The Matrix Reloaded (full spoilers)

Action scenes = great. Freeway = un-fucking believable. Zion = a little too "lower decks of the Titanic" for my tastes. Morpheus = windbag. Dialogue = why did they write all everyone else's lines for Keanu as well?

Overall I thought it was pretty well paced for being such a long film. It was definitely watchable, but if you have no interest in metaphysics/cyberpunk/science fiction than I can definitely see the film being a long road to get through.

Some glaring and I MEAN GLARING plot inconsistencies concerning "The One's" powers

Seeing as how after the first two speeches, I deliberately stopped paying attention to anything but pure visual spectacle, I'm not sure what you mean. Explain.

I thought the Smith scene got silly pretty quickly, but whenever I know there will be CGI effects or obvious stunt doubles I always look for them and believe me they were there early on too.

And I see... your problem with Neo is the same as mine. Maybe he just likes to kick ass. But the fight scenes, and indeed every moment of dramatic tension, was spoiled by the fact that we know the third movie has the same core cast. Kill Molly? I mean... whassername? Trinity? What a joke.

The lesson here: never name your child Persephone. The same fate will befall her. It's a chicken-egg problem.

Has anyone seen the Hulk preview? Now THERE'S some shitty-looking CGI.

http://linux10985.dn.net/display.cgi?id=15192

So much promise, so little follow up.

P.S. Good god, yes, the Hulk movie looks to stink worse than a bag of rancid assholes.

The true tragic but flawed hero.

The Wachowskis did the one thing that they needed to do to keep me from being disappointed. The rest of it was gravy (that could have stood some editing; 'specially the rave with the really boring backing music.)

Was a tad disappointed that they turned Morpheus into an unthinking zealot, though. Had hoped for better in that respect.

And they had Neo fighting 'cause it probably would've been boring to have him talking. That said, i'd liked to have seen more crazy anti-fighting instead of the chop socky action. I'd like to have seen him turn all the bullets into flowers or butterflies or otherwise indicate that fighting him conventionally was useless.

The Superman-esque action scenes, however, were pretty ace.

Not as good as the first, but name a sequel that is.

I don't think when there's that many minorities in a movie you can cry tokenism. I don't think I've even seen so many minorities, particularly blacks, in a big Hollywood movie before. It's encouraging.

What really disappointed me was the TOTAL LACK of contemporary super-hep technoid thump traxx to accompany all the kungfulistics. That courtyard dogpile poleaxing scene would've been much helped if it were set to Daft Punk's "Aerodynamic" or something.

I'm sorry I have nothing more interesting to say at the moment.

I didn't think the movie took its serious content seriously, but maybe that's just because I assumed it couldn't possibly.

2) There are multiple times where the human manefestations of the computer bits (Architect, Oracle, etc) all say to Keanu something along the lines of, 'I can see what you're thinking!' or 'Your expression tells me you're confused!'. This is so the audience can tell what Keanu should be doing as an actor.

3) Monica Bellucci is hella-hot. Rubber is a good look for her.

4) About halfway through the Architects speech someone in the audience yelled "Fast forward!!!". He was right to do it.

Maybe Neo can stop bullets beacuse they're ruled by computer-generated physics, but he can't freeze someone in their tracks beacuse they're capable of the same mind-over-matter hooha that he is, just not on his level. That would explain why he has to sword-fight 8 people manual. I mean if you want to start rationalizing... That's like all these negative reviews calling the fight scenes gratuitous and using arguments that result in their jobs as film critics just as unnecessary.

I didn't like the rave scene much either... like what's with these Stomp drums? They have Hoverships and Mechwarriors but when it's time to rock the house they're unplugged all of a sudden. I agree that the soundtrack as a whole was weaker than the first... and DAVE MATTHEWS?! WHAT?!

PS: Thank you, Matrix people for not making Donald Sutherland the Architect. I can tell you wanted to, but it's just better the way it is.

also keanu is fucking hot.

although, because it came from FARK I'm sure most of you have already read it. eh.

I liked it quite a bit. I could pick on the music and the speeches and the acting style in general, but I was happy more than not. Maybe I wanted to like it and that's why I did. I was certainly a bit nervous about seeing it since I'd heard other people's disappointed reviews. I'm not a sophisticated moviegoer, and I guess if you asked me what the point of the movie was, I couldn't tell you. I expected it to be a bridge to the next movie and I think it did a good job of that.

And maybe I'm alone in this, but I think those geek Wachowski boys got the sex stuff just right. I was shocked. I thought the sex scene was really hot, and the rest of the love story very natural and believable. I totally wanted to be Trinity and Neo at the same time, and that's a great feeling.

A+!!!!

Cannonball Run II, natch.

Overall, I think it was pretty lame. I loved the first one, but Reloaded didn't know where it was going half the time. The fight scenes were neat, but it was about as dramatically involving as watching someone play Tekken. Overall there was too much unnecessary, and pointless development (the 'rave' scene, the 'kid') that could have been shortened or cut completely to make room for some real dramatic developments. The CGI was way overblown at points. I see a much better movie in there trying to claw it's way out.

Okay, for one, how many people here had any idea what the fuck was going on at any given point in the film? There they were, going up elevators, driving around in their spaceship, and the whole time I there was really no narrative impulse. Like, they're going to go get the Keymaster! Great! Why do I give a shit again? Even the set pieces I had really no stake in at all; there was no tension at all! (the closest the movie came was the fight on top of the truck).

And those loudmouths they kept going to see. Really, if you're going to wait forty-five minutes to really start the movie, at least show me something interesting! I mean, really, everybody they ran into seemed to just want to chat for a couple hours. I really couldn't pay attention at all to what they were saying, as I didn't really care at all what was going on. Like, the Merovingian, or whatever he was called; do we really need to hear any more about cause and effect? I felt the first movie was exciting enough that I could sit through that stuff--even though I thought there was a dry spell for the whole middle of the first one where everyone kept discussing the Matrix. I was hoping Reloaded would dispense with that now that everyone's got the idea. Boy, was I wrong.

I also didn't think it look particularly great, especially all that sackcloth Zion shit. The fight with the multiple Mr. Smiths (and why exactly is it cool that there are more than one of him? There were tons of faceless agents in the first one) just looked so shitty, especially Keanu's face. And what about those dreadlocked guys? Were they scary to any one? Intimidating? Did anyone breathe a sigh of relief when they blew up?

Oh yeah, and I really couldn't stop laughing during Morpheus's big speech. He seemed really nervous, and his voice went up a few octaves. And then those Stomp guys! The rave! Shit! What the fuck?

Oh, and did anyone else find it funny that Morpheus wasn't the supreme commander of the place? I think he misrepresented himself a little in the first movie--he's just a lowly captain of one of many countless ships, right? Not the impression he gave me...

P.S Is there anyone on this board who doesn't hate hippies?
Is this a british thing?

Well, I imagined the Winter brothers as rastafarians for a spell and got pretty fucking freaked out.

This argument drives me crazy. I didn't expect a crystal-clear plot, I expected (or at least hoped for) an enjoyable movie that was coherent enough for me to get into it.

Hark! Methinks I hear the old familiar cry of the rationalizer, the one who is convincing himself more than anyone else.

We've all been there, right?

Unfulfilled promise of The Matrix #117. But who's counting?

This is obvious, no? They're easier to wake up because they have less psychic investment in their Matrix lives - the assumption is as American minorities - than their white counterparts.

Also, Cornel West on the Zion Council = CLASSIC!

other disconnected thoughts: the philosophy parts were less integrated into the movie than the last one, it felt like "okay everyone sit tight, cos here comes the obligatory existentialist bit, but don't worry someone is getting kicked in the face *real soon*". i did like the modernist architect dude tho. he was like an evil colonel sanders. few attempts at charm this time: the oracle is still a sassy elderly black female, that kid with the spoon gave neo the spoon, french ppl are so fucking french you just gotta drive medieval weapons through their hearts. and that's that. oh and the wisecracky smiths i guess. maybe the dreadlocked warhol-entourage phantasm guys. nevermind. the persephone 'sexual tension' bit was horribly forced, some 'truth or dare' dropped into the middle of the film without clear purpose (and then philosophically 'redeemed' with the "such things are not made to last" bit). also, some poor action pacing towards the end, the nuclear power plant blowing up was maybe ultimately a minor plot point, but its also like the most unearned explosion i've seen since like... 'swordfish'. i liked the superobvious neo-christ 'heal the poor' scene, i thought maybe the chance to interesting things with those parallels was ended a little prematurely. the rave scene/nelly video went on a bit long, the whole african-ness/blackness/people-who-wear-black-ness being equated with primal physicality (their machines are all proto-industrial sweaty, churning cog-driven affairs) prob deserves a sneer.

disclaimer: everything i didn't mention above kicked ass. kinda.

I'm a little annoyed by the dismissive tone of "pop philosophy" in the reviews (for the first one too). I mean, this is philosophy in action for a mass audience!

Reminds me of the reviews for Waking Life. Critics get very impatient with that stuff for some reason. I still don't get the hostility to any of the stuff said in Reloaded, since I found most of it very compelling. Then again, I read that kind of stuff for fun, so maybe it would be annoying to someone without an interest in it.

a transcript of the scene in question; not bad for a two-minute scene:

http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte484v/wakinglife/neohumanguy.html

The rest of the site, including an overview of the film:
http://www.prism.gatech.edu/~gte484v/wakinglife.html
"

Neo fighting 100 Smiths was purely for fun, its funny people have such a hard time accepting that. surelt this is in the tradition of martial arts films and anime. it was possibly about honour and respect and a statement of intent by both parties. neither thought there would be a real outcome by fighting, but it was a chance to 'touch base' and showcase what they'd learned...as the Oracle's aide did a similar thing by fighting Neo to 'make sure you were The One' and Neo jokingly replies 'you could've just asked'...but that would've been boring! and if you were bored by Neo vs 100 Smiths then you might just be bored of life...and martial arts tradition possibly.

Good essay here:
http://www.themorningnews.org/archives/reviews/unloading_on_the_matrix_reloaded.shtml

i actually think the multiple smiths is meant to be some sort of thematic or conceptual point, tho i have no idea what. it's interesting that, finally being "free", he takes it upon himself to reproduce as much as possible, much like a virus (which is what he calls the human race as in part 1). if part 3 fails to develop this then i will be willing to call it pointless.

i didnt really care for any of the action scenes in either of the films, and action in general usually tends to bore me. martial arts stuff needs to be pretty for me to care, and too often in this film it fails to do that. but i really loved everything else, esp the belluci scenes.

ala parallel universes? i must admit the whole 'this is version 6.0' thing bugged me a bit but its also quite cool - so The Oracle is a program and not an original human as was suggested in the first film, The One is also a Machine concept created to initiate the destruction of version 6.0 of The Matrix after The Architect (a machine himself i guess?) realised that humans in The Matrix were being given too much choice about their lives and there were too many bugs in the system (ghosts, rogue programs like Agent Smith etc.)...so perhaps in the third film Neo may have to resort to his 'original human' self in order to destroy the Machines (for to do anything else would just mean he is following their protocol or something? tho maybe not, as it looks like he wasn't supposed to carry his power into reality and destroy the Sentinel as he did?)?

other things i'm too dumb to work out: the guy who survived and is opposite Neo on the operating table at the end, i missed out on who this guy is exactly somehow. he was the guy on the same team as the one who cut his hand and was gonna kill Neo early on? was this the same guy taken over by SMith in Neo's dream at the start? or was it that ugly bloke himself who was the one Smith took over? so that was not strictly a dream? ack....also is Naiobi (sp) dead or not? i have to see this film again obviously

funniest part of the movie

*Once again, the responses of the other Ones appear on the monitors: "You can't control me! F*ck you! I'm going to kill you! You can't make me do anything!*

With all the middle-finger action.

If you've seen Bound this wouldn't surprise you.

Slo-mo action + lame philosphy lectures:
The Matrix Reloaded vs Chariots of Fire
FITE

1. So the Architect is the father of the matrix and the Oracle is the mother, right? This is not explicitly acknowledged by the Architect but let's assume so. She has said that she's a program, but she has also said that you can't necessarily believe what she says.
a. So her motivation all along has been to get neo back into the mainframe so that the system can be rebooted (so to speak) and zion can be destroyed. So she's bad?? I say that that was her purpose in the previous five matrices but that she has recently gone rogue for this one...she says in the park-bench scene that 'you've convinced me, Neo' or something to that effect. (this scene has way more useful information than I thought the first time.) I don't see what exactly he's convinced her of but whatever. Still possible that she hasn't gone rogue at all...

2. Mr Smiths. Definitely rogue, explicitly pointed out by lack of earpiece. I'd go for the virus theory as well. He's out to cause trouble, but still has scraps of his prime directive to neutralize Neo. This is the first time such a thing has happened--that is, it didn't happen in the previous versions of the matrix...think back to the scene where Mr Smith drops off his earpiece and then the other three agents come in and fight Neo...one Smith says 'that happened as expected'...the other: 'it's exactly as it was before'...the first: 'well, not exactly'...*evil chuckles.*

3. Merovinginian et al: He is a powerful program who wants more power. By his nature he does not want a disruption in the status quo unless it brings him more power. He has been around for previous versions of the Matrix. I guess that he's making it hard for Neo to reach the mainframe (by keeping the Keymaker captive, etc) because then he'll have to start from scratch. I'm thinking of him as a brilliant industrial baron who could probably build an empire if he was dropped on a desert island naked if it came to it, but he'd much rather keep all the power he's accumulated.

And then the bit at the end where Neo repels the squiddies through the sheer force of his mind or whatever, I'm guessing that somehow he's still in the Matrix. Either the whole of Zion and the scorched world is just another level of the matrix or somehow they took a wrong turn through all those doors and entered a replica of the real world. I'd guess the first option really. Classic sci-fi plot device; leave you wondering at the end what world is really the dream world.

I think they (or at least Neo) are still stuck at the Merowingian's place because in the Superbowl trailer Trinity says "you give me Neo or we all die right here, right now" to the Merowingian.

As a film, this was quite good. As the first half of a film, it might well be excellent. As an episode of The Invisibles, it's great.

Trinity says "you give me Neo or we all die right here, right now" to the Merowingian

Well, she says it, and someone else (who may or may not sound like the Merovingian) replies. The actual scenes could be at opposite ends of the movie.

Amen. Something the first one seemed to have going for it was that it knew it was a mediocre but cool as shit looking movie (or seemed to).

Trinity dies but Neo saves her! Just like the first one! Neo catches Trinity just as she's about to fall to her death! Just as he saved Morpheus 30 minutes before!

And the fight scenes seemd to trade a lot of martial arts via pulleys and wires for straight cgi. Bad idea.

Also, Cornel West on the Zion Council = CLASSIC!

Ha, I was expecting a theory on why Neo, the savior, is a pastey white boy.

isn't this a requirement of the genre? and isnt it a part of the fun?

I would've enjoyed this movie so much more if there had been a scene with fifty outraged Morriseys trying to kick Neo's arse.

(bascially a two hour ILM effects reel)

Again, if only! "poison roxx u r all gay", "hahaha not really" and "oh no!!! FITE! oh no!!!" would have really spiced up the dialogue, plus the architect would have explained rockism to Neo.

Is it wrong not to always be Keanu?

It is, but not when it gets bogged down in trying to explain itself. Did we really need anything about the Council in Zion? That was about as exciting as listening to the Councl in the Phantom Menace talk about their policies on intergalactic trade. The plot is about Neo, leave the "how do they recycle their water on Zion" questions for geeky internet messageboards.

Stranger has happened, they could make a musical out of Silence of the Lambs and...oh.

Top Five reasons I can't hate on this movie:

1. Fighting on top of an 18 wheeler and then crashing it into another 18 wheeler and everything blows up and then the cheesy reaction shot of whatsisface in the ship as Neo rescues them Justice League stylee

2. The idea that the Matrix has people like the Oracle's bodyguard and the french-cursing dude and his wife. The gun with silver bullets and those freaky twins with the butter knives were entertaining, I thought, much more interesting than anybody or anything in the first film (save Hugo).

3. Agent Smith (though he got crapped on in this movie, really. He had the only lines worth remembering from the first installment and this time he doesn't even get to properly explain himself. I do like the idea that he has a manifestation in the 'real world' now. Freaky-deaky.

4. the TV screens showing the alternate reactions of Neo during the Architect blah blah. Proof that the bird is not obsolete.

5. more interesting questions dealing with free will vs. fate etc etc. Much better than the first movie, which was over-obsessed with the idea of the world we live in being fake (LAME unless that was a new concept to you, in which case, I'm very sorry)

Top Five reasons to hate it:

1. Saving Trinity's life inside the Matrix = lame! The flying was okay. The slow-mo endless falling with the bullets etc. was just k-dumb, and they made you watch it like 3 or 4 times. Fucking A.

2. Carrie Ann Moss in black plastic = SO NOT EVEN HOT, dude. Give it a REST.

3. Lawrence Fishburne opening his mouth to say words

4. I didn't have enough hit points when I got to the last Boss and it took me forever to figure out how to beat him, plus I kept getting lost in the Portal, dude, it sucked

5. Sunglasses on everybody is just a little tired. The way the Zionists dress inside the Matrix is completely fucking absurd.

That said I haven't enjoyed a film so much in ages, an action/sci fi film so much in maybe years. Didn't think it took itself seriously.

I mean come on lots of the fighting scenes border on Tom and Jerry style anvil on head ridicule, it must be intentionally ott. The ending was very poor though and a big deflation after that scene on the freeway which was more exhilarating than anything in the first film as far as I'm concerned.

I hate all the cod psychology and the subtle as a knife in the head anti capitalist messages but I suspect the reason people hate this is because they imagine various wankers they know thinking the Matrix is something more than the most bling bling obscene splurge of special effects and kung fu ever.

It is the benchmark as these in the know types tell me, can you ever imagine watching another god awful gun film again. They had been boring for years. The action scenes are usually the ones I'm bored by. Not in this case for once.

(obviously the rave scene was classic)

Finally am I the only one who thinks the next film is going to reveal how Zion too is part of the Matrix yadda yadda.

(is the ps2 game good?)

Would it help if you thought of it as an intermission?

the idea of great power being generated by the humans partying and having sex - cliched and Titanic/Ewok Village reminiscent

An Ewok sex/rave scene... we can only dream,

Actually I heard LB2 was going to be the Empire Strikes Back of the saga.

Not possible. I was ready to enroll in the French Foreign Legion and raise a militia after seeing Menace.

The fighting ie the actual real fistwork was sluggish, but the fites were by and large ok, not boring. HOWEVER the thing that had me laughing, like actually really giddy, was the *bink* sound effect (like little-league aluminum bat sound) when Kino tee'd off on one of the Smiths with the pole ripped out of the ground.

However, I HATE the feeling of hearing a mono/dialogue in a movie and immediately needing to imagine ways in which the ideas could have been said better and more deftly and still sounding like things actual people (or rogue bots or whatev) might say to each other. You can't write a character smarter that you are, and I don't think the bros. Wachowski are all that bright.

I like the way that perhaps Agent Smith is the hero. The only thing that could possibly save it now. Suffers fromt he curse of the dystopian future (everyone is grubby and its shitty but they have flying cars...)

Who says the computers / we have soul?

the possibly great/bad thing about The Matrix is that it may actually kill off the whole 'gung-ho dystopian future sci-fi' genre, taking it to its peak visually if nothing else. there may be a few more Philip K Dick adaptations to be made perhaps, but with The Matrix seemingly aiming to corner the market by encompassing so many divisions (sci-fi, kung-fu, general action) its currently hard to imagine future films being able to match this for thrills alone. certainly they could offer more intricate stories with better characterisation, dialogue etc. and genuine suspense/mystery in a tradition of horror, sci-fi horror and more psychological thrillers (because you're never actually really SCARED when watching The Matrix, unlike Alien or even Event Horzion or whatever). and while stuff like X-Men and Star Wars will be able to survive, what about another 'from nowhere' success like the Matrix happening? have the Warchowskis spoiled it for everyone/anyone else in this respect?

I think we will see from nowhere stuff again - of course we will. Its hard to get by the current studio system, but any film which was initially produced by Joel Silver will never be from completely nowhere.

They fail hugely, there are now about 20 people left IN THE WORLD (or is it 23?)

No, that was the other door. There's sill a quarter of a million left.
And the movie's not over.

will Neo and the Architect really never meet again as the Architect states?

how will the Oracle appear in the next film as the actress who played her has died?

if the Agent Smith phenomena never occurred in previous matrices, what has changed? and that bit where he says to Neo 'I watched you die...' was interesting, he was surprised Neo was still alive just as much as Neo was surprised Agent Smith was still alive. there must be something in this, especially as it has not been explained HOW Agent Smith survived...has it?

so i eventually figured the guy at the end on the table adjacent to Neo was Bain (i know i'm fick but bear with me)...but is this the same guy who cut his hand and was going to kill Neo in Zion? they look different...and Bain looks a lot like Cypher (some people have been saying it actually IS Cypher) but really it is Agent Smith who possessed Bain's body via the telephone at the start yes? so now one Agent Smith is in the 'mezzanine Matrix' while all the copies are still in the official Matrix...yes?

Bain is also the guy who tried to convince his captain (to volunteer to follow Morpheus?).

What has happened to the hundreds of Smith clones? What does he want with Neo.

but why is it not towards the end? esp. as the fight scenes after are inferior. there are genuine logical reasons for this fight happening at the time it did in the film it would seem - i hope so anyway

Both Neo and the Agents being faster than bullets also provides the only good reason ever for a fight to start with guns and end with punching.

Yes, there is a reason. It's called pacing a six hour film. These two movies are one long film that is cut in half. They were shot as one film. They were edited as one film. They were written as one film. Therefore, anything that seems inconsistent or unsatisfactory or unexplained, will probably be explained at the conclusion of this one film (esp. seeing as how the wack-owskis are fond of exposition).

That shitty shitty dialog (dude, I've read Plato too), the unconscionably horrible soundtrack, and the fact that the movie spent 60% of its time shoring up plot holes -- the 40% action scenes were pretty cool, I'll admit, but that hasn't saved the Star Wars movies from sucking either. I'm convinced that they didn't originally mean there to be a sequel, otherwise this pile would've been enjoyable.

Smith is trying to stop Neo from getting to THE DOOR because he's trying to kill Neo. If Neo makes it to THE DOOR, he gets away. Surely that was patently obvious...? Why is Smith trying to kill Neo? Because Smith hates Neo and has been trying to kill him since the first movie.

Aaron: In most movies, taking time to explain the world the movie takes place in is looked upon as "exposition" and "character development", not "shoring up plot holes". Really, the only plot hole I can think of was never explained (Where did Neo's precognitive dream about Trinity's shooting come from? How is it that what happened was EXACTLY what he dreamed about?); everything else was consistent with what both movies have presented to us so far (and they might explain the dream thing in the next movie, seeing as they explained the Oracle in this one and she was the only part of the first movie that I had problems with).

And since the thrust of the initial movie seemed to be to free people from the Matrix, they don't seem to be doing it much (except in a bit of backstory exposition).

But the first film goes out of it's way to point out that he's not just doing his job: he really hates them. The sensual world is having an effect on him.

(except in a bit of backstory exposition).

I don't think you'd be happier if they added another 10 minutes of Neo freeing someone else. I could be wrong.

Though I think the Wachowski's are cheating by using stuff outside the film to fill in gaps: I think the kid who idolises Neo was freed in one of the Animatrix shorts.

Agreed. My hypothesis works, though, and I will stand by it until the movie explicitly tells me something different.

When Neo "destroys" Smith in movie one no mention is made of how hard this is - indeed it is seen as the fruition of his powers.

Don't you see the contradiction inherent in that statement? If it's so easy for Neo to destroy sentient objects in the Matrix, why did it take him until the end of the movie to figure out how to do it? Furthermore, why didn't he hunt down the Agents that ran away and blow them up, too?

Equally Smith's attacking Neo in the first film cannot be called hatred, he is doing his Matrix defined job.

??? Did you sleep through the scene in the first movie near the end where Smith is torturing Morpheus, telling him that humanity is a sickness, that he wished that the machines didn't have to sully themselves by living off of the humans, etc? Smith's entire character is a bundle of xenophobic bile directed at the human race.

After being resurrected, free himself from his own programmed constraints and with new abilities it would seem less likely that he would want to destroy Neo, as Neo may have the answer to why he is the way he is.

At what point in the movie did Smith appear unclear as to what he was or, more to the point, care about what he was beyond knowing the he was a self-replicating virus?

Why is he trying to kill Neo - especially as he has now found out (from film one) that this in all likelihood cannot be done.

He's trying to kill Neo because he hates humanity. He's trying to kill Neo because he didn't finish the job the first time around. Notice that Neo never had to fight off a gigantic swarm of Agents before this movie; it's not clear at all that the right number of Smiths couldn't take him out, particularly if they could keep him from flying.

None of what you have said above has been told to us you have mad ethe assumption as to why Neo doesn't use his powers in certain ways merely from observing him not using them, which therefore cannot be used to justify it.

There's a strong possibility that Neo has been exploding Agents willy-nilly up until this movie and it's only after being confronted by Agent Smith saying, "Thanks for turning me into a virulent virus!" in the playground that he stopped.

And since the thrust of the initial movie seemed to be to free people from the Matrix, they don't seem to be doing it much (except in a bit of backstory exposition).

Deeply unfair criticism; they explicitly say in the movie that they've freed more people in six months than they have in six years and that's what the humans the primary justification for the attack on Zion is. Furthermore, Neo has that kid whom he saved following him around like a mad prohpet, all of those people in Zion keep sending him offerings, at least one of the kids from the first movie has been brought out of the Matrix and is in Zion (hence the spoon), etc. The entire point of the second movie is the setup of the final confrontation, not the (comparatively) mundane tastk of busting people out of the Matrix; we saw how that all worked in the first film, who needs to see it again?

I mean, in the first movie there were a lot of great visual ideas--the super-scary shot of the humans in the pods, the telephone stuff, the bullet-dodging--and in reloaded they really didn't come up with anything to match that, or even bother to show us again the stuff that made the matrix universe fun to watch.

Wouldn't that spoon kid already have been rescued from the Matrix prior to the first film? Wasn't he at the Oracle's house as a potential One? Wasn't Neo's real body rescued before he went there?

And the freeway sequence wasn't?

Anyway, they DID show the telephone stuff and the bullet-dodging, plus they added the ghost programs, the flying sequences and its attended buggering of Matrix physics and the endlessly multiple Agent Smith.

Wouldn't that spoon kid already have been rescued from the Matrix prior to the first film?

That occured to me after I hit "Submit", yes.

jUST LOOK AT zION, THEE PLACE IS LIKE A JAIL!! WTF, iT SUx0r big-time!!!! zION MUST BE DESTROYED B/C IT IS THE PRISON FOR HUMANz0r! mORPHEUS IS THE FIERY ORATOR WHO KEEPS PEEPS BELIEVING IN THEE CAUSE, WHICH WE NOW KNOW IS FUTILE ANYWAY! JUST DANCE AND FUCK YOU STUPID HUMANGZ, THERE'S NO 'pROBLEM' HERE IN YOUR JAIL!!

HE MUST BE DESTROYED!!!!!

hAHAHAHA CORNEL WEST!

It is unclear what "the machines" will do when they get to Zion. Destroy it, or try to somehow re-enslave them.

I suppose this may be my big problem ith the whole affair now we've got to the second film. There is no obvious reasoning behind the intellignce. Where's the bad guy?

I agree about the humans in pods: it was the standout shot of the first movie. They may have been hoping for the same effect looking down the bore of Zion with all the crossing pathways: nope.

As far as visual spectacle goes, I'll have to repeat myself: irrespective of plot reasons for the Burly Brawl or issues with CGI, if you thought the fight was boring, you were watching a different movie.

(bah crosspost)

You mean Slimer?

Thanks for the thought! I just started wondering why I compared Matrix Reloaded to The Hidden upthread.

Color me jumping-to-conclusions but I assume the takeover process is fatal. I think Smith definitely wants access to Neo's powers but it's unclear whether subsuming Neo would leave his abilities intact.

I didn't think the first takeover was handled poorly at all; he kept popping enough at enough intervals to remind the audience that he was still there and still a potential source of trouble. (In fact, the end was a complete anti-climax in the sense that I knew who the survivor was going to be.)

I like the idea of Agent Smith as anti-hero, and am sort of hoping for that in the next film. Or to be surprised. Which is why I like this film: unlike the first one, I had no idea what the Big Suprise was when I entered the cinema.

Straight up hero, surely. (This is about the time I just need to admit I'm a Hugo Weaving fan.)

In the end I though poorly paced, poorly organised, little natural flow from the previous movie (starting with a dream sequence / really long flashback/flash forward was clumsy) and the ball park shifted without the average viewer being give the chance to ask why.

ALSO!@!!! Totally Agreed re: Agent Smith being the most interesting. SO - fans of the interesting, tell me this: why duz he say "to himself", upon replicating thee guy w/the phone (who we assume he has "taken over" somehow in Zion later?) "It happened just like before." "Well, ALMOST." * grins wickedly *

I thought it wasn't great. Yeah yeah we get another one soon to explane questionZ0r but eh? Are you kidding?? We are talking about THIS ONE! Thee problem was no suspense. In the first one we get Mr. Anderson crouching in his cubicle, or the crew of the Nebuchadnezzar trying not to sneeze, classic farce stuff: I hope they won't find me/us! Nothing like that here.

I think it would be funny if Neo had to go back to thee Matrix every once in awhile to call his Mom. I mean WTF, he doesn't care at all?? Maybe it's all a game, but that's still a real humang being "playing the part" of his mummy!

1. Where are all the animals? Why don't the computers just use cows for energy, rather than go to all the bother of having to make a fake world for humans?

2. What year was the Matrix set up? I know it represents 1999, but in the real world when was the big war fought? 2020 or something?

3. Okay, so if the Matrix began in 2020, allowing for population growth (even minus casualties of war) plus the way those mechanical brutes breed us, wouldn't there be too many subscribers? Like, if you have more than 6 billion battery farmed humans, there won't be room in 1999 for some of them. What happens then?

4. Also, is it always 1999 in the Matrix. In the real world, in the film, isn't it something like 200 years after that? So they've looped the same year nearly 200 times?

It is unclear what "the machines" will do when they get to Zion. Destroy it, or try to somehow re-enslave them.

A bit of both. 23 will be saved. Or, after Neo's choice, not.

I suppose this may be my big problem with the whole affair now we've got to the second film. There is no obvious reasoning behind the intellignce. Where's the bad guy?

If you mean that the simple duality of the first film is part of a Larger Plan, then I don't see that as a problem. But then, I'm still appreciating it as The Invisibles: The Movie.

Anyone want to bet a massive glass of beer (i've just finished work) that Smith will "turn good" in the next one.

Yes.

I am puzzled about the complaints re: no obivious intelligence behind the machines. Zion is a safety valve for the 1% of people who reject the Matrix; once it gets to a certain size/power level, they inject "The One" into the system to trigger a reboot, where "reboot" means "wipe out all of the dissidents, pick some new breeding stock and rebuild the system. (IOW, the Matrix runs on Windows.) (Haha so there really isn't any intelligence behind it.)

If Smith become a "good guy" I will vomit blood out of my eyes.

Smith already IS a good guy!!! This is SOOOO obvious!! In the first one he tries to get Neo to reject his "The One" persona and just forget about it: if this happens the Matrix can't get perfecter, the iterations stop, the contradictions/fractal/chaos theory/anomaly/whoo-look-at-the-time whatever-hooey ends up demolishing the system: voila no Matrix. Smith HATES the Matrix, the very smell of it! (Smith is NOT just a program, otherwise what could he possibly have to compare the Matrix with?) Neo gives him the finger early on because Morpheus has been pumping the messiah thing into his brane (which is part of the Master Plan!!) So plan B for Smith = try to stop Morpheus/get the codes to the Zion mainframe, so that Zion may be destroyed in toto. Zion is what ensures the Matrix's continued existence vis a vis its function as safety valve so again, voila, no Matrix. Dunno if Smith particularly cares about the humans he just hates his job: i.e. faff about in the Matrix.

MORPHEUS = GOD OF SLEEP!

Well, not entirely...

Those agents will be as fast as lightning.

Fucking Oracle. Costs an arm and a leg and you don't even get the documentation! </EXTREME GEEKINESS>

another possibility: Neo learns that the reality he was freed from in the first film, our reality, is itself a matrix constructed by a higher power (that would be God then...) and not the machines, so like a fractal the machines were replicating what was already there for humans - a shell within a shell. this might be a bit of a dead end tho, because there would not seem to be a system that makes more sense for humans to live in than this reality...unless, as with the machine-constructed reality, it is not true freedom. the point is, humans are technically no better off in reality than they are in the matrix - they are identical...so will be interesting to see if the next film goes beyond the mere escape from the inner shell back to the outer shell

Reading that transcript that teeny found, it appears that the sentinels are indeed going to kill everyone in Zion, and 23 new people in the matrix will be ejected to form a new one. So, we're probably talking about hundreds of years between versions.

stevem, why "the machines" need the humangs to be anything more than sessile vegetables remains a mystery to me.

a) Neo
b) a chimp
c) all of the above

"Why am I here?"

entire audience: groans

oh my god, best film ever

That ain't no trick. ;-)

Are you saying there is more then one race to blame for Keanu?

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/searchresults.php?board=1&q=Bill+and+Ted%27s+Excellent++Adventure&mode=threads

A bit harsh, but I understand the sentiment. ;-) His ancestry is Chinese, Caucasian and I believe native Hawaiian as well. Spencer would be a much better actor/rock star/technomessiah, methinks.

(x-post)

Zion council = 23 people! Do the crazy MATH. Failsafe.

whoa.

as anyone mentioned the carol vorderman link yet?

good though.

andy

andy

I thought the highway scene was really boring and crap and I didn't like the hundreds of Smiths scene either.

Morpheus' speech was so pathetic. He didn't say anything motivating or frenzy inducing, his voice sounded really weak and strained, he had no stage prescence. I don't get it, I though the guy playing the role was meant to be an actor - how come he couldn't pull it off? It was embarrassingly bad.

Keanu = k-hot.

I didn't notice the 23 on the council, 23 choosen to rebuild Zion thing. How many were male and how many female?

dude i think the sentinels are escape pods!! remember when the zionistick leadership is discussing how there's "one for every citizen of zion" and morpheus comes in going "sounds like machine thinking to me" and they're all like "whoa, morpheus, whassup" and forget everything they were talking about; sentinels r gunning for nebuchadnezzar because they neo et al are a DANJUH to mankind

i think the drilling and/or sentinels are sent by humans, alive at the top, taking the upper hand perhaps momentarily in their REAL fight against the machines, and sending down rescue crews to the poor fuckers who are literally living in hell (check out that lava action)

and for fucks sake will everyone stop complaining about how the 100 Smiths fight scene looked so CGI/fake...do you people sit and watch cartoons and go 'oh thats so unrealistic'? come on...

Well, at least I can remove my four-fingered white gloves from my hands.

The reason the matrix needs to be reset is precisely coz that failsafe can't handle neo, and his "anomilies" need to be redigested to make the next version more "perfect".

Think godel's theorem -- as things accumulate, neo is the "godel number" of the system which challenges its w-completeness, so it has to be recreated at a higher level etc.

So the entire movie cycle is a figurative instance of a guy hunched over his cubicle at 2 am saying, "God, I need to fix these bugs by tomorrow."

That's amazing, Spencer! You'll be claiming I don't like Andrew WK next!

ironically this wasnt the problem, seems people have issues with the quality of modelling and animating itself. i personally have nothing but raw intense love for that fight scene

Hell we're on a music discussion site. Who likes being told the best guitar-solo ever has sloppy finger-work? It's pointless. Get your heads in the game, for real.

As for the rave, it was OK, I say OK, once it became stylish instead of jungle-wierd, like maybe if the sex was not unpleasant that whole segment of the movie would have been pulled off.

Er, this is ILE, not ILM.

But when Morpheus totally fucks the shit out of the ghost guys, and out of nowhere, alone would have made Matrix 2 more intense and exciting for me then 99% of other moview: and as far as reducing it to action/philosophy in minutes, you still get more good action time here then any other American movie can get away with. So that is a stupid complaint.

All in all it was fucking great.

Lastly, you can't go tearing people's code apart when your fighting more than one, let alone more than 99. You're going to get your ass kicked while you sit there.

Yuen Woo-Ping, also responsible for fight choreography on Croughing Tiger Hidden Dragon, and the new Zu Warriors, which will never be shown over here because God hates me.

i hope they keep the plot just as incomprehensible

As well as Morpheus's speech (that Tracer mentions above), the rave sequence was totally rubb...unless...it is meant to represent a questionable 'alternative' lifestyle that is being manufactured for the few who 'live' in Zion (questionable is the key word here - this is why it is done so poorly). Continuing this line of thought, the sex scene was completely lame...unless...sexuality is being used as a passifier to placate the minds of the citizens of Zion and make them think that they are experiencing an authentic reality.

Trinity could also be a passifying program designed to keep Neo down - this would be a plot development for the next film. Alternatively, I could just be making excuses for the poor parts of Matrix Reloaded.

'It occurs to me that this movie seems to be written for philosophical software engineers more than anyone else.'

As a first year philosophy student I lived with three software engineers whose unsubtle DVD pirating operation allowed me to see the Matrix for the first time.

The many-Smiths scene was kind of like them going 'This is ridiculous and overlong and OH JUST LOOK AT IT! Look at the effects! LOOK AT THEM! Hahaha!'. A bit like that TvGoHome show where a hand holds up a shiny coin for you to stare dumbly at (and that entire last Star Wars thing), but in a good way.

The anticlimactic dreadlock albino twins reminded me of Luke Haines.

The Matrix is supposed to like, send you spiralling into all these big-ass epistemological crises ennit, but I'm probably just gonna lose sleep over the above Morpheus = Evil theory.

this was one of the worst movies I've ever seen. Everything that was cool about the first one was completely negated by Reloaded. For all the trouble they've gone to to create this credible Matrix-verse, they sure left a lot of loopholes.
Suddenly I'm looking forward to more shitty Star Wars movies.

Everything that was cool about the first one was completely negated by Reloaded

how exactly?

Everything that was cool about the first one was completely negated by Reloaded

how exactly?

All of the ambience created by the element of the Unknown was lost. By trying to codify what had before simply been overwhelming and nebulous, they trivialized the entire Matrix concept.

Stevem, I think most people's problem here (or at least mine) isn't neccessarily the quality of the dialogue (it was pretty bad in the first film too), but rather the overabundance of it--the too many long, long scenes of just talking heads, which never gave the movie the chance to build up any momentum. To me this is poor artistic execution.

i think i'll be sorely disappointed with Star Wars Episode III in perhaps the same way Horace has been with Reloaded - as he said he 'expected more' tho i'm not sure if that means he had ideas that failed to appear in the film or he expected more (and more convincing) character development and less cliched dialogue.

can some parallels not be drawn between Reloaded and X-Men 2 also? both seemed to drift somewhat aimlessly plotwise at times (tho this didnt make them actually boring as you were kept guessing as to how exactly things were going to pan out) partly because it became apparent that both films were trying to avoid certain courses of predictability at least at times and with both involving a wide range of characters, several of whom had very vague alleigances to good and evil (esp. as the nature of what is good and what is evil is challenged refreshingly in both films). tho neither could hardly escape relatively happy 'endings' that amount to 'love conquering all', both follow the model of the middle act leaving several things unresolved and setting things up for the next installement.

as far as the sunglass example that opened this thread, it's badass to wear sunglasses when it's cloudy or indoors, but in bright light what's the point; you look like a tourist. I mean, someone could accuse you of wearing glasses to protect your eyes from glare, and without irony I state that that would be a terrible thing.

parts of this great movie were just awful, and not in a laughable way.

Cowboy Bebob, episode five, hell yes.

i love that remark...truly it was awfully great, and greatly awful

actually i am not that big on most anime but i use the strong anime influence evident in Matrix Reloaded to argue it case, bizarrely. live action versions of anime films have been pretty much dud all round haven't they (altho i think Crying Freeman had its moments at least)?

There is a preview at the end of the film? Noooooooooooooo! That'll teach me to want a ciggy badly.

I thought the trajectory was less mystical; Morpheus is the mystic boy, and he's revealed to be a patsy, played like a sucker by the Oracle.

Trinity was mighty fine. More than fine. I will fite the One and her husband in real life, because I luv her more than any man could.

Think that many have been hysterical with this; it's Episode I/II redux. Hysteric's reaction is 'This is not it'. Expectations were just too high, hence inevitable come-down. I'm so glad I waited and calmed the fuck down.

Overall - kung-futastic. Thumbs up from me.

Attack The Gas Station

The Returner

Resurrection of the Little Match Girl

and of course I love Gunhed as well but they haven't made a DVD of it yet. Frankly I am waiting for the Criterion Collection to pick these up (HA HA).

http://www.frailart.net/members/kodanshi/Hammylet.jpg

i went and saw it again and yes it did make more sense. and the teaser trailer at the end looks pretty good, but tho i may have missed them i saw no glimpse of the twins in the next film, bah

That's not punny.

That is awesome. May I email you and ask a bunch of questions?

"Wait. OK."

I've also noticed that timecode can vary between different DVD players, so be wary of that. But yeah, this screencap is among the better ones I could get.

Or at the very least, a need to dress people in leather or rubber. And nothing else.

And just think, you could've saved us an IMAX frame from these scenes! I still can't believe you missed this - that's just hilarious.

I still dunno how ppl hate on this film when it contains the most intense fight/chase/fight sequence ever created. even when you know everything that happens, it still gives the clench. <3 <3 truck kombat.

i rewatched this after seeing it only once 10 or 12 years ago and it is not very good

trying to read about the plot and the purpose of neo in these sequential matrix iterations is hurting my brain

the first one has a similar amount of corny bits but it is ultimately a very thrilling and enjoyable movie

i never got round to watching the sequels but I caught a bit of the first one on tv the other day and it's in that awkward spot of being old and of its time enough to be egregiously dated but not quite old enough to induce fond nostalgia (caught a bit of austin powers: the spy who shagged me yesterday and it's in that same space in my brain). still a pretty fun film though.

i remember seeing this at a midnight show the night before it opened and it was pretty amazing how the thrills of the first film were completely absent here. i watched the car chase again recently and it was boring. i can't even watch the original matrix now tbh because the ending shot of superman neo just reminds me that his continuing adventures are going to be complete garbage.

but you get to rock out to ratm while you ponder the disappointments to come

the first film had a decent amount of humor and keanu was fully charming and the action scenes were scaled to a size that made them palpable and human level as opposed to video game-like.

neo and his pals certainly "raged" against a "machine" in this series you might say

i'm planning on rewatching the third film soon, i remember absolutely nothing about it except for like neo riding around a spaceship and seeing green code everywhere

the action scenes also seemed purposeful in the first movie

xp that's pretty much all there is too it tbh

I still dunno how ppl hate on this film when it contains the most intense fight/chase/fight sequence ever created. even when you know everything that happens, it still gives the clench. <3 <3 truck kombat.

― El Tomboto, Friday, October 3, 2008 11:54 PM (ten years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

truly otm, love and miss u tombot

good movie

Hadn't seen this since it came out. Tried watching a bit tonight, and you know what? Sucks.

everyone has always been bald

no wonder they all have to wear shades then!

its just too much