Samuel Alito is the next new Supreme Court nomination

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And he seems to be a real fuckwit.

Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:37 (twenty years ago)

Who the eff is Samuel Alito?

giboyeux (skowly), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:43 (twenty years ago)

http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/10/31/PH2005103100240.jpg

Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:46 (twenty years ago)

Samuel A. Alito Jr., 55, is a jurist in the mold of Justice Antonin Scalia. Nicknamed "Scalito," or "little Scalia," by some lawyers, the federal appeals court judge is a frequent dissenter with a reputation for having one of the sharpest conservative minds in the country.

-Washington Post

Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:47 (twenty years ago)

Among his noteworthy opinions was his lone dissent in the 1991 case of Planned Parenthood v. Casey, in which the Third Circuit struck down a Pennsylvania law that included a provision requiring women seeking abortions to notify their spouses.

-AP

Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:50 (twenty years ago)

'Scalito' bodes ill.

The planned parenthood decision bodes well.

The white house press release says "as United States Attorney for the District of New Jersey... he (wa)s best known for prosecuting white collar and environmental crimes, drug trafficking, organized crime, and violations of civil rights," which sounds like they're pandering to me, which always makes me suspicious coming from the Bushoids.

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:55 (twenty years ago)

//The planned parenthood decision bodes well.//

Note that he was the lone DISSENT in the court's decision to strike down the law.

Super Cub (Debito), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:57 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, I was about to say! Read carefully there.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 13:58 (twenty years ago)

...are there any Miers As Stalking Horse theories going around right now? This guy, whatever his politics are, seems WAAAAY more qualified than Miers. Like, why didn't he go with him in the first place?

Miers may have been set up for failure in order to grease the wheels for Alito's nomination.

Or not.

giboyeux (skowly), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:06 (twenty years ago)

That idea's been floated for some time in various corners. I honestly don't think it would have been worth the last month for Bush in political terms.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:08 (twenty years ago)

By the looks of him, I'd say we're all boned.

Maxwell von Bismarck (maxwell von bismarck), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:09 (twenty years ago)

Like, why didn't he go with him in the first place?

1. White male
2. Not an oval office crony

I do feel guilty for getting any perverse amusement out of it (Rock Hardy), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:11 (twenty years ago)

"Read carefully there."

Too early for that bullshit. Whoopsie!

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Monday, 31 October 2005 14:18 (twenty years ago)

The implication is that Bush's "just reg'lar folks" demeanor led him to everywoman Miers, which I suppose is admirable in its miscalculation. He supposedly didn't want to pick a career judge, which is kinda wacky for, um, a Supreme Court nomination.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:00 (twenty years ago)

She's got a good heart. That's all that counts.

when something smacks of something (dave225.3), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:11 (twenty years ago)

Well, I don't think anyone - Bush included - would say that about Alito!

As unqualified as she clearly was, I'm beginning to think some rightwing columnists were right when they said her withdrawl would be ultimately regretted by the left for years to come.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:19 (twenty years ago)

elderly msp says, "scarlito's way! great movie! you don't have any peanuts do you?"

em.

msp (mspa), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:27 (twenty years ago)

man, it was really fun to watch the conservatives be in disarray for a few weeks. i suppose now it'll be back to "bush as the great unificater" again.

m.

msp (mspa), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:30 (twenty years ago)

Am I the only one who, upon hearing his name on the radio this morning, assumed he was Hispanic?

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:37 (twenty years ago)

racist

Jimmy Mod Is The Damnation (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:51 (twenty years ago)

italian aint it?? another catholic

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:52 (twenty years ago)

Clearly Bush is the Antichrist! Oh wait.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:53 (twenty years ago)

concurring opinion in Planned Parenthood of Central New Jersey v. Farmer, 220 F.3d 127 (3rd Cir. 2000) in which Judge Alito recognized that a New Jersey law banning "partial-birth abortions" was unconstititional in light of the recent Supreme Court case of Stenberg v. Carhart, 530 U.S. 914, 120 S.Ct. 2597, 147 L.Ed.2d 743 (2000).

thats good!!!

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:54 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, Italian. I just didn't think Bush would nominate another white male.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 31 October 2005 16:56 (twenty years ago)

A majority opinion in Shore Regional High School Board of Education v. P.S., 381 F.3d 194 (3d Cir. 2004), holding that a school district did not provide a high school student with a free and appropriate public education, as required by the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act, when it failed to protect the student from bullying by fellow students who taunted the student based on his lack of athleticism and his perceived sexual orientation.

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:57 (twenty years ago)

he really doesnt seem that bad! better than scalia, rehnquist or thomas

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

how will the gang of 14 treat this dude? cant imagine resistance from mccain, warner, or really any republicans but maybe graham or dewine?? on the dems side maybe umm byrd and inouye? he really is well qualified

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:02 (twenty years ago)

i misheard at first and thought it was just "ito".

http://www.ukar.org/temp/ito01.jpg

msp (mspa), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:03 (twenty years ago)

theres a suspiciously vague aclu case i cant really parse the wording of, apparently he didnt think a govt sponsered nativity was unconstitutional as long as non-religious figures like santa were present but then the aclu said they dealth with a case only regarding christian iconography?? i just skimmed it but its confusing

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:07 (twenty years ago)

Does Santa deliver Kwanzaa presents now?

Also, this is pretty much what everyone was expecting and probably what Reid feared when he decided to back MIers to the hilt. Better a quasi-moderate fool than lil' Scalia.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:11 (twenty years ago)

is it really worth comprising the integrity of the supreme court to bargain on the chance that one of harriet miers kitties would meow the right number of times at the tea party to convince her not to overturn roe v wade? this guy is a dick for sure but hes not as batshit far right as half the court (even roberts, it seems) and he seems like a smart dude, im not shitting myself til they dig up a really scary previous decision and so far that planned parenthood ruling aint it (he also voted against a ban on partial birth abortion)

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:16 (twenty years ago)

tho i do admit he kinda looks like a suspect from early 90s law & order

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:18 (twenty years ago)

Thanks for the groundwork, Ethan -- after Miersmania I'm feeling a touch burned out.

probably what Reid feared when he decided to back MIers to the hilt

He most certainly did not do that beyond the initial commentary. He wasn't Hugh Hewitt for heaven's sake!

Was Alito on that list that Reid initially gave the White House?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:22 (twenty years ago)

>I'm beginning to think some rightwing columnists were right when they said her withdrawl would be ultimately regretted by the left for years to come.<

If by "the left" you mean "Democrats" ... Jesus.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:26 (twenty years ago)

From the Drudge Report, apparently claiming the "Scalito" nickname is ETHNICALLY OFFENSIVE.

One outraged Republican strategist claimed, “If Alito were a liberal there would be no way Democrats and Washington’s media elite would use such a ethnically insensitive nickname. Italian-Americans should not have to face these types of derogatory racial slurs in 21st century America.�

Can someone explain this to me? I don't get it.

elmo (allocryptic), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

reid opposed him but i remember his name on some top 4 lists preceding roberts' nom, you dont forget that creepy 'scalito' thing

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:27 (twenty years ago)

haha xpost, dom passantino to thread

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:28 (twenty years ago)

The 'slur' thing is pathetic GOP coldblooded fake outrage... or 'PC of the Right.'

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:32 (twenty years ago)

I think they're saying Scalito is offensive the way calling a Jewish person "Bergstein" or a Chinese person "Lee Chang" would be offensive. But in this case, it's nothing like that. It's a stupid claim.

when something smacks of something (dave225.3), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:33 (twenty years ago)

i dunno if i'd take too much solace from those relatively late decisions. even U.S. court of appeals judges are constrained in how much they can do even with laws that they may not like very much. if the law is relatively settled and depending on the facts, they really can't overturn such laws -- at best, they can nip away at the margins.

at this point, all i know about alito is largely anecdoctal -- (a) he's been on bushco's short-list from the get-go; (b) he was a favorite of my law school Federalist Society friends -- since he presides in the same fed. district where i went to school, a number of them wanted to clerk for him (so that's probably not a very good thing).

this guy probably sucks, but i reserve judgment on just how bad he's going to be.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:33 (twenty years ago)

i reserve judgment on just how bad he's going to be.

Me too. At the moment I'm just happy we weren't presented with Janice Rogers Brown.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:36 (twenty years ago)

is it really worth comprising the integrity of the supreme court to bargain on the chance that one of harriet miers kitties would meow the right number of times at the tea party to convince her not to overturn roe v wade?

Yes. I'll take a 20% chance that we get someone not to the far-right on every issue, 'integrity' be damned. Every indication is that Alito is even more of an ideologue and more predictable than Scalia - which doesn't bode well for the next fourty years.

xpost with Eisbar - you aren't going to find a smoking gun opinion from his appeals court.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:38 (twenty years ago)

all yall know i hate scalia as much as anybody but this is a perceptive, engaging review - compare to all known miers documents and i really start to consider lines not drawn along a spectrum of left vs right but competence vs lack of, and i would rather have a "scalito" than miers, just like if i was republican id rather have stephen reindhardt or lawrence karlton on the bench than rush limbaugh

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

Is there the possibility that the fake outrage over the "Scalito" nickname is a way of faking a "minority" status? That is, did Italian-Americans just become "ethnic" / "not white" again?

elmo (allocryptic), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

>doesn't bode well for the next fourty years.

Alito is 55.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

'integrity be damned' well done milo, i suggest bush nominate cindy sheehan for chief justice, its all means to an end right

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:43 (twenty years ago)

im sorry, is there a legitimate sense in which italian-americans are not a minority ethnicity? most white folks are german-american

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)

amazing but true facts: rush limbaugh's dad is a federal judge (in missouri). and his cousin is a judge on the missouri supreme court.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:44 (twenty years ago)

GO PHILLY... just kidding.

maria tessa sciarrino (theoreticalgirl), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:45 (twenty years ago)

i suggest bush nominate cindy sheehan for chief justice, its all means to an end right

I'd be entertained.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:46 (twenty years ago)

Anyway, unsurprisingly I side with Ethan in re: Miers v. Alito, for pretty much the same reasons. I'm not sanguine about Alito but Miers was clearly a hack nomination from the get-go.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

i also like scalia cuz he reminds me of italian-american rapper vinny paz
http://www.stockpix.com/stock/news/9980.jpghttp://www.hamburghiphop.de/misc/bilder/vinnie_paz_1.jpg

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

the C&L round-up of commentary & whatnot...

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

The sense in which Italian-Americans are an integrated portion of white America?

And yeah, integrity be damned. It's a political body, why pretend otherwise? I fail to see why I should cheer on qualifications and worry about integrity when they just mean that for my lifetime, the Supreme Court will consistently be ruling against me on everything I care about.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:50 (twenty years ago)

plenty of blog folks on both sides are now saying "Oh it's ON!"

Over at National Review's The Corner, Jonah Goldberg is also prepping for a fight, writing that "this is the guy. Cokie Roberts said a senior Demcratic senator has already denounced Alito as a 'rightwing whacko' or words to that effect. Nina Totenberg called him 'filibuster bait.' Even now, Federalist Society and NARAL types are running around town ducking their heads into barber shops and shoe shine parlors, shouting 'It's on! It's on!' Those inside throw down their newspapers, haircuts unfinished, and race to the law libraries ... The seventh seal has been broken, the goat entrails point toward gotterdamerung, it's on."

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:51 (twenty years ago)

what is your basis for the assumption that he will rule against you on everything you care about?

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)

The seventh seal has been broken, the goat entrails point toward gotterdamerung, it's on."

Presumably if all the fundie wackos get swept up in the rapture, they won't have the votes to break a filibuster.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:53 (twenty years ago)

are hispanic and asian americans no longer minorities as well because many of them are integrated into white america?

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

is jonah goldberg a fundie wacko?

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

is jonah goldberg a fundie wacko?

Does it matter?

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 31 October 2005 17:54 (twenty years ago)

is paul krugman a terrorist?

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

does it matter?

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

Um, Hispanic and Asian-Americans aren't integrated into white America. Both are separated by culture, ethnicity and most importantly language. They aren't considered 'white' by the David Dukes of the country.

Is there an epidemic of anti-Italian discrimination I'm unaware of?

what is your basis for the assumption that he will rule against you on everything you care about?
Every last thing I've read about him?

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

Just an idle thought, but... Harry Reid has already criticized the President for choosing a white man for O'Connor's seat on the bench. So the Right Wing talking point is to make Alito a victim of "ethnic slurs," somehow casting him as a minority.

The idea that an Italian-American nominee is as much a victory for diversity as, say, a Latino or African-American nominee, is laughable at best. Next thing you know, the Irish will be an "ethnic minority" again, too.

elmo (allocryptic), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

He's gonna suck. He might suck in a smarter and more scholarly way than Miers, but he'll still suck. Won't be none of us here sitting around in 10 years saying, "Hey, ol' Sam turned out OK."

what is your basis for the assumption that he will rule against you on everything you care about?

Probably won't on everything, but if I'm not unhappy with a sizable majority of his most important opinions, then the people who are backing him are gonna be really pissed. He's being put up as the fulfillment of the conservative dream. This is more important to them than the presidency.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:01 (twenty years ago)

Also the "ethnic slur" thing is reminiscent of D'Amato getting all outraged when someone (Schumer?) called him a fascist -- saying it was a slam against his ethnicity (because of Mussolini, I guess) rather than a critique of his political philosophy.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:04 (twenty years ago)

so yall are saying that celebrities like freddie prinze jr or keanu reeves are not "integrated into white society"? do you view white college guys with asian girlfriends as interracial or cross-cultural relationships? plenty of david duke types and white nationalists dont recognize eastern europeans, italians, sicilians, or polish catholics. many of them dont recognize irish catholics. there is certainly a greater level of integration with white society than hispanic or asian americans but to claim that italian-americans are universally "white" is bullshit, sacco & vanzetti was just 80 years ago

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

They aren't considered 'white' by the David Dukes of the country.

Neither, really, are the Italians but that's just quibbling.

Effectively, no, there is no mass discrimination policy against Italians, no one seems to care that much these days, but calling them "fully integrated" with white America is a stretch, I mean we're talking large pockets of mostly Italian culture in certain areas of the country only, not really as wide spread as the Germans and Irish and Englishes have done.

Also go fuck yourself with the language thing, most Hispanics and Asians I know speak English. Most even as a first language!

That all being said, wtf? I mean isn't the Scalito joke obvious? It's a combination of their two names, what in the hell. It's not like they're calling him Guido McGuidoface.

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

i mean why care about anti-semitism either since jews are "integrated into white society"

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:07 (twenty years ago)

Well, obviously the conservative strategy of getting people to talk about an alleged ethnic slur instead of the body of Alito's work as a jurist is working just fine, so far.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

and yeah its true that crying racism about 'scalito' is retarded but the response that theres no such thing as anti-italian racism or that italian-americans arent a "real" minority is even stupider and further alienates the left (so you can count on them to keep doing it)

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

except the part at the top of the thread where i talked about the body of his work until i got tired of idiots saying there was no predjudice against italians or catholics anymore

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

except the part at the top of the thread where i talked about the body of his work until i got tired of idiots saying there was no predjudice against italians or catholics anymore

Don't worry, my operating assumption is that you are always right.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:10 (twenty years ago)

A unique candidate, in that he lives in the same NJ burg that sired 22nd and 24th President Grover Cleveland. In this millennium, before Samuel, Caldwell's claim to fame was the house where HBO's Sopranos live. Aspen Drive. Check it out.

scrimhaw1837 (son_of_scrimshaw), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:11 (twenty years ago)

Yes, in isolated pockets - there might be residual ill-feeling in New York City or areas where Italian immigrants settled 50-100 years ago. But by and large, across the other 99.5% of the country's landmass, no such ill feeling exists. Elmo hit the one I almost mentioned - the Irish were, once upon a time, treated badly as funny-speaking immigrants, too. But no longer.

It's nice that most you know speak English (me too!), but language - and accent - is still a major barrier for Asian and (esp.) Hispanic acceptance in white America.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

except the part at the top of the thread where i talked about the body of his work until i got tired of idiots saying there was no predjudice against italians or catholics anymore
Is there? How many cathedrals get burned down every year?

When was the last time a Papist got lynched?

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

That all being said, wtf? I mean isn't the Scalito joke obvious? It's a combination of their two names, what in the hell. It's not like they're calling him Guido McGuidoface.

rasheed and Ally OTM -- the issue of wop-WASP integration w/r/t Alito's nomination is a total non-starter.

Body of work, plz. Ethan, continue.

giboyeux (skowly), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

(xpost, of course)

If he's like Scalia, then his vaunted sharpness and intelligence will be used to come up with plausible 'consitutional principles' tailored to fit the desired outcome.

The problem with this kind of tailoring is that it isn't actually principled at all. If 'state's rights' is the bus going east and you want to go east, then you get on the 'state's rights' bus. If you'd rather go west, you get on the 'federalism' bus. Look at Scalia in Bush v. Gore and you'll see these kind of pseudo-principles at their finest.

This is exactly what conservatives want when they speak of judicial qualifications and fitness for the court. Scalia represents everything that gave Jesuits a bad name.

Aimless (Aimless), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:15 (twenty years ago)

I'm already tired of the resurgent Mel Gibson wing of Catholicism crying discrimination every time someone objects to one of their various efforts to restart the Inquisition. Yes, there is anti-Catholicism -- one of my wife's nephews went to a hardcore Christian school where he learned that Catholics are heretics the Pope is a tool of the anti-Christ. That's got fuck-all to do with not wanting judicial fundamentalists on the Supreme Court, whatever their denomination.

xpost re the "tailoring": right, which is why these guys are just as "activist" as anyone else, and their pretense that they're defending some constitutional purity is offensively disingenuous.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

Yes, an isolated sub-Jack Chick cartoon proves that Italian-Americans are, in fact, a viciously oppressed ethnic minority.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

gibby beat me to the punch wr2 "is 'scalito' offensive to italian-americans" this is such a non-issue -- its source is MATT FUCKING DRUDGE.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:20 (twenty years ago)

Reading Diarmid McCulloch's excellent new book The Reformation has been great for, among other reasons, seeing the origins of stuff like Chick's work there. If you think he trashes the Mass you should read what folks in the 1500s were writing.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

And Ethan, right, Jack Chick, that's what I was saying about the hardcore Christian school. But American Protestant fundamentalists seem to have for the moment put aside their differences -- in public, at least -- to ally with Catholic fundamentalists against the Great Satan of Secularism.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

how the fuck is a jack chick tract 'sub-jack chick'

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

I always liked that "Cookie God" bit from Chick, especially since he seems to have difficulty distinguishing bet/w an "H" and an "eta"...

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:22 (twenty years ago)

The Scalito nickname dates back further than Drudge's existence. Some law journal in the early '90s.

Oh, sorry, a REAL Jack Chick tract. I know he speaks for a majority of Americans.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

didnt martin luther advocate the burning of cathedrals, execution of priests and forced reeducation of papist youths? ann coulter 1520 style!!

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

haha yeah the egyptian shit is really funny

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:23 (twenty years ago)

a brief summary of some of mr. alito's 3d circuit court of appeals decisions, from the think progress website.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:24 (twenty years ago)

milo thats actually true though-
http://www.chick.com/tractimages38973/0900/0900_14.gif

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

chick tracts GET READ!!
http://www.chick.com/tractimages38973/0900/0900_21.gif

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 18:26 (twenty years ago)

all of those chick tract pics are gonna expire in about a day or two, you know.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

The top TX quote is actually from me. Thank god those evangelicals at the Stockyards flea market helped me find Jesus.

Are You Nomar? (miloaukerman), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

"soul winners"(?)

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:28 (twenty years ago)

all of those chick tract pics are gonna expire in about a day or two, you know.

But Sam Alito will suck for years and years.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

ILE: Home Of Potentially Interesting Political Threads That Get Bogged Down By Incredibly Stupid People Ruining It For Everyone Else

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:30 (twenty years ago)

bit on DailyKos taking an optimistic(i guess) tone:

But this is the best possible scenario for Democrats as well. We now have a vehicle upon which to showcase the differences between us and Republicans, between liberalism and conservatism. This is a golden opportunity, and one wisely denied by Bush and Rove with the Robers and Miers nominations.

This is a gift to Democrats. Katrina, massive budget deficits, and continued economic hardship have proven that Republicans can't govern. Iraq, Plame, and Osama Bin Laden have proven that Republicans can't run an effective foreign policy or protect our nation. Now Scalito, along with Bush's social security debacle, will prove to the American people that conservative ideology doesn't have their best interests at heart.

Not that debates ever really happen anymore, but...

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:33 (twenty years ago)

OK, the Scalito thing is kinda cute, but I don't anyone needs to hear it more than once or twice. This is gonna be the new 'Fitzmas' isn't it?

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:35 (twenty years ago)

And anyone who thinks this is a "golden opportunity" is engaging in some kind of delusion. The chance to vote Bush out of office was a "golden opportunity." Everything since then is just damage control.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:36 (twenty years ago)

Ethan, the only saving grace of that Scalia book review you linked (got it from A & L Daily, right?) is that it's more polite than most of his opinions.

As for Alito, I don't know shit about him other than what everybody's talking about today. I will say that I have learned never to trust media/blog/think-tank portrayals of jurists, regardless of political leanings.

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

This is gonna be the new 'Fitzmas' isn't it?

give it a day or two.

also, over at Arthur Silber's (restarted) blog quoting a Salon piece about how the Admin will probably try to push the "reset button" with a successful Nomination and a State of the Union address, just in time for the mid-terms... Hell, they already hold the po-mo ideas about no objective reality, why not?

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:38 (twenty years ago)

DailyKos engaging in delusion????? STOP THE PRESSES

(That's aimed totally at DK, not at gypsy.)

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 18:39 (twenty years ago)

in all of the sound and fury on this thread, we've forgotten to discuss the fact (mentioned briefly upthread) that alito was the sole dissenter in Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 947 F.2d 682 (3d Cir. 1991):

A dissenting opinion in Planned Parenthood v. Casey), arguing that a Pennsylvania that required women seeking abortions to inform their husbands should have been upheld. As Judge Alito reasoned, "[t]he Pennsylvania legislature could have rationally believed that some married women are initially inclined to obtain an abortion without their husbands' knowledge because of perceived problems--such as economic constraints, future plans, or the husbands' previously expressed opposition--that may be obviated by discussion prior to the abortion." Chief Justice Rehnquist's dissent from the Supreme Court's 5-4 [corrected] decision striking down the spousal notification provision of the law quoted Judge Alito's dissent and expressed support for Judge Alito's reasoning.

(the 3d circuit opinion isn't on findlaw, which has cases from that circuit no earlier than 1995 or so)

i think that this is a bit more interesting than all of this hoo-haw about "scalito."

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 19:13 (twenty years ago)

ALITO, Circuit Judge, concurring in part and dissenting in part.

I concur in the court's judgment except insofar as it holds that 18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 3209 (Supp.1991) (spousal notice) is unconstitutional. I also join all of the court's opinion except for the portions concerning Section 3209 and those interpreting Justice O'Connor's opinion in Hodgson v. Minnesota, 497 U.S. 417, 110 S.Ct. 2926, 2949-51, 111 L.Ed.2d 344 (1990), to mean that the two-parent notification requirement without judicial bypass imposed an "undue burden" and was thus required to satisfy strict scrutiny.
*720 I.
As the court suggests, the crux of this case concerns the identification of the constitutional standard that the lower courts must now apply in cases involving laws regulating abortion. For the reasons carefully explained in the court's opinion, I agree that Webster v. Reproductive Health Services, 492 U.S. 490, 109 S.Ct. 3040, 106 L.Ed.2d 410 (1989), and Hodgson changed the law that we are bound to apply and that the test set out in Justice O'Connor's opinions now represents the governing legal standard.
My disagreement with the majority regarding a single provision of the Pennsylvania Abortion Control Act, 18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 3201 et seq. (1983 & Supp.1991), results from disagreement about the portion of Justice O'Connor's two-part test that must be applied to this provision. Under that test, as the majority explains, a law that imposes an "undue burden" must serve a "compelling" state interest. By contrast, a law that does not impose an "undue burden" must simply be "rationally" or "reasonably" related to a "legitimate" state interest. The majority holds that Section 3209 constitutes an undue burden. The majority therefore applies the first prong of the two-part test and strikes down Section 3209 on the ground that it does not serve a "compelling" interest. I do not believe that Section 3209 has been shown to impose an undue burden as that term is used in the relevant Supreme Court opinions; I therefore apply the second prong of the two-part test; and I conclude that Section 3209 is constitutional because it is "rationally related" to a "legitimate" state interest.
Although the majority and I apply different prongs of this two-part test, I see no indication that we disagree concerning the conclusion produced when either prong is applied to Section 3209. If the majority is correct that Section 3209 must satisfy heightened scrutiny, I agree that its constitutionality is doubtful. Similarly, I do not interpret the majority opinion to mean that Section 3209 cannot satisfy the rational relationship test. Indeed, the majority acknowledges that Section 3209 serves a "legitimate" interest. See majority opin. at 715, 716. Thus, my major disagreement with the majority concerns the question whether Section 3209 imposes an "undue burden," and I will therefore turn to that question.
II.
A. Justice O'Connor has explained the meaning of the term "undue burden" in several abortion opinions. In Akron v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), she wrote that "an 'undue burden' has been found for the most part in situations involving absolute obstacles or severe limitations on the abortion decision." She noted that laws held unconstitutional in prior cases involved statutes that "criminalized all abortions except those necessary to save the life of the mother," inhibited " 'the vast majority of abortions after the first 12 weeks,' " or gave the parents of a pregnant minor an absolute veto power over the abortion decision. Id. (emphasis in original; citations omitted). She suggested that an "undue burden" would not be created by "a state regulation [that] may 'inhibit' abortions to some degree." Id. She also suggested that there is no undue burden unless a measure has the effect of "substantially limiting access." Id. at 463, 103 S.Ct. at 2509, quoting Carey v. Population Services International, 431 U.S. 678, 688, 97 S.Ct. 2010, 2017, 52 L.Ed.2d 675 (1977) (emphasis added in Justice O'Connor's opinion).
Justice O'Connor reiterated the same analysis in Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 476 U.S. 747, 106 S.Ct. 2169 (1986). She wrote (id. at 828, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting)):
An undue burden would generally be found "in situations involving absolute obstacles or severe limitations on the abortion decision," not wherever a state regulation "may 'inhibit' abortions to some degree."
*721 She also criticized the majority for taking an approach under which "the mere possibility that some women will be less likely to choose to have an abortion by virtue of the presence of a particular state regulation suffices to invalidate it." Id. 476 U.S. at 829, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (emphasis added).
Justice O'Connor's application of the undue burden test in several cases further illustrates the meaning of this test. In Hodgson, 110 S.Ct. at 2950-51, Justice O'Connor found that no undue burden was imposed by a law requiring notice to both parents or judicial authorization before a minor could obtain an abortion. Justice O'Connor reached this conclusion despite statistics adduced by Justice Marshall to show that mandatory parental notice may inhibit a significant percentage of minors from obtaining abortions (id. at 2953-54) (Marshall, J., dissenting) and despite the district court's finding, noted in Justice Marshall's dissent, that the judicial bypass option "so daunted" some minors that they felt compelled to carry to term (id. at 2959, quoting 648 F.Supp. at 763).
Justice O'Connor has also suggested on more than one occasion that no undue burden was created by the statute upheld in H.L. v. Matheson, 450 U.S. 398, 101 S.Ct. 1164, 67 L.Ed.2d 388 (1981), which required parental notice prior to any abortion on an unemancipated minor. Instead, she has stated that this statute merely inhibited abortions to "some degree." Thornburgh, 476 U.S. at 828, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting); Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). In dissent in Matheson, Justice Marshall argued that the statute would result in substantial interference with abortions sought by minors. He wrote (450 U.S. at 398, 101 S.Ct. at 1164) (Marshall, J., dissenting) that "the minor may confront physical or emotional abuse, withdrawal of financial support or actual obstruction of the abortion decision." These harms are almost identical to those that the majority in this case attributes to Section 3209. See majority opin. at 711-12. See also Planned Parenthood Association v. Ashcroft, 462 U.S. 476, 505, 103 S.Ct. 2517, 2532, 76 L.Ed.2d 733 (1983) (O'Connor concurring and dissenting) (statute requiring parental consent or judicial authorization "imposes no undue burden").
Finally, Justice O'Connor has concluded that regulations that simply increase the cost of abortions, including regulations that may double the cost, do not create an "undue burden." See Akron, 462 U.S. at 434-35, 103 S.Ct. at 2494-95 (maj. op.); at 466-67, 103 S.Ct. at 2511-12 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). Justice O'Connor reached this conclusion even though it seems clear that such increased costs may well deter some women.
Taken together, Justice O'Connor's opinions reveal that an undue burden does not exist unless a law (a) prohibits abortion or gives another person the authority to veto an abortion or (b) has the practical effect of imposing "severe limitations," rather than simply inhibiting abortions " 'to some degree' " or inhibiting "some women." Thornburgh, 476 U.S. at 828, 829, 106 S.Ct. at 2213, 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). Furthermore, Justice O'Connor's opinions disclose that the practical effect of a law will not amount to an undue burden unless the effect is greater than the burden imposed on minors seeking abortions in Hodgson or Matheson or the burden created by the regulations in Akron that appreciably increased costs. Since the laws at issue in those cases had inhibiting effects that almost certainly were substantial enough to dissuade some women from obtaining abortions, it appears clear that an undue burden may not be established simply by showing that a law will have a heavy impact on a few women but that instead a broader inhibiting effect must be shown.
In this case, the plaintiffs, who made a facial attack [FN1] on Section 3209, did not *722 prove that this provision would impose an undue burden. Section 3209 does not create an "absolute obstacle" or give a husband "veto power." Rather, this provision merely requires a married woman desiring an abortion to certify that she has notified her husband or to claim one of the statutory exceptions.

FN1. Because the plaintiffs made a facial attack on Section 3209, they could not rely on a "worst-case analysis" (Ohio v. Akron Center for Reproductive Health, 497 U.S. 502, 110 S.Ct. 2972, 2981, 111 L.Ed.2d 405 (1990)) or on proof showing only that the provision would impose an undue burden "under some conceivable set of circumstances" (United States v.

Salerno, 481 U.S. 739, 745, 107 S.Ct. 2095, 2100, 95 L.Ed.2d 697 (1987)). Thus, proof that the provision would adversely affect an unknown number of women with a particular combination of characteristics could not suffice.

The plaintiffs also failed to carry their burden [FN2] of proving that Section 3209 if enforced would have the kind of broad practical impact needed to establish an "undue burden" under the opinions discussed above. Clearly the plaintiffs did not substantiate the impact of Section 3209 with the degree of analytical rigor that should be demanded before striking down a state statute. Cf. Akron, 462 U.S. at 463, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting) (citation omitted) (courts should exercise " 'deliberate restraint' " before finding an undue burden " 'in view of the respect that properly should be accorded legislative judgments' "); id. at 465, 103 S.Ct. at 2511.

FN2. In Thornburgh, Justice O'Connor made clear that a party challenging the constitutionality of a statute must bear the burden of proving that the law imposes an undue burden. After arguing strenuously that the case should be sent back to the district court for "additional factual development" (476 U.S. at 827, 106 S.Ct. at 2213 (O'Connor, J.,

dissenting), Justice O'Connor repeatedly stated that the appellees, who were challenging the statute, had the burden of proving that individual statutory provisions would impose an undue burden. She discussed whether "appellees could succeed in making the threshold showing of undue burden" (id. at 831, 106 S.Ct. at 2215), whether "appellees [could] establish that the abortion decision [would be] unduly burdened" (id.), and whether the appellees "could succeed in establishing an undue burden" (id. at 832, 106 S.Ct. at 2216).

At the outset, it is apparent that two factors imposed a low ceiling on any showing that the plaintiffs could have made. First, as the district court found, the "vast majority" of married women voluntarily inform their husbands before seeking an abortion. Planned Parenthood v. Casey, 744 F.Supp. 1323, 1360 (E.D.Pa.1990). Indeed, in the trial testimony on which the district court relied, the plaintiffs' witness stated that in her experience 95% of married women notify their husbands. App. at 701. Second, the overwhelming majority of abortions are sought by unmarried women. [FN3] Thus, it is immediately apparent that Section 3209 cannot affect more than about 5% of married women seeking abortions or an even smaller percentage of all women desiring abortions.

FN3. Since 1973, abortions on unmarried women have consistently exceeded 70% of the national total and at times have surpassed 80%. United States Department of Commerce, Statistical Abstract of the United States 1990 at 71.

The plaintiffs failed to show even roughly how many of the women in this small group would actually be adversely affected by Section 3209. As previously noted, Section 3209 contains four significant exceptions. These exceptions apply if a woman certifies that she has not notified her husband because she believes [FN4] that (1) he is not the father of the child, (2) he cannot be found after diligent effort, (3) the pregnancy is the result of a spousal sexual assault that has been reported to the authorities, or (4) she has reason to believe that notification is likely to result in the infliction of bodily injury upon her. If Section 3209 were allowed to take effect, it seems safe to assume that some percentage of the married women seeking abortions without notifying their husbands would qualify for and invoke these exceptions. The record, however, is devoid of evidence showing how many women could or could not invoke an exception.

FN4. The form prepared by the Pennsylvania Department of Health for use in implementing Section 3209 requires a woman to certify that she has not notified her husband "for the following reason(s)...." (744 F.Supp. at 1359). Moreover, a false statement is punishable (as a third degree misdemeanor) only if the woman did not "believe [the statement] to be true" (18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 4904(b) (1983)).

Of the potentially affected women who could not invoke an exception, it seems safe to assume that some percentage, despite an initial inclination not to tell their husbands, would notify their husbands without suffering*723 substantial ill effects. Again, however, the record lacks evidence showing how many women would or would not fall into this category. Thus, the plaintiffs did not even roughly substantiate how many women might be inhibited from obtaining an abortion or otherwise harmed by Section 3209. [FN5] At best, the record shows that Section 3209 would inhibit abortions " 'to some degree' " or that "some women [would] be less likely to choose to have an abortion by virtue of the presence" of Section 3209. Thornburgh, 476 U.S. at 828, 106 S.Ct. at 2214 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Akron, 462 U.S. at 464, 103 S.Ct. at 2510 (O'Connor, J., dissenting). [FN6] And even with respect to these women, the plaintiffs did not show that the impact of Section 3209 would be any greater or any different from the impact of the notice requirement upheld in Matheson. Consequently, the plaintiffs failed to prove that Section 3209 would impose an undue burden.

FN5. In considering whether Section 3209 would impose an undue burden, I do not take into account a fact that seems glaringly apparent, i.e., that Section 3209 would be difficult to enforce and easy to evade. Section 3209 does not require a woman to provide any proof of notification other than her own unnotarized statement. Thus, if a woman claimed that she had orally notified her husband in private (the mode and place of notification to be expected in most cases), it would be exceedingly difficult in most cases for the Commonwealth to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she had not done so.


Proving that a woman violated the law due to a false statement concerning one of the exceptions would also be hard. As noted (see footnote 4, supra ), the Commonwealth would have to prove that the woman did not "believe [the statement] to be true" (18 Pa.Cons.Stat.Ann. § 4904(b) (1983)). Consequently, if a woman certified that she did not notify her husband because he was not the father, the Commonwealth would have to prove that she subjectively believed that the husband was the

father. Or, if a woman certified that she did not notify her husband because she had reason to believe that this would lead to the infliction of bodily injury upon her, the Commonwealth would have to prove that the woman subjectively believed that she would not be harmed. It seems likely, therefore, that Section 3209, if allowed to take effect, would be widely evaded and infrequently enforced and would consequently be less likely to produce either the good or bad effects that the opposing parties claim.

FN6. The plaintiffs' proof may be separated into five categories. First, they offered testimony that a spousal notification requirement would sometimes delay an abortion or necessitate an extra trip to the abortion provider (see 744 F.Supp. at 1360). But as the majority properly concludes in rejecting identical objections to the 24-hour waiting period required by Section 3205(a) (see majority opin. at 706-07), these potential effects do not amount to an undue burden. See Akron, 462 U.S. at 472-74, 103 S.Ct. at 2515-16 (O'Connor, J., dissenting).


Second, the plaintiffs offered testimony that the exceptions in Section 3209 would not cover a case in which a woman did not want to notify her husband for fear that he would retaliate in some way other than the infliction of bodily injury upon her, such as by subjecting her to

psychological abuse or abusing their children (see 744 F.Supp. at 1360- 62). The plaintiffs, however, do not appear to have offered any evidence showing how many (or indeed that any actual women) would be affected by this asserted imperfection in the statute.


Third, the plaintiffs introduced general evidence about the problem of spouse abuse (see 744 F.Supp. at 1361). They offered widely varying statistics concerning the dimensions of the problem, as well as evidence that battering occurs in all socioeconomic groups and is sometimes fatal. This proof, while documenting the existence of a broad national problem, provides no basis for any estimate of what is relevant here--the impact of Section 3209.


Fourth, the plaintiffs offered evidence that "mere notification of pregnancy is frequently a flashpoint for battering" (see 744 F.Supp. at 1361). This proof indicates when violence is likely to occur in an abusive marriage but provides no basis for determining how many women would be adversely affected by Section 3209.


Finally, the plaintiffs offered the opinion of one of their witnesses that most battered women would be psychologically incapable of taking advantage of Section 3209's fourth exception, i.e., the exception for cases in which the woman has reason to fear that notification will lead to the

infliction of bodily harm upon her (see 744 F.Supp. at 1363). However, the plaintiffs failed to show how many of the women potentially affected by Section 3209 (married women seeking abortions without notifying their husbands) are victims of battering. Thus, the opinion offered by their expert, even if taken at face value, merely describes the likely behavior of most of the women in a group of unknown size. Clearly, then, this evidence does not show how many women would be inhibited or otherwise harmed by Section 3209. I cannot believe that a state statute may be held facially unconstitutional simply because one expert testifies that in her opinion the provision would harm a completely unknown number of women.

Needless to say, the plight of any women, no matter how few, who may suffer physical abuse or other harm as a result of *724 this provision is a matter of grave concern. It is apparent that the Pennsylvania legislature considered this problem and attempted to prevent Section 3209 from causing adverse effects by adopting the four exceptions noted above. Whether the legislature's approach represents sound public policy is not a question for us to decide. Our task here is simply to decide whether Section 3209 meets constitutional standards. The first step in this analysis is to determine whether Section 3209 has been shown to create an undue burden under Supreme Court precedent, and for the reasons just explained it seems clear that an undue burden has not been established.
B. This conclusion is not undermined (and may indeed be supported) by the portion of Justice O'Connor's opinion in Hodgson regarding the constitutionality of the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass. The majority in this case interprets Justice O'Connor's opinion to mean that this requirement imposed an undue burden and did not serve a "compelling" interest. Majority opin. at 696. I interpret Justice O'Connor's opinion differently. I do not read her opinion to mean that the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass constituted an undue burden. Rather, I interpret her opinion to mean that this requirement was unconstitutional because it was not reasonably related to a legitimate state interest. Thus, I do not believe that her opinion (or the Court's holding) supports the majority's conclusion in the present case that the spousal notification requirement in Section 3209 imposes an undue burden.
In Hodgson, Justice Stevens wrote the lead opinion discussing the unconstitutionality of the two-parent notification requirement without judicial bypass, and Justice O'Connor joined most of Justice Stevens' opinion (see 110 S.Ct. at 2949 (O'Connor, J., concurring). Thus, in interpreting Justice O'Connor's position, it is helpful to begin with the relevant portions of Justice Stevens' opinion.
Two portions of Justice Stevens' opinion, Parts III and VII, are most important for present purposes. In Part III, Justice Stevens discussed the applicable constitutional standard. Nowhere in this portion of his opinion (or indeed in any portion of his opinion) did Justice Stevens make reference to "strict," "exacting," or "heightened" scrutiny or any of the terminology associated with that level of review. Instead, he concluded that the statute failed to satisfy even the least demanding standard of review. He wrote (110 S.Ct. at 2937): "Under any analysis, the ... statute cannot be sustained if the obstacles it imposes are not reasonably related to legitimate state interests."
In Part VII of his opinion, Justice Stevens explained (id. at 2945) why the two-parent notice requirement did not "reasonably further any legitimate state interest." Thus it seems clear that Justice Stevens' opinion concluded that the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass was unconstitutional because it failed some variant of the rational relationship test.
In my view, Justice O'Connor's opinion in Hodgson did not subject this requirement to a more exacting level of scrutiny. Although Justice O'Connor did not join Part III of Justice Stevens' opinion (in which he discussed the general constitutional standard that he applied), Justice O'Connor wrote as follows (110 S.Ct. at 2949-50 (emphasis added)):
It has been my understanding in this area that "[i]f the particular regulation does not 'unduly burde[n]' the fundamental right, ... then our evaluation of that regulation is limited to our determination that the regulation rationally relates to a legitimate state purpose." .... It is with that understanding that I agree with Justice Stevens' statement "that the statute cannot be sustained if the obstacles it imposes are not reasonably related to legitimate state interests."
I interpret this to mean that Justice O'Connor agreed with Justice Stevens that the challenged statute should be judged under the rational relationship test. I do not think that she would have expressed general agreement with Justice Stevens' statement of the governing legal standard if she believed that the statute imposed an *725 undue burden and was thus required to satisfy an entirely different legal standard. I also do not think that she would have concluded that the statute created an undue burden without explaining the basis for that conclusion. Moreover, Justice O'Connor joined Part VII of Justice Stevens' opinion, in which, as previously noted, Justice Stevens concluded that the two-parent notice requirement without judicial bypass was not "reasonably" related to any "legitimate interest." I do not think that Justice O'Connor would have joined this portion of Justice Stevens' opinion if her position regarding the constitutionality of the provision was based on a fundamentally different analysis. Thus, I conclude that Justice O'Connor found the two-parent notice statute unconstitutional under the rational relationship test. This must mean either (a) that she did not believe that this requirement constituted an undue burden or (b) that she did not find it necessary to reach that question because she believed that the requirement could not even pass the rational relationship test. In either event, her position in no way undermines my conclusion that Section 3209 has not been shown to create an undue burden. [FN7]

FN7. In the portion of her opinion concluding that the two-parent notification requirement with judicial bypass was constitutional, Justice O'Connor wrote (110 S.Ct. at 2950 (emphasis added)): "In a series of cases, this Court has explicitly approved judicial bypass as a means of tailoring a parental consent provision so as to avoid unduly burdening the minor's limited right to obtain an abortion." I interpret this statement to mean that a judicial bypass option prevents a consent requirement (which would otherwise amount to an absolute veto) from creating an undue burden. This statement is therefore fully consistent with my view that Justice O'Connor did not find that an undue burden was created by the two-parent

notice requirement without judicial bypass.

III.
Since Section 3209 has not been proven to impose an undue burden, it must serve a "legitimate" (but not necessarily a "compelling") state interest. The majority acknowledges that this provision serves a "legitimate" interest, namely, the state's interest in furthering the husband's interest in the fetus. See majority opin. at 715, 716. I agree with this conclusion, and I do not think that this point requires extended discussion.
The Supreme Court has held that a man has a fundamental interest in preserving his ability to father a child. Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541, 62 S.Ct. 1110, 1113, 86 L.Ed. 1655 (1942). The Court's opinions also seem to establish that a husband who is willing to participate in raising a child has a fundamental interest in the child's welfare. Michael H. v. Gerald D., 491 U.S. 110, 123, 109 S.Ct. 2333, 2342, 105 L.Ed.2d 91 (1989); Quilloin v. Walcott, 434 U.S. 246, 98 S.Ct. 549, 54 L.Ed.2d 511 (1978); Caban v. Mohammed, 441 U.S. 380, 99 S.Ct. 1760, 60 L.Ed.2d 297 (1969); Stanley v. Illinois, 405 U.S. 645, 92 S.Ct. 1208, 31 L.Ed.2d 551 (1972). It follows that a husband has a "legitimate" interest in the welfare of a fetus he has conceived with his wife.
To be sure, the Supreme Court held in Planned Parenthood of Missouri v. Danforth, 428 U.S. 52, 67-72, 96 S.Ct. 2831, 2840-43, 49 L.Ed.2d 788 (1976), that a potential father may not be given the legal authority to veto an abortion, and thus the Court apparently held that the potential father's interest was not "compelling." But the Court did not question the legitimacy of this interest. On the contrary, the Court wrote (id. at 69, 96 S.Ct. at 2841 (emphasis added)): "We are not unaware of the deep and proper concern and interest that a devoted and protective husband has in his wife's pregnancy and in the growth and development of the fetus she is carrying." See also id. at 93, 96 S.Ct. at 2852 (White, J., dissenting) ("A father's interest in having a child--perhaps his only child--may be unmatched by any other interest in his life"). Since a "deep and proper ... interest" appears indistinguishable from a "legitimate" interest, it seems clear that a husband has a "legitimate" interest in the fate of the fetus.
This interest may be legitimately furthered by state legislation. "[S]tatutory regulation of domestic relations [is] an area *726 that has long been regarded as a virtually exclusive province of the States." Sosna v. Iowa, 419 U.S. 393, 404, 95 S.Ct. 553, 560, 42 L.Ed.2d 532 (1975). See also Moore v. East Cleveland, 431 U.S. 494, 499, 97 S.Ct. 1932, 1935, 52 L.Ed.2d 531 (1977); Scheinberg v. Smith, 659 F.2d 476, 483-94 (5th Cir.1981). Accordingly, Pennsylvania has a legitimate interest in furthering the husband's interest in the fate of the fetus, as the majority in this case acknowledges.
IV.
The remaining question is whether Section 3209 is "rationally" or "reasonably" related to this interest. Under the rational relationship test, which developed in equal protection cases, "legislation carries with it a presumption of rationality that can only be overcome by a clear showing of arbitrariness and irrationality." Hodel v. Indiana, 452 U.S. 314, 331-32, 101 S.Ct. 2376, 2386-87, 69 L.Ed.2d 40 (1981). This test does not permit the invalidation of legislation simply because it is "deemed unwise or unartfully drawn." U.S. Railroad Retirement Board v. Fritz, 449 U.S. 166, 175, 101 S.Ct. 453, 459, 66 L.Ed.2d 368 (1981). Legislation does not violate this test simply because it produces some adverse effects. Id.; Lindsley v. Natural Carbonic Gas Co., 220 U.S. 61, 78, 31 S.Ct. 337, 340, 55 L.Ed. 369 (1911). As the Court wrote in Dandridge v. Williams, 397 U.S. 471, 485-86, 90 S.Ct. 1153, 1161-62, 25 L.Ed.2d 491 (1970):
"The problems of government are practical ones and may justify, if they do not require, rough accommodations--illogical, it may be, and unscientific." Metropolis Theatre Co. v. City of Chicago, 228 U.S. 61, 68- 70 [33 S.Ct. 441, 443, 57 L.Ed. 730 (1913) ]....
... [The rational-basis standard] is true to the principle that the Fourteenth Amendment gives the federal courts no power to impose upon the States their views of what constitutes wise economic or social policy.
See also Dallas v. Stanglin, 490 U.S. 19, 25-27, 109 S.Ct. 1591, 1595-96, 104 L.Ed.2d 18 (1989); Cleburne v. Cleburne Living Center, Inc., 473 U.S. 432, 439-40, 105 S.Ct. 3249, 3253-54, 87 L.Ed.2d 313 (1985). Rather, "those challenging the legislative judgment must convince the Court that the legislative facts on which the classification is apparently based could not reasonably be conceived to be true by the governmental decisionmaker." Vance v. Bradley, 440 U.S. 93, 111, 99 S.Ct. 939, 949, 59 L.Ed.2d 171 (1979). See also Hancock Industries v. Schaeffer, 811 F.2d 225, 238 (3d Cir.1987).
Even assuming that the rational relationship test is more demanding in the present context than in most equal protection cases, that test is satisfied here. The Pennsylvania legislature could have rationally believed that some married women are initially inclined to obtain an abortion without their husbands' knowledge because of perceived problems--such as economic constraints, future plans, or the husbands' previously expressed opposition-- that may be obviated by discussion prior to the abortion. In addition, the legislature could have reasonably concluded that Section 3209 would lead to such discussion and thereby properly further a husband's interests in the fetus in a sufficient percentage of the affected cases to justify enactment of this measure. Although the plaintiffs and supporting amici argue that Section 3209 will do little if any good and will produce appreciable adverse effects, the Pennsylvania legislature presumably decided that the law on balance would be beneficial. We have no authority to overrule that legislative judgment even if we deem it "unwise" or worse. U.S. Railroad Retirement Board v. Fritz, 449 U.S. at 175, 101 S.Ct. at 459. "We should not forget that 'legislatures are ultimate guardians of the liberty and welfare of the people in quite as great a degree as the courts.' " Akron v. Akron Center For Reproductive Health, 462 U.S. at 465, 103 S.Ct. at 2511 (O'Connor, J., dissenting), quoting Missouri, K. & T.R. Co. v. May, 194 U.S. 267, 270, 24 S.Ct. 638, 639, 48 L.Ed. 971 (1904). Clearly, the plaintiffs have not shown that "the legislative facts on which [the statute] is apparently based could not reasonably be conceived to be true by the governmental decisionmaker." *727 Vance v. Bradley, 440 U.S. at 111, 99 S.Ct. at 949. Thus, Section 3209 is rationally related to a legitimate state interest and may not be invalidated under the Supreme Court's abortion precedents. [FN8]

FN8. The plaintiffs argue that the district court's decision may be affirmed on alternative constitutional grounds not adopted by that court, i.e., that Section 3209 violates the rights to marital and informational privacy and equal protection. Because the majority has relied solely on the abortion right in affirming the district court, I do not address these alternative grounds.


C.A.3 (Pa.),1991.
Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania v. Casey
947 F.2d 682

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 19:26 (twenty years ago)

Um, isn't Scalito just a casual nickname that connotes "little Scalia?" How can that be offensive? I mean, in Spanish class I could have sworn the teacher called me Josito or something, as a term of affection.

My unwillingness to read a fraction of that is probably one of several reasons I'm not a lawyer. Is it interesting stuff?

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 31 October 2005 19:47 (twenty years ago)

Finally, the plaintiffs offered the opinion of one of their witnesses that most battered women would be psychologically incapable of taking advantage of Section 3209's fourth exception, i.e., the exception for cases in which the woman has reason to fear that notification will lead to the infliction of bodily harm upon her (see 744 F.Supp. at 1363). However, the plaintiffs failed to show how many of the women potentially affected by Section 3209 (married women seeking abortions without notifying their husbands) are victims of battering. Thus, the opinion offered by their expert, even if taken at face value, merely describes the likely behavior of most of the women in a group of unknown size. Clearly, then, this evidence does not show how many women would be inhibited or otherwise harmed by Section 3209. I cannot believe that a state statute may be held facially unconstitutional simply because one expert testifies that in her opinion the provision would harm a completely unknown number of women.

wtf

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 19:53 (twenty years ago)

'yeah women might get beat the fuck up when we make it compulsary to notify their husbands of private medical decisions, but not enough women for me to care'

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 19:56 (twenty years ago)

Sort of, but it doesn't really answer the primary "Roe or no" question. His argument rests on a pre-Casey discussion of what constitutes an "undue burden" on the right to choose.

I'm going to suggest that Casey/Roe is not in any real danger unless they get one more vote. Kennedy is the swing vote--he switched sides in Carhart over something akin to this very issue. But on the big nut--whether the Constitution contains a right to privacy that encompasses the right to choose--Kennedy's a solid vote. That means that in order to really cut back on the right to choose that Alito will have to vote against the interpretation of "undue burden" that is described in Casey and Carhart. Given this dissent and what appears to be his interpretation of Carhart from that clip of Ethan's above, I think he's unlikely to go too far down that road for fear of looking like an idiot.

That's probably overoptimistic, though.


(xpost)

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 19:58 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, you gotta wonder with some of these guys if they've ever heard of the term, "spousal rape."

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 19:59 (twenty years ago)

they need to watch "marnie"

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:00 (twenty years ago)

why should 'spousal rape' matter to them?

maura (maura), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:04 (twenty years ago)

i mean not for nothing but a key thread of most right-leaning white male ideology these days seems to be 'yeah, whatever, this brand of oppression doesn't affect me, so i'm not bothered'

maura (maura), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:07 (twenty years ago)

i dont think thats entirely true

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:12 (twenty years ago)

Ethan, ISTR that very argument was adopted by the Casey dissenters--Scalia, Renqhuist, White & Thomas. I'm looking throught the opinion right now for the quote.


(xpost)

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

"these days"? (It might not have been articulated the same way a hundred years [or two], but the same principle surely applies.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:13 (twenty years ago)

that's why i referred to it as 'a thread' ethan

xpost ned, it seems to be more true now than ever, although that may be my personal disaffection talking

maura (maura), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:14 (twenty years ago)

'than ever' = 'than ever before in my lifetime'

maura (maura), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:15 (twenty years ago)

werent you born in the glorious decade of tolerance that was the 1970s

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:16 (twenty years ago)

x-post -- I'd agree in that there's clearly a historical myopia that exists like this: all bad problems were identified and solved thirty, forty years back, except those evil liberals/feminists/minorities/etc. got everything wrong and made things much worse. (This line of thought begs many questions.)

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:17 (twenty years ago)

and reagan and welfare queens and willie horton and rodney king etc etc etc etc, i think casting the 90s as an age of tolerance may be a collective fiction (one which im guilty as perpetuating as much as anyone)

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:18 (twenty years ago)

do you think this intolerance of non-white non-males is manifesting culturally, stronger now than before?

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:21 (twenty years ago)

something else about alito to be cosindered -- that may fly beneath the radar for non-con. law freaks -- are his views on the Commerce Clause. (you have to scroll down about 3/4ths of the page, alito wrote the dissent).

short primer -- the Commerce Clause is the constitutional hook upon which much Congressional legislation has hinged, and which the Rehnquist Court (in the Lopez case) has scaled back.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:22 (twenty years ago)

Can we bring back Jim Crow laws, only target them at everyone instead of just black people?

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:25 (twenty years ago)

start with ilx

strongo hulkington's ghost (dubplatestyle), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

Found it:

The question before us is therefore whether the spousal notification requirement rationally furthers any legitimate state interests. We conclude that it does. First, a husband's interests in procreation within marriage and in the potential life of his unborn child are certainly substantial ones. See Planned Parenthood of Central Mo. v. Danforth, 428 U.S., at 69 ("We are not unaware of the deep and proper concern and interest that a devoted and protective husband has in his wife's pregnancy and in the growth and development of the fetus she is carrying"); id., at 93 (WHITE, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part); Skinner v. Oklahoma ex rel. Williamson, 316 U.S., at 541 . The State itself has legitimate interests both in protecting these interests of the father and in protecting the potential life of the fetus, and the spousal notification requirement is reasonably related to advancing those state interests. By providing that a husband will usually know of his spouse's intent to have an abortion, the provision makes it more likely that the husband will participate in deciding the fate of his unborn child, a possibility that might otherwise have been denied him. This participation might in some cases result in a decision to proceed with the pregnancy. As Judge Alito observed in his dissent below, [t]he Pennsylvania legislature could have rationally believed that some married women are initially inclined to obtain an abortion without their husbands' knowledge because of perceived problems - such as economic constraints, future plans, or the husbands' previously expressed [505 U.S. 833, 975] opposition - that may be obviated by discussion prior to the abortion. 947 F.2d, at 726 (opinion concurring in part and dissenting in part).

The State also has a legitimate interest in promoting "the integrity of the marital relationship." 18 Pa.Cons.Stat. 3209(a) (1990). This Court has previously recognized "the importance of the marital relationship in our society." Planned Parenthood of Central Mo. v. Danforth, supra, at 69. In our view, the spousal notice requirement is a rational attempt by the State to improve truthful communication between spouses and encourage collaborative decisionmaking, and thereby fosters marital integrity. See Labine v. Vincent, 401 U.S. 532, 538 (1971) ("[T]he power to make rules to establish, protect, and strengthen family life" is committed to the state legislatures). Petitioners argue that the notification requirement does not further any such interest; they assert that the majority of wives already notify their husbands of their abortion decisions, and the remainder have excellent reasons for keeping their decisions a secret. In the first case, they argue, the law is unnecessary, and in the second case it will only serve to foster marital discord and threats of harm. Thus, petitioners see the law as a totally irrational means of furthering whatever legitimate interest the State might have. But, in our view, it is unrealistic to assume that every husband-wife relationship is either (1) so perfect that this type of truthful and important communication will take place as a matter of course, or (2) so imperfect that, upon notice, the husband will react selfishly, violently, or contrary to the best interests of his wife. See Planned Parenthood of Central Mo. v. Danforth, supra, at 103-104 (STEVENS, J., concurring in part and dissenting in part) (making a similar point in the context of a parental consent statute). The spousal notice provision will admittedly be unnecessary in some circumstances, and possibly harmful in others, but the existence of particular cases in which a feature of a statute performs no function (or is even counterproductive) [505 U.S. 833, 976] ordinarily does not render the statute unconstitutional or even constitutionally suspect. Thornburgh v. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, 476 U.S., at 800 (WHITE, J., dissenting). The Pennsylvania Legislature was in a position to weigh the likely benefits of the provision against its likely adverse effects, and presumably concluded, on balance, that the provision would be beneficial. Whether this was a wise decision or not, we cannot say that it was irrational. We therefore conclude that the spousal notice provision comports with the Constitution. See Harris v. McRae, 448 U.S., at 325 -326 ("It is not the mission of this Court or any other to decide whether the balance of competing interests . . . is wise social policy").

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:27 (twenty years ago)

ethan, the past 30 years certainly haven't been 100% hunky dory, but the inevitability of the power structure being the "same way" (ie let's all dance the white guy shuffle) for the duration of, say, my life just is, in my opinion (and i'm pretty much a total outsider, i admit) a lot meaner, more gloating, and absolutely much more institutionally entrenched. that's likely due to the fact that the backlash to any progress that has been made in, say, the past 25 years has been a lot fiercer and more far-reaching than that progress -- so in that respect, yes, things are worse.

maura (maura), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

http://revhq.com/images/covers/144/revbtn14.gif

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:30 (twenty years ago)

The State also has a legitimate interest in promoting "the integrity of the marital relationship."

Beat all ya like! Just as long as you stay married!

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:32 (twenty years ago)

the Commerce Clause is the constitutional hook upon which much Congressional legislation has hinged

that's an understatement.

don weiner (don weiner), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:33 (twenty years ago)

yeah i remember reading in some non-law mag (harpers?) a really thorough breakdown of the implications of the commerce clause being reinterpreted, to be honest i didnt get too far thru that but if he was dissenting with breyer and souter im cool with that

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:34 (twenty years ago)

didnt get too far that machine gun ruling i meanzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:35 (twenty years ago)

Just amazing to me that not only is Bush a bad president, but he only seems to make decisions with close to permanent repurcussions: Supreme Court, wars, etc. His tenure will haunt me, my children and this country for decades.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:36 (twenty years ago)

wah wahhh

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:37 (twenty years ago)

starring karl rove as nelson muntz

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 31 October 2005 20:56 (twenty years ago)

May 18 1993, PHILADELPHIA (UPI) -- A federal appeals court ruled Tuesday that a
full court hearing should be held to decide if the Defense Department
and the Base Closure Commission followed the law in deciding to close
the Philadelphia Naval Shipyard.
The 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals, in a 2-1 decision, reinstated
its earlier decision that a lower court should consider the argument
that ``the closing of the Shipyard would be illegal because it would be
the product of a process inconsistent with certain procedural mandates''
of the base closing act.
That decision had been struck down by the Supreme Court and the
appeals court was told to reconsider it in light of another case which
touched on whether actions of the president can be reviewed.
Appeals court Judge Walter K. Stapleton said the decision involving
the president's determination of House representation for Masschusetts
based on the census did not affect their conclusions.
Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., who filed the appeal, said the decision
``is a big victory for the 7,000 men and women who work at the Navy
Yard.''
Stapleton said the court's opinion touched on the narrow issue of
whether actions by the president which are based on faulty procedures
can be reviewed by the court.
``The president, no less than his lieutenants, must have statuatory
or constitutional authority for his actions,'' Stapleton wrote, and the
authority to close bases was specifically outlined in the Base Closure
and Relalignment Act.
The court said it was not deciding whether the decision by the
president was the correct one.
In dissent, Judge Samuel Alito Jr. said the base closing act does not
require the president to find out if there were any procedural
violations and to reject the base closing decisions ``if the
recommendations regarding one or more bases are tainted by procedural
violations.''

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 20:58 (twenty years ago)

I'd like to know on what basis our resident constitutional scholar places his considered opinion that Scalito, who is quite possibly or even probably to the right of Scalia, will be better than Rehnquist, who voted most often with Kennedy and then O'Connor, or even Roberts, who many think will end up voting somewhere in the Rehnquist range between Scalia and Kennedy.

the idea that opposition to Alito on the basis of ethnicity is racist is a shell game designed (in typical Rovian weakness-into-strength fashion) to go on the offensive before beign attacked for replacing the second woman on the court with the second Italian-American man.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:00 (twenty years ago)

or this ...

but if he was dissenting with breyer and souter im cool with that

what do you have against breyer and souter, ethan?

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:02 (twenty years ago)

no i think hes terrible i just wanted a silver lining

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 21:03 (twenty years ago)

xpost i misread it

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 21:09 (twenty years ago)

He's Catholic and I dont want to start spreading rumors or anything but I heard they wants to make the Pope rule America just a thought comments anyone?

Cunga (Cunga), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:15 (twenty years ago)

You're thinking of John Kerry!

Allyzay knows a little German (allyzay), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:16 (twenty years ago)

Eisbar, is Rybar Alito's most thorough commerce clause opinion? Because I must say that in light of the what the SCOTUS subsequently did did in Morrison, it seems almost . . . quaint.

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:17 (twenty years ago)

J: i dunno -- i saw it discussed and linked on another blog, which is why i posted it.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:18 (twenty years ago)

This quote in particular:

"In addition, as I explain below, 18 U.S.C. section 922(o) might be sustainable in its current form if Congress made
findings that the purely intrastate possession of machine guns
has a substantial effect on interstate commerce or if Congress or
the Executive assembled empirical evidence documenting such a
link. If, as the government and the majority baldly insist, the
purely intrastate possession of machine guns has such an effect,
these steps are not too much to demand to protect our system of
constitutional federalism."

(xpost)

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

in other catholic news http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4391788.stm

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 21:19 (twenty years ago)

I mean, there's all that shit in Morrison about how the Constitution doesn't care about congressional findings, you know?

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:20 (twenty years ago)

Why do there seem to be so few female examples of this Alito/Will variety of dispassionate, highly abstract conservatism? I can only think of, hmm...four or five, I guess. (Two of 'em are dead.)

M. V. (M.V.), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:24 (twenty years ago)

the idea that opposition to Alito on the basis of ethnicity is racist is a shell game designed (in typical Rovian weakness-into-strength fashion) to go on the offensive before beign attacked for replacing the second woman on the court with the second Italian-American man.

which of course is the similar shell game designed (in typical faux-moral pontificating by minority leadership) that somehow O'Connor's replacement should be similar to her, either by gender or political standards.

don weiner (don weiner), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:33 (twenty years ago)

http://www.isthatlegal.org/archives/2005/10/sam_alito_as_i.html

I'll share my one amusing Sam Alito story. When he left the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Third Circuit, those of us in the Appeals Division decided to give him a going-away present. You know those office ink-pad stamps that say "CANCELLED" or "DRAFT" or "RECEIVED" or whatever? We had one made that said "AFFIRMED," to make Sam's job in criminal appeals that much easier. A little prosecutor's in-joke, you know?

A few months later, an unmarked envelope arrived for us in the Appeals Division. Inside was a slip opinion of the first criminal appeal Judge Alito had heard, with the word "AFFIRMED" stamped about 20 times all over the front page.

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 21:36 (twenty years ago)

What a lovable rascal.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:38 (twenty years ago)

That is sort of funny, in a tremendously lawgeeky way.

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:43 (twenty years ago)

More in a Judge Dread way, really.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:45 (twenty years ago)

the backlash to any progress that has been made in, say, the past 25 years has been a lot fiercer and more far-reaching than that progress -- so in that respect, yes, things are worse.

WRONG. (with examples)

Now: Gay marriage is happening, but it freaks some people out
Then: Gay what? hahahaha

Now: Women are underrepresented among the CEO ranks
1980: Why the hell is this coffee pot empty?

Now: We need to root out race bias wherever it rears its ugly head, and always be vigilant against subtle, ingrained institutional, cultural, and attitudinal biases.
1980: We need to hire a black guy.

Intolerance and discrimination obstruct the smooth, predictable, and maximally profitable quarterly operation of multinational corporations.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:47 (twenty years ago)

Now: We need to root out race bias wherever it rears its ugly head, and always be vigilant against subtle, ingrained institutional, cultural, and attitudinal biases.
1980: We need to hire a black guy.

If you think people aren't still saying "We need to hire a black guy," you are massively deluded.

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:49 (twenty years ago)

we need to hire a white girl who pees herself

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 21:50 (twenty years ago)

is "we need to hire a black guy" supposed to be a bad thing to think?

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 31 October 2005 21:53 (twenty years ago)

i think its insufficient compared to the alternative he listed right next to it

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 21:58 (twenty years ago)

I don't think it's exactly optimal!

xpost hah trife otm

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:00 (twenty years ago)

And Dan otm as well, even in places that you might not think!

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:01 (twenty years ago)

those hard-to-reach areas

_, Monday, 31 October 2005 22:03 (twenty years ago)

Intolerance and discrimination obstruct the smooth, predictable, and maximally profitable quarterly operation of multinational corporations.

By the way, I know this is something that hip econ and business majors tell themselves to justify their libertarianism, but it has always been and remains a load of utter crap. There are multinational corporations, hell entire areas of commerce, that depend upon keeping nonwhite populations subjugated.

J (Jay), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:04 (twenty years ago)

o my dismay, giddy Christian activists are in Seventh Heaven over the nomination of Judge Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. Troy Newman of the pro-life Operation Rescue exults, "We are trusting that we are now on the fast-track to derailing Roe v. Wade as the law of the land." Roberta Combs, president of the Christian Coalition, declares, "President Bush has hit a homerun with this nomination." Don Swarthout, president of Christians Reviving America's Values, adds, "We need someone on the US Supreme Court who stands for the true principles of America and applies them with common sense. In fact, I think most of America would agree that it is time for our nation to stop our tolerance for diversity programs that are detrimental to our nation."

From Reason's hit and run

anthony, Monday, 31 October 2005 22:19 (twenty years ago)

Too bad he's not a drunken Marin county wino or we could call him Saucealito.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

The quote above kinda confirms my point - asshats only start saying shit like this after the horse has left the barn.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

If you think people aren't still saying "We need to hire a black guy," you are massively deluded.

I had in mind James Watt's classic "a black, a woman, two Jews and a cripple" zinger (1983). I would indeed be loco if I wanted to argue that workplace discrimination had become a non-issue, but I'm only interested in mixing it up over this if you honestly think things have gotten worse since the early 80s.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:22 (twenty years ago)

The quote above

damn simultaneous posts!

walter obv. not the asshat in question

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:24 (twenty years ago)

yes, 3 and J, however, the latter of those options is the kind of asymptotic vanishing point of perfection that we can all strive to reach some day; "we need to hire a black guy" has the advantage of being understood at a conference table and acted on

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:30 (twenty years ago)

I know this is something that hip econ and business majors tell themselves to justify their libertarianism, but it has always been and remains a load of utter crap. There are multinational corporations, hell entire areas of commerce, that depend upon keeping nonwhite populations subjugated.

J, I didn't say anything about not preying on the powerless.

But it's a crime of opportunity, not bias. Multinationals are just as happy to fux0r white populations (Eastern Europe, Russia, Love Canal), but they're also best served if it's a diverse, meritocratic group of corporate managers doing the fux0ring.

Per Marx/Engels, the ruling ideology will always be the one that best serves the ruling class. In this case, the ruling class is best served if it's a diverse, meritocratic group doing the fux0ring. The presence of collateral social good should not be taken as an index of the corporation's social mission. It has none beyond returning value to shareholders.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

I would indeed be loco if I wanted to argue that workplace discrimination had become a non-issue, but I'm only interested in mixing it up over this if you honestly think things have gotten worse since the early 80s.

I wasn't in the workplace in the early 80s so I don't know. I do know that I can count the number of black people I have worked directly with during the ten years of my professional career on one hand.

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 22:39 (twenty years ago)

Much of Senators on Ed Schultz show today(incl. Harkin & Durbin) made sure to follow up the point make by Reid that Miers was Dubya caving to the batshit fundie rightwingers, and that Scalito's nom is more caving. I wish they'd emphasize the weakness bit.

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:32 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, play up the "Bush has lost control of the Republican Party and the Mullahs are in charge" angle.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:42 (twenty years ago)

If Roe v. Wade were ever overturned (and I don't think it will be) what will then unite the right wingers? Guns? That seems a weak, less polarizing substitute.

Josh in Chicago (Josh in Chicago), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:44 (twenty years ago)

Are there people who actually think Bush was ever in control of the Republican Party??????

Dan (Excruciating Back Pain) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:44 (twenty years ago)

what will then unite the right wingers?

well, there's still dudes kissin'. that worked last time.

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:49 (twenty years ago)

Are there people who actually think Bush was ever in control of the Republican Party??????

one would think so, and he is ostensibly at the head of it. Or at least, that's how the narrative goes...

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:51 (twenty years ago)

Are there people who actually think Bush was ever in control of the Republican Party??????

http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/KR_12.8.jpg


http://www.thousandrobots.com/blog/files/palpatine_02.jpg

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 31 October 2005 23:59 (twenty years ago)

In this case, the ruling class is best served if it's a diverse, meritocratic group doing the fux0ring.

I do not believe that there is any evidence to back up this statement.

J (Jay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:45 (twenty years ago)

Domestic partner benefits.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:45 (twenty years ago)

which of course is the similar shell game designed (in typical faux-moral pontificating by minority leadership) that somehow O'Connor's replacement should be similar to her, either by gender or political standards

no, it's expressive of principles, the leading one of which is probably that the composition of the court by identity factors should be at least vaguely reflective of that of the society (in which woman are the majority), or at least of that of the subclass of lawyers (of which women make up nearly 1/3)

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:49 (twenty years ago)

Times like these that I'm soooo glad that Kerry voted for the war and came out against gay marriage.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:50 (twenty years ago)

After all, it worked out so well for everyone.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:51 (twenty years ago)

I do not believe that there is any evidence to back up this statement.

http://www.fortune.com/fortune/blackpower/0,15274,,00.html

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 00:54 (twenty years ago)

the ruling class is best served if it's a diverse, meritocratic group doing the fux0ring.

J (Jay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:00 (twenty years ago)

J, I can't tell what technicality of phrasing you're trying to skewer me on there. Are you suggesting that

- the Boards of Directors reponsible for CEO hires don't represent the ruling class?
- the executives listed on that list are any less ruthless than they are dynamic and polished?

If so, you win by forfeit.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:09 (twenty years ago)

Seeing that the White House has had an extremely well-qualified candidate in Scalito on their short list, the nomination of Harriet Meyers seems even more bizarre. Of course, it is a possibility that the Meiers nomination was all just Rovian gambit, intended to focus the public attention and subsequent the confirmation hearings on "qualifications" rather than judicial philosophy.

elmo (allocryptic), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:14 (twenty years ago)

If Senators are that easily outfoxed, we deserve what we get. Rove is a mean bastard, inspired tactician, and utterly cynical strategist, but not a demigod. The "I meant to do that" act only works if you let it, and no one's even trotted it out yet.

The point about Miers was she had neither the resume nor the demonstrated chops to justify going forward with the philosophy question.

rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:21 (twenty years ago)

Of course, it is a possibility that the Meiers nomination was all just Rovian gambit

Good ol' Karl has had other things on his mind of late. I would be very surprised to learn that Miers was his choice.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:24 (twenty years ago)

no, it's expressive of principles, the leading one of which is probably that the composition of the court by identity factors should be at least vaguely reflective of that of the society (in which woman are the majority), or at least of that of the subclass of lawyers (of which women make up nearly 1/3)

The NBA needs this too. The owners are all about winning and making money and about getting the "best" players but if they got stop the greed for winning I know I'd go to more games if there were more players who look like I do (white). I think the NBA would get a cleaner image and would be more fan friendly if it wasn't all filled with tall black men who can run fast. Anybody with me here? Could definitely benefit for looking more like America imo. Remember when Jewish players were the stars? Jewish people making millions of dollars "looks more like America" to me LOL right guyz?

Cunga (Cunga), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:36 (twenty years ago)

That would be a slightly less idiotic argument if anybody on the court had a decent fadeaway jumper.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:52 (twenty years ago)

What the hell are you talking about? Who are you?

xpost

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 01:54 (twenty years ago)

no, it's expressive of principles, the leading one of which is probably that the composition of the court by identity factors should be at least vaguely reflective of that of the society (in which woman are the majority), or at least of that of the subclass of lawyers (of which women make up nearly 1/3)

"identity factors" is so nebulous it makes me think you are joking, gabb.

Although it does kind of warm my tummy knowing that having a uterus and passing the bar is a "leading principle" in some circles.

don weiner (don weiner), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 03:39 (twenty years ago)

This thread sure is a lot harder to read than the Harriet Miers one.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 04:47 (twenty years ago)

Listening to folks on the radio and elsewhere, it seems that this guy really will bring the abortion fight that folks had either feared or openly spoiled for. It's like each side is openly challenging the other, like, hey, you guys want a fight on this shit? You really buy into the "america has moved to the right" myth that got touted after the last election? Well, let's go, then.

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

The NBA needs this too. The owners are all about winning and making money and about getting the "best" players but if they got stop the greed for winning I know I'd go to more games if there were more players who look like I do (white). I think the NBA would get a cleaner image and would be more fan friendly if it wasn't all filled with tall black men who can run fast. Anybody with me here? Could definitely benefit for looking more like America imo. Remember when Jewish players were the stars? Jewish people making millions of dollars "looks more like America" to me LOL right guyz?

Brigham Young University has a basketball team. They're terrible.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:08 (twenty years ago)

race and gender are vague aspects of identity?

Although it does kind of warm my tummy knowing that having a uterus and passing the bar is a "leading principle" in some circles

it's even good for reduced partnership prospects!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

or should we retell the Sandy O'Connor Story?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:09 (twenty years ago)

it's even good for reduced partnership prospects!

Much like this thread.

rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

xpost to roger

Well, your first quote was this: "Intolerance and discrimination obstruct the smooth, predictable, and maximally profitable quarterly operation of multinational corporations."

I think that's a crock of shit, for the reason that by your own logic, corporations follow culture, and in no culture no where are intolerance and discrimination nonissues. Hence in the U.S. things like "we've got to hire a black guy," class action sexual discrimination lawsuits and so-called "reverse-discrimination" lawsuits are still pervasive. By your argument, they shouldn't be.

Your second quote was that "the ruling class is best served if it's a diverse, meritocratic group doing the fux0ring." Once again, I think the evidence to back this up is lacking. The fact that you can point to the existence of black CEO's and domestic partner benefits doesn't cut it. All we can say is that the interests of the ruling class are currently being served by those things; we can't say that they are the best way to serve them, or even that they're being served particularly well.

J (Jay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

Seeing that the White House has had an extremely well-qualified candidate in Scalito on their short list, the nomination of Harriet Meyers seems even more bizarre. Of course, it is a possibility that the Meiers nomination was all just Rovian gambit, intended to focus the public attention and subsequent the confirmation hearings on "qualifications" rather than judicial philosophy.

I don't buy that the Meiers nomination was any sort of Rovian gambit or underhanded political chess move. Putting any nomination out there and having them forced to withdraw is a slap in the face and loss of political capital for Bush. It will only make it easier for opponents to challenge Bush on future issues and make the base more restive and Bush's allies more nervous.

I think the only possible explanation for the Meier's nomination is that it shows the extent to which cronyism dominates Bush's political decision-making. As the scion of a successful political dynasty, Bush is well aware of the value of having friends in high places. You never know when having a hand-picked lieutenant who owes you big-time on the Supreme Court may come in handy to the Bush family and its allies. As someone who owes his first term to a Supreme Court ruling, Bush is surely well aware of this. Alito may be well-qualified, but he is not a personal friend of Bush.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:21 (twenty years ago)

Well, the other thing Miers showed was that Bush, all things considered, did not really want this fight right now. Which is why the "base" reacted so vigorously. They not only want the fight, they're itching for it, they've been training for it and hoping for it and having wet dreams about it for years. And then at the last minute Bush opted for patty-cake. So now it's like, OK OK, we'll have the fight, sheesh. But I think the White House is not completely thrilled about it.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:25 (twenty years ago)

Cunga with the white man's privilege response to diversity arguments=ugh....Centuries of picking white Christian male Ivy Leaguers for the Supreme Court is not the same as picking the 'best' players for a basketball team inmho.

curmudgeon, Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

I think they would have gotten that fight with Meiers too, had the nomination gotten that far. She had enough of a pro-life paper trail to bring it on.

xpost

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:29 (twenty years ago)

I think the only possible explanation for the Meier's nomination is that it shows the extent to which cronyism dominates Bush's political decision-making

I think the only possible explanation for the Miers nomination was so they could withdraw it later and nominate someone else and further distract the media from talking about Plamegate. Oh, and also insulate themselves from attacks based upon gender bias.

J (Jay), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:45 (twenty years ago)

I don't think they're really all that concerned about attacks based on gender bias. And as far as distracting the media from Plamegate, there hasn't been much to distract from so far, and if that was their motive, they messed up the timing, since the biggest development so far (the indictment of Libby) came on an off-day for the Meiers saga.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:55 (twenty years ago)

And besides, wouldn't just nominating Alito from the start have been a better distraction from Plamegate? And one with a better chance of having a happy ending for Bush? I don't buy this whole idea that Bush's are incapable of making a simple miscalculation.

o. nate (onate), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 18:57 (twenty years ago)

I don't buy the idea that this White House is capable of making much besides miscalculations.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

since the biggest development so far (the indictment of Libby) came on an off-day for the Meiers saga.

Not exactly. The timing did work out quite nicely for the administration. Friday is the day you typically send out your bad news because nobody is paying attention and they forget about it over the weekend while Monday is when you want to announce good news so that it dominates the discussion during the week. In that sense the Libby indictment -> Alito nomination was timed perfectly.

Not that I think the Miers nomination was devised specifically for that outcome but they obviously made the most of the situation.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:10 (twenty years ago)

Gypsy OTM.

Nobody in DC purposely wastes political capital the way Bush did with Miers.

don weiner (don weiner), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 19:11 (twenty years ago)

Did someone erase my post from yesterday w/r/t "ALITO's CABANA!"?

Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 12:55 (twenty years ago)

Friday is the day you typically send out your bad news because nobody is paying attention and they forget about it over the weekend while Monday is when you want to announce good news so that it dominates the discussion during the week. In that sense the Libby indictment -> Alito nomination was timed perfectly

Yeah, but Bush's people didn't have anything to do with the timing of the Libby indictment announcement - that was the special prosecutor's doing.

o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 16:38 (twenty years ago)

Right, but they could pretty much guess what the timing would be, knowing the date that the grand jury ended. I'm simply saying that they took advantage of that by nominating Alito on Monday.

walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 17:41 (twenty years ago)

They weren't taking advantage, they were desperately making up for lost time. And then Reid made Frist look like a chump.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

two weeks pass...
http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/nm/20051116/2005_11_16t130424_450x356_us_usa_court_alito.jpg

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 18:47 (twenty years ago)

fun with anagrams

"I am a sellout" vs "A litmus aloe"

kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 19:00 (twenty years ago)

Is it really that fun?

KSTFUNS (Ex Leon), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 19:01 (twenty years ago)

No, not really. Kinda pointless, actually. As the link I just gave pointed out.

But thanks for clarifying that, just so we're all on the same page. It's good you did that.

kingfish hobo juckie (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 19:17 (twenty years ago)

one month passes...
The nomination hearings begin on January 7th.

How much emphasis will(should?) be placed on the guy's support for letting the Executive Branch run wild, as the linked-to author recommends, as opposed the usual stuff(e.g. abortion)? Will it help that the same committee who'll be grilling the guy will also be holding NSA/Pentagon/wiretap hearings?

kingfish holiday travesty (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 29 December 2005 16:58 (twenty years ago)

Oh I think Specter'll make sure the executive-authority stuff gets a full airing. But it won't amount to much more than a shot across the bow. The only question is whether the Dems are going to filibuster this guy. Hard to tell so far. At the moment I'd guess no, but things could look different a month from now once everybody gets back into battle mode.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 29 December 2005 17:10 (twenty years ago)

the Dems are pussies - there'll be some "tough questioning" and then he'll be approved along party lines. Any cases going to the SC re: Dubya's abusive invocation of "executive priveleges" will subsequently be thrown out.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 29 December 2005 17:13 (twenty years ago)

Nobody in DC purposely wastes political capital the way Bush did with Miers.

I dunno, if you know there's going to be a fight, you might as well put up someone you know is going to lose, let the media/public tire of the issue, and then try to rush your favorite guy in behind them. Some speculated Bush would pick someone really unpleasant first, lose, and then pick someone just as right-wing but more warm and fuzzy-seeming, hoping that pressure would build on Democrats to just confirm someone already. Miers had the same advantages - she wasn't going anywhere, but could drag the issue out - without the disadvantage - she wasn't unpleasant enough to allow the Dems to try to paint the next guy with the same brush.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 29 December 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

Three rightwing ministers claim to have snuck past Capitol police and anointed the chair in the hearing room that Alito will sit in.

from the WSJ.

...The three ministers insisted they weren't taking sides in the Alito debate. "This is not a pro-Alito prayer," insisted the Rev. Patrick Mahoney, director of the Christian Defense Coalition. With abortion, public prayer, gay marriage and right-to-life issues among those topping public debate, however, "God...is interested in what goes on" in the nomination hearing, Rev. Schenck said.

The two men, along with Grace Nwachukwu, general manager of a group called Faith and Action, read three Psalms outside the committee room, knelt to say the Lord's Prayer and marked a cross in oil on the committee door before leaving.

Rev. Schenck said he and Rev. Mahoney had blessed the same room before hearings for Chief Justice John Roberts last year. That hearing "went very well," Rev. Schenck said...

kingfish pibb Xtra (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 9 January 2006 04:02 (twenty years ago)

What happens if you fart while sitting there?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 9 January 2006 04:14 (twenty years ago)

Tom Coburn breaks into tears again

kingfish pibb Xtra (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 9 January 2006 04:22 (twenty years ago)

the world gets scarier every day.

s1ocki (slutsky), Monday, 9 January 2006 04:33 (twenty years ago)

well, at least he's being open about their history:

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Christian conservative leader Rev. Jerry Falwell said on Sunday that confirming Federal Appeals Court judge Samuel Alito to the U.S. Supreme Court would be the biggest victory for his constituency in three decades.

"What we've worked on for 30 years, to mobilize people of faith and value in this country, what we've done through these years is coming to culmination right now," Falwell said at a rally on the eve of Alito's confirmation hearing.

"Now we're looking at what we really started on 30 years ago, reconstruction of a court system gone awry," Falwell said at a rally at a Baptist church in Philadelphia and broadcast on Christian radio and television.

"There could be a reconstruction of the U.S. Supreme Court in our immediate lifetime," said Falwell...

kingfish pibb Xtra (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 9 January 2006 15:41 (twenty years ago)

When your opening remarks involve prostitution & sodomy, you know we're all in for a good time. Ladies & Gentlemintz, Sen. Tom Coburn.

kingfish pibb Xtra (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 10 January 2006 00:45 (twenty years ago)

Has anybody been paying attention to the hearings?

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:03 (twenty years ago)

sort of, half-assedly. alito sucks.

hstencil (hstencil), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:04 (twenty years ago)

I like it when the senators trot out the "y'know, the word 'abortion,
' appears NOWHERE in the Constitution..." bit.

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:05 (twenty years ago)

Coburn is one fucked up dude. You can always count on him to come up with something totally lunatic. It's like he and Santorum are in serious competition.

TRG (TRG), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:10 (twenty years ago)

I listened to Schumer question Slippery Sam for as long as I could (10 mins) yesterday and saw a little more on tape. Isn't everyone mispronouncing stah-RAY duh-SEE-sus?

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:45 (twenty years ago)

starry discus

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:48 (twenty years ago)

Yesterday I passed three modestly dressed young blond women coming back from Supreme Court demonstrations with identical "Confirm Alito" signs mounted on their baby strollers. So we know the Utah position on all this, I guess.

Stephen X (Stephen X), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:49 (twenty years ago)

Isn't everyone mispronouncing stah-RAY duh-SEE-sus?

if they are, then so is the entire legal community

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:49 (twenty years ago)

Well, I was had by my Constitutional Law prof then!

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:50 (twenty years ago)

i've been trying to figure out the polls that show 49% for confirmation of Alito, 30-something against (as if that many people even know who he is?). and i think i did - his name sounds hispanic. i'll bet that was a factor in the selection.

or maybe people are thinking of this guy...

http://www.ukar.org/temp/ito01.jpg

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:53 (twenty years ago)

Dems must be completely united and FILIBUSTER TEH DUDE. No choice.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 19:58 (twenty years ago)

From Salon.com

Alito falters on CAP, and Specter and Kennedy explode

Ted Kennedy and Arlen Specter just came to blows, at least of the verbal kind, over Kennedy's attempt to obtain more information about Samuel Alito's involvement in the conservative group Concerned Alumni of Princeton.

In his 1985 application for a political appointment in Ronald Reagan's Justice Department, Alito called attention to his membership in the group as a way to bolster his conservative bona fides. "As a federal employee subject to the Hatch Act for nearly a decade, I have been unable to take a role in partisan politics," Alito wrote then. "However, I am a lifelong registered Republican and have made the sort of modest political contributions that a federal employee can afford to make to Republican candidates and conservative causes ... I am a member of the Federalist Society for Law and Public Policy and a member of the Concerned Alumni of Princeton University, a conservative alumni group."

In testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee Tuesday, Alito said that he had "racked" his memory about CAP and has "no specific recollection of that organization." Kennedy served a reminder on Alito today, reading him excerpts from a CAP publication in which authors railed against minorities who demand to be hired simply because they're minorities and suggested that members of a gay-rights group at Princeton volunteer for scientific experiments that had been carried out on monkeys.

Alito said he wasn't familiar with such writings and didn't agree with the views expressed in them. So why did Alito join CAP, and why was he so proud of his membership that he listed it on his job application in 1985? Alito said Tuesday that he probably joined CAP "around" the time he completed his job application, and he probably did so out of concern over Princeton's decision to bar ROTC from its campus. But Kennedy pointed out that ROTC was back on campus at Princeton long before the mid-1980s -- and didn't seem to be much of an issue for CAP at that time.

Alito didn't have much in the way of answers to any of that, and Kennedy -- saying that Alito's testimony didn't "add up" -- suggested that the Judiciary Committee go into executive session to decide whether to subpoena documents about CAP. Specter responded with sudden anger, saying that Kennedy had never raised the issue with him before. Kennedy said that he sent Specter a letter on Dec. 22 in which he asked that the committee seek such documents. Specter suggested that he'd never received it.

Kennedy said he would appeal Specter's refusal to entertain a motion to subpoena the documents and would do so again and again and again until Specter acted. Specter shot back that he hadn't ruled against anything yet, then reminded Kennedy that he's not in charge. "I'm not going to have you run this committee," Specter said.

Specter eventually gaveled the conversation to a close, but Kennedy got the last word, for now: Just as the committee broke for lunch, he established that Specter's office had, in fact, received his request by introducing into the Congressional Record a copy of the letter it had sent in response.

At a press briefing a few minutes later, Kennedy made it clear that the letter from Specter's office had, in fact, rejected his request that the committee subpoena the CAP documents. He added: "It's extraordinary to me that this nominee can remember all 67 of his dissents in great, great detail, but he's still mystified about an organization that he used in his job application."

Update: The Specter-Kennedy dust-up ultimately seems to have been much ado about very little. In this afternoon's hearing session, Specter said his staff has followed up with the man who holds the records in question, and that he's happy to turn them over to the committee without the need for a subpoena.

-- Tim Grieve

Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 21:35 (twenty years ago)

At this point, filibuster the guy, let them try to change the rules, and let's have it already...

Maybe the fight over that will happen while the Scooter/Fitz/Delay/Frist investigations & trials are going on

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 21:54 (twenty years ago)

Ted Kennedy is such an embarrassing dumbass. And also stupid.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 21:57 (twenty years ago)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/68/STAmokTime.jpg

Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 21:59 (twenty years ago)

Repubs also hate Teddy the K because he's good at making stuff happen when he decides it's time to move the ball.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:01 (twenty years ago)

liberals are supposed to be wimpier

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:01 (twenty years ago)

only if Bare Knuckle Abe Lincoln is on our side

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:01 (twenty years ago)

According to my father, Teddy is secretly a socialist who wants a "New World World" with the UN being the one-world-gov't ruling all. that's why Teddy always votes to weaken america and strengthen the UN.

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:03 (twenty years ago)

The main reason they hate him is because he's a homicidal dumbass with a history of egomania and a litany of bad judgment in his big wake. Maybe if Repubs thought he was capable of making decisions on his own, they'd credit him with things like making stuff happen. But until then, they'll probably just consider him a pitiful tool.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:07 (twenty years ago)

Egomania and bad judgment, very uncommon in a 44-year political career. "Homicidal" is very original.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:10 (twenty years ago)

bringing up chappaquiddick again? try a new tactic. maybe next you'll call him a drunk?

elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:14 (twenty years ago)

the endurance of chappaquiddick

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:14 (twenty years ago)

An entire thread for Teddy's driving and swimming abilities isn't nearly as fun, which is why I didn't comment (or read) that one.

A new tactic might be Teddy's stellar academic career or history of beating raps, but as we like to say around the old news desk, "If it bleeds, it leads."

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:18 (twenty years ago)

a homicidal dumbass with a history of egomania

this is awesome in movie announcer voice

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:24 (twenty years ago)

Ted's gunna be on Ed Schultz's show in a minute, isn't he?

or did I miss him?

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:28 (twenty years ago)

gabbneb OTM.

Entire list of things that most conservatives find hilariously funny:

1. Ted Kennedy's tragic life of failing upward (because, of course, it distracts from idiots like Bush, Quayle, et al)
2. Feminists
3. Environmentalists

When your list is this short, words like homocidal tend to never lose their staying power.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:33 (twenty years ago)

conservatives find sportsmen hilariously funny?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:40 (twenty years ago)

also, you forgot gay people

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:42 (twenty years ago)

Well who doesn't think they're funny.

Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:43 (twenty years ago)

http://www.tvsquad.com/images/2005/06/queereye.jpg

Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:45 (twenty years ago)

they're more likely to hate gay people or at least "hate the sin."

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:47 (twenty years ago)

No, gay people aren't funny to conservatives so much as awfully confusing. At best.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:48 (twenty years ago)

Then why do they tell so many jokes about gay cowboys and men wearing cardigans, huh?

Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:49 (twenty years ago)

That's more a nervous chuckle, I think.

I remember reading in Bruce Bawer's *A Place at the Table* about this bizarre-ass "comic" story printed in the *Weekly Standard* that compared the heads of gay men at gay pride parades to the various kinds of squash (ie the vegetable).

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:55 (twenty years ago)

That's amazing.

Allyzay must fight Zolton herself. (allyzay), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 22:55 (twenty years ago)

I say nervous chuckle, btw, because cowboys and cardigans seem like a fairly mild thing to joke about, especially compared to subjects like gay affection and gay sex, which I would imagine would make straight conservatives anxious in a much more visceral way.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 23:03 (twenty years ago)

i see the same anti-'feminine' impulse underneath each. gay people are confusing only insofar as they fail to conform to the stereotype (which is usually, but what would they know?).

gabbneb (gabbneb), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 23:04 (twenty years ago)

the thing about gay cowboys is that(and this has probably been covered in all the recent threads) there seems so much homoeroticism around them anyway, so maybe making deliberately gay cowboys is funny since it highlights what some folks find obvious?

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 23:09 (twenty years ago)

gay men are confusing to straights because a) a straight guy (allegedly) doesn't want to blow another male any more than he'd want to blow his own mother and b) a straight guy doesn't understand why a person would want to live a life full of abject persecution because of the desire to blow other men. BECAUSE, YA KNOW, IT'S A CHOICE AND ALL.

Not really sure how this explains a straight man's (stereotypical) lust of hot girl-on-girl action though.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 23:22 (twenty years ago)

God does Coburn suck. Feel free to go on about how bad intellectual dishonesty is before committing it yourself when trying to go on about abortion law for another 10 minutes.

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Wednesday, 11 January 2006 23:55 (twenty years ago)

I'm torn between thinking Lindsey Graham is a decent man and thinking he's a decent man only to confirmees who belong to his political party.

Also, his eyes creep me out. Like Cillian Murphy's.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 12 January 2006 00:41 (twenty years ago)

It was actually the American Spectator. I'm posting this for the sheer WTF value:

"As a matter of pride, if not terminological exactitude, the homosexual community should have a fresh designation, unsullied by the past and emblematic of some genuine characteristic of homosexual life. Homosexuals need not endure slur terms but should be given an attractive appellation that pleases them and represents them as they are. I think we can all agree that the word squash is such a word. Cephalic indices and empirical observations of homosexuals at public demonstrations and on Halloween night in San Francisco have established that many homosexuals develop heads shaped very much like squash (Curubita maxima). Youthful, nicely-muscled homosexuals often have heads shaped like the well-known butternut squash, best served plain or with butter. Homosexuals less favored by nature frequently have heads reminiscent of the squat acorn squash, which is even tastier than the butternut, particularly when braised in brown sugar...Let us henceforth speak of our homosexuals as squashes. Let the universities hold their Squash Rights Week. And let us accord proper respect to the Squash Community."

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 January 2006 00:56 (twenty years ago)

The writer went on to a fine career at McSweeney's

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 12 January 2006 00:57 (twenty years ago)

Homosexuals less favored by nature frequently have heads reminiscent of the squat acorn squash, which is even tastier than the butternut, particularly when braised in brown sugar...

Worthy of Martha Stewart.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 12 January 2006 01:16 (twenty years ago)

sam alito has a head like a japanese eggplant

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 12 January 2006 03:08 (twenty years ago)

i can't believe alito's already making me like roberts. quit lowering the bar!

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 12 January 2006 03:08 (twenty years ago)

"homocidal"

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 12 January 2006 06:45 (twenty years ago)

Well, the wife sniffling as Graham does his Phony Bullshit Apology has sealed Alito's confirmation. TV replacing democracy at its finest. Let's start this fucking debased country all over again. KABOOM.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 January 2006 14:16 (twenty years ago)

it's fucking amazing that a woman crying trumps all other injustices. morbs, i'm with ya.

Jams Murphy (ystrickler), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:38 (twenty years ago)

Matthew, from Fairfield Ct writes:
Hi. What's the Patriot Act? Thank you. Matthew (age 10)

Rachel Brand
The USA PATRIOT Act is a very important piece of legislation that Senators and Representatives came together to pass shortly after the horrific attacks of September 11, 2001. With this bill, Congress gave law enforcement (such as police officers and prosecutors) and national security investigators additional tools to protect Americans from harm. One thing the bill did was try to make sure that people going after terrorists and spies could use the same tools as people going after mobsters and drug dealers, which was not always the case before September 11. The bill also tried to make sure that the law was keeping up with the amazing changes in technology that have happened. The bill also tore down the so-called “wall” that prevented some FBI agents from sharing information with other FBI agents, even if they were all investigating Osama bin Laden. For the last four years, the USA PATRIOT Act has formed a cornerstone of this Administration’s efforts to protect Americans and our civil liberties. We are proud of our record over the last four years.

$!$@$!, Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:45 (twenty years ago)

"The Today Show" devoted a segemnt to Katie Couric berating Joe Biden for spearheading "a process" that is, in Biden's words, "broken," all cuz Mrs. Alito wept like Tammi Fae Bakker. Biden, in his usual verbose, equivocal manner, took it like a stooge.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:49 (twenty years ago)

Your fellow citizens, folks. Let's give 'em a hand xpost

Jimmy Mod (I myself am lethal at 100 -110dB) (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:51 (twenty years ago)

Wait wait, I haven't been able to follow this -- WTF was she crying about?

elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:54 (twenty years ago)

cuz her hubby was being asked fair questions why he put a racist, sexist Princeton reactionary gang on his resume in 1985.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 January 2006 16:56 (twenty years ago)

http://www.dailyvanguard.com/pages/uploaded_images/ac-hor13-929.jpg

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:05 (twenty years ago)

meanwhile Biden just looooves the limelight soooo much he, uh, wants to get rid of it

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:08 (twenty years ago)

I think there's something to that... certainly the dog & pony show that currently exists is usually pointless.

Check and Balances to Martha-Ann: BOO FUCKING HOO

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:09 (twenty years ago)

ROFFLEHAUS

GET EQUIPPED WITH BUBBLE LEAD (ex machina), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:13 (twenty years ago)

I'm just waiting for some Alito supporter to bring the whole thing full circle and say "Of course he isn't racist -- He's Italian!"

elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:15 (twenty years ago)

I thought Lindsey Graham in essence said it yesterday.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:18 (twenty years ago)

Abortion unlikely to instantly become illegal in Illinois--
http://www.illinoistimes.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid%3A4541

But it no doubt will be made illegal in 30 or so states the day after Roe v Wade is overturned. This could be a galvanizing force for Democrats in the same way the opposite has been a galvanizing force for conservatives for the last 33 years.

Bnad (Bnad), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:34 (twenty years ago)

I'm waiting for some Dem to attack Happy To Be Here Jurisprudence

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 12 January 2006 17:43 (twenty years ago)

This could be a galvanizing force for Democrats in the same way the opposite has been a galvanizing force for conservatives for the last 33 years.

With all due respect, I can't picture 500 far-lefties lying down in the streets of Wichita to legalize abortion.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 12 January 2006 18:46 (twenty years ago)

i think an outright reversal of roe is pretty unlikely, even with alito, and even if byron white is likewise replaced by a conservative. not impossible, but unlikely. if griswold is really off the table, and both roberts and alito say it is, then the question becomes how far past griswold the right of privacy extends. to the morning-after pill? almost certainly. so then where's the line? at uterine implantation? at "viability", wherever that happens to be given current medical technology? and who needs to be involved in the decision: the father? parents (in the case of minors)? what constitutes "health and safety of the mother"? those are gonna be the battlegrounds, i think, and they'll be adjudicated one at a time as different states pass different restrictions. just throwing roe out completely seems like a pretty remote possibility.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:03 (twenty years ago)

Repubs also hate Teddy the K because he's good at making stuff happen when he decides it's time to move the ball.

Keep making stuff like that happen, Teddy the K. The Repubs will thank you when Alito gets 60+ votes.:

don weiner (don weiner), Thursday, 12 January 2006 19:57 (twenty years ago)

This could be a galvanizing force for Democrats in the same way the opposite has been a galvanizing force for conservatives for the last 33 years.

Er, it sort of has been the galvanizing force for the center-left in recent years - the threat of Roe being overturned, that is. It's certainly been the issue by far and away in front of many, many others, as well the cash cow for some of the larger organizations. Both sides use it to be sure.

TRG (TRG), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:02 (twenty years ago)

what constitutes "health and safety of the mother"?

Tom Coburn was going on about this yesterday, saying how "well you're twice as likely to use drugs if you have an abortion" etc

kingfish, Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:08 (twenty years ago)

Re Kennedy's effectiveness, it's irrelevant here -- anything short of a Bork-level wingnut who makes it to hearings is going to be confirmed for theforeseeable future.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:12 (twenty years ago)

Tom Coburn

Ewwwwaaahhh ... the name alone inspires dread

TRG (TRG), Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:13 (twenty years ago)

i do kinda wish Harriet Miers woulda made it this far, just for the spectacle alone

kingfish, Thursday, 12 January 2006 20:17 (twenty years ago)

oh harriet gave us plenty of spectacle. three solid weeks of republican intramural hilarity. i'm forever in her debt.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 12 January 2006 22:00 (twenty years ago)

oh i know, it just didn't last long enough.

in other news, i like this op-ed about the attacks on Knight-Ridder when they tried to portray Alito as conservative, but i would take issue with this bit:

...On the radio, on the Internet, on cable television and in print, partisans on both sides attack any news reporting that fails to advance their agendas or confirm their biases. Zealous partisans in both major parties have adopted a "with us or against us" attitude. It's not only unhealthy but also, I believe, dangerous...

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 12 January 2006 22:07 (twenty years ago)

http://www.crooksandliars.com/images/Cavuot-Alito-Viscious-dems.jpg

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 00:04 (twenty years ago)

Is it really looking like no filibuster at this point, as the CNN legal analyst said? Not enough "critical mass" to make the move that will cause Republicans seek the goddamn nuclear option? If the Democrats don't take a stand here they are truly a goddamn spineless lot. I can't believe I'm hearing this.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:16 (twenty years ago)

It doesn't surprise me in the least.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:18 (twenty years ago)

There's no reason to filibuster him. If the Dems were gonna filibuster anyone it was Thomas, who was 10 times the hack and 10 times the threat to their interests that a smiling non-entity like Alito is.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:22 (twenty years ago)

"Smiling non entity" - no way. How about far right nutjob who didn't answer any of the questions related to far right ideology/Supreme Court issues? What are you saying, Alfred? That you only filibuster someone if they're a "hack?" He's been a good boy/good worker all along w/ good SAT scores so let's just let him pass through?

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:29 (twenty years ago)

Lieberman has said a filibuster is on the table. I'm not convinced that TV analysts saying a filibuster is unlikely are not just motivated by personal agendas of trying to make it look radical if it does happen.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:36 (twenty years ago)

i think they should do a two-week filibuster. say up front that it's only going to be two weeks because they recognize that it's important to fill the seat and that there's no chance of getting a decent nominee out of this administration, but hold it up just to make the point that alito is likely to roll back reproductive rights, separation of powers, environmental regulation, protection from government surveillance, etc. etc.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:39 (twenty years ago)

If the Dems were gonna filibuster anyone it was Thomas, who was 10 times the hack and 10 times the threat to their interests that a smiling non-entity like Alito is.

Of course, the Democrats held a majority in the Senate back then, so a filibuster would've been unnecessary.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 13 January 2006 02:53 (twenty years ago)

The odds of a filibuster are approximately 1,098,201 to one.

don weiner (don weiner), Friday, 13 January 2006 03:16 (twenty years ago)

"Smiling non entity" - no way. How about far right nutjob who didn't answer any of the questions related to far right ideology/Supreme Court issues? What are you saying, Alfred? That you only filibuster someone if they're a "hack?" He's been a good boy/good worker all along w/ good SAT scores so let's just let him pass through?

A president is allowed a certain amount of discretion when nominating someone for SCOTUS. It doesn't particular bother me that he's a "far-right wingnut." I didn't expect Clinton to nominate anyone but a far-left wingnut in Ruth Bader Ginsberg (and I'm not calling Clinton a far-left wingnut).

So Alito won't answer questions. Boo fucking hoo. Breyer, Roberts, Souter, and Ginsberg didn't either, which should tell you something about the absurdity of holding hearings. Sixty years ago these things were debated before the whole Senate and were probably less a waste of intellectual energy. To hear the likes of Coburn, Lindsay Graham, Kennedy, Biden, and Brownback sound less cogent than the hack before them does the American political system no favors.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:02 (twenty years ago)

I didn't expect Clinton to nominate anyone but a far-left wingnut in Ruth Bader Ginsberg

uh, you do know how she was nominated, right?

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:05 (twenty years ago)

Yup, which tells me that there's more collusion between the two parties than the public heavings of Schumer, Hatch, et al would lead us to believe.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:09 (twenty years ago)

or there was 13 years ago, maybe, or an Executive who'd actually listen to somebody of the opposition party

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:12 (twenty years ago)

I'm not saying boo hoo he didn't answer the questions. I'm saying filibuster his ass because he's a nutjob who won't guarantee he'll uphold simple Constitutional principles such as Separation of Powers and teh 14th Amendment.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:17 (twenty years ago)

salient difference then being, of course, that that Executive was in the minority party and was going to need the majority to get his nomination through.

So let's not get all sanctimonious about Clinton taking Hatch's advice.

don weiner (don weiner), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:18 (twenty years ago)

Uh, another salient point being that the party of that Executive was actually, y'know, in control of both houses at that point.

Joe Biden was Committee chair.

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:27 (twenty years ago)

I'm saying filibuster his ass because he's a nutjob who won't guarantee he'll uphold simple Constitutional principles such as Separation of Powers and teh 14th Amendment.

Bleh. Why should we need a guarantee? The direction of the court shifts depending upon the president appointing its justices. Besides, Kennedy and Souter showed that they could morph beyond what their supporters (and their own statements, mind you) expected.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:29 (twenty years ago)

Why should we need a guarantee that he'll uphold anything then? Why have debate, or indeed even a vote, at all?

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:32 (twenty years ago)

oof, you're right kingfish! Also, I'd thought Breyer came after the '94 elections as well. I was poised to be doubly ignorant.

Although I really don't think your point says much about anything until a Democrat on the Judiciary Committee comes forth with a list of right-wing judges that Democrats in the Senate would have supported en masse instead of Alito.

don weiner (don weiner), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:42 (twenty years ago)

I just think the point I wanted to make was that Ginsburg isn't/wasn't a "far-left wingnut," despite what some would say.

Also,

a Democrat on the Judiciary Committee comes forth with a list of right-wing judges

dude, they did. A coupla times, wasn't? This was all going on late last summer when there were the Admin headfakes that a latino women might be nominated.

On a different note, are there ANY "far-left wingnuts" actually in public office right now? I mean folks who are open Maoists or something, calling for the govt to own all means of production, etc. Or is that just the usual "deliberately paint your opponents as whackos" kinda thing?

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 04:53 (twenty years ago)

Ok, looks like it happened a little earlier in the year than I remember. Here we go:

-First, John Podesta wrote this bit last May, when all the filibuster noise was going on, about an idea that Robert Byrd & Arlen Specter proposed in 1997:

...that the White House and the bipartisan leadership of the Senate enter into a formal consultative process that would yield a list of nominees who are broadly acceptable to both sides.

-The Moonie Times later complained that the list submitted by Democratic Leaders in July was bullshit and "a setup".

-A bit here from October about Harriet Miers probably being on that list. We all remember Harry Reid & Dick Durbin being all-a-smiles and openly supportive of her nom, right?

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 05:06 (twenty years ago)


GRRRRR a latino women => woman, obv

kingfish russian bigamist (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 13 January 2006 05:08 (twenty years ago)

If the Democrats don't take a stand here they are truly a goddamn spineless lot.

Their anatomy is our destiny.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 13 January 2006 14:21 (twenty years ago)

"Besides, Kennedy and Souter showed that they could morph beyond what their supporters (and their own statements, mind you) expected."
-- Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (sotoal...), January 13th, 2006

Only on a Supreme Court with Scalia and Thomas, can anyone see Kennedy's decisionmaking as morphing. Thomas has not morphed and I do not expect Alito to morph.

curmudgeon, Friday, 13 January 2006 15:26 (twenty years ago)

MIGHTY MORPHIN POWER JUSTICES!!!!!!!

sorry.

hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 13 January 2006 15:30 (twenty years ago)

Dean of Mass. School of Law suggests the Dems would've been better off proposing a Repub they'd prefer... like Specter:

"It seems pretty clear that, if they are still serious about trying to defeat a candidate who has made it seem very likely that he will vote in favor of the democracy-destroying constitutional coup d'etat being attempted by Bush, Cheney, Yoo and the rest of those traitors to the American Constitution, then the Democrats had better try Allard Loewenstein's principle that you can't beat somebody with nobody. The Democrats had better make clear that there are lots of moderate Republicans for whom they would willingly and gladly vote, and that Specter is an immediately available example of this willingness."

http://counterpunch.org/velvel01132006.html


Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 13 January 2006 20:11 (twenty years ago)

That's a good article Dr Morbius. Though it also seems to me that Schumer tried the approach he recommends when he writes: "Likewise, a senator could say to Alito that his refusal to say that Roe v. Wade is settled law will be taken to mean that he might well vote to overrule it...This is all so simple that it is astonishing that no senator has done it as far as I know. And these simple kinds of statements would have been so much more effective than trying to paint Alito as a liar and a bigot." I'm referring to Schumer's anecdote about his friend and his friend's mother-in-law.

TRG (TRG), Friday, 13 January 2006 20:32 (twenty years ago)

Teddy the K, deciding it's time to move the ball once again. Because 52 years is "as fast" as he can.

Meanwhile, a filibuster is looking more and more unlikely. Or maybe the Reid Revolution is just playing some kickass poker.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 04:10 (twenty years ago)

File under "Portents of the Future":

Our new Bush-appointed Chief Justice John Roberts just sided with Justices Scalia and Thomas in a minority opinion upholding ex-AG Ashcroft's assertion that the feds could shut down Oregon's assisted suicide law, because they can regulate "dangerous drugs" any way they damn well please. There's no possible doubt that a Justice Alito would form a fourth leg of this growing voting bloc.

Oddly, it used to be that upholding states' rights against federal hegemony was considered a conservative position. Nowadays, "conservative" justices swing both ways, based on whatever the religious right declares is Fealty to God's Will.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 18:31 (twenty years ago)

In this instance Scalia and Thomas' dissents has little or nothin to do w/God's Will or conservatism. It's the federal government's constitutional authority to regulate interstate commerce, and thus their dissent is in line with the Court's ruling last year.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 18:58 (twenty years ago)

Oh, Alfred! If you closely examine Scalia's and Thomas's opinions, votes and writings in the past, you'll see that they both have made or signed on to arguments that favor a very narrow and limited interpretation of the interstate commerce clause.

In these arguments they have scorned in choice language the very idea that this clause grants the Congress sweeping powers over aspects of national life that have only a marginal connection to "commerce" between the states. They also have rejected as flawed the reasoning of earlier Supreme Court opinions that extended these powers and set the precedents for wider Congressional powers.

Of course, this principled philosophical stance of Scalia and Thomas is highly fungible in, um, certain kinds of cases - like this one, for example. Suddenly, their strongly expressed scorn for others who used this reasoning has no discernable effect on their ability to employ it for their own purposes, when this type of reasoning becomes convenient and can be stretched into a shape they find pleasing. And they have no compunction in extending this theory of federal power to wholly new and novel applications when it serves a political agenda they approve.

I perfectly recognize that many, many justices can be arraigned for this tendency, but few of those other justices have posed and postured so hypocritically as Scalia and Thomas have in this regard.

their dissent is in line with the Court's ruling last year

Of which ruling are you thinking? The Ninth Appeals Court ruling last year was based on solid precedents against applying this legal theory in this context. Six SC justices just affirmed this ruling was correct.

Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 19:49 (twenty years ago)

yeah, it's interesting that the one thing o'connor was most ideological on -- states' rights -- is the one thing where the court's other "conservatives" seem willing to get constitutionally creative depending on the issue.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 20:02 (twenty years ago)

The solution to this entire SC problem is to each start an excellent, gourmet greasy all-purpose restaurant very nearby the residences of Thomas and Scalia.

Dom iNut (donut), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 20:06 (twenty years ago)

"Cocunut-fried chicken steak bacon focaccia, with peanut butter fudge on the side"

Dom iNut (donut), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 20:08 (twenty years ago)

"deep fried fudge, that is"

Dom iNut (donut), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 20:15 (twenty years ago)

everybody knows that deep fried twinkies are a better compliment to the coconut/bacon bouquet. and this is truly astounding when paired with a Blizzard made with crumbled donuts as a libation.

don weiner (don weiner), Wednesday, 18 January 2006 21:13 (twenty years ago)

ROFFLITO
http://ordinary.blogs.com/photos/uncategorized/alitopurdue.png

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Thursday, 19 January 2006 07:20 (twenty years ago)

he was just representing a client

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Thursday, 19 January 2006 07:29 (twenty years ago)

Sirhan Sirhanlarious

Dom iNut (donut), Thursday, 19 January 2006 07:56 (twenty years ago)

FCT, where was that from?

A BOLD QUAHOG (ex machina), Thursday, 19 January 2006 08:02 (twenty years ago)

http://www.regrettheerror.com/2006/01/breaking_alito_.html

Forksclovetofu (Forksclovetofu), Thursday, 19 January 2006 15:16 (twenty years ago)

James Wolcott: "If Alito is confirmed, Mrs. Alito and Judge Clarence Thomas's wife can commisserate by exchanging monogrammed crying towels as their men folk roll back women's rights and civil liberties and go duck hunting weekends with Scalia."

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 19 January 2006 15:18 (twenty years ago)

kerry calls for a filibuster, so says the front page of cnn.com

t0dd swiss (immobilisme), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:24 (twenty years ago)

not gonna happen. He's just grandstanding. preparing for next pres campaign.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:28 (twenty years ago)

of course, if he didn't do it, he would be 'rolling over'

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:31 (twenty years ago)

He should've thought about such things when he was busy voting yea for Scalia.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:40 (twenty years ago)

like every single other Dem and Rep Senator?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:44 (twenty years ago)

just cuz everybody was doing it doesn't make it right. Dems don't seem to grasp this concept.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:45 (twenty years ago)

I love watching the Reid Revolution unfold.

don weiner (don weiner), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:47 (twenty years ago)

shakey, gabbneb what type of form letter did you get from yr senators when you wrote them to say 'hey motherfucker don't you vote for this dude'. mine specifically refuted each of my points with basically 'but bush sez this and i trust bush' (particularly 'dear constituent: fuck you' since the jist of my letter was 'grow some balls and don't just rubberstamp whatever george tells you to'), so specifically i suspect someone actually read it beyond 'this guy's against'.

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:50 (twenty years ago)

don you really think reid's doing a worse job than daschle? the dems are putting up more of a fight with considerably less power than they had under uncle tom.

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:51 (twenty years ago)

Byrd is voting yea

Lierberman, nay

Jeffords, nay

TRG (TRG), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:53 (twenty years ago)

blount, i worked in my senator's office, signing his name on such letters, or even writing them, when i was 17. and i know just as well as you do how my Senators are going to vote.

xp: Lieberman is a traitor! Byrd is an anti-war hero!

gabbneb (gabbneb), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:54 (twenty years ago)

haha i guess byrd was like 'let's not get bent out of shape about past memberships in racist organizations here folx!'

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:58 (twenty years ago)

or did alito drop a thucydides quote somewhere in the proceedings?

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 26 January 2006 21:59 (twenty years ago)

Byrd is like "I come from a conservative state and I'm up for reelection and a nay vote wouldn't look good" is what it comes down to. Ok on some issues but a politician at the end of the day.

TRG (TRG), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:02 (twenty years ago)

"and I'm up for reelection [probably for the very last time] and a nay vote wouldn't look good"

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:29 (twenty years ago)

don you really think reid's doing a worse job than daschle?

blount, I'm just following up on this link from this thread.

but to answer your question, no.

don weiner (don weiner), Thursday, 26 January 2006 22:36 (twenty years ago)

Talk now is that Kerry may initiate the filibuster and an announcement is forthcoming?

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 27 January 2006 00:52 (twenty years ago)

Petition, if anyone wants to sign:

http://www.johnkerry.com/action/filibuster/

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 27 January 2006 00:57 (twenty years ago)

the article about Kerry in GQ this month is a nice elaboration on that post, Tim. Check it out.

don weiner (don weiner), Friday, 27 January 2006 00:57 (twenty years ago)

uh, Kerry isn't even in the country at the moment. He'll obviously have to get back quick to start one...

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2006 01:07 (twenty years ago)

Talk now is that Kerry may initiate the filibuster and an announcement is forthcoming?

yeah, he's going to try to, apparently, but it's not going to get very far - the dems don't have the votes to continue debate

gabbneb (gabbneb), Friday, 27 January 2006 02:02 (twenty years ago)

Democrats pussy out once again - paving the way for the Supreme Court to validate whatever crazy mad-illegal shit Dubya pulls/has pulled under the pretense of "executive privelege".

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2006 20:12 (twenty years ago)

"Don't worry, they're gonna stand up tall when it counts!"

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 January 2006 20:18 (twenty years ago)

as long as it doesn't make them "look weak"

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2006 20:24 (twenty years ago)

May as well get ready to change the headline to
Samuel Alito is the next new Supreme Court Justice

If anyone is actually surprised by how this has turned out, I'd be surprised.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Friday, 27 January 2006 20:49 (twenty years ago)

And God damn Byrd for playing games when he's 150 years old.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Friday, 27 January 2006 22:06 (twenty years ago)

way to "project strength" guys: http://news.yahoo.com/fc/US/Supreme_Court

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 27 January 2006 23:34 (twenty years ago)

A coupla years of this fucktard and we'll get to be the new century's first new monarchy. Officially, I mean.

Ian in Brooklyn, Saturday, 28 January 2006 00:02 (twenty years ago)

apparently a limited filibuster (up to the nuclear option line, or at least to make a point) may be in the offing. and who knows, maybe they can run the thing right into the SOTU. if you want to support, you can contact Senators via this page. more contact info here, which claims that Kennedy advises to call both Senators from each of New Jersey, Arkansas, Washington and Maine, among others. this page claims that Mikulski (Maryland) and Salazar (Colorado) are sticking points, so residents of those states should contact them.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:47 (twenty years ago)

If anyone thinks that it's politically viable for the two Democrat Senators from Arkansas, who have already said they'd vote no on both Alito's nomination and the filibuster, should follow the advice of Ted Kennedy in an election year, you're mad.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:01 (twenty years ago)

I don't really have a firm position on the politics of this - I see arguments on both sides. But while I'm all for maintaining a 40-plus majority, and counting our purple-state blessings, I care a lot more about whether Alito is on the court than whether Pryor is in the Congress.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:06 (twenty years ago)

a limited filibuster (up to the nuclear option line, or at least to make a point)

And the point made would be that the Democrats were not just too weak to defeat the Republicans, but also too afraid of being beaten up to stand up for their rights.

Aimless (Aimless), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:10 (twenty years ago)

Well, a few of them, perhaps. But I think the point being made is that you really don't think this guy has any business being on the court. Seems like a very traditional use of the filibuster to me: to allow more time for airing of grievances on the floor over this horrible nomination.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:14 (twenty years ago)

I'd sorta like to believe that Byrd declared support for Alito so he could lead the defense when Frist invokes the nuclear option (the reverse in a sense of Chafee opposing Alito but voting for cloture), but I wouldn't bet on it.

Lieberman, who was supposedly on board or at least on the fence, is apparently going to vote for cloture now.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:15 (twenty years ago)

at a certain point -- and i think this is that point -- the "keeping our powder dry" excuse looks more like "we don't actually have any powder."

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:17 (twenty years ago)

I care a lot more about whether Alito is on the court than whether Pryor is in the Congress.

Thing is, I don't think that Senator Pryor feels this way.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:36 (twenty years ago)

are you sure?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:18 (twenty years ago)

not that I believe a second-hand report like that. but I found Pryor's purported strong opposition hard to square with earlier comments he had made.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:19 (twenty years ago)

The Senate can only vote to change the rules on the first day of business in a session. The so-called "Nuclear Option" isn't even on the table.

Hatch (Hatch), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:55 (twenty years ago)

Hooray for Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, the only Republican who will vote no. Chafee for top of GOP ticket in 2008, plz. And hooray for Jeffords, who voted for the filibuster.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:08 (twenty years ago)

19 defectors in cloture. The Reid Revolution marches onward!

don weiner (don weiner), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:13 (twenty years ago)

Hooray for Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island, the only Republican who will vote no. Chafee for top of GOP ticket in 2008, plz.

please. Rove wants Chafee to vote no.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:15 (twenty years ago)

Wait, why?

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:24 (twenty years ago)

So it will look like the GOP has some diversity of opinion? Who cares what Rove thinks, as long as Chafee's opinion is genuine?

And the GOP choosing a non-maniac for its 2008 nomination would be sweet. Doesn't mean I'll vote for him/her, but at least we won't have a maniac in one way or the other.

Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:39 (twenty years ago)

aaaaaaand we're done.

Real impressive Democratic show of force there, guys.

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:54 (twenty years ago)

fake democracy = pricey

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 16:58 (twenty years ago)

58-42

They didn't bring it when it counted.

kingfish, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:22 (twenty years ago)

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Aimless (Aimless), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:30 (twenty years ago)

a lot of it is electoral calculation, which i can't say i'm an expert on. but a lot of it is also the desire to save the filibuster for when Bush, or his successor, gets to appoint someone to take the place of Stevens or Ginsburg, or both. i think that's a risky gamble, though, even if this time we're "just" shifting the center from O'Connor to Kennedy. because if Bush appoints someone next time who's reasonably to the left of Alito, especially if it's a woman (or even an actual moderate who will nevertheless help shift the court further right on issues of choice, privacy, etc., like Mary Ann Glendon), the Dems will be stuck with this vote.

gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:31 (twenty years ago)

as much as i despise alito, the whining on this thread is almost worse. maybe.

hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 17:32 (twenty years ago)

They didn't bring it when it counted.

Was there any chance that Bush would've pulled the nomination with a majority of the senate ready to vote in favor? No.

Would a filibuster seemed to most Americans like Democrats were "obstructing the process" again? Probably.

Will Bush's next nominee make Alito look like Roberts? No doubt.

Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 18:04 (twenty years ago)

MoveOn.org: "Alito ended up with more 'no' votes than all but one confirmed Supreme Court justice in American history." So I can sleep now.

Dr Morbius (Dr Morbius), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:29 (twenty years ago)

wow, so reassuring... welp, guess I better get as many abortions as I can now while they're still legal!

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:31 (twenty years ago)

Also, note to self: "marry box turtle"

Shakey Mo Collier (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:32 (twenty years ago)

and he had quite an interesting first day

kingfish has gene rayburn's mic (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 3 February 2006 21:22 (twenty years ago)

sixteen years pass...

"Justice Samuel Alito said Tuesday that the leak of his draft opinion to overturn Roe v. Wade made his colleagues in the majority on the U.S. Supreme Court 'targets for assassination.' "

BY ANN E. MARIMOWTHE WASHINGTON POST

How is the leak what caused this and not the opinion/ruling itself

| (Latham Green), Wednesday, 26 October 2022 15:26 (three years ago)

How is the leak what caused this and not the opinion/ruling itself

His reasoning on this is pure Alito, iow, badly flawed.

He said that by leaking his horrific opinion before it was ratified by a majority and issued from the bench, it provided a "rational" motive to kill some member of the court who would presumably join in that majority, thus forestalling it. Which presumes that potential assassins would shrug and accept the court's ruling because it was a done deal and there'd no longer be any point to an assassination, rather than someone becoming sufficiently enraged at the majority to kill one of them for their duly recorded crime against the nation.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Wednesday, 26 October 2022 16:54 (three years ago)

Was Alito expecting that his opinion would be leaked?
Is he aware that he is delegitimizing the court?

youn, Wednesday, 26 October 2022 20:35 (three years ago)

He did not anticipate it being leaked. It came as a surprise to him.

Alito does not consider anything he does to have even the slightest trace of illegitimacy and anyone who disagrees with his jurisprudence is simply wrong.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Wednesday, 26 October 2022 21:56 (three years ago)

Again, the thought that a pro-lifer may have leaked the opinion is completely beyond their imagination.

Lord Pickles (Boring, Maryland), Wednesday, 26 October 2022 22:32 (three years ago)

No one is above the law - except the Supreme Court

Can't believe Thomas hasn't stepped down considering his wife's crazy acts

| (Latham Green), Thursday, 27 October 2022 19:43 (three years ago)

I can believe it.

immodesty blaise (jimbeaux), Thursday, 27 October 2022 19:48 (three years ago)

No one is above the law - except the Supreme Court

SCOTUS justices are subject to impeachment and removal just like all those presidents we've impeached and removed from office.

more difficult than I look (Aimless), Friday, 28 October 2022 01:25 (three years ago)

"The only Justice to be impeached was Associate Justice Samuel Chase in 1805. The House of Representatives passed Articles of Impeachment against him; however, he was acquitted by the Senate."

https://www.supremecourt.gov/about/faq_general.aspx#:~:text=The%20only%20Justice%20to%20be,Have%20there%20always%20been%20nine%3F

Another Samuel!

| (Latham Green), Friday, 28 October 2022 13:40 (three years ago)


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