OAKLAND

this guy's coming to get me

www.portofoakland.com

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre700/e709/e70966j73o0.jpg

The employees had a rental truck filled with the safe and the jukebox (?).

It reopened after a year but I never went back.

WOOO WOOOOO!

Oh, I'll second this!

It also has shitty food in the international terminal. They could do better.

http://www.morimotoarch.com/images/portfolio/yoshisEntry.jpg

(just kidding, just felt like making a scene)

make him take BART to fremont and leave him there if you're feeling antagonistic.

Alex has been there, I think.

i've never been in though

-- andy (and...), January 28th, 2004.

Andy, I am thinking about going this weekend. Any dishes that you would recommend?

http://www.tjsgingerbread.com/

i like oakland airport. i flew there from pdx, and i also flew to slc from there

He's thinking of selling.

It's a really nice house though! And it doesn't SEEM like such a bad area.

Yeah rumor has it that certain people consider me to be a bit of a douche.

Standing his ground endangers man's life
Despite flood of support, he says he'll move

West Oakland isn't no place for wusses!

Unless of course the East Bay Rats are having a Fight Party that weekend:

http://www.sfbg.com/39/21/cover_fight.html

Wayans World.

it's christmas in the ghetto fa la la la la la la la it's christmas in the ghetto fa la la la la la la la dealers bakin, fiends are waitin fa la la la la la la la it's christmas in the ghetto fa la la la la la la la

fentons still rocks by the way even though it's new and stuff.

(This is only two block from the jail where they incarcerated Huey! Oakland! Oakland!)

The eternal question.

I've lived in Downtown since '98 and I've only been mugged once.

http://www.craigslist.org/eby/apa/118742337.html

I can't afford it anyway.

xp haha

is the Ruby Room fun again? because it was when it opened and then it fucking sucked for a long time.

By far Oakland's greatest asset (which I recently discovered) is Joaquin Miller Park, right above the Mormon Temple. Dense redwood forests, WPA bridges, it's the lovliest place I've found. And you'll see barely a soul, Tilden is packed with North Face kooks but JMiller park is always empty.
http://www.oaklandnet.com/parks/facilities/parks_joaquin_miller.asp

Where I come from, the property prices eat your puny Bay Area prices for BREAKFAST!

(where do you come from?)

MORE OAKLAND LESS DANDIES

Holy shit... only her waistband belies her fierce oakland roots.

I went there with Alex.

Look at the weird Ozzie lookalike!

for sure you should not move to oakland.

i'm no doofus. i have faith and a huge heart and i think one day we'll turn this shit around. as soon as we fire norv. cuz we're the underdog. that can kill you. and will kill again. i hope.

These folks are serious doofuses, and they're definitely not from Oakland. San Ramon, I'll venture to guess.

I ROOT FOR A TEAM THAT ABANDONED US FOR LA AND THEN CAME BACK AND FUCKED UP OUR BASEBALL STADIUM! OF COURSE I AM A DOOFUS!

"i'm no doofus. i have faith and a huge heart and i think one day we'll turn this shit around. as soon as we fire norv. cuz we're the underdog. that can kill you. and will kill again. i hope."

???

1929 - Razing of Idora Park is begun to make way for new homes. For 25 years, the 17-acre amusement ground in North Oakland offered a variety of entertainment from roller-coaster thrills to band music and opera. The park existed in an area with Telegraph Avenue, Shattuck Avenue, 56th Street and 58th Street as its boundaries.

The bastards! I never even heard of that park.

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a.tcl?topic=San%20Francisco%20History

It seems like anytime there’s a crowd of young people – especially African Americans –gathered together it’s a threat to the police and they feel that they have to break it up. I don’t know what that’s all about but our options for summer activities are limited. They don’t provide fun things like summer camps or things like that in my neighborhood.

http://www.eastbayrats.com/home.html

(scroll halfway down)

A Cote was real rough as a vegetarian. I didn't enjoy my meal there at all. It was just overwhelmingly cream-centric.

http://www.insidebayarea.com/ci_11280603

hey Dellums, guess what, everyone thinks Oakland is scary dangerous anyway and your city is broker than shit, you really aren't in the position to turn something away that might bring money into this place!

He's waiting for the next Ann of Green Gables to be shot by in the dirty 30s

I can't wait for the episode where the pimp scores some organic apricot vinegar at the saturday lake merritt farmer's market

sounds kinda awesome. too bad.

It'll end up happening for basically the broker than shit reason.

I have no idea who Polly Anthony and Evan Reilly are.

Guess the former is a TV producer (hah!) and the latter is TV writer (and distribution coordinator for some Sopranos episodes whatever the hell that is.)

Dellums isn't really in a position to say shit about shit.

Agreed - I like how they conclude fictional crime is NOT TO BE HAD in THIS proud city while most of the municipal government is embroiled in corruption scandals and the current news is already full of violent happenings. I guess it's easier to just say words about stuff than to do things.

oakland...

Yesterdud.

scary things last night, i had to walk quite near the mini riot scene on my way home from work.

expect more of that if dude doesn't get put away.

I'm moving (back) to the Bay Area in a few weeks. I'm curious as to how widespread the protest/riots are? Anything in Berkeley?

see above. i think it is conditional on whether justice is served.

Mostly poor minorities destroying the autos of other poor minorities.

um.... African-Americans are the majority ethnic group in Oakland.

wat

expect more of that if dude doesn't get put away.

― (*ﾟーﾟ)θ L(。･＿･)　　　°~ヾ(･ε･ *) (Steve Shasta)

this is exactly what my bf has said, too. we live near lake merritt, and i have to walk through downtown oakland everyday to catch the BART to work. last night i was probably coming home just early enough to not be walking directly through the scene (i always walk down 14th), but i could see a bunch of cop cars a few blocks up madison.

The racial makeup of the city was 35.66% African American, 23.52% White, 0.66% Native American, 15.23% Asian American, 0.50% Pacific Islander, 11.66% from other races, and 4.98% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 21.19 percent of the population.[60]

SF Gate said something about there never having been a BEAST cop prosecuted for this kinda thing. So, good luck?

Steve, you are totally thick. There, I said it.

Awesome, keep up the not-so-thinly-veiled racist language.

WTF you moron.

That riot was complete bullshit. Good job beating the hell out of Creative African Braids.

The mob smashed the windows at Creative African Braids on 14th Street, and a woman walked out of the shop holding a baby in her arms.

"This is our business," shouted Leemu Topka, the black owner of the salon she started four years ago. "This is our shop. This is what you call a protest?"

Wednesday night's vandalism victims had nothing to do with the shooting death by a BART police officer of Oscar Grant on New Year's Day - but that did little to sway the mob.

"I feel like the night is going great," said Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco, one of the demonstrators. "I feel like Oakland should make some noise. This is how we need to fight back. It's for the murder of a black male."

Sykes, who is black, had little sympathy for the owner of Creative African Braids.

"She should be glad she just lost her business and not her life," Sykes said. She added that she did have one worry for the night: "I just hope nobody gets shot or killed."

Nia Sykes, 24, of San Francisco

A class act.

They also pitched rocks & bricks through windows at the Fox Theater and the Uptown. Nice work.

god the shooting is just sickening, unbelievable

on an entirely different subject- I feel like we should play a show in Oakland but venues seem real hit and miss over there. I do not wanna play the Stork Club or any other bar no one will come to. Any suggestions?

also nia sykes is obv a retard

but it always bums me out when there's more moral outrage over the bad stuff that happens in reaction to a police shooting than the actual shooting itself

"god the shooting is just sickening, unbelievable"

It is sickening. It would be more unbelievable but for the fact that it's the third incident of BART police shooting an unarmed rider in the past decade and a half, I think.

Believe me, people are pretty outraged about the shooting here.

as they should be.

wow i didn't know the history of the BART police, as an outsider i guess i never knew that oakland cops had a rep for that kind of stuff.

This covers some of the history:

http://www.sfbg.com/entry.php?entry_id=7813&catid=4&volume_id=398&issue_id=413&volume_num=43&issue_num=15

as far as Oakland cops rep goes, there's a reason the Black Panther Party was founded in Oakland

I dunno if I'd call it sickening, it's just sorta...unexplainable?

Is this even police brutality? The cops were pretty calm and don't appear to be roughing anybody up. And then he takes a gun out and shoots a guy in front of dozens of witnesses. It seems like a total absent minded event - more a "police shouldn't have guns because guns can be dangerous when you're not careful" than a "police being bad people." (And as anti-gun as I am, I'm not sure if police shouldn't have guns in Oakland...)

1) These are the BART police which is separate from the Oakland PD.

2) This is pretty much the definition of police brutality. In fact I'm not sure it is possible to be more brutal than this.

shooting and killing a naked guy is like the apex of shitty policing

And even more bewildering than the shooter's conduct is the BART police response to the events which is basically "look we fired him, what more do you want?"

Or rather "look he resigned, what more do you want?"

He's not shitty policing though, he's shitty-being a normal human being.

I dunno, I mean if the facts come out and it turns out the cop purposely shot the guy, then yeah, I'm with you guys. But it's just so *weird* a situation, esp. because there really didn't appear to be much struggle, that I'm not yet at the 'fuck the police' perspective.

most shitty normal human beings do not have guns and badges that allow them to kill random people with impunity

the whole thing is pretty weird. has it been determined yet if that officer's wife had just had a baby? because he could have been out of his mind sleep deprived and confused (in which case he should, under no circumstances, have been on the job with a weapon).

this is the first time I ever actually considered BART cops actual cops. I mean I was under the impression they were like, glorified security guards. i don't know that I even realized they had weapons.

(BART police are distinct from Oakland PD).

Shakey, you could play the Uptown. I think you'd have to do a fair amount of promotion yourself for that though. But they seem to be doing better than people expected. Also, 21 Grand will book shows, but they officially aren't supposed to be having shows, because they got in trouble with (ta da) Oakland PD.

(also plz note that re: the naked guy I was referring to a PREVIOUS BART police killing)

and then he takes a gun out and shoots a guy in front of dozens of witnesses. It seems like a total absent minded event - more a "police shouldn't have guns because guns can be dangerous when you're not careful" than a "police being bad people."

CNN says there have been unconfirmed reports that the officer mistook his gun for a taser, which would explain the matter-of-fact manner of the shooting.

"He's not shitty policing though, he's shitty-being a normal human being."

Um no he's shitting policing. There was absolutely no reason to pull out your gun in that situation.

CNN says there have been unconfirmed reports that the officer mistook his gun for a taser, which would explain the matter-of-fact manner of the shooting.

hahaha waht

hmm the Uptown... would have to consider requisite Prince cover

i don't undestand how you could really confuse your gun with a taser, aren't they shaped completely differently? tasers don't even have triggers, I don't think.

"CNN says there have been unconfirmed reports that the officer mistook his gun for a taser, which would explain the matter-of-fact manner of the shooting."

Laughable.

shitty policing = roughing up people for no reason.
shitty human being = shooting someone execution style in a very public space for no reason. police don't do this for fun.

and if the unconfirmed reports are right, then the guy is more stupid than he is evil

and the first thing that came to my head was also wtf guns have triggers. but seriously, what the hell other explanation is there? it wasn't a situation where he needed to pull his gun anyway.

well yeah on one hand tasers and pistols are very different, but on the other hand, he sure was awful tired

1) Shitty policing is pulling out your sidearm if your two partners have already subdued a cooperating suspect.

2) Those unconfirmed reports are complete bullshit.

3) I don't give a shit if the guy is evil.

look, if there was a struggle and somebody pulled a knife or something, and the police instantly pulled out his gun and shot him, that's def shitty policing. Amadou Diallo = definitely police brutality. but that situation has twisted shitty police logic behind it. this one doesn't.

1) was he really a "cooperating" suspect? the footage I saw showed him struggling. I mean I could understand pulling out a taser at that point.

2) most unconfirmed reports are

3) cool

or, alternatively, this guy decided to kill a man for no particular reason, because that's just what police do.

I think our definitions of shitty police logic are so vastly different that they will not meet.

the whole taser thing is so fucked up, too, so that's no excuse in my book.

BART police are highly, highly undertrained. Also, they're supposed to wear their tasers in a wholly different kind of location than the sidearm.

tasers are fucked up too, I agree. I'm not looking for an excuse, obv there isn't an excuse here...I'm looking for an explanation.

But even if the dude meant to taser the guy he killed, that's STILL the wrong situation to use a taser!

ugh, sorry guys. I'm not going to watch the video, but your explanations and reactions, i think, tell me all I need to know. :(

It's been a while, but I've DJed once at the Uptown (in 2002?) while on a road trip. I've been on BART on those very stops too. (obv, a lot of bay area people here have)

A taser is supposed to be a non-lethal firearm replacement, to be used in situations where a firearm would perhaps otherwise be used. It's not supposed to be a means of neutralizing a suspect who is already under control.

the video isn't very graphic

just "shitty", right?

You have to define "under control" then. Guy didn't look under control to me anyway fwiw. Accidentally grabbing a gun while reaching for a taser is certainly nowhere near anything that could be considered an excuse for killing a guy, but I don't see what's fucked up about tasers. Obviously it's a lesser-of-two-evils thing, but wouldn't you agree that accidents involving immobilization and pain are infinitely preferable to ones involving death?

xxpost You are a weird guy.

tasers are fucked up because they're overused in places that aren't Oakland BART stations.

I'm not going to "define" under control, but let's just say that a dude on his stomach with his hands behind his back is pretty close.

Yup.

I dunno why it comes across like I'm defending the police here. Well, I mean, okay, I do know why. I have no sympathy for the BART police, Oakland PD, Berkeley PD, whoever.

I'm just of the mind that this is way too *weird* for it to be purely a normal fuck the police situation.

All instances of police brutality seem "weird" to me.

I mean do you think it's "rational" to shoot someone 40 someodd times??!

this guy must have lost his mind to have done something so stupid and crazy in front of so many people. i agree 100% with the tone of the SFBG editorial. BART PD clearly needs more oversight.

I mean do you think it's "rational" to shoot someone 40 someodd times??!

I just walked to in-n-out and was actually thinking about this particular case on the way there, trying to come up with a police-brutality-rational-thinking system.

Their reasoning in that situation:
1. Guy may or may not have a gun
2. With which he may shoot us
3. We're gonna shoot him and make sure he's dead
4. We really, really want to make sure he's dead

So Kant it ain't, but there does have to be some sort of *reasoning* behind this, some sort of explanation for why someone acted like they did. Psychological, racist, whatever.

In general the brutality rationality is more like:

1. We can be more violent than the law deems appropriate
2. We will get away with it, or will be punished lightly

and

3. This is okay because we're the good guys / they're the bad guys / we're teaching someone a lesson
or
4. This is okay because I dislike that person / enjoy inflicting violence on others

(1) he'd already been pat down.

Amadou Diallo was?

it is a weird video: the whole thing just seems so... casual. the guy is on the ground, things seem pretty calm and under control, the cops are stressed-looking or freaked out or whatever, and then he just pulls out the gun - kind of half-heartedly, he doesn't whip it out in a big hurry - let's his arm sort of hang and then shoots him. and then he seems completely out of it, like he doesn't realise what's happened.

i dunno, it just seems pretty different to other types of police-brutality footage i've seen.

The fact that he quit right before he had to explain why he killed an unarmed man in such a bizarre way makes me think that the reasons he may or may not eventually be required to give won't be all that terribly compelling.

it should be pretty obvious that even if he shot the guy by accident he should still go to jail for it, just as if i "absent-mindedly" drove onto the sidewalk and killed people while i was driving.

besides, aren't police supposed to be like extraordinarily well-trained to handle and use guns, considering that they're licensed to carry guns and use them to kill people?

and it's not like the gun just went off in his holster or something, i mean the dude pulled it out, aimed it, and fired.

BART police are highly, highly undertrained. Also, they're supposed to wear their tasers in a wholly different kind of location than the sidearm.

― ShamPowWow (libcrypt), Thursday, January 8, 2009 4:15 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

24 year old protestors from san francisco are highly, highly undertrained

i didn't realise bart police were 'real' police, either.

gah, in nz our police don't carry guns and have only recently allowed to start using tasers. a guy i went to high school with was shot and killed when he had some kind of freak-out and went on a window-bashing spree with golf club.

and speaking of dodgy cops: my boyfriend was riding to work and got some bored cop trailing him, then flashing his lights. he pulled over to the broken glass-covered shoulder and the cop drove by slowly, staring at him, then took off. and then my bf got a flat tire.

uh, that guy was shot and killed by a policeman. our cops don't carry guns on duty, but will report to a dangerous scene with them. if that makes sense.

Wow, more riots. And the cop still isn't talking. This sucks.

cop has been arrested

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?f=/c/a/2009/01/14/BAJE15A6O2.DTL&o=0

i dont know why i thought he might look different than he does

tons and tons of cops everywhere off and on broadway, roads closed... bit scary getting off the train in downtown oakland. but i may have missed some stuff, since our neighbour told my bf early that downtown was 'mad' - it was pretty barren at 6.30pm.

one of my bff's lives at 11th and mlk. he was at our house and we turned on the live news broadcast to see protesters fighting w/cops at 12th and broadway. 2 blocks from his place. luckily (?) he was driving home instead of taking bart

what time was that? 12th and broadway is where i exit bart.

is it worth asking how many of these protestors were from out of town?

anything crazy that went on at berkeley when i was there - and there was not much except for a couple of PETA protests on tolman hall, some pro-public space "take back the streets" squatter nonsense on telegraph, and some very very heated arguments about the intifada - seemed more to do with people from surrounding areas showing up to misbehave in berkeley rather than residents or students.

i think a fair amount of these protestors were from oakland. I don't know, I completely understand the protesters in this case. I don't really agree with how it's gone down but I see why it went that way and wouldn't have expected anything else. A white cop shot a restrained black man in the back on video. I'm surprised there weren't even bigger riots.

http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2009/01/08/18559690.php

^ amazing!

The kids in Oakland know how to party. Let's show them they are not alone.

justine, it was around 9pm

Legal analysis of murder

Common law murder is defined as the:

1. unlawful
2. killing
3. of another human being
4. with a state of mind known as "malice aforethought".

The first three elements are relatively straightforward; however, the concept of "malice aforethought" is a complex one that does not necessarily mean premeditation. The following states of mind are recognized as constituting the various forms of "malice aforethought":
(i) Intent to kill;
(ii) Intent to inflict serious bodily harm short of death;
(iii) Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"); or
(iv) Intent to commit a dangerous felony (the "felony-murder" doctrine).

Under state of mind (i), intent to kill, the deadly weapon rule applies. Thus, if the defendant intentionally uses a deadly weapon or instrument against the victim, such use authorizes a permissive inference of intent to kill. An example of a deadly weapon or instrument is a gun, a knife, or even a car when intentionally used to strike the victim.
Under state of mind (iii), an "abandoned and malignant heart", the killing must result from defendant's conduct involving a reckless indifference to human life and a conscious disregard of an unreasonable risk of death or serious bodily injury. An example of this is a 2007 law in California where an individual could be convicted of third-degree murder if he or she kills another person while operating a motor vehicle while being under the influence of alcohol, drugs, or controlled substances.
Under state of mind (iv), the felony-murder doctrine, the felony committed must be an inherently dangerous felony, such as burglary, arson, rape, robbery or kidnapping. Importantly, the underlying felony cannot be a lesser included offense such as assault, otherwise all criminal homicides would be murder as all criminal homicides are felonies.

Voluntary manslaughter

Voluntary manslaughter describes cases where the defendant may have an intent to cause death or serious injury, but the potential liability for the person is mitigated by the circumstances and/or state of mind. The most common example is the so-called passion, or heat of the moment killing, such as where the defendant is provoked into a loss of control, by, for instance, unexpectedly finding his or her spouse in the arms of another lover, or witnessing an attack against his or her child.
There have been several types of voluntary manslaughter recognized in law, although they're so closely related, and, in many cases, indistinguishable, that many jurisdictions don't differentiate between them.[1]
Another form of voluntary manslaughter in some countries is infanticide. This offense was created by statute in some countries during the 20th century. Generally, a conviction of infanticide will be made where the court is satisfied that a mother killed her newborn child while the balance of her mind was disturbed as a result of childbirth; for instance, in cases of post-natal depression. It's a form of manslaughter, and carries the same range of sentences as a manslaughter conviction. Theoretically, it's a separate offense to murder, and not a reductive defense to murder (such as the defenses listed below), but, in practice, it works in much the same way as a reductive defense.

Defenses include:

1. Provocation. This is a killing caused by an event or situation which would probably cause a reasonable person to lose self-control and kill.
2. Heat of Passion. In this situation, the actions of another cause the defendant to act in the heat of the moment, and without reflection. This falls under the provocation heading.
3. Imperfect self-defense. This is a third type, which is allowed only in some US states. By default, self-defense is a complete defense to any charge of murder. However, if a person acted in the honest but unreasonable belief that self-defense justified the killing, many US states will define this as deliberate homicide committed without criminal malice: a manslaughter. The word "malice" is used in the definition of murder where the act is both an intentional killing, and without legal excuse or mitigation. The honest belief in the need for self-defense mitigates the crime so that one acts intentionally, but without the legal "malice." Therefore, Imperfect Self-Defense refers to an intentional killing which is unlawful, but doesn't rise to the level of being a murder.
4. Diminished Responsibility is another defense to murder that will negate the charge down. Most US states require an almost complete mental breakdown to eliminate the culpable mental state of "malice". If a jurisdiction recognizes that a person can kill with justification, but also without any evil intent, that jurisdiction is free to define the crime as something less than murder. Not all US states do this; in many, a mental defect, or even mental illness, won't reduce the seriousness of the offense whatsoever. However, if a US state legislature chooses, a diminished mental state may justify the finding of a lesser crime.
Insanity is a different defense as it completely negates any criminal culpability, although the mental health consequence can result in as much confinement time as a murder conviction.

Involuntary manslaughter

Involuntary manslaughter, sometimes called criminally negligent homicide in the United States, gross negligence manslaughter in England and Wales or culpable homicide in Scotland, occurs where there's no intention to kill or cause serious injury, but death is due to recklessness or criminal negligence.

Recklessness
Recklessness, or willful blindness, is defined as a wanton disregard for the known dangers of a particular situation. An instance of this would be a defendant throwing a brick off a bridge, into vehicular traffic below. There exists no intent to kill; consequently, a resulting death wouldn't be considered murder. However, the conduct is probably reckless, sometimes used interchangeably with criminally negligent, which may subject the principal to prosecution for involuntary manslaughter: the individual was aware of the risk of injury to others and willfully disregarded it.
In many jurisdictions, such as in California, if the unintentional conduct amounts to such gross negligence as to amount to a willful or depraved indifference to human life, the mens rea may be considered to constitute malice. In such a case, the charged offense may be murder, often characterized as second degree murder.

Misdemeanor manslaughter
In the United States, this is a lesser version of felony murder, and covers a person who causes the death of another while committing a misdemeanor – that is, a violation of law which doesn't rise to the level of a felony. This may automatically lead to a conviction for the homicide, if the misdemeanor involved a law designed to protect human life. Many violations of safety laws are infractions, which means a person can be convicted regardless of mens rea.

I honestly don't think that murder is going to stick. Voluntary manslaughter seems much more plausible.

Uh he fired a gun at him. That's pretty much the definition of "intent to kill" right there.

Not saying he won't get voluntary manslaughter, but this is pretty clearly murder.

I think it's voluntary manslaughter because any reasonable defense attorney is going to be able to make a good case for the mitigating factors that would classify it thus. E.g., "heat of passion", "fear" or somesuch.

i.e. the guy was a cop and the guy he shot was black.

That's a Shasta-level reduction right there.

Uh no.

I think that racism was a factor in the killing, but I don't think that it's reducible to simple racism. I mean, it was wrong, but it wasn't a lynching.

seems to be pretty close

Yes, lots of people with bona fides to establish do say that.

It's hard to say it was racism without knowing the cop's motives.

What, are you saying that speculation on the internets is no longer allowed???

Dearest libcrypt,

If the level of reduction, if you please allow me to remind you with your brilliant post immortalized upthread, of which the standard you judge thusly is this:

Mostly poor minorities destroying the autos of other poor minorities.

― ShamPowWow (libcrypt), Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:56 AM

Then I don't mind being criticized by you because, to be frank, you're a fucking idiot.

Besties,

Shasta

Yeah, it's definitely "covert racism" to mention that there were counterproductive elements to the protest, genius.

When you feel it's safe to come down off your pedestal, you should share your views with Myron Bell.

u just mad cause I am late on the pedestal rent this month.

"I think that racism was a factor in the killing, but I don't think that it's reducible to simple racism. I mean, it was wrong, but it wasn't a lynching."

I'm not saying racism was or wasn't a factor in the killings, I'm saying race (and the fact that the perpetrator was a cop) will be a major factor in whether or not the conviction will be for murder or not.

And if you don't believe that then I agree with Steve, you are a fucking idiot.

I'm not saying racism was or wasn't a factor in the killings, I'm saying race (and the fact that the perpetrator was a cop) will be a major factor in whether or not the conviction will be for murder or not.

Factor positively or negatively?

Okay you are a fucking idiot.

Okay you are a fucking idiot.

So nice had to say it twice.

*shrug* one less hottentot

Sorry, I still have the pedestal for the rest of this month. Ask Steve about Feb rentals.

It's too bad ILX can't have a reasonable discussion on the merits of the various cases without the SF clergy starting a game of fantasy stone tablet tossing.

Mostly poor clergymen destroying the discussions of other poor clergymen.

No offense, but I like to have my reasonable discussions with people who've demonstrated basic reading comprehension.

I'm not the only dude on this thread if you can't get over yrself.

That's pretty much the definition of "intent to kill" right there.

Not quite. Just to quibble, what will make it murder is shooting Mr. Grant not in the leg or hand but right in the back.

^^OTM

totally lolling at dude's not guilty plea btw

"Not quite."

True. I used a bit of shorthand there.

Not quite. Just to quibble, what will make it murder is shooting Mr. Grant not in the leg or hand but right in the back.

To my non-lawyerly reading, it looks like "voluntary manslaughter" is a set of exceptions to the qualifications for murder. That is to say, it's voluntary manslaughter if it falls under the definition of murder but there are a set of qualifying extenuating circumstances.

At least according to Wikipedia.

MW makes good point but this whole case hinges on what the cop says (sorry, I can't spell his last name) under cross-examination. Until the jury hears what his thoughts were prior to pulling the trigger, everything else is speculative. That's why he resigned prior to interview with IA, then pleaded the 5th so that there is no chance of that information leaking prior to trial.

ie, no trial by media.

So the question in my mind is whether such circumstances exist.

If his defense is that he mistook his pistol for his Taser (and generally acts like a moron from here on out), he can claim involuntary manslaughter, though I can't imagine a local jury's going to buy it. His lack of remorse following this is damning.

According to the talking voices on Forum this morning, the defendant isn't going to testify. So the jurors will have to ascertain his state of mind from his actions and the testimonies of the other officers and witnesses (most of which are still not public).

I can't say I know how they knew he wasn't going to testify, tho, 'cause I joined 15 min in.

Wow, if that's the case, those three videos are pretty damning and he's gonna get 25+ years.

I'm not a potential juror unless this turns Federal, methinks, so I have no compunction saying that my prejudice is highly weighted towards a finding of murder.

Where are ILX's criminal defense lawyers when you need them?

Where are they trying the case?

What I would also love to know is if (ok, i'm going to try...) Meserhle was drug/alcohol tested upon returning to the station.

The charge I heard was 2nd degree murder, but the jury has leeway to convict on lesser counts of murder all the way down to involuntary manslaughter.

Alex, they're trying to move it out of Oakland (cf, Rodney King vs. LAPD).

I dunno where it's being tried, but if there's a single damned lesson to be learned from Rodney King, it shouldn't be Marin.

I want to reiterate the major (if not only) reason why this guy isn't going to get convicted of murder is that a) he's a cop and b) the guy he shot was black. Juries giving leeway to cop's abuses of power and letting latent racism color their verdicts is as old as time itself.

lib, no defense attorney will approach that video footage with any hope of an exoneration.

In many jurisdictions, such as in California, if the unintentional conduct amounts to such gross negligence as to amount to a willful or depraved indifference to human life, the mens rea may be considered to constitute malice. In such a case, the charged offense may be murder, often characterized as second degree murder.

Do you know examples of police being convicted of murder in similar situations, where the victim was white, Alex?

Except, Alex, the 'thin blue line' isn't likely to form around a guy who (a) was captrued committing his crime on tape, (b) never even bothered to submit to IA, and (c) essentially bailed on the whole scene. The BART cops are just as likely to be perfectly happy to throw this guy under the bus.

There's a general pro-cop bias in the SF area. No officer has been charged with even manslaughter in this area in a long, long time, if ever.

Maybe I'm just thinking of BART cops, tho.

"The BART cops are just as likely to be perfectly happy to throw this guy under the bus."

We'll see.

"Do you know examples of police being convicted of murder in similar situations, where the victim was white, Alex?"

No, do you?

I'm not arguing against you, Alex. I'm simply curious, and no, I don't know.

Well, you know they'll play at least a modicum of CYA and this is a two year vet, hardly a pillar of the force, and he's made them look like asses.

I hope you are right, but somehow I doubt you are.

Either way I don't think it pays to underestimate even without much BART cop cooperation that certain jurors might be inclined to view this cop's perspective of the threat posed by this guy/situation differently than you or I might.

Fair enough. I wonder how much the threat of civil unrest will weigh on them, too.

If the trial is moved away from the SF bay area, I don't think that civil unrest will matter one whit to the jurors.

They will certainly be instructed not to take that into account

"Fair enough. I wonder how much the threat of civil unrest will weigh on them, too."

I'm not convinced that would be a positive for conviction.

OAKLAND – BART’s initial probe into the fatal shooting New Year’s Day of an unarmed passenger by a transit agency police officer is under fire after recently released footage of the incident shows another officer punching the Hayward father in the head prior to the shooting.
On Jan. 12, BART announced it had completed its internal investigation into the death of 22-year-old Oscar Grant III. That afternoon, police Chief Gary Gee said only the shooter, former Officer Johannes Mehserle, was being investigated in connection with the incident. The other six officers on the Fruitvale station platform that morning had followed proper police procedure, Gee said.
But an amateur video clip that aired Friday on KTVU presents a different scenario, legal experts say. A second officer identified as Tony Pirone is shown punching Grant moments before the shooting in what appears to be a clear act of excessive police force, said Peter Keane, a police expert and professor at Golden Gate University Law School in The City.
Mehserle, 27, is accused of murder, but no other officers are facing disciplinary or other charges. The Alameda County District Attorney’s Office, which is prosecuting Mehserle, did not return calls for comment Monday. Mehserle is being held at Santa Rita Jail in Dublin and has pleaded not guilty.
The footage of Pirone punching Grant seems new to the case, but KTVU’s news director said Monday that the same clip has been available for viewing in full on its Web site since Jan. 6, less than a week before Gee publicly exonerated Pirone and the other officers present on the Fruitvale platform.
The question now is whether BART had missed seeing the footage of the punching incident during its investigation or had chosen to ignore it in order protect Pirone, experts say.
“If the police chief made that statement having seen this video ... the chief should be fired,” Keane said.
He also said if it’s discovered that officers witnessed the punching and chose not to report it to investigators, they “at a minimum” should lose their jobs.
“This is the most revealing of all the videos, the most damning,” he said.
Grant’s killing has sparked social unrest and led to rioting in Oakland.
Attorney John Burris, who’s representing Grant’s family in a $25 million claim against BART, said he’d “like to believe” BART investigators missed the punching incident while reviewing the available video footage.
“If they saw it, that’s a cover-up,” Burris said.
BART officials said they will conduct a “rigorous” internal-affairs investigation into Pirone’s actions. Repeated e-mails and phone calls asking whether the transit agency had missed seeing the punch during its initial investigation have not been returned.

There was a young man in the Houston area, Bellaire, that was shot in the back while he was on the ground after being stopped at his own house and falsely accused of having a stolen car. around the same time. He lived, but that was just chance.

there really haven't been any protests and it hasn't been a major media event. Here's a random article about it http://www.khou.com/news/local/stories/khou090105_mh_bellaire_shooting_meeting.4059f425.html

Sometimes it feels like what happens in Houston isn't real to the national media.

I'm not trying to intrude on your local news, or your feelings about it. I don't know what it would be like to live where protests or riots take place when these things happen. I feel bad when it just passes by down here. It's a nation wide situation. Maybe the people of Oakland feel alone with these situations. and the people of Cincinnati. all of us.

wayyyyy off this ^^^^ subject, but I found this super disappointing and this is the oakland thread:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/06/24/DDMH11DRSK.DTL

http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/03/03/bart.lawsuit/index.html

$50 million lawsuit filed in BART shooting case

(CNN) -- The family of a man slain by a former transit police officer filed a $50 million lawsuit Monday against officers involved in the New Year's Day shooting, the family's attorney told CNN affiliate KTVU.
The shooting of Oscar Grant III, an unarmed man, sparked large protests in Oakland.

The shooting of Oscar Grant III, an unarmed man, sparked large protests in Oakland.

The hefty price tag is double what the family's attorney originally asked for in its legal claim, which is the first step in filing a lawsuit. In the weeks after the shooting, John Burris, the victim's family attorney, filed a $25 million claim alleging wrongful death. Burris said he decided to raise the amount of the lawsuit after learning more about the shooting of 22-year-old Oscar Grant III on a platform of a Bay Area Rapid Transit train station.

"It is the most outrageous shooting, police-misconduct case I have ever been involved in," the veteran civil rights lawyer told the affiliate.

The lawsuit alleging wrongful death and violation of civil rights names then-Officer Johannes Mehserle, the BART police chief and other officers involved in the incident, Burris said.

The shooting drew national attention after grainy cell phone videos of the incident taken by a bystander began circulating on the Internet and news shows.

The video showed Mehserle, 27, pulling his gun and shooting Grant in the back as another officer kneeled on Grant.

Mehserle may have intended to draw and fire his Taser rather than his gun, according to a court filing by his attorney.

The shooting of the unarmed man sparked large protests in Oakland and led to the arrest of Mehserle on a murder charge.

So large protests.

this was exactly what our overflowing-with-money public transportation system needed

waiting to see what the financial damage from the "strong police presence" at all the protests is going to cost Oakland, and what huge budget cuts they're going to make.

I am reading a funny novel set in Oakland, Youth in Revolt.

never read it, though a friend recommended it to me years ago. Maybe I should read it.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/03/21/us/AP-Police-Shot-CA.html

ugh

3 of the 4 are now reported dead. Apparently this was really close to the East Oakland police station. It could be worse, they could have killed people on the healthy neighborhoods walking tour.

from AP: As for the slain shooting suspect, the father said, "The man was evidently terribly desperate. It is a sad story..."

father of the cop that got shot but is still alive

Kinda shocked here to hear reports of "celebrations" of the cops' deaths.

I'm not

4th officer dead

Shocked, not surprised.

did anyone hear about 5 murders going don on 12th st near 14th ave on march 4th? i rode past a roped off street and 2 coroners' vans on my way home, but i never saw anything about it in the news. but you'd think 5 murders in one day would merit news coverage. strange.

I think there was an Oscar Grant protest that day.

there was, and all the news i searched for on the net was about that... but still- 5 people murdered in an apartment building? that's practically a massacre, and the news loves calling things massacres.

^^ true that. Also, if someone is murdered in San Francisco it trumps a murder in Oakland.

Maybe a stupid question, but how do you know that 5 people were murdered?

i went to the crime stats website to look at how many murders there have been in the last 90 days within a mile from my house. i was curious, because it's not every day you see buildings roped off and coroner's vans on the ride home from work...

oh yeah, it's listed on the OPD crime stats report - guessing that since 4 of them all happened within minutes of each other and were either 1st degree or no type stated and the 5th was a half hour later and second degree, that the 5th murder was probably the person that killed the other four. Weird that there wasn't news about it, you're right!

also, i guess it seems flippant to mention, since the oakland thread has been devoted to loss of life lately, but the parkway is having its last hurrah right now. people are lined up around the block to get in. i, for one, am devastated not only at the loss of the parkway, but at the fact that this neighborhood looks like it's gonna get worse before it gets better.

my s.o. used to live in that neighborhood (near the Parkway) when it first opened, and it was a lot worse then than it is now. I think a lot of people who moved to Oakland in the last 3 or 4 years have moved to that neighborhood (at least most of the people I know), so I don't think it's going to go back to 1997 levels of dismal, at least in terms of crime.

http://uhurunews.com/event?resource_name=march-and-candlelight-vigil-for-lovelle-mixon-and-the-african-community

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/03/25/BADD16N9VP.DTL

This is some through-the-looking-glass shit.

That doesn't surprise me. What would is if there were a rally in Oakland for Johannes Mehserle - the BART cop that shot Oscar Grant. "We are all Johannes Mehserle. We all sometimes fuck up and kill someone for no good reason." Actually Mixon and Mehserle do have that in common.

he didn't rape little girls though

oh come on, it was just _one_ little girl.

O_O
http://indybay.org/newsitems/2009/03/25/18582590.php

LOVELL MIXON IN MEMORY AND SUPPORT RALLY ON EAST OAKLAND
by Freelance Reporter
Wednesday Mar 25th, 2009 9:47 PM

Family friends and total estrangers gather today’s at the place where Lovell Mixon Ceased to exist in this physical form this past Saturday in Oakland CA. People were there to show solidarity and support and to tell the media and the whole police department that they can go to hell because "we don’t believe in the demonization of this modern day Malcolm X". A Native American Man said " the only raper i can really think of is the ones who came and rape my mother land"

Because Lovell Mixon was a stirring orator and a charismatic leader of men. Struck down too early to write his compelling autobiography.

jesus christ

that is actually totally insane

Lolo Darnell, one of Mixon's cousins at the demonstration, said, "He needs sympathy too. If he's a criminal, everybody's a criminal."

I just don't know how to respond to this.

i wish that certain people could see that not every single thing in world comes down to race.

so basically Oakland residents really REALLY hate the cops. Like, more than rapists.

and more than pedophiles, too

let's not blow it out of proportion, that looks like 5-10 "community organizers" and 40-50 friends they picked up off the street. you could probably organize a thousand man march through oakland in support of the seven galaxies in 24 hours, it's just that sort of place.

^^^^Frank Chu wishes

ive heard people suggest that mixon's rape charges were trumped-up, if not wholly fabricated.

and i mean, whether or not it's a rational response, there are rational people who distrust oakland police. that said, it's very sad that these four people died.

this is true - i mean, my fiance got harassed very recently for no apparent reason: he (a white guy) was just riding his bike to work and some cop basically tried to intimidate (and forced him as close to the edge of road as possible, so that he had to ride through a bunch of broken glass and got a flat tire) him. we also had some rude cop beating down our door while trying to track down our neighbours. so yeah, i don't have much love for the police around here. but it sure as hell doesn't mean that it's ok to be happy that 4 men are dead, given that i have no idea what kind of policemen they were.

what i hear around here isnt a happiness that cops are dead, but a kind of SO WHAT response, motivated by the volume and history of unreported/unpublicized police violence in oakland. im new here (in oakland, not on ILX LOL), so i have basically no idea about the real story, but i know that these vigils are not throngs of cop-haters having parties!

re: OPD history - there are really good, legitimate reasons the Black Panther Party was born in Oakland.

can anyone recommend a book to read abt this?

69, what part of oakland are you in?

live above the adams pt whole foods, work for a housing/banking watchdog at 13th and broadway.

full disclosure: my gf and i are moving to the mission this weekend, but im interested in having dual-bay-citizenship

I've never had a negative interaction with the cops around here, but I am a bougie white dude so what do I know.

my gf and i are moving to the mission this weekend, but im interested in having dual-bay-citizenship

congrats! welcome to the neighborhood! I'm at 25th and Hampshire

Perhaps Oakland needs to spend 10 years without any police presence whatsoever.

I hear that Juarez has some really great community organizers that might be able to help out Oakland in their post-police future.

not really a 1:1 analogy there (but I lolled)

congrats! welcome to the neighborhood! I'm at 25th and Hampshire

― I'm Into that Japanese Pop-Funk (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, March 26, 2009 5:04 PM (14 minutes ago) Bookmark

hi dere 21st and AL

but this is a discussion for another thread

hey im not from oakland or anything but i bet its possible to remain critical of the opd and its history and policies and not actually be advocating a police-free city

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7425/imageuploadimage.jpg

live above the adams pt whole foods

You're not the guy that was playing Fleetwood Mac over and over again every afternoon a couple months back are you?

I can't imagine an ilx poster doing that

well, someone who lives in the building that's right above the adams pt whole foods did this! It was kinda annoying because I don't like Fleetwood Mac, but it was nowhere near as bad as the dude a few years back that played "Hey Jude" on his car stereo below our window around 1am for a couple weeks straight.

LOL i wish it had been me, but my gf and i just got to CA on 2/23 or something

seriously though, do you live on Vern0n Terrace?

just till tuesday but yeah!

I've known so many people who have lived on Vernon for some reason.

I live on Vernon, next to the "terrace" ... I feel sorry for everyone who has to get a moving van up vernon terrace. A while back some guys' van literally got stuck and had to get a tow.

i live right across from you, on the other side of the lake

yay! Maybe we should have an Oakland drinking expedition, Berkeley ilx-ors are invited as well.

that might be pretty cool. i don't really know any of the oakland/berkxlors, online or off.

Well hey I'm in adams point closer to fairyland. I have also been known to play "Over and Over" over and over.

I've never met any ILX people before, but I would participate if invited!

suggestions for cool places to meet? i don't really go to bars so i have no idea!

Easy Lounge has a cool happy hour. Geo Kaye's is good, too. So is Kona Club.

lol i have no idea where any of those are

geo kaye's is on broadway.

I don't drink but depending on when this was I might show up and drink water.

don't worry - i don't really drink anymore either, so you won't be on your own!

I had to look them all up but then remembered that Kaye's has been rec'd to me many times, and Kona is the tiki bar I have driven past approximately a gazillion times.

ned is in sf this weekend, maybe he could be persuaded to visit dirty ol' oakland

I might be interested in coming, depending on time...

hah, I used to live a few blocks from Geo Kayes. I think it was the first bar I went to in the bay area. Kerry House was a fave.

My brother, who's not very message board-savvy (i.e. he has a life), is moving to Oakland and wants to know what the safest, most affordable areas are. I guess affordable first and safety second, although I know for a fact he doesn't want to live anywhere that he's going to have to worry about home break-ins or hear shots ringing out all night. Do such places exist? We live in a relatively "rough" city right now, although I don't think it's Oakland-rough.

Also, how's the job market now? Not career-level stuff, but just like restaurant jobs, Trader Joe's type places, maybe working for a newspaper or magazine? That type of thing.

I think he'd like to have a roommate as long as he had his own room.

Is Oakland a fun place to live overall? How much time do you guys spend in SF vs. Oakland (those of you who live in Oakland)?

Thanks!

Generally, the safest areas are the least affordable areas. When picking a neighborhood to live in, he probably should consider his primary mode of transportation. If he's comfortable riding a bike in a city, there are a lot more options than if he doesn't have a car and doesn't want to bike.

Most of the folks I know that have moved to Oakland in the past couple years (as opposed to me who's lived in the same place for 11+ years) end up in the Temescal, North Oakland or just east of Lake Merritt. The first two are good for easy access to SF and Berkeley (the two places he's most likely to find work).

Except in a few neighborhoods, he wouldn't have to worry much about home break-ins or gunfire, but car break-ins and muggings are par for the course in a number of places.

out of curiosity, if he doesn't have a place or a job, what exactly is his reason for wanting to move to oakland?

temescal is still relatively cheap. I mean all of oakland is relatively cheap compared to SF or Berkeley. But temescal, even though it is cute and looks safe, has a lot of robberies (maybe fewer these days, but there were a lot of street robberies and muggings, I think they finally caught a few of the people responsible for most of these). even up on piedmont ave there are robberies and muggings. this happens because oakland PD is understaffed and criminals take advantage; they come into the neighborbood to rob, it's not like they live there. I'd say, if you're that worried about it, move to Montclair, but it's not cheap there and it's hard to get around, might as well live in Berkeley. Or just move to Temescal and try not to worry about it, you'll probably be fine.

Temescal is safe, close to things, GREAT for biking. Also Geta Sushi, mmm..

also, a Burma Superstar just opened there.

When I lived in Oakland, I lived between Piedmont and Broadway, between 40th and Pleasant Valley. Further east it gets a little more pricey, further west it gets a little sketch (I think I have my directions right - it's been a while). This area is freakin' great. If I ever had to move back to Oakland, I would look here first.

slugbaiting, that is almost exactly where my friends live or have lived in the past. very awesome area.

xp that area used to be relatively cheap, but isn't anymore.

Also, how's the job market now? Not career-level stuff, but just like restaurant jobs, Trader Joe's type places, maybe working for a newspaper or magazine? That type of thing.

I know a lot of people who are out of work. It's isn't great.

i live by the parkway theater just east of the lake, and my apartment got broken into and robbed. my friend lived in piedmont for awhile (off the corner of pleasant valley and howe) and a guy smashed her window and crawled in at night, although her husband chased him off with a bat. you're really rolling the dice anywhere in oakland, although i still like living here and try to defend it most of the time. just live somewhere decent, like in the grand lake, temescal, or piedmont areas, and get renter's insurance.

as I said above, everyone I know who lives in temescal has been mugged, a few of them at gunpoint; only one of them got hurt though (hit in the face...by teenagers!). none of them this year though.

I live in Temescal and have never been mugged. The only time my place got broken into was when I lived in the gourmet ghetto in North Berkeley, ironically enough.