Cricket

Yep, it's complicated.

There are six balls bowled each over, and there are a variety of different bowling styles such as fast bowling (80-90 mph) and spin bowlin (40-50 mph)...the bowlers aim is both to restrict runs and get wickets. The intracacies of bowling are hard to explain. Runs are scored by running between the wicket, or if the ball goes out of the playing area to the boundary rope it is singles as a 4, if the ball passes the boundary rope whilst in the air it is a 6. Runs are also scored by leg byes, byes, wides and no-balls.

It's probably best to watch cricket to get a good understanding of the game. The best team in the world is Australia. Hope this helps alittle!

***Hence off-spin and leg-spin (also off-break and leg-break), which bounce on the respective side of the batsman***.

It doesn't make any difference where they bounce - it's the direction the ball goes AFTER it has bounced which gives rise to the terms off- spin and leg-spin.

**Swing = when fast bowler spins the ball hard and it moves in the air***

The bowler doesn't SPIN it. Instead the seam is placed so that it is pointing to slip (out-swing) or fine-leg (in-swing). The best chance of getting swing is to use the fingers and wrist to keep the seam in that position when it goes thru the air. (It may move off the pitch in the same direction if the seam hits). The bowler can also influence this by the position of the front foot and by sweeping the bowling hand down the correct side of the body AFTER the ball has gone. If the seam wobbles in the air, you've less chance of knowing which way, and how much it will move (both in the air and off the pitch).

Reverse swing is when you go for outswing, but at the last minute the ball darts in towards leg after 'shaping' to go off-side. I've get to see a convincing explanation of HOW it's done, but it's a bastard to play!

To get around to the answer, Tracer, most bowlers do not get any appreciable swing - even if they follow the textbook. There seems to be something about swing bowlers actions which is not entirely coachable, whereas most people can get some movement off the pitch (seam-bowlng).

Occasionally even the best swing bowlers findthey can't control the amount of swing and get TOO MUCH movement so that the batsman doesn't need to play the ball.

If you really wnat to get wierd about bowling we can talk about leg- spin, where the top bowlers have several viciousl spinning deliveries which are bowled with slightly different actions. Some spin one way, some the other, some keep low, some go straight on and some are bowled with lots of disguise to look like one of the other deliveries. It's bluff and double-bluff.

It is an almost magical combination of the use of rare skill and athleticism, aerodynamics, and exploiting natural phenomena.

It requires humidity to create a more dense air mass, and for the ball to be buffed to a shine ON ONE SIDE OF THE SEAM ONLY.

When the ball is bowled with the upright seam and the extra spin along the axis through the seam imparted by the bowler's index and middle fingers along it, with a smooth,shiny ball face one side and an unrestored mucky one that creates more friction, for the same reasons planes fly, the ball swings to one side in the thicker air.

It usually also dips sharply, sometimes VERY sharply, and the extra energy this generates gives it tremendous bounce off the pitch, while the combination of the seam hitting the pitch, at an angle created by the bowler, affected by the other forces such as rate of spin, can make that bounce extremely variable in height and direction.

The bowler's action, and precise preparation of one side of the ball, without tampering, and the required air density, are the keys, and it's awesome to watch!

Glen McGrath, Brett Lee and Jason Gillespie are the best exponents of the art.

Cricket - Ballet and War, with Bats and Balls! ...lol

Greetings fellow posters. Nice to see so many erudite, informed individuals.

The US also has hundreds of cricket teams, and must surely be on the verge of entering a team in even a one-day match? That would be great.

Today in OZ I predict the Aussie batsmen will be smashing the world record for a final innings to defeat New Zealand...their form says they'll do it, but either way it will be FUN!!!!!!!!

Thanks for sharing an interest in cricket.

No, I'm not complaining. But the conditions would have been perfect for him on the first couple of days. It's a shame, he's almost 29 and for reasons of family pride I want him to get a decent stab at it.

of course, the cute new zealand bowler made watching like 10 hours of cricket so much more interesting:
http://www.rediff.com/cricket/2002/sep/23vet.jpg

1) Notts failed to get more than ONE bonus point from their game
2) Yorkshire and Durham drew
3) Durham got maximum batting points.

Astonishingly, 1) and 3) have already come true, and 2) looks to be very much on the cards barring an absolute mare for Durham tomorrow.

Notts would have got the 2 bonus points by taking 7 or more Sussex wickets inside 130 overs, an occurrence which happens in almost every single Championship game. With an abysmal bowling display, they took just 6, accruing one point.

Notts would then have got the 1 further point they needed by scoring only 200 runs in their own first innings. Sussex had scored 550-odd for 6, so the pitch would seem to have been ideally suited to this.

They crumbled from 130-2 to 165 all out.

One of the biggest chokes in recent British sporting history?

(P.S. I'm a Worcs fan)

anyone following the test in hamilton?

yeah, thought so.

me, but its a bit of a foregone conclusion now innit

just looked at the scorecard at lunch. 36/4 from 18 overs. the scores of cook and vaughan total 22 runs from 33 balls, which means the rest of the sorry crew have made 12 runs from just under 13 overs. A run an over???

fraser's comments are spot on: england would never have declared as vettori did. they'd have waited until about 3 balls before tea, just in case mccullum hit 50 sixes in a row.

Do colly and bell have the bottle to survive? Better in this situation than KP and co but that doesn't mean anything.

they'll survive for the best part of an hour or so, in the english way. i'd be very surprised if the match goes into the final session, once the spinners get into their ribs and there are 4 or 5 around the bat.

funny how these things cycle. england outclassed at rugby today, being outclassed at cricket in a country where they probably expected to win, and going through transition in football. contrast to a few years ago: rugby world cup holders, ashes winners, rooney breaking into the england team...

Well, as a scotsman I enjoyed the rugby at least :) The cricket was sadly more predictable.

As a working class Englishman living oop North I enjoyed the rugby.

You enjoy England getting beat at anything, Jim.

Nah, the cricket is painful. But they've lost the plot big time, and I'm not a fan of Vaughan nowadays.

explain the class ref?

as in, how it is important in terms of the sport?

in the meantime, collingwood: 0 runs, 30 balls. should be zero balls, no fkg fight.

I don't care for Rugby Union cos I've too many hoorays are into it. In fact Guscott came out with a classic bit of twattery midweek when they dropped that dude for going clubbing - he said something along the lines of that behaviour not being good enough for Rugby players, but you'd expect it of footballers. Cock.

"cos I've known too many hoorays who are into it", I mean.

fairdos. i'm not a hooray, or a northerner (altho i live in mcr), but i like both codes but prefer union. i think i like contested scrums more than uncontested. but i like the rigidity of fixed numbers of tackles in league, although that leads to a sterility in terms of lack of depth of player size/beef/athleticism. league is homogenised rugby, union still has the cream separated at the top of the bottle.

just getting at: why is rugby cursed with class? football isn't (although the moneyed types are trying to make it that way).

League is nothing in Scotland. We like Union.

I don't think Union is a class signifier outside of England, hardly. I don't dislike watching Union matches, tho I far prefer League which to me is a way faster, more beautiful game to watch. I just hate the England team and their smug, Daily Mail reading, management book co-writing players.

Oh i dunno, lots of posh people play rugby. But when it comes to the national team no-one cares as if they can beat England then it's good enough for them. It was one of the few sports we were good at.

collingwood's gone. 2 runs from 50 balls.

Collingwood lbw Vettori 2 (Eng 59-5)
xpost

i know, it's just i'm not smug and don't read the daily mail, but i prefer union etc etc. talking to my wife's uncle in keighley the other day, he used to report on league for the local papers. an avowed league man, had ended up watching the england france union game a couple of weeks ago. "and that constant rucking at the end of the game, that leaves me cold", whereas there was me feeling england had ground out the victory.

herman, i think what fuels english union fans is the knowledge that all the other home/euro nations have made their season if they stuff the english. it makes me (as an england supporter) feel like a man utd supporter (which i bloody ain't). but when it got to the last 10 minutes in murrayfield today i had to go to the kitchen to start cooking the kids' steaks. that horrible, hollow feeling.

No fucking chance of england grounding out anything in cricket. I should've learned by now really, yet I put myself through it all the time. The ashes is such a distant memory now.
x-post

(Eng 60-7)

and xxxxxpost, no posh people play league.

i can't get over uncontested scrums: if you don't contest them why bother locking down? why not just have a tap free kick with the opposition having to be 5 yards?

for fucking 7?????? (xp)

at least we're up to 2 runs an over...

67-8

Bells got us over 100 at least

110 all out. A fucking shambles.

I don't think Union is a class signifier outside of England, hardly.

A kind of relevant article I read yesterday: http://www.smh.com.au/news/sport/its-a-crime-how-footy-heroes-go-bad/2008/03/07/1204780065538.html

Also It's pleasing the NRL season starts next week :):):)

bump for ^^^ this article.

League is nothing in Scotland. We like Union

"We" being some border hill farmers and assorted bankers/ brokers/ lawyers in Edinburgh.

I don't think Union is a class signifier outside of England, hardly

Ha ha, right

Okay, I didn't know this. So Union is a poshoes sport everywhere except Wales?

I don't know about Ireland, but I would have guessed so there too

No it's NOT a fucking poshos sport!

Nor is Union a working class sport.

However folks of all classes play and watch it. I suppose it's predominantly middle-class.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/09/01/wags/p4.jpg

It is in Scotland (xxp) Which is why next-to-nobody plays it or watches it

http://www.sportingheritage.co.uk/acatalog/spc416_jason_leonard.jpg

extract from an interview with Jason Leonard :

When did you first begin playing rugby?

The main sport at my school, in Barking, East London, was very much football. Everyone wanted to play for West Ham, the local team. Rugby took off under a new sports teacher who loved the game and it appealed to me immediately. I liked the idea that you could run round for 80 minutes knocking lumps out of each other

I know that Bath considers itself to be posher than Bristol because it's a rugby town and not a football town. Also football games at the Mem = public transport is packed, streets busy with pedestrians; rugby games at the Mem = roads crammed with 4x4s and BMWs.

Look POLO is a posho's game. Rugby Union isn't.

Aussies postpone tour of Pakistan http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/7288996.stm

lol awesome stuff there. Vettori on the last ball of the over goes for a single to keep strike, but the ball goes to monty who lets it go through his legs for a 4. 2 balls later Gillespie is bowled and David Lloyd says it was all part of the monty masterplan.
NZ 181-9 in reply to England's 342

League is nonsense. However, Union might be the best sport played.

... wait isn't this a cricket thread?

rong.

anderson's one good test for another 3 years (and 2 back problems)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/counties/somerset/7297935.stm

and Vettori out for a duck. Didn't expect that. 3 wickets or 187 runs to win.

Billy Corgan is at the game!!

David Lloyd says Siamese Dream was a smashing album. lol
Roger Daltrey is there too.

Sidebottom and Broad are bowling really well. Impressive stuff. I hadn't realised Broad was so tall. He's 6'6 and still growing, so he might end up 6'8.
Used to love watching Joel Garner and Curtley Ambrose bowl. They were huge guys.

Mills out LBW. 270-8

311-9

Monty takes the final wicket Sidebottom shows his team mates how to catch the ball.. McCullum out on 85. Series is now 1-1.

Hair is back
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/7303232.stm

NZ collapsing like an English batting order here. Gone from 100-1 to 138-7
Sidebottom with 6 wickets.

Strauss makes a century!!!!!!!!!

And now Bell.

1 wicket to go at lunch.
Sky are showing the england fan from the other test falling while carrying his pint. I dont think i'll ever tire of seeing that. Hope its on youtube.

Here it is ! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyc22i1hVbk
youtube says its a kiwi. It was amazing that it was actual live footage as it happened. They were focussing on the crowd pointing out all the crazy barmy army fancy dress and they picked up the drunk guy and then he fellover. The whole commentary were pissing themselves.

This was brilliant too http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhP8d9U3RXI&NR=1

A win by 121 runs. Southee 77 not out after smashing sixes all round the ground in only 39 balls

Shoaib Akhtar given five-year ban
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/cricket/other_international/pakistan/7323360.stm

IPL has just kicked off, is this end of cricket as we know it?

Holy shit 158 off 73 balls from McCullum!

The first day of the first test and summer is....... where?

Any chance of this lasting til Monday does we reckon? The weather offers one hope that it might but by all accounts aren't England expected to give NZ a pasting?

They'll be extending each day's play should today be a wash-out. But yeah, a fairly good chance of play on Monday I reckon.

Then there's a fairly good chance I will be not at work on Monday I reckon. Still do cheapio final day tickets at Lord's right?

NZ 2/1

This ain't goonna last til monday.

Anderson will be swinging it about like no one's business.

NZ 104-5

pwn

Anderson will be shit for the next 2 matches then. The boys got talent if only he had consistency.

Captains innings from Vaughan, a century.
England 317-8. montys in to parter the skipper.

montys out 2nd ball

England 235-3 Strauss out for 106. 59 needed to win.
Will England collapse?

KP run out

Pietersen gone

Go the Bluck Cups.

An incredible and unlikely win for England!

Finally a gutsy performance from England when the chips are down. Well done Monty and Strauss!

Aus avoiding an upset

Great work from Clark.

bah bluddy Clark.

I know its only NZ but I enjoyed this.

Gotta feel if Collingwood and Pietersen find form, maybe dump Bell (bit of a Hick/Ramprakash type to me), MAYBE if Flintoff comes back batting well and firing in four over spells, THEN MAYBE, y'know...oh and I hear Simon Jones is recovering ok w/Worcestershire

Damn, i was hoping the Windies would win:\

Nah Bell aint going anywhere. Colly might get dumped if hes awful against SA.
Flintoff bat well? That would be a first. I suppose there's more chance of that however than Anderson being consistent.

Jimmy's on fire. 2 wickets with the new ball. I just wish he could bowl like this all the time.

Good innings from Broad as well. Boycs reckons he'll get a century before his career is over.

Oh I think he'll get more than 1. I think he will be a better allrounder than Freddie.

I would be more worried about his bowling than his batting

He needs to develop a metronomic action a la McGrath. He has the height, but not the pace at the moment.

Joel garner was in his late 20s before he got the pace. They're probably around the same size and Broad will get get stronger.

If England do go with a 4 man attack against Australia or South Africa we might have Freddie at 7 and Broad at 8.

Joel garner was in his late 20s before he got the pace

He was pretty good all along!

The BBC text commentary guy has annoyingly taken to calling Broad Malfoy. The beeb should have stuck with the factual stuff and not tried to copy the Guardian IMO.

Jimmy Jimmy
62-3

Good stuff.

4 down now. Jimmy nearly got Flynn LBW and he did next ball.

Jimmy is so frustrating because you know he can bowl like this, then he is awful for the next 3 tests. If he could bowl like this against SA/Aus then we might have a chance. But wouldn't be surprised if he was mince tomorrow nevermind the 2nd innings.

Going to the pub in a minute to watch this...

And Jimmy has a five-for

might have missed it all by the time I leave!

86 to avoid the follow on. but jacob oram could fairly easily knock through that in an hour on his own.

well, maybe two.

NZ inverted batting order.

Now here's something to play during the tea break:

http://img388.imageshack.us/img388/1995/629a1ji6.jpg

Jimmy now has 6

93-6 (Oram was the wicket btw)

This BBC stream is miles behind.

Fuck sake, I'm missing this, stuck in work... not that I'm doing any work of course

We need to take a backup of Anderson and restore it before every match.

4 to go for a laker

I think they will be going off for bad light soon

Can't see him taking 9 in the second innings however (xp)

Devon Malcolm took 9 wkts in a test match once, or did I imagine that!?!??!

and off they go. So no chance of 10 now if he cant bowl them out tonight!

He did indeed.

lol i wuz wrong.

Given his luck Collingwood will come on to hold up an end and rob Jimmy of a 10 for.

Why the fuck cant they just use floodlights?

XXpost

Yeah lightening striking twice etc.

Danny V there trying to break Andersons hand.

hurrah for pubs and drinking and JIMMYYYYYYYY *belch*

Follow on enforced and NZ are 45-2

"Devon Malcolm took 9 wkts in a test match once, or did I imagine that!?!??!"

9-57 against South Africa at the Oval to square the series -- one of the great spells of out and out fast bowling I've seen. So great.

"Flintoff bat well? That would be a first."

All those innings against the Aussies in the Ashes over here. Unlike Bell, they were made when it actually counted.

Harmison bowled well in the ashes against Aus in England but i wouldnt have him back based on past glories. Flintoff is not and hasnt been for a few years good enough to bat at no6. He will get in as a bowler.

He has had injury problems for a while, etc. but if he gets his bowling on song he'll get the batting right as well -- and it would be good enough for no6.

holy shit what a six from KP. He just switched hands as Styrus bowled and hit a six left handed over long on. Amazing stuff.

Now Shah is hitting sixes. Fun Fun Fun.

The MCC will discuss the legality of Kevin Pietersen's remarkable switch-hitting strokes on Tuesday.

I was gonna start an ILC thread about this.

holy fucking jesus

PAUL COLLINGWOOD YOU UNSPORTING PRICK

New Zealand is calling this "Underarm II", lol.

yeah because graeme swann should have just fkn underarmed it gently towards the non-striker's end amirite

lol spirit of cricket and fair play lol

i'm no collingwood fan either dude, at least the right result was (somehow) achieved

Easy to apologise when it doesn't mean anything.

TS: The country that tried to killed Don Bradman with some leg side deliveries vs. The country that whinged because a lesser Chappell brother bowled it underarm that time.

Now I put it like that, I'm backing England on this one.

The great thing about the underarm incident, which nobody seems to have ever picked up upon, is that the ball was still bouncing, fairly slowly, when it reached the batsman. One big heave could have still done the trick (and shown up the Aussies for being gutless losers).

:D

The papers made a lot more of this than BBC commentary, which I suppose is to be expected. Apparently the Kiwis slammed the dressing room door in Collingwood's face when he went there after the match.

Colly's Folly

Utterly ridiculous

Louis where is your outrage?!!

That's some bullshit right there.

I'm outraged, if that helps!

It's crazy. They refused to come out and play and the game was forfeited. How can that be changed? A draw?? yes I know Pakistan probably would've have won it unless England had a remarkable comeback, but they refused to play. The laws of the game are they forfeit the match.
They could've won the game then made a complaint. But they didn't. It's a complete farce.
Who the fuck is running the ICC?

Jonathan Agnew made a good point in that article linked to above: if you're losing, just refuse to come out and play, and you'll get a draw.

Or at least that's the precedent the ICC is setting.

If this affected the series outcome they would never have changed it.

Yeah, don't like some umpire decisions and just refuse to play and that's cricket fucked.

Did the result of that one dayer were Sherwin Campbell was allowed to come back out to bat after being run out because of a collision with Brendon Julian stand?

No idea

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/F10569147?show=50

It's a fantastically relaxing game to watch.

The fielding arrangements seem to conform immaculately to the principles of Feng Shui.

Louis you seen this yet?

Yeah and I'm fucking appalled, partially because history has looked dimly upon the Pakistan team's integrity and partially because I predicted 3-0 before the series began and went round crowing to everyone after that wound up the eventual (although alas impermanent) scoreline.

Have any of you cricket guys read "Anyone but England" by Mark Marqusee? Really gave me a different perspective on cricket and the often dodgy politics that surrounds it. One of his points was that Pakistan have a history of unproven innuendos about ball tampering being made against them, for example in the 1992 series in England. This might explain why they took such umbrage in 2006.

The only argument Pakistan could possibly have is that they were well on top in the match when it was called off, and probably bound for victory. But they made their decision and had to face the consequences. Protesting by staying off the field is pretty much a one-way ticket to loserville, and Hair's accusations of ball-tampering were, I'd imagine, well-founded. Most countries have done it at some point, if you're caught, 5-run penalty, fines, accept it, carry on. Don't throw a fucking strop like idiot babies.

No I haven't read that book but it look intersting, will investigate!

Also, in yesterday's Evening Standard (picked up free of charge on a train, not bought) I found the word "umbrage" spelt "umbridge". Either listening to the Archers while writing or just plain flaming incompetent. Note to newspapers: please employ people who are not iliterate (HINT).

Oh I agree that Pakistan were wrong to walk off, it's just that their actions didn't come out of nowhere, and that there's a history to this. You're right that all countries have a history of ball tampering, but it seems to be Pakistan in England that get pilloried for it.

I would highly recommend the Marqusee book. He's an American sociologist who fell in love with cricket in the 70s. This gives him an outsiders view of the game, and he has some pithy stuff to say about it.

I found the word "umbrage" spelt "umbridge". Either listening to the Archers while writing or just plain flaming incompetent. Note to newspapers: please employ people who are not iliterate (HINT).

Is that a "don't employ me, please" hint, then?

Ah, self-depracation will only get you so far it seems.

Shoaib needs a job

BBC now reporting Michael Holding has resigned from the ICC over the issue.

Michael Holding has resigned from cricket's governing body, the ICC, over its decision to change the result of a 2006 Test between England and Pakistan.

Pakistan were deemed to have forfeited the game at the Oval after they refused to return to the field when umpires accused them of ball tampering.

The tourists were later cleared of the latter offence and on Thursday the outcome of the match changed to a draw. "That game should never, ever be a draw," said West Indies legend Holding.

606: DEBATE
Give your reaction to this story

Holding agrees Pakistan were innocent of ball-tampering but insists their refusal to retake the field should have been punished.

"When you take certain actions, you must be quite happy to suffer the consequences," he said.

"I have just written my letter of resignation to the ICC Cricket Committee because I cannot agree with what they've done.

"A lot of things that are happening today that I don't want to be involved with, so I've moved on."

Fucking West Indies. Thirteen needed off three and a half overs with six wickets in hand and they lose by 1 run. Shit, shit, shit.

Michael Holding in integrity in cricket vs historical revisionism shockah.

Pakistan refused to return to the field. Therefore, they forfeited. The game therefore was not, and never will be, a draw.

So can we expect low scores from England againt the SA bowlers and a 4-0 test series defeat?

Not if this rain keeps up.

You think that's Englands only hope?

I come to the cricket thread and what are the English talking about? The weather.

Throwdowns to Graeme: England - SA series summer '08

and its a collapse

England 148-3 v South Africa day one

England lost three wickets in three overs to slip to 117-3 midway through the first afternoon at Lord's.

Andrew Strauss (44) had looked in good touch after England were put in, but he was given out by Daryl Harper to one replays showed pitched outside leg.

Until then the South African attack had not threatened England, Alastair Cook notching his 11th fifty in a 114 stand.

But Michael Vaughan (2) missed a good one from Dale Steyn that swung away and Cook (60) gloved a brutal rising ball.

Bell and KP partnership of 192 takes England up to 309-3. Well done (now keep going tomorrow!)

Good batting pitch so wonder why SA put ENG in to bat.

Smith should have known it was a slow pitch, but thats easy for me to say innit!

Great century from Pietersen. Lets hope Bell gets his tomorrow as well.

and i hope they make big scores and colly/ambrose contribute too

Well played Ian Bell!

use the ILC thread!

No.

Colly just got an absolutely shocking decision there.

i'm going to ignore you until you use the specific thread

did someone speak?

Fuck david cameron on TMS.

Agreed.

I'm glad I have sky sports then

I'd rather a fly in my ointment than be smeared with shit ;)

As long as that cunt stays away from sky sports coverage

Well done Bell, shame about the double hundred miss -- but I'm glad he actually made a great contribution when I didn't believe he could. Hopefully he'll go on now and that 199 won't be read any other way, should he not go on an be amazing for England.

It's a real shame he didn't get the 200. I remember when Gooch was out for 196 against Australia in 1985. And of course his 333 4 years later.

5 i mean

And he was dropped on 30 by the Indian wicketkeeper

bah, Eng bowling economically with little cutting edge and SA bore on towards a draw...

the problem is it's still a great batting track, SA are going to be much tougher on a second innings, all down to Monty at the moment but this is where you need a Flintoff to get you a wicket or 2.

Yay for the return of The Sheffield Shield!

Freddie definitely playing tomorrow, then.

Did Mark Pougatch's commentary on TMS in the 1st Test annoy other people as much as it annoyed me?

He should stick to football.

He wasn't that bad! Arlo White, now he's a (thankfully absent) disgrace to the profession. None of the BBC lot even approach Talksport's Andrew McKenna when it comes to sheer fist-in-mouth terribleness, though.

Can't we take all this to the series-specific ILC thread?

NO!!!!

Easier to use this thread as a rolling cricket thread isn't it?

Can't we take all this to the series-specific ILC thread?

I don't do other boards, dear boy.

Pougatch was just trying FAR too hard, I AM TALKING LOUDLY ALL THE TIME BECAUSE THIS IS "SPORTS" AND IT IS EXCITING. Boycott such an arsehole too.

Now this is where we're gonna have to fall out a little. Boycott is the best. He's also very, very rarely wrong, and surprisingly progressive/liberal in his thinking.

Cricket chat should be for everyone not sub boards that noone else reads

but, you see, everyone can access the sub-boards, everyone can see what's on the sub-board...it wouldn't be the biggest mental leap imaginable to check I Love Cricket if you wanted to talk about cricket

also if you're not using site new answers by now you're a total stone-age spacker

Boycott: you're right he's rarely wrong, but it's his air of absolute certainty, along with his constantly claiming the wisdom of hindsight, that makes him annoying. Worth listening to when Agnew's winding him up though.

Now this is where we're gonna have to fall out a little. Boycott is the best. He's also very, very rarely wrong, and surprisingly progressive/liberal in his thinking.

Progressive about cricket I take it you mean, certainly not politics! He might know about cricket but he's a charmless arrogant twat

really we only need one cricket thread, no point having a whole sub board for it.

Aggers' sense of humour is sublime

Tom D very OTM here.

(xp) Whereas Boycott's barely exists beyond, "Ha ha, Agnew, you only took 3 test wickets, that's rubbish that is, I wish I'd played against you"

WHAT?! Boycott and Aggers are great together, but for PRECISELY the opposite reason! I like his air of absolute certainty, because I reckon he backs his chat and he doesn't baulk from voicing what he feels, unlike the Sky Sports fudgers.

Yeah I do mean about cricket. I don't think he applies his arrogance to other people. And he's far from charmless, he's very entertaining and I'd say charismatic in his own way.

That sort of baiting isn't representative of Boycott's deepest grasp of humour ffs, it's just a way of keeping Eeyore in check! :D

I have found that when I read a Boycott article in the paper, I can hear his voice in my head. He's great, he walks really fast too, he whizzed past me at Lord's once.

That sort of baiting isn't representative of Boycott's deepest grasp of humour ffs, it's just a way of keeping Eeyore in check! :D

Of course, but it doesn't work because he has so little charm and such little grasp of the mechanics of humour, I agree that he's interesting to listen to however!

Boycott doesn't NEED Aggers' smug public-school nuance and underhand wit, though, because JUGGERNAUT RIGHTEOUS CANT will always defeat the former. And Aggers carries on moaning and being conservative and not understanding spin, and the world stays on its axis.

That's not JUGGERNAUT RIGHTEOUS CANT so much stereotypical blustering bolshy Yorkshire windbagisms, a la Trueman and Illingworth and take yer pick

oh come now, boycott is a completely different animal to illingworth, he's very supportive of all the current players, and their individual techniques, he's a fan of innovation on the game (such as 2020) and expressive strokeplay, he understands all the things that make cricket great, be they dashing innings in limited overs games or tense periods of knife-edge test cricket

Darren Pattinson????

lol australia

Tremlett, Jones, Hoggard, Harmison and about 20 other bowlers must be feeling pretty annoyed right now.

Tremlett - crap + injury prone
Jones - not ready yet
Hoggard - finished
Harmison - should have played here, but you can understand the selectors being thoroughly sick of him by now.

Harmison should never play for England again. There is no forgiveness as far as I'm concerned. The man is a weak-headed idiot and he does not deserve a dime of recognition from the selectors.

Tremlett seems a pretty good prospect to me, was intermittently very good last summer.

Probably agree re. Jones.

Hoggard's home ground, expected to swing, still think he has test match cricket left in him. If they were looking for a horses for courses pick, he would seem to be the metaphorical horse for this course.

Harmison should never play for England again.

SUPER-REAL TALK

I have a lot of time and love for Hoggard (by FAR the best and most interesting personality in recent England teams for a start), and I think he's been unlucky to be ignored thus far. If he really turns it on for Yorkshire over the next couple of months I can't see him being ignored for the winter tours.

I think Hoggard's a bit of a one-trick pony but the competition ain't fierce, y'dig?

NV, as a friend of mine said, "Harmison really is shit. What a total fucking idiot. Send him to Afghanistan."

Trem is the least threatening 6 foot 8 bowler you could imagine - just doesn't have the (controlled) aggression that he needs to make an impact.

x-post Hard to disagree with you on Harmison. I suspect that Vaughan and Moores don't want him, and they're in the best position to judge. He has stayed fit and taken wickets this season though.

I have some sympathy for Harmison, but I figure his head has been destroyed to the point where he will never be a big game player ever again.

Hoggard expanded his range in the last couple of years, though. He bowled very accurately with a bit of cut on unforgiving surfaces and reaped rewards. He's at his best when it swings, sure, but there's no denying his great skill. True, he looked bad against NZ in that one Test but I'm certain that was a blip rather than a permanent loss of bite.

The thing with Harmison is that much as he's stayed fit and taken a few wickets (no five-fer tho) this season, he quite simply doesn't deserve to return after the manifest weak-headedness and run-candy-to-top-level-batsman waywardness we've witnessed over the last three years.

Ambrose at 6 worries me in this match.

Ambrose in at all, an Aussie-born Sussex and Warwickshire player, is of great agony to me. He isn't even that great a batsman. We'll need the runs from our top five and number eight.

Particularly with Flintoff still finding his way when it comes to batting.

But at least Broad will be in at eight.

The world's most irritating sports official fucks up again...

There is that...

Vaughan gone too.

Not sure he should be in the side for the next Ashes.

He certainly needs to get some runs in his next few innings. Changing captain this late wouldn't be very helpful though.

KP for skipper!!

Hmmm....

Has Louis abandoned ILC?

And KP does not need the go boost of skipperdom.

England need the go boost of having such a positive individual as KP their captain.

GO BOOST!!!

Okay what happened there? My desktop scorecard says that he was out, but then apparently not.

Dear oh dear - I'm not a man for ranting, but that is an utter disgrace. Strauss edges Morkel to AB de Villiers at second slip, the fielder dives forward and rolls over celebrating the catch. The entire South African cordon leap around claiming the wicket, but Strauss stands his ground - and rightly so, because De Villiers not only dropped the ball but then pushed it along the turf before turning his palm upwards and pretending he'd taken it cleanly.

Cheating twunts.

AB De Villiers dropped a low catch, it popped back into his hands, and he claimed it. Fucking cheat. Fortunately the umpires sent it upstairs.

XPOST

And now he is out!

So what are we using the "I love Cricket" board for now?

I'm still banned from ILC :D

Whoops, KP wallops himself out.

BRING BACK PRIOR

OR FOSTER

ARGH

"Cheating twunts."

indeed, England had several catches like that and on every occasion if the fielder wasn't sure he didn't appeal.

Weirdly I'm looking forward to the SA innings, 2 pace bowlers who they didn't think they'd be facing including a complete unknown + Jimmy Anderson and Broad.

It will either be amazing or backfire terribly, either way England have to get them out for under 300.

uuurgh backfiring terribly seems to be the order of the evening.

Oh dear. Maybe they thought Pattinson would be like Neil Mallender.

yes, SA only have to score nothing and stay in and don't they know it.

Smith looks in ominously good form. BTW, are there any South African ILXors?

Mitch Lastnamewithheld was from SA, but I'm not sure if he posts anymore.

I guess they'd be round these parts gloating if there were any.

Kallis gone, 2 quick wickets tomorrow and it's game on.

Bet the sun comes out and, it turns into a batting track tho.

I desperately want to wring the umpires' necks. Especially that miserable fundie Christian cunt Bowden. SA should be 5 down.

Also I doubt we'd have collapsed but for that toilet decision Cook copped.

Having watched the highlights, Flintoff will bowl them out tomorrow.

Amla out. Apparently it wasn't lbw. Can't wait to see Pattison on the highlights tonight.

Harmison = match winner, but he needs to be in exile for a while...I can see him playing next summer.

Would be good to see him firing against the Aussies, perhaps roughing up Hayden a bit.

I was def thinking of him roughing up Ponting.

Harmison should def not be taken on a winter tour. Home tests only, and maybe only the next Ashes.

Tom Courtenay, talking in the lunchbreak, has revealed that Omar Sharif is apparently a big Hull City fan.

Can we just give up and go home now?

Harmison is back. Broad will be dropped supposedly if Sidey is fit.
I would rather have Jones back. It's just been too easy for Harmison to get back in the side without much effort and a change of attitude.

41 first class wickets at 21, appaarently bowling around the 90mph mark. He couldn't have done much more in my book.

I fucking hate Steve Harmison. He's a complete moron and he'll always get cheap wickets in county cricket, put him against the South Africans and watch him wilt. Stuart Broad will be twenty times the cricketer he is.

Doesn't Jones need more time?

Unfortunately, 'will' isn't good enough Eng need the 'now', and Harmison is as good a bet. England are in flux, the nucleus of a v good team is present, but some we're in short supply of form.

What was the idea behind Pattison's selection? Moving on from Fletcher is fine n' all, but you can't go all workmanlike and do it for the sake of it.

Harmison simply doesn't deserve to play for England. That is all. I don't care if he's bowling at 90 mph. He has forfeited all rights he has to play for the England team as far as I'm concerned.

As for who should play instead, well, I'm a Worcestershire fan so I'd better shut up for fear of bias accusations. All I'll say is that we have two English bowlers on our books who have done magnificently this season, with better figures than even Harmison.

LJ is a bit harsh, I like harmy, but i dont think he has the right attitude, plus he will just get homesick and bowl like shite in the winter tour as always. He shouldnt be brought back until next summer IF he continues good form. Has he taken 5 wkts in an innings this season?

The one major bias I do have is a bias against stupid cricketers, which is why Panesar isn't a favourite of mine. He, however, at least has (something like) the right attitude.

Monty rules so shut it

Monty is one of the most brainless cricketers I've ever seen. His interviews betray a mind utterly empty of anything except "bowl it in the right areas". I've met him and when away from the cameras he punctuates with "fuck" and "fucking". His boon is that he is a bowling-machine, a single-minded sportsman with one talent, that for plonking it in the right place with spin. But he is not by any means the sort of vibrant spinner that I so thrill to watch. Sri Lanka just trounced India thanks to two men, one old one new, who purvey the beautiful art in an intelligent and profoundly innovative manner.

If Harmison bowls really well it would be hard to NOT take him on a winter tour: one more pathetic crack at solving this enigma, which isn't an enigma at all and just attitude, as you say. So yes, I'd hope they would resist any temptation. xp

Not sure it's entirely attitude to be fair. He's a bowler who needs lots of bowling to find a rhythym and he's not always had that on overseas tours. Hardly his fault if he's undercooked going into a test due to lack of warm up matches. His attitude is a factor though.

Not sure that Monty's stupid either- he has a degree from Loughborough, and always seems quite thoughtful to me.

Anyone watching the 2020 finals today? Might try and catch some of it down the pub later...

A degree in computer science. His final mark is unsupplied. Let's face it, his cricketing ability probably had a say in his acceptance, especially at Loughborough. Let's just be glad he's an international cricketer rather than a video-store clerk, eh?

I'm listening to the cricket, might watch the final up t'pub before Selzer's big do. Anyone going to that, I'll see you there!

haha louis being snobbish about a degree. Damn oxbridge student!

I'm not being snobbish about a degree, I'm merely saying that having a degree doesn't necessarily mean that one has much intelligence, especially creative or constructive intelligence.

Harmison being interviewed on 5LSE, happy to be back in the Test squad apparently! Well done him. :-|

Maybe it'll turn out I've been ridiculously harsh and he's genuinely found himself again. But as things stand I feel he's very lucky to have been given another chance after he threw the last one away in such a pathetic, profligate manner.

So, Harmison is not being selected after all, with Collingwood in for Broad. Weird. Whatever you think of Harmison, it seems bizarre to go to the trouble of bringing him back into the squad, then not to bother selecting him.

Selectors have a lot of questions to answer this series.

When I was at university, a degree from Loughborough was pretty much another way of saying "I R dum but gud at sprtz"

Very strong on library studies, believe it or not!

They also had quite a good physics department ;)

I AM NOT CONTENT

let's solve our bowling crisis by replacing a bowling all-rounder with an out-of-form batsman who happens to be good mates with the captain

GRRR

Broad should not be dropped.

This pitch does not suit Harmison though, he should have been in the last match.

the only changes should have been sidebottom in for pattinson, foster for ambrose, broad up to bat at 7, flintoff at 6, foster at 8, anderson 9 etc

oh and bopara/shah for vaughan, KP captain, but that's personal grump coming through

Broad's bowling not good enough yet

Fuck it then, Broad to bat at 6, he's got the talent and the composure to make it there. 5th bowler duties for him, Flintoff 7, Foster 8 etc.

"I reckon the lad needs to go back to goundy grigid, learn his trade a bit... I didn't get where I got to, as the greatest human being in the universe, without first learning my trade with Yorkshire Goundy Grigid Glub..."

Boycs actually wants Broad in the team, as a batting all-rounder.

For me:

Strauss
Cook
Vaughan (C)
Pietersen
Bell
Collingwood (will come good again IMO and bats well with Fred)
Flintoff
Ambrose (until the end of this series anyway)
Sidebottom
Anderson (had no luck at Headingley, Edgbaston should suit him)
Panesar

Broad needs a rest and to get some overs under his belt at county level. No doubt that he could be a proper all-rounder in future though.

And I've totally repeated the cliche Tom D lampoons above!

Yup,

Broad is currently better at both bowling and batting that Collingwood, move him up the order make him 5th bowler, take the batting pressure off Flintoff.

Flintoff was an all rounder that was supposed to be a better batsman than a bowler but it turned out to be the opposite, perhaps Broad will go the other way.

I like the idea of having differently weighted all-rounders in the squad at the moment.

Broad's never batted higher than 7, has he? Relying on a 20 year old bowler to stiffen yr batting line up, Sarf Ifrikans would be loving that.

Until he takes a hundred off them. Anyway, if he fails, there's a safety net beneath. In theory.

A long tail, in other words, and particularly if Freddie doesn't score any runs.

Long tail wouldn't matter if the batters could bat!

Hey, not forgetting our stirling wicketkeeper.

There is the argument we should go the other way and pick Matt Prior to bat at 6.

I think a long tail might take a bit of pressure off and let people rediscover form.

However if the pitch is a flat track we're screwed.

Give Bell the gloves, train him up.

Ugh, the purist in me is vomiting at that thought.

The purist in me despairs every time I see Ambrose and Prior trying to keep wicket

Yeah, well Foster seems to be the consensus choice.

Anyone reckon Jones should get a match soon? He's been talking up his chances, but Worcs are treating him with kid gloves at the mo.

He's bowling quick, the majority of his wickets have been Div 2 lower-order batsmen tho. Kabir Ali has been our real star man this year, he's in phenomenal form.

I'm a (casual) Worcs fan too. Ali used to be on the fringes of the England team didn't he?

He got a game in the Test side, last time SA visited. Wicket in his first over, 5 overall, but England lost the game thanks to Gary Kirsten and Monde Zondeki putting on the luckiest 100 partnership you've ever seen. Then Andrew Hall had a bit of fun and that was that tbh.

He also had a run of games in the one-day side, with varying degrees of success, and a few real highlights, until the last two games of a series against Sri Lanka, in which he was rather spectacularly demolished on a couple of very flat decks. That's the last we've seen of him in an England shirt at this stage.

Also, why is it that every other Test team is so infinitely more likeable than ours? Why did we get all the crusty, tight-lipped, dullard cocks?

You mean every team but Australia?

I like most of the Australians! Except, like, Hayden. Brett Lee is a massively awesome guy and if you can't see that then I feel sorry for you.

As Australian teams go i suppose this one has plus points - no Waughs for instance

Steve Waugh was a great spokesman for the game, a great and open theorist, and a man I would happily do drinks with.

Michael Vaughan is a sullen, secretive PR man.

I get the impression not even Australians like their team (Esteban to thread?). Vaughan is still very likeable, despite bad form w/bat. Steve Waugh came across as nice considering how tough he was in the field, unlike Boycott who has to wear his mask on at all times.

Monty takes wkts and influences games => cricketing intelligence, and all that matters.

I can see Broad being left out in the sense that sides are often unbalanced with two all rounders however in bringing Harmison and Flintoff they're undoing the work to move on from the Fletcher era that seemed to drive Pattison's selection for the last test. Selection is completely incoherent at the moment.

Monty is only much use on a turning deck, or against substandard batsmen, and he doesn't have the variation or guile to consistently trouble the best. Cricketing intelligence DOES matter. Look at Harmison. Fairweather bowler, hugely talented in the physical sense but the brains of a peanut. Vaughan has never been especially likeable IMO.

Devon Malcolm >>> Harmison

Totally disagree. I agree that Monty isn't, say, Warne or Murali but those two are one offs. He makes things happen as his record so far shows and I think he'll get better with age, too.

The intelligence talked about upthread seemed to be of a non-sports variety. Harmison problems seem to be of an iffy temperament, a lack of application...

Never liked but LOVE Vaughan really, his poor form with the bat is painful to watch.

xp = er, no. Devon now was really even more maddeningly inconsistent.

That last bit was deliberate wind-up nonsense. They're both as bad as each other, but at least Devon never lost pace, or pretended to be anything other than a scattergun, if he never gained such a decent run of returns as Harmison once did before the wind changed and he didn't know how to cope.

Vaughan the batsman = a thing of beauty when in form, sadly he's lost his eyes I reckon, and this'll be his final summer of Test cricket.

Monty does make things happen but like I say he's a bowling machine. The best batsmen will always be thinking a step ahead of him. Not that he isn't, at present, well worth his place.

Vaughan will be in the Ashes next summer, easy.

The problem with Monty is that he's not enough of a machine at times.

Is that what you want spinners to be, machines? Is that right? Go and look at the scorecard, and indeed the online highlights, of India's much-vaunted batting line-up being utterly ravaged on a flat deck by two Sri Lankan spinners. Then tell me that Ajantha Mendis and Muttiah Muralitharan are 'machines'. They're both fantastically clever, devious, unpredictable purveyors of the beautiful art, and if you think plonking it on a length at 55 mph with a bit of turn is going to make you a legend of the game like Murali, then think again. Monty needs to mix it up a lot more, but I'm not sure he has the mental capacity to do so successfully. He's gotten where he is through sheer hard work, bowling ball after ball in the nets, perfecting the machinery, and yet we don't see a doosra, we don't see variations in flight, we don't see a particularly great arm-ball (true, he gets a lot of right-handers lbw, but mostly beaten for pace if anything).

Vaughan won't be in the Ashes side if he doesn't get a couple of decent scores before then. I reckon he's got one, maybe two fifties at the most left in him for the rest of this summer and over the winter.

No need to infer all of this from a little 'deliberate wind up nonsense' - I only see highlights but I want him to do the simpler things better, maybe...spinners have time on their side, there won't be any doosras but certainly a few variations as he gets older. Completely uninterested as to whether he turns out to be a legend, which wd prob be a good thing in his case.

More robo-Monty, for sure...

>I get the impression not even Australians like their team

most of em are fine really.

Were you being sarcastic about Brett Lee though L0uis?

that guy is a coooock

I also dislike: Michael Clarke & Shane Watson.

Monty does the simple things very well. Lands it in the right "areas". Fucking yawn. Areas, areas, areas. It's all he fucking says, or does. No deceit, no guile, no beauty save the odd time he hits a spot on the pitch and fires a ripper past the shoulder of the bat. All in the areas.

Sorry, I'm biased against certain kinds of personality, I'll shut up about Monty. His "cult" irritates the tits off me, mind. WAYHAY MONTY BARMY ARMY LOOK HE FIELDED A BALL LETS GIVE HIM A BIG PATRONISING CHEER, WHAT A LEGEND, I LOVE HIS WICKET CELEBRATION, EVERY TIME, JUMPING IN THE AIR GOING WELL MENTAL, ITS WHAT ID DO LETS BE HONEST WAAAYYHAAAYYY

Nah, I think Brett Lee's ace! Can understand the Clarke dislike far more. I don't like the Aussie team as people so much since Gilly, Warne and McGrath retired. Not only did all three attain true greatness, but they were genuinely super ambassadors for the game as well.

"Areas", yes, but my impressions is that he does it 70%, not 90%...now you've mentioned it I wonder if he gets overexcited (trying to psyche out batsmen) he kind goes off the boil at times. So he needs to cut that out.

Which, basically = more robotic.

He really doesn't bowl that many trash balls. If he did he'd be a sort of low-rent Ian Salisbury, and would be out the team quicker than you could say "nought for a hundred and twenty three"

When he does slightly miss Position A, he bowls quick enough that he often gets away with it. Sadly the lack of variation in pace means that batsmen can accustomise themselves to the trajectory, and survive, barring a freak ball or an instance of bad luck.

Just to er, end this one from last night...never said he bowls 30% trash balls. He just isn't Murali, either, which is fine for me.

Christ, what do you want from Monty? He's won several test matches for England, including one this summer. He IS prone to the odd lacklustre match, but overall has been excellent since he came in. Orthodox finger spinners are always going to rely on subtleties of flight, length and spin to get wickets rather in comparison with the likes of Murali, Warne and Mendis who can produce enough freakish deliveries to do the job.

Those of us who watched the likes of Emburey and Miller toiling away ineffectually for England in the past surely appreciate what a good bowler Monty is.

Also - the one sure way for Monty to mess up his whole career would be to change his nicely grooved action in search of a 'doosra'. The only orthodox finger spinner who has had one was probably Saqlain (Murali is a wrist spinner, whichever way his stock delivery turns). I would say that Monty's arm-ball isn't used often enough and when it is, doesn't seem to have enough dip to decieve batsmen and get lbw. Maybe he should work on that, rather than a doosra.

Dr C OTM.

As they keep saying on TMS, Monty needs to vary his pace more, his bowling still shows a lack of confidence.

Oh dear oh dear oh dear.

When exactly was Michael Vaughan's last decent batting performance again?

Answering my own question, he has the sort of knock you'd expect from a number 3 about once every 6 months.

Dr. C - I don't have a problem with Monty's results, by and large; my difficulties with him are on points of spin-bowling principle, namely that he doesn't seem to think batsmen out, rather "hits the right areas" until they get themselves out. It's an attitude thing. A doosra or well-grooved arm-ball would be great, but the main thing I'd like to see would be a mastery of pace, a dominating mindset, and setting his own fields rather than letting Uncle Mike do it for him.

Although Uncle Mike won't be the top boss for long if this continues.

Cook, Strauss, Vaughan, Pietersen, Bell, Collingwood.

Who goes and why?

Vaughan and Collingwood because they're woefully out of form and they irritate the tits off me with their interview conduct.

Given that the capt is the worst performer getting rid of the others on form seems wrong.

Strauss recently redeemed, but seems to have stuttered again.

Cook, scores 40-50 a lot is "one for the future" but doesn't seem to be good enough yet, do we chuck him out and get someone new to do it all again?

KP, is a genius but needs to get in to show it, very likely to get out early on.

Bell, scored 199 on a good pitch which according to the press cemented his international credentials but I still have doubts.

Collingwood, cant cope in tests, but is one day captain so should be able to.

SA are showing they are incredibly strong in both batting and bowling, them against Australia will be very interesting.

Cook and Bell are the two men I'd trust the most at the moment. Hopefully we won't see too many more SA celebrations this afternoon.

cook gone :(

As seen on TMS:

"As a Yorkshire fan I am backing Vaughan to remain England captain - purely because I don't want him back in the Tykes' batting line up."

Pretty gruesome stuff at the moment by the sound of it.

Collingwood playing like a man who knows his place is under intense scrutiny.

Hahahahahahaha!!!!!!!! Beautiful timing. GET THIS MAN AWAY FROM OUR TEAM

Still to score 100 1st class runs this season, apparently.

10 first class innings so far this year, 96 runs between them. Utter rubbish. xposted

Broad would have scored more than that, then taken a few wickets.

Sidebottom out too. Freddie may as well throw the bat now. Dismal day for England.

lol completely pathetic

I want to cry.

"Those of us who watched the likes of Emburey and Miller toiling away ineffectually for England in the past surely appreciate what a good bowler Monty is."

See, you're right, I wonder if we are over-appreciating Monty bcz Eng hasn't had a decent spinner since who the fuck knows when...I don't think I had ever seen one since Monty came on the scene (Tufnell def wasn't it). Anyway, totally otm. The 'doosra' stuff is v funny now.

Eng's batting is straight out of a horror novel at the moment.

Also, who is to blame for this match starting on Wednesday -- can we actually give up on the one day game altogether and space out test matches and get them starting on Thursday.

Louis pulling out the stops on this thread: I Like Geoffrey Boycott; Monty Is Stupid and Shit etc. Tuffers was a good bowler, couldn't do anything else mind you.

Also, fuck a doosra

Monty isn't shit per se, he just doesn't appeal to me on an aesthetic or intellectual level, and I doubt his bowling has much penetration against the very best. Doosra or no doosra. That was just an example. Now you mention it, incidentally, Tuffers was jusy slightly more useful in the other two departments than Monty is.

No no, however shit Monty is at batting and fielding there is no way he is as bad as Tufnell!

Thing about Tufnell is he actually had batting talent, opened the innings at school, just didn't have the bottle against quick bowling. His batting against spin was often pretty classy, but he rarely had a chance to show this. :D

"lend us a brain Tufnell, I'm building an idiot!" = best sledge ever!

oh just bring Monty on already :D

Vikram Solanki with a blinding hundred before lunch at Cheltenham, btw.

Bit of a fightback going on here

Yeah I know!

why isn't Monty on?

Vaughan's been reading ILX. 21 leg byes in a score of 140-odd? Is there anything Tim Ambrose actually can do?

LOL @ England pioneering the three man bowling attack

LOL @ you blaming the keeper for leg-byes

Ha ha, I'll blame Ambrose for anything, him and Thatcher

I don't like the fact that the most quintessentially English position in our team is taken by an Aussie, and a Warwickshire Aussie at that, but he hasn't been THAT bad with the gloves.

Fred's 200th test wicket

Wait until South Africa are less than 50 runs behind England and then bring on Monty, nice one Vaughannynynyyny

A friend and I were making this exact same point on MSN, Panesar shudda been on as soon as that 4th wicket fell.

That could be crucial. England and Flintoff denied by what was according to more or less everyone the worst not-out lbw decision ever.

England are cricket's answer to Gordon Brown at the moment

:D I'd like to see Gordon Brown bowl one of those! Justice.

Brilliant, bye bye Fatso!

Sounds like it's all going off at Edgbaston. Good batting perfomance needed now, I'll believe it when I see it though...

Well played Paul Collingwood!

it's becoming a classic!

http://www.britsuperstore.com/acatalog/Kp_Salted_Peanuts_500g.jpg

likely showing it in the pub if i were to leave early?

KP out :-(

FAP.com doesn't mention a TV.

grrrr

knives are out for kp in the tms box

yeah Stewy's not happy...

and rightly so.

not gonna make any difference now...

Flintoff gone as well

its all over now

LOL anyone expecting to watch any cricket on saturday or sunday (fuck a wednesday start for a test)

:(

Looking a little better now. Who'd've thought that Collingwood would end up hitting a 6 to bring up his 100, hey?

Super innings.

Okay, so what kind of lead is going to be enough? I'm thinking 250 would be good, but 300 would be much much better...

We might get 250, we won't get 300

Still 3 wickets to go. I think we could get a 300 lead.

It's looking pretty good!

Good knock from Sidebottom...

Oh.

From 65-0 to 93-4. Crazy stuff. All started from Flintoff's wkt, apparently McKenzie couldn't see the ball. Kallis seem to have got out in a similar way...

England have had nothing but shitty umpire decisions this series.

fucks sake that was off the glove. fucking umpires

England lose the series, deservedly so given their mostly shoddy batting performances (and fairly toothless bowling). Some people are gonna throw their toys out the pram and blame umpires/Kevin Pietersen, but really it's team responsibility, and England weren't good enough.

Also, the British have been traditionally terrible at "giving credit where it's due", and altho they bowled abysmally at Collingwood and company for long period yesterday and today, and altho half their players were useless at spotting 87 mph deliveries coming out of a dark background, the South Africans deserve all the praise they get.

Well done for extending Colly's career by another 2 years, a masterstroke. Remember, next time he's one game away from permanent expulsion, just bowl wide half-trackers at him! And bring on your worst-ever Test bowler for a 20-over spell!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dd/Burial_at_sea_Feb2004.jpg/800px-Burial_at_sea_Feb2004.jpg

KP England captain then? I never thought I'd see the day, Neville Cardus will be rolling in his grave etc etc...

It's what absolutely needs to happen. Cardus would be loving it.

KP shouldn't be captain. His form will suffer and he's not mature enough and is far too irresponsible. Vaughan was by far and away the best man for the job.

You are a silly armchair fan who doesn't understand how cricket works, and is spouting tabloid opinion in lieu of any genuine consideration.

Pietersen is highly mature, works harder at his game than anyone, and is anything but irresponsible (hence his average being 10 higher than anyone else's).

You are a silly armchair fan who doesn't understand how cricket works

I played cricket when you were still in nappies.

Yes, pls to explain "how cricket works". Who are you, Fred Trueman?

Sorry, I'm just a bit het up about the weight of unthinking criticism KP is receiving for not scoring a hundred every Test. Also, playing cricket doesn't mean you know how it works; there are enough international cricketers spouting unalloyed shite in the commentary-box as it is. KP in charge would not mean an irresponsible captain, it would mean a dynamic, aggressive captain, rather like the fella who's just trodden all over us.

Good summation of Vaughan's captaincy:
http://content-uk.cricinfo.com/magazine/content/story/363563.html

DEAR EVERYONE POSTING TO BBC 606 COMMENTS BLOG

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FUCKING STUPID

"KP is a big stupid ego player, no brain, let's get Rob Key in as captain!"

DIE

It's fair enough to have reservations about KP as captain IMO, it's just there is no other feasible candidate. Had Vaughan's knee forced him to resign permanently a couple of years ago, we'd have Strauss as captain now, and he would probably be a better captain than KP.

But it's too late for him now, I meant to add above.

Strauss is the ONLY alternative. And I'd still say KP is well ahead of him. The amount of ill-informed tabloid idiocy spouted by cricket "fans" is quite, quite amazing. We even get the merest hint of base comedy with the "Chris Read should captain England" brigade.

English cricket in disarray shockah!

"Chris Read should captain England" brigade.

Mondeo Pop XI?

Pissed off when I first heard about this...however there is nothing I'd like more than seeing Vaughan back in the runs. Which, as long as there are no more injuries, is a good possibility.

Well done on Collingwood's awesome hundred as well, and good timing on the announcement.

The thought process behind choosing the captaincy seems to be that it should not be split between one day and test, in which case KP is a no-brainer. otoh, the one day game might not be around for a lot longer, so I dunno if anyone should be thinking like that.

I'm ok with Kevin, I see him as Viv Richards like, but whenever I've seen Viv being interviewed (never seen him play) I sensed an inner steel that he'd pass down, maybe (anyone who has seen plz feel free to correct?), and not too much clowning around. Basically I don't see KP ever straddling that line between flamboyance on the pitch with the necessary toughness that you'd need to keep ppl in check.

Strauss is more in the Hussain/Vaughan mode...he is more detached. But we need his runs more, and like H/V the captaincy will work against his batting. Bcz KP is not in that line there is a chance it might improve his batting, so I'll go for KP.

None of this will matter if we don't find more incisive bowlers than Sidebottom.

KP doesn't clown around! He scores lots of runs with unconventional strokeplay, but do you see him messing around in the field? Of course not. He's deadly serious, his batting is deadly serious but not scripted along the lines of conventionality. KP is very tough, and I'd venture to say commands an aura of awe within that dressing-room. He works harder on his batting than just about anyone else, and the results are plain: bowlers fear him.

Also, you sensed an "inner steel" with IVAR? Good lord, the man was made of titanium.

Just inside the back of the Lord's pavilion (the players' and members' entrance) there is an enormous painting of Sir Viv. Staring straight at you. With a contemptuous sneer. "You play as much cricket as you want, but you will never, and I mean never, be as good as me." It's there for a reason.

Viv is god. Wish I had been old enough to have seen the 70s knocks but the 80s ones I saw were awesome.

Not clown around on the field, but he has a mouth in him off the field. The tabloids could have a field day with him, and like it or not that's important.

He really hasn't said that much that sets him up as a risk. The obsession with not saying anything that isn't about hitting the right areas or playing the ball on its merits is damaging, and so what if he expresses a somewhat forthright opinion? All other international captains do it, why can't ours? Besides, he really doesn't do it THAT much, and his private life is placid compared to most.

Vaughan/Hussain had plenty of fortright opinions. Its all a question of tone...

Vaughan's have been mostly kept under wraps. Hussain was outspoken but not often directly confrontational (off the field). KP is brash, so what? We need some of that brashness.

Totally disagree, brash becomes reckless and lack of attention for the small details. Vaughan and Hussain had the right tone and were tough. Can't say the same for KP but I'll give it time.

We'll see how it works...lots of questions have to be asked of the selectors, which unfortunately aren't being asked today.

KP has no attention for the small details? Have you watched him slowly and magnificently "work out" a bowler? Maybe he's not so good in the field, but there's only one way to find out.

er...we're talking here about how he projects himself off the field, not his batting.

Well, the bottom line is, we'll see. And we will. I have faith.

I read somewhere that Strauss average was higher as a captain (56 as opposed to 40). Admittedly that was over the course of only 5 tests but could this be a rare occasion where a players batting is reinvigorated by taking on the captaincy as well? He seems a more measured character than Pieterson.

Re Richards: he was indeed a brilliant player, he wasn't such a great captain though, and having his bowling attack meant that he didn't so much have to captain as to rotate his bowlers. Draw from that what conclusions you will about KP.

And yet again we will go into an Ashes series with a largely untested captain.

Yes, Ricky Ponting must be a very happy man right now.

Sure, but I'd rather have Vaughan (or his replacement) scoring runs against Australia and getting that middle order working again.

To those who have faith, they better get on their knees..

Sam Dingle appointed England captain
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44890000/jpg/_44890000_kppresser_pa466.jpg

better news, bhopara in for the next test.

KP's average to take massive hit.

Best day for English cricket since 2005.

KP has no attention for the small details? Have you watched him slowly and magnificently "work out" a bowler? Maybe he's not so good in the field, but there's only one way to find out.

you're referring here to trying him as a county captain first?

Yeah, that'd work, what with him being available for about three games all season. Get on with ye!

Without wishing to get ILX into trouble, has anyone else heard that this might be connected to cricket: http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/public_law/article659930.ece

I heard adulterous rumours surrounding a recently-retired England cricketer but those made him out to be the victim rather than the perpetrator.

Yes. Sounds like a real pickle, would explain a lot.

Although I heard another rumour that the cuckolder is ALSO a recently-retired England cricketer, albeit one still involved with the set-up.

Harmison back for the Oval match, with Bell at 3.

Glad that KP has been made captain, English cricket needs a kick up the jacksey

He's already talking a good game, or mouthing off a great deal, depending on your viewpoint. I'm still wavering between the two.

Massive Twenty20 match for me tonight. Physics vs. Humanities. If we win we're into the end of season play-off, if we lose is the end of our season. I will doubtless be bowling my woeful medium pace and scoring 7 before holing out at long on.

I thought you bowled chinamen?

I've gotta miss Charlton's first game of the season thanks to a match. Not that I'm complaining. Last week I went to Greenwich Park and ended up playing for a team of strangers (on a proper pitch), taking two wickets and a catch as we won a 2020 game by about 30 runs. :D

Oh, and Harmison deserves his recall significantly less than Kabir Ali does, but what can you do when someone plays for a trendy county? :P

Well remembered! Changed to medium pace this year as they've laid an artificial pitch which doesn't take turn. Turns out I'm actually OK at medium. I even got some orthodox inswing a couple of weeks ago when it was really humid.

x-post Yes, Durham, that's a trendy county all right!

Has anyone told them up there yet?

Cool, daddy-o!

http://www.northeastengland.talktalk.net/ElvetBridge.jpg

It does look nice doesn't it? Never been to Durham, want to go now!

It is nice

Who would've thought Harmison would trigger a collapse like that!

Not Louis, that's for sure

lol hi

maybe he has been bowling like this all season. let's see him keep it up. overseas.

He's bowling a helluva lot better than Broad anyway.

this is very true

Monty gets the cheat out!

What a day :)

Only problem is we can bat even worse

Century partnership coming up for Morkel and Harris?

"Panesar doesn't see it initially; sets off... eventually."

Love 'im.

KP's all-new inclusive policy of giving the kid a bowl pays off handesomely.

Broad gets a wicket!

haha morkel went off the wrong way straight to the groundsmans shed instead of the pavillion

That all-night bender is really catching up with the Safricans.