Lance Armstrong is a God

let the rehabilitation of that great comic genius commence NOW

And Sheryl Crow. Hopefully his reign of terror will end soon.

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(see also Jesse Ventura vs Arnold Schwarzenegger)

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Sheryl Crow prior to her own ride up l'Alpe in June.

The Crow-Williams crap is unfortunate, but sounds like a hell of a lot of people are making unwarranted assumptions about him to justify the hate. Frankly, his dominance doesn´t piss me off anywhere near as much as, say, Sampras´s in tennis.

That's the thing with Lance -- he never fires the first shot in a war of words, but once that first shot is fired, he's relentless.

Although this "no more gifts" thing from yesterday may be an exception -- I still don't know wtf he's talking about.

Lance is pretty dogged if he feels that someone's against him. I guess it's what makes him the competitor that he is, but also something I find really off-putting about him.

It's particularly off-putting that he talked about "no gifts" right after openly admitting that he gave his teammate the go-ahead to try and win the stage.

"I had assumed, because he and Bush were Texans and I’d seen pictures of them laughing and joking in the Oval Office, that Armstrong was a Republican. But he says his politics are “middle to Left”. He is “against mixing up State and Church, not keen on guns, pro women’s right to choose”. And very anti war in Iraq."

Sadly, I made the same assumptions as Alistair Campbell! a mistake i'll try never to repeat...

But, whoever said above that i had negative images of Armstrong cos he came from Texas... NO NO NO. i LOVE Armstrong and the fact that he's disassociated himself from Bush makes me love him all the more...(tho not as much as yesterday's unbelievable sprint finish!).

Also, I've got relatives in Austin and have been there several times and thorougly enjoyed it, so i'm not anti-Texans in general either.

this thread was meant to be Armstrong love, people. Sorry for any confusion...

If he's not making ref. to the Basso stage win, then he must be referring to his decision to chase down Klodi at the line yesterday, that is, not give him the "gift" of breaking away for the stage win without putting up a fight at the end.

The thing is, that was no gift, that was Klodi's fuckup pure and simple. The last few km were ALL Ullrich -- he chased down Landis not once but twice, and then duped the others into thinking he was going to play cat-and-mouse for the last km, which caused everyone to ease up and gave his teammate the oppurtunity to attack. And it was a great attack -- nobody reacted in the least -- but he ran out of gas 10 seconds later, appeared to ease up with about 500 m to go, couldn't finish strong, and checked the wrong blind spot twice looking for someone trying to outsprint him to the line. If Klodi had broken away and won, there's be no talk of gifts, just of great riding by the T-Mobile boys.

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9910-1018310,00.html

That would be particularly tasteless in light of Pantani's death earlier in the year, even though there was no love lost between the two of them after that incident in 2000.

supposedly eddy merckx told lance, after he let pantani take a TdF stage many years ago (which pantani was reportedly offended by BTW), "gifts are for birthdays"
and it has been a syndrome with lance for a long time it's true, he is all about the G.C., and in some ways only about it. merckx and hinault are disappointed by this, the respective cannibal and badger there before him. he is not in the footsteps of lemond and indurain so much as in theirs, style-wise, but eddy and bernard don't seem to understand at all this kind of aw-shucks side, that is in fact more like greg's and miguel's outlooks.
BTW greg lemond though what an asshole, i'm bummed out by him i must say. just like for lance, he used to be a hero to me. but lance is going for that even earlier style full-bore now, and it is fucking awesome.

If Armstrong thought the drunk Germans on l'Alpe were bad, he'll have fun if he ever does the Giro in Simeoni's neighborhood.

While very, very few would have said Armstrong would become a TdF GC dominator, the guy is clearly a bizzare outlier on the physiological curve. Very very few thought he'd ever even race again if he lived.

NOW. I'm no Lance groupie. All this does not mean that he never doped, or that he's not doping. He was rumored to be an hgh user pre-cancer, from what I've heard.

what duke said above; plus, more specifically, that's what hinault said to him at the podium following that stage victory earlier this week. when armstrong said it to reporters that day, he was repeating the words of hinault, who had been chiding armstrong once again, for his history of "giving" stage victories to other riders.

No, of course not. But based on what I knew beforehand - he seemed to be coming from *nowhere* and what I read in the press - made me doubt him. I am still unconvinced even based on what you told me. Anyway sorry. And Scott, feh off, I didn't mean that at all! :-)

Even better, then!

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No, no, no apology needed for sure. I was just sayin.

Speedy, while you're in Boise, I was marshalling the Mt. Evans Hill Climb. It was 45 degrees and drizzly at my checkpoint at 8000 ft, I'm really glad I didn't have to go to the top at 14,100 ft. I'm guessing it had to be in the 20's up there. Oh, and Vaughters was riding in his old CA gear--in the Citizens category. I cheered him, he laughed.

And the only way to be sure that someone is doping is if they a) test positive, or b) admit it. Period. Speculation is a useless excercise . Once you start speculating, then everyone starts looking guilty which again gets you nowhere.

This highly focused training means, among other things 1) Lance has to be in peak form for only three weeks of the year, 2) since he's not competing in many other races, then he's got more time to train on the actual TdF route. It's no secret that Lance knows the routes (and the climbs in particular), far better than any of his competitors. But there's no way you can race a full season and still find time to do this -- as part of his training, Lance and his team ride the entire route at least once or twice, and the main climbs even more than that.

my husband joked that the main reason lance wants to win: his new girlfriend. hah!

http://www.cyclingnews.com/photos/2004/tour04/stage19/live/jans.jpg

*yawns*

The letter is more a defense of Lemond, but the attack on Ferrari, as I noted above, reflects strongly on Armstrong.

I'm not sure I understand yr question, but...

Big Mig? Or alleged EPO poster child "up 'til now I've had debilitating wheat allergies that affected my equilibrium, but watch me go now!" Gianni Bugno?

Armstrong is known as a hardcore my way/highway person. I don't know if he's brought his personal beefs into his business side, but I'm not clear on how much differentiation there is there. The first personal beef I think of besides Armstrong is Livingston.

mig but take your pick. i saw bugno that day on alpe d'huez too. in a world championship jersey i believe.

"I'm not clear on how much differentiation there is there"

between a racecourse and running/dealing with a company? really?

lemond is way more emotional, less steely a person. not to mention more wily a racer than he ever was dominating. he could not have handled what lance had to last year in the tour IMHO. would have thrown his bike or something i bet.
and what of hinault's take as i said in an earlier post? he's got no real allegiance to anybody and def. knows lemond up close and he has made a call, from what liggett and sherwen said the other day, that greg's jealous.
and greg on ESPN said "if he's clean, greatest comeback, if he's not, greatest fraud" well duh, then why even say anything?
...or bother to qualify at all if you basically say in the next breath he ADMITTED using substances during the phone call to him? something's fishy about it.

I may be misunderstanding, or not making my (perhaps needlessly-nuanced) position clear, but I don't think we're really arguing too much here. I deplored Lemond's comments about LA. I totally dug LA running down Kloeden like a dog, and LA's professionalism and desire are fucking great. Even if he were to be found doping, I'd actually still think he's among the greatest ever. I just don't assume he's clean, and I am concerned about the Simeoni thing yesterday. Simeoni's comments were under oath I believe. Was he supposed to perjure himself to protect the peloton? LA is saying he lied under oath to impugn it? Or just Ferrari? Complicated.

If pro cycling were revealed to be a drugging clown show, it really wouldn't ruin my day, I'd rather ride my own bike and think about trying to get enough training time in to race 'cross this year.

Speaking of prizes, Floyd Landis (USPS) has been awarded a special prize by comedian Robin Williams, who is a good fried of Lance Armstrong and the team. After his efforts in the mountains, and particularly stage 17, Williams nominated Landis the "baddest mofo of the mountains" and gave him a studly gold ring.

Shouldn't he be off making Patch Adams II: Electric Boogaloo or something?

PARIS (AP) _ Lance Armstrong rode into history Sunday by winning
the Tour de France for a record sixth time, an achievement that
confirmed the victory-hungry cancer survivor as one of the greatest
sportsmen of all time.

i hereby declare you to be awesome

love,

g dubbs

Bush spent the morning clearing brush at his ranch here, but
came into his house about the time his fellow Texan crossed the
finish line and watched TV coverage after the race's finish, she
said.

He was under oath, and accusing someone of purjury would be a serious charge. I think Armstrong's upset about the way Simeoni framed himself. His testimony was essentially "yeah, I did drugs, but I was just following orders". Thus, he's transfering some of the blame from himself to his doctors, trainers, and team management. Thus, the doping issue acquires a lot more breadth than just a few guys doping on their own without instruction from anybody, and that's what Lance feels is so damaging to cycling.

Eurosport somehow missed out on the Simeoni attacks at the start. That explains why the commentators weren't flipping out like I was when he did it again halfway through the stage.

According to a Domina Vacanze team source, Simeoni learned on Sunday that magistrates presiding over the trial of Armstrong’s performance consultant, Michele Ferrari, may wish to question the American about his mid-race altercation with Simeoni on Friday’s 18th stage. Legal officials in Florence apparently suspect that Armstrong may have been guilty of attempting to influence a witness.

Full-on respect to Hunter. I mostly mountain bike, but I've done a handful of cyclocross races over the past couple of years. Bike riding at its most primeval, all that up-bank down-ditch madness, real heart-rate through the roof, sliding around in shite, chunder through your nose, 'what the hell am I doing this for', cold, wet Sunday morning in Hell stuff. Fucking batshit stupid, but it's great. Woohoo!

It's weird how ubiquitous cross bikes are now.

How soon do we see where the route will be next year, seeing as we have free accomodation over there it'd be silly not to go see if it's not near where we stay

um.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-ends-fight-against-doping-charges-losing-his-7-tour-de-france-titles.html?hp

LOL

Haw.

jan aint gonna win squat. he'll be surpassed by ivan basso and the new french generation once lance quits..

― Jay G (jaybob79), Friday, 23 July 2004 00:13 (8 years ago)

lol, 'new french generation'

does anyone think there's any merit to the rumor that the drugs caused his cancer?

you couldn't really say 'caused it' but if he was mucking around with HGH and testosterone and the like, that stuff isn't exactly going to calm down and aggressive tumor.

Possible. High testosterone levels increase the risk of testicular cancer. Anabolics increase IGF-1, and IGF-1 increases cancer risk. Even Epo is implicated in cancer proliferation.

the World Anti-Doping Code

This is like some Marvel Comics thing

Will they also be taking away all the times he got to sleep with Sheryl Crow?

It is shameful that there is still stigma over enhancing the capabilities of the human body. However, enhancement for personal achievement is an individualist crime and must be punished accordingly.

They're going to have trouble going down the list and finding a retroactive winner who didn't dope.

They aren't going to bother trying to find a retroactive winner who didn't dope. They only wanted Lance.

http://www.rapha.cc/content/uploads/ullrich-beer12.jpg

FOUR TIME TOUR DE FRANCE WINNER

if it gets ferrari and bruyneel out of the sport, it'll have been worth it.

http://www.bicycling.com/print/67431

good interview with JV on doping stuff

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/david-walsh-on-armstrong-and-usadas-charges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christophe_Bassons

Bassons became known during the 1998 doping Festina scandal, when the discovery of a carload of drugs being driven to the team's riders in the Tour de France led to evidence that doping was widespread in the team. In September 1998, the newspaper France Soir published statements made to the police. Two convicted riders, Armin Meier and Christophe Moreau, said that Bassons was the only rider on the team not taking drugs.[2]

Jean-Luc Gatellier said in L'Équipe:

It's true he's not one of them and he hasn't come out of the same mould. It's true that he refused to 'load the canon' (the pretty expression used by those who take EPO) these past years, it's true that Christophe Bassons doesn't belong to the family of cheats and the corrupted.[3]

Moreau's and Meier's court statement brought attention to a rider who had never acquired it through his racing. He wrote in Vélo, a French monthly, that riders who spoke out against quarterly medical checks imposed by the sports ministry after the Festina trial were hypocrites. He said: "That makes me laugh when I hear they're asking for changes to the tests. The truth, however, is that they are obliged to change their behaviour. They talk about 'two-speed cycling'[4] But me, for three years, I've been the second speed. They have ruined three years of my life as a racer and I never said anything."[5]

The interest that the Festina trial brought to him led to an invitation to write a column during the 1999 Tour for Le Parisien, a newspaper in the same corporate group as the Tour de France itself. Ian Austen wrote in Procycling:

On the whole his columns were largely innocuous if entertaining looks at life in the peloton. If anything, he sometimes went out of his way to dispel doping rumours. After the stage into Blois, which passed at record average speed, Bassons warned readers: 'Don't get any ideas about the record speed. With a wind like we had, it's normal to ride this fast.' But two columns stuck out. After Lance Armstrong showed that not only had he recovered from cancer, he'd risen to the top of the pack, Bassons wrote that his performances had 'shocked' the peloton.

Bassons said Armstrong rode up alongside on the Alpe d'Huez stage to tell him "it was a mistake to speak out the way I do and he asked why I was doing it. I told him that I'm thinking of the next generation of riders. Then he said 'Why don't you leave, then?'"[6] Armstrong confirmed the story. On the main evening news on TF1, a national television station, Armstrong said: "His accusations aren't good for cycling, for his team, for me, for anybody. If he thinks cycling works like that, he's wrong and he would be better off going home."[7][8][9][10]

The badger typically circumspect

Another French cycling celebrity, Bernard Hinault, gave his very pesonal view: "I don't f***ing care. It's his problem not mine. It's a problem that should have been solved 10 or 15 years ago and that wasn't."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/french-cycling-reacts-armstrong-to-lose-tour-titles

it's amazing to me that anyone could like this dude, he's like barry bonds if barry bonds were actually somehow douchier, at least BB went out there and was an honest to goodness upfront asshole and not acting the role of a messiah while pulling off cartel intimidation shit behind the scenes.

haha Bernard!

what is this anyway? "I didnt do it but I am not going to fight the charges" ??

Kind of a big deal because he was trying to become the best IronMan triathlete in the world and he won't be able to compete in IronMan events anymore. Other than that, no fucks given.

Nike are standing by him but I wonder if anyone is going to try and reclaim prize money or sponsorship; then it would go to court.

Nike also stands by the sad dead sweatshop workers

Lance Armstrong, Louis Armstrong, Stretch Armstrong--all dopers.

http://www.bicycling.com/print/67431

good interview with JV on doping stuff

this was really good, thanks

http://inrng.com/2012/08/lance-armstrong-quits/

That Jonathan Vaughters interview was great. Thanks.

Nike are standing by him but I wonder if anyone is going to try and reclaim prize money or sponsorship; then it would go to court.

― American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed),

the inrng article says:

If USADA rules there is a doping offence, imposes a lifetime ban and says he should be stripped of his wins then this applies worldwide. It is then for the UCI, as cycling’s governing body, to await the decision and issue the formal notice stripping Armstrong of his wins which it must do to comply with the WADA Code. All prize monies must be repaid too.

They can't go after sponsorships, but whatever thousands/millions he won as prize money he has to repay. Damn.

"But I snorted it all up my nose oh wait."

I wonder what % of his income went to doping & trying to beat doping tests?

I'm surprised this hasn't been used more:

https://twitter.com/#!/search/realtime/%23quitstrong

There's still the SCA Promotions case

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12122/SCA-Promotions-will-monitor-USADA-case-against-ArmstrongUS-Postal-Service.aspx

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have never followed Lance and his "sport" (a race where you get off the bike a few times to sleep, riiiight) but anything to stop singling out baseball is fine.

fuck baseball

yeah I'm fine if regular idiots stop following it and join yr club

have never followed Lance and his "sport" (a race where you get off the bike a few times to sleep, riiiight) but anything to stop singling out baseball is fine.

― Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Friday, August 24, 2012 10:54 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

huge lol at the idea that baseball has been "singled out" as the dopingest sport that ever doped when a) no one outside of america gives a shit and b) the peloton was doing PEDs when you were still a regularly-aged person. the notion that baseball is the locus of bad behavior is exclusively american; cycling has had a publicly bad rep w/r/t doping for at least 20 years

I speak of America, man, furrin sportz make my eyes glaze over.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

1886!

glaze over, like an idiot

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a regularly-aged person

idk obviously i have no interest in cycling but.....presumably this dude was quite good as riding bicycles anyway? so that he would still have had at least some success if he didn't use drugs? it's an interesting example of unbridled venality

In 1886 an English cyclist is popularly reputed to have died after drinking a blend of cocaine, caffeine and strychnine, supposedly in the Bordeaux–Paris race.

which one (1) of these ingredients might not have been well chosen

Surprised that LeMond has had the good sense to stay quiet on this.

But the Raiders have a new dude on defense called HeiNACHO which I mean, how can that not be good :D

Th

idk obviously i have no interest in cycling but.....presumably this dude was quite good as riding bicycles anyway? so that he would still have had at least some success if he didn't use drugs? it's an interesting example of unbridled venality

He probably never wins a Tour, which would mean he'd be basically anonymous in America.

oh i'm pretty sure he's just savoring it xp

idk obviously i have no interest in cycling but.....presumably this dude was quite good as riding bicycles anyway? so that he would still have had at least some success if he didn't use drugs?

I have no interest in or knowledge of the sport (or any for that matter) and my attitude to doping has always been that it's just where modern science has taken us and it's dumb to ban it. But that interview linked upthread by haitch was very interesting and informative. About halfway through he explains why legalized doping is a bad idea and why having all of the athletes doping doesn't actually create a level playing field.

If they couldn't produce a bad test in 2009 then it's either not possible or Armstrong was clean. Because he was tested constantly that year--both at home, while training, on the racecourse, both announced and unannounced. And they still have those blood samples. He was tested far more than any other cyclist that year.

And if he was clean that year, then his racing was astounding for someone his age.

yeah sadly this is going to demolish Armstong's reputation, but doping or no, doing all this while passing a zillion drug tests is still pretty impressive

that JV interview is fantastic

there is nothing sad and everything hilarious about lance armstrong being stripped of 7 tour titles imo.

Yup.

i don't know how i'll feel when my ipod tells me "i'm lance armstrong and that was your longest run yet!". ha!

Surprised that LeMond has had the good sense to stay quiet on this.

― hot slag (lukas), Friday, 24 August 2012 11:19 (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Cathy LeMond Tweeted one word: "Finally"

yeah sadly this is going to demolish Armstong's reputation, but doping or no, doing all this while passing a zillion drug tests is still pretty impressive

― frogbs, Friday, 24 August 2012 11:39 (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't know why it is sad that this will destroy lance's reputation, he was cheat in an era of cheats and his rubber band racket cancer "charity" is a self aggrandising sham. I am astounded that Nike haven't dropped his sorry arse but they say his brand is bigger than cycling.

Betsy Andreu was much less circumspect

http://www.lemonde.fr/sport/article/2012/08/24/betsy-andreu-lance-armstrong-a-ramene-le-sport-a-l-epoque-de-la-rda_1751099_3242.html

"yeah I'm fine if regular idiots stop following it and join yr club"

if regular idiots stopped following baseball there wouldn't be a baseball. or a football. or a basketball. or a hockey.

I don't know why it is sad that this will destroy lance's reputation, he was cheat in an era of cheats and his rubber band racket cancer "charity" is a self aggrandising sham. I am astounded that Nike haven't dropped his sorry arse but they say his brand is bigger than cycling.

yeah and i'm pretty sure as long as there are ways to cheat there will be ways to get around the testing somehow. and i feel like he's been using the charity as a reputation shield in recent years.

"I am astounded that Nike haven't dropped his sorry arse "

this will happen within a couple of weeks, i imagine?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-retains-support-of-nike-and-other-companies.html

yeah i dunno -- i've a sense that stripping him many years later when he hasn't admitted anything won't sway the non-cycling public all that much.

if ppl liked him (like andy pettitte) they'll continue to; if ppl hated him (like barry bonds) they'll continue to.

i imagine that most americans are like, dude won a really hard foreign commie sport a bunch of times where everyone else was doping too -- big deal

fuck him if he can't be bothered to show up in court anymore, not the type of petulant quitter move i expect from a man who can beat testicle cancer and the alps five times.

well, he'll always have LIVESTRONG and anna's teat to comfort himself on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGtfpzT4Lqw

snap

rip juan pelota

http://cavalierfc.tumblr.com/post/30172302298/its-not-about-the-bike

Good history in podcast form

http://velocastcc.squarespace.com/race-radio/2012/8/27/lance-armstrong-special-edition.html

why do people hate him again? what's this 'cartel' ish

read that link, it's right there

(a race where you get off the bike a few times to sleep, riiiight)

― Pangborn to be Wilde (Dr Morbius), Friday, August 24, 2012 11:54 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i know right, you dont see baseball players all sleeping between games and shit

Thanks for that Balls, Wheels, Doping article.

I am astounded that Nike haven't dropped his sorry arse but they say his brand is bigger than cycling.

They still sponsor Tiger Woods? Nike doesn't have a problem with sketchy people if they think they're still capable of generating them some cash.

i bood lance when he ran the ny marathon B-)

Nike doesn't have a problem with sketchy people if they think they're still capable of generating them some cash.

^substitute any corporation for Nike above.

i think nike ENJOYS promoting reviled/disgraced mega-athletes

they prob consider it an engaging challenge for their marketing apparatus

like whats exactly the right tone for his comeback ad

GOD JUICED

juiced god

i think nike ENJOYS promoting reviled/disgraced mega-athletes

I agree, I think that's part of their branding -- I don't know if that's supposed to make them look "edgier" or what.

God Does Play Juice

#Nike #Juice

black and white footage, lance riding his bike on a drizzly day through (let's say) san francisco, getting a lot of evil eyes from people. no VO, just echo-laden snippets of commenters talking about him being a fraud, how he could never have won the tour w/o cheating, etc. lance turns a corner and before him is california street, leading up to nob hill. one of the steepest streets in the city. lance grits his teeth and begins riding up as the voices all blur together and people walking past stop and stare. as he gets higher, people begin to cheer. eventually he gets to the top and turns around to look back at the city for a moment before riding on. "WINNERS NEVER QUIT"

black

nike swirl

he wore those black pants to conceal shamefyull buttock sweat!

soundtrack would be clams casino motivation beat

thank you juiced god

beginning of this thread is p comic in hindsight. nathalie was otm.

http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/08/but-everybodys-doing-it-lance-armstrong-and-the-philosophy-of-making-bad-decisions/261669/

I really wanted to continue my boycott of Nike after their support of Paterno and Vick, but goddamn i tried out one of their 3-Woods and all of my principles vanished. Shitty shoes though, i'll still stay away from those.

Dont really give a shit about Armstrong (everybody in that sport seems to be juicing, so is it really cheating) or Woods (that shit's between him and his ex).

black and white footage, lance riding his bike on a drizzly day through (let's say) san francisco, getting a lot of evil eyes from people. no VO, just echo-laden snippets of commenters talking about him being a fraud, how he could never have won the tour w/o cheating, etc. lance turns a corner and before him is california street, leading up to nob hill. one of the steepest streets in the city. lance grits his teeth and begins riding up as the voices all blur together and people walking past stop and stare. as he gets higher, people begin to cheer. eventually he gets to the top and turns around to look back at the city for a moment before riding on. "WINNERS NEVER QUIT"

black

nike swirl

― omar little, Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:48 PM (47 minutes ago)

There once existed footage of Lance with semi-liquid diarrhea* streaming out of his shorts at the 2001 San Francisco Gran Prix while he was getting dropped on the Fillmore St. climb before abandoning the race, but after a couple quasi-SFW searches, I don't think it's up anymore.

*G-I distress is an unfortunate byproduct of blood doping.

To be fair, GI distress is also an unfortunate byproduct of intense physical exertion.

Surprised that LeMond has had the good sense to stay quiet on this.

I think he did give an opinion some time ago but was threatened by Armstrong to shut up?

Anyway I never liked the guy so quite happy he got his comeuppance (?).

Yeah I think if Armstrong was a mere cheater it would be different but for years he's been on that "snitches get stitches" vendetta

^^^p much

also his whole carefully crafted heroic persona is so repulsive

My neighbour (who shares my hatred of all things Lance) said that he didn't have the build to be a climber, yet he managed to be the fastest climber during one particular tour. Can anyone say this is true (or false)?

Also, I hate this whole "everyone cheats" defense line.

And yes the whole heroic persona is indeed vomit inducing.

"everyone cheats" = why the int'l pro level of the sport fucking sucks

I agree. It sucks the joy out of watching it tbh. But I still hate when people use it as an excuse (for Lance or any other top cyclist).

lance armstrong was in montreal yesterday, should i have said something?

Also, I hate this whole "everyone cheats" defense line.

^it doesnt bother me.

yeah, as a sports fan it doesn't really bother me that the athletes take performance enhancing drugs.

as a drug fan however

Me either. I want to see super athletes that have amazing skills that mere mortals can only dream about. The problem with doping is that everyone should get to do it.

i've kinda moved into not caring about it since I admitted to myself that I straight up loved the excitement and anticipation of Barry Bonds at bats. Even more so when he would only get pitched to about once a game. The year the Giants went to the WS towards the end of his career, that whole post-season with Bonds was great.

it doesn't really bother me that much anymore esp in baseball bcuz there's not much evidence that it helps in a significant way but that doesn't change that lance armstrong is historic douche

I mean cheating has always been part of sports and I think actually one of the more interesting aspects of professional sports. There's this risk assessment of evaluating the odds of being caught versus potential gains if not caught that's really interesting to think about.

not really

"Me either. I want to see super athletes that have amazing skills that mere mortals can only dream about. The problem with doping is that everyone should get to do it."

Uh no that's not the "only problem" with doping. As the interview above pointed out the real problem is that athletic competition becomes about anatomic brinkmanship, who is more willing to do a potentially damaging/deadly thing to do their body in order to succeed. That's not why most non-sadists watch sports.

^^

i can't speak to cycling really bcuz it's not something i've ever followed BUT if steroids in baseball (for instance) turned every player that used roids into a hall of famer than it would be a pretty stupid thing. but that doesn't happen, which in turn makes using steroids themselves stupid.

This interview btw: http://www.bicycling.com/print/67431

the relevant section

If you have one rider who has small muscles and one who has very big muscles, the rider with big muscles can produce a lot of torque and power, but he can’t sustain it because the muscles don’t get enough oxygen. The guy with small muscles, he can’t produce as much torque but he can ride a long time. If EPO is detectable and steroids aren’t, the little skinny guy might make greater gains by doping than the big muscular guy. But if EPO is undetectable and steroids are, the little guy is screwed. So whatever is going on, you never end up where it’s a level playing field—it’s just whatever your physiology happens to be adapted to. So you make everything legal; you can do whatever. There’s only so many drugs invented, so the winner is whose physiology is most adaptable to having 50 things in them. It never ends up that who the best athlete is wins if you just let everyone do it.

Second, what about people who, even if it is legal, have health or moral concerns about it. So you say, ‘Hey guys, this is legal.’ And someone asks, “Wait, what are the long-term health consequences?’ ‘Well you could grow a horn out of your head, but if you want to do this, you have to dope.’ So you eliminate a lot of talented athletes who don’t want to do that. Because if you do make everything legal, believe me, some people are going to push things way beyond where they are now. So some people will say no to what is essentially suicide. So is the winner then the best athlete? No, it’s the guy who’s willing to risk his health more than anyone else.

what drugs are these guys taking? i still can't do my commute in under 30 minutes

Me either. I want to see super athletes that have amazing skills that mere mortals can only dream about. The problem with doping is that everyone should get to do it.

― Jeff, Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:00 AM (46 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agree

ahahaha of course

actually reminds me of the deal with helmets in hockey. people would rather wear them, but if others aren't wearing them, you're at a disadvantage because they have better peripheral vision. so everyone stops wearing them and is worse off. by mandating helmets, the NHL achieved what the players actually wanted but couldn't manage themselves, solving a prisoners dilemma problem.

i can't speak to cycling really bcuz it's not something i've ever followed BUT if steroids in baseball (for instance) turned every player that used roids into a hall of famer than it would be a pretty stupid thing. but that doesn't happen, which in turn makes using steroids themselves stupid.

― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, August 30, 2012 11:07 AM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

dont really want to get into this but why do people always use this so obviously fallacious argument, steroids dont have to turn every player into a hall of famer to improve performance, or is it just a coincidence that all the doods who smashed roger maris single season hr record were juicing, i mean being strong helps w/baseball and other sport fyi, steroids enhance athletic performance, plz proceed w/yr argument from that assumption

there are also plenty of players who have roided until their balls were the size of pennies & it never amounted to shit

are u srsly making this argument because it is epically dumb

Phil Liggett claiming "agents from a particular agency" tried to bribe witnesses to testify against Lance.
http://inrng.com/2012/08/can-liggett-save-armstrong/
D. Millar - "Everybody should watch the @PhilLiggett interview. For me he is not the "Voice of Cycling"."

lol
Ned Boulting ‏@nedboulting
For the record, @PhilLiggett and I have very different views. I don't agree with him about Lance Armstrong. And it's probably mutual.

Don't think this has been posted yet:
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/08/the-armstrong-fallout-thoughts-and.html

AUSTIN, Texas -- Tyler Hamilton says Lance Armstrong gave him an illegal blood booster at his house before the 1999 Tour de France and the two teammates compared notes on using performance-enhancing drugs as far back as 1998.

Hamilton makes the allegations in his book, "The Secret Race. Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France, Doping, Cover-ups and Winning at All Costs," set to be published Sept. 5. The Associated Press purchased a copy Thursday. Armstrong agent Bill Stapleton did not immediately respond to a request for comment

Hamilton and Armstrong rode together on the U.S. Postal Service team.

Armstrong has long denied doping but last week chose not to fight drug charges made by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency. USADA has erased 14 years of Armstrong's competitive results, including his seven Tour de France titles.

key from NBS' link

Let me now turn my attention to four of the common questions and retorts that seem to have arisen:

1. "Lance passed 500 tests. He must be innocent"

This is straight from the press release, because it's been Armstrong's most used retort to the doping question. Two things:

First, there is no way he was tested 500 times. DimSpace has compiled a record of all the possible tests Armstrong may have been subjected to, with over-estimates, and it comes to 236. So there's more than a little hype in that number that started at 400, then hit 500, and just like that fish your uncle caught on his summer vacation in 1997 grew in size with every story-telling, ended up around the 600 mark.

Nevertheless, 236 is an impressive number to pass, so how is it possible? Well, here's a list of names - Marion Jones, Tim Montgomery, Dwain Chambers, Ivan Basso, Jan Ullrich, Valverde. That's just six names of athletes who also doped for very long periods without failing a test. Some were caught eventually (Chambers & Montgomery) because a test was developed for a drug called THG based on a tip-off. It then emerged that Chambers had doped for years, with everything, avoiding detection. Ullrich went down because of good old-fashioned investigative work that discovered blood bags in a clinic. Marion Jones was never caught. The reality is that testing is limited, especially when it happens in-competition. That's why people say that if you fail a drug test in competition, you have failed an IQ test - it's so simple to manipulate the timing and dosage of your drug use so that you are not tested when you compete.

And remember, the effect of doping lasts long after the drug is gone. You can take EPO, get the benefit, and compete without the drug in the system. Micro-dosing allows you to take the drug very close to the event without it being detectable. In fact, you can dope 12 hours from your race, and as long as you get dosage right, you'll pass doping controls. The authorities have to be very lucky to test you while you have the drug in your body.

The point is, passing the drug controls is not really all that difficult.

i think for me the issue is that at the top level of a lot of sports it becomes this elaborate intersection of sports, technology and sports medicine that i find distasteful. and that's true in sports i enjoy watching, like say, basketball or bmx racing but in pro tour cycling it's just this really egregious circus where it might as well be NASCAR with human engines

I like the intersection of sports, medecine and technology. It only really bothers me that pushed to the extreme, this kind of stuff leads to early death, which is not good.

I'd love it if there were medical analysts on tv explaining why some guy lost a bike race because he didn't take the right combination of drugs to win that particular race.

i can't speak to cycling really bcuz it's not something i've ever followed BUT if steroids in baseball (for instance) turned every player that used roids into a hall of famer than it would be a pretty stupid thing. but that doesn't happen, which in turn makes using steroids themselves stupid.

― young money color me badd (J0rdan S.), Thursday, 30 August 2012 15:07 (Yesterday) Permalink

baseball is a wacky sport whose greatest player was a fat dude who played drunk

http://trackandfield.about.com/od/worldrecords/tp/Women-s-world-records.htm

hmmmm what happened, golden age of talent I guess

baseball is a wacky sport whose greatest player was a fat dude who played drunk

― Matt Armstrong, Thursday, August 30, 2012 10:06 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

actually baseballs greatest player was a guy who did roids

liggett (and sherwen) gets livestrong money to speak at events. hardly a disinterested party in this.

haha lag i'm glad you said something because j0rdan's post really bugged me but i didn't wanna get into it

Michael Ashenden's response to Phil Ligget

http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/filthy-business-indeed

Excellent ^

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/biking/road-biking/My-Life-With-Lance-Armstrong.html

^^^
"MY LIFE WITH LANCE ARMSTRONG
I was Lance’s personal assistant for two years, during the height of his racing career. Do I think he cheated? Yep. But my real problem is something that diehard fans seem unable to grasp: the vengeful tactics he uses against people who tell the truth about him, on and off the bike."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/tyler-hamiltons-book-reveals-in-depth-doping-network#null

he really is a truly singular piece of shit

with a singular testicle

http://www.theonion.com/articles/havent-we-all-done-steroids-in-a-way,29317/

lol

Lance Armstrong ‏@lancearmstrong
Remind me not to stay out til 2am w/ @kidrock again. Hurtin' for certain today.

Oopsy:

http://deadspin.com/5950655/here-is-the-usadas-1000+page-report-about-lance-armstrong-doping

tl,dr

brb

too long, doped and rode

At 41, who's the healthiest looking dope head?
http://www.radaronline.com/sites/radaronline.com/files/photos/image_20121005/armstrong.jpghttp://us.acidcow.com/pics/20100811/iggy_pop_12.jpg

A bad day for jaybob79

Nike are choosing to celebrate this with the release of a 15 years of livestrong range. I sincerely hope that if trek doesn't drop lance's sorry arse they'll never sell another Madone in Europe.

The older guys, especially hincapie, can go fuck themselves but Zabriskie's story is pretty heartbreaking, pressured into doping after loosing his father to drug abuse. He still owns it though.

EPO all in my veins,
Lately things don't seem the same,
Acting funny, don't know why,
'Scuse me while I pass the guy

Sang by zabriskie in the team bus

Dave Z's song is part of the 'things like are kinda lol but mostly sad' canon.

I love this story:

According to two witnesses, the US Postal team doctor Pedro Celaya (who is charged by Usada and will face a hearing later this year) was thrown into a panic at the 1998 Tour de France by the Festina scandal, in which the French team was caught red-handed with a vast medicine cabinet of illegal drugs. Celaya flushed tens of thousands of dollars' worth of drugs down the toilet – though this would not have been much help if the French police had raided the team, because the toilet was in a camper van.

How Armstrong Beat Cycling’s Drug Tests

The most basic technique outlined in the report, based on affidavits from some of Armstrong’s former teammates, was simply running away or hiding.

ha

http://www.sebastianbraff.com/2012/07/dear-lance-armstrong.html

The simplest was pretending not to be home when the testers arrived. As long as they were in the city they had reported as their locations, the riders found they would not receive a warning for not answering the door.

man this dude never jumped out of space, fuck him

I don't want to see you lose your seven titles only to have them go to the second place doper who wasn't caught

otm, could i give two shits about this, no cos fuck cycling

The second place doper was caught, btw (and the third, and the fourth...)

i know but only strengthens the point rly

give em to meee

Phil Liggett really is a twat:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/despite-usadas-evidence-liggett-remains-armstrongs-supporter
The best bit: "I had an email from an eminent scientist from the US yesterday. An SMS actually. It said if Lance Armstrong had taken the drugs outlined by USADA he’d have been dead ten years ago. He’s an eminent scientist and a very intelligent man. I don’t know his name, the SMS came from a secondary person.”

"Well, Paul, I don't know why they call Lance a drug cheat...I mean, he only took on two needles of EPO over L'Alpe d'Huez...I got a text that said so..."

i foresee enforced retirement in phil's future

classic phil, misidentifying a text message as an email as it rejoins the leading group on the slopes of l'alpe d'huez

can wiggins somehow be implicated? mainly cos he's such a "mod" twat.

i foresee enforced retirement in phil's future

― single pun theory (haitch), Tuesday, 16 October 2012 08:17 (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Unfortunately NBC employ him and given how the whole affair is going down in the states I don't think his senile ramblings are going to get him sacked (I mean, they haven't to date)

that liggett stuff is kinda rambling and weird. like he kinda knows he's wrong but can't actually say it.

xpost

Him and Lance are deeply invested in Paul Sherwen's gold mine in South Africa (an actual gold mine that gold comes out of)

huh

Paul Sherwen ‏@PaulSherwen
Just read Tyler Hamilton's book The Secret Race in 2 days on the plane, now I have the background to my next 202 pages of reading

Paul Sherwen ‏@PaulSherwen
Ploughing through the USADA report, after Hamilton book last week, I am not sure if this is Al Capone or Alien I am reading

Not a single fuck given about his doping.

can wiggins somehow be implicated? mainly cos he's such a "mod" twat.

― Know how Roo feel (LocalGarda), Tuesday, October 16, 2012 1:25 PM (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Implicated, no. There's a heap of suspicion around the whole Sky set-up, including Wiggo, but the only direct links to the doping scandals are Rogers, Yates and Dr. Leinders, anyway if you fancy playing piley-ons just check out the Clinic threads on the Cycling Weekly forum.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/347276/the-big-interview-paul-sherwen.html

You live in Uganda where you have interests in a gold mine, and you balance that with your commentating work, how does the year pan out for you?
PS: I start off by going to Australia in January to commentate on the Tour Down Under with Phil, and in February we do the Tour of California. Then every weekend from March until June I travel from Uganda to New York to work on a programme called Cyclisme Sunday for the Versus network. We review the week and commentate on whatever race is on that Sunday.

I start out on Friday and go from Entebbe to Amsterdam, then Amsterdam to New York. I do the return trip every Monday and I’m at my desk on Tuesday morning. As well as the mining business I have another business that supplies logistics to the oil industry here. Oil has been discovered in Uganda and they expect to be pumping it out in 2009. After that it’s the Tour de France.

See also:

http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnectionsV2.pdf

dont tell me these things, i love those dudes low key banter

Wiggins is more guilty of lol boring race strategy rather than doping (except the sideburns, they've been boosted in some way).

don't care about paul sherwen, but it bums me out to learn bad things about phil liggett. was I so naive?

cant believe buffoony mcclownshow is a rudderless idiot. paul sherwen looks like a motherfucker with some dark secrets, etc.

If anyone likes the warm fuzzy feel of wool over their eyes, I for one 'd be more than happy to take the dope talk to another thread?

When I said Cycling Weekly upthread I meant Cycling NEWS, argh.

hahaha cranky frankie

http://redkiteprayer.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Frankie-537x400.jpg

pelkey:

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/10/the-explainer-im-shocked-shocked-i-say/

lol, the photo

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13076/Taylor-Phinney-Interview-Getting-the-pill-culture-out-of-the-sport.aspx

taylor seems like one of the good guys - hope he's not all talk.

He's stepping down as chairman of livestrong, AP says

Nike dropped him too.

Trek's stony silence becoming even more embarrassing as are the actions of their local congressman.

another god with feet of clay

Lance Armstrong has done more for cancer survivors than any other person/organiziation, not only the 'sexy' cancers, but all cancers. I will continue to wear my Livestrong gear, covering any Nike swoosh, yea for yellow! Nike I am disappointed with your decision.

I, for one, never met a spreading, deadly cancerous tumor that I didn't find sexy.

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/athletes/lance-armstrong/Its-Not-About-the-Lab-Rats.html?page=all

Armstrong's connection to the cause of fighting cancer was a symbiotic one. He gained a lot from it, just as they gained from it, too.

His celebrity assisted in fundraising and publicity for charitable organizations, but his association with those organizations and the cause of fighting cancer in turn increased his celebrity and bolstered his public image, allowing him to earn greater endorsements and attract sponsors. His public image also helped to protect his ass while all the doping rumors swirled around him.

not so sure his rep with the wider public will suffer all that much tbh

He has certainly achieved the status of being known far, far beyond his sport, and so this scandal, because it is in a purely sports context, may not touch his reputation very much.

Are you guys kidding? LiveStrong and Nike dropped him. What positive press is he going to get from this point on?

"This is Phil Liggett...LEAVE LANCE ALONE!"

He's been turned away from running a couple big city marathons, though I guess he's still doing triathlons here and there.

yeah i think the floor of support is broken until he somehow earns redemption. in usa, that means some time out of the headlines, or a kardashian.

Trek have dropped him now, according to Walsh on twitter

his 2nd comeback is going to be even more insufferable, isn't it

3rd you mean.

all lance has to do to stay out of the headlines tho is just not do sports

if he lays low, he'll probably be forgotten by the american public, not vilified. ppl will remember that LA was a doper and maybe got his titles taken away but they're not gonna spit on the ground or anything

esp since livestrong inc probably won't implode---half his name is gonna be out there, vaguely beneficent, and his rep will at the very least be kept from going straight to the basement. plus the whole scandal has made joe q public dimly aware of cycling's doping history, and i'll bet that's enough to make a lot of ppl just shrug, "yeah but i guess that was just what everybody did/does". and up until this point, all the popular coverage has painted the story as Lance The Doper, not Lance The Sociopathic Control-Freak Who Was Not Just A Doper But A Ruthless Motherfucking Doper.

will say tho that i'd kinda love it if he went full Maradona, we don't really have one of those over here yet

a couple of years in the wilderness then a mea culpa with accompanying tell-all bestseller, leaving the way open for your new Governor of Texas *shudders*

"if he lays low, he'll probably be forgotten by the american public, not vilified. ppl will remember that LA was a doper and maybe got his titles taken away but they're not gonna spit on the ground or anything"

Well sure I mean he's not A-Rod, but I still think his overall reputation is not going to be very good. Mostly forgotten and connected to sordid drug scandals is a far cry from all conquering cancer vanquishing sports hero.

He seems to only want to 'do sports' because it's what he's good at so I don't know if he's going to lay low. He'll never hold high office.

his whole reputation, so much more than pretty much any other athlete, rested on him being this admirable superhero who overcame struggles that made him sympathetic etc., i think this is going to hurt the way the general public looks at him way more, than, say, all those baseball players with asterisks on their stats.

hes cooked, theres no grounds for a comeback, he doesnt do the stuff that he was famous for anymore

UCI decision on Monday, let's see how the fuckers spin it.

http://inevitablebacklash.com/media/careerplot_tourwinners.jpg

Nope, nothing suspicious here.

http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/savage/Cycling/LookingAtTheData/AIC.html

oops
http://www.phys.washington.edu/users/savage/Cycling/LookingAtTheData/figures/careerplotALLMEANS.jpg

Anquetil was also a known doper.

True. At least he was honest about it.

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/39875782/

Louis Armstrong was God. Lance is just a very annoying athlete who cheated and got caught.

stretch Armstrong is god, stretchy god

Henry Armstrong still the best Armstrong athlete

That average speed plot is misleading, it really represents an increase in the average speed of the entire peleton (most of whom were taking drugs, of course). To single out Lance's contributions we can compare average speeds and times on major climbs (which will bring us to more or less the same conclusions).

It's cynical to think he relied on Livestrong as some kind of cover so he could dope at will. Tour wins or not, he still fought and beat cancer and genuinely wants to help others do the same (and he started his cancer foundation before his comeback). He was nearly invincible because, like Steve Madden wrote in that SOE piece, he was like a mafia figure in cycling for a long time and it still would have taken years to bring him down whether Livestrong was around or not. The only comparable American sports star who dominated his sport/league like that would be Michael Jordan, and nobody ever had any illusions about Jordan being a decent guy just because he was a winner. It would have been just as impossible to bring Jordan down in the 80's and 90's as it was to bring Lance down now, and Jordan didn't have to found a charity to get to that level.

(and yeah, people *could* have gone after Jordan in the 90's for his shady business dealings and gambling problems, but nobody would because he was JORDAN and even today people are reluctant to mention it)

well also Jordan's particular character flaws didn't diminish his athletic accomplishments (unless his gambling had taken a Pete Rose turn or something)

theres an old conspiracy theory that MJ's first 'retirement' (when he quit to play baseball) was a secret suspension for gambling

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/21/sports/how-armstrongs-wall-fell-one-rider-at-a-time.html?pagewanted=all

I'm taking too much delight in the fall of Lance Armstrong! Living in Austin for 12 years and watching him spearhead the smoking ban on bars which he would never frequent or even care about, I've hated him for years. He's an asshole and deserves all of this.

that does seem to be one of the main takeaways

like i always suspected he was a fraudulent dick but now its p well confirmed

smoking bans in bars are good tho

Yeah that's not exactly a great example of dickishness.

Regardless if business owners ought to allow their customers to smoke in their establishments, Lance Armstrong acted with such a pompous air with the whole smoking ban. It was a 'cleaning up' Austin, giving the people clean air, behind this anti-cancer/healthy lifestyle that has nothing to do with why people go to bars. There already was a smoking ban in effect that you couldn't smoke in front of business doors or in restaurants. Bars where the last places you could smoke and even some bars wouldn't allow you to smoke. Many bars in austin lost customers, dingy bars that had been around for years, the sort of places that couldn't afford to build outside patios or didn't have the space, places lance armstrong would have never gone to or cared about. And now this comes out it just stinks of hypocrisy that he supposedly was trying to clean up.

All non-smokers act with a pompous air about smoking bans, but bars live on despite people smoking outside.

I complain bitterly about bar smoking bans when they went into effect in CA, but even within the year I had to acknowledge they were effective and when I actually quit it made it easier to do so.

i must admit that when the ban went into effect it seemed ridiculous but pretty soon i 100% approved.

Yeah, spend some time overseas and you're instantly reminded of how shitty smoking bars used to be.

remember when it was imminent in ny all the smokers were talking tuff like they were gonna stay home and smoke to their hearts content, w/in like 1 month i didnt know anyone who didnt approve

basically no one likes 2nd hand smoke

xp you're right, it's almost as if the athlete who got paid to have excellent lungs and who did actually have cancer would want to be seen publicly supporting a ban on a bad habit that is terrible for you.

also fwiw being in favor of smoking bans isn't "trying to clean up hypocrisy," there's nothing hypocritical about allowing ppl to smoke in bars, what are you on about.

he's an asshole for cheating and maybe being a sociopath---getting mad at him for something that should have happened anyway is a little weird. but hey keep austin etc

Yeah I like smoke free bars. I also like the fact Lance Armstrong was caught engaging in very health damaging drug use after being a champion of healthy living, after leaving his wife who supported him through his cancer, after leaving another woman while she battled cancer.

none of that happened in a smoking bar

also dogg i hate to tell you but taking PEDs isn't exactly as "health damaging" as smoking

roids grow tumors

awkward!

anyway its not unreasonable to begrudge the manner someone goes abt doing a thing even if you approve of the thing

Doesn't really have anything to do with Lance Armstrong, but I've worked around construction workers who take similar drugs and they can be downright scary. I watch a guy stab another guy in a roid rage because he refused to let him pay for his drink, too many scary incidents of construction workers on steroids that I stopped associating with anyone from work I didn't know.

It's interesting because taking EPO probably increased Lance's chance of survival / life expectancy while he was being treated for cancer - I assume he was anyway - but did continuing on it through his career then have harmful health effects for him, or might it at some point?

i was thinking the same thing, wouldn't years of doping use (especially testosteron) make you some kind of 'junkie'. (note that many cyclists, and i assume Lance as well, are on a helluva lot of painkillers, caffein and sleeping pills as well, which are obviously addictive as well)

no

that is not "the same thing" as what I was thinking, or asked, just ftr

isnt he on drugs
― anthony, Friday, July 23, 2004 8:53 AM (8 years ago)

I'm not generally a big fan of cynicism, but rereading the start of this thread followed by antony's contribution is funny.

anthony otm

I have some things to add here but I gotta think them out a bit. I'll be back.
― Speedy (Speedy Gonzalas), Sunday, July 25, 2004

Landis, Hamilton, or Hincapie?

haha

the thing with EPO was always overdoing it and thickening the blood to the point that riders were riding rollers in their hotel rooms at night to avoid a heart attack. but blood levels revert to normal in due course after you stop taking it. i'm no expert in blood so i don't know if that could cause long-term stress on the system - we'll get our answer if '90s-00s riders start dropping like flies within a short period of each other.

can imagine the use of growth hormones and steroids would increase future cancer risk due to over-working those areas over a long period, though. cortisone certainly has had nasty effects on footballers and the like who have trouble walking after having too many painkilling shots over their careers.

*UCI CONFIRMS LANCE ARMSTRONG STRIPPED OF TITLES
*UCI BANS LANCE ARMSTRONG FROM CYCLING

hope he has a car

*UCI DENIES LANCE ARMSTRONG USE OF CAR
*UCI KNOWS WHERE LANCE ARMSTRONG LIVES
*UCI COMPLETES WORLD TAKEOVER
*UCI IS COMING FOR YOU NEXT
*SUBMIT
*NOW

He's a bad man, a very bad man

*UCI IS COMING FOR YOU NEXT
This is where the problems started really, innit

its kind of amazing that out of all the sports cycling is the most gangster

CNN Opinion:

It's Time to Allow Doping in Sport

Agree?

http://thumbnails.hulu.com/179/50031179/142463_512x288_generated.jpg

(xp) No.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/blogs/robert-millar/the-bare-minimum

lol i had the video link of that sketch all queued up before i saw your post (xpost)

I don't agree either fwiw, but thought it was worth throwing out there for debate. I don't want drug/steroid experimentation becoming a necessary part of winning athletic competitions.

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2012/10/23/the-apology-lance-armstrong-will-never-give/

http://www.siab.org.au/58dgETdx002ag/ArmstrongTriangle.pdf

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/how-dopers-stole-the-best-years-of-my-career-20121026-28aif.html

Brad McGee has a fairly well thought out whinge

Lance Armstrong is a God Fraud

a fairly well thought out whinge
New board description.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U

A recent Cycle Sport magazine (from before the USADA evidence was passed to the UCI and the public) referenced that, saying something like "What am I on? I'm on my bike busting my ass six hours a day. That and a cocktail of EPO, cortisone, human growth hormone and testosterone."

oooh you meant on like as in drugs, in that case everything

Lance Armstrong ‏@lancearmstrong
Alive and well in Hawaii.

you know, on the OTHER hand, couldn't he get a good job with the u.s. army? dude made himself one of the strongest fastest humans ever via chemistry. you would think there would be a supersoldier upside to all of this. i could see him training navy seals. it doesn't matter what you feed soldiers, right?

Lance Armstrong will admit to doping during his famed cycling career in an upcoming interview with Oprah Winfrey, according to USA Today Sports.

looooooooooooooooooool
http://www.oddschecker.com/cycling/specials/lance-armstrong/first-cliche

Buzz Bissinger sucks shit, but better late than never:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/01/14/buzz-bissinger-i-was-deluded-to-believe-lance-armstrong-when-he-denied-doping.html

i wonder if he's recanted months of calling ppl pussies on twitter who questioned his original stupid newsweek article?

it would be funny if he went back to each person he tweeted one by one and apologized, like a 12 stepper

LOL

"All professional athletes are narcissists;"

*closes article*

Think "We Don't Need Another Hero" should he embedded into the thread at this point

Simpler times:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2012/11/lance_armstrong_jerseys_h_2012.jpg

Armstrong "did not come clean in the manner in I expected" according to Oprah.

Let me guess he was pressured into it by some v bad men.

ugh that second 'in' shouldn't be there.

Probably one of these options:

-- I won lots of times without doping.
-- It was part of my cancer treatment, I didn't have any choice.
-- I did it to protect the other guys on the team/my sponsors/whoever.
-- I did way less of it than anyone else.
-- I didn't know what was in there until it was too late.

i hope she presses him on the his pathological need to to absolutely destroy anyone along the way who implicated him in doping. That bothers me more than the actual doping tbh although I can see how one may follow from the other.

I (semi-)joked for years that America might forgive Barry Bonds if he cried in front of Oprah. So I was close.

I have no moral consistency cos I unreservedly love Barry Bonds.

oh me too

I don't give a damn about Lance, cuz multi-day bike race as a huge sporting event, lol

sports, laugh out loud

“I felt he was thorough. He was serious. He certainly prepared himself for this moment. I would say he met the moment. At the end of it, we both were pretty exhausted.”

Insert comment here.

I am not sure that comments were what were inserted there

Forceful interjections.

leaked footage of Oprah's first question:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4I4OCgVAv8

"I've only got one left, but it's huge!"

http://www.trbimg.com/img-50f57cd9/turbine/lat-oprah-wre0007739743-20130115/600

South Park to thread

Reuters flash: IOC member says cycling could be dropped from Olympics following Armstrong revelations.

I don't know why cyclists all need to race at the same time. Just set up some cameras and have them do the distance whenever they want. This applies to a bunch of other Olympic sports too.

UCI is really cocking this up, some national federations (UK, Italy, NED as of this week) are so far ahead of the UCI on anti-doping. I would be sad but unsurprised if cycling got the boot from the IOC.

McQuaid and Verbruggen Out.

I can understand the love - esp from Americans - but to be honest how can you be blind to his obv drug intake? Sure, it's *legal* but before his cancer treatment (which is epo-like in the rise of red blood cells and thus is a *positive influence*) he was a nobody! Never won a THING and now suddenly he's winning SIX tours?!? It's unfair in my opinion, not fair competition.

― jesus nathalie (nathalie), Friday, July 23, 2004 8:01 AM (8 years ago)

http://img.gawkerassets.com/img/18blnesnzaijsjpg/original.jpg

fwiw americans were blind to his drug intake because they dont follow or understand cycling

is that a shop? Because that pic rules.

hah its real

what he did to other cyclists is unconscionable, like if barry bonds and roger clemens were beloved by everyone in the press and public but behind the scenes bullied and marginalized clean baseball players into retiring and being persona non grata.

yeah thats unquestionably the worst part, although it wasnt just other cyclists he bullied

Bully Lance is definitely worse than cheater Lance.

a friend read tyler hamiltons autobio and he said theres a story in there of tyler and lance training when a car cuts them off so lance takes a short cut stops in front of the car pulls the driver out and beats him up, just a real mean bastard this guy

mcgwire is still a lovable goofball ever after roiding, even bonds was just kind of a hilarious douchebag (didn't he have some amazing thousand dollar throne recliner seat that took up a big corner of the giants' locker room?), but lance was basically a gangster in yellow spandex and sheryl crow dangling off one of his ropey EPO trackmarked arms.

the best was when gary sheffield had beef w bonds because he stole his personal chef

lmao my favorite part of that story was how bonds hired the chef and then later called gary and was like 'huh, why isn't that guy working for you anymore? what happened there?' meanwhile in the background gary could probably hear the sizzle of a stir fry someone was cooking up for barry four ft away.

'oh you want beef? I got this great chef you can come over and have some of mine'

lmao my favorite part of that story was how bonds hired the chef and then later called gary and was like 'huh, why isn't that guy working for you anymore? what happened there?' meanwhile in the background gary could probably hear the sizzle of a stir fry someone was cooking up for barry four ft away.

That is great. That's how trolling is done.

THAT PHOTO

why are oprah and lance talking in front of a lotion table

the cream, the clear, etc

room temperate tap water for me, with a straw. oprah? the same? very good. the same for oprah, please. and, mary? *grabs assistant's wrist, twists it almost imperceptibly* no condensation on the glasses this time, okay?

*smiles, mops brow*

Can I just say

There's a reason why I resisted wearing one of those stupid yellow bracelets in the chemo room? That whole LIVESTRONG thing just rubbed me the wrong way - the way Armstrong was praised for LIVING STRONG and BEATING CANCER, just like it was another Tour de France race. The whole campaign seemed like another example of being STRONG ENOUGH to say NO to DEATH.

When none of that has anything to do with whether you succumb to a disease or not. I do know that Armstrong enjoyed a degree of health care not available to many, many other sufferers of cancer, just like he had some extra medical help in winning those bicycle races. I would feel like a schmuck right now had I held my fist in the air, little rubber band with his name on it dangling from my wrist. It's another example of holding a parade for somebody who was already living on a float.

Someone will argue that at least, in the end, he raised awareness of cancer. You know, cancer, that obscure c-list disease that only people with hazel eyes and left hands get. If anything, he raised the hopes of some that turned out to be artificial, at best.

So at long last, I can feel comfortable about saying Fuck This Guy without getting pelted with a bunch of little lemon powerbars.

https://sphotos-b.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn1/734176_10151247284605745_1101608017_n.jpg

xpost

more likely to be Lance's own brand of really terrible Stroopwaffles

i heckled lance at the nyc marathon, thats right everyone, im working on picking out the color for my own bracelets

brown wd be nice

lag∞n's bracelets will read: BEAT THE DEVIL

http://i.imgur.com/Yv743.jpg

monster imo

a friend read tyler hamiltons autobio and he said theres a story in there of tyler and lance training when a car cuts them off so lance takes a short cut stops in front of the car pulls the driver out and beats him up, just a real mean bastard this guy

Yeah, I got the Hamilton book for Xmas. Lance Armstrong is undeniably a cunt, but to be honest I sympathize with him in that particular incident.

http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance-armstrong-admits-to-using-performanceenhanci,30912/

xxx-post

THAT IS OUTRAGEOUS

"self-righteous egomaniac"? I dunno Onion, that's giving him a lot of credit, especially when "sociopath" is just one word.

Lance Armstrong is a Dog, one you do not trust

Cartoon where Lance Armstrong and Eric Clapton are both claiming to be God(s) and then Sheryl Crow is making a cute smirk like "oh brother, these two guys..." in the next panel

i wonder if he's recanted months of calling ppl pussies on twitter who questioned his original stupid newsweek article?

http://cantstopthebleeding.com/wordpress/img/2012/08/Screen-Shot-2012-08-27-at-1.24.55-PM.png

Okay - who is watching the Oprah interview?

i'm already bored

wow the show is really called "Oprah's Next Chapter"

the size of the own logo is hilarious

it's dull, he's smug, already used the "everybody was doing it" line. I'll just leave it in the background and shake my head occasionally.

the fact that they stretched this into 2.5 hrs of content is the biggest travesty of all

someone tell me when he flies into a roid rage

Richard Moore ‏@richardmoore73

Trending topics in UK: #BBCLance, #Oprah, #Lance, #EPO and #JEDWARDmissMUCH

omg this is the most boring thing i've ever watched

i've turned on drumline

Bec ‏@Brocklesnitch

I hope Lance Armstrong cries and then Oprah softly licks all of his tears from his face to help her do some more time in her workout later

Well he's still lying.

He's obviously protecting people (that lied for him under oath) and denying any recent wrongdoing that is still within the statute of limitations.

He's only admitting enough to try to gain some sponsorship back and to get some of his supporters back.

His mind is so evil and calculating that he'll believe only what he wants to... It's hard to say what's going to happen to him next.

BUT...

If he really wanted to reverse the damage done to the support he could provide intel to USADA/WADA connecting his management, his financiers to the top of the UCI, all the while fixing the races, and probably the biggest kicker is how his financiers bankrolled the Amgen IPO which possibly led to a highly illegal team sponsorship for Amgen's branded EPO.

http://i.imgur.com/yuysz.jpg

@pbump: FYI, Lance Armstong actually just tried to rationalize attempts to destroy a woman's reputation by noting that he didn't call her fat.

"If there was a truth and reconciliation commission - and I can't call for that - and I'm invited I'll be first man through the door."

ball of steel

thread title needs a change, maybe just had "in the Nietzschean sense" or something i dunno

This is the woman who is not Fat. 1000000000x better human being than Lance

http://www.cnn.com/video/?hpt=hp_t1#/video/us/2013/01/18/ac-armstrong-andreu-reacts-to-intv.cnn

RIP Lance, heaven needed a really shit reason for having seven really boring Tours in a row.

Anyway, I'm off to see what L'Equipe has to say about this, I bet it will be quite reasoned.

can we change thread title to "Lance Armstrong is a Golden God"

There was a perfectly good I hate Lance Armstrong. thread we could have used for this.

xp how about 'Lance Armstrong has a Golden Arm'?

guys, thread title is perfect

http://www.uk-muscle.co.uk/steroid-testosterone-information/172626-performance-enhancing-drugs-professional-sports-long-interview.html

very revealing

I have expected him to start laying down plastic sheets on Oprah's set and start lecturing her about Huey Lewis

LOL otm

re: moullet's post, have long said they should just legalise everything

an oft mentioned awful idea that would ensure victors would be those most willing to risk their lives via medical experimentation, not to mention the vast majority of fans dont want to see that shit in the first place and the whole thing becomes kinda moot w/o fans

what a lot of people don't realize about PEDs is that they affect different people in widely different ways.

in the case of endurance sports, EPO can only help some people slightly, and others immensely.

this is why when LA talks about how the era when he won the tours was "an even playing field", it's 100% bullshit.

If they legalize everything, I expect to see surgically-created human-animal hybrids before 2020.

as the link says, it's not necessarily that life-threatening if done *well*

the main issue with it would be that of access, and consequent unfairness when the bigger nations won the arms-race to develop the most effective chemicals, although extremely talented individuals from poorer nations will always find sponsorship

i'd foresee a breakaway 'clean' movement, and YOU, THE PEOPLE would choose which to follow, if either

that said, extend this to other sports and i begin to feel a trifle repulsed, so perhaps these are just my dismissive thoughts about athletics being projected

aimless, that would be amazing. see the human cheetah! only 7 farthings a view! for a fortnight only!

this is why when LA talks about how the era when he won the tours was "an even playing field", it's 100% bullshit.

bingo, but on the spectrum of "reprehensible things Lance Armstrong said during the Oprah interview" I don't think it places that high, he really came off badly in so many ways

Imago - aside from everything else where would the money come from? What brands would want to be associated with an openly 'dirty' cycling competition?

well, that's where a 'clean' breakaway would form, with far more stringent testing

dunno, this narrative needs some work

But surely there would be more money in the 'clean' version so you would just get people spending big money to come up with ways to beat the tests/bully people into silence and win that one as there would be greater rewards.

And then it'll be won a bunch of times by some guy called Bance Harmstong do u see

maybe we shouldn't look up to sportspeople so much as paragons of human achievement or virtue, but as entertainers

idk this kinda kills me to write as I would like to believe in corinthian values, level playing-fields and the like

team sports don't bring out the cynic in me nearly so much - cycling and athletics are rigged games trying their damnedest to put on an outward show of cleanness and it's a shame because they can be extremely good fun to watch - they can carry with them the catharsis of sublime victory - but beneath it all is the drugs narrative and it puts me off

The PED testing done today, while not perfect, is incredibly more advanced than it was even say like 4 years ago... particularly in the chemical analysis regarding steroids, blood/oxygen-boosters, blood transfusions.

Hormone testing is much more sophisticated, but a lot of the masking agents are now easier to detect (FSchleck for example).

strange guy http://gawker.com/5977073/presenting-the-most-awkward-moment-from-lance-armstrongs-oprah-interview-his-failed-fat-joke

A smirk smeared across his face, Armstrong wistfully recalls how he called Besty "crazy" and "a bitch."

Then, for one horrible moment, you can and watch Lance sit back "read the room."

Time for a little comedy.

"I did call her crazy….I did. I did. I think she'd be okay with me saying this, but…I'm gonna take the liberty to say it. [When we spoke on the phone recently,] I said 'Listen, I called you ‘crazy,' I called you ‘a bitch.' I called you all these things…but I never called you ‘fat.'"

Then, Armstrong pauses for laughter.

He pauses a little longer for laughter.

He waits and waits for the laughter to come, while the camera cuts to a brilliant shot of Oprah blinking at him, her eyelids heavy under the weight of gravitas.

"'Cause…" he begins. Maybe Oprah didn't get the joke? Maybe if he explains the joke it will become funny and he and Oprah will laugh and laugh and she'll scrap the whole interview and take him to OS-TRAIL-YAAAAA instead?

"…She thought I said ‘You are a fat, crazy bitch,'" he flails, reaching out for a lifesaver. Unfortunately Oprah's soul has already left her body; she floats above the room and watches him die.

"…And I said," he repeats "‘Betsy…I never said you were fat.'"

Okay, Oprah's done. She moves on.

u_u

making a fat joke to oprah is just...alien behavior.

these are the the things that make me feel okay for disliking him all these years. douche

He called her fat and ugly for the record.

espn is really burying this story

at least on their website. 8th story down on the sidebar, below alvin gentry getting canned and tiger missing the cut.

lance armstrong on oprah: sort of like watching a play about the crucifixion?

but actor jesus reaaaally sucks

http://gawker.com/5977456/australian-library-moves-lance-armstrongs-books-to-the-fiction-section

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/21/australian-library-lance-armstrong-fiction

True Crime surely?

http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/21/us/actually-that-lance-armstrong-library-thing-was-real-after-all-man-this-is-confusing/index.html?hpt=us_c2

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/41480107464

http://playtrue.wada-ama.org/news/statement-from-wada-president-john-fahey-in-response-to-uci-press-release-of-january-28-2013/

Sack Fat Pat

I hope everyone is aware of the mascot the World Road Championships organising comittee in tuscany chose this year. Very Appropriate

http://cycling-passion.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/UCI-Road-World-Championships-Toscana-Tuscany-2013-Symbol-Pinocchio-300x300.jpg

that's perfect

yeah, that's amazing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOxQ6aEWNJU

^^ that is not what it looks like. Watch out for the bit where his eyes flash and his wheels catch fire...

He's back!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4q2QsqatfLA

Jesus H.

http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-fc/drums.gif

Bill Brock, Betsy Andreu and Greg & Kathy LeMond talk about doping http://new.livestream.com/ut-comm/events/2050748

(It starts at about 40:00)