Taking Sides: Liverpool vs Everton

I don't like Everton much at all (sorry Mike)but it's a lot like the Arsenal/Spurs thing isn't it? Everton hate Liverpool far more than the other way round, largely I suspect to the aftermath of Heysel and the implications this had on Everton's great side of the late eighties.

ahhh football, I love it so much

Liverpool as team - never that exciting to watch but classic towards the end of last season and for periods in 70s / 80s, though extraordinarily dud for much of 90s. Steve McManaman was and is uber- classic, Robbie Fowler's worldview and attitude as dud as they get.

Everton - "School of Science" mythology dead for years now, can't remember when they last had a good, watchable footballing side. One trophy post-1987 in FA Cup Final against a demoralised Man Utd during the Cantona ban. Says it all, really.

The theme from Z Cars? It's a good tune. The Anfield Rap is a time capsule.

"Austere technicians......". WHAT??

More like a rest home for the perma-crocked (Big Dunc, Gazza), foriegners who shouldn't be in the premiership (Tal, Nyarko, Xavier,Max-Moore), and earnest-but-useless donkeys (Unsworth,S. Watson,Pembridge,Gough).

They'll never win anything with W. Smith at the helm - he's assembled a squad of overpaid underachievers which almost rivals the classic Man City squads of the early 90's (and 2000/2001). Two decent home- grown players in the last 5 years, and one is now gone (Jeffers), the other (Ball) will go by Christmas.

Having said all that I do have a soft spot for Everton, for no good reason that I can bring to mind. A couple of good hairstyles over the years too - John Bailey's uber-scouser permed mullet from the 80's and Alan Whittle's "Einstein" blonde shock from the early 70's.

the top three this year will be

Man United

Liverpool

Leeds or Chelsea

But if Liverpool do win it I will be a very very happy Cabbage

Besides they won against Real Madrid in the '81 final so that makes them one of Satan's clubs (same with that bastard win against AS Roma in '84).

what has to be the best midfield in the world.

I was going to say something knee-jerk about Real Madrid's, but, no, I think cabbage is right. Still, Arsenal is surely still a better team than Chelsea. Lampard and Petit can't make that big a difference, can they?

I know a fair few Blue-hating Reds - in recent years, they seem to have been most frustrated by our irritating inability to finally GO DOWN and be done with it. I suspect (last season apart - which I still feel is some long, awful nightmare from which I will wake to find myself in the Blue Bottle pub in Crystal Palace, with Birmingham City about to convert every one of their penalties) that this has caused them much more grief than LFC's post-Souness dalliance with the top six has upset Evertonians.

In that sense, Liverpool's dominance in the 70s and 80s has let the Blues off the hook; LFC are still expected to win things, EFC merely to avoid the drop.

I'm not remotely optimistic, btw. The Man City comparison is a fair one; our squad is the blackest comedy. I can't even see us emulating the performances of 95-96 (post-Cup victory, Kanchelskis-inspired attacking team, almost qual for UEFA) or the first half of 99-00 (Campbell and Jeffers aflame, goals galore), much less win anything.

I'll be devoting all my armchair energies to roaring LFC on to fourth position - in their Champions League group, natch.

Mike, I know that EFC fans hated Liverpool for years but from a few fans I sense that the bitterest grudge comes from not seeing that great side win the European Cup in 1986 or 1987.

But really what is the bitterest hate between footy fans? Is it Arsenal/Spurs? Rangers/Celtic? Sunderland/Newcastle? Real/Barca?

My vote: Boca Juniors/River Plate in Argentina, they don't fight in car parks, they have drive by shootings for crying out loud!

Mark: the whole 'big club' business. I remember being taunted about that in the early 80s - the difference now, I think, is that (post-Sky/Premiership) the 'bigness' of certain clubs is cemented in place a bit more firmly. The likelihood of EFC performing a relelgation-candidates-with-bulging-transfer-list (under Lee) to European-trophy-winners-full-of-internationals (under Kendall) five-year transformation *now* is minute. We missed the boat in the early 90s and, yes, there's not much difference between us and the Southamptons of this world now.

*Historically*, of course - there's no comparison between EFC and the other 'delusional' clubs you mentioned. 9 times champions, 5 FA Cups, most seasons in top flight, yada yada yada. All a bit meaningless, of course - this slump could easily last as long as the one post-WW2: by the early 50s, Dean, Lawton and Mercer were long-gone and EFC were in the 2nd Div.

I look forward eagerly to Ian Ross *once again* dragging out the 'School of Science' albatross in the Guardian on Mondays over the next few months, for a lame joke and a dig in the ribs of a club already on its knees. I know a Red when I read one.

OK I've seen the red rag and gone full tilt at it. What nonsense! Spurs were the first team to do the double in the 20th Century, the first british team to win a European trophy, only trail in FA cup victories to Man Yoo etc.etc.. I'm sure supporters of the other clubs could trot out similar stats.

Fans will define success in which ever manner best suits their club's historical strengths; Spurs are obviously a great Cup team, who did something in 1961 which had previously been considered 'impossible' in the 'modern' game (unfortunately, the Double became pretty routine in the 90s). Forest fans will wallow in their club's European successes. Wolves fans might have a claim on their side being the best in Europe in the mid-50s (before Euro club competition), but might struggle to claim supremacy in even the West Midlands since. Man City deserve their special status simply for not being Man United.

I figured league titles is as good a measure as any: of the aforementioned clubs, Wolves have 3 titles (all won in the 1950s), City and Spurs two each, Forest one. Everton have nine, which puts us 4th in the all-time list behind Liverpool, Man Utd and Arsenal.

If those three clubs are the *biggest*, we can argue all day about who leads the chasing pack. There's a strong case for saying Leeds Utd, based on their decade of consistency under Revie. *Maybe* Spurs, with all those FA Cups. But Everton, with 98 seasons out of 102 in the top flight and those nine championships, would (surprise!) be my pick.

Not that we're about to close the gap at all...

Goodison Park was absolutely heaving.... I bought tickets in the main stand with the lads, despite the fact that I was leader of Liverpool City Council at the time.... the noise was just incredible.... [The goal by Trevor Steven] simply captured the brilliance of that team and the glory of watching them. He received the ball on the left and gracefully lobbed the goalkeeper from quite some distance. That moment was better than any amount of sec you can possibly imagine.... Steven's run and lob probably lasted six seconds in total, but it seemed like 10 minutes. It was all about the majestic manner in which he did it and the perfect timing.... Only he had the grace and flow of movement to produce a moment of sheer majesty that could encapsulate the team's brilliance.

Personally I think the goal was better than lots of sec, but beyond that I'm not sure.

In a way yes, although Everton are still a loooooong way of challenging for the league. But they do seem better under Moyes (the only British Premier league manager who has a UEFA coaching license apart from Fergie who used his nefarious powers to make himself get one due to ten years in the job) than they were with Smithy. But results such as the one against Man City trhe other week will always count against them. Inconsistecy, that's the problem.

It's up for grabs now!

Why haven't you been so keen on the greatest football club in the world since May 1989 then?

The league has improved quite a lot over the last two years though. I'm impressed.

Some people say that this is the last year before Celtic will need a major overhaul; this team is on its way out. I say that the team is over-staying by one year and that the re-jig should have occurred before 2002-3. In the summer lull. Thomson out, he's as much a chimera as Craig Burley (the Celtic edition), Sylla out (another example of * above), so many other people. Leaving the backbone: Larsson, Sutton, Hartson, Hedman, Mjallby, Lambert/Lennon axis. Build around that, with an eye to getting rid of one of the 2Ls.

- dwh.

I'm loving this little run, obv - but I expect it to end at Newcastle. I do genuinely expect us to be ahead of the red filth by the time The Golden Child signs that contract though. Of course, we'll start to slide in the spring - of course, we'll be mediocre again when the injuries come. But this is a far more impressive core EFC team than the one Royle took to Wembley and the top six in the mid-90s, or the free-scoring Campbell/Jeffers-led side that fancied a stab at a UEFA place for two-thirds of 99-00. Things have changed. Out of the Dark Ages at last.

CHRIS KIRKLAND. HAHA!

Ooh, he might even get a game for his club now Jerzy Nolongerclassicek is flailing a bit.

False dawn!

Losing to Sunderland though, sheesh.

I don't know quite what to make of the Liverpool slump - previous winter blips have always carried an air of inevitability about them, as if LFC were riding their luck a little to be where they were, and a rough patch balanced things up. This season, Liverpool could (and should) have won their opening 12 league games and yet now seem utterly bereft of ideas - the swing seems more extreme than before. Alan Green is not a man to be trusted, but he was scathing about both teams on R5 yesterday.

So, on the one hand, Liverpool seem ripe for the picking by an organised, fluent Everton side full of confidence. On the other, they're, erm, spawny gets who might not lose again until March.

I dunno. I plan to go on a long walk next Sunday.

Final whistle goes at Anfield in a match described by the BBC as "tedious". Of course, I was a great big knotty bundle of scrunched-up bags of entangled nerves, so no trip to a Sky-sporting pub or earphones blaring R5 for me... contented myself with housework, a couple of Sea and Cake LPs and the 'live text' updates on the Beeb's website.

Seemed like LFC edged it, Rooney hit the bar and there were a flurry of nasty tackles and yellow cards at the end.

Thank God that's over. Merry Xmas everybody.

Blackburn beat United 1-0, with a first-half Flitcroft goal. Some ex-international who's been knocking around the MUFC reserves came on for the last half-hour, to no great effect.

It was specifically Jim O'Rourke's "I Took The Opportunity To Antique My End Table" remix off Two Gentlemen that got me through the last seven minutes, if anyone's interested. It could work with, say, Brum-Villa too.

Any thoughts on just what Stevie G was trying to do with that 'tackle'? Apart from end Naysmith's career, that is.

For what it's worth I agree with Radio 5, neither team deserved to win it, but as the Guardian said this morning, Moyes bringing on Roonaldo just as the uintroductyion of Heskey and Smicer (who would ever have thought I'd write that sentence?) was a tactical masterstroke.

Let's hope they survive.

Still never mind, they'll be able to concentrate on the league... must practice saying that for when Chris gets in....

Fantastic. They'll be dancing on Westow Hill tonight.

Word is that Reebok are sponsoring Liverpool to the tune of 100 million and that iit's going to be spent on players (hmmm, and not the new Anfield), but if we ain't in the hampions league, we ain't gong to get the best.

Maybe it depends who's choosing them. Houllier spent 43 million on the following outfield ten:

Heggem, Xavier, Traore, Vignal; Cheyrou, Diomede, Biscan, Smicer; Diouf, Heskey.

What a team, eh? To be fair, in a few cases, they helped win LFC those three cups. But a few more were intended to take LFC to the next level. Next level down, I guess. Houllier does seem to be becoming increasingly paranoid and delusional though (not necessarily about the shots-on-goal thing - they do waste a lot of chances, think of the 0-0 home draw with Sunderland).

Or is this a False Dusk?

Out of those ten, I would keep Vignal (will be good in the future and was pretty cheap, he was flying before he got injured), Diouf (apparently had his best 45 minutes for Liverpool in the first half last night) and of course Heskey, who is a god to me (but I haven't seen *that* miss yet).

Smicer though? the sooner we're rid of him the better, he's rubbish. And I ain't too sure about Cheyrou either.

diouf is sadly maligned but i don't think he'll ever be the ticket. squeezing a bit of value out of him by playing him on the wing won't fool anyone

i love cheyrou!! don't u think he looks really good in possession

If it's good enough for Dudek, then it should be good enough for Golden Boy.

Stick him in the reserves, let him net a few and get his confidence back. This is a good plan, just ask Milan Baros. Although, I still have a sinking feeling that Houllier will insist on picking MO against Boro tomorrow. Bah.

I think the manager needs to stop the slide pronto, or he could be in for a rough ride.

(Nipping this in the bud... any potential Championship Manager 2001/02 talk perhaps deserves its own thread. Or contempt.)

It's the Goodison derby in five days' time and to my pleasant surprise (and, no doubt, to the Rednoses' astonishment) Everton remain a sliver ahead of Liverpool in the table going into it. Reading my cautious blabberings above I think I expected us to be about 11th by Easter weekend.

So, what do we reckon? EFC still grinding out narrow victories, LFC vacillating between brilliant and dismal. I suspect a lot rests on Radzinski's fitness and Hyppia's suspension status.

what are you thinking re: chelsea now dr.c?

At the moment I am extremely worried that we will end up fifth - the Villa loss was a dreadful result. I think West Ham might be a tough game as they need the points and they've beaten us once already this season. For next season we need a stronger/larger squad, espec. for Europe - we've been quite lucky with injuries this year, but may not get away with it again. Big problem - no money Priorities - a) a ballwinner to replace Petit and release Lampard b) an international striker - JimmyFloyd's era may be up, Zola needs handling carefully at 37 and Cole is not yet ready. I'd love to get Beattie, but they can't afford him. c) an attacking/wide or central midfielder to give more cover there. I think DeLucas will come good eventually, but Gronkjaer wavers and Stanic is dreadful.

Everton really running out of steam now - bringing Big Dunc on for the last half hour and pitching balls up for him smacks of the bad old days (but nice when they rebound to Wayne's left foot). Very little going on in midfield, a true creative drought in the derby and simply outpassed by Chelsea (again). Radzinski can't come back quickly enough.

Liverpool now finishing as strongly as they did in 2000-01 (didn't they win 6-0 at Ipswich in the closing stages of that season?); we need a Fowler special at the Anfield Road end next Saturday.

Many people have been talking as though United will win all their remaining games. If they had Sunderland after Charlton I'd agree. But Everton, at Goodison, on the final day? I can't see United winning that. In which case, if Arsenal beat Leeds, Soton and Sunderland, the title is likely theirs - possibly on goal difference. No?

(If Arsenal *don't* win the title, Rooney will have played his part by inflicting their first defeat.)

I think Liverpool should be able to overcome their hoodoo with Chelsea, Baros still missed loads of chances against West Brom.

Though none were as bad as Lampard's glorious miss against Fulham.

Man Utd's Goodison victories have become depressingly routine in recent years - I think the opening day of 99-00 with Jaap Stam's hilarious own goal was the only time in the last seven or eight seasons we've got anything off them. However, we matched them for 86 minutes at Old Trafford and I refuse to contemplate a season like this one ending with the anticlimax of a home defeat to anyone...
so 1-1.

I think Liverpool will lose out on a Champions' League place on the ol' GD an' all. (Ideal scenario: they lose to both Man City and Chelsea, Everton pick up six points and the Blue Dream is realised).

I was at a meeting this morning pitching to run Liverpool and Arsenal's online chatroom/community services. That'd be quite fun, I think. Apparently a previous tech employee was fired, but left himself a back door in, and then informed all the LFC users that the moderating team were all from Manchester. With sexy results!

He didn't use 'Ferguson'.

Language!

I think one factor on the final day will be if Everton have anything to play for. If they need a result for a place in the UEFA cup, not an implausible scenario from memory (I've not checked tables), Man U will have it a lot tougher than if they have nothing to gain.

I'd like to think a Moyes team would make it tough for anybody regardless of the circumstances but the capitulation at Loftus Road this afternoon suggests we're in meltdown now. Pah, I get my fantasy result at Anfield and we go and score two own-goals. Blackburn breathing down our necks now for that last UEFA Cup spot, so I guess I have to hope for an Arsenal-Leeds draw and Fergie sending out the youth team at Goodison for a kickabout.

Magnitude of today's Man U victory makes the GD situation kinda interesting; United could win the title with a draw at Everton if Arsenal's three victories are only by a single-goal margin; if the Arse manage a 2-0 somewhere along the way the Gunners will win it on goals scored, as they did in (look away, Pinefox) 1989.

West Ham-Chelsea sounded like a blinder on the radio. They're still going down, of course.

All this rather irrelevant compared to events in Swansea and Exeter. What a day to get married.

There's a part of me that fears next year could be total meltdown.

Ultimately no better than 95-96 (a false dawn before Royle found the carpet whipped from beneath him); remains to be seen whether Everton's satisfying and surprising season-long upswing will be a precursor to disintegration a la Sunderland and Ipswich (Champs Lge contenders in 99-00 and 00-01 respectively) or whether we're about to rejoin the Big Boys' Club like Newcastle and Chelsea have.

Thing that worries me the most: lack of goals. 48 in 38 Premiership games is not very good, and the only time we hit three all season was in a 4-3 defeat at Tottenham. Seven times we came from behind to win, six of them at home with three of those earned with injury-time wonder-strikes. I can only think of three league wins that could be described as comfortable (Fulham & Leeds home, Bolton away). It's all a bit precarious.

As for Liverpool, their failure to meet their own targets is some consolation for this Bitter Blue. I suppose now that the pre-Xmas slump is an annual treat for all Anfieldphobes, it'll be panic stations next season if Liverpool aren't clear at the top by the end of October. Failure in the Cups and out of touch with the leaders and Houllier might go next January. There's an awful lot of talent there, it doesn't seem to be being marshalled terribly well. The Reds need a Moyes. Or an Allardyce!

Has winning a trophy ever rung so hollow? Or losing one mattered so little?

Unhappy at first, but seeing the Liverpool players celebrate it like they'd just won the treble cheered me up no end.

Considering everything that's happened, saving our worst performance of the second half of the season for that game was a blessing.

somewhere in between, i reckon. i think he's done a great job, with limited resources SO FAR. next season will be a test, but expect a healthy tally from roonaldo.

Use other words please?

Basically was it scored with his head or foot or other part of his body?

(* - a Liverpool-supporting friend of mine, sitting a few rows up in the Kemlyn Rd stand, swore Case's corner swung out of play en route to the six-yard box. We didn't have ProZone or Hawk-eye in those days.)

I remember him (I scarcely have the right to use this ghostly verb; only one man on earth deserved the right...

Oh, dear. Can somebody wipe my brain, please?

I am tempted to say 'Everton should be worried', save that... I don't actually think they should be worried.

Should Liverpool be worried? The Guardian report today says there's a lot of worry around:

Houllier's worries at his players' anxieties

Liverpool 1 - 2 Arsenal

Kevin McCarra at Anfield
Monday October 6, 2003
The Guardian

In the fight for success managers have wretched spells when they feel as if they are trying to thump phantoms. Gérard Houllier is perturbed. Having improved the attacking potential of the Liverpool side, he now finds himself battling on a more mysterious front. The minds of his own players are a greater worry than the abilities of the opposition.

There are no more signings to be made and a dustsheet might as well be thrown over the tactics board. In this defeat by Arsenal it looked as if the side had simply forgotten how to challenge for honours. There was much to admire about Liverpool before the interval but ruthlessness was not among their merits.

Worse still, the team then grew preoccupied with its regrets and let a 1-1 draw shade into a defeat. "The boys got anxious," Houllier admitted. "It was as if they were saying, 'We have done so well, and didn't get the goals we deserve.' It was as if they wanted to keep the result rather than keep going forward."

In such circumstances talent is just a provocation. It annoys supporters to recognise ability that is not made to count. Harry Kewell put Liverpool in front with a rapacious first-time drive after an Edu clearance broke from Michael Owen but his performance is tied to a moodiness that has his impact fluctuating over the course of an afternoon.

Owen himself is usually steadier, yet he malfunctioned before collecting the injury that makes him a doubt for England's match in Istanbul. Given chances to add to the lead, a lob went high after Kewell's flick had sent him through and so too did a header from Steven Gerrard's superb, pacy free-kick.

There was excitement for half an hour. Liverpool are no longer monotonous and the tactic of pairing the elusive Kewell and Owen in attack left Arsenal's powerful centre-backs lacking anyone to grapple with. Houllier's side, though, could not sustain their display and so suffered a second consecutive defeat in the Premiership.

They do not appear remorseless enough to make up lost ground and challenge for the title. It is Arsenal, mystifyingly, who have turned into the kind of hard-bitten line-up whose results can be better than their displays. Only the wonderful winner, when Robert Pires bent a 25-yarder round Jerzy Dudek, revealed the Highbury club's virtuoso traits.

Jérémie Aliadière, in his first start for Arsenal, must have concluded that the Premiership's demands are intimidating but Arsène Wenger almost revelled in his memories of survival in a desperate situation. "We were on the ropes for 25 minutes," the manager said. "We couldn't get out of our half."

Arsenal were level at the interval because Edu's header from a Pires free-kick broke off Sami Hyypia for an own-goal, but Wenger's main thought was that his men needed to push up and choke Liverpool's flow in midfield.

Arsenal, on their Premieship travels, have followed a valuable draw at Manchester United with a win here and Wenger has cause to acclaim the "solidarity" of his squad. All the same the leniency of Houllier's side was still the key to recovery. With Edu a useful deputy for the injured Patrick Vieira, Arsenal eventually started to pass steadily, even if their old élan was lacking.

Although Ashley Cole had to deny Liverpool a late equaliser by blocking El Hadji Diouf's effort on the goal-line, the Highbury team became increasingly composed. Sol Campbell, back in action for the first time since the death of his father 17 days earlier, gradually recovered his focus over the course of the match.

"Sol was a bit in-between on playing; he didn't know if he was ready so I decided just to push him in," Wenger said. "Sol didn't want to let the team down. He was a bit anxious and in the last 20 minutes he looked a bit tired. But you could see that he wanted to dig deep to finish the game well. He needed a lot of mental strength."

The professional concerns of footballers are trifling by comparison with those of a bereaved man but Arsenal are performing with fortitude. It remains to be seen whether the durability will last if there is a battery of suspensions after the fracas at Old Trafford.

Liverpool, however, are currently the more apprehensive club and once again there is talk of Gerrard and Owen seeking transfers if no Champions League place is won. Houllier did not deserve to see such speculation resurface but, although he was blameless on Saturday, it is always the manager's job to suffer.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By David Thomson

May 30, 2002 | Let me leave young women aside for a moment. I will come to
them. But what I want to say first is that this is that moment at which the
world comes to a proper celebration of something men were made to do,
something that is intensely physical yet profoundly imaginative, something
made out of muscle, speed, grace and the soul. I am talking about the World
Cup, about soccer, about football.

I know, that name is not quite allowed in this country because it is
supposed to be kept under lock and key for that other game -- not a bad
game, even if it compels men to be too large and replaces the real
adventures of the mind with the huddles, the jargon and the militaristic
submersion of identity in "planning."

So American football is a fine thing. Still, America could do itself good
all over the world by saying, Well, yes, after all, we all know what
football is, football is the game made by Stanley Matthews, Ferenc Puskas,
Pele, Maradona and Zidane, football is the world's passion and festival, one
of the greatest forms of play ever invented (and a turn-on). Therefore,
"our" "football" needs a new name -- let's call it "gridiron" or "attack" or
whatever you like. "Soccer" is such a stupid name. How many of the children
playing all over the U.S. today actually know why it is called "soccer"? How
many readers of this piece know? (For the answer, see below.) Give us back
the real meaning of "football."

And, no matter that the games are likely to appear on our television at
unearthly hours that do a lot to destroy the other rhythms of life -- you
should attend to this great contest. And its rhythm. Football is a game
played on a pitch at least 100 yards by 60, played at extraordinary pace, in
which most of the players are likely to be driven from end to end, back and
forth, while still finding the time to control, touch, deflect and guide a
ball that bounces to the moods of ground, wind and altitude.

Time and again, in football, you will see young men -- at the limits of
their physical capacity -- do astonishingly inventive things with the
rhythm, the direction and the winning of this very simple game. In its
essence, it should be played without lulls or stoppages. Only then can
change of pace and direction prove so decisive. It is trite to say that
football is like dance. Dance, after all, has no equivalent to danger,
contact, collision and courage. And dance is choreographed. The design is
meant to be carried out to perfection, whereas in football the perfection
will always emerge from spontaneity, accident and momentary impulse.

How sexy is football? As sexy as any performance where young men, trained
all their lives in skills and execution, still discover in an instant the
unexpected, the reversal, the purely personal option within a team's plan.
You will hear that some nations -- the Latin teams, say -- are more
naturally adept at this than others. Not so. Some of the greatest of players
have been European, and northern European at that -- consider Cruyff, Law,
Best, Beckenbauer and so many others. Some of the most turgid, paranoid and
overrehearsed football ever played has come from Italian teams. Still, there
is always the passionate example of Brazil, the savage moodiness of
Argentina, the exuberance of African teams and who knows what dark horse
this time?

Football does not take root in the U.S., so they say, and there are all the
old reasons -- not enough goals, not enough opportunities for commercial
breaks, an absence of melodramatic violence, too much stress on the mind.
Well, maybe America can and will live with those crushing definitions of
itself.

Or maybe it will observe something that is American in origin yet still not
figured out in many football-crazy nations: that it is a terrific game for
women. For if we have discovered something feminine in the game, then surely
the world is helped in enjoying the way men move. In that glimpse of
America's insecure maleness, there lies a way in which our culture of might
really moves ahead. But that would depend on more ordinary Americans
discovering the intensely sexual, intellectual allure of the game. Every
four years you get a new chance to abandon helmets, padding and the war
cries of the Marines -- and show us your legs, your knees, your thighs, your
invention.

*The game is called soccer because as it developed in Britain, it acquired a
Football Association (an organizing structure) to distinguish it from rugby.
The "soccer" comes from the "soc" in association. Which is not really a
proper way to name a great game.

As far as I know the same is true of Steven Gerrard.

I suspect we'll thump someone out of sight once every seven or eight games and the rest of the time won't be able to find the key to the garage door, never mind first gear. 10th at best. With Liverpool 11th.

What do the other Liverpool people around here think? And the non Liverpool people also?

Everton 1-0 Liverpool, Andy King 58min; Mike Pejic's long free-kick, Martin Dobson's knockdown (or was he outjumped by Phil Thompson?) and King's swerving 'fluke' volley from 25 yards. Clemence looked bewildered, shamed, hurt.

The sun dipping behind the Park End stand, flooding the BBC lenses, lending the whole thing a washed out, unreal feel. Couldn't we have scored in front of the Gwladys Street - dancing mass of blue, in full 625line contrast? No, this was better - look at the miserable sods behind the goal.

"Delirium at Goodison Park!" squealed Young Tyldesley on 194m MW. The same watery autumn glare in our old front room, Clive on the stereogram, my brother staring at the same piece of carpet for the last 32 minutes, hoping, praying (we still did then).

Richard Duckenfield's breathless fulltime scoop interview gets as far as "Andy King..." before a jobsworth rednose bobby intervenes. "Gerrof the pitch..." A staple on What Happened Next for years.

Magic/tragic/etc.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/3261175.stm

When he turned on a tuppence and pelted the post from nowhere I think I actually heard myself exclaiming "ROY OF THE ROVERS!".

A fan is reported as saying: 'all the talk's about catching up with Manchester United... but 14 years ago we were way ahead of them in terms of success, income and support'.

(14 years! It sounds like the kind of thing that... that *I'd* say.)

(Those bags, by the way - what a strange convention they were, utterly accepted and almost omnipresent, yet now presumably nonexistent.

I assume we know what bags I'm talking about.)

Perhaps the meaning of it all is that Liverpool now mean football's past? So I am keen on them.

cf. David Lacey's Guardian article also.

Everton were alas defeated in the capital.

Anyway -- assuming a Liverpool comeback of some kind, how far can it go?

I hate Michael Howard more than ever right now.

Kilbane and Jeffers good again vs Fulham, but we wasted too many early chances. I fancy us in the forthcoming Cup rematch though.

Much talk a la: "Liverpool now have to prove they're worthy of him".

But why? He is part of the team which has (relatively) failed - is he worthy of Liverpool? Shouldn't he be going out and proving it?

Insofar as he's not part of the failed team, it's because he has repeatedly seemed to play so few matches per season. So shouldn't he also be proving that he's fit enough to be offered a contract?

Dear me, BIG SAM and his TV promoter Robbie Earle won't like that.

It's sad, there was so much promise a couple of years ago and now what? sliding again into turgid mediocrity

Aren't people overestimating the quality of the Liverpool squad a bit? I mean, they're 26 points off the title pace - that's not all down to GH's tactics/motivational skills, is it? They're clearly a cut above the Premiership median and still probably favourites for 4th spot (57-60pts will do it this season) but this seems a weaker collective pool of talent than 2000-01 (OK, that is GH's fault).

I still think they'll get fourth. Does that constitute a decent season? I dunno.

Everton are even worse.

I liked Ian St John's claim that Houll the Ghoull is transforming the Anfield faithful into 'zombies', traipsing across a mist-shrouded Stanley Park.

That's nine misses in nineteen attempts! Who else would have him?

Everton - the Grand Old Relegation Struggle again. We can't even comfort ourselves with the notion that it's us and a dozen others because a gap has developed in the last couple of weeks and we're on the wrong end of it. I'm going to see them on Saturday - my first trip to Goodison in a decade - and hopefully it'll be our first league win of 2004. If not, I don't see us keeping the likes of Leeds, Wolves and Leicester at bay with any ease - none of them are in freefall, they're still snaffling up points here and there.

We seem to miss a similar proportion of chances to Liverpool, we just create a third as many. And we're leaky at the back in a way not hinted at by 02-03. This season we possession-dominate 0-1 defeats; last season we pinched even-steven games with late wonder-strikes. Gravesen is the most frustrating player to watch - occasionally inspired and inspiring, he misdirects more passes in 90 minutes than Paul Bracewell did in his whole career.

What I've seen of Cisse he's been great, but always with the backing of Kapo while playing for Auxerre, maybe Kewell will provide similar service if he ever decides to start being a decent player again.

I'm not sure about that - he only played a dozen or so games last campaign but started this season in great form (the hat-trick against Leeds being the highlight) and then got injured. But, yes, terribly ineffective since his return. We've missed a fit Kevin Campbell this year but we're going to have to get used to that - it's twilight time for KC.

Ha, just checked the stats on the website and Gravesen makes 77% of his passes, making him EFC's Mr Accuracy. Sorry, Thom!

Mike - I hope you're taking a camera!

(Not Titi.)

Did I hear him say at the weekend that he had lost his job hosting hospitality suites because of being critical of Houllier last year?

Liverpool revived their bid for a Champions League spot with a convincing victory over Portsmouth. A stunning volley from Dietmar Hamann and two goals from Michael Owen lifted the Reds into fifth place, a point adrift of Charlton.

Owen tucked away his first from six yards before sealing a welcome return to form with a second-half header.

Emile Heskey might have made it four late on when he headed against a post, while Portsmouth offered little.

Defeat left Portsmouth in the bottom three, still two points adrift of safety.

But have Liverpool now turned another corner?

And has Merseyside sent Portsmouth down?

I read today someone espousing Heskey for Centre back - this smacks of twisted genius

Chris, I wouldn't say losing 4-0 at home to Villa constitutes form for Wolves.

Unless Boro have one hell of a run in. And no one wants that.

I can't work out if this makes sense or not. I am dumb.

Are you positing yourself, or me, as the middle-class know-nothing?

I am middle-class but re. football I know something more than nothing.

Arsenal vs Liverpool

Everton vs Tottenham

TWO BIG MATCHES

CAN HOULLIER'S MEN STOP GUNNERS IN THEIR... TRACKSUITS?

Can someone tell me what's happened to the Southampton-Newcastle fixture? Bobby R made some reference to that now being NUFC's last game of the season, but surely there can't be games beyond 15/5?

Yes, but even the defeat vs Marseille was a reasonable performance until the bizarro red-card-penalty incident. Better than the home leg, I thought. I thought the 3-0 vs Pompey and 4-0 vs Blackburn were universally acclaimed in a way few winning L'pool performances have been this season. Or maybe that was just the media pendulum swinging back from the Houll Crisis position.

Maybe the long spell of patience should have been kept for Roy, I don't know. GH has to go this summer anyway, regardless of the position the team finishes in.

Oh, my heart skips at the notion of "joint manager".

Liverpool under Evanshoullier, Aug-Nov 1998:

P13, W4, D4, L5 - 12th in Prem, out of league cup at home to Spurs.

UEFA - won against 9-men Spanish team through own goal in extra-time; Spanish team have never been heard of since.

FA Cup - should have been about 4-0 down then two goals with two attacks in the last 10 mins

League Cup - Beat a 1st Division side on penalties

A fitting epitaph for Gerard.

Tuesday, Nov 10, 1998

Liverpool 1 (Owen 80)
Tottenham Hotspur 3 (Iversen 2, Scales 19, Nielsen 61)

Arsenal lost 5-0 at home to Chelsea the following night!

I suppose that 11.98, Owen was still England's brightest young star?

Uh-oh -- he still is?

That was only... 2 years ago?

Pay per view maybe? It might be on in a pub here except all pubs and off licences are closed today.

x-post

radio won't work for me for some reason.

Apparent;y Henry's second has to be seen to be believed "Maradonna-esque" What so a defender should have kicked his legs away as he was approaching the area?

I was tickled by the delicious notion that Arsenal could remain unbeaten in the Premiership AND STILL NOT WIN IT. Three wins and four draws in the remaining seven - Chelsea could pip them.

mm or attempted waving a leg or vaguely moving towards him, that would have been good too

Fear not, I have plenty of my own.

I don't think that every failed penalty appeal should be a booking.

For this aggressive, active player to... 'collect' his first buiking of the season (!) in this way says that something went wrong.

I heard a fan (?) on R5 yesterday squalling about the heckling and banners that would force Houllier out. It was enough to make anyone back GH. It felt wrong, trés wrong.

That's awful though, the idea of booing the whole team from the start of a game.

Rednose Short Memory Syndrome in full effect. 1998-99, folks. Let's not forget 1998-99 (Christ, at one point heading into Xmas we only trailed you on goal diff - and this was in Walter Smith's shambolic first season when we couldn't score at Goodison!)

Whilst it's encouraging that Charlton, Newcastle and maybe even Villa can catch Liverpool now I refuse to believe any of those clubs can do it. I'm more concerned about the growing 34pt-club at the bottom and preventing Leeds' membership of it.

I predicted a Top 6 finish for Villa back in August. If they actually get one I will be really fucked off about not going down the bookies. But then again I predicted Fulham to finish secon from bottom...

I don't think they deserve Champions' League, though.

I am the thief of ire.

If they deserve to finish top six then they need to generate more points in the season than the team that finishes seventh. That's all it is.

If anyone even attempts to do this I will come and slap them.

Mikey, are you angling for a revival of the thread that dare not speak its name?

I think LUFC would make fine members of that stupid club. I wish the LUFC-EFC game this evening were to be televised. I wonder if 5 Live will give it proper coverage, or whether they'll focus on MUFC-LCFC tedium.

Fascinating fact for this evening: Eddie Gray's Leeds have an extremely good record when playing teams managed by Scots.

I think someone should come up with an equation. Where n = the number of fit birds per stadia and f = quality of the pies.

Also if you look at the league table, there's no guarantee of Liverpool getting into Europe AT ALL this year, I sincerely hope they do and think they should nick the Champions League spot but the teams are all very close, and the reality is that every time I have thought Liverpool are back on track this year they've messed up all over again.

And why is he not subsequently viewed as dubious at... "man-management"?

I was genuinely miffed by Blackburn's win last night - I went to bed thinking the 2-1 halftime score was the fulltime score and watched in horror as the goals flew in. Souness must go down.

I have given my view on Villa already.

Glad that Everton held out.

-- the roonfox (pinefo...), April 13th, 2004.

(I am sorry to disappoint - I have not yet formulated my big extended philosophical thing on Aston Villa.)

I am stuck too, though not, oddly, in 1978. I suppose if I were, we could keep each other company.

I have mailed you elsewhere so hope that works.)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/3697713.stm

???

This is an especially miserable moment to revive this thread - Everton on the verge of completing one of their worst seasons of all time (9 wins - which we won't add to at City - equalling 71-72, 79-80 and 97-98's nadirs) while Liverpool will be Champions Leaguers again tomorrow night courtesy of Southampton.

Turned out nice again, in't it?

Something I don't like: Michael Owen saying 'my contract negotiations will last a long time... they're not the kind of thing you can sort out in a week', plus 'it's not about money'.

So what is it about? 'Finding out whether the club are ambitious enough to take my career to the next level', maybe? I don't see how prolonged contract negotiations can resolve such a question.

I also think, as probably I have already said on this thread, that Owen owes Liverpool something now, not the other way around.

I don't like the way he keeps his clean and local image despite being essentially greedy and disloyal.

Just realised that I've not added that the real hero / villain of this thread is Howard kendall. When he left, Harvey became manager, in an attempt (I suspect) to recreate the boot room culture (and no bad thing for cottoning onto continuity as key facet of success). However, Harvey never replaced himself, and thus the Everton scouting system missed some young lads who as Evertonians, really wanted to play for the club. Like Fowler. Like McManaman, and like the boy Michael. Opps. Big fucking oops.

I'd resigned myself before tonight that Liverpool missing out on the mother of all club competitions would only be like Becker skipping the clay court season with a knee injury - kinda satisfying but ultimately you know you'd be missing out on some possible comedy.

4th place, though...wow. It's absolutely the best you could've hoped for and you've done it. Crack open the sparkling wine. I'll have a gin and bitter lemon.

20, probably 23 come Saturday. That's a lot - it was down to seven or eight a few weeks ago. All sour barbs aside, Liverpool *have* finished strongly - you were bound to prosper once Houll remembered who was supposed to take the pens.

I wonder if I've still got that Marseille game on tape? I need cheering up.

Would like to reiterate what a cracking game that was last night. It makes you wonder how 0-0 bore draws can happen. End to end, great saves, you knew goals would be scored, rookie youngsters trying to prove themselves etc. An unexpected delight.

and is sky showing the lakers/Spurs game?

oh oh, I seem to have caught amurikan

Milwall could do more damage to Europe than Hitler.

hmmm, we need to think on this

Now, let's talk about something else. Like naked girls dripped in beeswax.

Yes, three Yoofa Cup places - only two national associations get four and I'm guessing that's Italy and Spain currently. There's always sneaking in the back door via the Intertoto (no English clubs this year?) or the Fair Play assessment.

No applications from English clubs for intertoto places this year. Not sure if UEFA's fair place nonsense will include English clubs though.

Best thread ever.

A thought which struck me is: I wonder how he would feel, about this season, if he did not like Arsenal.

And Birmingham.

...and Bolton. They're best ever Premiership season and a cup final.

for many teams, it seems a curious season

Champions League semi-final and second in the league, surpassing Man U? Given that they were 10-1 for the title even after Abramovich had taken over and bought half the world, I'd say this was a good season.

I am coming to the conclusion that it is the stupidest thing stevem has ever said.

And hasn't Peter Kenyon (who is an absolute prat) declared Chelsea's season a failure?

I don't understand all these Chelsea fans and board members crying about it. It's not like they aren't going to be winning trophies and in the Champions League next season and every season until Abramovich decides its safe to pull all his dodgy money out of the UK.

Ha - Bigot Ron was good enough, but Bigotron takes it to another level.

Peter Kenyon is to be disregarded. It was only a disappointment because they came so close.

I heard the other day that Abramovich had no expectations of winning anything in the first season anyway.

So, out of all the Premiership clubs, which is the one that had the most average season (didn't exceed expectations or disappoint). Southampton?

Southampton beat Man Utd (it seemed impressive at the time at least) and Liverpool twice - a good season for them but nothing to really show for it.

I think you've got to hand it to Birmingham City really.

I would big up Birmingham more, if I didn't really dislike Brucey

FAT GEORDIE BASTARD, HE'S JUST A FAT GEORDIE BASTARD

at mrs bruce, which made me chuckle...

(x-post)

My admiration for Birmingham is based solely on league placing and my natural belief that they are always shit. I don't like Robbie Savage either, but I think that's part of his job, to be as much of a cunt as possible.

Meanwhile Keegan gives 2 years' notice to quit.

Over the park: Gerrard making grumbling noises and Heskey gone. Thoughts, Red people?

riise (what happened to him this season, he was rather anonymous i thought), murphy and kewell i suppose, but not exactly championship winning is it?

However according to Alan Smith's agent he wants a move to Man Ure [so he can be a posing big time charlie]

Man Ure have only bid 5 million?

Therefore for Leeds United fans this a double whammy: player goes to hated rivals and they get screwed in the transfer market.

by the way Houllier deserves the sack, Liverpool need a fresh start. i hope the board has the guts to act now and not waste another year of underachievement.

GALACTICO!

(robbing scousers = lfc is they take Barton etc)

We need to continue with the signing of Cisse, it's imperative. I'd rather we signed SWP than Barton to be honest.

O'neill should be new manager, not Curbs or Mclaren.

Apparently Kenwright is looking for 10 mil of money from "new loans (eek!!!), a new Thai sponsor (Merseyside to be renamed New Siam?) and some re-mortgages of his properties"

I would be happiest with Jellybean Benitez, but Curbs might be good.

Also Liverpool Won't Win The Premiership 2004-2005?

Is this really worth posting? They weren't going to win it with Houllier in charge anyway.

Curbishley is a great manager, Charlton don't have much money (just like with O'neill and leicster) and I think he could get this if O'neill really isn't available.

I just don't like Curbishley, he doesn't seem sharp enough to me. Also he hasn't done amazingly well, who's to say they don't have a crap season next year, highly likely I'd wager.

Why hasn't anyone started a Houllier to Spurs rumour?

Charlton do have money to spend. Remember Scott Parker?

I enjoyed his hangdog face, his delusional rants and the missus had a real soft spot for him. I'll miss the fella.

xpost

Are you trying it, Jerry? I think Jerry's trying it. Don't try it. Just don't. DO. NOT. TRY. IT.

If he left, would Moyes be temptable? Being an Celt and all that?

I've said it before - if hew goes, put money on them for the league.

It's news to me, though old news.

Liverpool won't win the Premiership title 2004-5. And NOW you're gonna believe me.

"I may have left Liverpool, but Liverpool will not leave me," said Houllier.

One would have to be an insensitive chump not to be a little moved by this.

Mikkel, you should apply for the job yourself

As long as it involves telecommuting or, at a pinch, a portakabin in Stanley Park.

I started the Liverpool Won't Win The Title to make, and discuss, the point that I thought that Liverpool would not win the title -- at a time when, unlike now, various people were saying that they would. (Robin Carmody, for one, was emphatic.)

They did not win the title: I was correct. I like Liverpool, much more than I did, say, 10 or 15 years ago: and I would have been delighted if they had won the title this year.

I also like M. Houllier, a lot, and have done for a long time: search far and wide through ilx and find something that contradicts this.

Liked the man, though.

Ranieri still hasn't been properly sacked, has he? What price a Claudio to Liverpool, do you think? If Martin O'Neill really does go to Spurs instead of Liverpool he is a fule, and I say that as a Spurs fan.

x-post

Liverpool would have a chance of winning the title in 2005/2006 with them - the First Division title !

Martian tickles me.

He really does, the more I read his work.

also claudio has said he is very happy in london, so he must be after the barnet job...

x-post.

He has part of a finger missing too.