When and why did it stop being ok to wash your body with a bar of soap?

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i mean these showers gels are basically just liquid soap, right? and its much less handy than a bar of soap so how come everyone uses bottles of shower gel these days?

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:08 (twenty-two years ago)

PUBES

― bill stevens (bscrubbins), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Lock thread.

― luna (luna.c), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

get with it grampa! progress is progress and never the twain shall meet! do you want some oats for the goat you rode in on!? am-scray!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:11 (twenty-two years ago)

yes when sexual organs were invented

― Patrick Kinghorn, Friday, 21 May 2004 23:14 (twenty-two years ago)

bar soap gets slimy and scummy-looking once it's wet, then when it dries it develops a nasty crust.

― lauren (laurenp), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I use both bar soap and body wash. Double duty.

― mandee, Friday, 21 May 2004 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

some bar soap will simply fall apart and turn crumbly as well, anyou might as well be washing with a bar of tofu.

also, the potential for shared bar nastiness is ever-present.

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:20 (twenty-two years ago)

however I use a bar because I take it to my room every night and stash it under my pillow (sleep, gentle Irish Spring, sleep...)

― Gear! (Gear!), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:21 (twenty-two years ago)

depends on the soap. I've showered at people's house where the bar soap was as you described, but I never have that problem.

bars all the way, yo. fuck washing a gel.

xpost dude soap can't get dirty!! you are all insane.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I have always preferred bar soaps for the shower. Liquid soap I prefer for washing my hands. Why this bias I know not.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:23 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm the exact opposite of ned

― robin (robin), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

with regard to this issue anyway

― robin (robin), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i was gonna post a seinfeld line about soap being self cleaning but then i realised it was a friends line and theres no way im quoting friends on here.

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:27 (twenty-two years ago)

soap can't get dirty!! you are all insane

Actually that isnt true. It breeds hideous amounts of germs when it sits idle in the warm hunidity of a bathroom. Soap is not an antiseptic, its just... soap. And it can indeed breed germs.

Having said that I use bar soap but a) I refuse to share it with anyone and b) I give it a good rinse with hot water each time before I use it which probably sounds mental but hey, I never get sick or anything.

― Trayce (trayce), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, bars of shampoo. WTF?

― Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:33 (twenty-two years ago)

okay but do you eat soap? do you shove it in open wounds? I figure that giving it a little rinse off is sufficient to quell any germophobic worries.

― oops (Oops), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:38 (twenty-two years ago)

you guys are losing loofahs and shit? oh lord.

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:39 (twenty-two years ago)

but shit makes me skin look positively radiant!

― oops (Oops), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:41 (twenty-two years ago)

uhhh, "usingloofahs"

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:50 (twenty-two years ago)

heh

― jed_ (jed), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:53 (twenty-two years ago)

bar soap gets slimy and scummy-looking once it's wet, then when it dries it develops a nasty crust.

-- lauren (jaguarrid...), May 22nd, 2004

Sadly, I read this as 'nasty cunt'.

― N. (nickdastoor), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:56 (twenty-two years ago)

now wash your eyes out with soap nick

― cutty (mcutt), Friday, 21 May 2004 23:58 (twenty-two years ago)

ew. that's gross! so are loofahs, and those big poofy net ball things that come with girly brands of shower gel like caress. talk about building up germs...

― lauren (laurenp), Saturday, 22 May 2004 00:29 (twenty-two years ago)

I have one of those netty things, I just use it to clean the bath! Heh.

― Trayce (trayce), Saturday, 22 May 2004 00:56 (twenty-two years ago)

The soap manufacturers all want you to use the shower gels, man.

― christhamrin (christhamrin), Saturday, 22 May 2004 05:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Bar soap in the shower, because shower gel doesn't feel like it's doing anything. It gets all slippery and slimy, and when it washes off I don't feel clean.

Liquid soap for washing hands, because bar soap always flies across the bathroom when I try to pick it up.

Those netty things are stupid. They do nothing.

― You're the Wish You Are I Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Saturday, 22 May 2004 05:20 (twenty-two years ago)

For real. If youre tactile-defensive like me, liquid soap makes for a maddening, unquenching cleansing experience. Like shower caps - fuck that I wanna feel that hotness on my BRAAAAAAAINS.

― LC, Saturday, 22 May 2004 06:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Soap can dry your skin a lot.

― caitlin (caitlin), Saturday, 22 May 2004 09:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Unlike Dove, which has 1/4 moisturising cream.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 22 May 2004 09:49 (twenty-two years ago)

That always confused me. I thought they included a particular type of cream called "one quarter".

― caitlin (caitlin), Saturday, 22 May 2004 09:51 (twenty-two years ago)

Dove smells cheap soapy ranko. And it's just soap with moisturiser added, yeah? That smacks of don't piss on my and tell me it's raining. Get a soap-free facewash in the first place.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I use swaRFEGA

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

I MEAn just when I've got oily hands

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:22 (twenty-two years ago)

you could feasibly use the same soap for washing your hands and your body in the shower. having shower gel makes you buy two products. see also: shower gel / shampoo.

― don (don), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:25 (twenty-two years ago)

Is there any truth to the idea that white people don't use washcloths?

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I use one.

― N. (nickdastoor), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:28 (twenty-two years ago)

I use bricks.

― don (don), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Yeah, I use MO grade glasspaper. (this is a lie. I use a washcloth)

(true story. Our washcloths get washed very frequently, some people I flatshared w/, i left washcloth w/ when I moved out. s.th. like 8ys later, they were still using it, and it was all slimy and didn't look like it had been cleaned since then ew ew ew

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Saturday, 22 May 2004 11:38 (twenty-two years ago)

Why not blame Morrissey?

― El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Saturday, 22 May 2004 12:10 (twenty-two years ago)

liquid soap is an absolute bizarre thing. why does it exist? ho is it better than normal? i stuggle to find justification for its existence. therefore, for the shower, i require: 1 bar of soap. shampoo i also go for , although as ed says (anbd it was he that brought me back to this soap-centric philosophy), it is not really necessary either. Shower gel, i see now, is an irrevelance.

― ambrose (ambrose), Saturday, 22 May 2004 12:33 (twenty-two years ago)

liquid soap's dominance over solid bars of soap must surely be due to the dominance of the shower over the bath. More ppl have showers now than baths, so more ppl use liquid soap. Bars of soap are a real inconvenience in a shower, particularly if you drop them on the bottom of the shower then fall over them. Of course in the seventies they dealt with this problem by having Soap on a Rope.

― MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 22 May 2004 16:57 (twenty-two years ago)

Better than washing your bar with a body of soap.

― Skottie, Saturday, 22 May 2004 16:59 (twenty-two years ago)

i haven't used a washcloth since i was a kid.

Those netty things are stupid. They do nothing.

exfoliate? a estholigist (sp? you know skin person) friend of mine with extraordinarily smooth gorgeous skin recommened I always use these. gentle daily exfoliation.

lauren, how do you slough?

total tangent but there's a bar here (where my guy's playing tonight) called the Bar of S0ap, cause there's a laundromat in the back. get it? huh huh. except everyone calls it the Bar of c0ke since that's why everyone really goes there.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Badedas shower gel is lurvely. They do not make Badedas soap, I don't think.

― C J (C J), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:07 (twenty-two years ago)

Has anyone here ever liked the smell of certain soaps that they contemplated eating them?

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes. But the one time I got soap in my mouth as a kid persuaded me never to eat the butterscotch cleansing bar.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I am NOT Raph Wiggum.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

a kid at school who swore actually was made to wash his mouth out with soap by the teacher. This Wouldn't Be Allowed These Days.

― MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:42 (twenty-two years ago)

No, they'd make him do it with Original Mint Source Tea Tree & Mint Body Wash.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

And then he'd have to give Tombot a blowjob and Tombot would flee.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 22 May 2004 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

You are all freeeks. Bar soap leaves SCUM. Scum on you and scum on your bathtub. Liquid is superior because it rinses cleaner - and that's the entire point of soap to begin with, yeah?

― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Bar soap leaves SCUM. Scum on you and scum on your bathtub.

Am I correct in assuming that people think bar-soap users are the same as people who wash dishes in the UK, ie they don't actually rinse?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:39 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh they rinse - it's just a futile exercise. Therefore they are fools. Muhahaa. eh.

― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Kim, this is dependent on where you live. Soft water areas with low amounts of CaCo₃ in the water will not have the SCUM problem.

― MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I DON'T WANT NO SCRUBS.

― Barima (Barima), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:48 (twenty-two years ago)

You just want to be scrubbed.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:49 (twenty-two years ago)

I take no chances with SCUM.

― Kim (Kim), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:52 (twenty-two years ago)

lauren, how do you slough?

i use an exfoliating scrub a few times a week.

― lauren (laurenp), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:57 (twenty-two years ago)

come friendly bars and fall on slough.

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 22 May 2004 18:59 (twenty-two years ago)

You just want to be scrubbed.

With girls on top.

― Barima (Barima), Saturday, 22 May 2004 19:02 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm glad we had this conversation.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 May 2004 19:04 (twenty-two years ago)

I wish Stevem was here. He would've got the (non) joke.

― Barima (Barima), Saturday, 22 May 2004 19:16 (twenty-two years ago)

I got it too, dammit!

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 May 2004 19:28 (twenty-two years ago)

Sorry, Encino Man.

― Crickets Dance On Tequila Booty (Barima), Saturday, 22 May 2004 19:34 (twenty-two years ago)

Oot oot.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 22 May 2004 19:37 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.luxbeauty.com/shopBlissLabs/bliscrb.gif

― lauren (laurenp), Saturday, 22 May 2004 20:00 (twenty-two years ago)

*cue De La Soul quotes*

― Crickets Dance On Tequila Booty (Barima), Saturday, 22 May 2004 20:02 (twenty-two years ago)

"Having said that I use bar soap but a) I refuse to share it with anyone and b) I give it a good rinse with hot water each time before I use it which probably sounds mental but hey, I never get sick or anything. "

me too!

― A Nairn (moretap), Saturday, 22 May 2004 20:36 (twenty-two years ago)

those of you who use liquid soap but no loofahs or poofy things. . .how the hell do you get the soap on your body? your hands?

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Saturday, 22 May 2004 20:57 (twenty-two years ago)

I actually buy a particular brand of Chinese soap. It's in bar form, but it's really good soap.

― Bimble (bimble), Saturday, 22 May 2004 20:58 (twenty-two years ago)

how the hell do you get the soap on your body? your hands?

huh?!

― jed_ (jed), Saturday, 22 May 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Just say "yes". It's what I would've done.

― Osmosis was my original answer (Barima), Saturday, 22 May 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm just imagining squeezing a bunch of liquid soap in your hand and going at it being. . .inefficient.

― Ask For Samantha (thatgirl), Saturday, 22 May 2004 21:48 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm just imagining squeezing a bunch of liquid soap in your hand and going at it being. . .inefficient

It depends what you mean by "going at it."

― martin m. (mushrush), Sunday, 23 May 2004 00:44 (twenty-two years ago)

I take no chances with SCUM.

Smart girl, that Kim. Because, you know, Valerie Solanis shot to ki-- oh wait a second, you say that Valerie's long since passed away? Hm.

I'm similar to certain people on this thread in that I use bar soap to shower and liquid soap to wash my hands. Anytime I try to shower using liquid soap, it adds at least five minutes to my total shower time, meaning more wasted time and water. Besides, I always seem to use more liquid soap than it seems should be necessary.

― Those Beautiful Lines (Dee the Lurker), Sunday, 23 May 2004 05:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Dr. Bronner's peppermint soap is perhaps the greatest invention evah.

― Ian Johnson (orion), Sunday, 23 May 2004 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

soap and washcloths carry a bacteria called pseudomonas when they're left wet and soggy. not nice

― smudger (smudger), Sunday, 23 May 2004 08:31 (twenty-two years ago)

Pseudo-monas are probably not as bad as real-monas though.

― C J (C J), Sunday, 23 May 2004 09:07 (twenty-two years ago)

good thing they don't carry Chlamydomonas:

http://www.stcsc.edu/ecology/algae/chlamydomonas.jpg

― MarkH (MarkH), Sunday, 23 May 2004 12:19 (twenty-two years ago)

What does this pseudomonas do?

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 23 May 2004 12:24 (twenty-two years ago)

five years pass...

experimenting with body wash/gel because the bars of soap seemed to go so fast.

pros: easy to use dispenser, smells good

con: not sure how much to use?

― the eagle laughs at you (m coleman), Monday, 11 January 2010 15:59 (sixteen years ago)

if you keep the bar soap outside the shower or in a place where water doesn't hit it it will last months

― harbl, Monday, 11 January 2010 16:05 (sixteen years ago)

Shower gels don't rinse easily enough for me.

― Enfonce bien tes ongles et tes doigts délicats dans la jungle de (Michael White), Monday, 11 January 2010 16:09 (sixteen years ago)

Shower gels needlessly over complicate bathing.

― she is writing about love (Jenny), Monday, 11 January 2010 16:14 (sixteen years ago)

I have gone back to simple bar soaps after years of other cleansers. TBF as long as I buy nice soaps, I like them just fine. Goats milk, olive oil, nice oatmeal ones, red grape oil, clear glycerin soaps for summer, men's sandalwood & hebal scents...actually I'm starting to like it a lot.

I don't keep the bar soap around the sink for handwashing, though, because it would get truly dirty.

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Monday, 11 January 2010 16:20 (sixteen years ago)

kiss my face olive oil & lavender

― harbl, Monday, 11 January 2010 16:20 (sixteen years ago)

I love Dr. Bronner's lavender soap.

― vittorio de sickofitall (Daruton), Monday, 11 January 2010 17:37 (sixteen years ago)

more threads should have "PUBES" as the first answer imo

― ah ah oh ooh ooh oh ah ah ah ah ah oh ah ah aha ooh (HI DERE), Monday, 11 January 2010 17:42 (sixteen years ago)

Living in a redneck, white-trash, hillbilly neighborhood - Advice?

― max, Monday, 11 January 2010 17:42 (sixteen years ago)

wash your body with a bar of soap

― harbl, Monday, 11 January 2010 17:44 (sixteen years ago)

Use a sponge or pouffey thing if you're not already, it'll make the shower gel last a lot longer.

Someone sent me a bunch of soap bars (I usually use liquid soap in refillable bottles) and I'd forgotten how that stuff gets everywhere. It kind of just sits in a layer of sludge when you're not using it and I get lumps of it under my fingernails. Liquid all the way (Body Shop coconut <3 <3)

― Not the real Village People, Monday, 11 January 2010 21:22 (sixteen years ago)

Don't understand why gels would complicate/add time to shower. They suit me just fine.

― pugwant (The Reverend), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 03:10 (sixteen years ago)

Big gas face to the clammy bottoms of soap bars btw.

― pugwant (The Reverend), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 03:12 (sixteen years ago)

With shower get, you have to grab the bottle and open the bottle and pour out the right amount and and then try to close the bottle and put it back in its proper place with one hand and maybe your eyes closed since your other hand is filled with shower gel and maybe you have soap on your face and wash yourself and then maybe pour out some more if you run out of lather and then and you can't tell just by looking when you're running out of shower gel and when you're done, you've got an empty plastic bottle that you have to throw away or recycle.

With soap bars, you just grab the bar and lather and go. When the soap is gone, it's time for new soap. Bar soap is also a lot cheaper.

One of these eliminates soap goo (which is really just soap; it's not like soap melts into raw sewage or something):

http://www.stacksandstacks.com/images/product/reg-15454.jpg

― she is writing about love (Jenny), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 03:29 (sixteen years ago)

well, soap and bacteria but...yeah there are ways to avoid soap goo

― harbl, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 03:32 (sixteen years ago)

since i was curious

Washing with contaminated bar soap is unlikely to transfer bacteria.

Heinze JE, Yackovich F.

Dial Corporation, Dial Technical Center, Scottsdale, AZ 85254.

Recent reports of the isolation of microorganisms from used soap bars have raised the concern that bacteria may be transferred from contaminated soap bars during handwashing. Since only one study addressing this question has been published, we developed an additional procedure to test this concern. In our new method prewashed and softened commercial deodorant soap bars (0.8% triclocarban) not active against Gram-negative bacteria were inoculated with Escherichia coli and Pseudomonas aeruginosa to give mean total survival levels of 4.4 X 10(5) c.f.u. per bar which was 70-fold higher than those reported on used soap bars. Sixteen panelists were instructed to wash with the inoculated bars using their normal handwashing procedure. After washing, none of the 16 panelists had detectable levels of either test bacterium on their hands. Thus, the results obtained using our new method were in complete agreement with those obtained with the previously published method even though the two methods differ in a number of procedural aspects. These findings, along with other published reports, show that little hazard exists in routine handwashing with previously used soap bars and support the frequent use of soap and water for handwashing to prevent the spread of disease.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3402545

― harbl, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 03:54 (sixteen years ago)

Dial Corporation, Dial Technical Center, Scottsdale, AZ 85254.

― Player is killed, but they are resurrected, and the 45 Revolver glow gold (dyao), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 03:58 (sixteen years ago)

but from my understanding of the way soap works, it makes your skin so slippery that the bacteria just get washed away. so it makes sense that the bacteria on the soap bar will, too, be lost in time, like tears in the rain. time to die.

― Player is killed, but they are resurrected, and the 45 Revolver glow gold (dyao), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 04:02 (sixteen years ago)

using soap with triclocarban seems like a good way to breed antibacterial resistant bacteria in your soap holder, though

― Player is killed, but they are resurrected, and the 45 Revolver glow gold (dyao), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 04:02 (sixteen years ago)

Yeah I'm not a fan of triclosan in everything, though admittedly I'll use it in the liquid soap for hand washing, but that I only use when I've changed cat litter or have handled raw meat or something (+ scalding hot water which prob does more than the soap does anyway).

― millivanillimillenary (Trayce), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 04:20 (sixteen years ago)

I'm with Jenny who writes about love.

― Jacob Sanders, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 04:43 (sixteen years ago)

It's actually the friction on washing your hands that kills the most bacteria, not the soap or the hot water (which isn't hot enough to kill bacteria).

― kate78, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 05:14 (sixteen years ago)

does it have to be hand to hand friction

― journey to the center of fat butt (electricsound), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 05:25 (sixteen years ago)

don't get ideas.

jenny, you make that sound way more complicated than it actually is

― pugwant (The Reverend), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 07:57 (sixteen years ago)

Dial Corporation, Dial Technical Center, Scottsdale, AZ 85254.

― Player is killed, but they are resurrected, and the 45 Revolver glow gold (dyao),

this dial corp study is all there was but they also make liquid soap and this does not support a greater need for liquid soap!

― harbl, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 14:25 (sixteen years ago)

Never bought gel in my life. Bar soap 4-eva.

― Hoisin Murphy (jaymc), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 14:29 (sixteen years ago)

I started using bar soap in the shower recently because I bought a really cute soap holder in the shape of an owl and I've found that given the choice, I now prefer bar soap. It seems more tactile. I used Burt's Bees ginger soap. Also prefer liquid soap for hands.

― Virginia Plain, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 17:11 (sixteen years ago)

I went back to soap once I started thinking about how all that shower gel packaging is Bad For The Environment. See also why I gave up on shaving cream.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 17:13 (sixteen years ago)

These days, though, I just use my body's own natural soap.

― The New Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 17:13 (sixteen years ago)

it seems like you just use way way more soap if it's liquid. thanks for polluting our watersheds and filling our landfills, liquid soap using jerks

― harbl, Tuesday, 12 January 2010 18:01 (sixteen years ago)

I only go through 1-2 bottles a year.

― pugwant (The Reverend), Tuesday, 12 January 2010 19:34 (sixteen years ago)

http://www.organicbeautyworld.com.au/zensc/images/chandrika.jpg

been addicted to this stuff since like way back in the 90s

― andrew m., Tuesday, 12 January 2010 19:53 (sixteen years ago)

five years pass...

Bars of soap make me smell like Regis Philbin so...

― Hammer Smashed Bagels, Tuesday, 15 September 2015 00:01 (ten years ago)

I am not generally loyal to brands. Most brand name products are just commodities with a big marketing budget. But this is good stuff and I will use it until I die:
http://www.kirksnatural.com/wp-content/uploads/FSBar_Original-310x410.jpg

― Aimless, Tuesday, 15 September 2015 00:07 (ten years ago)

my soap

https://www.drbronner.com/mm5/graphics/00000002/drbronners-organicoils-bar-soap-citrus-orange.jpg

― the late great, Tuesday, 15 September 2015 00:16 (ten years ago)

Bee and Flower sandalwood is the bomb. Wish I could find it more easily (tho Im sure if I hit up some azn grocers I'd find it)

― I checked Snoops , and it is for real (Trayce), Tuesday, 15 September 2015 00:55 (ten years ago)

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