did the english orchesate the irish potato famine.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/7617518.stm

^ link to the first actual reporting of long-term anti-Irish abuse which we discussed on the SPL thread a few weeks ago

In the interests of fairness, I should point out that this is not the first time Rangers fans have sung this song, and they haven't just been singing it at Celtic fans. And I'm guessing the reason the Irish government is now involved is because the media, government and football authorities in this country have all managed to ignore blatant racism from thousands of people right under their noses, instead going after the real problem of Artur Boruc giving them the finger after listening to two hours of their pish.

Maybe the problem would disappear if points were taken off clubs where this happens. I don't think the "small minority of fans" singing sectarian songs would be tolerated by the rest of the fans.

the hated english were TERRIBLE MEN for the starving an entire nation.

if they aren't STARVING AN ENTIRE NATION they are saying an Irish athlete is "British" when they're winning and "Irish" when they're losing.

they are a disgusting race, the Brits...terrible!

The only thing worse than the Irish-hating British are those Americans of Irish descent who associate too closely with their heritage. I hate them sooooo much!

it was the Soviets

http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/fgeorge.jpg

BURT, HOW CAN U HATE THIS FACE??

Few know that the Irish potato famine was originally scored as a trio for piano, flute and harp.

http://www.a2zrecipes.net/LeprechaunSurfingInternet.gif

Maybe the problem would disappear if points were taken off clubs where this happens. I don't think the "small minority of fans" singing sectarian songs would be tolerated by the rest of the fans.

I've already pointed out Rangers have been spouting this anti-Irish racism for years and it has more or less been ignored by the Scottish media and football authorities for years.

How small a minority does it have to be before you stop docking points? One fan? Ten fans? Does it depend on the length of time they do it for before they shut up? I'd prefer a government that doesn't sweep it under the carpet and tackles it head on, rather than wasting money on "One Scotland, many cultures" posters and congratulatory backslapping about how inclusive they are while ignoring the captain of the Scottish national football team's leg injury being applauded by approx 7000 people singing "what a hell of a way to die, to die a Fenian bastard, a stinking Fenian bastard", for example (same game as the one that fans feel they now have to take elsewhere, having had similar complaints ignored in Scotland for years. There are similar letters going to UEFA etc, this "one fan doesn't like the Famine Song" is just the tip of the iceberg)

Kerr, do you really thinking years of ingrained racism will just disappear if Rangers get docked points? You don't think this exists outside of the football field? You think the assault that could have killed Neil Lennon two weeks ago (widely reported to have been preceded by verbal sectarian abuse) wouldn't have happened if a football team lost points? That the police could ask the SPL to dock points from a team for things that happened outside the ground? (that Gordon Smith would act in the first place?!?!?!) Assuming that the clowns that attacked Lennon are season ticket holders in the first place, of course...

(back to a point we did to death on the SPL thread - do you think Celtic should have had points docked for Artur Boruc "winding people up" at Ibrox by having the effrontery to not be scared of being a Catholic in the face of some pretty hysterical abuse?)

I think it's pretty telling that Rangers FC's response is that they had to seek guidance as to whether it was OK to keep singing it, and that they now suggest their fans don't sing it because it's not nice for the club to be associated with it, not because it is wrong.

FWIW, "the famine's over, why don't you go home" is just the chorus. Rest of the lyrics are here, http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=73402, a charming little ditty of child abuse and total wrong-headedness.

They have U2 and Bono

No they don't, they're Proddies

Celtic fans are hardly guilt free on this, if you've ever had to sit embarassed watching some Danish reserve get abuse hurled at him cos he once played 17 minutes for Rangers in 1994.

Against Ireland, I mean. I don't know if Scottish Celtic fans are different.

Have I said they are? Was the abuse sectarian, btw? I'm not advocating taking any of the fun out hurling abuse at your rivals, that'd be silly. I'm fairly equal ops about disliking Rangers players regardless of their background.

I just think it's pretty sad that some guy turns up to play for his country and is booed everytime he gets the ball cos he played for Rangers. Especially when it's somebody who barely had a good career there. There have been a few cases where the guy has no idea what's going on.

It might be excusable if it was a real Rangers stalwart but even still, seems kinda odd when he's playing for his country against Ireland, not Celtic.

I'm sure some of the abuse is sectarian, I mean, you don't catch Liverpool fans booing a Man United player when he turns up against Ireland do you? The very fact that every single Irish person supports Celtic as a first or default second team is kinda sectarian in itself.

I'm not saying that to counteract your points, just that the sectarian abuse is pretty stupid whoever it's directed at and that both parties are guilty of extreme stupidity.

http://www.bifsniff.com/wp-content/files/2007/02/mail.jpg

The very fact that every single Irish person supports Celtic as a first or default second team is kinda sectarian in itself.

Um, you what?

They certainly don't, in my experience.

I'm sure some of the abuse is sectarian, I mean, you don't catch Liverpool fans booing a Man United player when he turns up against Ireland do you?

What if he's playing against England? Oh, hold on... LOL @ concept of a Liverpool fan being at an England game. I can bet you that Hibs fans would boo an ex-Hearts player and vice versa etc etc etc

Sorry yes they do...what's your experience? The vast majority of Irish people, everybody I know who likes football anyway, supports Celtic or follows their results as their second team behind a Premier League side.

Hibs fans would boo an ex-Hearts player? Isn't that also a religious thing?

Hibs' name is a slight clue there.

Yeah I knew the answer to that question.

Yep, Paul Hartley gets singled out for the abuse from Hibs when they come calling. Though I imagine Ronan is going to suggest that it's sectarian now purely because he wears a Celtic shirt, even though he was getting pelters for being an ex-Hibs player at Hearts for plenty of years before he turned up at Parkhead.

I don't think painting every bit of Celtic v Rangers rivalry as inherently sectarian is doing anyone any favours. Rangers chuck plenty of offensive stuff at Celtic which has fuck all to do with history or religion, and I'm quite happy to draw a dinstinction between the two.

Ronan, can you explain why Irish people choosing to support a certain football team is "sectarian".

Choosing? Yeah that's a good one...

I chose to be an Irish Catholic at birth you know...

What the holy fuck are you on about? Is it not a choice? Do *you* support Celtic? Are you jailed or something if you decide to go against this forced allegiance? And how the hell is it sectarian?

Stop the Catholic On Catholic violence now.

Hibs fans would boo an ex-Hearts player? Isn't that also a religious thing?

No

Sorry yes they do...what's your experience?

My experience is that I've barely met an Irish Celtic fan - from the Republic I mean - in London.

Also experience of being in Irish bars where they won't show a Celtic game if there's any Premiership game on at all

Last two Irish bars I have gone in to watch a Celtic game when I was away, they turned it over to watch Gaelic football with half an hour to go in one pub, and wouldn't turn over until some Aus vs NZ rugby match had finished on Saturday just gone there. Even when they did turn on the Celtic game at my request in the latter, I was the only person watching because everyone else was watching Liverpool vs Man Utd on the other tellies.

Yeah well I grew up in Ireland so sorry, your experience isn't representative of much.

Look I don't even want a major argument about this but what I'm trying to say is that it's not a matter of choosing to support Celtic or not, it's like the second national side. I've no doubt if a kid wore a Rangers jersey to school no matter where they were being schooled they'd get major hassle.

I never chose to support Celtic but it's assumed you do.

There's a kneejerk anti-British sentiment in Ireland and one of the worst ways it manifests itself is by ex-Rangers players (not even Scottish) getting booed at Lansdowne Road.

x-post yeah cos Irish bars are actually a more authentic experience of Ireland than being born there and living there for 25 years.
Why should someone have to sit in the crowd and act like they support that? Or have to feel that a foreign player thinks that's how my country is?

I didn't choose for Celtic to be this default second side or for the whole country to support them. Somebody playing for Rangers seems very divorced from issues of republicanism for me.

Thankfully it's not the entire crowd that does this and it usually is criticised and I'm amazed people would defend it here. Why should somebody have abuse hurled at them because they played for Rangers, when they are in an international game against Ireland, for another country?

As for why it's sectarian, if you take the actual definition of the word then I think a whole nation (with a history of sectarian violence) casually supporting a football team whose history is based in sectarian conflict then I think that is sectarian yes.

There's a very fine line, as people singing "IRA" in the verses of "Fields of Athenry" shows pretty clearly.

x-post meant to be at the end there...

Errrrrrrrrrrr, you did ask for my experience?

yeah I did because I thought you might have lived in Ireland

a football team whose history is based in sectarian conflict

I thought you said they supported Celtic?

why not just make an argument instead of asking a question and I can then answer you?

Yeah well I grew up in Ireland so sorry, your experience isn't representative of much

Apart from the numerous Irish people I've met in my life

Why do people who have played for Rangers get booed? I would suggest that basically it's because Rangers as an institution have proved intolerant of Ireland and its major religion for the vast majority of its history, and that doesn't go down too well with anyone with any sense of tolerance and decency?

a football team whose history is based in sectarian conflict

Explain?

FWIW, I haven't heard the IRA/Sinn Fein add-ons at Celtic Park for ages. The fans were told not to do it, so they don't do it. There is one particularly nasty song about Nacho Novo (a Catholic! told you we were equal opps in heckling rivals) which has been shouted down every time I've heard it this year (twice in the same game, last season, from a handful of fans).

xposts, obviously

Sorry, you want me to make an argument? I would argue that Celtic was founded for charitable reasons, to give a community focus to those Irish immigrants forced out of Ireland due to the famine. Since their inception they have been open to all regardless of colour, creed, race or religion.

Can you explain how this squares with your understanding of Celtic as a club whose history is based in sectarian conflict?

I always wondered why Gerry McNee complained about Celtic playing Fields Of Athenry, What are these add-ons? "Fields Of IRA"? Nah it cant be. Sounds daft. Please tell.
oh and thanks for the link to the famine song, gonna click now and see what it is.

I'm coming late to this, but associating Celtic with sectarianism might have something to do with the more neanderthal end of their supporters.

Sectarian conflict does not necessarily mean IRA violence, in that sense of course Celtic have been involved in a sectarian conflict.

And this idea of Rangers as an institution is ludicrous, people aren't booing Rangers players out of a hurt and wounded sense of national pride. Do you think Rangers Football Club has any effect on the Irish state in recent years?

They're booing them out of small minded hatred and tradition. I can't believe you'd defend it.

I think there's an issue here too, which may be clearer to me (don't mean that arrogantly) of people in the Republic taking on the persecution of those who've emigrated which seems pretty shaky ground especially in the last 15-20 years.

If you'd actually grown up in Glasgow that might be different, but why should a Dublin catholic feel resentment towards protestants from Glasgow? Or footballers who just played for a protestant club in Glasgow?

It's often just a case of looking for a conflict.

the IRA add ons are "our love was on the wing/Sinn Féin/We had dreams and songs to sing/IRA"

There's no doubt there's an association - that's not the same as stating that their history is based on sectarian conflict.

the IRA add ons are "our love was on the wing/Sinn Féin/We had dreams and songs to sing/IRA"

There's also a "fuck the crown" in there after "against the famine and the crown". As ailsa said, these add-ons have been all but eradicated from Celtic Park.

I didn't grow up in Glasgow. but I don't think you need to have grown up in Ireland to see that "the famine's over, why don't you go home?" is offensive on any level.

I'm not denying that Celtic haven't had trouble in the past, but they have taken far greater strides to eradicate the idiot element of their support, whereas the singing of this song, plus others similar, continues to be swept under the carpet by the Scottish authorities to the extent that it's only this week, and someone taking it outside Scotland, that it's even been mentioned in the press.

Celtic fans be gettin' touchy if it's implied there's a significant degree of equivalence between Celtic and Rangers

well, based on, extremely tied up with. I'm not saying Celtic was set up as a wing of the IRA or something, just that Irish blanket support of them is not just cos people like the colour of the jersey. I don't know how it is in Glasgow but in the Republic you'd feel this more acutely maybe.

x-post I'm not sure if they still sing these at Irish games, last game I was at was in Croke Park and nobody was singing anything cos they drew 1-1 with Cyprus. But you'd be amazed at the amount of jolly singalongs where people use those add-ons (funnily enough the "fuck the crown" is one I've never heard in Ireland!)

xx-post to Ailsa, yeah I mean obviously that is unacceptable. I only highlighted what goes on at Irish games because I think that that is also really bad. I know you can excuse it as banter between teams, but the spirit of abusing some bewildered foreigner seems so mean.

If I seem particularly vehement about it I think it's cos even tho this is criticised when it happens in Ireland, a lot of people do take the view that it's just a bit of fun or whatever.

That guy who wrote HOW FOOTBALL EXPLAINS THE WORLD did say something about the freedom to be a git about sectarianism seemed greater in Scotland b/c they'd never made a concerted effort to bring it into the light and eradicate it. IIRC, I kind of skimmed the book a month ago.

What goes on at Irish games is not necessarily what goes on at Celtic games, even if there is some crossover in fan base. I'm talking about an ongoing campaign of racism and sectariam abuse (also a case for slander which cannot be brought since the accused is now dead) which has been waged within Celtic Park and towards Celtic at away grounds by actual supporters who go to the games. Keep within your frame of reference, by all means, but please allow us to keep within ours, which are more relevant to the point that I'm guessing Kerr was trying to bring up by not saying anything but just posting a link.

I took this book out of the library the other day, but I'm not holding out much hope based on the blurb:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Bhoys-Bears-Bigotry-Rangers-Globalised/dp/1840188103

Rangers entered the new world of sport and big business in April 1986 when they signed Graeme Souness, a man with no previous connections to a club steeped in its own historical traditions. These traditions are ineluctably intertwined with those of their great Glasgow rivals, Celtic, whose origins as an Irish Catholic club set up the rivalry that became known as the Old Firm, one said to be "a business based on bigotry". Celtic were slow to react to the Souness challenge at Ibrox, especially when Souness was joined by a new owner at Rangers, millionaire businessman David Murray who, like Souness, was committed to taking Rangers into the elite of European football - even at the expense of signing Catholic players, which the club had hitherto avoided.

Celtic didn't have to react to the challenge of signing players of any old religion (or none), since they'd happily being doing it for the best part of a century before the Souness roadshow rolled into town at the back end of the last millennium. And I do believe they'd already been the elite of Scottish football without the aid of Murray's chequebook some twenty years earlier.

“I mean, if it was just the potatoes that were affected, at the end of the day, you will pay the price if you're a fussy eater. If they could afford to emigrate then they could afford to eat in a modest restaurant.”

*applause*

I just posted the link as I know better than to get involved in this stuff (again)
x-post

But I didn't want to just post it on the SPL thread where no-one would see it apart from the usual mob and this way would also allow a bigger discussion than just scottish football since it obviously runs deeper than that.

xx-post i was awaiting someone doing the alan partridge!

"the famine's over, why don't you go home?" is offensive

OTM.

I'm not denying that Celtic haven't had trouble in the past, but they have taken far greater strides to eradicate the idiot element of their support, whereas the singing of this song, plus others similar, continues to be swept under the carpet by the Scottish authorities to the extent that it's only this week, and someone taking it outside Scotland, that it's even been mentioned in the press.

― ailsa, 16 September 2008 14:37 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Celtic fans be gettin' touchy if it's implied there's a significant degree of equivalence between Celtic and Rangers

― Tom D (Tom D.), 16 September 2008 14:39 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

At the risk of being beaten: how so? Have Celtic really made much progress? I don't know btw, I am no stirring here!

Also I agree with Ronan, I think that Celtic can safely be assumed as the default team for the Irish to support.

If I seem particularly vehement about it I think it's cos even tho this is criticised when it happens in Ireland, a lot of people do take the view that it's just a bit of fun or whatever.

THIS IS SO OTMFM!!!

Also as an aside there were a lot of celtic jerseys at the Dublin Riots so I do think that Celtic can be shorthand for nationalists of a sort.

Basically I shouldn't be here. I only wanted to discuss the famine!

That Partridge quote is disgusting (but funny) but DISGUSTING

Right, the wind-'em-up-and-watch-'em-go school of posting. Nice. xpost

hyggeligt, did you see any Liverpool shirts? Man Utd shirts? Ireland national football shirts? People not wearing any football colours at all? Why single out one group above any other?

FWIW, no club can legislate for the actions, beliefs etc of those who choose to follow them, but Celtic have done a pretty good job of keeping sectarianism and bigotry out of the stadium* (i.e. the bit they have actual control over).

* well, the home end at least :-)

Also I agree with Ronan, I think that Celtic can safely be assumed as the default team for the Irish to support.

So how come, from my experience, I hardly ever meet Celtic fans from the Republic? But Liverpool fans and Man Utd fans by the shitload?

Right, the wind-'em-up-and-watch-'em-go school of posting. Nice. xpost

I was thinking the same!

ailsa, honestly I only noticed the Celtic shirts. That could be my prejudices or the fact that a lot of fuss was made about it. Also I would like to point out that there is a certain element of nationalism to Ireland tatooes, celtic jewellery and the love of Christy Moore that one sees around and about. It just is to be honest, a lot of that though is generational, you would rarely (if ever) see it on someone under 35.

"You give us back Belfast and we'll give you back Liverpool"

Same thing really: emigrating working class Irish, identifying with a sport, it gets passed back. Man U love probably more to do with recent successes than anything political!

I'll try to find a gallery for you or something.

So how about that child molestation scandal in the Celtic youth team during the 60s, huh?

jk

"Cum on the small bhoys" sort of thing?

also, I've already pointed out that the add-ons to the Fields of Athenry + other songs deemed to be offensive have been all but eradicated. Celtic fans on tour don't bring the levels of fear, violence and town-wrecking that the good citizens of Villarreal, Barcelona and Manchester could tell you about (not sectarian at all, but perhaps borne of the same distinctions between common decency and being a common or garden twat).

You might not think it to read the popular press, mind, but since newspapers in this country seem to think Neil Lennon being beaten to within an inch of his life is the stuff worthy of a cartoon then I wouldn't use that as any kind of yardstick.

I'm still waiting on Pfunkboy to answer my questions, since I've always done my best to answer his when this subject rears its head on the SPL thread.

xpost, Dom, addressed in the famine song. We also got a nice song about Gary Glitter at the last derby game, suggesting that he also had a go at the youth team, hushed up by Jock Stein. how I laughed, etc.

I regret that last post more than I can possibly say :( (xpost)

I just did a GIS on Dublin Riots and had to go to the second page to find a Celtic jersey
http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/9763/hawking9kk.jpg

http://img419.imageshack.us/img419/9763/hawking9kk.jpg

What Dublin Riots? I've never heard of them!

Terrible so it was - miniature wheelbarrows being thrown at eminent physicists and all sorts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Dublin_Riots_25-02-06.jpg

^^^looks like a normal Thursday night in Northampton to me

Kerr, do you really thinking years of ingrained racism will just disappear if Rangers get docked points?

No

You don't think this exists outside of the football field?

You know I think it does.

You think the assault that could have killed Neil Lennon two weeks ago (widely reported to have been preceded by verbal sectarian abuse) wouldn't have happened if a football team lost points?

Well it might not have been done by someone who goes to games, but no.

This article might be useful. Mainly because it puts this quite well:

This sense of identity is expressed in various ways in addition to the tattoos - from the houses and flats decked out in green bunting during the world cup, to the well known 'bar stool republicanism' and popularity of nationalist songs in the bars where the poor drink, to the widespread and passionate support for Glasgow Celtic Football Club among the poor and disenfranchised. An instinctive nationalism and a strong sense of identity for their own community is the real political expression of the urban poor in Dublin. The idea that the loyalist paramilitaries could come and march through their city, by the GPO - ground zero of Irish republicanism - was sufficiently provocative to enrage these people on a much deeper level than any of the habitual attacks on their living conditions or economic lives could possibly do. They are used to being at the bottom, to being shat upon by the rest of society, but their nationalism and sense of community identity is one thing that gives them pride in themselves - allowing the loyalists to march through their city and to disrespect their identity would be a full frontal assault on their pride and pride is all they have.

Erm it is a little bit OTT but that seems pretty normal for indymedia...

What Dublin Riots? I've never heard of them!

More here NB Haven't read it so don't know how neutral it is...

Terrible so it was - miniature wheelbarrows being thrown at eminent physicists and all sorts.

<3 onimo

I can't find the really good ones but I like this one:

http://www.spoilt.ie/images/blog/dublin_riots.jpg

did the english orchesate the dublin riots.

Yes! Thank you, that's been really getting to me. It is very much Pinkmoose's thing though to have badly spelled questions. They are normally fun so can't really hold it against him...

Ah, OK, because you said it would. Just checking. I mean, you did say "Maybe the problem would disappear if points were taken off clubs where this happens", yes?

I will credit you with having noticed that sectarianism, bigotry and racism exist outside of football stadia, but I was asking for the benefit of anyone still reading this pish that's going the same way as "Artur Boruc shouldn't bless himself in front of bigots" on the SPL thread. Again, relating to your comment that threatening to dock Rangers points would stop all this.

So what difference would docking points for singing offensive songs do to eradicate the violence and intolerance that goes on elsewhere? You don't think there would be a knock-on effect as Rangers are docked points for what their own supporters trust see as a light-hearted bit of banter? (http://www.rangerssupporterstrust.co.uk/rstsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=228&Itemid=1)

xposts, btw

I think all of Scotland should be banned until they know better.

Don't blame us, it's the bloody Irish who caused all the problems

I'm guessing it's pure coincidence that the three Celtic staff involved in violent incidents in their spare time over last few months are the two Irish internationalists and Neil Lennon, obviously.

However, no fucking wonder Celtic are struggling to distance themselves from this when a simple thread about how Rangers fans' conduct has been called into question doesn't take very long to have people trying to drag Celtic into it as well, when I have yet to see anything on this thread showing Celtic being as downright offensive as the Rangers fans have been over the last couple of years.

x-post
we you know i wasn't talking in general, i just meant that the rangers fans might not sing these songs at stadiums if points were docked.

However, no fucking wonder Celtic are struggling to distance themselves from this when a simple thread about how Rangers fans' conduct has been called into question doesn't take very long to have people trying to drag Celtic into it as well, when I have yet to see anything on this thread showing Celtic being as downright offensive as the Rangers fans have been over the last couple of years.

why should we be trying to deduce who has been more offensive?

Don't blame us, it's the bloody Irish who caused all the problems

Or was it the English as per the original question. My God people, we have come the full circle!

Kerr, that will never work! (xpost)

Well at least Rangers would be docked points so Accies can qualify for champions league instead ;)

I do not understand. What is Accies?

Seriously though, has there ever been an effort to dock points like that in the past? Was it successful?

As the token Hibs fan on the board, to answer the question a couple of hours ago I am a Protestant and Edinburgh geography probably plays a bigger factor than religion as to which side you support.

Not only Rangers would have to be docked points, there a few other clubs whose fans think it spiffing fun to sing sectarian ditties when playing Celtic

Sorry, I don't have some sort of translator that makes your nebulous points clearer for me and allows me to read some hidden meaning into what seem to be straightfoward statements (xposts to Pfunkboy)

xpost to LG. the thread is about Rangers being offensive. That was the story. It had fuck all to do with Celtic, and hasn't really succeeded if the aim of some people on this thread is now to try and make it so.

Seriously though, has there ever been an effort to dock points like that in the past?

Don't be daft, it's Scotland we're talking about

Seriously though, it might work, but obviously other things would have to happen too. But something has to be done. It's not just celtic and rangers who have these problems, and just maybe if teams were docked points the clubs themselves might do something, and then the fans wont tolerate it as "harmless tradition".
Of course that wont do anything about the cause. It wont stop people having the prejudices in the 1st place. Which is something that the clubs cant be held responsible for.
x-posts

Don't scare me like that, Ailsa -- there's more than one LG here, you know.

Again: Ban Scotland. It is the only way that sectarianism and racism can be removed from modern society!

I have met Aldo. Had I known he was a protestant I wouldn't have let him sing that song at me. I thought you were being ironic about me going home after getting chips ;_;

Of course that wont do anything about the cause. It wont stop people having the prejudices in the 1st place. Which is something that the clubs cant be held responsible for.

This is sadly true. I like the idea of the teams being punished and forcing their fans to behave though!

The thread is about the English orchestrating the potato famine.

This hasn't even made the press until someone who isn't Scottish took offence at a slur on their country of birth. xposts

Sorry Laurel!

xpost, don't be so disingenuous. it was revived to be about something else.

The thread is about the English orchestrating the potato famine.

Damn them and their inhuman need for background music to a nation's suffering :(

well there was no potato famine c/d thread.
x-post

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/AskNewQuestionControllerServlet?boardid=40

Potato Famine CLASSIC OR SPUD

Ha ha ha haaaa

Shame on you both btw.

Actually the three of you now!

hang on, what? shame on who for what?

I, for one, am ashamed of my terrible pun

http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/4552/scotlandsshameaq3ji8.jpg (couldn't resist)

I don't really wanna get into this, just to add that, the other Irish people are the only ones who I can really agree with on this thread. And I think that says something. Maybe people put a face on things for foreigners or whatever.

hang on, what? shame on who for what?

The new question gag!

I have seen that picture before. I feel sorry for the poor bugger in the white top. God knows what he's done to bring a hate-filled place like Scotland shame...

Tom D. There is much more to be ashamed of. So much more...

Why's there a photo of Metro v DC United on an SPL thread?

Oh hang on

What? That wasn't even meant to be a gag. xposts

Oh right. I didn't pick up on that. Sorry.

Ah, OK, it does like I'm suggesting "go right ahead with potato famine c/d", doesn't it? I wasn't, I was just wondering why it didn't get its own thread, or go on the SPL thread, or the sectarianism in Scottish football thread, rather than a loaded political thread.

well I didn't really want to post it on the SPL football thread. Too late now to give it a thread of it's own.
Anyway it's not like other threads don't get revived for a lightly OT reason or indeed get derailed anyway.

Classic or Spud is Classic.

I like what Local Garda said re. something like 'people looking for something to fight about' or something. I can't remember now the exact words, don't you see, that the Garda used. He's a terrible man entirely for using the words, in the writing, there.

Sure, an otterwise what would he write at all?

'people looking for something to fight about'

Not a bad description of the Irish and the Scots

Tom D, for that slur we fight.

When I was in Ethiopia, I was struck by the fact that although their country has had lots of famines, the locals do not go on about them all the time. Maybe this is a lesson that we Irish could take onboard about the one famine we had ages ago.

you had more than one

When I was in Ethiopia, I was struck by the fact that although their country has had lots of famines, the locals do not go on about them all the time. Maybe this is a lesson that we Irish could take onboard about the one famine we had ages ago.

― The Real Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 16 September 2008 22:29 (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

They're very eloquent as well.

Naive defenders, though.

Made up for with great athleticism.

Tremendous music as well, so much more rhythm than that so-called "indie" dreck you hear in the charts these days.

They play with a smile on their faces!

And it's great to watch them on this, the biggest stage the world has to offer. Wouldn't fancy their chances on a wet Tuesday away to Burnley though.

will ye have a clusterfuck?

Everyone should just become Thistle fans.

Of course, I'm also a Bolton fan, and when I saw an exhibition between them and Hibs, the Wanderers fans were pretty horrible with the sectarian crap. That said, isn't being a Bolton fan enough of a punishment?

LOL U R ALL MORANS

will ye have a brane?

will ye ever pipe down?

irish people are the most disgusting savages on earth imo

they took many a beating, but twas all in good fun

I once tried finding that yonks ago with no joy blueski :(

Seriously though I don't think they orchestrated it, I don't think they did much (if anything really) to alleviate it. I don't know that the Ethipoian famines are really comparable. Not out of snobbery but out of the fact that the world did little to help the Irish and it wasn't seen as a humanitarian crisis of any great magnitude in the UK.

Some Cherokee Indians sent over some money for us during the Famine, let us not forget that.

I gather that during the 1840s, there were people starving all over Europe, though this was more pronounced in Ireland than elsewhere because of having most of the population eating nothing but potatoes they grew themselves. This was not so comnon in other European countries.

I remember one conversation about the Famine, and my correspondent pointed out that while people tend to blame the Brits for it, to at least some extent, but the death toll can more correctly be led at the feet of free market economics.

those free-market economics are a TERRIBLE MAN!

According to Star Trek, we win...

Funnily enough I think the blog I subscribe to that I got that from must be following ILX. Some of the links can be incredibly well timed!

roll on 2024!

A CYBORG NATION ONCE AGAIN!

Techy ár Lá!!!

oh dear lord

Religion will have no place in our robot world.

I'm hungry and there are no hob nobs left. DAMN YOU ENGERLAND!

The Denny’s restaurant chain had been enjoying a wave of positive publicity after its most recent offer of free breakfasts, made in commercials that ran during the Super Bowl on Feb. 7. But a subsequent spot has earned the wrath of many consumers.

The spot promoted another offer: to recognize the 150th anniversary of the end of the Irish famine, Denny’s would serve French fries and pancakes in all-you-can-eat portions.

Needless to say, the idea that a tragedy like starvation could serve as fodder for a restaurant chain’s ad campaign did not sit well with consumers of Irish descent — or of other ancestries.

The spot began circulating through social media outlets like Facebook, which meant that any complaints it would generate would be amplified considerably, as other recent flaps over the contentious contents of commercials have demonstrated.

Among those criticizing Denny’s was the Ancient Order of Hibernians and the Irish news media.

After the complaints rolled in, Denny’s stopped running the spot, as of Tuesday, and issued a statement, which was provided to a reporter who requested it from a Denny’s public relations representative.

“Denny’s has a history of using humor in its television advertising,” the statement began. “It is certainly not the intention of the company to offend anyone or any group, and we apologize if this spot has in any way.”

The apology did little to mollify those who had complained about the spot, which was created by Goodby, Silverstein & Partners, part of the Omnicom Group. Some commented in the social media that Denny’s ought to make donations, on behalf of the Irish community, to organizations that fight hunger.

this is why we do things like this to the brits-

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23812869-travellers-responsible-for-half-the-countrys-caravan-thefts-to-be-sentenced.do

Where the fuck did they hide four hundred caravans?

Needless to say, the idea that a tragedy like starvation could serve as fodder for a restaurant chain’s ad campaign did not sit well with consumers of Irish descent

Craic failure

xp not over here, tbh.

lol starvation

^ apt description of this thread

hey they're celebrating the end of the famine, that's a good thing right tho?

Really, the marketing team at Spudulike is just not working hard enough

THERE WERE FOUR BOATS OF BUTTER A DAY LEAVING CORK HARBOUR etc etc.

I mean, think of the national obesity problems they were saving us from.

did it work?

are there denny's in the uk?

Not that I know of

my question is does denny's really expect that americans even know what the irish potato famine is, hell most of us don't know the presidents between george washington and george w. bush

I thought you were all obsessed with Ireland and being Irish over there

only on march 17th

and when we're watching the boondock saints, our national movie

i think most people know about it but don't know when it happened, they all think their family came over during the famine

And it was all the fault of those English

tbh i didn't know it ended as late as 1860

but i obviously blame the english for whatever happened regardless

The Great Famine (Irish: an Gorta Mór, IPA: [ənˠ ˈɡɔɾˠtˠə ˈmˠoːɾˠ], the Great Hunger[1]; an Drochshaol, [ənˠ ˈdˠɾɔxˌhiːlˠ], the Bad Life) was a period of mass starvation, disease and emigration in Ireland between 1845 and 1852[2] during which the island's population dropped by 20 to 25 percent.[3] Approximately one million people died and a million more emigrated from Ireland.

they all think their family came over during the famine

there's probably an big element of truth to that though.

Yes, by 1860, it wasn't famine it was just peckishness

they all think their family came over during the famine

The mathematics don't work out though

catholic progeny defies maths, logic and basic economics, film at 11

and to this day there is the mi5 concoted tayto famine suffered by second gen irish immigrants in the uk

"An estimated total of 36,278,332 Americans — over 11.9% of total population—reported some Irish ancestry in the 2008 American Community Survey."

So why is the population of Ireland only 6+ million?

concocted, we think (xp)

some irish ancestry = very little in many instances

Indeed

eh, tom- if you have one irish grandparent, and want to use that as 'ancestry' (and they all seem to) then 1 million emigrants in or around 1840-1870 will definitely do the trick for 36m people today?

those Irish breed like rabbits I hear

breed like rabbits, shag like tigers imo

Drink like fish

http://www.gradeamathhelp.com/images/factor-tree.jpg

by the way guys, I'm also part irish

Aren't we all

fib o'nací himself first essayed his theories on a trip to roscommon

i'm part irish btw

and the other parts?

Native American

lol

That'll be the O'Maha tribe.

Sean-ee

Cher O'Kee

navan ho nation

Ir O'Quois

Connemaranche

Co. Manchee

Algon Quinn

LOL

Drum Cree Nation

seminoleary

damn i picked the wrong time to go to lunch (spuds were delicious btw)

A very short history lesson for those who know little or nothing about the Great Hunger, aka potato famine:

The immediate cause of the famine was a plant disease, which caused the potatos to rot very rapidly, both in the ground and in storage. The English, of course, did not invent this disease or deliberately inflict it on the Irish.

Instead, what the English inflicted on the Irish was an oppressive system where vast tracts of agricultural land were owned by aristocrats who did not live in Ireland, and whose income was derived from the rents on these lands, or the produce of their estates -- the notorious "absentee landlords". These people didn't care a flip about the Irish, but cared intensely about their incomes.

Therefore, huge quantities of food that was grown in Ireland, but not affected by the potato rot, such as grains, milk and livestock, were exported out of the country when the Irish were dying in the millions. Families dying of hunger were dunned for rent money to support these people, then evicted from their homes when they failed to pay, literally eating grass by the roadsides out of desperation, and leaving corpses with green-stained mouths.

As a result, the Irish peasantry of that era became even more savagely bitter toward the English aristocracy than usual, who they saw as capable of feeding the nation, but cruelly indifferent to, or even taunting them in, their massive suffering.

Peel wasn't great but was certainly not nearly as bad Lord John Russell

Efforts were made to help. They were grossly insufficient to address the scope of the famine. And the Irish weren't really in a mood to make fine distinctions between malice and well-meaning incompetance.

will ye have a diaspora?

Look I don't even want a major argument about this but what I'm trying to say is that it's not a matter of choosing to support Celtic or not, it's like the second national side.

Most of us who support actual Irish football teams - ones that play in the League of Ireland -detest Celtic and their fans on this Island: and plenty of Irish League supporters feel the same about Rangers fans.

Things you learn from Wikipedia:

With an ancestor emigrant from the Great Famine, Barack Obama is about as Irish as Americans come. He is also English, apparently, having a late 18th Century Welsh ancestor.

A whole pile of the non-Great Hunger immigrants (in fact, a very large chunk of them) are not only not Irish, but have a severe risk of not even being British (such as Hugenots shipped to Ireland for the Ulster Plantation). Not only are they from Ulster, they were on the Government side and fought on the side of the King against Cromwell. So not so much Tricolour, or green, as Orange. Which means potentially some of the NORAID people were funding the wrong side...

NORAID types were catholics of first or second generation usually

yeah i feel like people doing that kind of stuff would know enough about their family not to make that kind of mistake. i've never thought about that though. noraid-ers have to be a pretty tiny minority of irish americans anyway.

never thought about the true heritage of people claiming irishness, i mean

He is also English, apparently, having a late 18th Century Welsh ancestor

Uh, what?

Most of the Jamaicans I know have Irish or Scottish surnames; it's not difficult to work out why that might be.

To the best of my current knowledge, my 'Irish' ancestors were Highland Scots who made a pit-stop in Fermanagh long enough to shag around/pick up a surname and emigrated to Canada in the late 18th century, well in advance of the potato famine. The men were all doctors. My grandfather on that side would get annoyed if people assumed he was Catholic because the surname is rather obviously Irish.

Certainly lots of Scots in the West Indies, don't know about Irish, unless they're from Ulster. "Scots-Irish" were mostly Lowland Scots.

e is also English, apparently, having a late 18th Century Welsh ancestor

Uh, what?

― Tom D (Tom D.), Thursday, 11 March 2010 09:47 (1 hour ago) Bookmark

Quite, and exactly the way to anger any Welshman!

LOL, but Dunham (Obama's maternal family) is an English name.

I'm having to look into this side of my family for a project and everything I'm finding is atypical for even Irish Protestants. I'm guessing this family were pretty much secular; my grandfather identified as Anglican if he could be bothered - Sundays were for drinking at brunch.

Ignoring religion altogether was one way to make yrself REALLY unpopular with both sides, I'd imagine.

He is also English, apparently, having a late 18th Century Welsh ancestor

Tho, I suppose if you believe the theory that the majority of the "English" aren't Anglo-Saxon but "British" then this works

Results 1 - 10 of about 150,000 for there's no such thing as a black welshman. (0.20 seconds)

d-mac, I'm assuming that's why they went to Canada, scalpels in hand. My grandfather (born just over the US border, google Lake of the Woods) was an only child and really disliked talking about this background (we think he was cross with himself for not becoming an MD) and had tons of relatives beyond his immediate family but I know nothing about them. I've also tried to conduct a thorough hillbilly audit of my grandmother's peeps but it's a redneck-free Huguenot/DAR fiesta.

The Obama English/Welsh thing is how Wikipedia phrase it, essentially, and not at all how I would put it.

obama cant be welsh his last name isnt jones

or chlamydia

chlamydia is a welsh christian name, duh

secret welshman

Dunham is the Irish side of his mother's family, not the English/Welsh side. Through her mother, Madelyn Payne:

Her most recent native European ancestor was her great-great grandfather, Robert Perry, who was born in Anglesey, Wales in 1786 and whose father, Henry Perry, first settler of Radnor, Ohio in 1803. Robert Perry's wife, Sarah Hoskins, was also born in Wales and immigrated to Delaware County, Ohio as a young child.

1786? Very Welsh then.

http://irishpost.co.uk/itv-presenter-forced-to-apologise-after-irish-famine-joke-on-air/

The famine's over, it's time to go home.

oh the banter

:-(

Unpick that one, mind!

But did we get this sorted?

Will def have to go down as 'in progress' im afraid

iirc the english (british) created the conditions in which the famine would occur, were aware that there was a very good chance of occurring, did nothing to prevent it, and subsequently nothing to ameliorate it.

but is that genocide or not? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it was a case of it being profitable and easy to set the conditions in place, expedient to ignore the warnings at the outset and it was a sufficiently expendable population on which to experiment once solutions were attempted.

Im not sure that they cared enough for it to be genocide, if that matters