The Vagaries of Dating The Vagaries of Dating

I cannot pick a girl up at a bar. I have much more success at a party, and the most success at an intimate party. All of my long-term girlfriends were met through friends. Except my current one, who I met through Nerve personals. (God bless 'em.)

is Sex & the City really realistic at all in this respect?

For that kind of pick-up to work, you have to have more than I do -- looks, money, etc. Are you rich and chiseled? No? Then forget it. Don't watch so much TV.

i know you are being fatuous but i dont think this is true at all. somebody who is not 'attractive' is more likely to be more suspicious and closed off.

as for public space, a friend of mine just got back from paris and she says the rules are very different there - the street, public transport, the park, anywhere really, are all seen as acceptable domains for the pursuit of 'dates'

I am totally going to start prefacing all my sentences with this.

i am not!

I took the back way home a couple months ago, and drove right by the School for the Blind as hey were loading into their limos for prom. They were hot. I mean, all of them. Girls, guys... all of them looked like movie stars. I was stunned.

i am outraged - i don't come here to be insulted

''as for public space, a friend of mine just got back from paris and she says the rules are very different there - the street, public transport, the park, anywhere really, are all seen as acceptable domains for the pursuit of 'dates'''

how nice. I'm definetely in the wrong side of the channel.

As far as the tube/park/ anywhere but bars: I don't think there is a a definite ans on the question of 'can you even ask?'. I think some girls might be ok with handling a situation like that whereas could be offended if someone asked. that's the way i'd think abt it but i've never done it. But that's the kind of thing that gives the fear.

i know i was being fatuous but thats the one i was after

Dick,
There ain't much sw activity around O'Hare. I would check Mannheim between Belmont and North, there are occasional wsw's on that stretch in the early AM. Take a drive into the apartment area just north of Grand on the west side of Mannheim, I think that's where they come from. Albeit rare, but I usually see one once every couple weeks around there. Never the same one though.

I never get to Maywood, but I've heard that St. Charles Rd has some frequent bsw activity. (east of 1st Ave?).

But if I were asking for help, I'm sure this would not be helping.

however, it can be a bit creepy if people are too lecherous on the tube or bus. just smile at someone first, to see if they're even interested in making eye contact.

If N. didn't consistently use this line, he would never date.

Meaning he does date? But you've always insisted otherwise.

Like I say, fingers burnt myself, hope it's someone else mate.

in what way is victoria to stokie a heart?

i. one-way system at victoria
ii. hyde park corner roundabout
iii. one-way system at piccadilly
iv. one-way system at hackney central
v. lea bridge roundabout

i, iii and iv are all heart-shaped, more or less (well less, really, but not as less as a roundabout is)

(also i + iii + iv = 8 which is the shape of two hearts forever intertwined)

I can never quite think of what to say.

''however, it can be a bit creepy if people are too lecherous on the tube or bus. just smile at someone first, to see if they're even interested in making eye contact.''

I have never seen anyone ask or try to chat up someone on the tube or bus. has anyone?

a friend of mine got picked up in a parking lot. it was her apartment parking lot, and the guy lived there too, and they ran into each other and made small talk a couple of times before he asked her out though. that sort of scenario could be creepy though, especially at night.

500 posts by tomorrow morning on this plz.

I need a specific form of words to convey 'Am I your girlfriend or not' but not those exact words. And I need them not to scare the person off. I'm not planning to use them yet but keep them in abeyance for the right moment.

Why does it matter?

I'm not asking that facetiously, I'm wondering which part of girlfriendness you wish to ascertain your right to - and then ask that question instead.

Like, "Is this exclusive?" or "Is this short-term, or are you thinking longer?" or "Is this just sex, or is this emotional?"

OK, maybe those questions are even worse than "Am I yr girlfriend or not." But perhaps you could think which part of girlfriendness is important to you, and ask yourself if those needs are getting met or not.

take her to see '500 days of summer'. groan loudly when zooey is fending off this question.

Good question Kate. I know it's exclusive at the moment and believe I'd be told if there were any plans to change that/if it suddenly changed. I already know that due to complications (divorce, job problems, general hard time) he's not sure whether he wants an LTR right now or not. But he's also asking me whether I want children, how long I'll stay in the US, etc. - like a very upfront compatibility check.

I know really that the best thing to do if I really like him (which I do) is be patient and not ask anything, but that's hard especially as he's immersed in work and I can't see him till October (deadline). At the moment we're just doing email and occasional phone calls, which have got much shorter since the deadline thing kicked in.

xpost love this idea history mayne!

1. Drop the phrase 'my boyfriend' or 'your girlfriend' offhand into the most casual of conversation with him.
2. Check reaction.
3. PROFIT???

I think he would see straight through this.

I mean, just casually refer to him as your boyfriend, not pretend there's another mysterious boyfriend lurking somewhere.

Hrmmm. I know that I'm a cynical bitch and all, but I can't help thinking... does he really like you as much as you really like him? You can say this "ooh, issues due to divorce" and "job problems" and "general hard time" - but the thing is, there will *always* be job stress and hard times.

OK, people can go through bad periods in their life that clear up. But my suspicions are that if he's not OH YAY making time for you and being excited about the relationship when it's fresh and new, is this only going to get worse, rather than better? If you are really excited about a person, you make the time to meet them, even if it's nonstandard dating practices. If a person's priorities are not about having a relationships right now, then taht person won't make the time for that relationship.

But that goes back to the "are your needs getting met?" question to decide whether you're willing to take that chance or not.

"Do you want children" and "How long are you staying in the country" are just standard box-ticking exercises, not indicative of any specific interest in you. I've made that mistake before. It's like the relationship equivalent of asking what team you support or something. Doesn't mean anything more than that.

give him a note that says "do u want to be my boyfriend?" with YES and NO checkboxes.

MAYBE????

Seriously, there are still people in this world so stunted as to be actively scared if the person they were seeing referred to them as their "boyfriend"?!

Jesusfuck.

Yeah Kate, this is exactly my thinking which is why I'd rather knock it on the head now if I'm much more interested than he is. But then there are those that argue that blokes can be cautious, that if I play it cool things will develop, etc. Basically just trying to give it a chance rather than kill it now, but planning ahead for the awful moment when I think 'right, time to have this conversation' and can't find the right words.

if it all goes tits-up, I'm anticipating it'll be 'right person, wrong time' type conversation though I don't really believe in that...

No such thing as the right person ;-)

Good luck with all that! If he has slight but tacit commitment issues then the best thing to do would be to completely win him over, maybe by arranging a really lovely evening out and then professing your affection in as forceful a manner as your English breeding permits :D

See I think this would scare him off, but seeing as it would be a last resort anyway, why not I guess!

Obviously I mean say something like "You know what, you're a really great guy" while staring into his eyes (but only if you mean it!)

No offense, Louis, but I think, with a committmentophobe (if he is one) that would be the WORST thing you could possibly do.

I don't think ljub is painting him as a commitmentophobe, just a guy with mixed priorities. Hence, a show of genuine affection (in an exclusive affair) would probably work.

'So is this thing a thing?'

I think... with a committmentophobe you kind of have to play games with them to make them realise how awesome *you* are and make them chase you.

But I'm rubbish at that kind of thing as I can't stand game-playing. (And it goes against my natural instincts to be a chaser myself.)

But commitmentophobes really kind of rely on that idea that if they make themselves unavailable, then partners will chase them. Take away that crutch and then they have to grow up and deal. Maybe?

I make a rubbish relationship counseller, really. I've found that the only actual long term things I've had were the ones where there never *had* to be The Conversation. Where it was understood by both that it was a Thing. The need to have The Conversation is kind of a sign of insecurity - either lack of confidence in the relationship or lack of confidence in ones own self.

But this probably isn't very good advice, I've no idea.

oh I would mean it (re looking-into-eyes). I am torn between Kate's old skool thinking and the honesty-is-best-policy option - but not until all other options are exhausted. Yeah, not a commitmentophobe, mixed priorities is the thing, but maybe still need to make him chase. I'm no good at it though.

Oh NickB, that's actually pretty great. I might use it.

What I'm saying, Louis, is there is NO SUCH THING as a person with mixed priorities. If having a relationship with a person is a priority, an interested person will make the time.

A person who is constantly chasing is never going to be a priority, because you can take them for granted.

1. Drop the phrase 'my boyfriend' or 'your girlfriend' offhand into the most casual of conversation with him.
2. Check reaction.
3. PROFIT???

I would actually say this, but instead of a conversation with him, make it a phone conversation with someone else when you're with him.

"Oh I'm just out shopping with my/the BOYFRIEND SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEE."

Bear in mind, that I have never operated in that old skool way. I have always operated the "honesty is the best policy" kind of "let's talk about it and constantly establish where we are coz I am so insecure" policy. I am now a single woman in my late 30s. Your mileage may vary.

I am seriously going to shut up now.

So have I, with the same result at the same age. This is my maiden attempt at game-playing.

Well, I'm suggesting there ought to be a Moment rather than a Conversation, but it's still fine if there's a Conversation and it is brazened out. Some people prefer to have it laid out like that.

NickB's suggestion is vague and meaningful enough to work on the right level implied by its tone of voice/eye contact, good one

looool Nick11 yeah do everything suggested by a person called Nick basically

I do think it's possible to have mixed time priorities, but once the dude's turmoil has dulled, that is when this Moment/Conversation should happen, and these priorities can be rectified

Really there's not much need for actual game-playing. As far as I can see.

Oh NickB, that's actually pretty great. I might use it.

Well, obviously I take pride in my articulacy in these situations.

I've found that the only actual long term things I've had were the ones where there never *had* to be The Conversation.

maybe this was true for you but it was def not for me and for a lot of ppl i know.

'thing thing thing a thing'

I guess it was more "I didn't have to force a conversation". There was definitely some talking between the first shag and the "OK, I want you to move in with me" but it wasn't me going ARGH ARHG ARE WE DATING ARE WE INVOLVED WHAT ARE WE DOING as a constant panic.

Also, perhaps I am being harsh - things change as you get older. But I don't think there are any *absolutely* immovable priorities except for perhaps already existent children.

I don't know how long you've been seeing this guy, but the idea that someone would put the thing on hold for a month would make me go do something else for a month (not even necessarily dating someone else, just DO something else, take up macrame classes or get a DJ residency or something) and if he's still around at the end is up to him.

Yep Kate, this 'we just know' is my ideal but CAD, yes, this is why I haven't thrown in the towel yet - hope that complicated thangs can still be good thangs, especially once everyone's in their late 30s and sometimes their lives are not straightforward.

You know, this has actually been really helpful and given me a bit of perspective and even something to say (that can be said with raised eyebrows and a smile rather than a look of blind panic). Hell LJ, I am even looking forward to the Moment, however it turns out. (sorry Nick11, I am politely disregarding your suggestion though enjoying the mental picture).

Yeah this month I am mostly working and looking out for a friend who is having a really hard time, but also trying to get out and meet people a bit more.

oh re how long: since early June, but only seen him 5 or 6 times in that whole period - I was away in the UK, he thinks he's gonna get sacked if he doesn't meet this FY's deadlines, etc.

I trust there was enough chemistry to suggest that a union would Work? Conversation spilling on and on without you noticing? Genuine tenderness?

Seriously, there are still people in this world so stunted as to be actively scared if the person they were seeing referred to them as their "boyfriend"?!

I dated one last year! He told me he wasn't my boyfriend in front of his friends at the bar. I yelled at him in the street outside on the way home. Should have left right then, but I'm a sucker.

I think using words like "commitmentphobe" and "game-playing" when this guy is coming through a divorce is really unfair, btw. You can hardly blame him for being cautious.

I'd say "see where it goes but try not to put too much emotional pressure on it early on" is the way forward. If it's going to work out, it will.

Rose by any other name would not taste so sweet
You only want me with no expectations to meet

Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is meine NOYFRIEND

What's in a label, what's in a name
Why can't you say it, are you ashamed
Categorise the microgenres of life
Somewhere between a stranger and a wife

Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is meine NOYFRIEND

Friends with benefits, fuckbuddy, bitch
Booty call or scratch that itch
Boyfriend, lover, partner, date
Commonlaw wife (in certain states)

Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is nicht mein boyfriend
Das is meine NOYFRIEND

Constructive *and* helpful!

But hey, if the internet has already decreed that this dude is an emotionally stunted commitmentphobe, so be it.

I've found that the only actual long term things I've had were the ones where there never *had* to be The Conversation. Where it was understood by both that it was a Thing. The need to have The Conversation is kind of a sign of insecurity - either lack of confidence in the relationship or lack of confidence in ones own self.

But this probably isn't very good advice, I've no idea.

― Evren Kader (Masonic Boom), Friday, 11 September 2009

no - this is good advice imo. I don't really see the point in The Conversation

What I'm saying, Louis, is there is NO SUCH THING as a person with mixed priorities. If having a relationship with a person is a priority, an interested person will make the time.

Disagree here though. Sometimes I really can't decide if I want tea or beer - I know once I've had one that i'll stick with that for the evening because the other won't taste right. But beforehand I'm not sure

eh i could just as easily go the other way and say not having "the conversation" is a sign that u are not really prepared to communicate honestly and openly.

you could! differing perceptions of the same thing

I guess for me stuff is always implicit - for others not so much

it's just pers experience really, a lot if times i thought something was implicit in a relationship it turned out to be something we needed to talk about--now i feel like i know better.

But hey, if the internet has already decreed that this dude is an emotionally stunted commitmentphobe, so be it.

Not entirely sure if that has been decreed. My point was really that if "boyfriend" is what he feels like to ljubljana, then chances are that's how he sees himself as well. "Boyfriend" hardly denotes ring-on-finger-level-commitment, does it? Why would he be afraid of it?

LJ - yes, definitely chemistry. Conversation spilling on and on - check. Genuine tenderness? Check, though tender not lovey-dovey, and tempered with a LOT of caution - a lid is being kept on it. Also forgot to mention pillow talk a couple of times along the lines of 'I'm getting into this a bit quickly'.

Matt DC - he's definitely not a commitmentphobe. I do believe in such a thing as bad times. I also believe that if the thang is really, really good, it'll transcend them. But I think you have to have a lot of patience, understanding and self-belief to make that happen, and I am not full of these qualities so am trying very hard. I also believe that all this patient understanding can easily mask 'he's just not that into you'. So of course I'm veering between believing he's JNTIM and believing it's worth at least a shot at just being understanding and patient.

Did I mention we met on OKC? I don't think either of us expected to meet anyone we liked so much so quickly on there. We were both anticipating more a strung-out series of 'social' dates, make new friends, hope something works out eventually.

I think it goes...

Patient waiting phase till mid-October (to allow for post-deadline recovery phase, sleeping, catching up with friends etc.)
Catching up phase till mid-November, hoping that things get clearer
Moment!
Moment didn't get you anywhere? Conversation! (on a different occasion)
Key part: *accept whatever happens from there and don't whinge* (except on here)

Jesus, I'm bad at living with uncertainty.

wait, so this guy is just getting out of a serious relationship? I doubt he's a commitment-phobe since he was married. He probably wants some time and space to figure things out before jumping into another serious relationship ...

He was married, she left over two years ago, but it was a drawn-out split in a number of ways. Actual decree nisi came through a week or so before I met him.

I am going away for the w/end now but please carry on without me and feel free to amend my timeline above :-)

I do have to say that my "commitmentophobe" comments were prefaced with an "IF"

Mainly in defense against those people who were trying to say that there don't exist guys who will try and say all "you're not my GIRLFRIEND" to the person they are shagging. Because it's certainly happened to me.

Or perhaps a healthy dose of projection as I totally am a commitmentophobe through and through and I'll say all "bad time..." and all that, but the truth is, there is never going to be a "good" time again.

i hooked up with this girl and we added each other on facebook. i check out her photos and i find out a few years back she used to be rather chubby. (which for me is cool, you know max r is like sir-mixalot in that respect) no big deal. then i log on the next day and 2 pages of her late-teens chubster pics have vanished... i think this is a good sign, you know how paranoid girls are about weight. i feel like feedin her up, she looked good!

classy

ok question answered, and I didn't even have to ask it :-( At least he manned up and told me

Told you what? What happened?

Just Not That Into Me. Fin.

Oh, I'm so sorry. This is rubbish, but at least you know, and you can stop WONDERING which is the killing part.

Yeah, that's true. At the moment though I just want to stay in bed and cry for three days. Falling hard for people is my speciality. I don't do it often but when I do it, I'm thorough.

Oh god, I know that feeling. Give yourself a couple of days, allow yourself to grieve - make yourself sad mixtapes and eat ice cream and watch movies that make you OK to bawl like a child. Get it out of your system. (So long as you make sure you know when to come out of it.)

yep I think you're right. Got a friend who is *actually* grieving right now though and trying to support her so dunno how that's going to go this weekend, I'll have to leave her to her parents I think.

off to drag myself to work now I think

Oh no, the wrong sort of thing :(

Sorry to hear that ljub, hope you get through the next few days okay.

Thanks, and I was still gonna use your line if this hadn't happened.

1. Drop the phrase 'my boyfriend' or 'your girlfriend' offhand into the most casual of conversation with him.

Not passive aggressive imo. Wouldn't have worked on my guy but might have worked on some

aww :( well trite as it is, better luck next time! i mean, obviously something will happen in the heretofore, but i hope it's with someone you share an intimate connection with

i had a date tonight! it was fun. we got on, and will probably do dinner and drinks again at some stage...life and its options

thanks lj!

drunk and in 'f**k you' stage, hoorah, will not last but enjoying it for now.

*I used Nick's line retrospectively!!* To explain what I was thinking over the last month.

ok ilx, i said yes to a date with someone i'm probably not interested in (but figured give him a chance and maybe my mind will change, the reason i'm always single is that i always say no unless i'm really into the person already)...is this a terrible thing to do? if at the end of said date i figure out that i'm not, what do i say?

Well, it depends how you view the experience. If you think of it as a practice date, where you just get used to the idea of dating and learning how to do it, then I think it's fine. It's just trouble lies ahead when you get to the point where all you ever go on is practice dates with guys you're not that into and start to lose faith in the whole process.

I'm not so much worried about it from my side, I just don't want to be a bitch if it turns out he's interested and I'm not, especially as he's a friend of some of my friends. Advice?

oh this is not a bad thing! come saturday i'm going on a second date with a girl i'm not at all head over heels with, although she is very friendly and talkative. that said atm dating is about all i have time for, so i'm able to go on these chilled dates without feeling any pressure to force an issue. treat your own one like this and it'll be fine :) maybe better than fine!

this makes sense. i figure that is how it should be, that is how casual dating works, right? the problem is just that most of my circle tends to date friends, so it escalates immediately to "relationship," and i'm not sure how to not have that happen.

Don't drink too much - that's the easiest way to stop things from escalating into full-blown "relationship" if you know what I mean.

I know this problem. I'm convinced I know straight away if I'm interested in someone or not, which means if I don't think I want to date them, it means I don't. But of course I could be missing out on a lot by not trying. And it means that if I date someone I'm already taking it very very very seriously, even if I don't tell the person that.

Yeah I am generally the same! I decided to break the mold this time on grounds that I probably do miss out on a lot by not trying, and now I'm really nervous because frankly, we probably know ourselves best. (And of course I'm projecting my own psychology onto him, because if I asked someone out it would be because I really liked them, even though I don't know enough about this guy to assume that.)

Okay date is in an hour! What do I do/say at the end if I'm not interested in another one? (i ask this as a worst case scenario because i think i know what to do in all other scenarios, haha)

"Good luck with that!"

'it's been real, cowboy, but i'm takin' the low road'

"all signs point to negative poppage"

'i wanted Kid A, you were only MPP'

please let us not let the pitchfork decade poll infect every thread on ilx!

'i wanted an MP, you were only a kid'

it's like some zombie virus.

totally

Him: 'shall we do this again sometime?'
You: 'yyyeeeeeeehhhhhhh...'

Don't contact him. If he contacts you, say you would love to hang out again (pause) just as friends, if that's ok?

yeah...that's pretty much how it went down. *sigh* thanks for listening.

But next time it might go down differently. But yeah, dates like that feel all wrong to me too.

Us clueless guys never being able to interpret whether the woman wants to go out again. Some women are honest and just say 'no' or 'yes'; that's better than the "yeahhhh, maybe, contact me (but then later ignoring e-mails or calls).

Being a divorced 40-something parent and dating is no fun. Trying to schedule dates with other divorced parents is always difficult because your non-parenting nights never seem to match up. Never married 40-somethings either want to have kids, or have schedules that somehow manage to be even busier than those of a parent. I had been seeing someone for years but that fizzled out and now I'm in the wonderful world of internet dating. Ugh.

I know this problem. I'm convinced I know straight away if I'm interested in someone or not, which means if I don't think I want to date them, it means I don't. But of course I could be missing out on a lot by not trying. And it means that if I date someone I'm already taking it very very very seriously, even if I don't tell the person that.

― ljubljana, Tuesday, October 6, 2009 8:03 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wow this is crazy

sorry that sounds mean.

which part do you think is crazy? there's a few different statements there

well, if i only dated ppl i was already into, i would be dating a hell of a lot less often & be meeting v. few interesting people, be many friends shorter & two relationships shorter than i am now.

i mean i guess the line could be at varying places -- its not like im dating ppl im not attracted to or something -- but part of the fun/risk of dating is getting to know people

i don't really understand the concern about rejecting someone ... you're afraid you'll end up in a relationship you dont want to be in? "oops!" you can say no & make an excuse at basically any point on the ride, would much rather do that than miss out on someone who is potentially really cool (or more likely, at least a decent person to know).

I kind of agree w ljub (maybe I'd use fewer verys), even if you or some person on the internet thinks it's crazy (OH NOES). But then, that's part of why it's easier just to not date.

Hanging out w people asking all the "right" questions about them and fielding their "right" questions about you while you sort of grope around blindly for what kind of person the other person is without promising anything that you aren't sure you mean just seems like a shit-ton of work and completely tedious -- esp if you're not attracted to them originally, like if you thought you should give that person a chance in case they surprise you or something. So pretty much the really small number of people I would be excited about meeting up with, I'm already say 85% sure I'm interested in.

xp The last time I told a guy on a date (a blind internet date, no less!) that I didn't think we should see each other romantically, he cried and we both had to get up and leave right away.

xp The last time I told a guy on a date (a blind internet date, no less!) that I didn't think we should see each other romantically, he cried and we both had to get up and leave right away.

― that stupid-ass cannibal pen-pal of yours (Laurel), Thursday, October 8, 2009 6:03 PM (17 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

holy crap

He was really really interesting but not attractive to me at all. I would have worked on some kind of creative project with him, he did cool music 'n stuff, but...no datey.

all apologies, another topic emerges:

I'm thinking about the 19 (or 18?) year old girl I have a half crush on because I might go to the place she works tonight for beer (not thinking of stalking her or anything creepy). Anyways someone up thread said that I probably wouldn't share many favorite interests (probably true). But isn't that true with just about everybody you date? Cept maybe if you meet someone at the concert for your favorite band.

So I don't even know what I could talk about even if I wanted to try to jump in the relationship world.

what are good conversations topics? seriously

I told a girl a terrible poem I made up on a date once. granted it was down hill to begin with.

discuss flushing toilets with one's feet

erotic hats can't fail to win her favour.

reborns

wanna hear the poem?

yes

uhh the internet deleted my poems. they were on an older version of poetry.com apparently

plz find

also, submit them to ilx in poll form

I kind of agree w ljub (maybe I'd use fewer verys), even if you or some person on the internet thinks it's crazy (OH NOES). But then, that's part of why it's easier just to not date.

Hanging out w people asking all the "right" questions about them and fielding their "right" questions about you while you sort of grope around blindly for what kind of person the other person is without promising anything that you aren't sure you mean just seems like a shit-ton of work and completely tedious -- esp if you're not attracted to them originally, like if you thought you should give that person a chance in case they surprise you or something. So pretty much the really small number of people I would be excited about meeting up with, I'm already say 85% sure I'm interested in.

xp The last time I told a guy on a date (a blind internet date, no less!) that I didn't think we should see each other romantically, he cried and we both had to get up and leave right away.

― that stupid-ass cannibal pen-pal of yours (Laurel), Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:03 PM (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ok i definitely dont mean "go out with people you're not attracted to" -- thats dumb. but i thought she meant, like, ppl that she already was somewhat interested in beyond that

Maybe that line you were talking about is just set at a higher point of "interested".

But even if you might like them, dating is a giant bore? Maybe you have to like the idea of getting to know people.

like if you thought you should give that person a chance in case they surprise you or something. So pretty much the really small number of people I would be excited about meeting up with, I'm already say 85% sure I'm interested in.

^^^ this.

deej, you're right that I could make an excuse at any time and get out. But I know within 5 minutes of meeting someone whether I'm potentially interested in them romantically. That sounds like I think it's a good thing, but I don't - I'd rather have the nice potential of falling for them later, after 10 or 20 dates! It's just the way I am... it certainly does restrict the number of relationships I have. Within 2-3 dates I'm generally head over heels for them or know I won't ever be. Maybe I could change this with effort! - but something tells me I just know: yes or no. And of course it's usually no, since people don't go around falling for other people all over the place. It'd be chaos.

I like the idea of getting to know people, but I hate the idea of leading them on when I know it's 'no'... I think internet dating is good for me for that reason - I can't second-guess too much whether I like them romantically or not till I get there.

Ljubjana I've always been exactly the same way so you're def not alone in that.

It is kind of a relief that you and Laurel are the same way. I was starting to think I was just wired up funny.

Meanwhile, my ex, if you can call him that, well, my ex-person-I-was-seeing, has sent me a novel that he says reminds him of me. I *never* read this kind of novel (kinda chick-histo-lit: The Gurnsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society). Just the title screams 'NO' to me. He sent a nice card with it though. Also two Weakerthans CD copies that I told him I did not want.

er, Guernsey.

Yeah no I totally relate to everything you wrote. It's also why I was never really into casual dating. I just never saw the point of dating someone I wasn't into and the ppl I was into I wanted more than just a casual thing with.

Thing is, getting to know someone can turn a "maybe" into a "yes" but I don't think it can ever turn a "nope, never" into a yes. (Except with the magical addition of alcohol which can turn Yog-Sothoth into a yes on a bad day)

I'm inclined to think alcohol solves every problem. Except the one I'm in right now, Ow

I do love alcohol. But to me, dating is the opposite of fun. What's FUN is when hit that point where both people are interested to some degree, and then you start the tacit negotiations and one-ups-manship about how things are going to go. But that's useless until there's an actual investment -- otherwise you're not putting anything on the table.

I wouldn't know, I have never had a girlfriend :(

Where did this myth come from that dating was supposed to be FUN? Honestly, I believe that first dates are used as a form of torture on political prisoners.

Dating was branded 'fun' when people realized there's a good deal of money in it. So that must have been ages ago.

dating is fun if you like both people involved

^sounds like a threesome date

What a disaster for the self-depreciative

xp

Even back in the long lost days when people I was actually attracted to might express interest in dating me, I still hated dating. Hated the nerves, hated the not knowing, hated the kind of fluttering sick to your stomach feeling. It's kind of like it was almost better when you didn't liiiike the person so you could just concentrate on getting drunk and enjoying the evening rather than worrying about whether you were coming across a total arse in front of someone you were really attracted to.

Hated the nerves, hated the not knowing, hated the kind of fluttering sick to your stomach feeling

this is the fun part

You pest.

Yeah, okay, dating nerves are a GOOD kind of nervous, compared to all the things that could actually be wrong. But you should probably actually like the other person first, before you get nervous about them. Up til then, it's really not worth your stressing about -- but it's sooo tempting to start stressing long before then.

uh why date someone you don't know you like to begin with though?

What's FUN is when hit that point where both people are interested to some degree, and then you start the tacit negotiations and one-ups-manship about how things are going to go. .

― that stupid-ass cannibal pen-pal of yours (Laurel), Friday, 9 October 2009 13:16

ooof
not fun

dating is so mindbogglingly complicated

i've had 2 sorts of dating nerves - nerves because i don't like the other person that much (in which case, perhaps a bad idea to go out with them at all, but sometimes it's hard to mae up your mind on the spot), and nerves because i really like them - and also a complete lack of any anxiety because i really don't care either way! the last is the only time dating's actually been FUN just because i had so little invested in it, but it's rare (at least for me) to like someone enough to go out with them repeatedly but not enough to worry about them.

xp to darra: I don't, but deej said "well, if i only dated ppl i was already into, i would be dating a hell of a lot less often & be meeting v. few interesting people, be many friends shorter & two relationships shorter than i am now."

And then Kate later observed "It's kind of like it was almost better when you didn't liiiike the person so you could just concentrate on getting drunk and enjoying the evening rather than worrying about whether you were coming across a total arse in front of someone you were really attracted to."

Which made me think that when I've gotten really nervous about dates, it was 100% concern for being attractive enough for the other person, and not at all about whether they would be attractive to me (or good for me). Which is the wrong time to be putting all kinds of expectations on the stupid thing -- and yet we do!

oh, i think you meant liiiike like, i was just talking about like.

if you get me.

Yeah, isn't that just life, though? Worry all the time "will I please this man, how do I please this man" etc. etc. and never actually think that whether they're actually gonna be pleasing us.

uh why date someone you don't know you like to begin with though? -darraghmac
are you asking why date someone from just knowing their internet dating profile basically?

dating is so mindbogglingly complicated
maybe it's okay to advocate for beer?

xpost - haha, i don't do that!

(....perhaps this is a factor in why i am usually single though!)

I used to have a rule that required drinking to take place on at least the first two dates; sobriety and/or daytime plans not allowed until at least #3. Usually didn't get to #3, though, for a variety of reasons.

"used to" - not a good rule?

i am a fan of daytime plans for first dates, actually, they feel lower pressure to me. harder to schedule though.

Boy is this thread reminding me how very thankful I am to be out of the "dating" thing.

I kind of feel exactly the same way but for completely the opposite reason.

dating is so mindbogglingly complicated
maybe it's okay to advocate for beer?

― I'm the best maaaayne, I did it (CaptainLorax), Friday, 9 October 2009 14:56 (3 minutes ago) Bookma

in my case, beery dates usually result in bad beery seksu

but in line with the cliche, i actually do like people better when drinking, and this is BAD! because eventually you'll spend time with them sober and be like "what was i thinking?"

Yeah, it's way too easy to go into one of those drunken first dates with someone you don't actually like, get slaughtered and your desperation to prove that you can still get laid kind of overrides any sort of caution.

And the dude never calls you again because your putting out on the first date means you were easy, so then you end up feeling rejected by him when really you should have rejected him out of hand - which you would have done had you been sober.

(not that that has EVER happened to me, mind you, oh no, never ever)

...but hey, at least you got laid. ;-)

Maria, "used to" = I haven't been on a date in over a year, and before that little interlude, it was probably another 2-3 years.

Yeah, it's way too easy to go into one of those drunken first dates with someone you don't actually like, get slaughtered and your desperation to prove that you can still get laid you are desirable to men and therefore have value kind of overrides any sort of caution.

And the dude never calls you again because your putting out on the first date means you were easy people with nothing but "desirability" going for them are really boring, so then you end up feeling rejected by him when really you should have rejected him out of hand - which you would have done had you been sober.

Did you never have the desire to JUST. GET. LAID. ?

Especially while very drunk? That you give up caring about relationships and soul mates and dating and all that crap, and you really just want to be naked and holding someone?

And it's not always entirely about "proving your value" by being desired, sometimes it's just that god damned skin hunger?

i think that depends on whether you're feeling more lonely or horny when you start drinking, tbh. either way it's not really something i'm comfortable with but i very much understand the urge.

Nope, I'm great at squashing that -- too much trouble in the long run, what with the awkwardness the next day & having to explain to people that you're just friends, and all that stuff. I mean, does it make me crazy? Totally. But I have an excellent track record in hardly ever acting on it (whether that is actually "excellent" is still TBD).

Hrmm. Back when I still used to "date" the only times I would be bothered with trying to meet people/going on dates would be when I was feeling lonely and/or horny so there might be something to that.

But honestly, dating is such hard work I can't imagine any other reason for wanting to do it.

Maybe you have to like the idea of getting to know people.

― that stupid-ass cannibal pen-pal of yours (Laurel), Thursday, October 8, 2009 5:46 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah this is pretty key.

for myself, if i meet someone who's into to me, i definitely don't know if i want to pursue anything with them after the first five minutes or the first date. i think i get overly excited that a date went well at all, and it takes a few days (max of 2 weeks) to see if i get annoyed with them or if it might go somewhere.

kate - part of the motivation is just not having very many single friends! but i try to remind myself not to get in the mindset of looking for a warm body to even up the numbers, 'cause that is just not nice.

Jordan, when I was dating a lot, I'd give everyone the benefit of the doubt and be encouraging and excited about meeting them...but this only seemed to make boys think I was "into" them, as opposed to just, y'know, willing to get to know them. After a while, I got the feeling they thought the pursuit was over and lost interest from that point -- sometimes even after many weeks of flirting & correspondence leading up to the date (lol internet dating).

It's possible that I'm just boring and ugly, but somehow I doubt that was the determining factor. It definitely seemed like being nice to guys made them think they had it in the bag, and then they went off to flirt with someone else instead.

I told a friend last night that I sort of have a crush on a girl we kinda know who is 7ish years younger than me (the girl I mentioned up thread). He said something like "if she wasn't 11ish years younger than me I would date her". He said I'm in the clear. However he did bring up a mistake I made when I first met her. She told me her name and I said "I don't mean to be rude but I used to have a dog with that name (lol) but she was named after a human". Anyways that mistake was probably bigger than I previously thought since my friend did bring it up to me like it was worse than I thought.

However, if I did ever date this girl I would feel confident because I already know I can be brutally honest about some things without really upsetting her (she didn't get angry when I said she shared the same name as my previous dog - then again I wasn't trying to date her). She does seem like a really kind person who doesn't get upset easily.

The other reason why I would feel confident if I dated her is because I am older than her.

The only times I have been confident to the point where I can say anything on a date have been dates with girls in which I end up deciding that I'm just not that interested in them. It's great to be able to say anything on a date, it's great to have confidence, it's great to not be 100% focused on having to impress... but I imagine that being overly-casual and confident could actually set off the wrong signals (like I'm not that interested in you signal) which just goes to show how dating can be mind-boggling complicated. There was times when I would have loved to appear more casual and confident on a date. I'm glad I addressed this issue because now I know I probably shouldn't be overly confident the next time I go dating. However, I'll still keep things pretty casual.

so that's my vagarie and this time it's not in the form of a question

------------------------------ - - -

maybe if a girl is overly nice (and some other things) she may accidentally fall into the category of being boring... which may make her think she that she is plain/ugly.

I'm gonna go ahead and say that I probably wouldn't be dating someone in the first place if I thought she looked really plain or ugly so what you look like shouldn't really be a worry during a series of dates.

I'm reminded of a king creosote lyric from a great song I heard yesterday:

Saffy Nool
You're growing old
You're growing tense
I was past 35 before my face made much sense
It means nothing
It means nothing

youtube.. unfortunately it's only okay sound quality for what is really a great song

Ummm girls if you are worried that you are ugly and that is why you haven't been dating lately just remember that ugly is a lot rarer than you think. Also there are people out there that love any type of girl (I have an old post somewhere about girls that look like short_hair_glasses_nerdchick.gif)

how the fuck are you still posting and LJ is on his like 3rd suggest ban

Slow down, Lorax, you're losing your touch...maybe it's the layer of cotton terrycloth between you and your work?

I was trying to reply to It's possible that I'm just boring and ugly, but somehow I doubt that was the determining factor. and I ended up having a lot of explaining to do

"oh you know, my apologies for whatever, you see I'm learning to control myself better" - Grifters - 'My Apology'
I has a present for you laurel (I hope you are a girl)
http://rlv.zcache.com/cute_girls_name_laurel_t_shirt-p235201655355656257ykp9_400.jpg

Is this possible? He said he likes the Grateful Dead, so I probably shouldn't overestimate him in any other regard? Forgive me, I don't keep track of who suspects whom of being a sock these days.

I am not a sock but I have seen a sock defend some good socks in my time

oh man I got drunk last night and danced with two nerdy girls and I had no intentions of getting them in the sack
I feel both ashamed and happy when I ask a girl what her name is and she is like "I told you before". She remembers me :p

You feel "happy" that a girl thinks you're kind of douche for not remembering her name?

No that's the part I'm ashamed of. I'm happy that she probably remembered my name (and no, I don't think she remembered it because I was a douche)

It just so happens that I am very polite around the ladies. I asked permission to read her shirt because I didnt want it to look like I was staring at her boobs

...and yet another "dating" thread is gonna have 200 new answers and be locked by tomorrow morning because of Lorax and Loraxbaiters. Great.

I wish there were a way to "suggest ban from thread"...

xp How do you not get what my friend Yana calls "five across the lips" every time you leave the house? Amazing.

dnftt

Did you never have the desire to JUST. GET. LAID. ?

Especially while very drunk? That you give up caring about relationships and soul mates and dating and all that crap, and you really just want to be naked and holding someone?

And it's not always entirely about "proving your value" by being desired, sometimes it's just that god damned skin hunger?

to answer the last non-rhetorical question posed in this thread. yes.

"what's your name?" "i already told you" conversations crack me up, because i've been on both sides. really bad if they happen the next day though, because at that point it's not funny anymore.

unenthusiastic before today's encounter, less enthusiastic afterward. which is a shame, because she's a really sweet girl, bright, very cute and, for whatever reason, at least a bit into me. not following up on this because she's "too nice" feels really shitty but it's pretty much all i've got at the moment. maybe it's more complicated than that and i'm just not smart enough to figure myself out.

where are all the assertive, fesity ilx-type girls irl pls?

(not meant to sound sleazy t/w ilx's female contingent btw)

she might just be being nice to begin with - because it's more socially acceptable - she could be a total domineering bitch, and you would totally be missing out.

Never go on first impressions. People think I am pretty feisty and assertive (in real life) but underneath that is one insecure woman. Like Sarahel says, she may appear nice, but there's bound to be more. :-)

My friend Maria - who is really smart and perceptive about people, and has a really good perspective on things - said, that the first three months - people are trying to put forward the best impression of themselves, and that after that is when you get to really know them.

i dunno, i think first impressions are more accurate than not. we know more by instinct than we recognize. if you aren't into her now it is not right to take up her time while you figure out if you might be months from now. because you probably won't.

well, yeah - if the first impression isn't all that great - after the "cracks" show a few months in, you'll probably be less interested.

three months? really? That sounds exhausting.

most of my relationships have collapsed around the three month mark so there must be something to that theory but you have to at least want to be there that long, right? where does instinct fall into all of this?

xxxpost (pre-goole)

by the three month mark the cracks are beginning to show - some people can hold out longer than others.

My instincts are totally dulled - I'm just getting out of an 11 year relationship - I have no fucking clue.

i dunno, i think first impressions are more accurate than not. we know more by instinct than we recognize. if you aren't into her now it is not right to take up her time while you figure out if you might be months from now. because you probably won't.

No. You always try to adjust "wrong" signals (that do not correspond with your first impression). Once you have set an impression, you're bound to stick to that, instead of re-evaluating your impression to signals that do not correspond with it. Of course if your first impression is a rather negative one, you won't flip to the other side all that easily.

Sarahel, most splits are around the ten year mark. I read this. Since knowing this, I tend to look for the engraving for any wedding bands we buy. Of course not when the person (selling his ring for scrap gold) is in front of me. hah. Can you just picture it? "OH MAN YOU ARE TOTALLY A CLICHE!" Once I bought a wedding band... when checking I suddenly burst out: "He isn't married yet!" Apparently they had a fight. A few days later they asked if they could buy it again cause they were going through with the marriage anyway. LOL

Here we go again, with a much more promising start and a bit less head-over-heelsness and just lots of nice warm feelings instead, and the whole business *still* sets my cortisol levels to 'stun'. I really need to learn to relax and enjoy this and stop over-analysing.

amazingly enough, I am pretty much at this^^^^^^^^^^^ stage myself w/ someone

That's great! I am not amazed, you seem like someone who would get to that place with someone else.

that place does include levels of the whole business *still* sets my cortisol levels to 'stun'. I really need to learn to relax and enjoy this and stop over-analysing, let's be clear here

don't want to sicken anyone, but still kinda feel like this after ~5 years tbh

I was going to say, "~19 years tbh"

Bleurgh...

I agree hah.

I had a steady partner from 2003-2007 and then another from 2007 to just recently, I havent HAD to think about dating in almost 8 years.

The thought makes me ill. Sure, the first bit is fun. But then they find out what I'm actually like and it all goes down hill.

that's....not really the spirit tbh.

enjoy having control of the tv for a little while, it's the kind of thing i find myself fantasising over these days

Well it will be nice not having to listen to Autechre every second day :/

Ha! My thang is with a fan of industrial and electronica and electroclash. He has already spun me many of his faves even though I have told him I like Belle and Sebastian.

i was trying to imagine what would sit in between those two poles and my brain thought of postal service and i made myself sad

'S ok, I also like some Dark Wave stuff, except I never knew what it was called. That makes everything ok apparently.

Wow, I read the whole thread up to 7 months ago, and I can't stay awake. Interesting stuff. I discovered that I have a great skill for crafting the post-1st-date "I didn't feel the connection I'm looking for" email that seems to be fail-proof.

NB: I think it is not OK at all to break up over email, so I have only used this post-1st-date (or 2nd). Which seems to be my max anyway.

But yeh, I'm good at being a rejector! (But DAMNNNNN I'm bad at being rejected.)

But I know within 5 minutes of meeting someone whether I'm potentially interested in them romantically.

Yep. Though I keep an open mind and sometimes things go better than expected, but the first impression is pretty reliable for me.

With this one, it was this slower burn thing. I am liking that a lot more than 'BAM you are wonderful but I don't actually know you at all'

yeah I am thinking that the latter is what I keep doing incl. in this instance but it's ok I'll pull back and be in her band or something maybe

but yeah I am probably going to quit OKCupid because that BAM etc thing is what that website does

I try to comprehend how it is possible to date without wondering from the very first meeting, "What is this? Where are we going?" It's like a fish imagining something other than life in the water. What is the point of dating otherwise? And what do you think instead of those questions??

Maybe i'm just crazy but shouldn't the initial questions be "Who are you?" and "Do we get along?"

I'm exaggerating, of course, but as we sort of touched on earlier, "do we get along?" is pretty well settled in the first few minutes.

Seriously feel like I'll never have a meaningful relationship ever again. It's so depressing, and can't even explain it, just suddenly realised how little faith I have. I don't even feel down on myself for any specific reason, just feel down that despite things going well in life and me getting along easily with people I can't even imagine meeting someone. Hurts if I think about it.

Sorry slight derail but not as downer as it may sound.

I've been feeling like that since R left me, too. Mainly because I've not been single in a long time and I'm getting a little older (I know I dont look it, but if I meet a guy who likes me in their 20s what am I meant to say? "oh btw I'm actually 39, yeah lol sorry... uh ok bye").

Bums me out a bit. So for now I'm just gonna have mindless crushes and pretend nothing's wrong :/

Jesse can you post that letter in handy fill-in-the-blanks style plz? I have a habit of getting in a date or two too deep with people I like and think are cool but, y'know...

trayce, um...ljubljana is more or less a similar age to you and she doesn't really seem to care, just rolls w/ it. sounds blase but don't give up hope!!

ronan...i dunno what to say really. it's not a fear i share although i DO realise it'll have to be someone freakin' special for it to really work. probably this is the case with you too? a nice woman will sweep you off your feet when you least expect it. at least keep going :)

I do roll with the OKC dating, but for me that's easier than meeting someone IRL by far. Maybe because I'm a crap flirt. Trayce gets actual IRL approaches, which I would prefer! As for age, I'm 38 and my okc prefs are set to 35-45. But clearly, younger is not a bad thing. I am just a fusty oldie at heart.

Also, I have spent much more time single than in a relationship. I think it's harder coming out of something serious.

Oh I get approaches but theyre quite often from friends who are erm.. how can I put this politely... well there's a reason why theyre 45 and perpetually single?

And that is not at all what I'm looking for (creepy roleplayers, computer nerds and old goths, I'm looking at YOU).

Ronan, I think you said somewhere upthread that you were having one of those 'how can anyone know me if I don't know myself' times. I read this at the time and it resonated like a fucking great gong, about a week before I met someone who is probably the most similar-thinking person to me I've ever dated. (Note to self: this does not mean you can get over-excited or that it will work out).

Local Garda - I think I understand exactly how you feel. The last 2 or 3 months my attitude has changed a lot, but for almost every day since mid- 2002 I felt like there was no hope for possibly ever finding someone for even a half-assed relationship, much less something meaningful and maybe satisfying. It wasn't even that I was despairing - I just kind of knew that was reality.

In the past few months I have felt differently and I have gone on a few dates, on which I have adopted a different - hopefully better - perspective.

rogermexico, are you saying that you just keep seeing the person out of inertia?

not at all! more that i don't take the trouble to separate "i think you're really neat and fun to hang out with" from "i think we should be fooling around now" until date three or so, and I'm hoping for the form letter because I hate hate hate the "so you are awesome but it's not making an audible click is it?" conversation. even if it leaves everyone with plenty of opportunities to save face it makes me feel worse than having someone break things off with me.

i've had a string of these lately -- perfectly excellent people who should have much better things to do with their time than waste it on me, whose attention i should be glad to have, etc etc -- and it's just been a bit depressing. so the form letter would be helpful but even more so would be the ability to see it coming before the second date.

Etiquette question.

Seen this bloke 5 times. I'm seriously interested, I think he is too. (trying not to jinx this here...)

Saw him last on Sunday. He is currently away and gets back Friday, late. By then I'll have friends staying. They're here a week. Then I go away till the following Monday - so, two-week hiatus.

At this very delicate stage, do I invite him out with me and my visiting friends? (Friends are a couple - they are relaxed friendly people). It seems really presumptious about how things are going for me to ask him to join us one night, but maybe I'm just being silly? Instinct is not to ask.

Good lord, of course ask him along with your friends! Why wouldnt you?

ask him imo

what yes of course god

imo bringing someone into yr circle of friends is a really nice way of saying "hey I like and trust you here's my mates btw lets all hang".

But thats just me.

Meanwhile I have decided I will only date people I've gotten to know over reasonable periods of time IRL. Screw this online dating lark. RIP the OKCupid thread; ljub's about to get w/ The One, I'm retiring from active service and Lorax will just have to lump it

You are quitting OKC because of the 'Bam' factor? or other reasons too?

xposts oooh really?! I am liking this advice!

The reason I was worried about asking was sending an 'I want this to be a thing' signal too early. But I guess it's not really too early.

It isn't. I'm not quitting, just scaling my profile right back and making it clear I don't want to meet people from there. But the 'BAM' factor I've actually quoted in my profile, such was your glorious instance of pealing OTM

i wouldn't meet anyone from an internet dating site that would have me as a member etc

I hate hate hate the "so you are awesome but it's not making an audible click is it?" conversation. even if it leaves everyone with plenty of opportunities to save face it makes me feel worse than having someone break things off with me.

I used to, too, so I either kept on seeing the person or - far, far more commonly - passively cut things off by not being available for future dates or by ignoring calls. These were terrible things to do because I know they were offensive and hurtful to the other person (I've been on the receiving end of this sort behavior since then) and because I felt terrible about myself for doing it.

I thought back, and a couple times a guy has told me, "I didn't feel a romantic connection (or chemistry, or whatever)" and in those instances, I was like, OK, cool. Then I put two and two together and realized that I, too could take this route!

Of the guys I've said this to, a couple are still friends, and one is a fuck-buddy. Only one got weird about it, saying "You seemed like a jerk anyway." The others responded that they agreed.

It just feels like doing the right and mature thing to be straightforward like this and others seem to appreciate it. It's like I learned a new magic trick!

This this this! I really can't stand cut 'n run types. The sudden stopping of calls, emails, the lack of enthusiasm when you do see them. I've had male friends outright admit "I just stopped talking to her and hoped she'd get the hint".

THAT IS JUST UNACCEPTABLY, HORRIBLY CUNTISH. MAN UP YOU LOT.

imo it's definitely the right thing to do, and I do it, and as you say results are typically positive. I just hate it and want your form letter ;-)

This is going to sound disgustingly earnest, but if you want a template for the good "no chemistry" letter, just write from the heart. Say what you mean.

Blurgh. While I really feel like the "form letter" is something I actually understand right now and I want to talk about it b/c it's part of a huge, uh, breakthrough(?) for me, I am about to be maudlin and gross. My boss' dog died today - this dog came in every single day and I've known her for 3 years and walked her and dog-sat her very often. I'm unable to sleep, despite I had 2 Tecates. :(

On a positive note, I went to the Thr3adl3ss retail store today and talked to a really cute guy who totally gives me the eye when I go in there, and I got his number. I'm proud of myself, and also amused/appalled at how fucking shy, silly, and goofy I get sometimes.

thanks for the advice guys...I guess the thing is I feel like I could fuck up any potentially good relationship before it starts, and when someone 100 per cent likes me and I know I'm in control I end it at that point because I find it boring. After a while it starts to feel like your "type" is people who aren't attracted to you.

Then you think maybe that means you actually don't want a relationship.

And yeah i'm sort of unsure of which person I would be in one. I live a strange life in that I feel like at work I am one of the most enthusiastic and positive people in a really positive environment. At home sort of the opposite.

What I find weird is when you start to question whether your personality is one that is conducive to relationships. Like for all I know how I behave or who I am could be the problem, despite the fact I feel confident and feel like I can get to know people well...I guess just have to keep ploughing on regardless!

After a while it starts to feel like your "type" is people who aren't attracted to you.

Totally. (Though for a while this was actually true - when I was after straight men....)

Hmm.

Dating, post-divorce. With kids. (I mean, when you have kids. Not that the kids would come on dates. Though that could be kind of funny. "Oh, hi, I brought the boys. Hope you don't mind. Would you hold this diaper bag for a minute?") I've actually already had a very nice dating experience, after my ex and I separated but before the divorce was final. It was a sort of happenstance thing, someone I kept running into and then we started going out some, and it was good in all kinds of ways. Apart from her being generally awesome, it was nice to have that first post-trauma experience. The "rebound," I guess. After a few months it reached a sort of natural end, it was hardly the time to be starting up a real relationship. And in that case, kids weren't an issue, because she had them, too.

But so now I'm sort of thinking about it more, I don't know, actively. Pondering the online options -- I have friends who have done that and some good and some bad experiences, I actually created some profiles on some of the sites but then turned them off immediately because, I don't know, it weirded me out a little to have myself out there like that. It's not like there's anyone I know who I want to ask out. One thing I'm thinking is I need to hang out at some different places than I usually do if I want to meet people other than all the same people I always see. But I'm wondering how much of an issue the whole divorced-dad-with-small-children thing will be. I guess it would just depend on the person. It's not like there's anything I can do about it, that's my life, so anyone who I got involved with would have to be okay with it. I'm definitely not looking for a replacement-mom or anything. My kids have a great mother, they don't need another one. I think I'd be very cautious about even introducing anyone to the kids until things seemed somewhat serious, or at least potentially serious. I don't want to be the divorced dad who has different people tromping in out of the kids' lives all the time.

And hell, I don't even know what I want at this point in my life, relationship-wise. I like company, somebody to do things with and be close to. But, I mean, I've been married (twice), had kids, I don't feel any particular pressure to, like, get married or to have any particular kind of relationship. I don't necessarily need someone to come home to, I live on my own pretty well. But, you know, if I met someone who wanted to have kids of their own, and do the whole nuclear-family deal, I mean, it's not anathema to me either. Part of the confusion is just my age. If I consider my dating pool to be, I don't know, people 6 or 7 years in either direction of me, that range runs from mid-30s to late 40s. (i.e., the never-married-want-children age to the twice-divorced-with-kids-in-college age).

Ah well. If my past experience is any indication, I'll spend a while trying to find someone to date, but whoever I end up with next will be someone I just sort of encounter by accident.

"Ah well. If my past experience is any indication, I'll spend a while trying to find someone to date, but whoever I end up with next will be someone I just sort of encounter by accident."

I feel exactly this way - I tried to date quite a bit this year, and it really went nowhere. I feel like I had my heart smashed to smithereens over and over again as well, because I got really invested in the idea of putting myself out there, getting my hopes up with each girl I went out with. I had this weird moment two days ago where I ran into two girls I had crushes on a few months back and I barely felt anything for them anymore. I think this is because I'm just so tired of feeling heartbroken that I don't want to risk going back to that feeling.

Well, yeah. There is the whole risk-of-heartbreak thing. I was saying to a friend not long ago that at this point in my life -- after two divorces, which were each 9-year relationships, and some other shorter relationships -- a new relationship starts to feel a bit like getting a new pet. You know you're going to love having it, and you know it's going to die at some point. I mean, I don't completely rule out the possibility of a "lifelong relationship" of some kind, but it's sure getting harder to expect it. And it's not what I would go into anything planning on, because my experience doesn't make it seem very likely.

Still, I prefer time I spend with people I care about to time I spend wishing I was with people I care about. So, I guess ... bring on the dating. (It's going to depress me when I revive this thread in six months to say I haven't had a promising date the whole time...)

Best of luck tipsy. If my current relationship takes a dive (looking more and more possible, though not inevitable yet, and I hope it doesn't) then many of my hopes for the future depend on men in circumstances like yours not throwing in the towel!

I'm just so tired of feeling heartbroken that I don't want to risk going back to that feeling.

It sounds to me like you definitely need to go back to that feeling, but not by way of a new relationship so much as just going back to the memories of your previous relationship and feeling again what it was like when it happened.

By this I don't mean replaying things to figure out "what went wrong" (although some of this figuring out may happen spontaneously). I mean just steeping your heart in the sadness of it, like a teabag being dipped around in boiling water. Cry about it. Bring the heartbreak right into your heart and soul and let it live there.

Strange to say, this is a very healing thing to do when you allow it to happen. The difficulty is that nobody, but nobody, ever relishes the idea of feeling pain, so facing squarely up to it and letting it in is damned hard to do. If you decide to try this, remember to seek out people you love and trust and spend time with them while you are going through this.

Eventually you'll notice the pain becomes a piece of you that you accept - something you've absorbed into your emotional sinews. At that point you should be able to face new relationships with confidence, born from the innate knowledge that it is something entirely new and different from your old heartbreak. It will entirely kill the fear. Really.

Thanks, this is good advice.

xxp, thx ljubljana. and nah there'll be no towel-throwing. i like gurls too much.

Yeah don't throw in the towel. Remember there is another subset of women in that exact age range who think "don't have kids, don't want kids, kinda relieved if man has already had their kids so no pressure on me, phew."

... and those who are happy to fully participate in the lives of their partners' kids.

I think part of what's weird to me about the idea of "dating" at the moment is just the sense of not having anyone particular in mind. Going out looking with no distinct aim. Thinking about my sequence of relationships (including the marriage that just ended), I realize that it's been 11 years since I wasn't either in a relationship with someone or at least had somebody in mind as a possible partner. As each relationship ended, there was always sort of somebody else there who I was interested in or who was interested in me. Right now, I know nobody who seems like a possibility, not even anyone who I'm daydreaming about. It's an unfamiliar feeling. (There were two women I sort of had in mind whose paths I had crossed in recent months, so I did discreet Facebook checking on both of them -- one is married, the other is gay. Ha.)

A friend of mine last night was giving me a big pitch on the virtues of online dating -- he's a veteran of it, and he's had lots of dates, some of them good ones. But I don't know. I did fill out an OKCupid profile, before immediately disabling it, and one depressing thing they sent me as a result was a map of the country showing the areas where I was likely to find the most or least compatible people. Not surprisingly, the "most" areas are all big cities, mostly coastal. The Southeast, where I actually live, is the "least." I'm afraid the online dating sites would mostly reflect that: lots of Republican Christian football fans.

...and that period 11 years ago was only about 8 months long, after my first divorce -- and that divorce ended a relationship that started when I was 18. So basically, that's 8 months out of the last 23 years that I haven't been either involved with someone or "pursuing" (or whatever the right word is) someone in particular. No wonder this feels so strange.

Try thinking of dating as another outlet for general socialbility and companionship. It might work. (Full disclosure: I'm just guessing here.)

Yeah, I mean, that's pretty much how I've always met people, just by going out and hanging out with friends, etc. Even the idea of, like, going into some bar with the explicit intent of finding someone is pretty alien to me. When I'm single, I'm always much more aware of who's around, whether they're attached (getting back into the habit of automatically checking ring fingers), all of that. But it's hard for me too get psyched up and say, "OK, I'm going out tonight and I'm going to get someone's phone number," or whatever. So, who knows.

that's probably for the best, honestly - i'm kinda in the same position - feeling some vague pressure to date and "meet someone," but at the same time thinking, "You know what? I don't really need to do this right now. I've got plenty of other things I want to do."

As you get older, whole years go by in that 'transitional' mood.

I am older!

But sarahel otm, a big part of me does not want to spend a lot of time every day worrying about trying to meet somebody. There are plenty of things to enjoy about single life (even single-life-with-kids, because half the time I get the pleasure of their company, and half the time I can do pretty much whatever I want).

It's just, of course, those lonely nights that nag...

yeah - the last two nights, the weather was crappy and i didn't feel like going out, and it reminded me of the good parts of having an s.o.

So OK finally I was just like the hell with it and put up a matchcom profile a few days ago. And now I'm having drinx with what appears to be a totally cute red-head doctoral student on Wednesday. My first Internet date. I feel so modern.

*cheers*

Would just like to update to note that while doctoral student mentioned above did not develop into anything more than a Facebook friend, a subsequent dating episode with other girl has turned into actual awesome new girlfriend. (Though she did not come from Internet dating service. Rather through convoluted series of connections.) So, this is nice.

http://moccsocks.myshopify.com/ - these are bitching for summer sneakers. No more having to go sockless to not look ridiculous.

Jwi

Bizarre, I went to this thread to moan and saw those last posts of mine. I have no idea where they came from, sorry.

Hmmmm perhaps a message from your future self? Or have been on the Doctor Who thread too long?

I like those socks. But I didn't know that ankle socks were so shameful that "getting caught wearing" them was almost as bad as stinking up your shoes by going sockless.

so yeah tonight i will be hanging out with a real live woman who is not my soon to be ex-wife for the first time in 15 years. Im anxious as all hell and have spilled an entire italian sub all over my shirt. So i smell of onions and vinegar...HOT TO TROT.

Maybe she'll be a salad lover.

not so good

Or she'll be well into it, who knows?

cozen up above on this thread, in 2003, asking 'am i a rockist of the heart?' = one of the funniest things i've read on ILX

So... in a massive break with my tradition uselessness, I actually asked someone out. She said yes, and the signs are good, but had to rain check our original date and, what with the festive season, I feel like I've really lost momentum and am not sure how to get things moving...

Asking was a big big step for me though, let alone having her say yes.

*traditional

Any reason not to just jump in and suggest a time and place? You seem to know your town pretty well. Wow her with a great idea. Which I believe you have done before wrt first dates, to great effect.

Hey ljubljana! Thanks for the confidence boosting and wise advice.

I get worried about being overly keen and bothersome, which I know I can often be guilty of and I know is off-putting. But then, also, I feel that sometimes one must seize a moment, before it is lost forever...

You asked her out, then had to postpone, is that right? And she accepted first time? If someone didn't ask me out again after that, I'd think they'd changed their mind! Or did you somehow agree she'd be the one to set the next time/place? If not, she's waiting by the phone, or near it, or thinking about the phone, *right now this minute*

Ha, now I have the opening a reply to a txt fear!

Yeah, that was the story... she gave me her number at that point of postponement and we started exchanging texts.

open it open it, then plan a windblown stormblown evening

I met someone on NYE and they were really nice and then they flew home to the country they live in which is 3000 miles away

I opened the text; it's all looking good. Will keep you posted...

coal, I'm sorry to hear that. Are you keeping in touch at least?

Mutual friends so I think so. Unexpected turn of events so a few different emotions

semi date coming up and quite nervous and stressed. wish i could turn my brain off until the actual event because i'm stressing myself out!

Someone you've known for a while or a new person on the horizon?

I just created an OKC profile myself (maybe this should go in the OKC thread) and I'm already frazzled before even messaging anyone. Hmm. It's weird to think about dating after seven years of not thinking about it at all. Best of luck, rayuela!

thanks!!

ljubljana, it's someone i've known but never in a dating context. i would say more, but my paranoia has convinced me that i can't say anything remotely identifying even though there is .0001% chance this person has even heard of message boards.

anyway, my therapist helped me to realize that i was stressed because i was refusing to admit i was excited and was instead channeling all that energy into doom and gloom. i'm feeling much more sanguine about the date now. heh.

dating makes me feel like a crazy person.

Because dating is a thing that only crazy people do.

seriously, why do i even bother. this is too much mental energy.

We make it too much mental energy, I think, with all the expectations we circle up around it?? Also, being bored at our jobs all day but confined to desk chairs does not help discourage the little manias that spring up.

the expectations are too much! i have just had such low expectations from OKC that the prospect of going on a date with someone who i am actually friendly with is rather disconcerting.

any NY ilxors up for drinks tonight?? i'm in need of a distraction.

I may very well be, but I think it would probably be in Bushwick if anything? Hm unless something brews up in the city.

i was thinking somewhere in the lower east side or thereabouts...is that too far??

I didn't see this earlier . . . but count me in for drinks next time.

yes! i still owe you a drink :)

I owe her a drink, too! She'll be getting loaded for free at this rate.

the benefits of buying rounds for everybody when you're already drunk!

i'm not trying to be a dick, but some of you guys seem a bit neurotic about all this! dating doesn't really have to be so fraught with angst you know. simply ignore advances/okcupidmessages from obvious psychos or dullards, flirt back with/answer advances/messages from people who seem cool and worth a few minutes of your life to interact with. when you meet someone you think is cute and interesting, you exchange numbers, you get together for lunch or coffee once, where you know there's no chance in hell of spending more than an hour or two together, basically to further suss out attraction levels and filter for stalker-y/psychosis red flags. if low-key test date is fun, you go out, have some drinks, conversation, see what happens. some dates work out ok, some don't go that great, once in a blue moon you meet someone you really really click with and its awesome. but that's much less likely to happen if you don't slog through some less-than-perfect dates first. an awkward date wont kill you ya know.

^^^ all this does out the window when you're freshly divorced. i've been on both ends and it just comes with the territory. you get a year or 2 to deal with it, then it's time to suck it up and get out there again already. a few awkward dates and some casual sex seems to help the process move along.

thx messiahwannabe

Haha, I had no idea that either of you "owed" me a drink. The more inebriated I am, the more generous I get. I guess that's better than drunkenness bringing out some latent stinginess?

gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

dating trouble?

now that I am drunk, I will say. lady I have been friends with forever, after a party sort of event at her place, says let's go to my room and listen to music. I figure she is sleepy, prepare to say goodnight and go home, and she is like "I planned this entire event in order to get you in my bed, you should stay." how can I be an adult and not notice such things? she thought I wasn't interested, I thought the same, people are so stupid. well, me. she is clearly awesome.

Wow mayzing

doesn't sound like much in the way of 'vagaries' tbh

it was for me

respect. sounds pretty awes though.

yeah seems like it's working out for you!

"I planned this entire event in order to get you in my bed, you should stay."

a+++

hope she said it with a semicolon tho

I dunno, is this a better place to maybe discuss this?

Firstly, that we only name it "animal lust" when we are powerfully attracted to someone who is wrong for us in every way. When we feel powerfully attracted to someone who ticks all the other boxes, we call it "true love" or "head over heels" or something else, because it's appropriate desire. The animal lust is what we call desire which is inappropriate.

But I was actually trying to compare and contrast two slightly different things. I've reread this Lisa Diamond book on sexuality this past weekend and it seemed like it supported her theory that there are two different (though related) mechanisms of desire. That one she called Proceptivity which is mostly internally-driven and hormonal because one is feeling horny (and if it wasn't this person at work triggering it, it would be some attractive person in a shop near me, or a random person on the internet, but I'd still just be externalising something which was originating in me.) And the other is Arousability, which is that process by which becoming intimate with someone and getting to know and trust them and you start to think that they are the most amazing person on earth - and then once you have started thinking "this person is awesome" up pop feelings of desire which are based on being aroused by that person.

Sorry, I should have spelled that out better. I have a bad habit of dropping in jargon I've recently picked up which puts a name to a thing I've been thinking about and noticing for a while, but didn't know there was a name for, and then assuming that everyone else has been reading the same books/blogs/press/etc and knows what I'm talking about.

(I've been having having trouble detangling feelings of "I'm getting to know this person and I like them, but I'm not sure which way it's going" for one person I've been seeing, from feelings of "OMG, lluuuusssstttt" for someone completely inappropriate and kind of wanted to talk through varying types of desire and how to process them. Because it's been a long, long time since attempting to do that, for me.)

Didn't know where else to put this.

Watching the new season of First Dates last night and its the usual C4 bollocks of cloaking people's potential humiliation as an experiment although there is some funny-ish at times moments.

Anyway, why did we have to get the opinion of the staff? How lame an idea was that?!?!

what's cool is when you have a seemingly really great date - which never happens - and then don't hear a word of reply when you later inquire about a second. uuuuugh

in conclusion, unquestionably bad dates >>> mysteriously unfruitful good ones

dating is perhaps the worst experience ever known, which is why i've swore to live a life of solitude

^^^gets it

doesn't get it

I'm tryna date now it's weird but for once in my life I'm not threatened by the weirdness

i think i overheard a coupla college kids out on a coffee date the other night, i'm not sure. it didn't sound very romantic, more like they were reviewing their sexual and drug use histories to determine whether they would sleep together

#figuringOutHowToLive

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CLvMpBnVEAA5piw.png

makes u think

A research scientist at Indiana University's Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender, and Reproduction couldn't possibly be wrong about that, what with that classy Oxford comma and everything.

So like three weeks ago I was at a cafe, sitting next to v attractive and interesting woman who was on a date with some dude. I kept wistfully thinking "why can't I meet people like that", but then a week ago I saw her on OkCupid and immediately messaged her, and now am about to meet her this evening. Anyways, I'm not sure if telling her this story at some point (like, not immediately) would come across as a) totally endearing or b) totally creepy.

maybe after you marry her

I would very much like to know what became of EDB!

As shitty as dating via dating apps is, attempting it without one is a trial all its own. I've been "out" twice with this girl I had met before via shared interests but never really hung out with properly, took a chance and asked her to a film event (I know movies tend to make for the shittiest dates but it's the most obvious mutual touchstone as she has an advanced degree in film studies), a nice time was had but no firm followup plans were made, nor any outright overtures I could detect. Then we met up a second time a couple of days back - another movie, followed by drinks and about three hours of the most engaging conversation I'd had in a long time. On the way home (same direction), there's slightly more intimacy, but was it just the cocktails? Years of singlehood teaches you to doubt every potential sign. Anyway we have plans to catch Let the Sunshine In but it'll probably take at least two weeks since has a busy night-work schedule and I might lose my mind in the interim.

this sounds very promising! just chill out and stop using words like 'touchstone' imo

you have and may continue to do cool things together! let the intimacy take care of itself

yeah I guess I shouldn't be so neurotic about it, it's just a natural side effect of not doing any real dating for basically a decade

this sounds nice! ride the wave imo, wherever it leads seems like it'll be a good place

EDB is ed b. iirc?

this sounds nice! ride the wave imo, wherever it leads seems like it'll be a good place

ime this is never the case but I earnestly appreciate the optimism!!

The ending of Let the Sunshine In should be a good lead in for drinks on a 3rd date.

Good luck Simon. sounds positive

you can do it simon.

Go Simon!!!

I had a stellar day with a lady Friday and I look forward to the next time. I’m patient and not pushing things too hard but I take it as a good sign that she stayed up with me from early afternoon to midnight /)

I am about to tell you an epic tale about subterfuge, dating in the 21st century and the fall of human civilization. This actually happened to me and it could happen to you too. Get some popcorn. *Thread*

— миша (@bvdhai) August 19, 2018

completely nuts

PS my thing went nowhere lol

saw that earlier via max tundra retweeting an ilxor, which felt weird

Max Tundra is extremely online

Emily Witt writes well on Feeld, online dating during and post- pandemic, with a couple of lines on Roe. All pretty well handled.

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/annals-of-inquiry/feeld-dating-app-sex

Though it could've been better if someone from The Queer community wrote it but that's not The New Yorker.

Nothing is enjoyable anymore.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/jul/22/is-housing-crisis-killing-romance-modern-dating-jane-austen

Obviously it's all very middle-class. Partners can't get out of abusive relationships due to scarcity of a safe, affordable space. But you can see this stuff extending through society.

this has been "a thing" in the SF Bay Area for quite a while. ... the article definitely has that middle class focus, (to the point where I lost patience with it) but the housing crisis/relationship "stuck-ness" is harder on poorer people.

It's another category of gofundme campaign now ... along with "help pay medical bills" ... that is a clear example how broken "the system" is.

Sarahell otm. Of course everything is harder on poorer people, and one still hears the standard advice "well, then don't be poor."

Yeah I couldn't finish that piece either.