passive-aggressive barbs subtly strewn that invite sarcastic rejoinders and then hostilities. Reminds me of an abusive ex, tbh

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:10 (six years ago) link

respect to your ms, darragh

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:10 (six years ago) link

someone already made that joke upthread fwiw prob like five times

lag∞n, Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:11 (six years ago) link

i cant unpick if thats all for me or whether its for thread in general mh

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:12 (six years ago) link

xp i figured la didn't sound enough alike for the pun and that masculinising her was better than insinuating a third party

― let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:09 (4 minutes ago)

lol

things that are jokes pretty much (Nilmar Honorato da Silva), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:14 (six years ago) link

Thread, but the respect is always for your lady. She puts up with the best of us, may as well be the worst

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:15 (six years ago) link

I didn't feel like I learned very much new in the last Gawker piece other than that I was right that the theory about the evil publisher silencing the abuse victim to sell books was a little overblown.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Saturday, 12 January 2013 03:59 (six years ago) link

She either comes off as very confused about the whole thing or I just fundamentally do not agree with her entire worldview.

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:00 (six years ago) link

stop it hurting, just walk away, just walk away

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:01 (six years ago) link

(aimless gently slides his hand under hurting 2's elbow and guides him slowly but firmly to the exit. as hurting 2 slides through the door, aimless throws one bittersweet glance over his shoulder and then follows him into the darkness).

Aimless, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:05 (six years ago) link

She either comes off as very confused about the whole thing or I just fundamentally do not agree with her entire worldview.

― space phwoar (Hurting 2), Friday, January 11, 2013 11:00 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yah i guess i feel like i got some insight into her worldview; enough to suspect that i strongly disagree with it

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:12 (six years ago) link

the anticipated audience was not you, who have read this clusterfuck and her blog posts etc

max was . . . restrained, which is no doubt for the best

mookieproof, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:17 (six years ago) link

"A father who, when he was drunk, beat our mother in front of us"A father who, when he was drunk, beat our mother in front of us"A father who, when he was drunk, beat our mother in front of us"A father who, when he was drunk, beat our mother in front of us

buzza, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:18 (six years ago) link

expecting your own worldview to appear coherent and philosophically sound to others is a flawed perspective, expecting that of others, when they notably have a hard time pruning their public image, is too much

The more I live the more I think that people who pursue their lives in the public sphere successfully are more crafters of images than purveyors of personal truth

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:18 (six years ago) link

The more I live the more I think that people who pursue their lives in the public sphere successfully are more crafters of images than purveyors of personal truth

― mh, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:18 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

don't mean to be harsh but uh no shit?

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:21 (six years ago) link

well sure, but the people who are all "omg this is a horrible person" are judging on the fact this writer throws everything out there, not on the fact that she is actually pretty average and just not a good crafter of her image, for someone in her public position

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:23 (six years ago) link

see I was mentioning that to outline the inverse case, cad

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:23 (six years ago) link

max was . . . restrained, which is no doubt for the best

― mookieproof, Friday, January 11, 2013 11:17 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah I would agree with this

space phwoar (Hurting 2), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:24 (six years ago) link

yeah mh i get it, certainly for valdes it does not seem like crafting a particular image is her prime motivation here, but her defense of her style of memoir is just kind of bizarre to those of us who, having now heard the whole story, are saying "uh there's really no value in you leaving things hanging in the middle"

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:28 (six years ago) link

it seems like she's a horrible human being who had something horrible happen to her and is now stuck in a terrible no-win position

― Solange Knowles is my hero (DJP), Friday, January 11, 2013 11:23 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think this is pretty perfectly put

fiscal cliff paul (k3vin k.), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:29 (six years ago) link

NB have not read the rest of the thread yet so if there are new developments i am unaware of them

fiscal cliff paul (k3vin k.), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:29 (six years ago) link

you should read it

iatee, Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:45 (six years ago) link

;)

fiscal cliff paul (k3vin k.), Saturday, 12 January 2013 04:52 (six years ago) link

Not even sure I'd call it a defense as much as a series of kneejerk reactions and denials

mh, Saturday, 12 January 2013 05:26 (six years ago) link

richard dunne vs russia

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Saturday, 12 January 2013 10:24 (six years ago) link

still getting caught up on the thread; this was good:

feel like ambition should be in the dsm

― lag∞n, Friday, January 11, 2013 4:23 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fiscal cliff racer (bernard snowy), Saturday, 12 January 2013 20:41 (six years ago) link

hasn't she been through enough?

― Mordy, Friday, January 11, 2013 5:17 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

she needs a strong message board to show her the way

― lag∞n, Friday, January 11, 2013 5:18 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fiscal cliff racer (bernard snowy), Saturday, 12 January 2013 20:43 (six years ago) link

http://www.mamiverse.com/an-open-letter-to-demi-moore-4051/

estela, Saturday, 12 January 2013 23:30 (six years ago) link

haha

♨ (am0n), Saturday, 12 January 2013 23:48 (six years ago) link

is it to soon to make a white knighting/race war connection btw

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Sunday, 13 January 2013 00:01 (six years ago) link

This is not meant to be a diagnosis of Demi Moore's health issues, as only a licensed professional can make such a diagnosis.

mookieproof, Sunday, 13 January 2013 00:25 (six years ago) link

"I'm Brian Fellow"

buzza, Sunday, 13 January 2013 00:31 (six years ago) link

http://missalisasplace.com/2013/01/12/lets-talk-about-this/

estela, Sunday, 13 January 2013 00:42 (six years ago) link

Max Read (what a great freakin' pen name, dude)

mookieproof, Sunday, 13 January 2013 00:46 (six years ago) link

In the interest of being completely transparent, I’ve decided to host a Livestream chat on my website for anyone to join tomorrow. I’ll be live, on video, and you guys can ask me anything you want to. I want you to be able to see my eyes when I answer you, so that you can judge for yourself whether I’m telling the truth or crazy. I encourage you to join me, because I am genuinely interested in what you have to say, and hope that you will extend the same respect to me. Come to this link tomorrow, Sunday, January 13, at 6 p.m. MST (8 p.m. EST) and let’s talk about this, like civilized, intelligent people. Or at least not like idiots. Deal?

Mordy, Sunday, 13 January 2013 00:47 (six years ago) link

Livestream Chat Clusterfucks 2013

Theodora Celery, Sunday, 13 January 2013 01:25 (six years ago) link

"Who do you think you are? What.... what gives you the right?"

sleepingbag, Sunday, 13 January 2013 01:27 (six years ago) link

mookieproof otm

goole, Sunday, 13 January 2013 01:41 (six years ago) link

Posted by Valdes on her "Diary" blog, as linked by estela a few posts above:

I did not ask him to stop and he did not force himself upon me. Therefore, it wasn’t rape. The experience was sad, certainly, and he did remind me during it that he was “in charge” and I had to stop talking back, etc. Yes, this is ugly, and yes it was a turning point for me in the relationship. But it wasn’t “rape”. Not to me. While the cowboy could, at times, be a brutal man, emotionally, verbally and psychologically, and while he did threaten me with physical harm more than once (but never hit me) he was NOT a rapist, to my knowledge. I think that repeatedly referring to him in this way is irresponsible, libelous and, frankly, might get me killed.

no comment

Aimless, Sunday, 13 January 2013 01:47 (six years ago) link

good lord

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Sunday, 13 January 2013 01:52 (six years ago) link

I'm sorry but I still am at a loss with this "the cowboy" crap. I know it's a vocation and lifestyle but, damn. If he was a mechanic would this have had the same romantic angle to it?

mh, Sunday, 13 January 2013 01:57 (six years ago) link

its p. gross yes

an eagle named "small government" (call all destroyer), Sunday, 13 January 2013 02:02 (six years ago) link

from her twitter:

I do love this piece. ow.ly/gLbHO

this piece she loves also says she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder.

estela, Sunday, 13 January 2013 02:04 (six years ago) link

that letter to demi was weird

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 13 January 2013 02:21 (six years ago) link

it seemed like a confessional masquerading as a case of projection

mh, Sunday, 13 January 2013 02:22 (six years ago) link

creepy-feeling
over-identification or something idk

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 13 January 2013 02:24 (six years ago) link

is january 2013 just the month for super-regressive memoirs or something? this bullshit 'i figured out the algorithm to getting a husband on online personal sites, and it involves lying about everything' book has been driving me fucking crazy all day

maura, Sunday, 13 January 2013 23:47 (six years ago) link

YOU'RE TOO TALL EVEN IF YOU'RE 5'4" AND YOU NEED TO PLAY DOWN YOUR SUCCESSES, AND DON'T BE FUNNY, IT CONFUSES PEOPLE

god set the world on fire

maura, Sunday, 13 January 2013 23:49 (six years ago) link

smdh

inste grammophon (rogermexico.), Monday, 14 January 2013 00:31 (six years ago) link

this bullshit 'i figured out the algorithm to getting a husband on online personal sites, and it involves lying about everything' book

Wait what, that sounds horrific.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Monday, 14 January 2013 00:45 (six years ago) link

A surprising number of men high-fived me, for reasons that remain unclear.

geez, what jerks!

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 00:49 (six years ago) link

Holy flerking shnit.

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Monday, 14 January 2013 00:52 (six years ago) link

"insufferable uptight maths lady wonders why her humorless profile gets not decent dates".

Una Stubbs' Tears (Trayce), Monday, 14 January 2013 00:52 (six years ago) link

oh ffs

let's all hold hands & bite down on the cyanide capsule

raaagh @ this bullshit: • Women with curly hair are at a distinct disadvantage online. I have no idea whether men prefer blondes, but I can say definitively that most men prefer women with healthy, long, straight hair. If you have curls and feel comfortable (and look good) straightening your hair, give that a try.

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 January 2013 00:52 (six years ago) link

she's the Abed of online dating websites

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 00:53 (six years ago) link

(xpost)

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 00:53 (six years ago) link

bleach yr eyes

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 January 2013 00:53 (six years ago) link

um speaking as a man, I go nuts for curly hair. but it isn't as if that's my 'type' either, straight hair can be awesome too.

NINO CARTER, Monday, 14 January 2013 00:54 (six years ago) link

haha how is that article not awesome, she clearly was just nerding out about dating sites

autistic boy is surprisingly good at basketball (silby), Monday, 14 January 2013 01:12 (six years ago) link

queue marimba music. montage begins w/ amy sitting at home office computer. close up of dating website on screen. close up of amy mouse clicks. close up of amy concentrating hard. some windows moving around on computer screen. daylight in background window turns to nighttime. bar plots in excel. more concentration face. crumpled up piece of paper flies into trash bin. "Height:" *types 5'3"* frustration face. *backspace,backspace* *types 2"* renewed determination face. more mouse clicks. marimbas stop. amy noticeably tired face. clicks 'upload.' upload bar fills up and amy collapses into bed as scene fades out.

scene fade in. it's morning, and amy's computer has transformed into a real boy.

indivisible snack (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 14 January 2013 01:22 (six years ago) link

fmscout needed badly for this game

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Monday, 14 January 2013 01:32 (six years ago) link

uh it's not awesome because of the way it tells women to stop being mouthy and 'achieving' and straighten their hair? for starters

maura, Monday, 14 January 2013 03:47 (six years ago) link

holy shit @ this thread

crüt, Monday, 14 January 2013 03:52 (six years ago) link

it would be hilarious if it was hilarious

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 January 2013 03:59 (six years ago) link

uh it's not awesome because of the way it tells women to stop being mouthy and 'achieving' and straighten their hair? for starters

― maura, Sunday, January 13, 2013 7:47 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

think this is kind of a tongue-in-cheek thing, considering it's written by a curly-haired CEO with a book deal.

(panda) (gun) (wrapped gift) (silby), Monday, 14 January 2013 04:24 (six years ago) link

like obvs I haven't and never will read the book but this seems less like a misogynistic facebook macro and more like someone fucking around with dating sites. Plus the thing was probably adapted from the book by a subeditor at wsj and not the author herself.

(panda) (gun) (wrapped gift) (silby), Monday, 14 January 2013 04:26 (six years ago) link

jfc i've been away from computers for a few days, do i have to read all this

#guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Monday, 14 January 2013 09:39 (six years ago) link

No

(panda) (gun) (wrapped gift) (silby), Monday, 14 January 2013 09:41 (six years ago) link

thx

#guy #guy fieri #poop #hallway (zachlyon), Monday, 14 January 2013 09:44 (six years ago) link

needs a subeditor from wsj imo

let's bitch about our stupid, annoying co-ilxors (darraghmac), Monday, 14 January 2013 11:00 (six years ago) link

missed her chat last night, o well

mookieproof, Monday, 14 January 2013 17:03 (six years ago) link

now we'll never know the truth ;_;

set the controls for the heart of the sun (VegemiteGrrl), Monday, 14 January 2013 17:09 (six years ago) link

shouldn't have scheduled her chat opposite the Golden Globes

says a future man to his crystal son (reddening), Monday, 14 January 2013 18:21 (six years ago) link

Alisa Valdes ‏@MizAlisa
Dear Extreme Feminists Who Keep "Reviewing" Without Reading My Book: You are perpetuating the combative irrational feminist stereotype.

Mordy, Monday, 14 January 2013 23:15 (six years ago) link

eight months pass...

"literary"

what's up ugly girls? (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 24 September 2013 19:44 (six years ago) link

one year passes...

bump for literary clusterfucks 2014

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:26 (five years ago) link

bloggers write books now

≖_≖ (Lamp), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:27 (five years ago) link

i didn't know what alt-lit was until today. what a way to find out!

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:28 (five years ago) link

go on

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:32 (five years ago) link

trigger warning: http://gawker.com/hip-alt-lit-editor-quits-public-writing-career-after-ra-1640785729

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:33 (five years ago) link

sincerely hope you're not invested in defending that guy

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:39 (five years ago) link

fp

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:41 (five years ago) link

wow that gawker piece really bummed me out

≖_≖ (Lamp), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:43 (five years ago) link

his explanation for his behavior? the patriarchy.

Mordy, Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:43 (five years ago) link

there is a rather amazing incident at the bottom of the comments

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Tuesday, 30 September 2014 23:48 (five years ago) link

what a piece of shit.

i'd rather be arrested by you folks, than by anybody i know (art), Wednesday, 1 October 2014 00:28 (five years ago) link

this one too? http://jezebel.com/alt-lit-icon-tao-lin-accused-of-horrific-rape-and-abuse-1641641060

Mordy, Thursday, 2 October 2014 17:45 (five years ago) link

never going to get famous or do sex ever again

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 17:45 (five years ago) link

what do you mean by that

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:35 (five years ago) link

its just my plan for the future

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:36 (five years ago) link

why post it in response to that

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:40 (five years ago) link

idk why dont u unpack it for me

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:40 (five years ago) link

jho under incredible pressure rn, whats he got

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:41 (five years ago) link

i'll help: he doesn't want 2 exploit anyone, unleash the monster that is him on ppl

u owe me 1 now m8

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:43 (five years ago) link

i'm sincerely asking before assuming you're calling her a false accuser? i can't figure any other reason

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:44 (five years ago) link

well ur not very imaginative, tho i suspect that you would enjoy assuming that

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:47 (five years ago) link

imo it is possible 2 have sex &or be famous w/o committing criminal offences, hard tho i appresh

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:48 (five years ago) link

i dont understand how people with any public profile at all survive knowing the internet could start saying mean things about them at any time, let alone accuse them of serious crimes, especially people who have committed serious crimes, i wld just die from preemptive mortification and guilt

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:51 (five years ago) link

well ur not very imaginative, tho i suspect that you would enjoy assuming that

― lag∞n, Thursday, October 2, 2014 2:47 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

why would i enjoy that?

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:51 (five years ago) link

a cool thing about being a sociopath is you generally don't feel any remorse or shame for the horrible things you do, b/c other people aren't important and getting what you want is all that's important xp

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:52 (five years ago) link

just getting that vibe u seem coiled ready to pounce xp

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:52 (five years ago) link

so why won't you do sex ever again

please delete outrageous tanuki crappyposter (wins), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:53 (five years ago) link

so ppl like T4o L1n or other ppl who entrap vulnerable teenagers in abusive situations probably don't live in fear of exposure b/c they don't believe they've done anything wrong whatsoever, at all

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:53 (five years ago) link

yeah they say most rapists are both repeat offenders and dont understand that theyve raped anyone

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:54 (five years ago) link

which simultaneously makes perfect sense and is unfathomable

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:55 (five years ago) link

fuck tao lin forever. i guess "richard yates" was more real than i thought/hoped it was.

Treeship, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:55 (five years ago) link

just getting that vibe u seem coiled ready to pounce xp

― lag∞n, Thursday, October 2, 2014 2:52 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't like doing this and nowadays i usually just fuck off when people in a thread piss me off but i'd like to know if a poster i like is being an asshole

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:55 (five years ago) link

^

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:56 (five years ago) link

so ppl like T4o L1n or other ppl who entrap vulnerable teenagers in abusive situations probably don't live in fear of exposure b/c they don't believe they've done anything wrong whatsoever, at all

tao lin was so unafraid of exposure that he wrote an autobiographical novel about doing this

1staethyr, Thursday, 2 October 2014 18:57 (five years ago) link

zachlyon ready to pounce on another poster for saying something he doesn't like?? hard to believe

Mordy, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:01 (five years ago) link

i don't like doing this and nowadays i usually just fuck off when people in a thread piss me off but i'd like to know if a poster i like is being an asshole

― linda cardellini (zachlyon), Thursday, October 2, 2014 2:55 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fine i will unpack 4 u the intention was to self deprecatingly display my own real self involved reaction which was omg what if someone accused me of rape (or some other awful thing, or anything really) on the internet, it was not intended as a judgment on this particular case

it can also be seen as a reaction to the immediate casual impersonal moral grandstanding thats so typifies todays ephemeral internet culture like "wow tao lin is a literal piece of human garbage" *forgets about it two seconds later*

instead of that fake fortified self i offered a real imperfect human reaction

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:05 (five years ago) link

this lyon's got claws

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:07 (five years ago) link

the perhaps semiconscious notion that ones sins are excused by their accounting - not even - their contribution to ones ~lived experience~ - it is all stuff, narrative, action - is maybe increasingly prevalent and i am not sure that some visible cultural reminders - shall we say 'strong suggestions' of universal morality would go amiss, dangerous as this might seem. the trick is not to be all fundie xtian abt it or w/e. the construction of a cultural morality that is permissive of all bar exploitation and abuse is the project of our time

so yeah, down w/ momentary bandwagon morality sure, but up w/ reconstructing these abysmal & plu-nietzschean trends in self-ideation

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:09 (five years ago) link

tbh not sure they were thinking about getting "caught" or worried about it, I feel like there are certain types of people who feel like by nature of their lifestyle and scene and "interests" and self perception of intellect that they've transcended certain types of crime and exist where such things are nbd, it just happens, everything's cool, it's all pleasure.

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:10 (five years ago) link

cf lost prophets dude maybe for most striking example of this insane phenomenon ^

Mordy, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:11 (five years ago) link

i do think there are kinds of learned or inculcated sociopathy, yeah

goole, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:12 (five years ago) link

how do u define exploitation or abuse w/o abandoning universality & reaching for the vulnerable subjective? by not being fucking stupid abt it obv, many subjectives make light work

yh omar u just rptd me ;)

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:13 (five years ago) link

which is sort of a banal thing to say, i guess. "people can give themselves justification to do heinous shit if they are getting away with it"

xp

goole, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:13 (five years ago) link

it's like terry richardson or American apparel dude or w/e, all the stories sound the same. These guys who are actually used to just casually doing shit bc they're in this bubble of a scene where they have power and operate via some combo of respect and fear.

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:14 (five years ago) link

i think what interests me most about these two cases is that these aren't ignorant redneck high school football players who never learned that rape was wrong. these are members of the alt-lit community who are heavily educated in contemporary social justice themes + ideas. the first dude actually name-drops the patriarchy in his apology. it makes me feel like the problem isn't the lack of education, but the lack of ethics/morality/empathy/humanity.

Mordy, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:14 (five years ago) link

Translating it for the colonists here, LJ ;)

LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:15 (five years ago) link

mordy is on my buzz ~cool~ altho education is croosh, just maybe diff realms of it, or it applied difftly

omar u being tart w me omd

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:17 (five years ago) link

i think what interests me most about these two cases is that these aren't ignorant redneck high school football players who never learned that rape was wrong. these are members of the alt-lit community who are heavily educated in contemporary social justice themes + ideas. the first dude actually name-drops the patriarchy in his apology. it makes me feel like the problem isn't the lack of education, but the lack of ethics/morality/empathy/humanity.

― Mordy, Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:14 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah feel like w so much of these heavily conceptualized understandings that come out of our higher education systems that there really needs to be something deeper to animate it, there needs to be some heart and honesty not just like analysis of the levels, ultimately justice is not enough

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:22 (five years ago) link

maybe religion will save us (not unserious, 'religion' needs unpacking. panentheistic revolution bros n sisses)

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:24 (five years ago) link

i think what interests me most about these two cases is that these aren't ignorant redneck high school football players who never learned that rape was wrong. these are members of the alt-lit community who are heavily educated in contemporary social justice themes + ideas. the first dude actually name-drops the patriarchy in his apology. it makes me feel like the problem isn't the lack of education, but the lack of ethics/morality/empathy/humanity.

― Mordy, Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:14 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

They're also steeped in the literary tradition of damaged antiheros doing terrible things and writing thinly-veiled books about it and getting praise for their honesty.

Immediate Follower (NA), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:28 (five years ago) link

honesty itself venerated uber alles

what did walter benjamin say abt history

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:30 (five years ago) link

it's a crying angel flying backwards?

Mordy, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:31 (five years ago) link

maybe religion will save us (not unserious, 'religion' needs unpacking. panentheistic revolution bros n sisses)

― Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:24 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah its interesting me an mordy are two of the more religious regulars around here thinking the same abt this, i feel like a lot of the time religion can lean a lil too heavy on the personal morality plays while ignoring or reenforcing structural/societal issues but at the same time we all do have an internal life that we have to relate to and our contemporary culture is so massively extroverted that it does a poor job of dealing w people on that level and often makes them feel like they dont matter or arent good enough or w/e

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:32 (five years ago) link

great post :)

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:33 (five years ago) link

:)

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:39 (five years ago) link

where's magill with the kool aid

zero content albums (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:40 (five years ago) link

this is bigger than Literary Clusterfucks tbf, its like the entire point of it all. as solved on ilx

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:41 (five years ago) link

it fees like a culmination of ilx 4.0 alright

zero content albums (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:41 (five years ago) link

before the unbanning

zero content albums (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:42 (five years ago) link

i also want to know where magill is with the kool aid

mattresslessness, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:42 (five years ago) link

feel like its kinda weird too how people so invented in the concept of structural injustice are also so into rubbernecking these individual cases, like is tao lin literal human garbage or is he a product of an unjust society

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:44 (five years ago) link

Yeah this is an excellent discussion. The specificity of experience is (necessarily) lost when talking about any type of politics, yet it's inescapable for individuals, who must some way or some how construct an ethical code for themselves. In Tao Lin's early blog posts, he tried to do this via Schopenhauer and the principle of "minimizing harm," but his novels this decade have been preoccupied with the collapse of this system, and the paradoxically joyless hedonism -- walking death -- that lay at the other end. The fact that he might be a literal moral monster complicates this in a way I am not sure how to process

Treeship, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:44 (five years ago) link

might?

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:47 (five years ago) link

he seems like an emotionless asshole

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:47 (five years ago) link

just from that Jezebel article alone

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:47 (five years ago) link

any kind of tap dancing around this is bullshit

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:48 (five years ago) link

and how does it make you feel to judge him in that way waterface

lag∞n, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:50 (five years ago) link

it's really not important how i feel

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:51 (five years ago) link

it doesn't feel good to be honest but i never liked him as a writer anyway

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:51 (five years ago) link

surely waterface is picking at treesh here who unfortunately was ilx's resident tao lin stan. i don't think your feelings necessarily need to be complicated by this treesh - i mean, surely this isn't the first fiction author whose work you've found meaningful and later you discovered to have horrific moral flaws? like my fave novel of all time is prob Dead Souls and gogol was a voracious antisemite

Mordy, Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:52 (five years ago) link

ok he's a terrible cunt cool

can we get back to saving the collective soul pls

(lol I'm feeling better about Peter Hammill's drivel outburst now)

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:53 (five years ago) link

well if anything good will have come of all this

please delete outrageous tanuki crappyposter (wins), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:55 (five years ago) link

wins how do u derive ur moral outlook

Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Thursday, 2 October 2014 19:58 (five years ago) link

(exponent)moral outlook^(exponent - 1)

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Thursday, 2 October 2014 20:01 (five years ago) link

Xp mordy I love dead souls too. Gogol is similar to Lin in that his moral confusion is right there on the surface and part of what makes the book compelling. Gogol was less self aware though: he aimed (I think) for moral cohesion in his epic satire of Russia, while Tao Lin's novels almost satirize the impossibility of that kind of clarity. The tagline on the cover of RIchard Yates is "what constitutes illicit sex for a generation with no rules?"

Treeship, Thursday, 2 October 2014 20:26 (five years ago) link

Like, idk about you, but I think the failure of gogol's project is what makes it a masterpiece, something he probably dimly glimpsed with his overemphasis on the unnerving "falseness" of social relations in Russia, the creeping unease that threatens to transform the farce into a nightmare. Deep down, i don't think gogol believed slavic nationalism to be a cure for this ineluctable quality of his experience

Treeship, Thursday, 2 October 2014 20:30 (five years ago) link

Sorry: massive tangent. Back to Lin, i think he is always at least nominally satisfied with nihilism; even as he describes it as unsatisfying, there isn't a real "yearning for meaning" there. Maybe people can't live like that and that's why my mom's always bugging me to go back to church

Treeship, Thursday, 2 October 2014 20:32 (five years ago) link

Has Vintage Books printed an official statement? Just curious what approach they'll take.

, Thursday, 2 October 2014 20:48 (five years ago) link

feel like its kinda weird too how people so invented in the concept of structural injustice are also so into rubbernecking these individual cases

people rubberneck for different reasons, but for me there's a (not at all healthy) element of magical thinking involved. "i need to learn everything about what happened so i can make sure it never happens to me." how can i react "correctly" if a dude i thought was chill tries to harass or assault me. how would i talk about it after the fact so people would believe me instead of dismissing me. if i'm a victim how do i be "the good victim." what would i do if the person held a measure of power over my career (i'm a chick with publishing ambitions, so this case and the ed champion case hit close to home). keep silent: well, X Y and Z kept silent and now people are saying they're complicit in the victimization of others. speak up: a deluge of unwanted attention and the risk of repercussions, either professional or just the normal threats a woman gets when she uses social media to say something controversial. etc etc, endless shitty calculus.

it's fucked up, and i recognize that it's the kind of thinking that contributes to a culture of victim-blaming. i would hopefully never lead a woman or a member of a vulnerable minority to think they have to live up to these "standards" my mind keeps trying to create for itself. but it's really tempting to find comfort in the delusion that you can sherlock-holmes your way out of structural injustice and violence.

i also recognize that i often take comfort in people's public displays of rebuke/hostility toward abusers ("literal human garbage" etc). stridency wasn't a part of my toolkit growing up; my automatic impulse in communication is to be light-footed and conciliatory. so stridency and righteousness feel powerful to me, like reclaiming something forbidden. there's this (reductive) sense that the other side has always done it, so if i see my side doing it, that means the cultural tide is turning in our favor. it doesn't jibe with the framework of structural inequality or even the rules of effective argument, but sometimes i just don't care. i'm reading the tea leaves, looking for any sign that things are improving to make myself feel better.

compassionate sports, electronic father (reddening), Thursday, 2 October 2014 23:22 (five years ago) link

that is a super well considered reply thank you, not sure im up to comprehensively responding to it but just wanted to say that what i was trying to say by rubbernecking was a pretty specific thing and doesnt really include most of what youre saying, like if something makes people legit mad imho fwiw its cool if they express that likewise with all sorts of other reactions

theres just this thing and maybe u have to be on twitter a bunch or read gawker to get sick of it, and maybe in the context of sexual misconduct isnt the best to talk abt it, cause it extends to like startup owners who do some intemperate or gauche or w/e thing, then theres this reaction thats all wow this is the worst person in the world which is typical internet hyperbole, i just feel like when it gets to that kneejerk level the hyperbole is too frivolous like these are actually serious issues that should be treated as such not just judged w this drive by moral grandstanding then on to the next idk

lag∞n, Friday, 3 October 2014 01:14 (five years ago) link

fwiw i feel like with the edward champion incident something good came out of it in that he was someone in a position of power who was pretty clearly abusing that power and it looks like he got put down, thats constructive and obvs a lot of people went out on a limb to make it happen

lag∞n, Friday, 3 October 2014 01:18 (five years ago) link

http://htmlgiant.com/behind-the-scenes/htmlgiants-last-day-is-october-24th/#disqus_thread

the main (i think) alt lit blog announced it's closing today. here's an explanation for why in the comments:

Avatar
MFBomb LiteraryCircus • 27 minutes ago

Postmodernism has nothing to do with it. Tao Lin does. HTMLGIANT hitched itself to the alt lit wagon. Commenters as far back as 2010 warned that alt lit was a juvenile fad that wouldn't last, but they were called get off my lawn types. They warned that alt lit's nihilism would be its eventual downfall, and they were dismissed as haters. I remember one commenter on here saying something like, "I can't wait until alt lit buries the old guard," whatever that means. How'd that work out?

Lin's last book wasn't as successful as expected. Now dude's facing rape charges. STD, Trull, Smith, were all exposed as sexual abusers too.

I'm not shocked that this nihilistic scene is dealing with numerous rape charges. I was never fooled by the lovey-dovey, effeminate, boyish masculinity of its male members that attempted to mask predatory behavior.

If you're a younger writer under the age of 25, I'd advise you to steer clear of scenes or cliques. Bury your head in books while the cool kids fry their brains on prescription drugs and write shitty poetry that would make Jim Morrison blush. You'll win in the end.

Treeship, Friday, 3 October 2014 04:06 (five years ago) link

good advice for anyone tbh

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 3 October 2014 05:56 (five years ago) link

is that actually an "explanation why"

socki (s1ocki), Friday, 3 October 2014 12:16 (five years ago) link

Nope

i blow goat farts, aka garts for a living (waterface), Friday, 3 October 2014 13:33 (five years ago) link

nihilism is a really poor substitute for profundity

lag∞n, Friday, 3 October 2014 15:50 (five years ago) link

Writing poetry after alt lit is barbaric.

jmm, Friday, 3 October 2014 16:33 (five years ago) link

Lol

Treeship, Friday, 3 October 2014 16:34 (five years ago) link

Between this situation and the PRR guy, there seems to be a connection between these male alt lit writers and an attraction to teenage girls that is disturbing and also not something I've thought about as someone who basically likes this kind of neo-confessional writing. I would be interested in reading an analysis of this... i think it has to do with the memoirist's interest in arresting time and a subsequent fetishization of youth. There is something in this sensibility that leads to objectifying and exploiting women and I think it goes beyond the scene being a "boy's club."

Regardless, i'm only reading women novelists for the next few months at least.

Treeship, Friday, 3 October 2014 16:51 (five years ago) link

here's my analysis: these dudes are developmentally-stunted predators who can't countenance the idea of a relationship with someone their own age

💪😈⚠️ (DJP), Friday, 3 October 2014 16:53 (five years ago) link

and you all laughed at a.o. scott...

goole, Friday, 3 October 2014 16:56 (five years ago) link

Tavi doesn't fit naturally into that picture.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Friday, 3 October 2014 16:56 (five years ago) link

Yeah i guess it's just woody allen syndrome: the exploitative narcissist who thinks his shortcomings as a human are not only harmless but charming.

Treeship, Friday, 3 October 2014 16:56 (five years ago) link

Xp

PRR guy sorta describes crushing on tavi when she was 15.

Treeship, Friday, 3 October 2014 16:58 (five years ago) link

There's a fairly large gulf between hinting that you might have had a crush on someone when they were fifteen and being in an allegedly abusive, controlling relationship with them. Tavi is an 18 yr old with agency and already a more feted cultural figure than the PRR guy is ever likely to be. Tao Lin appears to have chosen someone vulnerable, through age and other factors, to exploit. Comparison with PRR, other than the more general point that a fair percentage of guys from all background will date teenagers if they can get away with it, seems forced.

Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Friday, 3 October 2014 17:20 (five years ago) link

No doubt. Probably unfair to compare them.

Treeship, Friday, 3 October 2014 17:28 (five years ago) link

basic rundown of re abuse in scenes: http://www.deathandtaxesmag.com/228916/on-sexism-sexual-assault-and-the-threat-of-the-non-bro/

I think a lot of the reason sexism, misogyny, assault and other problems are able to fester and grow in these communities is because there are women out there who have more of a vested interest in protecting these communities from criticism than in protecting other women.

I think another problem is that they are intertwined not only socially, but professionally. Your friends aren’t just your friends, they’re your contemporaries. If you make too much noise, draw too much attention to things that make the community look bad, ruffle feathers–it doesn’t just mean losing your social circle, it could mean messing up your career.


the second reason is urgent. the first one gets into what seems to get at the most obvious reason but i have no idea why she chooses to construct it so women are primary agents in fostering rape and abuse in scenes, rather than the men who ingrain themselves because they spot (consciously or not) a vulnerability that can be exploited -- (all) people within scenes are extremely concerned with keeping those scenes alive and powerful bc they put so much hope and faith in them, and asshole men (and women, rarely) are protected bc they lack those traditional stereotypical markers (as she discusses) and they can be seen as valuable. women can have a big part in maintaining it but is that really the key??

i've honestly never heard of a radical and/or arts scene free of abuse and assault. really any decent-sized social grouping made up of people in their 20s/early 30s, with the possible exception of some religious groups (though never totally, obv), will have perpetrators. i'm partial to thinking that monsters will always find their way in and they'll always have different sorts of protection, different ideologies only lead to different excuses, etc.

the biggest figure in the writing "scene" in my college and its surrounding towns was an abusive rapist (and all-around asshole to everyone who couldn't give him smth tbh) and it became exhausting trying to communicate this to people and hear them either make excuses, or act sympathetic/"shocked" only to completely ignore it immediately afterwards. it's not like a college-town poet is ever going to be important enough to defend for any reason! he wasn't even that good! but scenes become bubbles, and the people within them start to treat them like homes. protect them because they protect you, etc. a good quote from that piece:

It’s also a lot harder than calling out Rush Limbaugh, because none of us have to live with Rush Limbaugh.

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 3 October 2014 18:06 (five years ago) link

that dude recently got into NYU's writing program btw

linda cardellini (zachlyon), Friday, 3 October 2014 18:07 (five years ago) link

the most promising young american author is TAO LIN

reggie (qualmsley), Friday, 3 October 2014 18:43 (five years ago) link

The tagline on the cover of RIchard Yates is "what constitutes illicit sex for a generation with no rules?"

― Treeship, Thursday, October 2, 2014 8:26 PM (Yesterday)

ugh this is gross; can't we all just consensually enjoy poppers

King Clone (Crabbits), Friday, 3 October 2014 20:39 (five years ago) link

yeah

mattresslessness, Friday, 3 October 2014 21:13 (five years ago) link

pretending there is such a thing as "a generation with no rules" is just silly

Aimless, Friday, 3 October 2014 21:46 (five years ago) link

Think that was the original tagline to _Story of the Eye_

Øystein, Friday, 3 October 2014 21:49 (five years ago) link

The fact that it's my generation he's describing is very weird. Nihilism as a central preoccupation, even as an adversary position, seems so 19th century.

jmm, Friday, 3 October 2014 21:50 (five years ago) link

i think it's back. this david foster wallace essay appealed to many people:

Because here's something else that's weird but true: in the day-to day
trenches of adult life, there is actually no such thing as atheism. There is
no such thing as not worshipping. Everybody worships. The only choice
we get is what to worship. And the compelling reason for maybe choosing
some sort of god or spiritual-type thing to worship -- be it JC or Allah, be
it YHWH or the Wiccan Mother Goddess, or the Four Noble Truths, or
some inviolable set of ethical principles -- is that pretty much anything
else you worship will eat you alive. If you worship money and things, if
they are where you tap real meaning in life, then you will never have
enough, never feel you have enough. It's the truth. Worship your body
and beauty and sexual allure and you will always feel ugly. And when time
and age start showing, you will die a million deaths before they finally
grieve you. On one level, we all know this stuff already. It's been codified
as myths, proverbs, clichés, epigrams, parables; the skeleton of every great
story. The whole trick is keeping the truth up front in daily consciousness.

Worship power, you will end up feeling weak and afraid, and you will
need ever more power over others to numb you to your own fear.
Worship your intellect, being seen as smart, you will end up feeling stupid,
a fraud, always on the verge of being found out. But the insidious thing
about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that
they're unconscious. They are default settings.

as a secular person, i am uncomfortable with the appeal to the supernatural. but i think what lin's books do at their best is describe what it's like for people who, through arrogance or confusion, have rejected all given values and try to fashion new ad hoc codes for themselves. his early blog writings are all like, ethical treatises, and books like richard yates describe the monstrous ways these ideas found expression in his real life. so yeah, i think this is nihilism... the idea that you can just make it up as you go along, and stay true only to your own "conscience," which doesn't mean anything if you don't have moral intuition which i guess lin might actually not have.

i feel like david brooks writing this shit. but really, there's still such a thing as feeling lost and right now people are more reluctant than ever to steer lost people back on correct paths. this is probably a net good, as nothing is more dangerous than certainty. but uncertainty carries dangers too.

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 03:35 (five years ago) link

it's hard to formulate this, but i think this question is relevant now than other times because people are offered more choices on how to think, how to live, etc. i am thinking of kierkegaard and the idea that the moment of choice (which discloses our freedom) is a moment of anxiety. while it's probably good that there isn't set patterns for life, firmly established for us -- a fact that is constricting -- the nightmare described in taipei of spending so much fucking time absorbed in one's thoughts and choices is also constricting.

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 03:40 (five years ago) link

<3 dfw but that's bullshit, or at least extraordinarily one-sided, regarding a side he's projecting

i can't really speak to your connection to lin's books -- i've not read them and am unlikely to now -- but why is it so difficult to simply treat people well? it doesn't take religion. the fact that modern society sucks and the internet is alienating doesn't make it impossible.

i've been taking (prescribed) mind-altering drugs for more than half of tao lin's life and can almost certainly drink him under the table. yet i've managed to refrain from fucking (and fucking up) 16-year-olds. it's simply not that difficult to be a decent person, no matter how often one cries nihilism and alienation.

mookieproof, Saturday, 4 October 2014 04:12 (five years ago) link

yeah, i wasn't excusing him morally and don't want to be seen even minimally to be doing that. this whole thing though has been a wake up call for me to remember that artists are people and don't just exist in some sort of hypothetical space where they can explore the extremities of the human condition without consequence. like, i read richard yates in 2011 and just thought it was a novel, even knowing it had "autobiographical elements", and wasn't as disturbed as i should have been.

but anyway, i think there is a lot to that dfw quote. everyone's responsible for being a decent person, but our responsibilities to others can become occluded when we spend too much time absorbed in ourselves, which is really easy to do now. i wouldn't blame any of lin's irl actions on this, but in the book there is a connection between the characters' sense of moral vertigo and their sense of alienation and i think this is why his work was described as "nihilistic", a term jmm found to be a strange buzzword in 2014

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 04:25 (five years ago) link

lol that is some srs half ass shit dfw

lag∞n, Saturday, 4 October 2014 05:20 (five years ago) link

it's cfw in his c.s. lewis mode, it's all right, it's got a tang to it

The Complainte of Ray Tabano, Saturday, 4 October 2014 06:57 (five years ago) link

dfw, even

The Complainte of Ray Tabano, Saturday, 4 October 2014 06:57 (five years ago) link

He went to Amherst, after all.

Spirit of Match Game '76 (silby), Saturday, 4 October 2014 07:55 (five years ago) link

i don't think what he is saying is too different from this:

yeah its interesting me an mordy are two of the more religious regulars around here thinking the same abt this, i feel like a lot of the time religion can lean a lil too heavy on the personal morality plays while ignoring or reenforcing structural/societal issues but at the same time we all do have an internal life that we have to relate to and our contemporary culture is so massively extroverted that it does a poor job of dealing w people on that level and often makes them feel like they dont matter or arent good enough or w/e

― lag∞n, Thursday, October 2, 2014 3:32 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 12:57 (five years ago) link

fu

lag∞n, Saturday, 4 October 2014 13:24 (five years ago) link

lol

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 13:40 (five years ago) link

on the one hand, Treeship otm, OTOH, Wallace is p clearly wanting to SAY SOMETHING WISE whereas lagoon hedges his bets and preemptively defends against charges of self-seriousness with an "or w/e" style which does age a little better than grafs with lines like "it's the truth"

The Complainte of Ray Tabano, Saturday, 4 October 2014 13:47 (five years ago) link

artists are people and don't just exist in some sort of hypothetical space where they can explore the extremities of the human condition without consequence.

His being an abusive and cruel person/partner has nothing to do with anything as elevated as EXPLORING THE HUMAN CONDITION. Abusers are much alike no matter how heady and academically admired: narcissistic, anti-social, self-centered, manipulative, the lot.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 4 October 2014 13:48 (five years ago) link

lagoon wasn't giving a commencement speech xp

io, obviously. i was talking about not really taking the "autobiographical" stuff seriously beyond just being a marketing pitch. it's one of the grimmest books i've ever read.

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 14:00 (five years ago) link

"haley joel osment" -- the lin stand-in -- is clearly a vile predator. nobody who read it would think differently. but i and a lot of people liked to believe in a separation between author and character, even though dating a person that young is by itself very much out of line in my opinion

Treeship, Saturday, 4 October 2014 14:02 (five years ago) link

The only choice we get is what to worship.

But the insidious thing about these forms of worship is not that they're evil or sinful, it's that they're unconscious. They are default settings.

Hmm.

I don't feel much provoked by DFW's thing since it seems to me his "pretty much everything else" hardly covers anything. He discards a couple of clearly not very good sources of meaning, but those he mentions hardly begin to exhaust the space of possibilities. It's a big universe out there.

jmm, Saturday, 4 October 2014 14:11 (five years ago) link

http://liferoar.wordpress.com/2014/10/02/stop-denying-and-unseeing-rape-subculture/

Rape subculture in “alternative” communities is often doubly insidious because our individual and group identities are molded precisely around an idea that we are not that. We are not dumb jocks; we’re poetry freaks! We’re intellectuals! We know the language of feminism! We voted for Barack Obama! We’re vegans! We’re artists! We’re anti-authoritarians! We’re liberal hippies! We’re Buddhists! We’re alternative! And it is precisely this psychological investment people have in being “different” and “alternative” that makes rape subculture all that much more important to be aware of.

Orson Wellies (in orbit), Saturday, 4 October 2014 14:29 (five years ago) link

i dunno in my limited experience dfw seems pretty otm there
granted the rhetoric is commencement speech but what am i missing?

resulting post (rogermexico.), Saturday, 4 October 2014 14:50 (five years ago) link

If you're referring to my post, I picked out those two quotes because they seem to contradict each other. Do we have a choice of what to worship or don't we?

jmm, Saturday, 4 October 2014 15:03 (five years ago) link

"worship" is a loaded term and DFW asks it to do some heavy lifting but it seems pretty clear he's saying we can choose the object of worship once we acknowledge that we don't get to opt out of the behavior

psychoanalytic types might say "fetishize" w/e

resulting post (rogermexico.), Saturday, 4 October 2014 15:17 (five years ago) link

six months pass...

RS publishes the The Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism Report on its botched process on the UVA rape story:
http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/a-rape-on-campus-what-went-wrong-20150405

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2015 13:58 (four years ago) link

As at other once-robust print magazines and newspapers, Rolling Stone's editorial staff has shrunk in recent years as print advertising revenue has fallen and shifted online. The magazine's full-time editorial ranks, not including art or photo staff, have contracted by about 25 percent since 2008. Yet Rolling Stone continues to invest in professional fact-checkers and to fund time-consuming investigations like Erdely's. The magazine's records and interviews with participants show that the failure of "A Rape on Campus" was not due to a lack of resources. The problem was methodology, compounded by an environment where several journalists with decades of collective experience failed to surface and debate problems about their reporting or to heed the questions they did receive from a fact-checking colleague.

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:07 (four years ago) link

Yet the editors and Erdely have concluded that their main fault was to be too accommodating of Jackie because she described herself as the survivor of a terrible sexual assault. Social scientists, psychologists and trauma specialists who support rape survivors have impressed upon journalists the need to respect the autonomy of victims, to avoid re-traumatizing them and to understand that rape survivors are as reliable in their testimony as other crime victims. These insights clearly influenced Erdely, Woods and Dana. "Ultimately, we were too deferential to our rape victim; we honored too many of her requests in our reporting," Woods said. "We should have been much tougher, and in not doing that, we maybe did her a disservice."

Erdely added: "If this story was going to be about Jackie, I can't think of many things that we would have been able to do differently. … Maybe the discussion should not have been so much about how to accommodate her but should have been about whether she would be in this story at all." Erdely's reporting led her to other, adjudicated cases of rape at the university that could have illustrated her narrative, although none was as shocking and dramatic as Jackie's.

Yet the explanation that Rolling Stone failed because it deferred to a victim cannot adequately account for what went wrong. Erdely's reporting records and interviews with participants make clear that the magazine did not pursue important reporting paths even when Jackie had made no request that they refrain. The editors made judgments about attribution, fact-checking and verification that greatly increased their risks of error but had little or nothing to do with protecting Jackie's position.

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:11 (four years ago) link

wld not have been hard to write a solid story abt campus rape, the allure of the sensationalistic frat gang rape did them in

lag∞n, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:11 (four years ago) link

a solid story abt campus rape w/out the frat initiative rite gang rape hook would not be their most-read non-celebrity article ever

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:12 (four years ago) link

yeah well obvs theres a tension there that got the best of them

lag∞n, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:15 (four years ago) link

even if it were true it prob wouldve been less instructive of the structural issues that allow assaults to happen just via not being a typical example

lag∞n, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:15 (four years ago) link

also is indicative of our need to make criminals monsters so as to distance ourselves from them, this fantastical story was the perfect appeal to people who dont have that much interest in seeing how common and embedded in our culture rape really is

lag∞n, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:18 (four years ago) link

i think probably some of these gang rape cases do occur on campus (i haven't read this book on the subject). in one sense erdely was pretty unlucky to get such a complex, contradictory story when there are probably other more easily reported campus gang rapes (assuming that you want to peg yr story to something like that). on the other hand the report makes pretty clear that she did a pretty bad job fact-checking this story and that even cursory independent research would have brought up questions about its veracity.

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:38 (four years ago) link

their explanation that they were just trying to protect the victim is pretty convenient, yeah and obviously gang rapes do happen

lag∞n, Monday, 6 April 2015 14:44 (four years ago) link

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2015/04/06/rolling_stone_uva_rape_story_shock_that_no_one_is_fired_for_journalistic.html

CNN’s Brian Stelter points out that what some might see as a failure to hold anyone directly accountable, “others might call a show of loyalty and a second chance for the staff.”

Too bad, though, that Rolling Stone didn’t seem to have that same loyalty toward other staff members who had been forced out of the magazine for offenses that seem downright minor—if offenses at all—in comparison with the UVA rape story debacle. In 1996, Wenner fired senior music editor Jim DeRogatis after he wrote a negative review of Hootie and the Blowfish, which was replaced by a positive review. When the New York Observer asked DeRogatis whether Wenner was a fan of the band he answered: “No, I think he’s just a fan of bands which sell eight and a half million copies.”

Bad party planning can also apparently get you in hot water. Steven DeLuca was fired in February 2006 after a two-year stint as the magazine’s publisher after he got into a tiff with Wenner about a party to celebrate the 1,000th issue. Wenner apparently thought the location that DeLuca had selected for the party was too expensive and changed it. “Mr. DeLuca objected to the move, they argued and Mr. Wenner fired him,” according to the New York Times story from the time.

Mordy, Monday, 6 April 2015 18:48 (four years ago) link

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/04/rolling-stones-sensational-failure/389718/

Said Rosen, "None of those schools felt quite right. What kind of 'feel' is this? It’s feeling for a fit between discovered story and a prior—given—narrative." What if, he argued, "a single, emblematic college rape case" does not exist? "Maybe the hunt for such was ill-conceived from the start," he wrote. "Maybe that’s the wrong way for Rolling Stone to have begun." And I think he is correct that searching for confirmation of a preexisting narrative is a common problem in narrative journalism generally and a factor that led Rolling Stone astray here.

Still, there is one sense in which Erdely's account of her process seems dubious to me. The story of a fraternity that used gang rape as an initiation ritual for pledges would obviously be worth exposing if it were true. But no one familiar with the reality of rape on college campuses should've construed such a story as emblematic of the problem. Gang rapes absolutely happen. As Robby Soave notes, Rolling Stone could've easily written a story about one that happened at Vanderbilt.

But according to the Justice Department's December 2014 report on the rape and sexual assault of college-aged females, fully 95 percent of rapes and sexual assaults are committed by a single perpetrator. Just 5 percent involve two or more perpetrators—and a fraction of those, if any, involve premeditated, institutionalized rape carried out as part of a formal, ostensibly recurring initiation rite. There's nothing objectionable about a journalist highlighting a highly atypical rape so long as the specific incident actually happened. But any journalist doing so should acknowledge that they're telling the story of a sensational, unrepresentative case, not a case emblematic of campus culture at large.

Isn't this sort of the broader function of the "rape culture" meme? To associate a wider range of acts/speech w/ the more heinous associations we have of the term?

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 13:54 (four years ago) link

this is sort of the opposite of what the concept of rape culture id attempting to point out in that it went looking for a horrific sensational conspiracy instead of examining at the everyday culture thats all around us

lag∞n, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:18 (four years ago) link

Yeah, it's exactly the opposite.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:23 (four years ago) link

I meant that it's the ideological kernel of the idiom, and the reason why it could be simultaneously a "horrific sensational conspiracy" as well as being emblematic of "everyday culture."

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:25 (four years ago) link

but its not emblematic of everyday culture, its not even real!

lag∞n, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:27 (four years ago) link

Like when you see people oppose the term "rape culture," they tend to oppose it on the grounds that it is gathering "everyday culture" under the rubric of something most people consider a heinous crime. Here it's the logic in reverse whereas the most horrific crime becomes symbolic of other less horrific crimes, and of the college "culture" itself.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:27 (four years ago) link

I meant from the POV of the author who went out looking for a sensational story to peg a broader study of the way colleges treat rape. Part of it is "if it bleeds it leads" sensationalist journalism where RS just wants clicks or whatever, part of it is dramatizing poor college responses to rape by showing something horrific (and clear-cut in a way a lot of these other college stories aren't) and directing yr outrage at the institutional response. But I also think part of the issue is the general collapse of distinctions - that W (this story) = X (other college rape stories) = Y (college culture in general) and of course ultimately = Z (our culture at large).

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:31 (four years ago) link

I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how someone could take an uniquely horrifying story as emblematic, and I don't think Erdely misunderstands the meaning of the word "emblematic." I think there's a weird ideological thing going on.

Mordy, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:37 (four years ago) link

i mean if it were true that there was formally institutionalized group sexual assaults at a fraternity then that wld be very emblematic of rape culture but to get to the point where you believe that you have to not understand how rape culture really functions, or at least be lead astray by yr desire for a good story

lag∞n, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:41 (four years ago) link

The people who want to talk horrific single examples are most often the opposite of people who want to talk about broader, everyday issues. Like, take the Walter Scott situation. What is going on there? Is that an example of a single horrific racist who straight up murdered an innocent black man? Or is it the logical outgrowth of municipal policing focusing on punishing broken taillights and back child-pay to get money for small cities without raising taxes? I think a lot of the people who will begin painting the officer as a horrific unique monster are reactionary people trying to avoid North Charleston gets exposed by the DOJ the way Ferguson was.

In the same way, the RS story was always confused. But it doesn't seem to me to be an outgrowth of the ideology surrounding 'rape culture', more like the opposite. More like old fashioned conservative mass scares, complete with the ritualized aspect.

But it's kinda interesting how the two issues can intersect, the left-oriented struggle to shine a light on damaging structural issues, with the right-wing outrage media machine.

Frederik B, Wednesday, 8 April 2015 14:48 (four years ago) link

It's weird that the emblematic case had to be sought solely at 'elite schools', too.