Taking sides: Children vs. (non-human) animals

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There is a heated debate on 5 Live. Actually it's children vs. pets, but I think that's less interesting.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:03 (eighteen years ago) link

kitt'ns

the surface noise (electricsound), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Is someone translating for the pets?

jazz odysseus, Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Like this is even a question to take sides over. Animals win easily.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:29 (eighteen years ago) link

Comics.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:34 (eighteen years ago) link

animals, because they don't lock you away when you eat them

Kingfish Beatbox (Kingfish), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Old people. They forgive more than children. They die quicker than animals.

Eyeball Kicks (Eyeball Kicks), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 01:46 (eighteen years ago) link

They had a woman on who confessed to calling herself 'mummy' to her cats.

N. (nickdastoor), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 08:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I can see myself having children as a substitute for having a dog.

DV (dirtyvicar), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 12:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Like this is even a question to take sides over.

OTM. The second half of that post however...well, I'll just say this: animals can't make you grilled cheese sandwiches.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 16:38 (eighteen years ago) link

but you can't, or shouldn't, eat yr kids in lean times

My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link

But you can train them to rob the Kwik-E-Mart.

nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 16:50 (eighteen years ago) link

I used to work with two people, neither of whom had children and both of whom had pets (one cats, the other dogs) and they were totally bonkers. Not in a good way. The cat owner once left a folder on my colleagues desk for her to look at. The attached note had a picture of a doggie rolling in a field of flowers and read "from Muffin's Mummy". She was also the type to wear holiday sweaters and she bought me a teddy-dressed-as-santa glove puppet on 28th November because she wanted to be the first person to give me a present.

Madchen (Madchen), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 16:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Nobody judges you too harshly if you misplace a pet and never find it.

My Huckleberry Friend (Horace Mann), Wednesday, 18 February 2004 16:51 (eighteen years ago) link

Yes, but everyone judges you harshly if you keep your child on a collar leash. All we want is consistency.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 19 February 2004 00:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Diapers vs litter box FITE!

Hunter (Hunter), Thursday, 19 February 2004 01:09 (eighteen years ago) link

ew

oops (Oops), Thursday, 19 February 2004 01:25 (eighteen years ago) link

kids, cause i gotta spread my seed! and i know if i had an animal i would kick it, and thats not cool.

todd swiss (eliti), Thursday, 19 February 2004 01:28 (eighteen years ago) link

kids, cause i gotta spread my seed!

This is sick.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 19 February 2004 09:12 (eighteen years ago) link

dude I'm sure he didn't mean on their face.

teeny (teeny), Thursday, 19 February 2004 13:59 (eighteen years ago) link

there's nothing sick about it.

perhaps he's a farmer, and the extra farmhand would be useful.

"here chick chick chick, here chick chick chick"

Kingfish Beatbox (Kingfish), Thursday, 19 February 2004 14:01 (eighteen years ago) link

also, should we frame this debate as "Things that can go get you a sandwich" vs "things are actually ARE in the sandwich"?

sandwich-based debate is so rare nowadays in the public discourse.

Kingfish Beatbox (Kingfish), Thursday, 19 February 2004 14:03 (eighteen years ago) link

twelve years pass...

WHY would anyone choose to have a child instead of a dog

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 15:59 (five years ago) link

i have spent altogether too much time in the company of under-sevens this weekend and neither twitter nor facebook feel like ~safe spaces to vent about how much i dislike them

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 16:00 (five years ago) link

neither is ILX, really

¶ (DJP), Monday, 12 December 2016 16:58 (five years ago) link

grumpy old man lex is gonna be fun

hates: kids, jokes, cooking

barrel of fun, that guy

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:01 (five years ago) link

i love dogs

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:11 (five years ago) link

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:11 (five years ago) link

they do tend to lack self-awareness.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:13 (five years ago) link

So do dogs.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:17 (five years ago) link

hating children is so bizarre to me

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:24 (five years ago) link

fuck dogs

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:31 (five years ago) link

I mean sure sometime I meet a cool dog and generally I like basset hounds but mostly blech keep these slobbering shitting pissing barking child-biting simpletons away from me

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:32 (five years ago) link

I feel the opposite of lex, dogs seem like such a pain compared to children, and they're guaranteed to die within like what 15 years? plus dogs shit all over the sidewalks and smell terrible. now partly it's that there are so many terrible dog owners but let's not let the filthy beasts themselves off the hook.

droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:35 (five years ago) link

i don't think bad smells and too much shit is really an argument you can make against dogs vis-à-vis children

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:38 (five years ago) link

... and slobbering, pissing, puking etc. Don't like either much tbh. Used to like dogs. Children are probably better.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:39 (five years ago) link

dog owners mostly do not expect everyone else to be equally enamoured of their pet, nor do they move through the world as if non-dog owners literally do not exist

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:39 (five years ago) link

lol that is not my experience of dog owners

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:40 (five years ago) link

children stop randomly shitting + pissing (and shedding and slobbering) everywhere around the age of 4 or so. Dogs do it their whole lives.

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:40 (five years ago) link

dogs shit in terrible places their whole miserable lives, for kids it's just for a couple of years, and even there, you don't have to pick the steamy pile off the ground wearing a plastic glove on your hand, feeling its runny warm wretchedness.

also right now my kids are making dinner for me, afterward they'll wash up. I suppose a dog will at least eat wasted scraps off the ground.

droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:42 (five years ago) link

you don't have to pick the steamy pile off the ground wearing a plastic glove on your hand, feeling its runny warm wretchedness.

posts w striking imagery

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:43 (five years ago) link

Generally ok with either, in small doses and one at a time - there are a lot of animals I like more than dogs tho

banfred bann (wins), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:43 (five years ago) link

WHY would anyone choose to have a child instead of a dog

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 10:59 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Less horrifying for the doctors mostly

Evan, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:43 (five years ago) link

jfc all of you

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:44 (five years ago) link

dog owners mostly do not expect everyone else to be equally enamoured of their pet, nor do they move through the world as if non-dog owners literally do not exist

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:39 PM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol that is not my experience of dog owners

― Οὖτις, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:40 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

loooooool outic otm

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:45 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTZ5VpfzoW0

salthigh, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:48 (five years ago) link

children stop randomly shitting + pissing (and shedding and slobbering) everywhere around the age of 4 or so. Dogs do it their whole lives.

They do not. You housebreak a dog, it's housebroken p. much forever unless a) very sick or b) very scared.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:49 (five years ago) link

Anyway I echo imago's "jfc all of you." Kids are great, dogs are great, life is a fucking miracle in its diversity.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:49 (five years ago) link

parents are e a s i l y the rudest people i encounter in public

it's not even close. cyclists, runners, dog walkers, couples, no one can touch parents for lack of pavement etiquette and refusal to acknowledge that there are other people in public spaces

every dog owner i've ever known is hyper-aware that others might not like dogs and very good at controlling them but the extent to which parents let their kids scream and run around and yell and generally bother other people is unbelievable

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:51 (five years ago) link

lex i think your perspective here is one of a dumb ageist

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:52 (five years ago) link

Do dogs find a good old folks home for you, or better yet put you up in their houses?

Bnad, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:52 (five years ago) link

wait the only sort of "ageism" that actually matters is discrimination among adults, not someone disliking being around toddlers

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:54 (five years ago) link

http://www.rantchic.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/kids-on-leashes-4.jpg

Evan, Monday, 12 December 2016 17:55 (five years ago) link

i have the impulse that kids are annoying etc but i try to fight it away, it makes me feel like a misanthrope. similarly some parents do appear lax or like they are happy for their child to be everyone else's problem, in public, but again i assume they know more about being a parent than me.

sometimes i look at the behaviour of children, their neediness, their self-centred greed, and it's like they are concentrated embodiments of all the worst traits of humanity. then on the other hand sometimes they seem like concentrated embodiments of our best traits, their curiosity, their imaginations, their ability to show love without a second thought.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 12 December 2016 17:57 (five years ago) link

last xmas my three nephews started trolling me about being bald, which was mostly hilarious and sort of sweet but did kind of remind me of like quintessential playground bullying, apart from the fact that i am 33 and i can deal with their high-pitched little barbs, plus it only lasted about 45 minutes or so, consisting of a chant of "you have no hair".

my sister intervened to explain that this kind of thing might upset a person, at which point my youngest nephew said "but i like to call you the bald man".

the next day my oldest nephew, who is like 10 years old, came and sat on my knee while i was watching telly, and in a fully earnest tone after staring at my one-grade all over for a moment said "you actually have some hair. it's not true that you have no hair. and you have a beard too."

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:01 (five years ago) link

plenty of adults embody humanity's best traits and also you can have a conversation with them/they don't scream seemingly non-stop/they don't launch themselves at you physically

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:24 (five years ago) link

If it weren't for children, there wouldn't be any grownups. So, no art, music, science, porn, vodka, pizza, internet, or bicycles. No you.

So this is kind of like saying "humans: classic or dud." Which is certainly a debatable question! But if you think there's something worthwhile about the species continuing, then somebody has to have some kids. Doesn't have to be you, of course. De gustibus and all that.

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:26 (five years ago) link

plenty of adults embody humanity's best traits and also you can have a conversation with them/they don't scream seemingly non-stop/they don't launch themselves at you physically

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 1:24 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is a sad post

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:27 (five years ago) link

i prefer dogs to children. i prefer dogs to adults tbh.

harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:28 (five years ago) link

i was at a friend's house on saturday night and there were lots of dogs. one of them, an 11 year old pitbull called Findlay who've only met two or three times, came over for a pet from me and leaned against me for a hug. A little chihuahua sat on my lap for about half an hour. my idea of a good time

harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:30 (five years ago) link

If it weren't for children, there wouldn't be any grownups.

Feeble imo.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:32 (five years ago) link

lex seems p miserable - no laffs, no kids, only horrible club music to listen to, reliant on others for food

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:33 (five years ago) link

jim that sounds like a wonderful party :))))

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:34 (five years ago) link

I dont understand why people feel the need to disparage children. To me this feels like a kind of prejudice. Kids are mistreated all around the world and they are not equipped to advocate for themselves. What kind of monster would think it's important to express their "dislike" of a group like that?

This has nothing to do with whether people should want to have children. It would probably be better for the world to adopt some version of an antinatalist position tbh. All I'm saying is that children are people.

Treeship, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:35 (five years ago) link

lex seems p miserable - no laffs, no kids, only horrible club music to listen to, reliant on others for food

you sound like my republican uncle

donut, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:38 (five years ago) link

Sounds like the voiceover to an advert for some (weird) charity.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:38 (five years ago) link

This has nothing to do with whether people should want to have children.

otm.

but actively hating kids is def misanthropic

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:38 (five years ago) link

ty treesh

antidog ppl itt maybe even worse tho

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:40 (five years ago) link

sometimes i look at the behaviour of children, their neediness, their self-centred greed, and it's like they are concentrated embodiments of all the worst traits of humanity. then on the other hand sometimes they seem like concentrated embodiments of our best traits, their curiosity, their imaginations, their ability to show love without a second thought.

this is very OTM

the late great, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:40 (five years ago) link

their ability to show love without a second thought.

Positively doglike.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:41 (five years ago) link

is taking sides like which group do you prefer, or taking sides like who would win in a fight? either way i guess my answer is "most animals"

Karl Malone, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:43 (five years ago) link

Evil guide dog excepted.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:43 (five years ago) link

Now that Treeship has said all that needed to be said, this thread can get down to nattering.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:46 (five years ago) link

Kids are mistreated all around the world and they are not equipped to advocate for themselves. What kind of monster would think it's important to express their "dislike" of a group like that?

otm, kids are the most vulnerable people in the world, they are utterly dependent on adults to take care of them and people exploit their vulnerability on a daily basis. "oh but they are loud and they irritate me" v cool opinion lex!

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:49 (five years ago) link

but i do like children a lot, no hatred there. babies are weird little amazing aliens. watching toddlers learn how to communicate and connect things together is living edutainment. 4-7 year olds can be the most fun people to engage with, when they're completely freaking out about who broke a toy or whatever. and even terrible adolescents are kind of amazing for the emotional split they go through, the realization that they're going to die and that their mom or dad is going to die, the first grappling with the idea that there might not be a god or that most people just worship the god or gods that they were assigned according to their place of birth, but also on the flip side their minds and experiences are rapidly expanding and they're kind of scoping out the boundaries of their lives, getting a taste of what their personal limits might be and how far they might able to go. it's all good.

on the other hand, you haven't LIVED if you haven't wrestled with a labrador retriever in the snow

Karl Malone, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:49 (five years ago) link

obv that should be when they're NOTcompletely freaking out about who broke a toy or whatever

if someone out there really enjoys engaging with 4-7 year olds when they're freaking about who broke the toy, then that person is The Chosen One

Karl Malone, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:50 (five years ago) link

tbh that wasn't very obvious

¶ (DJP), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:52 (five years ago) link

maybe lex is just angling for a DHS Administration of Children and Families post in the Trump admin

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 18:55 (five years ago) link

sometimes i look at the behaviour of children, their neediness, their self-centred greed, and it's like they are concentrated embodiments of all the worst traits of humanity. then on the other hand sometimes they seem like concentrated embodiments of our best traits, their curiosity, their imaginations, their ability to show love without a second thought.

wow, it's almost like they are ... people

na (NA), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:57 (five years ago) link

the answer is : your own kids > your own pets > other people's pets > other people's kids

na (NA), Monday, 12 December 2016 18:59 (five years ago) link

dogs are much easier, kids are more rewarding

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:06 (five years ago) link

it's like take sides - eating ice cream or training for a marathon. i find eating ice cream much more enjoyable than training for a marathon but i am not proud of the ice cream after it has been eaten u kno

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:07 (five years ago) link

may I suggest a different brand of ice cream, or perhaps making your own

¶ (DJP), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:07 (five years ago) link

wow, it's almost like they are ... people

or like all people are children, i guess.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:28 (five years ago) link

for goodness sake it is not "monstrous" to be uninterested in or annoyed by children, or simply to prefer not to have them around ever

and i see way more everyday misanthropy directed at perfectly harmless subsets of adults. it's fine to be annoyed and vent! it doesn't make anyone a weirdo. though this kind of rabid proscribed positivity around children does feel quite alienating. i don't tell people who dislike dogs that they're monsters.

lex pretend, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:28 (five years ago) link

tbf lex is basically a giant baby

xp

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:29 (five years ago) link

come now, folks, we must remember that lex is the real victim here

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:30 (five years ago) link

Nobody is the victim

banfred bann (wins), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:31 (five years ago) link

nah I'm cool

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:33 (five years ago) link

hating children is the ultimate stereotypical misanthropy in an adult. prob could name 50 books or movies with it as a theme in about two minutes.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:36 (five years ago) link

101 Dalmatians has both!

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:39 (five years ago) link

yeah like dr alan grant but he learns to get on with children after his experience with animals that have escaped captivity and then at the end he is in a helicopter

banfred bann (wins), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:40 (five years ago) link

- Computer.m4v

banfred bann (wins), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:44 (five years ago) link

I don't get hating kids, for reasons eloquently put by Treesh and LG. Hate the parents, not the kids imho, if you must.

Dogs on the other hand...

Le Bateau Ivre, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:44 (five years ago) link

Children are people and thus fine, being born is a disaster and I refuse to have any role in making a person be born, I don't like dogs, I like cats, animals are ridiculous and fascinating in their diversity and there's only one kind of human.

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Monday, 12 December 2016 19:46 (five years ago) link

there are lots of very fucked up things about 'childhood' and the way a lot of people treat & control children, & I can understand feeling anger at that, esp the ego on some parents & the whole authoritarian worldview that kids become tokens of for some people. kids bring out really dark power impulses in a lot of people

ogmor, Monday, 12 December 2016 19:55 (five years ago) link

there's so many things wrong with lex i doubt his anti-kids stance would even crack the top 20 if anything it just confirms for me how excellent kids are

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:02 (five years ago) link

wow, it's almost like they are ... people

― na

ding ding ding

the late great, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:02 (five years ago) link

preemptive clusterfuck summary: fuckin' ilx

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:04 (five years ago) link

it doesn't make anyone a weirdo.

it is fundamentally weird to me.... " i really don't like the youngest members of my species"

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:04 (five years ago) link

If I had to choose between spending one hour in a room with 50 toddlers or 50 adult Trump voters I'd take the toddlers in a New York minute.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:05 (five years ago) link

cool

banfred bann (wins), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:14 (five years ago) link

lol

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:16 (five years ago) link

it is fundamentally weird to me.... " i really don't like the youngest members of my species"

agreed - it's just a bizarre affectation from ppl with very low emotional maturity - otm above whoever said that hating children is the classical descriptor of fictional villains. it's bc it's so absurd.

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:17 (five years ago) link

bonus points if they tilt their chin up and sniff while saying haughtily, "well i was /never/ a child."

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:18 (five years ago) link

What about people who don't actively hate kids but would rather not have anything to do with them

ultros ultros-ghali, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:20 (five years ago) link

Asking for a friend

ultros ultros-ghali, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:20 (five years ago) link

that's fine imo. i love spending time w/ my two little kids more than pretty much anything but tbh i dont always feel comfortable or confident talking to other people's kids.

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:26 (five years ago) link

Agatha Trunchbull: I have never been able to understand why small children are so disgusting. They're the bane of my life. They're like insects: they should be got rid of as early as possible.

[makes spraying gesture]

Agatha Trunchbull: Psst! My idea of a perfect school is one in which there are no children... at all. Wouldn't you agree, Miss Honey?

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:33 (five years ago) link

I was thinking more Mr. Foreclosure from the War Between the Pitiful Teachers and the Splendid Kids but sure that works

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:41 (five years ago) link

here's the trunchbull quote i was trying to find: "They're all mistakes, children! Filthy, nasty things. Glad I never was one."

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:47 (five years ago) link

of course hating children has its own TV Tropes page

Mordy, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:47 (five years ago) link

what's the alt-right line on children

apart from 'recruits'

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:51 (five years ago) link

Kids are noisy and disruptive and demanding and a lot of work! I don't have any but I work in a school with about 730 of them and I find it exhausting to perform the emotional dance of keeping their attention and interacting w them for a few hours much less the next 25-30 years. Maybe it's less tiring when you know them well and you don't have to perform but for me it's all emoting and trying to read them 24/7. Not to mention the noise level. I need ppl around me who I can tell to go away and amuse themselves for up to a week at a time, so obv kids r not for me. Okay. I mean I don't hate 'em but jesus I don't have what it takes. It's okay.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Monday, 12 December 2016 20:53 (five years ago) link

at what point are children capable of making sandwiches?

mookieproof, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:55 (five years ago) link

I resent children for being in the midst of childhood, and dogs for their flexibility.

Evan, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:57 (five years ago) link

at what point are children capable of making sandwiches?

my daughter's progressed to this point and she's 8

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:57 (five years ago) link

but she's been flipping over records on the turntable for me since 4, so there's that

Οὖτις, Monday, 12 December 2016 20:58 (five years ago) link

it is true that I don't care much for other kids besides mine, I would never work in an elementary or middle school or in daycare. kids are hilarious though so if you hate hilarity then yeah boo to kids.

Dogs can be hilarious too but usually only when they're risking their lives and I'm not supposed to enjoy that I gather

droit au butt (Euler), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:06 (five years ago) link

I have a 10 year old black labrador and a teenager with autism and they are both hard work. The dog constantly wants to go for a walk and will follow me about the house to force the issue - even if he has just had a walk. The teenage boy is going through his violent and angry young man period, would love to be able to turn it back to his loud and annoying child phase - because that was a piece of piss by comparison:P

Children can be annoying as fuck, but I do think people who learn to chill and be more patient and tolerant will be happier in the long run.

calzino, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:22 (five years ago) link

i dont hate children but i don't really want to spend time with kids too much, like it's fine, even pleasant, to go visit a friend and their little toddler. but i wouldn't want to be a teacher at a school (especially high school).

harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:24 (five years ago) link

i was talking w/a friend who has twins, both in kindergarten at our kid's school. one of them has ADHD and she tries so hard, she's a single mother, and she deals w/people all the time. she said someone said to her, point-blank recently about her son when he was having some issues, "what's WRONG with that kid?" idk, maybe some people just shouldn't talk about children or ever think about them except to not hit them in the crosswalk.

nomar, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:25 (five years ago) link

I'm with you, Lex, after my previously angelic toddler drew blood from my face today after a meltdown about going in the car
He shares your musical taste tho

(I don't like other kids much but my own is endlessly fascinating and amazing)

kinder, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:25 (five years ago) link

i'm a high school teacher and i love it! kids that age are inspiring and great fun to be around! but i would never have my own kids. too much work. i can barely keep up with the responsibility of my dog tbh.

the late great, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:27 (five years ago) link

i do think that there's something to be said for the fact that the younger the kids are, the more tolerable. li'l cherubs running around making mischief, eating cookies, making sloppy art, telling you facts they just learned w/wide eyes, make-believing my little pony games, vs dead-eyed teens running around stealing cars, taking oxy, writing terrible journals, reciting conspiracy theories back at you, make-believing my little pony games.

nomar, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:29 (five years ago) link

but, i dunno, ymmv but growing up in real scotland I'm too easily reminded of how psychotic and fucked so many of the boys i grew up with were, and the weird nihilistic stuff that would go on. e.g. a kid i knew threw a brick at a passing train from a bridge when he was like 11 or something, at high school people would take snowballs made from old frozen-over patches of snow that are more like rocks and threw them in a large arc down a flight of stairs that were about the height of a 3 story building with no intended target as long as it hit someone. there was a thing called the grog pit (a common thing in west central scotland as conversations with friends have confirmed) where an unliked member of the cohort would be thrown in and everyone would spit on them, etc. the effeminate boys who would later come out as gay were made fun of day in day out from the age of 8 or 9 and occasionally physically attacked. a lot of the boys doing this sort of stuff are now "normal" adults.

harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:30 (five years ago) link

Yeah my junior high years were something like that. The girls would cut you socially and it devastated me, but the boys would tape whoever was the scapegoat that week to a tree and shoot fireworks at them, spit on each other, threaten to shoot your pets, shoot each other with bb guns.... Good times.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:33 (five years ago) link

I'll never forget that one of my classmates insisted that he shot songbirds with his gun, then took the raw bird meat and hid it under the toppings of his babysitter's pizza and she ate it. Almost definitely fake but

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:35 (five years ago) link

Let's just cancel the years between 10 and 20 is what I'm saying. Possibly 30.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:35 (five years ago) link

10-22 years, ranked:

21
20
19
22
10
11
12
18
16
17
15
13
14

nomar, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:37 (five years ago) link

I grew up with this mischievous little imp who is currently doing life in Dublin and is referred to as Ireland's most prolific serial killer. To me he was Nashy, who would always try and manipulate other kids to do the mischief for him. Never could predict how fucked up he ended up, and he is still linked to a couple of unsolved murders in my area.

calzino, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:38 (five years ago) link

two brothers who were about 10 or 11 at the time, from the neighborhood next to mine, doused a classmate in gasoline and set him on fire.

harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:42 (five years ago) link

yes but like tbh anything over 10 isnt a kid its a shit adult

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Monday, 12 December 2016 21:44 (five years ago) link

Nashy

There was always strong rumours that at the age of 8 this guy pushed a friend into the path of a car, into a collision that killed him. The driver was over the limit which became the main story.

calzino, Monday, 12 December 2016 21:48 (five years ago) link

Yeah some kids are definitely bad news. No argument from me

Treeship, Monday, 12 December 2016 22:08 (five years ago) link

we need to talk about nashy

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, 12 December 2016 22:14 (five years ago) link

nashyvan

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Monday, 12 December 2016 22:19 (five years ago) link

When he first arrived at my junior school I was always very friendly to him, at a point where he was getting bullied, so he will probably kill me first if he ever gets out.

calzino, Monday, 12 December 2016 22:45 (five years ago) link

He doesn't seem to target people who were actually shit towards him back then. So if he does ever get out I will have a lump hammer at the ready.

calzino, Monday, 12 December 2016 22:50 (five years ago) link

did this thread really devolve into "cartoon villains dislike children ergo disliking children makes you a cartoon villain"

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 09:48 (five years ago) link

i mean yes i am aware that we live in an aggressively pro-natal, pro-nuclear family society, this is exactly why i needed to vent for a few minutes

oh and another thing is that 99% of the time having children turns formerly interesting and fun adults into complete bores (the 1% mostly comprises naturally gifted raconteurs who can make any anecdote entertaining). this thread seems evidence of that. it's literally impossible to converse with a parent if their child is also there.

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 09:54 (five years ago) link

Also true that 99% of the time having kids makes you realise how irresponsible and thoughtless and blithely unable to comprehend life changes some people without lids can be

I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 10:42 (five years ago) link

Kids, dammit

I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 10:42 (five years ago) link

Taking sides: People that talk reet vs (sub-human) languages

calzino, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 11:05 (five years ago) link

i think it was more like "disliking children is a classic sign of misanthropy" - i agree children's stories might be coercively normative but i still think, like any other form of misanthropy, it's better to try and step back from the impulse to dislike children, rather than double down on it. i also definitely agree that prejudice against children is actually quite important and bad - we have societies in which children's views are ignored more or they are more marginalised - generally in those societies bad things happened to children.

i mean yeah, i find children and couples can be insufferable, of course they can. but it strikes me as fairly normal that somebody would develop an attachment to their child, or treat it as special. the alternative would probably be some form of abuse.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 11:10 (five years ago) link

children make too much noise, then they grow up and put music on in public places and cause yet more damage to the environment. Dogs don't clean up after themselves but then to see grown people chasing after them with a bag to pick up their excrement is embarrassing, the dog is an adult and has no excuse. children, dogs, children owners, dog owners, car drivers and people who put music on in public places, 2016 has been terrible but all of these have been entrenched for such a long time i wonder if serenity will be lost forever

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:08 (five years ago) link

and I really don't understand who's idea it was to put them on aeroplanes, an aeroplane is an anxiety inducing soul killing experience as it is but this is too much

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:10 (five years ago) link

parents:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CzjiHvNXgAUpxgA.jpg

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:33 (five years ago) link

Jesus wept

Le Bateau Ivre, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:34 (five years ago) link

I knew, KNEW, you'd share that.

Yep, we're all like that. Fortunately, I was neither interesting nor fun before parenthood, so no great loss.

Michael Jones, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:35 (five years ago) link

idk what's meant by "doubling down" on disliking children. i don't tell parents in person that they or their children are boring/annoying, and i can even muster up a smile for children of people i know for...i think 10 mins is my limit. i just hate the experience of being around them and occasionally need to vent this.

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:38 (five years ago) link

there is only so much respite in this world from people who insist on talking at you when you would rather be in the dreamstate, that then they must bring a smaller version of themselves and talk at you about that and then make you hold this thing and talk to it like its 2 years old. Every minute is a minute closer to death that could be spent at peace instead of this torture

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:42 (five years ago) link

and then the looking at you where you are supposed to do the in rapture face. and then the having these thoughts instead of being in a reverie, and the thoughts are so mundane as is putting them on the internet for people to think you are a bad person when you just have waves and waves of anxiety about being trapped by it all

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:47 (five years ago) link

So you don't care for unions either, lex?

how's life, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 12:58 (five years ago) link

it's literally impossible to converse with a parent if their child is also there

literally impossible

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 13:01 (five years ago) link

literally

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 13:01 (five years ago) link

impossible

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 13:01 (five years ago) link

So you don't care for unions either, lex?

They pissed off Zac's dickhead of a parent, so they're doing a fine job imo.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 13:04 (five years ago) link

idk what's meant by "doubling down" on disliking children

i meant more analysing an impulse to see if it's fair or valid. but dunno if everyone is capable of this.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:09 (five years ago) link

not sure where fairness or validity come into a preference regarding one's environment or how one wants to spend time. the moral implications imputed on this thread are very weird. like, can you imagine anyone being called a bad person for not enjoying the company of dogs or cats??? or for saying they'd rather not spend their time in places or around people that make them feel uncomfortable?

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:22 (five years ago) link

So you don't care for unions either, lex?

― how's life, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 12:58 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

to be clear i am pro-unions and anti-selfish parents who even in that situation think the world revolves around their bloody toddler's bloody bedtime story

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:23 (five years ago) link

don't really see it as a moral thing, just can't adopt a worldview that involves me hating strangers, or justifying hatred. children are not a marginal interest like "dogs" or "cats", we were all children - we would not exist if people did not reproduce. the behaviour of children does bother me, i don't consider myself amazingly good with them, but i know that i was probably like that as a child, to one extent or another, or most children are, because they are young and are learning how to behave. equally i guess lack of self-awareness or rude behaviour is not exclusive to children. it might be just catholic of me to talk about resisting base impulses but that also feels like one of the things that separates adults from children, or dogs.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:29 (five years ago) link

not sure where fairness or validity come into a preference regarding one's environment or how one wants to spend time. the moral implications imputed on this thread are very weird. like, can you imagine anyone being called a bad person for not enjoying the company of dogs or cats??? or for saying they'd rather not spend their time in places or around people that make them feel uncomfortable?

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:22 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

imo hating kids is fundamentally as weird as hating women or hating old people

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:30 (five years ago) link

to be clear i am pro-unions and anti-selfish parents who even in that situation think the world revolves around their bloody toddler's bloody bedtime story

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:23 AM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and you're aware that you cherry-picked some dumb asshole and that there are also millions of parents who support unions and worker's rights? christ

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:31 (five years ago) link

im just getting personally annoyed bc i have young son w/ autism and we've been in some intense fucking meltdown episodes in public and have had whole rooms stare at us thinking "what the fuck is wrong with that kid and that family" and i can only imagine someone like lex in that room

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:33 (five years ago) link

you guys are the ones bringing the word "hate" into it

thorough disinterest in children, and active discomfort and dislike of being around them, is not "hatred"

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:35 (five years ago) link

The post had nothing to do with unions.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:35 (five years ago) link

... the one about poor little Zac, that is.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:36 (five years ago) link

it could be that some ppl hate children bc they realize that w/out them they themselves would not be forced to suffer the indignities of a world that consistently fails to appreciate them as the glorious height of human evolution such that their childhood state shares as much similarity to their current godhead status as an egg does to a chicken.

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:39 (five years ago) link

alas who will shed a tear for interlocutors great and mighty, minds engaged in critical questions of our philosophical era, only to be disturbed by a baby w/ a load in its pants. only the whiffs of thine own farts provide succor in these unenlightened times amirite bro

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:40 (five years ago) link

i should step back im sorry lex. there are many moments when i very much prefer not to have kids around, even my own kids. like i said im not particularly comfortable around or confident hanging out w/ kids other than my own unless those kids are maybe playing w/ mine. im not someone w/ the capacity to work w/ little kids all the time and i could never be a teacher or children's social worker.

but ultimately local garda is very much otm, children are not really a marginal interest like a pet, they are young humans, even "thorough disinterest in and active discomfort and dislike of being around them" is ...... suspect .... could you imagine saying that about any other group of humans? women, old people, teenagers...

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:42 (five years ago) link

lol xp

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:42 (five years ago) link

I don't hate [x], I just dislike being around them because they make me uncomfortable

ogmor, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:43 (five years ago) link

constructing strawmen so you can psychoanalyse them, always a worthwhile contribution

xps

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:45 (five years ago) link

no worries man i know you're not engaged in anything valuable w/ your time. after all you've already demonstrated quite clearly that you're not raising children.

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:49 (five years ago) link

could you imagine saying that about any other group of humans?

people, including all of you, say that every day about all sorts of groups of humans. tories, bankers and comic fans are among the groups of humans i generally don't enjoy spending time with, i'm sure you have your list.

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:51 (five years ago) link

after all you've already demonstrated quite clearly that you're not raising children.

― Mordy, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:49 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

too obvious a troll to rise to but i had forgotten the type of parent who are self-congratulatory as well as self-centred

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:52 (five years ago) link

too obvious a troll to rise to but let me rise to it anyway. you're too much of a joke to take seriously in this or any other thread and you have an extreme sense of self-centered haughtiness belied by practically everything i've ever seen you express so this whole thing is pretty much taking a piss bc who gives a fuck if the lex likes or doesn't like anything.

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:53 (five years ago) link

i'm sure the kids will survive whatever withering glares you debase yourself to cast in their direction

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:55 (five years ago) link

Lex, comics fans are a group distinguished by a voluntary interest. Children, like old people, people with disabilities, etc. are a group distinguished by factors outside their control. Like those two groups in particular they are often taken advantage of. Xp

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 14:56 (five years ago) link

lex pretend is being very reasonable and its ok that he is not raising children, there are already a lot of them and the physical environment they are going to live in in 50 years time is going to be challenging for many, that is the future we have made for them

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:00 (five years ago) link

who gives a fuck if the lex likes or doesn't like anything.

― Mordy, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:53 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

idk you're the one who keeps responding to an offhand grouse on the internet

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:03 (five years ago) link

#nodads forever, christ

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:03 (five years ago) link

dunno when saer became a curmudgeon.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:03 (five years ago) link

This is not about having children or not. This is about whether it is cool to say you "don't like" some group of people, saer. I don't want to have children either fwiw xp

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:04 (five years ago) link

Children, like old people, people with disabilities, etc. are a group distinguished by factors outside their control. Like those two groups in particular they are often taken advantage of. Xp

― Treeship, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:56 PM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

as are dogs

but if you don't like dogs that's fine, it has no moral implications about your character whatsoever

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:04 (five years ago) link

Dogs aren't people though.

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:05 (five years ago) link

it's been a while since the lex has been given the opportunity to revel in the spotlight like this, good work everyone

Rush Limbaugh and Lou Reed doing sex with your parents (bizarro gazzara), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:05 (five years ago) link

i get it now. you were born a dog and you begrudge those of us who were born human babies.

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:05 (five years ago) link

what do you think you'd think of the child you were?

xpost

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:05 (five years ago) link

no worries man i know you're not engaged in anything valuable w/ your time. after all you've already demonstrated quite clearly that you're not raising children.

leaving aside what an execrable sentiment this is, you're doing a good job of substantiating lex's gripes about parents

ogmor, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:06 (five years ago) link

my dislike of lex has nothing to do w/ any progeny i have produced and in fact my enmity i believe predates my parenthood

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:08 (five years ago) link

Mordy otm throughout lex is a deeply unserious person fit for nothing but mockery

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:08 (five years ago) link

dunno when saer became a curmudgeon

I have had some unfortunate experiences of late, serenity came under severe multi-pronged attack and anxiety rose to new levels. I am hoping it will fade again soon!

I think its ok to say you don't like groups of people, where there are groups of people there is likely to be some kind of piercing noise or anxiety inducing activity

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:09 (five years ago) link

Its ok to want to make it through the day with mental equilibrium in tact!

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:10 (five years ago) link

What if I said I didn't like people with facial disfigurements. They make me uncomfortable.

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:11 (five years ago) link

hating kids is fundamentally as weird as hating women or hating old people

It's reductive, not "weird." I agree with a lot of lex's sentiments on this thread!

As a parent, your kids are either cute and friendly and great OR they're a pain in my ass and if they turn out to be anything other than disasters as adults it will be a miracle because you are an indulgent weirdo and I disagree with your style.

Disliking children is really an indirect dislike of parents. Parents are now and have always been the real enemy.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:12 (five years ago) link

More trenchantly, what if you said you didn't like LGBT people because they make you uncomfortable? Or Jewish people? Or African-Americans? Those would all be rightly condemned as being patently unacceptable and the mark of a cretinous piece of shit.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:14 (five years ago) link

equating children with LGBT or african-american people is probably the most cretinous opinion expressed thus far (aside from mordy's troll one)

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:15 (five years ago) link

ould you imagine saying that about any other group of humans?

people, including all of you, say that every day about all sorts of groups of humans. tories, bankers and comic fans are among the groups of humans i generally don't enjoy spending time with, i'm sure you have your list.

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 9:51 AM (twenty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lmao, you can't see the difference between children as one type of category of humans vs tories and comic fans as others? you realize everyday people say they "i don't hate LGBTQ people, i just actively dislike being around them and feel discomfort in their company"

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:15 (five years ago) link

Why? Children have as much control over who they are as the other groups do.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:15 (five years ago) link

always useful to be reassured that privileged wyt dudes really have no fucking idea what constitutes societal oppression tho!

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:15 (five years ago) link

ah i see this has been addressed lol xp

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:15 (five years ago) link

always useful to be reassured that privileged wyt dudes really have no fucking idea what constitutes societal oppression tho!

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:15 AM (four seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:16 (five years ago) link

you don't know anything about me but thanks for assuming im a white dude

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:16 (five years ago) link

Its ok to want to make it through the day with mental equilibrium in tact!

fair enough. i feel like if we had started with "i choose not to spend time around children" nobody would be arguing now.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:17 (five years ago) link

it's just an absurd affect. my kids are anxiety produced and cause me heartburn regularly. but also the entire history of human civilization - and in fact life of all kind - comes down to parents having children. parents should not feel any more smug than a mosquito laying larva maybe, but to write off progeny in general as being distasteful is the stuff of disney villainy and somehow within the same ballpark as malthusian nihilism.

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:18 (five years ago) link

lol yeah there are no organizations worldwide dedicated to the rights of children, who are never oppressed

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:18 (five years ago) link

. i feel like if we had started with "i choose not to spend time around children" nobody would be arguing now.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:17 AM (thirty-nine seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree with that

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:18 (five years ago) link

More trenchantly, what if you said you didn't like LGBT people because they make you uncomfortable? Or Jewish people? Or African-Americans? Those would all be rightly condemned as being patently unacceptable and the mark of a cretinous piece of shit.

― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:14 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

equating children with LGBT or african-american people is probably the most cretinous opinion expressed thus far (aside from mordy's troll one)

― lex pretend, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:15 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark

lollllll Phil mentioned 3 different groups and lex only mentioned 2 i wonder

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:19 (five years ago) link

like yeah I realize that the life of a child in the London suburbs is obvs different than the life of a child in Somalia but ffs

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:19 (five years ago) link

xp I noticed that as well but one battle at a time for me

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:20 (five years ago) link

whenever lex talks about ppl being privileged i remember that photo he posted of himself lounging on a cruise ship in view of a tropical island and remember that he's more privileged than probably 99% of ilx posters.

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:20 (five years ago) link

https://www.childhelp.org/child-abuse-statistics/

why would I suggest children suffer oppression it is truly a mystery

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:22 (five years ago) link

guys i don't think this angle of argument is a good look

who is extremely unqualified to review this pop album (BradNelson), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:25 (five years ago) link

Children are not oppressed as a class. Lex is right. But many children face oppression and a lot of them have hard lives and it is gauche to act like they are little more than irritating pets people want to force on you.

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:28 (five years ago) link

Tbh i dont think i actually like being around children, especially. I was a teacher and got moved from high school to middle school and haaaatttted it. But like, i don't feel righteous in having limited patience and empathy ya know.

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:29 (five years ago) link

that's exactly how i feel. i feel like a curmudgeon or a dickhead if i get narky feelings towards children. they don't know any better than to behave as they do, they are essentially having fun, trying to learn about life, mostly p harmless. maybe that's overly self-flagellating but i don't think so.

it's the same to me as feeling waves of misanthropy but never defining myself as a misanthropist, trying to see positivity in people, trying to recognise when negativity might be coming from my own problems or my own negative experiences.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:31 (five years ago) link

misanthrope not misanthropist, god...

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:32 (five years ago) link

Everybody here trying to outdo each other in trenchant commentary about how bad and rong Lex is about children is really ...something

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:34 (five years ago) link

I periodically have to spend time with 2 of them now and I dread it, the looks of expectation from their parents and grandparents as inside inner peace is being obliterated

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:34 (five years ago) link

Children are not oppressed as a class. Lex is right. But many children face oppression and a lot of them have hard lives and it is gauche to act like they are little more than irritating pets people want to force on you.

― Treeship, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:28 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yea i agree with this. i don't feel the antipathy toward lex that others do itt. lex is smart, i value his thoughts on a lot of things, he is prob one of my favorite posters in certain ILM threads, his support of women and POC artists throughout his writing career is awesome. i just tihnk his opinion itt is incredibly small-minded and dumb. there are 2 billion kids in the world ffs. 1 billion of them live in poverty, they are vulnerable group of humans and are abused and denied of their value all the time. i don't think it is an interesting or fun opinion to celebrate how much they annoy you esp when you are basically just tihnking about rich kids in strollers in london

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:37 (five years ago) link

Everybody here trying to outdo each other in trenchant commentary about how bad and rong Lex is about children is really ...something

― El Tomboto, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 10:34 AM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ill cop to this sure

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:37 (five years ago) link

guys i don't think this angle of argument is a good look

You're probably right and I shouldn't have taken the bait.

I'll just leave it at "Expressing discomfort at being around people for their innate attributes is pretty shitty."

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:37 (five years ago) link

preemptive clusterfuck summary: fuckin' ilx

― Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Monday, December 12, 2016 8:04 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:39 (five years ago) link

At least it's not about the election.

Treeship, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:42 (five years ago) link

arguably this last election was between a child and a hawk!!!!11!!!

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:45 (five years ago) link

And everyone's moms and dads are to blame

Evan, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 15:53 (five years ago) link

sad!

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:01 (five years ago) link

children are a worse pizza topping than animals in general but a better pizza topping than dogs in particular

dogs in particular and animals in general are both more welcome in bars tho

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:25 (five years ago) link

Dogs in pubs <333333

Such joy just thinking about them

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:29 (five years ago) link

I like pub dogs because they are exactly the right duration of dog for me

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:31 (five years ago) link

what about dogs in a pub that serves child-topped pizza

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:38 (five years ago) link

An enormous dog stood up and put his paws on my shoulders and I had a meltdown, this in the house that has the two childrens in it, its like a house of horrors

saer, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:39 (five years ago) link

what about dogs in a pub that serves child-topped pizza

vs?

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:41 (five years ago) link

children running a pizza pub for dogs

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:44 (five years ago) link

former xp

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:45 (five years ago) link

the smile of a dog who knows who the good boy is <3

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 16:58 (five years ago) link

surprised you don't consider it an insult to call a dog "boy"

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:02 (five years ago) link

I find it exhausting to perform the emotional dance of keeping their attention and interacting w them for a few hours much less the next 25-30 years. Maybe it's less tiring when you know them well and you don't have to perform but for me it's all emoting and trying to read them 24/7.

This is illuminating, but also at odds with my experience.

You know that saying that dogs have owners and cats have staff? My children are on their best behavior for others (to them, a babysitter or teacher is an authority figure). They tend to treat me as staff.

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:05 (five years ago) link

lol yes that's even more terrifying

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:12 (five years ago) link

A propos of upthread I know ppl with kids who you can still have a conversation with while the kids amuse themselves, and then I know ones where the child is used to interrupting by yelling and demanding immediate attention and the parent obliges every time, which isn't about the nature of children as much as boundaries and compromises parents make. It's still extremely tedious though.

My mother did a good bit of hand-wringing to me on the phone last night over her grief in not having more grandchildren. She says out of the 4 kids she birthed, you'd think she'd get more than one grandson out of it, and I especially should hurry up and give her grand-daughters to dote on. I'm like, sure, figure out how I'm going to ship them to you to be raised and you're going to explain to my dad that in your retirement years of leisure you decided to be a parent all over again.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:19 (five years ago) link

A propos of upthread I know ppl with kids who you can still have a conversation with while the kids amuse themselves, and then I know ones where the child is used to interrupting by yelling and demanding immediate attention and the parent obliges every time, which isn't about the nature of children as much as boundaries and compromises parents make. It's still extremely tedious though.

the nadir i've witnessed of the latter was one friend talking about her mother's breast cancer to another friend (with toddler), and mid-sentence the latter just...switched her attention to her child with no warning or acknowledgement

most conversations are not as serious as that, fortunately, but the tendency to abruptly abandon conversations when children wander up is pretty common in parents

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:27 (five years ago) link

please allow me to repeat myself: parents are now and have always been the real enemy.

Especially when they want become GRANDPARENTS. the horror.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:30 (five years ago) link

Especially when they want become GRANDPARENTS. the horror.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:30 (five years ago) link

the tendency to abruptly abandon conversations when children wander up is pretty common in parents

And without any "excuse me" etc. Parenting totally erodes people's manners and they act like oh well it's because I'm a dad now! Sorry, no, not acceptable. Chew your food first, then talk, and don't use your kid's vernacular when talking about yourself. It's not funny. You're the grown-up.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:33 (five years ago) link

I genuinely believe that there is a certain subset of people who welcome the birth of their offspring with no small degree of joy that they can now engage in public improprieties reserved only for breeders. And they're horrible people and I feel like I can spot them from all the way across the biggest playground in my city.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:36 (five years ago) link

special circle in hell reserved for adults who say "I have to go potty" about themselves

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:37 (five years ago) link

i think the issue of there existing kids that have shitty lives is somewhat separate to lex not being delighted by being around kids (probably in fairness likely to be kids that dont have shitty lives)

i speak as a former kid with a shitty life and not as a general fan of lex but this got a bit ridic tbh

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:37 (five years ago) link

curious as to why lex was so inundated by under-sevens in the first place

mookieproof, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:39 (five years ago) link

i think the issue of there existing kids that have shitty lives is somewhat separate to lex not being delighted by being around kids

oh sure it is i agree . lex is prob talking about rich kids in london but instead he frames it as "why would anyone have kids? you can't talk to them, they interrupt you, they are loud and annoying , fuck these monsters" etc

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:41 (five years ago) link

and tombot otm re parents not kids

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:42 (five years ago) link

i agree with those hypothetical questions tho

i love kids and i love to give them back and i love to judge parents as soon as an otherwise adorable bundle of potential person irritates me in the slightest

why would anyone choose to own on in 2016 tho i mean its a terrible idea.

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:44 (five years ago) link

curious as to why lex was so inundated by under-sevens in the first place

― mookieproof, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 5:39 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

got a few too many friends with them now (luckily plenty without, and without any intentions of having them, as well). the various social gatherings all only got good once all the parents and children left. the worst offenders were strangers though, may i never again end up in a christmas fair like the one populated by apparently 5 million screaming toddlers running straight into you from all directions and their awful parents

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:50 (five years ago) link

they can smell sneer you know

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:52 (five years ago) link

i totally understand people not enjoying the company of children and never wanting to spawn, but what kind of Christmas fair isn't going to be a child magnet? or at least a parents-dragging-their-unwilling-and-unhappy-kids-around magnet?

Our Sweet Fredrest (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:53 (five years ago) link

i've learned my lesson! i was expecting at least mulled wine and snacks and somewhere reasonably peaceful to sit. there were none of these things. i lasted 10 horrendous minutes

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:55 (five years ago) link

mulled wine makes parenting so much easier, and then so much harder

Our Sweet Fredrest (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:57 (five years ago) link

totally forgot Mordy wrote those Jacob Two Two books

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 17:59 (five years ago) link

i actually think i know one of his kids (or maybe it's his nephew)

Mordy, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:07 (five years ago) link

i think the issue of there existing kids that have shitty lives is somewhat separate to lex not being delighted by being around kids

dunno really. a lot more abuse probably happened in the era of "kids should be soon and not heard".

getting irate about kids interrupting or barging in on conversations seems pretty childish in itself. yeah i prefer if i can talk to adults but equally kids need attention more than me and might not understand it if they don't get it.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:34 (five years ago) link

*seen and not heard

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:34 (five years ago) link

the kids are OK. and here's why.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:36 (five years ago) link

the "hating children = misanthropy" thing is interesting, I feel like there is also a particular kind of misanthrope who is very sentimental about children and prefers children to other adults. (kind of like misanthropic animal-lovers I guess?)

soref, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:47 (five years ago) link

you're thinking of Tony Soprano

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:50 (five years ago) link

roald dahl

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:51 (five years ago) link

tho dunno if he was a shit to his kids as well as wives

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:52 (five years ago) link

lol, Dahl and Spike Milligan were the specific two I was thinking of, but I think it is a real phenomenon

soref, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:52 (five years ago) link

I thought they both disliked children?

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:53 (five years ago) link

Dahl definitely.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:54 (five years ago) link

I think Dahl identified with children, certainly, particularly in terms of fear and distrust towards adult humans

soref, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:56 (five years ago) link

getting irate about kids interrupting or barging in on conversations seems pretty childish in itself.

what is this exaggeration? irritated ≠ irate

the "hating children = misanthropy" thing is interesting, I feel like there is also a particular kind of misanthrope who is very sentimental about children and prefers children to other adults. (kind of like misanthropic animal-lovers I guess?)

― soref, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 6:47 PM (three minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

all the stuff upthread about children being the perfect pure embodiment of various human attributes seemed misanthropic to me. like adults' qualities aren't good enough or something!

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:57 (five years ago) link

would be weird if dahl turned out to be a misanthrope as he is the source of one of the fictional examples of children-disliking misanthropes cited earlier as evidence of er something

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:58 (five years ago) link

jenny diski on dahl: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v16/n08/jenny-diski/stinker

RD is my dad's mum's sister's husband's brother -- he had a v bad rep in our wing of the family (i never met him tho i met the sister and the husband once)

mark s, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 18:58 (five years ago) link

xxp yeah, this idea that children are superior to adults because adults are all compromised and fall short of some dubious ideal of purity (not accusing any of the children-defenders on this thread of thinking this way or being misanthropes)

soref, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:01 (five years ago) link

don't think it's wrong to try and discuss the differences between children and adults itt - it wasn't framed in terms of superiority either. it's not about superiority, it's about power and expectations.

if you look back at what i said, i said children seemed to have both a capacity to be more innocent but also to behave in a more base, destructive way. but that's minus any real power, screaming for a second dessert or something, which kind of goes to the heart of it for me. there's a power imbalance between adults and children. we shouldn't expect them to behave better than us.

personally i look at myself and imagine i was probably similar to the child i see running amok for five minutes, or just as self-centred, or just as lacking in self-awareness. perhaps some people look back at their childhood with a certainty they behaved perfectly, perhaps they look at their current selves with that certainty - that must be nice.

misanthropy towards adults is at least based on some sort of equal system of choice and power, though there's still too much revelling in it, or too much assumption in popular culture that hating things means you are clever. but you know, the world right now is not built very well to stop people feeling misanthropy for legitimate reasons.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:09 (five years ago) link

like a child approaching a parent to interrupt a conversation with another adult - who in that situation needs the attention?

if this thread is actually about bad parenting, then fine. but judging children for being children is essentially pretending you were never a child.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:10 (five years ago) link

this idea that children are superior to adults because adults are all compromised and fall short of some dubious ideal of purity

J.D. Salinger to thread

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:11 (five years ago) link

babies are cool

i was playing with my 6 year old nephew this weekend and have surprisingly warmed up to kids that age

but ya small doses

i can put up with dogs longer because they don't have to be babied so much and aren't as smart

F♯ A♯ (∞), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:12 (five years ago) link

tyread is actually about xcomparing kids to animals

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:14 (five years ago) link

like a child approaching a parent to interrupt a conversation with another adult - who in that situation needs the attention?

if one of the adults is talking about her mother's terminal cancer, they take precedence over anything other than an actual emergency

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:17 (five years ago) link

that anecdote sounds like the parent's fault, not the child's.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:18 (five years ago) link

both io and lex were talking about the parents' behaviour there yes

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:20 (five years ago) link

I find parents more problematic than kids at times, but I'd still take cats over anything.

Everything Moves Towards The Sun (Ross), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:20 (five years ago) link

both io and lex were talking about the parents' behaviour there yes

fuck off

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:22 (five years ago) link

/A propos of upthread I know ppl with kids who you can still have a conversation with while the kids amuse themselves, and then I know ones where the child is used to interrupting by yelling and demanding immediate attention and the parent obliges every time, which isn't about the nature of children as much as boundaries and compromises parents make. It's still extremely tedious though./

the nadir i've witnessed of the latter was one friend talking about her mother's breast cancer to another friend (with toddler), and mid-sentence the latter just...switched her attention to her child with no warning or acknowledgement

most conversations are not as serious as that, fortunately, but the tendency to abruptly abandon conversations when children wander up is pretty common in parents

these are the posts

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:23 (five years ago) link

i don't think you can compare one random act of massive rudeness to every instance in which a parent might interrupt a conversation to listen to their child.

sorry i swore at you - i just don't get what your view is based on these interjections.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:25 (five years ago) link

One can see plenty of shitty parents out there (roughly in proportion to the overall percentage of shitty people).

But IME most parents are terrified and exhausted and completely winging it 94.3% of the time. Personally I'm up around 96% right now.

Sorry yr parent friends are boring you; maybe they aren't aware of how much you depend on them to entertain you. Maybe they're going through a boring phase just now (because they're tired and scared and anxious and, again, completely winging it) and will return to being the cool hip people you once knew later. Maybe not. I don't know.

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:26 (five years ago) link

WTF is this 300-post thread full of invective even?

The Pleasure Principal (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:27 (five years ago) link

hate to ljsplain this (actually i lie, i love to lol) but this is the situation

some ppl are uneasy around children for w/e reason

some ppl adore children oo coo otty potty bum

if these two camps respect one another's positions then we will have a functional society

Dave Plaintive rapper with classical training (imago), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:27 (five years ago) link

if you look back at what i said, i said children seemed to have both a capacity to be more innocent but also to behave in a more base, destructive way. but that's minus any real power, screaming for a second dessert or something, which kind of goes to the heart of it for me. there's a power imbalance between adults and children. we shouldn't expect them to behave better than us.

And not to get all "it takes a village" here but children don't just absorb their social and moral cues from their parents and grandparents, they absorb them from everyone around them. Treating them like pestilent little pariahs probably not a good idea.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:28 (five years ago) link

obviously lex should just cut all the parents out of his life; it's better for everyone

it won't help on the sidewalks, but life is sadly imperfect

mookieproof, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:31 (five years ago) link

some ppl are uneasy around children for w/e reason

some ppl adore children oo coo otty potty bum

if these two camps respect one another's positions then we will have a functional society

yeah louis it's fairly easy to come in and say this.

the truth of the thread is it began by someone saying they hated children, the word "hated" was used, then subsequently the hatred was toned down to a diet version of "would prefer not to be around them" - which is fine. no problem with people choosing how to spend their time.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:32 (five years ago) link

the truth of the thread is it began by someone saying they hated children, the word "hated" was used

stop lying and exaggerating you ridiculously overdramatic person

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:33 (five years ago) link

Xps he did say that was the nadir of what io was talking about! just didn't think it fair to say either is "blaming the child"

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:33 (five years ago) link

the word "hated" was used

By lex?

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:34 (five years ago) link

you have to wonder about the motivation behind interpreting "i dislike being around children and am annoyed by them and their parents" as "i hate all children and they make me an irate monster"

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:34 (five years ago) link

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

― lex pretend, Monday, December 12, 2016 12:11 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:34 (five years ago) link

As an adult, hanging out near the elementary school playground every day is finally YOUR choice.

Evan, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:35 (five years ago) link

you know who loved children?

Our Sweet Fredrest (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:35 (five years ago) link

Humbert Humbert

Our Sweet Fredrest (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:36 (five years ago) link

oh shit now I don't know what to think

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:37 (five years ago) link

xp Jimmy Savile

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:38 (five years ago) link

He loved corpses too, so he doesn't really count.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:42 (five years ago) link

you know who loved children?

― Our Sweet Fredrest (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, December 13, 2016 2:35 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he was also a vegetarian iirc

I've read Ta-nehisi Coates. (marcos), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:42 (five years ago) link

Corpses are much more polite than children tbf.

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:43 (five years ago) link

if we can ban both strollers (Britishes "prams") and dogs then I'll consider this thread a winner

droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:51 (five years ago) link

lex's selective memory perhaps some indication that he is, just maybe, dimly and partially aware of being wrong here

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 19:58 (five years ago) link

sorry i swore at you - i just don't get what your view is based on these interjections.

I wasn't ignoring this I just got pissed off at the xpost bug

don't worry about it - I think I gave my view above, such as it is: I'm not much of a dog person but took the original revive in the spirit intended; then everybody literally - literally - I mean this literally - went insane

your posts have been good lg fwiw but otherwise tombot otm basically

banfred bann (wins), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 20:00 (five years ago) link

lex's selective memory perhaps some indication that he is, just maybe, dimly and partially aware of being wrong here

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, December 13, 2016 7:58 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this overreaction to mild hyperbole is completely fucking ludicrous and, I'd posit, far more bizarre behaviour than merely ~hating children

lex pretend, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 21:25 (five years ago) link

I hate hyperbole with the fury of a hundred suns.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 21:28 (five years ago) link

Two things based on what I have read:

1/ Misanthrophy does indeed come in a couple of flavours. Patricia Highsmith was def one for people hating and animal loving. Lex is hating on children and loving of dogs so both his love and hate are too particular.
2/ Not sure about this notion that children are the only disruptive ones. Dogs can be quite disruptive in pubs, crawling under your leg and begging for your attention. Often in the same class as small children. They are similar and must be trained well to behave. I try to avoid both.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 21:47 (five years ago) link

3/ Plants and stones are the best.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 21:48 (five years ago) link

lol Aimless

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 22:02 (five years ago) link

Mild hyperbole can be irritating because of the sweeping statements involved e.g.

oh and another thing is that 99% of the time having children turns formerly interesting and fun adults into complete bores (the 1% mostly comprises naturally gifted raconteurs who can make any anecdote entertaining). this thread seems evidence of that

and the 'hey I don't know why everyone gets so wound up - it's only a bit of mild hyperbole' escape clause.

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 22:09 (five years ago) link

he really meant only 96%

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 13 December 2016 22:10 (five years ago) link

can you imagine anyone being called a bad person for not enjoying the company of dogs or cats?

If you don't enjoy the company of dogs or cats, you are a bad person.

I hear from this arsehole again, he's going in the river (James Morrison), Tuesday, 13 December 2016 23:30 (five years ago) link

I've only ever heard "I don't like children" from gay men and quite supercilious ones. I'm not saying that that's you, Lex, but it has driven me mad in the past. It's too much of a pose and it's one that's definitely worth resisting strongly, IMO.

On the other hand, resisting middle class indulgent parents who'll let their children do anything they want is something we should all get behind. I once saw a 5-7 year old boy climb into the freezer cabinet at waitrose (the kinda trough ones) and walk over the produce, climbing over the glass patricians that separate the trough while his mother, pushing the trolley alongside him, occasionally meekly called out "Charlie [or whatever - one of those old fashioned classy names] the man will be very cross if he sees you in there.... We could get thrown out... You might be told off soon. " & similar while I looked on aghast.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:10 (five years ago) link

"Glass patricians" o_O

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:11 (five years ago) link

smash them

kinder, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:17 (five years ago) link

shouldnt stow thrones

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:18 (five years ago) link

I've only ever heard "I don't like children" from gay men and quite supercilious ones. I'm not saying that that's you, Lex

hmm if only there was enough evidence for us to determine this conclusively

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:21 (five years ago) link

I've heard that from all kinds of people. Including my wife. And me.

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:31 (five years ago) link

no one likes kids, the parents itt are hardcore lying to themselves because that's what they have to do. 'you tell a lie so much, you start to believe it's real...' - vito from the sopranos

sleepingbag, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:33 (five years ago) link

gay vito?

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:36 (five years ago) link

I like kids, I just don't think anyone should be having them based on my entirely pessimistic view of what the world will be like in 50 or 20 years.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:38 (five years ago) link

Or two years.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 00:44 (five years ago) link

Everything he did was pose—a pose so deeply calculated that if one were not on the lookout one mistook it for impulse. Ralph had never met a man who lived so much in the land of calculation. His tastes, his studies, his accomplishments, his collections, were all for a purpose. His life on his hill-top at Florence had been a pose of years. His solitude, his ennui, his love for his daughter, his good manners, his bad manners, were so many features of a mental image constantly present to him as a model of impertinence and mystification. His ambition was not to please the world, but to please himself by exciting the world’s curiosity and then declining to satisfy it. It made him feel great to play the world a trick.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 01:06 (five years ago) link

Fair to say: I probably like my (late) dog more than I like most other people's children, and one reason I loved him was because he was very tolerant of the children who wanted to interact with him. Probably also fair to say that I had a lot of issues with other kids when I was a kid, because what kind of asshole decides it's OK to bully another kid who is in the middle of chemotherapy?

However, entitled parents are far, far worse than their progeny, and parents being cruel to their kids in public gives me rage. See also: friends with boy children who are all 'go for it kiddo, be the best you can be' but with girl children, 'sharing is important, wait your turn'.

jane burkini (suzy), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 07:56 (five years ago) link

I've only ever heard "I don't like children" from gay men and quite supercilious ones. I'm not saying that that's you, Lex, but it has driven me mad in the past. It's too much of a pose and it's one that's definitely worth resisting strongly, IMO.

i've most often heard it from straight women, but almost always online, in the context of a vent they wouldn't be able to say out loud. hardly ever from straight men. i don't know why you'd say it's a pose or pretend to have that sort of insight into how people really feel

lex pretend, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 09:08 (five years ago) link

don't want to imagine how many different kinds of cancer my mom would have to have for me to be shocked someone spoke to their kid while i was talking about them

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 09:23 (five years ago) link

I may or may not be a straight woman who has ventured an opinion on OPCs while in proximity to Lex.

jane burkini (suzy), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 09:31 (five years ago) link

i think most straight men i know show a vague disliking for kids - maybe even some who have kids. i sort of agree a lot of people don't enjoy the behaviour of kids, who would enjoy it at times, i said as much about myself throughout, i just think we have a duty of tolerance towards them because they are young.

was thinking about this this morning and i think it also just depends on the person - my brother gets on prob a little better with my nephews than me because he is willing to mess-fight with them for the endless amounts of time they want to do this. i'll read them a story or watch football with them or play in the garden or interact in whatever other way, and that's grand, i enjoy hanging out with them like this and we get along well. i think over time they kind of know this as well so they're less likely to just jump on me or whatever. i wouldn't have wanted to arm-wrestle someone for an hour when i was a kid either, i liked sport but not rolling around on the ground.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 09:53 (five years ago) link

I tend to find being around children exhausting and stressful, or at best boring, generally agree that it's unfair to blame the children for this though, and that parents are mostly exhausted and trying to muddle through as best they can and it's unfair to be too judgy about strangers parenting techniques.
I was waiting in line at the supermarket checkout the other day and there was a woman in front of me with two boys who were running up and down shouting and smacking each other while she determinedly looked ahead and ignored them, but if she'd turned around and said "look, I have to look after these kids 24/7, and I'm exhausted, and at the moment I don't have the energy to make them quiet down, so you're just going to have to suck it up for 5 minutes" then I couldn't really say that she was being unreasonable.

soref, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 13:58 (five years ago) link

i wouldn't have wanted to arm-wrestle someone for an hour when i was a kid either, i liked sport but not rolling around on the ground.

I didn't like this kind of stuff either, it makes me think about Lex saying that even when he was a kid himself he didn't like other kids and wonder if a lot of adults who dislike being around children were the kind of kid who always got on better with adults than with other kids and looked forward to being a grown-up as a time when they would no longer have to deal with other kids, and kind of resent being pulled back in again? I think this is true of me to an extent.

soref, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:02 (five years ago) link

i've never thought about it in exactly those terms but that's scarily accurate

lex pretend, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:05 (five years ago) link

I was waiting in line at the supermarket checkout the other day and there was a woman in front of me with two boys who were running up and down shouting and smacking each other while she determinedly looked ahead and ignored them, but if she'd turned around and said "look, I have to look after these kids 24/7, and I'm exhausted, and at the moment I don't have the energy to make them quiet down, so you're just going to have to suck it up for 5 minutes" then I couldn't really say that she was being unreasonable.

― soref, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 13:58 (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

RONG

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:08 (five years ago) link

execute eldest child imo as a warning

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:14 (five years ago) link

Pour encourager les enfants.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:18 (five years ago) link

enfant terrible man

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 14:20 (five years ago) link

I often find myself in situations where my kid is physically attacking me and I have become so efficient and calm at dealing with it people's facial reactions to the situation can be quite comical at times. The other week I was casually maintaining a conversation about the local traffic system with a taxi driver while holding Alex off, in peak meltdown as he is trying to strangle me and clawing at my face, none of that stopping the conversation dead for the sake of the kid nonsense from me!

I probably wouldn't want to hear what some people would say about my kid's general behaviour, but fuck 'em all is the only realistic option.

calzino, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:15 (five years ago) link

I have a special needsy guy myself; his behavior in public is usually pretty benign, but it can be... unorthodox. I don't have a lot of extra mental energy to spend on what other people are concluding about my parenting skills based on his behavior.

Sometimes there's not much to be done, short of having him wear a vest that says I'M NOT A BRAT, I'M DISABLED

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:24 (five years ago) link

Yeah that period of trying to explain his condition to people didn't last very long with me either, it was often a pissing in the wind exercise of futility.

calzino, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:26 (five years ago) link

Sometimes there's not much to be done, short of having him wear a vest that says I'M NOT A BRAT, I'M DISABLED

haha

marcos, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:27 (five years ago) link

my son had one of his worst meltdowns in this indian restaurant one time and the owner was such a dick about it, everybody in the restaurant was staring at us and it was just miserable. my wife was in tears, we ended up just packing everything up before we even ordered. i brought my wife and kid back to the car and went back in to order takeout. one customer was really nice about it, he came up to me and said he was sorry for staring at us, i mentioned my son has autism and he offered to pay for the food, i declined though but it made the whole experience a little better.

marcos, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:34 (five years ago) link

Yeah, you do get a comprehensive lesson in intolerance with ASC kid, but you do sometimes find some extraordinarily good people as well, just quite rarely sadly.

Tbh taxi drivers are amongst some of the most enlightened people I meet in their attitudes towards disabled children. Lots of them have done some level of training to work on the special school contracts. In my experience bus drivers tend to be the worst though. and some of them can't hide their contempt when gets his disabled pass out. I'm almost daring one of them motherfuckers to step over line one day, because they will regret it, oh yes!

calzino, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:40 (five years ago) link

I didn't like this kind of stuff either, it makes me think about Lex saying that even when he was a kid himself he didn't like other kids and wonder if a lot of adults who dislike being around children were the kind of kid who always got on better with adults than with other kids and looked forward to being a grown-up as a time when they would no longer have to deal with other kids, and kind of resent being pulled back in again? I think this is true of me to an extent.

Mr kinder was like this and our son seems to be too (honestly it's completely different when it's your own kid) so that resentment hasn't happened even though we both feared getting involved in kid stuff.

kinder, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 15:46 (five years ago) link

i have actually known kids wear "I'm autistic, what's your problem?" shirts, can see how parents would find them handy

Wassail Anarchist (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 16:02 (five years ago) link

might even've been "what's your excuse?" come to think of it

Wassail Anarchist (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 14 December 2016 16:05 (five years ago) link

the kind of kid who always got on better with adults than with other kids and looked forward to being a grown-up as a time when they would no longer have to deal with other kids

the kind of kid who's in for a shock when he gets larger and finds out that all the "grown-ups" around him are the other kids

difficult listening hour, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 16:19 (five years ago) link

Or similarly overgrown babies

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 16:20 (five years ago) link

we have a friend whose son has ADHD and perhaps other issues not yet diagnosed and sometimes he acts out. at our school, her son was acting out one morning and she had to overhear another couple parents talking loudly, saying things like "What is WRONG with that kid?" and the like. i think she often feels pretty helpless in the face of it, just both dealing w/her son as a single mom and dealing w/judgmental strangers.

nomar, Wednesday, 14 December 2016 16:58 (five years ago) link

tonight i was looking through some of our family photos over the past year. my sons are very young, ages 4 and almost 2, so they have changed physically and developmentally a substantial amount in one year. it occurred to me that one of the reasons i felt so emotionally invested in responding in this thread is that, ultimately, to me, children are innately fascinating. by observing and spending time with them, i gain understandings about the ways in which we learn, develop, and form fundamental assumptions about basically anything - relationships, ourselves, the physical world, cause and effect, trust, pain, love, anger, whatever, anything. this is kind of related to what local garda was saying about kids displaying adults' best or worst traits but it is more about just being curious about and interested in how we develop those traits, form those values, build those assumptions. when i talk to my son about something - whether about why it gets cold in the winter, what death and dying are, what it means when we cook with salt instead of sugar, or why his brother gets angry and cries when he hits him, we are discussing fundamental concepts and he is forming those assumptions and developing knowledge for the first time in his life. at a basic human level i cannot understand how someone could be so uncurious about or disinterested in talking with or spending time with children when that awareness and appreciation comes so easily from doing so. i know that sounds harsh - i realize i was/am taking some perhaps very strident moral positions in response to a hyperbolic message board post. i don't want this to be a moral argument. i'm also a little baked right now. but, like, is the birth, growth and aging process of humans, their emotional, cognitive, physical, and personal development, not fundamentally interesting to you in some kind of way?

i understand not feeling comfortable spending a lot of time with them and maybe being irritated by them in certain social situations, i definitely am. when my kids finally fall asleep at the end of the day it is honestly something i feel relieved about daily, without exception. it is a lot of work to be around them. i relish moments when i can talk to another adult or enjoy a meal at a restaurant without interruption. but, like, spending time with kids helps me reflect on and be aware of fundamental aspects of being human, that are as meaningful and important as, say, talking with and offering support to a friend whose mother is dying from breast cancer, to cite the example mentioned earlier in which a toddler interrupts the conversation.

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 03:37 (five years ago) link

they are also really cute in the same way that puppies are ffs

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 03:39 (five years ago) link

That's a great post, marcos.

Everything Moves Towards The Sun (Ross), Thursday, 15 December 2016 06:43 (five years ago) link

^^

niels, Thursday, 15 December 2016 09:24 (five years ago) link

its a nice post but its a bit omg the wonder of being a parent which yknow fair enough.

it doesnt really address THE ISSUES

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 13:32 (five years ago) link

I'm 47 and my wife and I never had kids, and certainly I find *infants* exasperating to be around at times, but many of my friends have raised kids who are now graduating from high school, or are in high school now, and it's been really interesting to see them discover the world as they've grown up. And we have other friends who have all recently had their first children so the whole thing starts again.

One of the most amazing child-related things I saw recently: I play guitar in a cover band, and our singer Josh has a little girl about 2 years old. Josh's wife brought her to one of our recent shows. They sat at a table right up front, and Jordan was amazingly well behaved. But not just that, she sat there and watched her dad sing like he was God Himself. She was in absolute awe of her father, like maybe he had *invented* music. It was fascinating to play while watching her watch him.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Thursday, 15 December 2016 13:36 (five years ago) link

by observing and spending time with them, i gain understandings about the ways in which we learn, develop, and form fundamental assumptions about basically anything - relationships, ourselves, the physical world, cause and effect, trust, pain, love, anger, whatever, anything.

i gain understanding about these things from observing and spending time with (and talking to) adults, which...p much goes for the rest of your post too? fully-grown humans are really fascinating to learn about. what i'm saying is i don't get why there's any more ~wonderment in engaging with children than with people who have been and are still being shaped by the world, and who can actually articulate that

lex pretend, Thursday, 15 December 2016 13:42 (five years ago) link

I feel the opposite of lex, dogs seem like such a pain compared to children, and they're guaranteed to die within like what 15 years?

and such small portions etc

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Thursday, 15 December 2016 13:47 (five years ago) link

at this point i'm not 100% certain lex knows where adults come from

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Thursday, 15 December 2016 14:20 (five years ago) link

Lex, I think you are drastically overestimating the malleability of adults.

¶ (DJP), Thursday, 15 December 2016 14:24 (five years ago) link

which is a source of some wonderment itt, you have to admit

tried Blue Apron and we died (Sufjan Grafton), Thursday, 15 December 2016 14:37 (five years ago) link

at this point i'm not 100% certain lex knows where adults come from

i don't see what relevance it has? i am interested in food, i am interested to know from a distance where it comes from, i have no interest in actually physically being on a farm.

Lex, I think you are drastically overestimating the malleability of adults.

malleability isn't what necessarily interests me about adults tho. i'm not especially invested in shaping them.

lex pretend, Thursday, 15 December 2016 14:39 (five years ago) link

Good recent posts, I feel better now than I did before, sometimes anxiety can be overwhelming! I have limited reserves!

saer, Thursday, 15 December 2016 14:48 (five years ago) link

i am all for lex hating kids. sheesh, let the guy hate kids.

this thread got long! don't know if i can read it all.

i think we can all agree that people who REALLY love dogs want to have sex with dogs though, right?

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 15:09 (five years ago) link

Woofbert Woofbert

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 15 December 2016 15:19 (five years ago) link

Somebody up the road from me actually got convicted for getting Hot under the Collie :p

calzino, Thursday, 15 December 2016 15:41 (five years ago) link

Man's best friend with benefits

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 15 December 2016 15:41 (five years ago) link

bad parenting -vs- people who want to control and dominate and yell at their captive dogs every day

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 15:44 (five years ago) link

i mean people legally get to walk around in public with a living creature on a leash and they are constantly yelling at and choking these innocent creatures. closet nazis, if you ask me. or maybe not even so closeted.

but those fuzzy little guys are cute. don't get me wrong. BAD DOG!

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 15:47 (five years ago) link

i gain understanding about these things from observing and spending time with (and talking to) adults, which...p much goes for the rest of your post too? fully-grown humans are really fascinating to learn about. what i'm saying is i don't get why there's any more ~wonderment in engaging with children than with people who have been and are still being shaped by the world, and who can actually articulate that

― lex pretend, Thursday, December 15, 2016 8:42 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i agree with that! the wonderment specific to children though is that formation is in its nascent stage and it is way more dramatic because those basic assumptions that adults often take for granted are still being questioned and developed. adult humans obviously can do that too. but to brush off that development happening in kids bc you can just say "oh that's true for adults too" i think is missing something very important about childhood.

also kids CAN articulate that!!! my 4-year-old (and just about any other verbal kid that i know, really) ) asks remarkably sophisticated questions about the world and shares insights that most adults might take for granted. talking to him about stuff is obviously different than talking to an adult but imo is not any less interesting. children are incredibly articulate about things if you meet them where they're at.

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 18:36 (five years ago) link

Parents vs. animal owners would be a funny poll.

Everything Moves Towards The Sun (Ross), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:21 (five years ago) link

I suspect lex got caught in a negative feedback loop in his interactions with and thoughts about kids and has not been yet forced into a position of intimacy with a child sufficient to break that negative cycle. He expects the worst and finds it.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:23 (five years ago) link

Old Woman Who Lived in a Shoe vs. Old Macdonald

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:24 (five years ago) link

also kids CAN articulate that!!! my 4-year-old (and just about any other verbal kid that i know, really) ) asks remarkably sophisticated questions about the world and shares insights that most adults might take for granted. talking to him about stuff is obviously different than talking to an adult but imo is not any less interesting. children are incredibly articulate about things if you meet them where they're at.

― marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 18:36 (forty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

again this is nice but imma say right now that no yr four year old does not converse at the level of a sophisticated adult

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:24 (five years ago) link

that is not what he said

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:25 (five years ago) link

and i mean caveat im sure you have a bright kid and good conversations with same etc

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:26 (five years ago) link

xp its not what he was asked either tho!

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:27 (five years ago) link

nb im nkt v invested here but its a strange thread for parents to double down on the wonderment of parenthood iycwim

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:28 (five years ago) link

takes the ile hivemind off trump for a few hours

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:31 (five years ago) link

xp its not what he was asked either tho!

he was not asked a question, do keep up

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:35 (five years ago) link

to sum up my position (for those who care); parenting is a trip, non-parents will never really understand it, lex is a clown the end

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:36 (five years ago) link

has not been yet forced into a position of intimacy with a child

please rephrase this

¶ (DJP), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:39 (five years ago) link

not all intimacy is sexual, dan

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:43 (five years ago) link

children ask very basic questions for sure

i mean parents seem to get something more out of them because of context -- the parent-child relationship

so they read into these simple questions extravagant metaphors and philosophical inquiries

but a kid basically just worries when he will eat, when he will poop, and what game s/he's playing next, but for a brief second asks why little jimmy can't play with a kid, parent says some half-truth, and thinks deeply about race relationships and injustices in the world, then drives away in their hybrid/gas-guzzling car

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:54 (five years ago) link

but a kid basically just worries when he will eat, when he will poop, and what game s/he's playing next

this is not accurate ime

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:54 (five years ago) link

i love basic questions so much

surm, Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:55 (five years ago) link

the best is hearing what answers dads give on the street

surm, Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:56 (five years ago) link

theyre not capable of thinking in complex ways due to their lack of real life experience

you can talk to them about social justice, the environment, equality, but it ends there. their reactions cannot be compared to an adult and are scientifically primitive

children are megalomaniacs and thinking contrary to that sounds pretty silly

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:57 (five years ago) link

^ Yeah, but plenty of adults don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I side with Laurie Anderson on that one

Everything Moves Towards The Sun (Ross), Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:58 (five years ago) link

I don't get why you are equating complex thinking with political issues

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 20:59 (five years ago) link

but an adult surely has more potential of life experience than someone who has been alive, say, 5 years

xp

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:00 (five years ago) link

their frame of reference is more limited, but there is a lot of complex thinking that goes on within that

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:00 (five years ago) link

i never really thought about kids until i had kids. i didn't know many kids. none of my friends had kids. the first time i ever held a baby was when we had a baby. didn't come from a family with lots of kids. i know more kids now obviously. they're okay. most of them are pretty boring. i like my kids because that's how it works. i am definitely more sympathetic towards parents and more tolerant when i see/hear kids acting up or screaming or babies crying or whatever. they don't bother me. because i've been there.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:01 (five years ago) link

children are emotionally underdeveloped

you want them to talk deep about what it feels that they can't eat an extra cookie? or that they accidentally peed/pooped their pants?

there is no complex thinking a child can produce because of limited and less varied experiences. their world is too highly controlled

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:03 (five years ago) link

Things kids are often v interested in exploring/talking about that def involve complex thinking: the natural environment, mechanical processes, basic physics, animals, the list is p long. Limiting complexity to the vagaries of human social constructs is p arbitrary.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:04 (five years ago) link

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

but teach a baby to fish

banfred bann (wins), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:07 (five years ago) link

what age are these pooping kids anyway? two?

i realize the FA symbol person is being silly, but is he/she talking about toddlers? i guess he/she must be. since he/she is talking about babies on rooftops.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:07 (five years ago) link

yeah idk

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:09 (five years ago) link

those were random examples dude

children are limited by their vocabulary as well

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

and their 'complex thinking' is that of an average child of course. kids are empty vessels and whatever words you teach them do not have the same depth of meaning they do for adults, but parents get mesmerized when they can speak like adults

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:09 (five years ago) link

children's emotional intelligence do not improve drastically as far as i've seen til they're about 8, 9 or 10

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:11 (five years ago) link

i have/want neither children nor dogs but it doesn't seem too far-fetched that other people might. or so i gather from looking around

also seems possible that creatures might have worth outside of their ability to entertain me/avoid interrupting my conversations about cancer

mookieproof, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:13 (five years ago) link

don't throw your back out moving those goalposts

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:14 (five years ago) link

what a bizarre thing to say

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:14 (five years ago) link

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

and their 'complex thinking' is that of an average child of course. kids are empty vessels and whatever words you teach them do not have the same depth of meaning they do for adults

unclear on how kids differ from adults based on these parameters

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:14 (five years ago) link

articulate adults - they talk p much like most other adults!
adults are empty vessels that use whatever words they've been taught
complex thinking is that of an average adult

blah blah blah

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:15 (five years ago) link

maybe you could start by defining what you mean by the words "child" and "complex thinking" cuz it's clear as mud to me

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:15 (five years ago) link

children's emotional intelligence do not improve drastically as far as i've seen til they're about 8, 9 or 10 32

sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:16 (five years ago) link

^^^

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:16 (five years ago) link

but an adult surely has more potential of life experience than someone who has been alive, say, 5 years

xp

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:00 PM (fifteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:16 (five years ago) link

the baby on the rooftop tragedy was a fatal combination of silliness and gravity

estela, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:17 (five years ago) link

sorry i dont really think complexity of thought is necessarily correlated with life experience

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:18 (five years ago) link

xp

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:18 (five years ago) link

I am unclear on how an adult's "potential of life experience" is related to complex thinking. There are plenty of adults who couldn't reason their way out of a paper bag after a lifetime of experience.

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:19 (five years ago) link

every single parent that has said 's/he is so articulate' has referred to a child that talks pretty much like most kids i've heard

my example was my own kid bc that's who i have most experience talking w/ but i pretty clearly said this is the case for any verbal child ive talked to

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:19 (five years ago) link

it's very easy

the older the person the more potential for life experiences

that's pretty clear. why would i think a 5 year old has something more interesting to say than a 30 year old?

in practice, maybe a 30 year old may be as dumb as a doornail but the potential to better express his/herself is there

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:19 (five years ago) link

wait how is ability to express oneself related to complexity of thought, those are totally different things

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:20 (five years ago) link

children are rarely conscious of the complexities of their own feelings unless they can articulate them, and this is limited by their vocabulary and limited experiences

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:21 (five years ago) link

my first kid blew people away when he was little. with the way he spoke. he was kinda bizarre that way. he could read when he was two. probably like a lot of you braniacs. he's way smarter than me already and he's 14.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:21 (five years ago) link

tbqf i've been exposed to more interesting things in the 5+ years i've had a kid than i have been in any five year period of my life since i myself was a kid. i think it's just taking what i normally do in my own time and adding on top of it more museums, more art, reading about astronomy and dinosaurs and marine life and math and language and what not. i think in trying to keep him engaged with interesting things, i'm more engaged as well. it's made me less cynical (in some ways) and certainly more understanding towards other parents. and like scott i never had much interaction with kids before we had ours. holding a baby, never! jeez i might drop the thing. it sounds moronic maybe but at a certain point before he was born i sort of imagined what kind of dad and by extension of that what kind of person i wanted to be, and i've tried hard to manifest that and be a better and more thoughtful and patient and kind person than i was before. i'm amazed at other parents who can become supermoms or superdads and have their four kids and volunteer daily at school and run shit, it's crazy what they can accomplish. i don't have the time or ability i'm just trying to raise a good kid and an empathetic person, and i feel lucky that a) he's surrounded by good people and has good friends, and b) he had a kind heart (though he's not above slapping the living hell out of me when he has a meltdown.) anyway, parenting is not easy and the ones who sacrifice to give their kid a better upbringing deserve admiration and not scorn because they suddenly seem boring. i find myself, personally, far less bored now at 42 than i was when i was 24 or 28 or whenever.

nomar, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:22 (five years ago) link

here's an example: I was talking w my 8yo about how the sun works the other day, what it's composed of, why it gives off light and heat, etc. some of the things involved are pretty complex (nuclear reactions, how elements are formed, that kind of thing) - by contrast I know plenty of adults (like, say, my 70yo mother) who, after a lifetime of experience, couldn't tell you a goddamn thing about how the sun works.

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:23 (five years ago) link

not to take anything away from cyrus. he's really smart too.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:23 (five years ago) link

I could read at 3, I turned out to be an idiot tho

banfred bann (wins), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:23 (five years ago) link

put a baby on a rooftop and s/he will kill her/himself

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:03 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This reads like a lifehack

Evan, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:24 (five years ago) link

children are rarely conscious of the complexities of their own feelings unless they can articulate them, and this is limited by their vocabulary and limited experiences

what do feelings have to do with anything, I hate listening to people blabber about their feelings

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:24 (five years ago) link

here's an example: I was talking w my 8yo about how the sun works the other day, what it's composed of, why it gives off light and heat, etc. some of the things involved are pretty complex (nuclear reactions, how elements are formed, that kind of thing) - by contrast I know plenty of adults (like, say, my 70yo mother) who, after a lifetime of experience, couldn't tell you a goddamn thing about how the sun works.

xp

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 15, 2016 1:23 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

that was you teaching your child something

we're talking about children's ability to have an interesting, deep, emotional, or intelligent conversation. at that point, your child was not even aware of those scientific phenomena so it was hardly a conversation

not to take away from any child's ability to comprehend facts and the natural operation of the world. i think most kids are very capable

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:27 (five years ago) link

that's funny I don't remember telling you who said what in our conversation but way to assume shit

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:28 (five years ago) link

lol

i'm assuming you gave enough info to (1) make your point and (2) for me to refute it

but anyway

still cool with kids

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:31 (five years ago) link

i hate to be one of those people, but i do think kids at their best tend to be better people in general. before they get ruined by life. it's not just the innocence thing, it's more than that. it's that freshness. and that includes thinking. and expressing themselves. and creating. playing. they are some sort of ideal as far as people go. and i know i just said that most of them bore me. and they do bore me, but i would say 1 to 10 is kinda the coolest time to be human if you are the curious sort or excited by new things. learning can be so exciting for kids that age. and its sad that the end result can be a dull adult who trudges through life. it's the best time to watch your kids become people too. it's cool.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:32 (five years ago) link

it's true that she was (in part) repeating things that she had been taught (hey, just like adults do!), but the more important aspect of the conversation was that she was able to answer questions I put to her by extrapolating from the facts she had learned to draw conclusions - which is complex thinking that most adults don't bother with cuz they're just "eh I'll look it up on wikipedia if I ever have to"

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:32 (five years ago) link

that was you teaching your child something

we're talking about children's ability to have an interesting, deep, emotional, or intelligent conversation. at that point, your child was not even aware of those scientific phenomena so it was hardly a conversation

not to take away from any child's ability to comprehend facts and the natural operation of the world. i think most kids are very capable

― F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, December 15, 2016 4:27 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lol this is dumb. "the conversation you had was in my opinion not interesting, deep, emotional or intelligent."

eh at this point if your argument is that children are not capable of having an "interesting, deep, emotional or intelligent conversation" i don't know why im going to bother

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:32 (five years ago) link

can't wait for you guys to agree

banfred bann (wins), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:33 (five years ago) link

hey outic

its a strange thread for parents to double down on the wonderment of parenthood iycwim

― loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 19:28 (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

being as pissy as lex from the other direction is still u getting pissy as lex in an internet thread about children vs dogs literally an internet thread about children vs dogs cmon ta fuck

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:33 (five years ago) link

scott (and Picasso) otm about the creativity thing too - "all artists are children"

xp

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:34 (five years ago) link

sorry darraghmac I'll try to throw more comedy joeks in

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:34 (five years ago) link

I'm sure lex will love that

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:34 (five years ago) link

Yah I'm interested in all those brain & personality development parts of kids too, in fact between that and giving/receiving affection I think those are basically the only reasonable reasons to HAVE kids. But I would just need to keep my interactions with them to about 1-2 hours a day. Basically I would make an OK kind of dad who is never responsible for bedtime and retreats into his study after dinner, that's kind of my ideal.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:34 (five years ago) link

darragh people have spent almost 2 decades on this site you honestly dont tihnk people are gonna get pissy, it happens it is okay

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:35 (five years ago) link

Except when lex does it, apparently.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:36 (five years ago) link

mehhh im done

these tacos are too tasty

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:38 (five years ago) link

"mehhh im done"

spoken like a true adult.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:39 (five years ago) link

on a message board

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:39 (five years ago) link

these tacos are too tasty and I need to poop

banfred bann (wins), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:40 (five years ago) link

could you articulate your feelings more clearly plz

Οὖτις, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:40 (five years ago) link

the chili is givin me an existential crisis

F♯ A♯ (∞), Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:41 (five years ago) link

much better

marcos, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:41 (five years ago) link

it's cool. a little lite trolling never hurt anyone. if you ever want to drop some of that adult critical thinking on here though, just go for it.

scott seward, Thursday, 15 December 2016 21:43 (five years ago) link

marcos otm throughout obv

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Thursday, 15 December 2016 22:32 (five years ago) link

What a weird read! I don't know what I have done as a father. I don't feel like I especially encouraged my daughter to walk, when she wanted to stand up I helped hold her hands, and then one day , she just stood up and started walking. Same with talking, I read to her, but never feel like I was a speech therapist teaching her to speak, one day she just started talking. I'm in awe of my child everyday, because she amazes me. My heart goes out to parents with children that have needs different than my child. I'm probably a boring parent.

JacobSanders, Friday, 16 December 2016 02:47 (five years ago) link

nobody puts Baby on a rooftop

tried Blue Apron and we died (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 16 December 2016 03:07 (five years ago) link

*dirty dances away from this disaster*

tried Blue Apron and we died (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 16 December 2016 03:12 (five years ago) link

if you all want someone else to complain about, I don't like dogs

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Friday, 16 December 2016 03:36 (five years ago) link

I dont like dogs and i even less like owners who treat dogs like humans, call them "furbabies" and talk endlessly about them, and mourn them for 10 years after theyre dead. That just ... god, have a child.

Stoop Crone (Trayce), Friday, 16 December 2016 04:39 (five years ago) link

Lol

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 04:44 (five years ago) link

Thorstein Veblen was a champion dog-hater, as immortalized in several passages in The Theory of the Leisure Class, so you are in distinguished company silby.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Friday, 16 December 2016 05:20 (five years ago) link

i beg your pardon, trayce, furbabies do not die, they go to the rainbow bridge, please get your "facts" straight.

estela, Friday, 16 December 2016 05:58 (five years ago) link

people who hate kids and make everyone around them aware of how much they hate kids are creepy

qualx, Friday, 16 December 2016 06:22 (five years ago) link

UGGGGH at the cloyingness of anything to do with 'rainbow bridge'.

jane burkini (suzy), Friday, 16 December 2016 06:22 (five years ago) link

also getting pissy at people for mourning their pets for however long is also creepy

granted not in the same way but it sets off the same "o_0 jfc get over it" thing in my brain

qualx, Friday, 16 December 2016 06:24 (five years ago) link

i dislike the "furbaby" thing and talking about pets like they're you're children but that's an aesthetic thing, it has no bearing on how much of a shit people give about their pets

qualx, Friday, 16 December 2016 06:26 (five years ago) link

has anyone itt actually said anything in favor of either children or pets

qualx, Friday, 16 December 2016 06:36 (five years ago) link

no way of checking I suppose

banfred bann (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 06:47 (five years ago) link

well i went back to the point where multiple grown adults argued about whether or not children are good conversationalists but my eyes glazed over and now i'm dead and here's my corpse

qualx, Friday, 16 December 2016 07:10 (five years ago) link

wait is mourning a pet now unacceptable???

multiple grown adults argued about whether or not children are good conversationalists but my eyes glazed over and now i'm dead and here's my corpse

for real that was just...that any adult could argue a 5yo is as good a conversationalist just encapsulates how boring and awful people get on parenthood, when their level of conversation is reduced to talking about their child, in whom i am uninterested. it explains a lot

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 07:56 (five years ago) link

diversity adds perspective to a conversation

niels, Friday, 16 December 2016 08:07 (five years ago) link

will someone please ban me from this hell

qualx, Friday, 16 December 2016 08:11 (five years ago) link

there's a deep irony waiting to be unearthed here somewhere beneath the bizarre oblivion that's required to earnestly assess children's worth, as an entire group, based on their lack of ability to converse at the level of adults.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 08:28 (five years ago) link

I don't know about conversation, but for some parents, when they see their child's face, they are taken away to that special place. And if they'd stare too long, they'd probably break down and cry.

tried Blue Apron and we died (Sufjan Grafton), Friday, 16 December 2016 08:32 (five years ago) link

Gotta check the privilege of sitting judgement of who is boring and who is not.

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Friday, 16 December 2016 08:46 (five years ago) link

I was gonna wade in last night on whether we should assess the worth of, say, adults with learning disabilities based on their ability to discuss Vorticism but then I thought "this cluster is probably fucked enough right now" so peace

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2016 09:37 (five years ago) link

the cluster cannot take any more

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 09:45 (five years ago) link

no one is "assessing the worth" of anyone. local garda why are you exaggerating everything??

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 09:46 (five years ago) link

I wasn't talking about you there lex, as I said ages ago I think a simple statement of "I don't enjoy the company of children" is understandable and reasonable

there was a whole wild tangent that ∞ was getting into about expression and communication and ideas that bears no resemblance to my experience of what individual humans - kids or adults - can share with us if we're receptive to them, or about what interactions and relationships really are about, or about any experience I recognise about being one being in a world full of beings tbh

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2016 09:56 (five years ago) link

i'll leave that for others to decide xpost.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 09:57 (five years ago) link

lex started it

conrad, Friday, 16 December 2016 09:58 (five years ago) link

theyre not capable of thinking in complex ways due to their lack of real life experience

you can talk to them about social justice, the environment, equality, but it ends there. their reactions cannot be compared to an adult and are scientifically primitive

I mean, there are umpteen ways that this is just wrong, to me, but the heart of the wrongness is that somehow "complex" thinking produces the kinds of interaction most worthy of our time. I mean, to go back to animals for a minute, how much I value interacting with a dog or a cat is not remotely predicated on what I believe to be the complexity of their abstract thought

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Friday, 16 December 2016 10:01 (five years ago) link

what is it that children fail to do, in conversations, which adults have learned to do?

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 10:02 (five years ago) link

i'll leave that for others to decide xpost.

― Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, December 16, 2016 9:57 AM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

others can decide what they want but you've consistently exaggerated everything i've said to a ludicrous extent. you're a fucking disingenuous weirdo for it.

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 10:02 (five years ago) link

i don't think that's true, the previous time you said this was when you forgot you used the word "hated".

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 10:06 (five years ago) link

and when you wilfully misinterpreted "irritated" as "irate"?

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 10:08 (five years ago) link

do not try it with me ronan. leave me the fuck alone.

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 10:08 (five years ago) link

i mean you revived a thread called "children v dogs" - you could take a minute and think "maybe some of the things i'm saying are offending people, why is that?"

i say that as someone not personally offended by anything you said itt.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 10:09 (five years ago) link

the original thread didn't seem to contain any offended people despite several posters opting for dogs???

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 10:11 (five years ago) link

is there a reason for that? i haven't read the original. it might contain different words i suppose.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Friday, 16 December 2016 10:12 (five years ago) link

oh is this still going on? yes yes children are terrible they bang on and on about the same thing for days and get mardy when people don't say what they want

kinder, Friday, 16 December 2016 10:29 (five years ago) link

fair comment but we need to hear from hunde for balance

banfred bann (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 10:39 (five years ago) link

is there a reason for that?

Fewer ILXors had kids 12 years ago.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Friday, 16 December 2016 11:18 (five years ago) link

I like asking parents about their experiences - or rather their kid experiences, particularly with technology. The subject fascinates me although I'm not set on having kids myself.

I've still got it in for anyone who puts 'Dad' (or, worse, 'Husband') in their Twitter bio though. What is that about?

nashwan, Friday, 16 December 2016 11:32 (five years ago) link

DONT TRY IT

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Friday, 16 December 2016 11:49 (five years ago) link

Wilf is annoyed with the turn this thread has taken. You really don't want to annoy Wilf.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Czy_XHCWEAEX1fl.jpg

jane burkini (suzy), Friday, 16 December 2016 13:10 (five years ago) link

I would never annoy Wilf! I choose Wilf!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Friday, 16 December 2016 13:27 (five years ago) link

whippet I'd like to f?

banfred bann (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 13:33 (five years ago) link

Wilfred!

LOL, his owner is gay and Wilf makes a beeline for any well-dressed man in the street, so one of his owner's many nicknames for this guy is Cock Magnet.

jane burkini (suzy), Friday, 16 December 2016 13:57 (five years ago) link

I ran some tests. I found that dogs instinctively know how to swim and children do not. Point goes to dogs.
Unfortunately I'll need a good amount of time before I am reequipped and able to run the next test.

Evan, Friday, 16 December 2016 15:24 (five years ago) link

But how long would a dog survive on a roof

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 15:49 (five years ago) link

we put a baby and a dog on a roof. what happened next will shock you

soref, Friday, 16 December 2016 15:50 (five years ago) link

Did they have a complex interaction

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 15:51 (five years ago) link

Never put kiddies where fiddlers have been known to hang out imo

banfred bann (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 15:52 (five years ago) link

i thought babies actually could swim if you put them in the water. i never tested this.

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 15:55 (five years ago) link

that one on the nirvana cover seems to be doing ok

forgive me fader for I have sinned (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 15:56 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbrMcH63XM0

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 15:58 (five years ago) link

oh okay, they are faking it:

"it's not true that babies are born with the ability to swim, though they have reflexes that make it look like they are. A reflex called the bradycardic response makes babies hold their breath and open their eyes when submerged in water, says Jeffrey Wagener, a pediatric pulmonologist in Colorado."

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:00 (five years ago) link

that scares the shit of me, what kind of monster would put their baby in a pool

marcos, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:04 (five years ago) link

any adult could argue a 5yo is as good a conversationalist just encapsulates how boring and awful people get on parenthood, when their level of conversation is reduced to talking about their child, in whom i am uninterested. it explains a lot

― lex pretend, Friday, December 16, 2016 2:56 AM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think you are willfully being a dumb asshole

marcos, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:17 (five years ago) link

p much

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:19 (five years ago) link

no one claimed "a 5 yo is as good a conversationalist"

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:20 (five years ago) link

toddler on the roof

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Friday, 16 December 2016 16:24 (five years ago) link

that scares the shit of me, what kind of monster would put their baby in a pool

Welllll arguably someone who knows their kid is going to be around water a lot and believes this will reduce their risk of accidental drowning or panicking in water situations?

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Friday, 16 December 2016 16:29 (five years ago) link

sorry i meant unsupervised

marcos, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:34 (five years ago) link

i mean i guess the baby clearly knows what shes doing in that video but id be terrified of testing the "bradycardic response" on my kids

marcos, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:34 (five years ago) link

that scares the shit of me, what kind of monster would put their baby in a pool

― marcos, Friday, December 16, 2016 11:04 AM (thirty-two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

sorry i meant unsupervised

― marcos, Friday, December 16, 2016 11:34 AM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Are you implying there is a parent out there that might be having a kind of "did I leave my stove on?" style moment right now about whether they left their baby in the pool?

Evan, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:43 (five years ago) link

lol right, there's lots of "baby & me" type swimming classes out there where you hold your baby while in the water and first you just hold them and then you dab water on their face, and gradually get closer to submerging their face and etc etc with the idea being that they're more comfortable in the water during infancy than they will be later if they never try it.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Friday, 16 December 2016 16:45 (five years ago) link

i think you are willfully being a dumb asshole

no. the wilfully dumb and offensive people in this thread have been entirely parents, who took a low-level grouse and responded with aspersions on my normality and morality (not at all loaded towards a gay person, oh no) for daring to express a pretty commonplace annoyance. i don't give a shit whether you agree with my preference - plenty of people i actually like obviously don't, having had children - but this immediate shift into "well that makes you a BAD, STRANGE PERSON" is why this thread has gone on for several hundred answers more than it should have. parents are consistently the most offensive people towards those who haven't chosen their lifestyle and this has been no exception.

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 16:48 (five years ago) link

DONT TRY IT

otm

though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Friday, 16 December 2016 16:53 (five years ago) link

lol does lex know any gay parents genuinely curious

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:00 (five years ago) link

I mean I'm sure they are boring inconsiderate monsters like all other parents but the accusation of homophobia here is p weird

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:01 (five years ago) link

it is much less of a stretch than "annoyed by children" turning into "pro child abuse" upthread

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:03 (five years ago) link

WHY would anyone choose to have a child instead of a dog is national newspaper trollumnist material.

nashwan, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:04 (five years ago) link

trying to think of what toddler lex must have been like. i'm guessing temper tantrums. he's still a lovable scamp though.

i am all for people not having kids. it's a wise choice. when i see these older people panic and decide at the last minute that they need kids i go.....bbbbbut you can go anywhere and do anything and you are old and why????

having a dog was too aggravating for me. they are the toddlers who never grow up. we had a lovely dog and we found her a better home. she was a big strong dog that could easily run 50 miles a day and we felt bad that we were never home. now she has an outdoor running life. never want another dog.

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:08 (five years ago) link

I like how you keep dialing back "hatred" to "annoyed" cool rhetorical move there bro

xp

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:08 (five years ago) link

(growing up we just let the dog out the door all day. that's more like it. can't do that anymore.)

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:09 (five years ago) link

yike this if ru rere rorn in re raties

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:10 (five years ago) link

recently i was remembering how there used to be poop EVERYWHERE. remember that? city sidewalks covered in poop. you would have to be kinda old to remember that. there was dog poop everywhere.

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:10 (five years ago) link

i don't think "i hated kids when i was one" referring to what i felt as a child is remotely inflammatory, but cool keep pretending it's just that one word that provoked your pile-on ouris

lex pretend, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:11 (five years ago) link

sorry this is not a safe space for you to vent about how much you dislike them

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:23 (five years ago) link

how ever do you endure it

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:23 (five years ago) link

also i hated children when i was a child, it's not a new development

this would imply that your feelings now are the same as they were when you were a monstrous irritant that couldn't hold a decent conversation

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:24 (five years ago) link

............. yesterday?

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:26 (five years ago) link

set up: punchline

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:26 (five years ago) link

no kidding ;)

Evan, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:26 (five years ago) link

baby on the rooftop I know, I know, it's serious

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:34 (five years ago) link

parents are consistently the most offensive people towards those who haven't chosen their lifestyle and this has been no exception.

Hmmmmmmmmmm.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:35 (five years ago) link

tbh I agree that most parents (esp. new parents) are dull and/or annoying

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:38 (five years ago) link

i think it has been confirmed by science that most PEOPLE are pretty dull. i mean have you ever talked to one?

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:39 (five years ago) link

I've been meaning to

Evan, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:41 (five years ago) link

I'd reconsider

forgive me fader for I have sinned (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:42 (five years ago) link

and there's so many of them! always in my way when I'm trying to walk down the street

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:43 (five years ago) link

don't they realize I have dogshit I have to lovingly scoop up

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:43 (five years ago) link

Just toss it in the pool with the babies.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:45 (five years ago) link

babies come complete with pool shit

Evan, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:47 (five years ago) link

I sympathize with lex's revive post. I'm a gay man, bachelor by choice and design, beloved by my nieces and godson. Not one person I know has insisted I love their children or hasn't been quick to notice my discomfort and move the kids away and say, "OK, leave Alfred alone," sometimes firmly (an exception: a parent who'd rather have a drink and adult conversation while his boys pour gasoline on old women, and everyone thinks he's an asshole). Because, yeah, I'm not a natural around children. I resent sometimes having to do things on their terms: sometimes I don't want to play in the room; often all I want is a drink and adult conversation.

Unless your circle consists of single women and gay men, it's hard to imagine a scenario where I never interact with children. IIf I'm going too commune with the straight world, I have to accept the fact of children. A silver lining: some of them will turn out gay!

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:56 (five years ago) link

the difference between you and lex is you're a gentleman

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:59 (five years ago) link

<i>I think a simple statement of "I don't enjoy the company of children" is understandable and reasonable</i>

yeah I still don't get what's so offensive about this

donut, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:59 (five years ago) link

while his boys pour gasoline on old women

hold up for a sec

nomar, Friday, 16 December 2016 17:59 (five years ago) link

genuine q alfred- what about that is different for you as a gay man as opposed to a straight man without kids (or a parent but eg around other peoples kids)

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:00 (five years ago) link

while his boys pour gasoline on old women
hold up for a sec

― nomar, Friday, December 16, 2016

these boys are savages imo

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:00 (five years ago) link

genuine q alfred- what about that is different for you as a gay man as opposed to a straight man without kids (or a parent but eg around other peoples kids)

― loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac),

The societal expectation still exists that I don't want nor would I have any use for children. It's possible I haven't scrutinized my own antipathy, i.e. pried it apart from the queerness

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:03 (five years ago) link

I sympathize too, as someone who is straight & married and not going to have kids. I have nothing against kids (and anti-kid rhetoric is not a good look), and being around friends' kids is interesting even though I'm not very good at it, but I just don't think I have the mental fortitude to engage with children on their level for longer than a few minutes. It's exhausting!

sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:06 (five years ago) link

xp fair enough imo

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:14 (five years ago) link

As someone whose only kid is pushing 30*, I kinda sympathize with lex too. My daughter's determination not to have kids is an ongoing relief to me. It's not the kind of thing I share without prompting. (I'm pretending this thread is a prompt.)

*jesus christ, remember when I asked ilx for university recommendations for her?

aaaaaaaauuuuuuuuu (melting robot) (WilliamC), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:21 (five years ago) link

my world and community is lousy with gay parents. god bless them. i go to lots of people's houses where there are kids and i ignore all of them. i have never had anyone try to get me to interact with their kids. god bless them. i know a lot of really cool people though.

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:28 (five years ago) link

taking "my world of young ppl" to ever more ridiculous levels

forgive me fader for I have sinned (wins), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:31 (five years ago) link

recently i was remembering how there used to be poop EVERYWHERE. remember that? city sidewalks covered in poop. you would have to be kinda old to remember that. there was dog poop everywhere.

― scott seward, Friday, December 16, 2016 12:10 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

visit Chicago after the snow melts if you wish to be transported back in time

rob, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:57 (five years ago) link

there was a whole wild tangent that ∞ was getting into about expression and communication and ideas that bears no resemblance to my experience of what individual humans - kids or adults - can share with us if we're receptive to them, or about what interactions and relationships really are about, or about any experience I recognise about being one being in a world full of beings tbh

― Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Friday, December 16, 2016 1:56 AM (eight hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fair enough

but this is more of a what type of people do you like (to hang out with) -- everyone gets enjoyment out of or is fulfilled by different things

you get along with some little dudes better than others, and the same applies when interacting with adults; kind of silly to say "in my opinion" or "for me", but imo

i grew up with babies/children til i was 17 and the type of friendships i wanted has changed throughout my entire life, but i never had the urge to hang out with children til recently (but very sparingly). i have friends that love kids and they tell me why, and i would not want to hang out with those kids based on those reasons

and this is an important distinction and a reason why i say i'm cool with hanging out with kids now. i was just explaining where they're at mentally and emotionally. it doesn't mean i think they are inferior or would not humour them. if i learn something new about ~life~ or about myself due to interacting with kids, it's because of my own introspection, but i am almost certain our opinions diverge here

F♯ A♯ (∞), Friday, 16 December 2016 19:09 (five years ago) link

a couple clarifications are probably needed there but i'll leave it at that unless someone brings it up

F♯ A♯ (∞), Friday, 16 December 2016 19:11 (five years ago) link

WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU USE A TOOTHBRUSH, I'LL FUCKING DO YOU IN, DON'T TRY IT

mookieproof, Friday, 16 December 2016 19:41 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0QuG6_FA6I

F♯ A♯ (∞), Friday, 16 December 2016 19:48 (five years ago) link

https://media.giphy.com/media/l0HlAQdHvegjdr6SY/giphy.gif

scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 20:18 (five years ago) link

I sent my brother that gif and he sent me this: https://vimeo.com/21693673

rob, Friday, 16 December 2016 21:04 (five years ago) link

rob's link: essential viewing

troops in djibouti (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 16 December 2016 21:10 (five years ago) link

Agh this whole thread has been a vital marketing campaign
http://www.avclub.com/article/boss-baby-wages-war-against-puppies-new-trailer-247513

kinder, Friday, 16 December 2016 23:50 (five years ago) link

how... how is that not the SNL thing

Οὖτις, Friday, 16 December 2016 23:55 (five years ago) link

I apologise sincerely to lex for suggesting that his dislike of being around kids is a pose. I still think it's worth overcoming but I put some disparate observations together and applied it to this situation. Also I was drunk, sorry.

Acting Crazy (Instrumental) (jed_), Saturday, 17 December 2016 00:31 (five years ago) link

aw, it's a lex pile-on. It makes me all nostalgic.

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 17 December 2016 03:50 (five years ago) link

expressing annoyance w/ ppl for mourning their pets is one of the pettiest things i've ever heard

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 17 December 2016 06:15 (five years ago) link

ugh i swear the pun there was not intentional

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 17 December 2016 06:15 (five years ago) link

Conversation is a two way thing. Maybe it's you who is shit at talking with kids.

Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Saturday, 17 December 2016 07:09 (five years ago) link

you get along with some little dudes better than others, and the same applies when interacting with adults; kind of silly to say "in my opinion" or "for me", but imo

yeah dude i didn't think you were being obnoxious, just a bit reductive maybe

as far as introspection goes yes i think we disagree, i don't buy myself as an island cogitating away so much as an open-ended organism in the middle of organism soup and the other ingredients keep basting me

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 17 December 2016 07:29 (five years ago) link

99% of the time having children turns formerly interesting and fun adults into complete bores (the 1% mostly comprises naturally gifted raconteurs who can make any anecdote entertaining)

I wasn't sure if Lex dislikes children or parents more.

But I think this view (quoted above) is in itself 'boorish', considering the incredible diversity of things of parents and what they do. When you find 99% of parents complete bores, maybe it's time to question your own opinions.

(Sorry this sounds ridiculously patronising - but there it is)

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Saturday, 17 December 2016 13:02 (five years ago) link

the children make me more anxious and uncomfortable; i would rather exist in proximity to parents but ultimately i dislike them more. (obviously there are parents who aren't turned into entitled bores by parenthood and can still converse about matters outside their nuclear family, but they're a minority)

i fully admit i am shit at engaging with children - i mostly have no idea what to do or say and endeavour to ignore them - but i've no desire to get better at this, just to arrange my life to better avoid them. i do think reducing the scope of your interests and indeed love to your precious fucking nuclear family is a signifier of a worse person. it's fundamentally anti-solidarity.

lex pretend, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:02 (five years ago) link

I'm terrible at talking to children between, say, eight and fourteen. That's when I have nothing to say, and theoretically it should be easier.

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:09 (five years ago) link

i feel optimistic about engaging w/teenagers when the time comes

lex pretend, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:13 (five years ago) link

just say the word and we'll help you get out of the rubbish bin

Flamenco Drop (VegemiteGrrl), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:15 (five years ago) link

Parents do inane crap as well, including watch tennis all day, ramble about their end of year spotify lists and post inane crap on twitter. Don't notice a lot of difference tbh.

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:17 (five years ago) link

doing inane crap is my forte

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:18 (five years ago) link

bob six:

- would that i could watch tennis all day, and tweet about it
- pretty sure i've posted under 20 words total about my EOY spotify playlist on the internet, would that i could hear under 20 words total about ppl's kids
- unfollow me then, fuckwit

lex pretend, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:22 (five years ago) link

personally i think kids are cool, great, even. feel like i would be a good dad if i wasn't such shit at being in a relationship. yes there are shitty kids but there are plenty of shitty adults.

for where i am, (non-human) animals (???) is a good substitute. we have two cats at my place and they are constantly a comfort. i used to get very depressed when i was a teenager and i really haven't felt that way since i started having a pet.

cats have been overwhelmingly beneficial to my sanity. it's nice to look at a face and realize nearly all of the bullshit bugging you literally does not exist in their reality. sometimes i envy them.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:26 (five years ago) link

pretty sure i've posted under 20 words total about my EOY spotify playlist on the internet, would that i could hear under 20 words total about ppl's kids

word count: 28

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:39 (five years ago) link

xp
don't muddy the waters by bringing those disease ridden - at liberty to shit in your garden - bird killers to this thread for goodness sake :p

calzino, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:43 (five years ago) link

love cats

forgive me fader for I have sinned (wins), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:43 (five years ago) link

detest them

calzino, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:46 (five years ago) link

don't mind other people's but am v unhappy with their shitting and trampoline net-destroying antics

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:47 (five years ago) link

cats or children?

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:48 (five years ago) link

don't find kid's shit anything like as repellent as pet shit, which is on a higher plain of noxiousness than almost anything

Rock Wokeman (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:50 (five years ago) link

I have one of them high pressure water pistols filled with slimy dishwater in my kitchen, for when any cats venture anywhere near my bird feeding station. The ones I manage to hit never seem to return. I love dogs + kids - even the annoying type ones. But as for cats - I'd be happy for some kind of final solution tbh.

calzino, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:55 (five years ago) link

"but i've no desire to get better at this, just to arrange my life to better avoid them"

now i'm just imagining all these children leaping out from behind corners on the street at the lex. who are all these children? just tell them to buzz off.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-714hCsrkzIA/VDSmj-nBuaI/AAAAAAAAB0Q/8YiinQCnlwU/s1600/bike.jpg

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 18:57 (five years ago) link

i do think reducing the scope of your interests and indeed love to your precious fucking nuclear family is a signifier of a worse person. it's fundamentally anti-solidarity.

― lex pretend, Saturday, December 17, 2016 1:02 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lex, genuine question for you - have you ever had another person become wholly or almost exclusively dependent on you for their well-being and existence? A sick friend, parent, family member, or partner? there are many reasons people might have to withdraw or shift their focus internally to people or events that demand significant time and energy. it seems petty and lacking of empathy to call them worse people. the care-taking of a dependent is an enormous demand, if one has never had to do it, it might be difficult to understand.

marcos, Saturday, 17 December 2016 19:13 (five years ago) link

seems like sacrificing much of your life for the well-being of someone else is pretty pro-solidarity

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Saturday, 17 December 2016 19:25 (five years ago) link

so many genuine questions itt

forgive me fader for I have sinned (wins), Saturday, 17 December 2016 19:40 (five years ago) link

you guys are assuming lex's declaration of most parents as boring is some kind of moral judgement when it seems pretty clear it's an aesthetic one, or a "lifestyle choice"
I think it could potentially be some projection at work i.e. I'M NOT BORING nobody said you were

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:00 (five years ago) link

OTOH
reducing the scope of your interests and indeed love to your precious fucking nuclear family
is a reasonable starting point for a moral judgement because this is how some people do become awful

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:12 (five years ago) link

you know I think that would've been a pretty fair and accurate assessment until lex said outright that parents who focus too much on their kids are literally worse people and "anti-solidarity"

marcos, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:14 (five years ago) link

xp

marcos, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:14 (five years ago) link

It's true i feel v little solidarity w boorish narcissists

Οὖτις, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:17 (five years ago) link

What a lovely thread full of dog haters, cat haters, kid haters and parent haters. Merry Christmas, everyone!

DJI, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:20 (five years ago) link

good mourning!

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:21 (five years ago) link

Good Mourning!

http://images.scribblelive.com/2013/1/16/2afb8358-d4ba-43e9-8780-5dcfda800c76.jpg

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:23 (five years ago) link

I don't even think it's a reasonable starting point. There are so many different types of parents and families (e.g. doctors, surgeons, social workers, knackered charity workers), I'm not sure you can reduce them to this broad "precious fucking nuclear family" generalisation.

And not being a parent doesn't mean you're necessarily manning the barricades pushing for positive societal change.

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:23 (five years ago) link

i was 90% selfish before i had kids. now i'm 70% selfish.

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:34 (five years ago) link

why would anyone bother hanging out with boring parents and their annoying kids anyway? i HAVE to talk to normal/boring parents sometimes. it comes with the territory. but i never came anywhere near them when i was blissfully kidless.

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:35 (five years ago) link

awkward small talk with normal people coming to pick up their kid after a birthday party/play date one of the inevitable hazards of child-rearing. sometimes there's just no avoiding it.

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:38 (five years ago) link

I avoid other parents like the plague. I was invited to some parents meeting at the school and my partner asked me if I was going. I said in jest that I was getting my pubes permed on that particular day and she actually wrote that in the school dairy - as in I wouldn't be attending because I am getting my pubic hair permed. I couldn't believe she did it ffs. There wasn't a reply from the teachers funnily enough.

calzino, Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:43 (five years ago) link

if the only people that matter to you are "you and yours" - which is I read when I read "reducing the scope of interests and love to your nuclear family" - then you're probably an asshole

There are so many different types of parents and families (e.g. doctors, surgeons, social workers, knackered charity workers), I'm not sure you can reduce them to this broad "precious fucking nuclear family" generalisation.

"this very specific statement becomes far, far too broad and overly general when I choose to interpret selectively as such"

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:45 (five years ago) link

I'm not sure of the value of a close scriptural/textual analysis of Lex's remarks, but he was shooting far and wide as far as I can see:

99% of the time having children turns formerly interesting and fun adults into complete bores (the 1% mostly comprises naturally gifted raconteurs who can make any anecdote entertaining)

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Saturday, 17 December 2016 20:53 (five years ago) link

being boring is good imo

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:02 (five years ago) link

i have no kids and still manage to be quite boring and incredibly selfish fwiw

sleepingbag, Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:03 (five years ago) link

so which remark are you interested in arguing about? the moral one or the one where we're all boring?

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:05 (five years ago) link

i'm used to the way you guys are boring. i guess it must be comforting.

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:16 (five years ago) link

i mean how many years have people gotten up in arms over some good clean lex fun? it's like a cozy boring cup of tea by now.

scott seward, Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:19 (five years ago) link

this thread is better when there are more dog/children comparisons and relative judgments

droit au butt (Euler), Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:24 (five years ago) link

i do think reducing the scope of your interests and indeed love to your precious fucking nuclear family is a signifier of a worse person. it's fundamentally anti-solidarity.

The alleged "moral judgement"/ starting point for a moral judgement?

It's none of my business what peoples' interests are, nor my business to tell them what their interests should be - parents or non-parents.

I don't understand the anti-solidarity point.

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Saturday, 17 December 2016 21:58 (five years ago) link

if the only people that matter to you are "you and yours" - which is I read when I read "reducing the scope of interests and love to your nuclear family" - then you're probably an asshole

^^^^^^^^^

lex pretend, Saturday, 17 December 2016 22:02 (five years ago) link

Do you have a theory on couples?

Dr Drudge (Bob Six), Saturday, 17 December 2016 22:16 (five years ago) link

Or brontosauruses

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Saturday, 17 December 2016 22:21 (five years ago) link

brontosauruses are the worst
I will take hours and hours with bratty kids and stinky dogs over 15 minutes with a brontosaurus

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Saturday, 17 December 2016 22:26 (five years ago) link

Double Income No Kids
DINK

calstars, Sunday, 18 December 2016 01:22 (five years ago) link

My daughter is the result of a biracial marriage. My grandfather was born in Spring,TX and he loves the family I've help to create. During WWll he he fell in love with and married a czech born displaced german woman. Throughout my childhood I heard many racist comments on pretty much all fronts from this man. Now he is in love with my wife and child via Facebook. My wife has photos of her family and I'm seeing my racist grandfather genuinely asking questions about her grandfather who was also a WWll vet. My grandfather has used the words beautiful in so many of my wife's photos on Facebook that I'm in awe and shock. This was a man I feared for most of my childhood, who is now giving praise to my Mexican wife. Say what you will about parents and "reducing the scope of interests and love to your nuclear family" but sometimes it helps to cure an old man of racism. I can only smile. and rethink who my grandfather is.

JacobSanders, Sunday, 18 December 2016 02:53 (five years ago) link

http://i.imgur.com/8QddJLy.gif

pplains, Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:00 (five years ago) link

this is the part of the thread where i start sharing my 11 year old kid's art.

scott seward, Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:12 (five years ago) link

if the only people that matter to you are "you and yours" - which is I read when I read "reducing the scope of interests and love to your nuclear family" - then you're probably an asshole

this is about as facile as the rest of the tombot contributions itt. can you edit these down to "assholes are assholes" in future? or just don't bother posting them.

also the idea that this thread revival is a provocation towards looking outward away from ourselves is so ridiculous as to be hilarious. thread actually embarrasses the board, all in all.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:25 (five years ago) link

it's sad but it's funny too.

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:28 (five years ago) link

It is hard to get a man to understand something when his ability to keep posting with righteous indignation depends on his not understanding it

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:28 (five years ago) link

the balancing act between respect and condescension

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:30 (five years ago) link

It is hard to get a man to understand something when his ability to keep posting with righteous indignation depends on his not understanding it

did you read this off the toilet wall while taking a piss or something? wonderful input as ever.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:33 (five years ago) link

best fortune cookie of all time.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:33 (five years ago) link

xanax walt whitman

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:33 (five years ago) link

This whole thing started with some prick decrying conversations he's supposedly above and children. C'mon. You feel the need to vent about that, you're obviously the 1% 'raconteur you exalt in your mind's eye and, by that action, not. It's pathetic. Lex, Tombot: who wants to listen to you? Cause smug 'sophistication' is always latent attention-seeking or willful aloneness.

But go figure a board started by music critics tries to police what people love.

the ilx meme is critical of that line of thought (lion in winter), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:35 (five years ago) link

eh, I lost much respect for a lot of the angry defensive dads and uncles and affiliated victims in this thread a couple days ago

my cat can't draw, and his food and poops are disgusting, but he doesn't create nearly as close to the volume of laundry that my 5yo does

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:36 (five years ago) link

people talk about music here? xp

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:37 (five years ago) link

lol at an actual dad trying to promote less self-awareness about kids to someone who doesn't have any.

Bein' Sean Bean (LocalGarda), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:42 (five years ago) link

dads and uncles

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:42 (five years ago) link

not reading all of this, did dads and uncles actually get mad at lex pretend here?

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:43 (five years ago) link

oh nevermind why did i post that i need to make friends

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:44 (five years ago) link

i really need to meditate more frequently

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:47 (five years ago) link

fat chance of that, what with all your children and/or animals

slathered in cream and covered with stickers (silby), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:48 (five years ago) link

I think I need LocalGarda to grab another beer and explain to me how children are our future

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:50 (five years ago) link

i really need to meditate more frequently

― a but (brimstead), Sunday, December 18, 2016 3:47 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

misread that as "mediate" and thought you were proffering yourself as the person who could have reconciled Lex + the ilx dads/uncles

soref, Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:54 (five years ago) link

this is the part of the thread where i start sharing my 11 year old kid's art.

more of this please

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Sunday, 18 December 2016 03:59 (five years ago) link

is reginald the bee anything to do with this guy?: https://youtu.be/VGcVnXiApNk

soref, Sunday, 18 December 2016 04:03 (five years ago) link

^that is a jam! thread delivers

a but (brimstead), Sunday, 18 December 2016 04:25 (five years ago) link

Well done everyone.

Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 18 December 2016 04:59 (five years ago) link

I mean this is basically how Trump got elected.

Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Sunday, 18 December 2016 05:00 (five years ago) link

a lot of layabouts with nothing better to do than to cause trouble!

difficult listening hour, Sunday, 18 December 2016 05:11 (five years ago) link

that's how i scold my kid and his friends too!

nomar, Sunday, 18 December 2016 05:16 (five years ago) link

nuclear families picking on lex by existing.

did not expect it to go there but prob should have tbf

loudmouth darraghmac ween (darraghmac), Sunday, 18 December 2016 08:37 (five years ago) link

is always latent attention-seeking or willful aloneness.

covering all bases here

ogmor, Sunday, 18 December 2016 10:33 (five years ago) link

but disliking parents for being child-obsessed kinda has to be a generational thing, right? I mean, you wouldn't be annoyed by your own parents taking an interest in your life?

niels, Monday, 19 December 2016 13:26 (five years ago) link

lex's parents being as uninterested in him as he wants other parents to be about their kids would explain a lot

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 19 December 2016 13:39 (five years ago) link

but disliking parents for being child-obsessed kinda has to be a generational thing, right?

Not for nothing but my great-grandma was one of 20 kids, my mom basically raised her 4 siblings bc my grandmother wasn't the motherly type, and my mom used to throw US out of the house for hours at a time when we were little. I know this isn't everyone's experience, but the hyper-attentive indoor "apartment" parenting thing is a total mystery to me--when there's no "outside" to tell your kids to go play in without you. I spent about 3 hours cooped up with my boyfriend's two adolescents yesterday and I wanted to cry by 1pm.

If authoritarianism is Romania's ironing board, then (in orbit), Monday, 19 December 2016 15:04 (five years ago) link

i've met the lex's parents. they're great.

http://ffmedia.ign.com/general/multimedia/bubbleboy1.jpg

scott seward, Monday, 19 December 2016 15:52 (five years ago) link

I'll have you know that as a child I never dared interrupt substantive adult conversations about politics or weather given how darn close they clearly were to figuring it all out, what with my observations and anecdotes about toys, video games, hunger, billowing smoke or whatnot.

Evan, Monday, 19 December 2016 16:04 (five years ago) link

Children seem like a huge self sacrifice and the ultimate patience project. The tenants above me occasionally look after some and it's non-stop noise on the hardwood floors. Can't think of many things more challenging than that.

Everything Moves Towards The Sun (Ross), Monday, 19 December 2016 17:27 (five years ago) link

FWIW I'm too irresponsible to ever have children.

Everything Moves Towards The Sun (Ross), Monday, 19 December 2016 17:28 (five years ago) link

Not enough of this here

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CNm49X-U8AEz4vX.jpg

Camaraderie at Arms Length, Monday, 19 December 2016 17:48 (five years ago) link

FWIW I was too irresponsible to have children, but now I seem to have two and have no choice but to be responsible, and that seems to work out ok.

Camaraderie at Arms Length, Monday, 19 December 2016 17:50 (five years ago) link

Also, having lived in several non-western countries for years on end, though it worth noting that I never heard people saying they "don't like children" anywhere except UK - in China we were constantly having to stop strangers from giving them sweets or old people offering them their seats on public transport.

Camaraderie at Arms Length, Monday, 19 December 2016 17:54 (five years ago) link

Really, in the PRC everybody is nice to children, wonder why that could be

a Warren Beatty film about Earth (El Tomboto), Monday, 19 December 2016 17:59 (five years ago) link

Strangers giving children sweets does tend to be frowned on in the UK. A cat is to blame for this, not a dog:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3FnCiRpdQ4

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 19 December 2016 18:01 (five years ago) link

LOL, shows how long it's been since I've seen that, dogs are to blame, not sweets.

The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Monday, 19 December 2016 18:03 (five years ago) link

Children >>>>>>>>> candy

The burrito of ennui (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 19 December 2016 18:04 (five years ago) link

If you were stopping people offering your kids sweets that suggests it is indeed a bad thing to do.

nashwan, Monday, 19 December 2016 18:04 (five years ago) link

Yeah, I mean I used to train teachers and I told them not to give sweets to kids as (1) parents have own diet plans (2) unhealthy (3) they will associate sugar = reward / savoury = punishment (4) kids should be trained not to take sweets from people (5) demonstrates underlying poor motivation skills (6) possible allergies - so obviously we said no every time, without lecturing a stranger if possible.

Camaraderie at Arms Length, Monday, 19 December 2016 18:08 (five years ago) link

lex's parents being as uninterested in him as he wants other parents to be about their kids would explain a lot

― and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, December 19, 2016 1:39 PM (five hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i do hope this is the kind of thing you teach your brats to say in the playground

lex pretend, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:38 (five years ago) link

I don't have children, which you'd have seen the multiple times I said so in this thread if you actually bothered to ~pay attention~ to other people rather than concentrating on how much they entertain you, you fucking bore.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 19 December 2016 19:41 (five years ago) link

But if I did have kids I would unquestionably teach them to subject cretinous a-holes to endless mockery.

and this section is called boner (Phil D.), Monday, 19 December 2016 19:43 (five years ago) link

i do hope this is the kind of thing you teach your brats to say in the playground

p intellectually stimulating conversation tbf

Οὖτις, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:43 (five years ago) link

completely insane that an opinion that someone dislikes children sends you into utter insult-flinging meltdown like this. nagl dude

lex pretend, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:49 (five years ago) link

me, seeing this thread constantly at the top of sna: lol, children ARE non-human animals

( ^_^) (Lamp), Monday, 19 December 2016 19:50 (five years ago) link

fwiw i literally had no idea who you were before this thread but you seem to be acting as though you know things about me? yet you say i bore you?

lex pretend, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:50 (five years ago) link

can we poll the categories of human beings i dislike? cos there are quite a few

sleepingbag, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:51 (five years ago) link

lol, yes, lex, I've been posting here for like ~over a decade~ and I've read your writing both on and off ILX.

Lauren Schumer Donor (Phil D.), Monday, 19 December 2016 19:54 (five years ago) link

makes sense that fear of not being entertaining would cut deep then

lex pretend, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:57 (five years ago) link

https://media.giphy.com/media/13xwqzjTev2RIA/giphy.gif

scott seward, Monday, 19 December 2016 19:59 (five years ago) link

you're the one who's consistently gone for direct insults even when not being addressed

lex pretend, Monday, 19 December 2016 20:07 (five years ago) link

it's obvious that lex is heavily invested in his dislike of children and in his dislike of those who would have him like children. if his dislike of children makes him reviled by much of the world, he apparently is ready to turn his back to the world. ilx must accept this is lex's final position: he dislikes kids. (shrugs)

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 19 December 2016 20:17 (five years ago) link

if I accept it does that mean I can't make fun of it

Οὖτις, Monday, 19 December 2016 20:28 (five years ago) link

I mean I accept that lex's personality is beyond repair

Οὖτις, Monday, 19 December 2016 20:29 (five years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFHPsThGQ1E

scott seward, Monday, 19 December 2016 20:30 (five years ago) link

I remember the thrill I got when I first learned that tapping a particular spot near the patella caused a person's leg to kick. I did it over and over again. But eventually the thrill wore off.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 19 December 2016 20:38 (five years ago) link

I took a shit in someone's backyard once, as a child.

Evan, Monday, 19 December 2016 22:20 (five years ago) link

This needs to stop.

Treeship, Monday, 19 December 2016 22:21 (five years ago) link

children's poop vs (non-human) animal poop

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 19 December 2016 22:23 (five years ago) link

both are horrifying when they are on your hands

¶ (DJP), Monday, 19 December 2016 22:24 (five years ago) link

I guess I'm trying to say I just don't know where I stand in this debate.

Evan, Monday, 19 December 2016 22:35 (five years ago) link

caught you brown handed

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 19 December 2016 22:39 (five years ago) link

I took a shit in someone's backyard once, as a child.

have been hating this thread so hard but I love everything about this post and most especially the comma

though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Monday, 19 December 2016 22:59 (five years ago) link

A child will shit in the yard
But only a man would tell everyone about it

nashwan, Monday, 19 December 2016 23:00 (five years ago) link

Nighttime in the shitting yard
Get it out on the mainline
Do it
Doot dat doot dat doo da doo

tried Blue Apron and we died (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 December 2016 23:23 (five years ago) link

scat boo bap dee bappy wop doo daa

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 19 December 2016 23:36 (five years ago) link

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I took a shit in someone's backyard once, as a child.

JoeStork, Monday, 19 December 2016 23:36 (five years ago) link

childe Evan to the back yard went

though she denies it to the press, (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 20 December 2016 01:29 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

you know, this thread was pretty funny

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 22:02 (five years ago) link

Ya

N Vogue (darraghmac), Tuesday, 7 February 2017 22:07 (five years ago) link

clusterfun

Evan, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 22:53 (five years ago) link

I had forgotten about the whole dog element. Definitely tuned out before the grand finale.

how's life, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 23:29 (five years ago) link

one month passes...

testify

Pengest & Corsa (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 March 2017 18:42 (five years ago) link

it'd be nice of there was a place to air & work through bile & anxiety about ppl choosing to become parents where no one would take offense but yeah

ogmor, Friday, 17 March 2017 19:00 (five years ago) link

it does kinda suck being the only one in your group of friends to have kids and not completely disappear

frogbs, Friday, 17 March 2017 19:01 (five years ago) link

xp hm have you ever considered airing those grievances in a thread that isn't titled "children vs animals"

qualx, Friday, 17 March 2017 21:00 (five years ago) link

should we just create an I Hate Parenting board for lex et al

Οὖτις, Friday, 17 March 2017 21:05 (five years ago) link

such precious snowflakes

Οὖτις, Friday, 17 March 2017 21:05 (five years ago) link

could make him watch a comedy cooking show with dads and their kids and see what happens

https://media.giphy.com/media/uVOTxMagGsgXS/giphy.gif

nomar, Friday, 17 March 2017 21:08 (five years ago) link

w all indie guitar soundtrack

Οὖτις, Friday, 17 March 2017 21:25 (five years ago) link

hi qualx have you ever considered responding sarcastically to one of my posts in a way that suggests you haven't read it properly

ogmor, Friday, 17 March 2017 22:27 (five years ago) link

parenting is extremely stressful and often miserable

luckily i didn't have kids in order to make my life more relaxing and fun

Mordy, Friday, 17 March 2017 22:31 (five years ago) link

making my life more relaxing and fun is my number 1 goal.

Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Friday, 17 March 2017 22:39 (five years ago) link

i find having a dog and a cat a lot of responsibility

i think I'm definitely doing the future a favour by not procreating

Islamic State of Mind (jim in vancouver), Friday, 17 March 2017 22:40 (five years ago) link

I think people should probably be allowed to express sceptical views on procreation without automatically being branded as history's greatest monsters

Pengest & Corsa (Noodle Vague), Friday, 17 March 2017 22:45 (five years ago) link

Does explicitly hating children qualify for monsterhood tho

Οὖτις, Friday, 17 March 2017 22:47 (five years ago) link

Why did u have kids mordy

brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 17 March 2017 22:53 (five years ago) link

Fulfill expectations of my family and community
Fulfill my biological imperative to transmit genetic code
Religious tenets
Hopeful insurance to have support/familial bonds in old age
New ppl to play board games with

Mordy, Friday, 17 March 2017 23:00 (five years ago) link

my dad had a kind of dream about how cool it would be for us to hang at a bar together when i became an adult. do u have something similar re: w33d

mookieproof, Friday, 17 March 2017 23:21 (five years ago) link

Ok I've reviewed yr list and don't feel like I'm missing any of it but obv I'm glad you've ticked yr own personal boxes

brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Friday, 17 March 2017 23:29 (five years ago) link

One of the reasons not covered here yet: Many women want to have children (for their own completely autonomous and independent reasons, of course, but the trend holds true IME). Many of those women are interesting and desirable and fun to be around. Some of them even like to have sex!

Helping an interesting and desirable woman have children tends to be a really good way to cement a pair-bond with such a woman. You'll probably live in the same domicile, and current convention often puts you in the same bed with her. Through biologic necessity, force of habit, and conventional mores, you're probably gonna have sex with her (even after making kids).

If you are a hetero d00d and you value ready access to sex slightly more than you value variety of sexual partners, the whole marriage-house-kids thing can lead to a pretty reliable source.

Not the only reason, just sayin: it can be part of the cost-benefit calculation.

takin care of bismuth (Ye Mad Puffin), Friday, 17 March 2017 23:36 (five years ago) link

Awful reason to do it obv and one of the leading causes of trouble in the world

brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:06 (five years ago) link

If you're a dood that doesn't want kids then find a woman that doesn't want kids, the volte face in sexual relation dynamics and population trends can only be positive things

brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:08 (five years ago) link

ppl who make a point of defining themselves as "childfree" and go around contemptuously referring to ppl with kids as "breeders" are about as creepy and unpleasant as any other subset of ppl you'll find on the internet

(The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:12 (five years ago) link

True but this is the thread for abusing parents

brat_stuntin (darraghmac), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:14 (five years ago) link

Fulfill expectations of my family and community
Fulfill my biological imperative to transmit genetic code
Religious tenets
Hopeful insurance to have support/familial bonds in old age
New ppl to play board games with

All terrible reasons, but who am I to judge?

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:31 (five years ago) link

at least one of those reasons is responsible for the propagation of all life which admittedly doesn't have much to recommend itself except that it's more interesting than empty desolate terrain

Mordy, Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:36 (five years ago) link

I'll continue to tell myself I didn't have kids because I'm aware of carrying capacity.

Plus, Teufel is cuter and better housetrained.

http://i47.tinypic.com/2n59wg.jpg

Sanpaku, Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:37 (five years ago) link

(mordy i hope i didn't offend you with the w33d thing -- totally joeking)

mookieproof, Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:42 (five years ago) link

at least one of those reasons is responsible for the propagation of all life which admittedly doesn't have much to recommend itself except that it's more interesting than empty desolate terrain

Come on, board games aren't that important.

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:44 (five years ago) link

Best reason to have kids is that kids are terrific awesome creatures

But u can usually cancel that out by setting against sleep, cash and their becoming humans at some stage, also the fact that you can never again use public transport or eateries until they are idk 32

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:45 (five years ago) link

I think the best reason is meeting someone you love and thinking why the hell not? Just throwing that one out there.

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:46 (five years ago) link

lmk when you turn 32 xp

mookieproof, Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:46 (five years ago) link

I believe the children are our future.

(-Bob Marley)

takin care of bismuth (Ye Mad Puffin), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:47 (five years ago) link

Seems a bit randomly....random tbh. Not exactly first principle stuff, the aul 'arah fwy not' argument

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:47 (five years ago) link

I get the looking after me when no-one else will thing but the rest is meaningless to me.

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:48 (five years ago) link

no you definitely didn't offend me. i have smoked w/ my parents & generally i don't find it particularly enjoyable and i was wondering if my kids will feel the same about smoking with me? like is the problem that my parents are goofy stoners or does it bother me since i feel like the child/parent bond is kinda shallow when everyone is stoned if you know what i mean? like i have expectations about my parents even now as an adult such that i'm kinda disappointed when they're just dumb and obvious (excitedly telling me about some theory they just thought up is a bummer even tho like i understand - smoking w33d - we've all been there). but otoh i don't think i get like that when i'm stoned so maybe my kids will feel differently? i enjoy drinking w/ my dad so it could just be the particular personalities w/ the particular chemistry. xxxpz

Mordy, Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:48 (five years ago) link

Best reason to have kids is that kids are terrific awesome creatures

they can be terrific and they can be tedious. i think if you have kids because you think it's going to be an awesomefest all the time you're setting yourself up for disappointment. but you're right that there's plenty to appreciate in the moments when they're not whining, fighting, interrupting your conversation, demanding you turn off tinariwen and turn on the frozen soundtrack. i love reading books to them - my youngest loves the kate beaton kid's book and i never get tired of reading it - but sometimes they want the same terrible book for the 8th night in a row and you read it to them completely on autopilot while you think about something else. sometimes they want hugs and to cuddle up with you and it's wonderful and sometimes they've been touching you for 2 hours straight and you just don't want to be touched any more. they play nicely together and you feel really warm + proud and then one of them breaks a plate over the other one's head (don't worry, everyone is fine, it was a very fragile piece of pottery). like this goes on and on. parental pride when your kid accomplishes something is like nothing else. but you'll be disappointed too and embarrassed sometimes. so i'm just saying be prepared i guess.

Mordy, Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:51 (five years ago) link

All of that is still awesome because kids are allowed to be like that which is awesome rly

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Saturday, 18 March 2017 00:55 (five years ago) link

demanding you turn off tinariwen and turn on the frozen soundtrack

lol <3

mookieproof, Saturday, 18 March 2017 01:00 (five years ago) link

can't believe i just <3'd future phillies fans

mookieproof, Saturday, 18 March 2017 01:01 (five years ago) link

so proud when they throw their first battery at a player

Mordy, Saturday, 18 March 2017 01:02 (five years ago) link

"I think the best reason is meeting someone you love and thinking why the hell not? Just throwing that one out there."

I didn't even think why the hell not. I had kids with the only person on earth I would have wanted to have kids with. I didn't even think about trying to have kids or not trying to have kids. there was no hesitation or thought involved. and there is pretty much ALWAYS hesitation as far as my weird brain goes. i recommend finding this kind of person if you are gonna have kids. because there are all kinds of wrong reasons to have kids.

scott seward, Saturday, 18 March 2017 01:06 (five years ago) link

You know, kids can be frustrating, challenging, maddening, certainly exhausting, but there is nothing, and I mean nothing, like watching one of your favorite films, or a classic film, with them for the first time. In recent weeks we've seen "The Third Man," "King Kong," "Lawrence of Arabia" (well, most of it), "Shadow of a Doubt," "Close Encounters," "North By Northwest" ... Literally the best it gets.

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 19 March 2017 02:10 (five years ago) link

Nah I'm pretty sure the best it gets is the lime popsicle I'm having right now

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:05 (five years ago) link

Among the possible challenges and rewards that life may present you with, I find the challenges and rewards of caring for a new human and raising that person up to be decent, sensible, creative, kindly beings calls forth most of my best abilities. One also gets a very direct outlet for one's capacity to love, and love is surpassingly good, whenever and however it is called forth.

But if you hate kids, none of the above really applies.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:24 (five years ago) link

I think we need some more thoughtful rumination on how rewarding the incredible responsibility of raising kids can be. Is anybody on ILX up to the task?

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:30 (five years ago) link

I'm not sure if Thomas Edison ever had kids. But I hear he did other stuff and made some money and it all came out OK for him. He even got to meet celebrities and shit.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:43 (five years ago) link

Turns out Edison had a few offspring after all. Who knew?

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:47 (five years ago) link

xpost all of us get to shit

waht, I am true black metal worrior (Neanderthal), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:50 (five years ago) link

But only the lucky ones get to meet celebrities and shit.

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Sunday, 19 March 2017 03:53 (five years ago) link

ppl who make a point of defining themselves as "childfree" and go around contemptuously referring to ppl with kids as "breeders" are about as creepy and unpleasant as any other subset of ppl you'll find on the internet

― (The Other) J.D. (J.D.), Saturday, March 18, 2017 12:12 AM (two days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nowhere near as creepy as the "ready access to sex" post a couple above yours

lex pretend, Monday, 20 March 2017 13:38 (five years ago) link

Yes, that was post was, er, well I sort of wish I hadn't read it.

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 13:45 (five years ago) link

Dating sucks, so I decided to become a dad

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 13:47 (five years ago) link

The 'ready access to sex' post is so wrong on so many levels that it becomes almost amusing.

Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 March 2017 13:50 (five years ago) link

Our main motivation, frankly (initially), was that we didn't want to turn around in 30 years and regret having NOT had kids. After we'd decided on that Em definitely got quite driven about it though, and has described it as a biological desire switching on.

Hey Bob (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 20 March 2017 13:51 (five years ago) link

children are a great way to secure an orgasm-facilitator for an extended period

ogmor, Monday, 20 March 2017 13:53 (five years ago) link

"ready access to sex" doesn't really correlate well w/ marriage and kids let's be real

marcos, Monday, 20 March 2017 13:55 (five years ago) link

"I got married and had kids for the sex" probably the most o_O take I've seen in a minute

waht, I am true black metal worrior (Neanderthal), Monday, 20 March 2017 13:58 (five years ago) link

I was kind of disappointed that no one was going "wait, what" at that post when it happened

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Monday, 20 March 2017 14:06 (five years ago) link

"I got married and had kids for the sex" probably the most o_O take I've seen in a minute

Sex with the wife that is. I hope.

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 14:35 (five years ago) link

I never wait what a post until i see the djp position tbh you need to accept yr position as a major influencer

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 14:38 (five years ago) link

like this post from The Cut, in a world with no birth control!

http://nymag.com/thecut/2015/03/when-is-a-penis-too-good-to-break-up-with.html

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 15:36 (five years ago) link

For emoji, try eggplant, peace-sign fingers, bomb.

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 15:37 (five years ago) link

prob goes in the contro op thread but

people really shld be able to pass an intelligence exam and meet certain requirements to qualify to be a parent

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 15:50 (five years ago) link

hmm yes what could possibly go wrong with that policy, I can't even imagine

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 15:51 (five years ago) link

would you like a list of geniuses whose parents were illiterate/poor/horrible

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 15:52 (five years ago) link

Some of the worst parents in the world are the 'intelligent' ones.

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 15:55 (five years ago) link

intelligence not measuring doing quadratic equations genius

as if that's the only type of intelligence

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 15:57 (five years ago) link

Eh

Kind of agree with the lefty outlook here, but would add coda

- tbh its not like less kids is a bad thing, regardless of opportunity cost in random geniuses
- properly applied death penalty takes care of the offspring as and when they have it coming, removing need to regulate parental input on a predictive basis

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:07 (five years ago) link

we can build a time machine and if your neglected children turn out to be the wrong kind of neglected children then we go back and zap you
rich parents exempt

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:09 (five years ago) link

also to be fair we will do the same for non-human animals

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:09 (five years ago) link

it's not a matter of producing geniuses

it's a matter of ensuring a child has parents who can teach her/him moral and ethical responsibilities

the poorest in society shouldn't be forced to abort, but they should be highly encouraged to do so, yet they are the ones who produce more offsprings than the rich

to be clear, i was referring to interpersonal, intrapersonal, and emotional intelligence

if you asked me if i prefer (subject) genius/artist or a well grounded, normal, determined, productive person, i would choose the latter

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:14 (five years ago) link

the poorest in society shouldn't be forced to abort, but they should be highly encouraged to do so, yet they are the ones who produce more offsprings than the rich

I would much rather see more kids from the Section 8 families in my neighborhood than the Trumps and Hiltons of the world. Maybe it's just me.

Lauren Schumer Donor (Phil D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:16 (five years ago) link

you think trump would pass a morality/ethics test

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:17 (five years ago) link

Given "I think poor people should be encouraged to abort their children," I don't think YOU would pass a morality/ethics test.

Lauren Schumer Donor (Phil D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:18 (five years ago) link

99.999999% of people are neither the next Hitler nor the next Einstein. Leave people the fuck alone.

Lauren Schumer Donor (Phil D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:18 (five years ago) link

also i'm fully aware that what i'm referring to is a highly fantastical world and completely unachievable so we put other filters in society

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:18 (five years ago) link

pretty sure pro-eugenics opinions belong on the yr unpopular nazi opinions thread

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:19 (five years ago) link

eugenics was gene selection

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:20 (five years ago) link

F♯A♯(∞) ingeniously drawing attention to the similarities between parenting and social engineering, well played

ogmor, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:21 (five years ago) link

"the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics."

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:22 (five years ago) link

select one

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:23 (five years ago) link

How much should you be pulling down annually to avoid being encouraged to abort your unborn paupers?

Ongar Is An Energy (Tom D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:23 (five years ago) link

that is the achilles' heal ogmor

there would be too many people that would want to misuse the data to do away with the people they dislike because we live in a very connected world

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:23 (five years ago) link

only one selleck coefficient reads off the charts

Sufjan Grafton, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:24 (five years ago) link

"the science of improving a human population by controlled breeding to increase the occurrence of desirable heritable characteristics."

― Mordy, Monday, March 20, 2017 9:22 AM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

intelligence is not heritable pal

oustic pointed that out a while ago

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:24 (five years ago) link

the solution to the evils of parenting is not a bigger, more rationalist parent

ogmor, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:26 (five years ago) link

once we stop the uneducated and poor from reproducing and our population falls beneath replacement level fertility will the economic decline be worth the marginal theoretical gains to be had from our pseudo-eugenics program?

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:27 (five years ago) link

also i don't see where Οὖτις said anything about intelligence and heritability but that's a question surely beyond the scope of this thread

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:28 (five years ago) link

filial morality/piety is not based on strict rationalism

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:28 (five years ago) link

if you were pro eugenics you wouldn't hesitate to argue that the cost of unwanted and badly raised children is enormous

ogmor, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:29 (five years ago) link

fwiw tho (and i point this out as someone who controversially does not believe we should mandate testing for prospective parents) "The general figure for the heritability of IQ, according to an authoritative American Psychological Association report, is 0.45 for children, and rises to around 0.75 for late teens and adults."

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:29 (five years ago) link

ogmor

uh i'm not pro eugenics

when did i mention cost? i actually believe in basic/universal income

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:31 (five years ago) link

who would win in a gene poll

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:32 (five years ago) link

mordy

but check what iq tests for, right? i never mentioned an iq test

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:33 (five years ago) link

lol nomar

marcos, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:33 (five years ago) link

xxp i don't understand are you arguing that IQ test results are heritable but intelligence in general is not? what is it that you believe IQ tests measure that can be inherited but have nothing to do with intelligence?

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:33 (five years ago) link

∞ i'm not talking about you, i am invoking a generic/straw eugenicist for rhetorical purposes

however

surely if you believe ppl need saving from their impulses wrt having sprogs, you might have similar concerns about their ability to spend their allocated income prudently

ogmor, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:35 (five years ago) link

smh at lack of tierney itt

samovars are trying to steep (wins), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:36 (five years ago) link

firstly dudes

this is a decent read for what i'm referring to (not without its difficulties)

https://oolongiv.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/summers_filial_morality2.pdf

secondly mordy i mentioned upthread already but i'm talking about measuring interpersonal, intrapersonal and emotional intelligence, which are things the iq test has absolutely nothing to do with

i wasn't the one that brought up iq tests

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:38 (five years ago) link

smh at lack of tierney itt

I was literally about to post a Tierney pic but now I won't because it will look like pandering

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Monday, 20 March 2017 16:44 (five years ago) link

yeah I'm not into filial piety. you can't decide to have a child and then claim they owe you for the privilege of fulfilling your desires

ogmor, Monday, 20 March 2017 16:59 (five years ago) link

idk what that has to do w/ his pt anyway which is really about parental obligations not vice-versa nb i didn't read the whole thing maybe it goes into that at some pt

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:00 (five years ago) link

eugenics was gene selection

in practice, eugenics always selects genes based on 'demonstrated fitness', not from examining anyone's genes. being poor, illiterate, or physically handicapped in any way is considered a prima facie proof of your unfitness. I mean, you don't want society's scum, idiots, or cripples reproducing, right?

a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:00 (five years ago) link

i think he's saying we should only allow adults to reproduce if they get a good score on the MSCEIT

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:02 (five years ago) link

I think reproduction should be limited only to people who can reach a Donkey Kong kill screen.

Lauren Schumer Donor (Phil D.), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:04 (five years ago) link

fwiw altho there's no consensus in the literature it seems like most scholarship in the field has found that EI is hereditary as well

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:04 (five years ago) link

filial piety is a theory on how to build a good society

it's a lot more common in the eastern world (asia) and sommers brings in a more western style because it's not as common in the us/canada

that text is just a part of it

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:04 (five years ago) link

Aimless otm

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:05 (five years ago) link

I mean, you don't want society's scum, idiots, or cripples reproducing, right?

enough about the aristocracy

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:06 (five years ago) link

mordy that's just nonsense lol

u can't say such things without even backing them up

but i guess there are ilxors naive enough to gobble it up

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:07 (five years ago) link

Let's all reflect on the gorgeousness of Wilf the Whippet instead of going down a bad rabbit hole.

https://scontent-lht6-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/fr/cp0/e15/q65/17218378_10154181326271949_6948274833910745913_o.jpg?efg=eyJpIjoidCJ9&oh=50a9e1bf25fb986bd182eb1cc6870fd9&oe=596C1F9A

syzygy stardust (suzy), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:07 (five years ago) link

By gar, it's an old-fashioned eugenicizing, it's been a while

Pengest & Corsa (Noodle Vague), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:08 (five years ago) link

mordy that's just nonsense lol

u can't say such things without even backing them up

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18837613
http://darhiv.ffzg.unizg.hr/446/

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:09 (five years ago) link

in practice, eugenics always selects genes based on 'demonstrated fitness', not from examining anyone's genes. being poor, illiterate, or physically handicapped in any way is considered a prima facie proof of your unfitness. I mean, you don't want society's scum, idiots, or cripples reproducing, right?

― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Monday, March 20, 2017 10:00 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

very true! i guess we would need to first have a literacy rate of 100%

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:10 (five years ago) link

For global score, father - offspring correlation was .09 and statistically not significant, while mother - offspring correlation was significant, r =.22, which yields estimate of 44% for the upper limit of h". The regression of offspring on midparent score was .30.

so we should probably only test moms

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:11 (five years ago) link

mordy

you have to purchase that article, which i won't

reading the abstract, their sample size is a total of 449 people, 213 of them monozygotic twins (ie more probability of shared characteristics, iirc)!

both are less than .50

methodology is also not accessible which is what the test hinges on

this proves very, very little

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:16 (five years ago) link

monozygotic twins are how you do heritability studies for that very reason obv

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:18 (five years ago) link

like u realize "more probability of shared characteristics" is precisely what i'm saying is so and what you are so strenuously denying on the basis of nothing but that you don't want your eugenics plan to be contingent on heritable measurables?

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:19 (five years ago) link

wait why are there an odd number of twins

samovars are trying to steep (wins), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:19 (five years ago) link

213 pairs

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:20 (five years ago) link

why would you only test monozygotic twins?

uh selection bias much?

i tried googling for monozygotic/identical twins and couldn't get a rate for usa, but this site (not sure how reliable) says 3.5 out of every 1000

how would you be able to generalize with any significance given the figures of the link you provided?

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:23 (five years ago) link

http://www.twinstwice.com/twins.html

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:24 (five years ago) link

well this has been productive

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:25 (five years ago) link

i'm talking about testing heritability from parent to child

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:26 (five years ago) link

ok here's how it works -- you want to know how much something is hereditary vs environmental. so the best way to do it is find 2 ppl who are basically exactly alike and, especially if you can find sets that have vastly different environmental backgrounds, you then compare their various attributes. so if there's a high level of correlation that suggests that the thing you are testing for is hereditary. you seem to actually understand this because you understand that monozygotic twins are likely to share the same attributes, but you seem to be missing the consequence of that. if they are more likely to share an attribute that means that attribute is hereditary and not environmental.

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:26 (five years ago) link

it's hard to comment on this study because i don't have access to the methodology they used

but just the basic fact that this sample size is nowhere near to 1000 people is very problematic

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:30 (five years ago) link

where it's supposed to be the highest (mono-z twins), hereditability rates were even less than .5, anything less than that is a toss up

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:32 (five years ago) link

so you're arguing that EI is *not* hereditary, but that we should still test parents on it? that makes sense.

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:41 (five years ago) link

rmde @ this derail

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:42 (five years ago) link

here's the full paper: http://www.psycometriclaboratory.xentricserver.com/adminsdata/files/Emotion%20(2008)%20-%20TEI.pdf

The combined strength of the family and twin designs allows us to draw several conclusions. First, there are considerable genetic influences on trait EI, predisposing individuals to higher or lower scores. Nevertheless, as is the case for the Big Five, most of the phenotypic trait EI variance (which includes measurement error) is accounted for by nonshared environmental effects (e.g., experi- ences outside the family). The impact of nonshared environment on global trait EI ranges between 58% and 68%, according to the twin and family design, respectively. Second, the fact that the family aggregation estimates were lower than the heritability es- timates supports the view that the similarity of family members is mediated genetically and not environmentally. On the whole, these results are consistent with the hypothesis of negligible shared environmental influence on the trait EI population variance.

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:42 (five years ago) link

so you're arguing that EI is *not* hereditary, but that we should still test parents on it? that makes sense.

― Οὖτις, Monday, March 20, 2017 10:41 AM (five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes! it's measuring capability not genetics

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:47 (five years ago) link

thanks mordy will have a look

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:47 (five years ago) link

yes! it's measuring capability not genetics

but if its not genetic why would you assume it's transferable to children?

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:50 (five years ago) link

i never assumed that

i was engaging in a discussion with mordy about that because that is what *he* said

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:52 (five years ago) link

basically from that paragraph tho there are two problems for your theory: a. that there's a high genetic component which has unfavorable optics and b. that even within environmental impacts the shared environmental effects (experiences within the family) have a negligible footprint on IQ compared to experiences outside the family, which is to say that developing healthy emotional humans has very little to do w/ the parents' provided environment and to the extent that parents have anything to do w/ the kid's IQ it's primarily genetic.

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:52 (five years ago) link

sorry IQ = EI

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:52 (five years ago) link

i never assumed that

then... why do you care if parents have it? if it has no bearing on the kind of children they'll produce? make sense, man!

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:54 (five years ago) link

because it is an indication of their own moral/ethic capability, which yes, i assume, they would be able to teach to their children if they have these capabilities

lol i'm tryin! just it's a topic that involves a lot of in depth reading, not just casual conversation on a thread

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:55 (five years ago) link

my original comment about a 'test' was that a parent should have enough moral/ethical capabilities to be able to teach their own kids to be normal, productive, determined adults in society

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:57 (five years ago) link

maybe scratch normal, i agree that word is complex and has a lot of problems

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 17:58 (five years ago) link

which yes, i assume, they would be able to teach to their children if they have these capabilities

category error

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 17:59 (five years ago) link

fair enough

but i think it is a theory that is on the right track

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:01 (five years ago) link

but i think it is a theory that is on the right track if implemented would probably be close to a humanitarian disaster

fixed

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 18:07 (five years ago) link

Life is a humanitarian disaster stop abrogating our responsibilities

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:17 (five years ago) link

yr a humanitarian disaster

Οὖτις, Monday, 20 March 2017 18:19 (five years ago) link

mordy so two beefs with the pdf you linked (not necessarily about ethics/morality but getting in murky waters here)

With respect to trait EI theory, the finding that a substantial proportion of the construct’s variance is heritable has two important
implications. First, speculation about the determinants of emotional “intelligence” will now have to take into account the fact that one of the strongest predictors of adolescent trait EI is actually parental trait EI. In combination with the temporal stability that the construct shows even in children (Mavroveli, Petrides, Shove, & Whitehead, in press), this suggests that training and intervention programs, currently popular in educational and business settings, are unlikely to be more successful in changing trait EI than they have been in changing personality more generally (Costa & McCrae, 1986; Norlander, Bergman & Archer, 2002).

maybe i'm about to open a can of worms, so if you don't agree with the conclusion, that's fine, but there's a boy in my family who was diagnosed with autism at a very young age (i want to say 2, but my vague understanding is that he had to be a certain age for the specialist to confirm it). specialist said that if he was enroled in a lot of classes (cognitive, behavioural, etc., not sure what they are called technically) for it, it would improve his diagnosis. anyway, he did attend those classes. fast forward a few years and he looks and sounds like just about a normal boy. if i wouldn't know he had autism, it would be very difficult for me to tell. i have no evidence except this one anecdotal experience, but my point is that i believe it wasn't just classes, but his family that helped too. so, what your pdf concludes goes against these types of programs that clearly work for some, and would be good enough to keep around

and i would like to see the questionnaire the study used, because it does show testing for limited personality traits:

Of course, the main shortcoming of this argument is the absence of an established personality inventory from the research design, which prevents us from examining the phenotypic and genetic correlations that are key to deciding this issue (but see Vernon et al., in press).

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:19 (five years ago) link

lol oustic

used to yr hyperbole bud

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:23 (five years ago) link

EI in general is ime an incredibly flakey field fwiw, even in comparison to notoriously flakey IQ studies.

Mordy, Monday, 20 March 2017 18:30 (five years ago) link

sociology and psychology are not all bad

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:34 (five years ago) link

everything is bad

mark s, Monday, 20 March 2017 18:36 (five years ago) link

and it's getting worse

mark s, Monday, 20 March 2017 18:36 (five years ago) link

EI only a cut about anything related to the arts or humanities as a field of study

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:38 (five years ago) link

had a little too much corned beef friday

that may have been bad for me

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:44 (five years ago) link

so glad we replaced the conversation about having kids as a necessary cost of keeping a good fuck-buddy handy with a conversation about weeding out unsuitable stock

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:49 (five years ago) link

look I did what I could but there are only so many Genes

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Monday, 20 March 2017 18:51 (five years ago) link

Twas a shit derail tbf

Animals are better than kids because you can eat animals.

Your move, kid lovers

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:15 (five years ago) link

You can eat kids

Pengest & Corsa (Noodle Vague), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:17 (five years ago) link

if you eat a baby goat, all bases are covered

Rachel Luther Queen (DJP), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:18 (five years ago) link

Noble Irish heritage of arguing for this

Pengest & Corsa (Noodle Vague), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:18 (five years ago) link

There was a famine on and also we had company

The night before all about day (darraghmac), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:19 (five years ago) link

reminds me of dude that ate human brain not too long ago

https://www.rt.com/viral/380197-cnn-hindu-aslan-aghori-brain/

F♯ A♯ (∞), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:22 (five years ago) link

"Eating brains, that's where I'm a lion"

Pengest & Corsa (Noodle Vague), Monday, 20 March 2017 19:31 (five years ago) link

still amused ∞ kept calling Outis "oustic".

waht, I am true black metal worrior (Neanderthal), Monday, 20 March 2017 20:07 (five years ago) link

Pronounced "Eustace"

SFTGFOP (El Tomboto), Monday, 20 March 2017 20:27 (five years ago) link

one year passes...

Don't have kids. If you've had kids, raise them not to have kids. Also, sterilize your pets. (Don't sterilize your kids.)

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 01:56 (three years ago) link

everything is bad

― mark s, Monday, March 20, 2017 11:36 AM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and it's getting worse

― mark s, Monday, March 20, 2017 11:36 AM (one year ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 01:57 (three years ago) link

i don't have kids

but mind yr own fuckin business

mookieproof, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 02:00 (three years ago) link

something something something

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 02:23 (three years ago) link

Don't have kids.

macropuente (map), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:11 (three years ago) link

ive had dogs and a kid. kids are better. and i used to love my dogs but i dont give a FUCK about them now.

21st savagery fox (m bison), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:27 (three years ago) link

whether you have kids or don't have kids. my advice is to find ways to maximize your outlets for giving and receiving unselfish love. you'll still suffer, like all of us must, but at least your suffering will have meaning.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:31 (three years ago) link

Don't have kids myself, only have a godchild, and I've never experienced such love

I worry though about the future world she is going to experience

Dan S, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:47 (three years ago) link

Seems kinda selfish to have a kid just so your suffering will have meaning

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:51 (three years ago) link

um, that's not what I recommended, silby. read it again.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:52 (three years ago) link

I'm in a mood don't worry about me

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 03:56 (three years ago) link

love is real but i think people make a tragic mistake when they believe it can be selfless. not having children now seems like a very loving thing to do. not just 'not having children' but the way of life that it implicates.

macropuente (map), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:06 (three years ago) link

men: get a vasectomy

macropuente (map), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:11 (three years ago) link

get a vasectomy

done and dusted. back in 1993.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:17 (three years ago) link

in genuine admiration

macropuente (map), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:18 (three years ago) link

lol

Dan S, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:20 (three years ago) link

can we get separate vasectomies or do we all need to share aimless' vasectomy?

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:20 (three years ago) link

I heard South Dakota is considering legislation to make all men getting vasectomies watch films about fetal development, talking about their perfect little fingers and toes at sixteen weeks. nope. just kidding. Old white men don't give a shit if men get snipped. They only want to dictate what women do with their bodies.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 04:34 (three years ago) link

'the world is terrible don't have children that could work to make it better' is a level of defeatism i can't get with rn

canary christ (stevie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 11:51 (three years ago) link

like, pieces of shit aren't stopping having children, cf dtjr

canary christ (stevie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 11:51 (three years ago) link

yeah but the kids im not having wint have to fuckin deal with them

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:16 (three years ago) link

imo the argument about defeatism can be turned on head

"oh welp hasnt worked out, replicate quick!"

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:17 (three years ago) link

thats not a serious argument but then there are no serious arguments

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:17 (three years ago) link

I heard South Dakota is considering legislation to make all men getting vasectomies watch films about fetal development, talking about their perfect little fingers and toes at sixteen weeks.

acc to the Torah vasectomies is much more forbidden than abortion tmyk there's a specific verse in the OT (Deuteronomy 23:1) about the former and nothing about the latter

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:23 (three years ago) link

I don't have kids and will most likely never procreate but it seems like adoption could be a noble undertaking if I ever become a fully-fledged adult.

Also I would never render a moral judgment against others for having kids. I just worry about those others and their kids and say the secular version of prayers for their continued well-being.

Werther Down the Spiral (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:36 (three years ago) link

I'm fine with people disliking kids and fine with people taking pains to avoid the horrors of reproduction but kindly fuck off telling other people what to do

one slippery slope away from forced sterilization of undesirables

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:40 (three years ago) link

I'd vote for logan's run over children of men

ogmor, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 14:58 (three years ago) link

World full of nothing but adults is the true hell.

Werther Down the Spiral (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:06 (three years ago) link

I like to keep my misanthropy self-focused nowadays.

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:08 (three years ago) link

thats not a serious argument but then there are no serious arguments

it would seem so

canary christ (stevie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:08 (three years ago) link

There's almost a noble big picture streak in antinatalism but she it's invoked I think it's usually in v bad faith.

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:11 (three years ago) link

98% of ilx is tellin ppl what to do

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:15 (three years ago) link

Tru

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:16 (three years ago) link

nb i do actually think kids are great

not worth the hassle, personally speaking is all

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:18 (three years ago) link

Oh yeah I mean kids are fine people; I just think it’d be sensible if we wrapped up the project, for assorted reasons.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:20 (three years ago) link

yeah

parents

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:21 (three years ago) link

i love my kids. i also get extremely envious of people without kids.

marcos, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:22 (three years ago) link

Deciding not to have kids has probably been the best decision I took in the last ten years. It's a decision that gives me joy and peace of mind on a daily basis.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:57 (three years ago) link

i love my kids. i also get extremely envious of people without kids.

^

calstars, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:59 (three years ago) link

I’ll never have any children
I would bear them and confuse them, my children
And I’m not at all afraid of changing
But I don’t know what good it would do me
I am no longer afraid
The truth doesn’t terrify us, terrify us
My salvation is found in discipline, in discipline

0w3n P4ll3tt head-shakingly-i'm-not-worthy otm

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 15:59 (three years ago) link

life is more fun when you don't have kids and i'm excited for the day they're old enough that i get some of my recreational life back and can out to dinner and movies without paying a sitter a fortune. but also they give my life meaning and i don't know who i'd be without them. and also i hope they take care of me in my old age.

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:19 (three years ago) link

^^^

21st savagery fox (m bison), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:22 (three years ago) link

little kids are annoying often but bigger rule way more than you sad lot

droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:38 (three years ago) link

The best thing about kids is passing them back to their parents after whatever rambling story they're trying to tell you finally drifts to something enough like a conclusion that you can politely escape.

grawlix (unperson), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:40 (three years ago) link

I’m hoping the state will take care of me in my old age, but not as much as I hope I don’t get old

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:42 (three years ago) link

xp lil Malicks

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:44 (three years ago) link

Don’t you live in the US cuz

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:55 (three years ago) link

I babysit my friends' kids as. like, my civic duty. I am thrilled when I get to return them with little/no damage.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 16:58 (three years ago) link

I think having kids because you think that they'll take care of you is one of the most selfish reasons. Don't put that on your kid.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:29 (three years ago) link

If that's how it ends up working out that's awesome but that's also a hell of a lot of pressure to put on a kid especially when you're citing that as one of the reasons you had them.

Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:33 (three years ago) link

^^ otm x 1000

Also:

little kids are annoying often but bigger rule way more than you sad lot

― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, October 9, 2018 6:38 PM (thirty minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The bigger kids of today are tomorrow's sad lot. Probably even sadder than us iirc.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:38 (three years ago) link

no I was talking about all of you in particular vs the actual bigger kids I know

droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:42 (three years ago) link

I mean I have to spend time with adults because of work but what a bunch of navel-gazing bores in general whereas kids just want to play

droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:43 (three years ago) link

our kid is a constant joy and source of much terror, who needs a book of ghost stories to read at night when you know you're going to have a shadowy figure standing silently by your bed at 5 AM every morning?

it's still a mixed bag for me dealing with other people's children, because some of them are pretty obnoxious and one of them gives me some bad vibes, some real "we need to talk about Kevin" willies. But so many of them are funny and sharp and good people. Being around those kids makes me optimistic, it cheers me up.

omar little, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:45 (three years ago) link

sometimes i'll read my Facebook feed and think, jeez i really have to keep my kid off social media. not for bullying reasons but it's often just so wearying and cynical and disingenuous.

omar little, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:46 (three years ago) link

no I was talking about all of you in particular vs the actual bigger kids I know

― droit au butt (Euler), Tuesday, October 9, 2018 7:42 PM (seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

The actual bigger kids you know will still be sadder than us lot. After all we dealt them a planet, a life, even worse than we got.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:52 (three years ago) link

So basically since you’re all powerless to make the world anything more than a shithole, you have no faith in anyone else that resembles you being able to do any better. Reasonable assumption.

Also not having kids is easy as shit & saves you a ton of money, that’s another good reason & probably the best one. I’d prefer people stick to that rather than attempts to be high-falutin’ about it.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:53 (three years ago) link

sometimes i'll read my Facebook feed and think, jeez i really have to keep my kid off social media. not for bullying reasons but it's often just so wearying and cynical and disingenuous.


Why are you still on FB?

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 17:54 (three years ago) link

disappointing revive tbh -- there's just no substitute for lex's absurd solipsism

mookieproof, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:03 (three years ago) link

is the suggestion that you are going to save the world, or your kids are, tb?

nb i think the world is grand, apart from apocalyptists. every generation seems to think it has to save the world, seems v unlikely that theyre all correct.

my actual reason is yr second paragraph

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:10 (three years ago) link

Also not having kids is easy as shit

Rong

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:11 (three years ago) link

So basically since you’re all powerless to make the world anything more than a shithole, you have no faith in anyone else that resembles you being able to do any better. Reasonable assumption.

Uhm... yes!

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:12 (three years ago) link

disappointing revive tbh -- there's just no substitute for lex's absurd solipsism

― mookieproof, Tuesday, October 9, 2018 11:03 AM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was going to lay in to my heavily abstract anti-natalism based on the argument that it's a harm to come into existence but I lost heart. I want to reiterate that I think kids are good.

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:16 (three years ago) link

our kid is a constant joy and source of much terror, who needs a book of ghost stories to read at night when you know you're going to have a shadowy figure standing silently by your bed at 5 AM every morning?

lol yes

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:25 (three years ago) link

tbf I have distinct memories of doing exactly that to my dad, so circle of life etc.

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:26 (three years ago) link

Is "I want to pass on my genes/want to pass on something" still a thing for people to have kids? Or has that argument died along with the aristocracies and their (inbred) families? Do men (men bcz women wouldn't be this dumb) "value" passing on their genes still?

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:33 (three years ago) link

My aim is to leave as little trace of myself as possible. Posting on ilx not helping tbh.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:33 (three years ago) link

Thread's drowning in edginess. Didn't realise it was I Love Nihilism all along.

pomenitul, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:36 (three years ago) link

well "passing on your genes" is pretty neat, my boy is almost 4 and I can see he's got a face like mine and a number of my personality traits. you connect with them in a way you couldn't with any other human being. so that's cool.

frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:43 (three years ago) link

That is cool! Was genuinely curious, nihilistic or not.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:44 (three years ago) link

Seeing parts of myself in my kid is a source of mild delight tempered by mild oh noes

Actual full-fledged delight is when the confluence of mom & dad genes manifests itself in completely unexpected ways

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:49 (three years ago) link

I think having kids because you think that they'll take care of you is one of the most selfish reasons. Don't put that on your kid.

― Benson and the Jets (ENBB), Tuesday, October 9, 2018 10:29 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

god yeah i'm gonna be in no position whatsoever to take care of my parents when the time comes

princess of hell (BradNelson), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:49 (three years ago) link

Is "I want to pass on my genes/want to pass on something" still a thing for people to have kids? Or has that argument died along with the aristocracies and their (inbred) families? Do men (men bcz women wouldn't be this dumb) "value" passing on their genes still?

this isn't conscious for me at all but i assume this is animating all childbearing decisions since it's an imperative that all living things have

Mordy, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 18:54 (three years ago) link

my kids can be extremely challenging but by some goddamn miracle they stay in their beds when we put them to sleep and remain there until we go get them in the morning when they awake

marcos, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:01 (three years ago) link

But this is my question: do all living things really have that imperative? I don't think they do (anymore). I don't. I'm the first to admit I'm not by any means a yardstick in this, but the erasure of the imperative to have kids is something I see around me and my generation and friends quite a lot. I do not think it is a given or imperative any more. xp

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:02 (three years ago) link

assume this is animating all childbearing decisions since it's an imperative that all living things have

It is always good to remind ourselves that our conscious brain has only limited and marginal control over the rest of our brain and body. There's always more going on outside of conscious control than within it.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:03 (three years ago) link

We evolve tho, whether our "conscious brain" knows or recognizes this or not.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:05 (three years ago) link

I can count on one hand the number of women I know that are past childbearing age that don't regret not having children. those hormones are *intense*

and last time I checked the human population was still expanding/reproducing

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:06 (three years ago) link

oof

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:08 (three years ago) link

women are hormonal right enough

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:08 (three years ago) link

that is a hard one to parse tbh

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:09 (three years ago) link

men have evolved to the point where we mostly want to make children in order to pass on our musical tastes

President Keyes, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:09 (three years ago) link

then i doubly urge ilxors to refrain

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:14 (three years ago) link

tombot otm. For some couples it is extremely easy to not have children and also save money. Absolutely no regrets. Having a period already feels like being hungover, having the flu and eating way too much pasta all at once. Pregnancy is way too much stress on the body.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:17 (three years ago) link

My mom also worries about me not having kids and dying alone. I just start on my "we all die alone" monologue.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:19 (three years ago) link

I don't disagree with your last post Mordy but I think the idea of imperative is nebulous and I'm not sure of its explanatory power. We might well be products of desires we're not conscious of but without some maths I dunno. Not that I'm disagreeing, I just think selfish gene theory needs fleshing out.

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:19 (three years ago) link

my dad asked me just once about it i pointed out my civil service pension for future requirements and his own performance as a historical argument against

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:20 (three years ago) link

selfish gene theory has an addendum noting that individual reproductive drive/output drops depending on species/pack environment stressors iirc so yknow maybe that

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:22 (three years ago) link

I've felt for a long while that pure evolutionary theories tend to ignore the spanners that culture throws I their works.

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:23 (three years ago) link

there's an interesting bit in triste tropiques about how one of the tribes levi-strauss pals about with dislike having children, are openly negative about pregnancy and childbearing, and use abortifacients. the obvious idea is that in their parlous situation they don't need more mouths to feed, but none of the other tribes he encounters, in similar circumstances, are similar in that respect. culture is a weird thing

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:32 (three years ago) link

also you can have sex now without having kids idk if they have this where ye are but its a big deal where im from

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:46 (three years ago) link

all you bloody lot who don't want kids still bloody moan on and on on here. YOU DON'T KNOW HOW FREE YOU ARE, YOU SWEET FOOLS

kinder, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:52 (three years ago) link

(obviously lots of delightful exceptions)

kinder, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:52 (three years ago) link

which is to say, I have kids, I love them, I don't particularly love anyone else's kids, but man it is hard in these early years. I fully recognise I've got some sort of Stockholm Syndrome where my experience of what 'a nice time' is has been drastically downgraded

kinder, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:54 (three years ago) link

fucking without kids has often been a big problem for most catholic priests.

calzino, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:56 (three years ago) link

which is to say that "kids", like "people", is pretty weak as an abstract concept

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:56 (three years ago) link

Lol xp

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 19:56 (three years ago) link

It's frankly astounding how resolute I, my siblings, and numerous cousins on my mom's side (only one of whom has yet to make it to/past his thirties) are in making sure the family line dies with the lot of us.

Werther Down the Spiral (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:02 (three years ago) link

Lunch, uh, finds a way

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:07 (three years ago) link

xp Jealous! I wish that was what could bond me and my bro and sis, but alas. Sis has kids, bro dying to have kids (into IVF trajecotry now, he hates my guts for not wanting kids rn), it's not working out that way.

lbi's life of limitless european glamour (Le Bateau Ivre), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:15 (three years ago) link

that wish is a bit fucked up for your nieces and/or nephews

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:21 (three years ago) link

My mom is recently mad at me (again) because I am not leaving my brothers or their kids anything in my will. I only made a will because it was free to do. But also, it's shitty to expect anything to be left to you when someone dies.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:31 (three years ago) link

(My parents only made a will a couple years ago and I was incensed because, like, I was well into adulthood!)

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:32 (three years ago) link

Supposedly my brothers just finally decided to make a will and want to ask me to take care of the kids in case anything happens (considering one is a cop married to a firefighter, uh). But they won't ask me directly and keep asking my mom instead.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:35 (three years ago) link

i was left funeral expenses in one will and ive asked the other one to if nothin else just cover that pls and thankyou otherwise yeah fuck wills

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:35 (three years ago) link

I'm all for 100% inheritance tax

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:37 (three years ago) link

My entire family voted for Trump so I told them that I am leaving all my money to Planned Parenthood and Black Lives Matter.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:38 (three years ago) link

Apparently we’ll inherit like a few million when my dad apparently decides to bite the big one

F# A# (∞), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:40 (three years ago) link

xp if you reluctantly accept and end up remolding the kids of your trump loving brother into excellent humans, you could sell the movie rights

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:42 (three years ago) link

xp a few million divided by infinity is still zero i'm afraid

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:44 (three years ago) link

I lost my mind after the election when I heard that the kids in their schools loved Trump because Hillary was a liar and the kids are taught not to lie.

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:44 (three years ago) link

It's frankly astounding how resolute I, my siblings, and numerous cousins on my mom's side (only one of whom has yet to make it to/past his thirties) are in making sure the family line dies with the lot of us.

This does feel weird, it's the only part of not having kids that I feel a little guilty about. All those Jews who survived through the years. Not guilty enough to make me have kids, but I wish I had a sibling who was taking care of that.

Then again, that's what comes of a family who only got one kid out of five siblings (my mom's side), that's kinda on them. And there's tons of mental health issues so it's probably good that that side is done. And I do have cousins with kids on my dad's side.

change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:44 (three years ago) link

Yerac, my mom also expressed concern over my not leaving anything to my (single and childless) brother, which is weird because wtf he doesn’t need $. We’re gonna be the last stop on the family privilege train.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:45 (three years ago) link

hear hear!

Yerac, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:47 (three years ago) link

Inheritance law/ finance is a textbook example of how the (relatively) neutral fact of reproduction is politicized into reinforcement of a system

Leon Carrotsky (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:51 (three years ago) link

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton)
Posted: October 9, 2018 at 1:44:17 PM
xp a few million divided by infinity is still zero i'm afraid


Close

I’m sure it’ll be more like $300k per person when all is set and done

U kno the gubmint

F# A# (∞), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:53 (three years ago) link

i'm just gonna declare my will on ILX, 77 dollars to you all except for those of you who FP'd me in the past

frogbs, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 20:57 (three years ago) link

I wld never give ne money to u commie fux0rs

Wanna c all o u workin hard fer yr paycheck

F# A# (∞), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:00 (three years ago) link

How would I even go about leaving money to ilx? And what would ilx do with it?

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:31 (three years ago) link

ilx would just spend it all on hen fap

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:34 (three years ago) link

pay the server bill without a pledge drive i guess

21st savagery fox (m bison), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:34 (three years ago) link

I could endow an old folks home for indigent ilxors but who would i appoint trustee? Treeship young but no. Ned too old.

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:38 (three years ago) link

ilx would never agree on how much to give the server

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:49 (three years ago) link

Ha!

mom tossed in kimchee (quincie), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 21:54 (three years ago) link

I have kids, I love them, I don't particularly love anyone else's kids, but man it is hard in these early years. I fully recognise I've got some sort of Stockholm Syndrome where my experience of what 'a nice time' is has been drastically downgraded

― kinder, Tuesday, October 9, 2018 3:54 PM (two hours ago)

feeling this wheeeeeewww

marcos, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 22:13 (three years ago) link

i suppose so many people having children despite the fact that they've seen how crappy it looks to be the parent of young children shows that humans are not generally motivated by hedonism above all

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 22:19 (three years ago) link

masochism

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 22:58 (three years ago) link

eh

I am literally at this exact moment feeling very worn down & exhausted by children, but the peaks of today, while mundane and more or less impossible to convey to other, were still of the punch-the-parental-joy-centers, would still make me do it again, and I think there is a large amount of hedonism in there. I felt really amazing today watching my three-year-old spell out words. It's a feeling I am more than willing to suffer for, if suffer I must, which I must

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 23:03 (three years ago) link

3 is pretty young to be spelling words!

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 9 October 2018 23:12 (three years ago) link

i feel that the thread ought not to take the turn of ilx parents defending their children

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 23:52 (three years ago) link

let them stand up for themselves, toughen the lil bastards up i say

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Tuesday, 9 October 2018 23:52 (three years ago) link

Taking Sides: Moana OST Mono 2016 vs. Moana OST remasters 2018

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:03 (three years ago) link

3 is pretty young to be spelling words!

it's completely insane and we were not really ready for this. dude has so far done everything extremely early, from opening his eyes when he was super tiny to crawling to walking to forming sentences, we are baffled

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:18 (three years ago) link

Ha kinda like yrs truly

F# A# (∞), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:20 (three years ago) link

That kid has a future

Congrats Joan

You must be a proud momma

F# A# (∞), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:21 (three years ago) link

I am though the other side of this is my dude was done with his baby days VERY early and this is our last kid and I am in heavy mourning that my baby raising days are over and people talk about grandpa renting but I'm an older mom and there won't be a whole lot of grandparenting for me, most likely. still, this kid began a sentence with "in my case" about half an hour ago and I fuckin died it was so hilarious and great

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:24 (three years ago) link

lol "grandpa renting"

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:24 (three years ago) link

it worked tbh

Dmac TT (darraghmac), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:26 (three years ago) link

Nice

F# A# (∞), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:37 (three years ago) link

shooting the shit with a 3 year old near or past bedtime can be terrifying or magical

for i, sock in enumerate (Sufjan Grafton), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:40 (three years ago) link

Mr potty mouth

Breeze, if you please

F# A# (∞), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 00:42 (three years ago) link

still, this kid began a sentence with "in my case" about half an hour ago and I fuckin died it was so hilarious and great

― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Tuesday, October 9, 2018 8:24 PM (forty-eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

god I would just die

k3vin k., Wednesday, 10 October 2018 01:23 (three years ago) link

mine told me he was gonna take the skeleton out of my body

kinder, Wednesday, 10 October 2018 01:26 (three years ago) link

hahahaha excellent

she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 01:26 (three years ago) link

i enjoy talking to kids now and then, and they don't bite

my niece is almost 12 now, i like getting laughs as stupidly as possible from her, but obv she's a teen-rebel-in-training

a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 01:28 (three years ago) link

mine told me he was gonna take the skeleton out of my body

― kinder, Tuesday, October 9, 2018 6:26 PM (twenty-seven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

listen

can I get this service from your child, I desire it frequently

I have measured out my life in coffee shop loyalty cards (silby), Wednesday, 10 October 2018 01:54 (three years ago) link


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