Japanese things vs. French things vs. Australian things vs. English things vs. American things vs. German things vs. Canadian things

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I think we can all agree that collectively, the above countries make the best things in the world. However, which of them actually produces the best things? I want a definitive answer.

A friend of mine really likes Japanese things and says they are the best but another friend swears by French things, and he really knows what he is talking about. Then another friend of mine loves all English things, almost without question. I guess I'm a bit partial to American things myself, but I haven't made up my mind yet one way or the other

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Thingist.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

The Scots might be VERY pissed off when they see this thread ...

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

French foods.
Japanese toys.
American and English music.
Australian critters.
Scots whiskey.

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

The Scots might be VERY pissed off when they see this thread ...

They shouldn't be, because Scottish things aren't very good and everyone knows that. Same for New Zealand.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey Orbit, if you're still thinking about getting hitched and moving to Canada then I think you'd better add something to your list ... :)

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Sexy Canadian citizenship!

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:34 (twenty-one years ago)

are you kidding? the best things are hand made. the best things come from India or Tanzania or somewhere.

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Italian things!

― teeny (teeny), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Italian things are all surface, no substance.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Indian and Tanzanian things fall apart easily.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Swedish furniture?

― Patrick Allan (adr), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

too 90s.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Good things are timeless.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:41 (twenty-one years ago)

Indian and Tanzanian things only fall apart if you are a rough insensitive brute with no feel for a nice thing.

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Alright, what about Swiss Army Knives?
xpost

― Patrick Allan (adr), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:43 (twenty-one years ago)

indian things usually have beautiful colours

― gem (trisk), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

i have a feeling adam likes things which are mass produced yet will give him a sense of middle aged security. expensive things. nothing that he can like for itself rather than the kudos it will bring to him by association.

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

You all have TERRIBLE taste in things!

xpost

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:45 (twenty-one years ago)

haha but taste is subjective!

― gem (trisk), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

adam, is a speedboat the kind of thing you would like?

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

what kind of bullshit human being wouldn't like a speedboat?!?!?!?!

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Italian food, shurely?
French clothing
Japanese hitech gadgetry
English comedy
Canadian Quebecois swearwords
German beer I guess (I cant think of anything else)
American... umm... err... cartoon shows!

Australians are only good at taking the piss out of the rest of youse ;D

― Trayce (trayce), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes. A Japanese speedboat.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Who wants a fucking Tanzanian speedboat? I mean, I'm sure they make nice rugs and shit like that...

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm drunk, by the way.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

australians make very nice wines

― gem (trisk), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Eeep, I read that as "Australians make very nice wives"!

― Patrick Allan (adr), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:49 (twenty-one years ago)

American wives are the best, actually.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:50 (twenty-one years ago)

belgian things

― not the mountain goats (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Stop deviating from the brief!!!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:52 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm torn between French, German, and Japanese things.

(women, cars, and tech)

― Andrew (enneff), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:52 (twenty-one years ago)

ANDREW IN WOMEN = THINGS SHOCKER

― Andrew (enneff), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:52 (twenty-one years ago)

People don't count. If they did, I would throw in some Norwegians and shit.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, well in that case replace "women" with "cool".

― Andrew (enneff), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:55 (twenty-one years ago)

You have an Australian's logic.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:56 (twenty-one years ago)

australians make good logic

― gem (trisk), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely you mean "logs".

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 03:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Ice is my favourite thing. Ice and fire. Ice and fire and the forest at night. These things are good.

― Sami Jheryllkanyga, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

OKAY COLIN (OR GAZ)

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Japan seems to produce a lot of things I like - a broad generalization, but from what I know, Japan is very much about things and making and buying new things. It's about a sheer quantity of (cool) things, Japan.

The U.S. though has a lot of things too, but I don't know, it's a different kind of Material Culture. Is it more about the big, "useful" things and getting those? vs. the tiny (Japanese) things that are fun, and trendy and inherently disposable and often intentionally frivolous.

Canadian snowmobiles! Like speedboats for snow! xpost.

― rrrobyn (rrrobyn), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:06 (twenty-one years ago)

If we could combine the coolness of Japan with the usefulness of America and the art/beauty of India and Tanzania, WOULD WE GET THE PERFECT THING?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

No, because that leaves out Europe.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Is POKEMON the perfect thing?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, that goes without saying.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

no pokemon is the wrong colour

― gem (trisk), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:09 (twenty-one years ago)

BLUE POKEMON?

BLUE being the colour of the sky and the sea and the air?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Not the air, actually.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Japanese trains
French clothes
Australian wine
English best mate
American guitars
German cars
Canadian beer

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Pokemon come in ALL COLORS, people, you're thinking of PIKACHU, who only comes in yellow.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Canadian beer????

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I AM SITTING 3 FEET FROM A PIKACHU RIGHT NOW!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Powerbooks are obviosuly the perfect thing and who makes them?

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

That;s right, (Northern) Californians.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:14 (twenty-one years ago)

powerbooks are perfect, i can't argue with that

― gem (trisk), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

italian fabrics.
wool for suits, leather for shoes/coats/sofas, silk for ties.

no substitute.

― todd swiss (eliti), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:24 (twenty-one years ago)

I AM SITTING ONLY 3 FEET FROM A PIKACHU TOO WTF?

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:24 (twenty-one years ago)

"Canadian beer????"

YES, CANADIAN BEER!

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Ben Grimm

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I am sitting within 3 feet of lots of expensive japanese things that are all on top of something cheap and swedish! And typing in english. I am inhaling something turkish and american! But my true love is in New York.

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I am drinking something American and typing on something American which is on top of something Swedish. I am wearing something English and listening to something German. After this I am going to watch something Chinese!

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:36 (twenty-one years ago)

I must try this "canadian beer".

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:36 (twenty-one years ago)

No, yyou mustn't.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

okay! (I am easily swayed)

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Canadian beer is only good when compared to American "beer".

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:42 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm guessing canadian beer is about as good as australian beer then?

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I am "European".

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:44 (twenty-one years ago)

I am "Colombian," the proudest export of a country known for exporting two of the world's most likeable stimulants.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Wait...waht's the second one?

Oh right.

never mind.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Good old colombia!

*heh*

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Is the second one smiles?

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:48 (twenty-one years ago)

No, that's South Carolina.

― adam... (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:49 (twenty-one years ago)

and that's tobacco.

― Remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Jesus Christ people! Canadian beer is just fine thankyouverymuch! I hate European beer snobs. We've got more grain and clean water than we know what to do with. If you explore beyond the two major breweries (although I love Labatt Blue) there are a lot of beers that compare very favourably with anything I've had anywhere in the world.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 04:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Try the damn Canuk beer, you!

xpost - dude there's some gooood European beer out there.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Stupid contradictory xposts.

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I am drinking a French wine, with my Pimsleur's German 1 playing on my American ibook. So that covers a few. Australia also makes yummy wines- Rosemont Estate Merlot, specifically, and Tasmania Pinot Noirs.

For Japanese, hmmm. Can I nominate a non-thing? When I get email from my JP coworkers in Tokyo, they always start with "Dear Lyra-san, We have a new config that you need to review..." which I love, so I always email them back the same. When I email folks in Seattle I just jump into the email aka "this thing needs an updated config file pls fix thx lyra" which is not so interesting.

Oh yeah, and I SUCK at german. I can't sort out anything from this lesson. Blech.

― lyra (lyra), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:08 (twenty-one years ago)

What about good ol' American know-how?

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Don't you mean "can-do"?

― Andrew (enneff), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:22 (twenty-one years ago)

I live in America, and am thus very uncertain where any of my things actually came from. Except canadian beer. I can smell that piss from ten feet.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Canada: such fine physicists ;-)

― Orbit (Orbit), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Canada: physicists
Germany: engineers
France: poets
Australia: quantum information theorists (seriously)
Japan: computer programmers
America: basketball players

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 05:59 (twenty-one years ago)

oh,
England: publishers of the work of the above people

― MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:06 (twenty-one years ago)

You don't like our beer, eh? Fine, we'll take it back, along with insulin. Ha! Didn't see that one coming, did you?

― Huk-L, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:16 (twenty-one years ago)

Old Joke:

In Heaven...
The French are the chefs
The Germans are the mechanics
The Italians are the lovers
The Swiss are the government, and
The English are the police.

In Hell...
The French are the mechanics
The Germans are the police
The Italians are the government
The Swiss are the the lovers, and
The English are the chefs.

BTW, I adore facile stereotypes.

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:44 (twenty-one years ago)

what a strange thread, to start.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:45 (twenty-one years ago)

it's not very adam, is it?

― Remy (x Jeremy), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I couldn't say, really.

― RJG (RJG), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Are powerbooks actually manufactured in California? That's pretty cool, if so.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It's in the Apple bylaws that Powerbooks must be manufactured by hippies wearing Tivas. If you could take your powerbook apart, you'd see granola residue.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Hippies wearing Tivos?

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 06:59 (twenty-one years ago)

I meant Tevas. But yeah, "Tivo" is what confused me.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 07:02 (twenty-one years ago)

my gf has some pots and pans that are emblazoned 'made in china [but] designed in the usa'. the brand name is 'geneva'.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 07:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Japanese stylists
French kissers
Australian chefs
English danceclub partners
American dentists
German ...german...Berlin-dwellers? filmmakers maybe (American Friend)
Canadian...http://marryacanadian.com/

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 07:39 (twenty-one years ago)

The Swiss are the the lovers

I was not aware the Swiss had such a poor reputation in the bedroom.

― jaymc (jaymc), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 07:51 (twenty-one years ago)

i just realized i punned the French one. bleh

French smokers.

― Thea (Thea), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 07:57 (twenty-one years ago)

I just have to turn my iBook around to read the small print on the back: 'Designed by Apple in California, assembled in Taiwan'. What that fails to say is that the machine was designed by Englishman Jonathan Ive. So the American input into this 'thing' is basically just the branding. This is increasingly the case for American products, even the most iconic. For instance, Levi-Strauss last year moved the last of their jeans manufacturing operations to Mexico. Now only management, R&D, branding and marketing happen in the US. Now, this is compatible with an American view of metaphysics -- after all, body and soul are easily separated in the western tradition. Even if the 'body' of my jeans is from Mexico, the 'soul' is American. But to those who don't subscribe to such metaphysics, the question has to arise -- are there any really 'American' things left? Are American things dying out, replaced by American ideas? And when you consider that the hamburger was invented by a German, jeans by a frenchman, computers by an Englishman... all that really remains for America is a genius for branding.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Same goes for teh Romans, Dr. Clever

― TOMBOT, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:18 (twenty-one years ago)

haha... yeah, you just realized this, Momus? I don't even *know* anyone who actually *makes* anything.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:23 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick, you're wrong: at Apple, the chips are from Motorola Freescale and the logic board was done at One Infinite Loop. American both.

― suzy (suzy), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:24 (twenty-one years ago)

who makes the bombs?

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:37 (twenty-one years ago)

That's a good fucking point. We make *all* the bombs.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:38 (twenty-one years ago)

you should look to outsource it. sure they could make them cheaper in cambodia.

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:40 (twenty-one years ago)

Scots whiskey. from waaay up the top.

this is a fucking joke, right?

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:41 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost But it's one of our biggest industries! How couls we give that up?

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick, you're wrong: at Apple, the chips are from Motorola Freescale and the logic board was done at One Infinite Loop. American both.

Yes, but I'm saying this is the tendency. Both capital and labour have been internationalised to the extent that it's very hard to talk about the national identity of a product in terms other than rather misty metaphysical ones like 'Well, it has an American soul'.

One of the interesting things about 'soul' is that it's much more negotiable than body. A body is something factual, with a factual origin. A soul can appear, like a ghost, in different forms in different places. It can blend in with its surroundings, as transparent as a ghost. And so American products can be sold in Japan, and their 'soul' can become rather Japanese. American products can seem Japanese in Japan, Chinese in China, German in Germany, and so on. This is an advantage for American products in some ways, but a disadvantage in others. What they gain in universality they lose in specificity. What they gain in sales they lose in sense of self, rootedness. Global capitalism as a commodifiable identity crisis?

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:42 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah. think of the sad bombmakers striking.

xpost

― bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:43 (twenty-one years ago)

France: poets

on and this is balderdash too. the best whiskey and poets/writers are all of irish/british descent.

not a coincidence either.

― darragh.mac (darragh.mac), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 08:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus: your talk of souls turns me off, as it makes me think you're tryiong to turn as ul;timately frivolous but nevertheless concrete discussion into some kinda metaphysical theory-fest. Some things are made in some countries, and some other things are made in other cfountries, and I think we can establish that without debate. And what's more, with jerking off about how smart we are.

To the point: I have a computer monitor labelled "Phillips." I can't help but wonder how alien a word "Phillips" is to all the people who made this monitor possible.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:07 (twenty-one years ago)

But when it comes to an item of any complexity it is very hard to say it was made in one country - designed in one, materials mined in another, different parts fashioned in a few others, assembled in another still, packaged, advertised etc. etc.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Kenan, it's terribly concrete and perfectly germane: today's products are Frankenstein's monsters, and the question is, 'Does Frankenstein have a soul? What passport does he hold?'

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:12 (twenty-one years ago)

(Actually, I meant 'Does Frankenstein's monster have a soul?' But the question about Frankenstein himself is an interesting one, because a man who creates such an identity-confused beast is himself identity-confused. And, since nobody seems to be able to distinguish Dr F from his monster, this confusion then spreads to everyone else.)

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:14 (twenty-one years ago)

(Also, apologies to those annoyed by 'cleverness' in my response the the thread title. I only do it because my parts were manufactured in Scotland. Although assembled in Japan and marketed in Germany and the US.)

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:21 (twenty-one years ago)

today's products are Frankenstein's monsters

The parable of Frankenstein was textually about the evils of the misuse of technology, and subtexturally about a kind of Taoist view that technology was itself the evil, or at least the ambitious tendencies that created it. Still, I have a computer monitor, and I would not give it up. Make of that what you will.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:22 (twenty-one years ago)

i thought frankenstein was about the bogeyman......

― d.arraghmac, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

i.e. -- the point of Frankenstein was hardly that the monster was assembled from parts from other countries.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:38 (twenty-one years ago)

The Frankenstein story is very much about whether a body assembled from different parts can have a soul.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:43 (twenty-one years ago)

No, it's not. It's about whether a man with the hubris to think he can accom[plish such a gruesome thing can actually do any good for the world. He's a scientist, after all. And the whole book -- I mean really, the whole damn book -- is him talking about his horror in his failed at thaty task. So no, it's not about parts equalling souls.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:46 (twenty-one years ago)

his horror in his failed at thaty task

his horror that he failed at that task

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Even those beloved German cars are billed as "German Engineered", since they are mostly assembled abroad (BMWs in Vietnam, Pakistan, etc.)

― Rob Bolton (Rob Bolton), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:51 (twenty-one years ago)

'It was the secrets of heaven and earth that I desired to learn; and whether it was the outward substance of things, or the inner spirit of nature and the mysterious soul of man that occupied me, still my inquiries were directed to the metaphysical, or, in its highest sense, the physical secrets of the world.'

Mary Shelley, 'Frankenstein', Chapter 2

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 09:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I don't feel dissed by that or anything. His process is meant to stand in for standard scientific procedure of the time (and the horror thereof). His driving philosophy is what's really in play.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:00 (twenty-one years ago)

'Frankenstein' is a resonant novel because it's about many things -- hubris, man setting himself up as God, the ethics of technology, and the relationship between body and soul are all in there. Just as they're all in my iBook. But, whatever one may think of Steve Jobs, hubris is much less relevant to this thread than the Frankenstein's monster nature of my computer, and the way jobs are outsourced all over the world. That's why I brought up the Frankenstein metaphor, and I think it's perfectly apt to use it to talk about the 'soul' of products.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Meanwhile I prefer to think of products as not having a metaphysical nature at all. In fact, I think that's a waste of brainspace.

― Kenan (kenan), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Perhaps you prefer to talk about the 'aura' of products? Or just their 'brand image'? Because these are just different terms for the same problem, and if you think they're a waste of brainspace, you must think that 90% of advertising and marketing are somewhat absurdist activities.

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:28 (twenty-one years ago)

it's pretty clear that products don't have a soul, but may be attributed characteristics in design to make them appeal to certain groups and markets. agreed?

and obviously 90% of advertising and marketing are just as you describe them.

― d.arraghmac, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Why are you worried about outsourcing, Momus? Is it really important to you that your ibook come from one country or another? I would have thought you would be post-nationalist. For me the ibook is American, regardless of where it is made, since it's the product of an American company, founded by an American with largely American management, operating under American law, etc. In as much as Frankenstein the novel has a nationality, it is a British, is it not? Regardless of the fact that it was written in Switzerland and is now printed all over the world. I don't buy the brand = soul argument.

― cum in a girl's mouth, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Momus, you're clutching at straws here.

― Andrew (enneff), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:33 (twenty-one years ago)

English Raindrops on French roses and whiskers on Australian kittens;
Bright American copper kettles and warm German woolen mittens;
Brown paper packages from Canada tied up with strings;
These are a few of my favorite things

― Davel (Davel), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I find it annoying that Momus always hijacks threads for his unoriginal sub-Baudrillardian schtick. You already have your livejournal for that!

― Paul Man, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 10:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you related to Paul De Man, Paul Man?

Why are you worried about outsourcing, Momus? Is it really important to you that your ibook come from one country or another? I would have thought you would be post-nationalist.

I'm delighted that my iBook is made in so many different places, and that I'm contributing to several national economies when I buy it. I'm not so much 'post-nationalist' as trying to evolve with nationhood as it evolves. Because I think we're living through a time in which nationhood has changed from something physical to something metaphysical. This is why I talk about it as something akin to 'brand' or 'soul' -- those are somewhat nebulous concepts, and as products and people flow more around the globe, we will see more and more appeal to national identity being something like 'brand' or 'soul'.

I have no idea what Baudrillard says about this, but if he agrees with me he's right!

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 11:01 (twenty-one years ago)

(And when did ILX become a place where you can't be intelligent? Nobody told me. I find this 'take your complicated thoughts away to LiveJournal where they belong' tendency a bit disturbing, quite frankly.)

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(It's a classic British thing, isn't it? BBC 1 has intelligent stuff on it until BBC 2 comes along, and it all migrates there. Then BBC 4 opens up and the intellectual programmes all head off there. Each time with smaller and smaller audiences. So LiveJournal is the BBC 2 to ILX's BBC 1, then? ILX is all lists, deathmatches, pub quizzes, top tens, google doodles and puzzles for you to do at work when the boss isn't looking, right?)

― Momus (Momus), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 11:14 (twenty-one years ago)

For what it's worth Momus, I actually agree with you to some extent. Maybe referring to it as the 'persona' of a product might be better, or the product myth. Either way, people who think they can 'buy American' when purchasing cars, computers etc. are pretty naive.

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

And damn BBC4 for showing all the good documentaries when I can't watch it!

― Kevin Gilchrist (Mr Fusion), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't want to step on any toes here, but i'm pretty sure there are some questions/arguments that can do very well without becoming an intellectual discussion?

as opposed to being intelligent that is. i'm pretty sure most of us can make the distinction for ourselves.

― d.arraghmac, Wednesday, 17 November 2004 13:02 (twenty-one years ago)

american web sites.
japanese porn.
french music.
australian beer.
canadian music.
english beer.
german music and beer.

due to my utter lack of interests, germany wins.

― :| (....), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 13:28 (twenty-one years ago)

attaching things to their nation of origin in order to rank them is (while sometimes fun) rather backwards, isn't it?

STOP DAT

― Freelance Hiveminder (blueski), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 15:36 (twenty-one years ago)

someone has to do it...............

you've all forgotten POLAND.

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 15:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Na Zdravie!!

― Michael White (Hereward), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 15:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Oooh, regarding Scottish things, I think our we make the best sweeties...

― Rumpy Pumpkin (rumpypumpkin), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://www.mcneesofcrieff.co.uk/ images/TABLET1.jpg

― Rumpy Pumpkin (rumpypumpkin), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 17:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Bah humbug. That's why I don't post pictures.

― Rumpy Pumpkin (rumpypumpkin), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

ihttp://sweetiebag.com/.../ Mint%20Humbugs.jpg

― Rumpy Pumpkin (rumpypumpkin), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 17:46 (twenty-one years ago)

This made me dislike French things considerably.

― Laura H. (laurah), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

That site was just what I needed (boost of confidence)!

― Thermo Thinwall (Thermo Thinwall), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 19:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Japan makes the best perverts.

― sugarpants (sugarpants), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Poland was mentioned earlier in the thread.

Japanese porn is crap and I've rarely seen a one of it that wasn't really radically demeaning to women, though I'm sure maybe Momus would like to enlighten me otherwise? I just have an enormous issue with the seeming rape fetish that seems to go on there; OTOH this could just be my friends showing me horrible bullshit anime porn as jokes constantly throughout ages 16-23.

Speaking of Momus, I'd like to add this to the thread, I'd like you all to think about it a bit.

In 1914, once again young boys from the intelligetsia put away their books and notebooks and seized their guns to "save the Motherland." They were treated coolly and with distrust. They replied to this coolness with a song:
We don't need you approbation
Or your hearts, or your tears,
The time when we appealed
To your purses has passed. May a dog fuck you.
In this song there is a dangerous note of contempt, the mentality of people who, by "placing their lives at the stake" for an ideal Poland dreamt up by the bards and conspirators, feel they've earned the right to heap contempt upon the real Poland, the Poland of ordiinary people. This mentality bore fruit in the extreme courage and the magnificent armed achievements of the legions. But it also bore fruit in an utter disregard for the safety of other people and their aspirations. This is why, when we listen to this song today, we hear in it that very disquieting tone in which, a dozen years later, the orders to imrpison the opposition members of parliament in Brzesc were to be issued. One group of legionaries took to persecuting another group.

Regardless of what tomorrow may bring, I feel today that it is my duty to say that the angel who demands heroism not only of himself but of others, who denies the value of compromise, who perceives the world with a Manichean simplicity and despises those who have a different concept of obligations towards others--this angel, loving heaven as he may, has already started on the path that leads to hell.

So really, when you think about this dynamic of ranking countries, I think it'd be worthwhile to think about all of the rest of this, as well.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 23:42 (twenty-one years ago)

(points to whomever calls me out for the blatant rip off)

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Wednesday, 17 November 2004 23:43 (twenty-one years ago)

Someone said American guitars, but there are some fucking unbelievably well-made Japanese guitars from the 70s and 80s.

I'm gonna have to say it's a face-off for stompboxes: Japanese vs. American where American has the advantage early on (60s-early 70s), Japan takes the lead (late 70s-80s) and then almost everything sucks (90s-?).

― martin m. (mushrush), Thursday, 18 November 2004 00:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Japanese animated porn games are possibly worse than the real porn.

― Laura H. (laurah), Thursday, 18 November 2004 02:17 (twenty-one years ago)

hahaha I once knew someone who had one of those, we were all kind of horrified upon discovering it, he swore it was purchased as a "joke".

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 18 November 2004 03:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Japanese porn is horrendous. If you believe that the pornography produced by a particular country provides any insight - however limited - into the preferences or attitudes of its people, then Japan is properly fucked up. There's a huge emphasis on rape and school girls. Unfortunately, these two themes also play out far too often in the crime section of the newspapers.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 18 November 2004 03:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I really find it hilarious when westerners like to get all fucking high-minded about the japanese porn video games and their sex industry in general when we have the goddamn B4ng Bu5 and a whole litany of video games involving killing fucking innocent pedestrians for fun and profit, not to mention beating up prostitutes to get your money back or popular songs about how much fun mouth cumming is for everyone involved. To each his own!

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 18 November 2004 03:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I'd probably find it really disturbing if the dude with the video game was jacking off to Bang Bus or GTA too.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 18 November 2004 03:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Really though what the fuck is with those condiments ending with "-mite?" Horrendous, I don't even WANT to know how THAT plays out in the crime section of the newspapers

― TOMBOT, Thursday, 18 November 2004 04:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Also last I checked no one who gets injured or offed in a video game claims to enjoy it happening to them.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 18 November 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey, I'm all for people enjoying whatever gets them off. It's not a matter of being high-minded or that I feel culturally superior. The simple fact is that the Japanese sex industry is wildly exploitave, especially of South Americans, Southeast Asians and unfortunately children. The United States has placed them on a human trafficking watchlist and researchers have declared Japan to be the largest distributor of child pornography due to notoriously lax laws. I don't care about Bukkake or any of the more exotic fetishes, but the incredible amount of pornography centred around school girls does make me uncomfortable because it too often goes beyond just watching movies. It's okay for grown Japanese men to openly ogle and make comments about schoolgirls on a train, and there is a phenomenon known in Japanese as "Enjo Kosai", or "Compensated Dating" in which men pay schoolgirls for sex. Either in cash or by purchasing them designer goods. That, in my opinion, goes far beyond "to each his own".

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 18 November 2004 04:54 (twenty-one years ago)

I would also point out that "to each his own" also includes the right of "your own" being to say you find something disgusting. No one is talking about banning things or asking people to justify themselves. I don't also see what exactly is being high minded about finding the idea that victims enjoy being victimized (this goes with the underage thing too) reprehensible.

It's hardly exclusive to Japanese pornography, it just seems strikingly more prevalent there. There's not exactly a ton of great hoity toity Merchant Ivory pornography in the world or something, but I think there is a world of difference between the kind of gross ideas behind HORNY XXX SLUTS LOVE TO GOBBLE CUM and what we're talking about here.

And with that, I am done with this thread, I have spent way too long dealing with a couple of really bad associations to not just pretend this doesn't exist now BUT Momus my asking of you to clarify the issue wasn't sarcasm and if you wish to do so with me personally or you have an opinion you'd like to share on the topic, please feel free to email me, I singled you out because you tend to be the first to defend a lot of maligned bits of Japanese culture and there have been several occasions when you've given some good information, so I was truly interested.

Also, the rip was Michnik.

― Allyzay Science Explosion (allyzay), Thursday, 18 November 2004 07:02 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.anniescostumes.com/10606.jpg http://www.anniescostumes.com/10606.jpg http://www.anniescostumes.com/10606.jpg http://www.anniescostumes.com/10606.jpg http://www.anniescostumes.com/10606.jpg http://www.anniescostumes.com/10606.jpg

― Remy (x Jeremy), Thursday, 18 November 2004 07:19 (twenty-one years ago)

"What they gain in universality they lose in specificity. What they gain in sales they lose in sense of self, rootedness. Global capitalism as a commodifiable identity crisis?" (momus)

so much or the pokemon stuff. pokemon was made in japan, but when it was exported in USA and worldwide, the characters were made globally acceptable, erasing all things that americans could percieve as typically japanese. turning the concept of the series more into a winning battle than in collecting. focusing more on the good/evil contrast.

― erik, Thursday, 18 November 2004 11:05 (twenty-one years ago)

one year passes...

Things change.

― Klaus Darko (nordicskilla), Wednesday, 14 December 2005 19:25 (twenty years ago)

I think we can all agree that collectively, the above countries make the best things in the world.

This is just amazingly wrong-headed. No offense intended.

― Aimless (Aimless), Wednesday, 14 December 2005 19:36 (twenty years ago)

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