If you could pack up and move your whole life, where would you go?

think of all the things that keep you where you are. maybe you already found your place. but if you didn't have the things you love (family, friends) and loathe (work, loans, unhappy obligations) keeping you where you are, where would you go?

*bonus question for those who like a little more direction: what if your main goal was to live in an inspiring place to paint, to be around painters, and to spend as little money as possible?

probably northern vermont or somewhere in the upper midwest? or much of canada is basically the same as these geographically if immigration is allowed in this hypothetical but i wouldn't want to deal with that personally. anywhere with a cooler climate and a lot of forest.

i've already been thinking about this a bit recently since i've suddenly found myself in this situation. other than the friends part, i have a few of those here but nothing else and it's an expensive place to live

what is it about northern vermont? i've never visited the NE beyond NY/Boston, though a crew of my old friends migrated to maine a long time ago and seem to be living in some kind of nice dream (from my distant view)

also, where is the upper midwest, to you?

everywhere sucks, go inside yourself.

that being said costa rica.

It would depend on what type of painting I wanted to focus on tbh. If I was focused on being a painter in the "art world," I would probably go to upstate NY, where a lot of art world activity is moving / exists and is still fairly inexpensive. ... Because in terms of painting and art (in America) ... NYC is still the center of the art world.

LA is another option ... cheaper than NYC but you'd have to go a ways out before you get to an inexpensive place to live, and Southern California is way harder to get around without a car, as opposed to the Northeast, so your budget would include maintenance of a vehicle. Then there's the issue of studio space ... due to the fact that California has earthquakes and a legal weed industry that has driven up the cost of previously inexpensive industrial buildings where artists historically have found cheap studio space, studio space is harder to come by / more expensive. The desert (Joshua Tree-ish) is probably the least expensive area in SoCal where there is art activity. Also if you aren't that vested in being part of the "art world" and you are into doing desert-y landscape type stuff or other figurative (or semi-abstract) painting that relates to the region, that might be a place to go. If that isn't something you are into, or feel like you wouldn't "get into" if you lived there ... then maybe not the best place.

There's also the weather. Do you prefer snow, freezing and humid, or lots of sun, and very hot and dry?

Have come around in the last 5 or so years that I want to live in the desert, ideally like Albuquerque or similar

too many unbreakable connections and deep roots here to move away now

i will go to the desert

i've never lived in one, but had a transformative first trip to (through, even, just through) new mexico a long time ago. i loved the desert in utah, some of the best weeks of my life. plus i've never lived west of Columbia, MO. time to head west

Takayama, Japan. Without a moment's hesitation.

I could move to the Porridgeville Model Village in West Shitthorpe and my life would still be no more, no less a fresh nightmare from hell, every single day!

xp what is takayama like?

xposts

sarahell my desert musing was in response to you and eric h's mentions of it, but thanks for the rest of your post as well! i never hear anyone else saying this, which probably means it's frowned upon, but i would like to be the best artist i can be and don't really have much interest in the "art world". i am much more into having friends and people i know who paint or make other kinds of art, and hearing what they have to say and what they think, what they're making. in other words, i guess, community (a very small one - even just 2-3 people is huge in my life) is much more important to me than opportunities to infiltrate the art world

there definitely is a community of cool people and artists down near Joshua Tree ... you can hang with Shakey Mo's brother lol. A handful of friends of mine got together and bought a bit of land down there and they have an annual music festival and art installations in a place called Wonder Valley. I haven't been there, but it looks cool.

In the States, the west half of OR or northern NM. If I'm talking ANYWHERE-anywhere, Netherlands, or Ireland, or blown out of an airlock in deep space.

i forgot to make my point - much more important to me than the art world is how inspiring the surrounding landscape and weather and people are

(landscape very much including buildings and urban life as well as the rest)

I've done a few major uproots: central Indiana to Phoenix, Phoenix to Seattle, Seattle to eastern WA and back, Seattle to northern CA and back. Have thought a lot about Costa Rica, and that could still happen, but the greater Seattle area is well suited to me and my current needs/wants.

the Bosch thread keeps reminding me how much I envy his house ... though I would also want a pool or a lake or a creek or be close to the ocean. ... As a native (6th gen) Californian, I think about Oregon, esp. now and through, say, mid-October, but I am self-conscious about how much Oregon hates Californian ex-pats.

I also think about moving to LA ... because so many of my friends have moved there. ...

I think about moving to the humble suburb of El Cerrito so I could have a yard but still be close to where I currently live, and have uncanny valley experiences due to the fact that a lot of El Cerrito looks like the dumb town where I grew up.

I recently thought about moving to lol Berkeley ... big move, 3 miles. The South Berkeley farmer's market is pretty nice.

what is it about northern vermont? i've never visited the NE beyond NY/Boston, though a crew of my old friends migrated to maine a long time ago and seem to be living in some kind of nice dream (from my distant view)

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Sunday, May 29, 2022 12:18 PM (forty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i have family ties to burlington vt area, spent a lot of time up there as a kid. its nice and isn't going to become unbearably hot or sink into the ocean in the next 30 years

^^ good criteria!

while it is likely I will be dead in 30 years, the thought of holding onto my apartment, which would then be "ocean-front property" has its appeal

I am self-conscious about how much Oregon hates Californian ex-pats.

In a way I'm glad to hear this, because it means that the publicity generated around this issue decades ago still resonates in CA. But realistically, since then OR has absorbed so many Californian ex-pats and other newcomers that our population has doubled and the only places clinging to that old animosity are places that have stayed static all this time, mostly the tiny isolated towns in Eastern Oregon that barely survive one year to the next.

This thread is well-timed cuz I'm planning to sublet my place in SF (same apt I've been in for 12 years) and go to NYC for a few months. What can I say, I love ridiculously expensive cities.

No reason I can't do this, still terrified though.

"everywhere sucks, go inside yourself."

Might've been said jokingly but doing the inner work is probably as important, otherwise you are just moving the misery around.

Ten years ago I would have said, money and 'fucking the planet up' permitting, houses for different parts of the year and moving, moving: New Zealand, Reykjavik and, maybe eastern Malaysia. Now I'd happily settle in the south island of NZ. Probably Nelson but west coast would be lovely as well.

no matter where you go, there you are

It's a slogan I know but I basically believe it -- nothing much about your existence is going to change as a result of changing your physical location

You live alone in a town called your skull

I had a chance to hang out with some successful professional artists (painters ) about 3 years ago at a social event in Bethnal Green … It was an under-populated event with generous sponsorship and much free alcohol. It was was eye-opening to me just how hard-nosed and cynical artists are. They talked shop: including swapping details of summer teaching events, which was best paid and most prestigious. And also gossiping about a mutual acquaintance: “It’s tragic. He’s got divorced and he’s got a new girlfriend, a flat at the Barbican and a sports car. He’s so tight that he invited me over to sort out his stereo - and it was unbelievable : his vinyl records were ancient heavy metal”.

In short: would not want to hang with painters.

Somewhere in the south of France. Nice would be nice, or maybe Montpelier. I might actually do this in a few year's time, once my son's through school.

i moved around a fair bit in my twenties. it was cool, and even though i still lived alone in my skull, for a while i was able to say 'wow, i'm in alaska!' and that actually went a fair way

but i also had friends in the places i'd moved, and worked in situations with a lot of people my age (bookstores!)

it's pretty hard to make friends as a middle-aged person, so if you move someplace new where you don't know anyone, i think you have to have a plan to be really outgoing and ready to throw yourself into strange situations. and if you're not ready to do that, you're better off being someplace where you already have friends

that said, i would totally move to canada (well, maybe not saskatchewan) if i could navigate the job/immigration thing

I have dreams of living on a remote Scottish island, writing next to a fire as storms whip up the sea. But I don't have any money or skills, can't drive, and lack of accessible amenities would screw me over majorly. I also can't speak any other languages well enough to move to anywhere that isn't English-speaking (I had a similar dream about moving to an isolated fjord in Norway).

I moved to be where I am, so I'm happy with the city I live in, but rural Italy has its appeals, or maybe the Amalfi coast. Assuming money/work is no object in this vision.

New Zealand

been saying that for the last five years

Probably would move to Amsterdam or Brussels - places that have established and long-standing culture, but also where you feel more easily connected to the rest of Europe.

The trouble with London/England is that it feels too disconnected from anywhere else and its depressing and cynical political culture seems overbearing and inescapable.

There are a number of places in Europe I could happily move to tomorrow, if it were feasible for the family. Planning to leave the UK as soon as I can, even if that's 15 years, too scared of gun violence/ healthcare system to ever consider moving to the US, Asia was good to me but even after a decade it wasn't home.

My primary criteria would be climate (cool but no brutal winters), on the coast, lots of green.

New Zealand, Ireland, parts of France and Italy would probably top the list. Don't really care about Major Cities but being relatively close to a city would be nice.

Foggy cliffs would be good, I could spend a lot of quality time staring out into the misty void.

New Orleans or Italy

I’d fuck w NOLA but I bet it’s changing way too fast for me

...it feels too disconnected from anywhere else and its depressing and cynical political culture seems overbearing and inescapable.

― Luna Schlosser

New board description.

I used to think Joshua Tree would be nice (I don't mind the heat) but I was there in November a few years ago and it was cold! And I figured if it's this cold in November this place must have at least 4 months of this cold. Also windy there, which would bug me after a while, I think. I'm in the LA area now, but a smaller city that fairly self-contained (Pasadena) and I really like it.

And before JT I thought the San Luis Obispo area would be great to settle down in, weather and culture-wise, but it's as expensive as LA now.

everywhere desirable in California is expensive now

what if your main goal was to live in an inspiring place to paint, to be around painters, and to spend as little money as possible?

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone),

i forgot to make my point - much more important to me than the art world is how inspiring the surrounding landscape and weather and people are

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Sunday, May 29, 2022 12:58 PM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

(landscape very much including buildings and urban life as well as the rest)

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone),

KM fwiw you remind me v much of a friend who in his middle age took up painting seriously and moved to Houston, Tx and he seems to have found exactly what you're looking for there. Currently living at Elder St. Artists' Lofts

In Houston you absolutely will need a car, or at least a bike/motorcycle.

I feel like I already live in the place I want to in the US, but I’ve fantasized about moving to Canada, Mexico, Sweden (3 friends of mine have recently moved there), Amsterdam, Barcelona, Lisbon, the south of France, and everywhere I’ve ever been in Italy

these fantasies won't come true without a spectacular effort though and I'm not willing to make that

agree with what mookieproof said: "it's pretty hard to make friends as a middle-aged person, so if you move someplace new where you don't know anyone, i think you have to have a plan to be really outgoing and ready to throw yourself into strange situations. and if you're not ready to do that, you're better off being someplace where you already have friends"

also Houston is a godforsaken malarial swamp

Anyway we discussed it years ago and this friend's answer to your question at the time following p much the same criteria was Guanajuato, Mexico

a really interesting city, also nearby are San Miguel de Allende, my favorite place in Mexico and very much an artist's town, León, and Queretéro

Querétaro, sorry

co-sign San Miguel

I went maybe 12 years ago. Lot of expats (US and Canadian, maybe Euro?). Your Spanish doesn’t have to be on point

My best friends moved to San Miguel temporarily in 2019 with their daughter, my goddaughter, so it is a special place to me. I went there just as the pandemic was getting to be big news, in Feb/March 2020, and I remember how everyone out of fear was focused on washing their hands. Little did we know. I got back the day that SF went into lockdown. It seems like a different era now

also remember experiencing The Day of the Dead in San Miguel in the early 90s, in my memory it felt like something from a Buñuel movie

candles and wax flowers (an art form that is fascinating) everywhere, children in strange costumes, parades, marching bands, church bells, paper maché heads, nighttime revelry and total chaos

I want an apartment with air conditioning and Internet access, and someone that comes in to do the cleaning that I can't get myself to do and that my husband can't do any more. I can walk places and get food so I don't have to make myself cook. I go from there to a job with steady starting and ending times where I can sit, drink tea or a soft drink and tap away on a computer. I do something on the side that people enjoy. This is pretty much it, and I doubt it will ever happen at this late date.

If I arranged air conditioning and a cleaner, you could swap lives with me right now.

Painters' circles that I would have liked to hang with:

Paris early 1900s through to 1920s
Chelsea 1920s/30s
Soho (UK) 1950s
Royal College of Art London late 1950s (Hockney, Kitaj, Boty etc)
New York 1960s
Shoreditch 1990s (also wd take opportunity to snap up a fine Spitalfields Hueguenot house to restore and live/work)

Would probably pass on New York 1950s (too much heavy drinking and less interested in the dominant abstract expressionist scene )

xp what is takayama like?

Many XPs to Karl...

When I first visited Japan I was advised to go somewhere more rural along with the big cities, it was our honeymoon and a travel agent helped arrange it and suggested we visit Takayama.

It's in Gifu prefecture which is in the centre of the country, a lot of it is alpine, gets a lot of snow, and is the heart of a lot of historical culture.

We spent two days in Takayama and I've never been so burned to leave a place in my entire life, I've never experienced that before about somewhere and still can't quite explain why, it just seemed like a perfect place to live.

Anyway, we returned a few years later and made the town our base for a few days while we explored the surrounding area and it really one of my favourite places in the world.

lmfao at so many of you choosing somewhere inside the confirmed dystopia that is the USA

Eh, if you don't/aren't (insert qualifier here), there are plenty of places in the US where you'd probably be able to live quite pleasantly as you ride out the heat death of this great nation.

I liked Brussels a lot on a brief visit, it seemed like a very livable city, interesting and with a lot of green space and enough room even for the tourists. And I could happily drink Cantillon Kriek every day until I die of cyanide poisoning.

I have friends in Rouen, loved my time there and would love to go back, though the town itself is not particularly interesting.

I liked Bristol a lot, again on a very short visit.

Hard to argue with New Zealand, though. I've been there only once, when I was seven, so my memories are very incomplete and biased, but it really seemed like heaven.

aomewhere that was not actively facilitating the replication of the novel coronavirus

My wife and I have talked about this a lot. We're at 4 years out from both kids being out of high school, which will remove the most urgent need for us to be in East Tennessee. Don't want to move a million miles away from them either (tho obv I have no real idea where they'll end up). In the last year or so we've started talking more seriously. We travel together a lot and we always joke that we want to move to wherever was the last place we visited. But after some real consideration (Chicago -- too cold, Oaxaca -- too far), a trip to New Orleans in February settled it. It's always been one of our favorite places, my wife lived there for a few years, I have family from there and have always loved it. I agree with the above statement that there are a lot of forces at work on it, definitely not all positive, but there's still a strong New Orleans culture that's very real and ground-level. And it's just not like anywhere else in America (or anywhere — it's always seemed like a bit of a mythological port city to me). Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

So that's our current thinking. We have some time to work out the logistics.

i have a few different good friends from the old days who also made their way to new orleans and never left. i've only been a few times, but it's the american city that is the least american and will always hold a place of honor because of that

so many of you choosing somewhere inside the confirmed dystopia that is the USA

governance in the USA is very badly broken and in many visible ways we're firmly on the path of conversion to a fascist state, without many remaining exits from that path. if it ever looks like the concentration camps for the 'internal enemies of the state' were immanent, I think my refuge of choice would be Ireland, maybe Galway, Limerick or a smaller satellite town near these. but, as I said, my roots in Oregon are very deep. only a refugee situation is likely to dislodge me.

We have Canadian passports so were thinking of somewhere boring but pretty in BC, like Nelson

ha i love how many people have said nz. i would also say nz

i would also move to berlin instantly if i could, the week i spent there was one of the best of my life

there are so many places i would like to go. i would like to be able to speak the language, though, at least to a level where i can get by. i have been duolingoing spanish so hard the last few months

i have been talking about the fucking los zapatos verdes for so long it's starting to materialize in my dreams

i think one of my big unresolved desires is that i desire to move to very remote place with zero people and live in a small cabin. i already did it last year for a few weeks, it was one of the best experiences of my life. but when i did that, there was a guy who owned the place who would stop by every week or so to make sure that i hadn't died, and when the water pump broke, he was everything to me. i'm worried about moving to the middle of nowhere with nothing but an ancient time-life How to Fix your Disappointing House book, following the instructions and the thing still being broken.

so until i learn how to avoid dying from exposure and incompetence when i'm in the wilderness, i should probably stay near a supermarket

I often consider moving back home to New Orleans but I'm not quite ready. I visited over the holidays and it was a pretty grim scene, as I had a hard time distinguishing between what was post-Ida destruction and what was just standard neglect and deterioration (of the city and my family). If you're moving from somewhere rural/red then you're probably already inured to covidiocy/trumpism but otherwise it can be a very frustrating experience. I still miss the place dearly. If anyone does plan on moving there and is looking to get a handle on the city's corrupt politics I'd recommend following @skooks on twitter.

It's a slogan I know but I basically believe it -- nothing much about your existence is going to change as a result of changing your physical location

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Sunday, May 29, 2022 12:43 PM (yesterday)

uhhhh ... I'm going to assume that this was meant in the context of Karl (a cis-white dude) wanting to move somewhere and not really a universal "your," where other people would experience significant changes related to racism, homophobia, transphobia, the right to get an abortion, general acceptance and tolerance of "otherness" ... and have moved for those reasons?

Oh yeah, I know just enough about New Orleans to expect dysfunction, poverty, racism, violence. On the other hand we hear gunshots in our Knoxville neighborhood all the time and I’m surrounded by check-cashing places and opiate addicts living by the creeks, so … I have a reasonable tolerance for urban dystopia. But New Orleans also has a lot to counter all of that.

KM you could move to Fairbanks and live in a cabin that feels remote but is actually within a twenty-minute drive to a supermarket.

I’ve wanted to move to New Orleans since my first visit in 1988, but I realize moving to a place I’ve only
visited for a week at a time (albeit many, many times) is probably a pipe dream. I’d like at least spend a few months/half a year there to start. But yeah, the decay mixed with the gentrification both give me pause. Plus, my wife’s dream move is the north shore of Minnesota, so we’re definitely at odds there!

that does sound intriguing, lily! and i have often dreamed of living in a really cold place, for a while. but honestly i think i would like to move somewhere that is not cold, for once. i'm in STL now, the warmest place i've lived in a while, and it was nice when the snow came and everyone was freaking out about it, and i thought it was a mild and disappointing snow.

moving to warmer climes gives you a temporary boost of wellbeing compared to where you recently lived. you get to take your coat off a month before anyone else, it's amazing. it's similar in some respects to moving from a place with a high cost of living to one with a relatively low one. your monopoly money from the previous city is worth more, at this other one.

in other words, the trick might be to start at the coldest, most expensive place in the world, and as you live, gradually slide down to drinking water on the equator

I hope I’m wrong but I keep waiting for like Disney to swoop in and just buy the entire Quarter and turn it into an Epcot version, mouse ear silhouettes everywhere. The real estate prices are way out of wack with average salaries. And the state/ local politics there are beyond fucked. But even so, if I thought my gf could stand a summer there it would be at the top of my list in the US.

xp idk moving from somewhere where it was on average 90 degrees every day all summer (no air conditioning) to somewhere where it was on average 70 degrees ... the ability to wear a sweater or ... any clothing for that matter and not be uncomfortably hot and sweaty and gross ... that was a great boost of well-being

lmfao at so many of you choosing somewhere inside the confirmed dystopia that is the USA

it might be shocking to you but there aren't many places left to live outside the US that aren't headed towards dystopia either. and leaving the country is also massively expensive.

idk maybe could we keep 'destination shaming' out of the thread

i think some of us Americans are just being practical in terms of relocation costs and "would we legally be allowed to be residents and work there" ... I could totally fantasize about chilling on a gorgeous beach eating & drinking dope-ass food in the South of France, but ... the French government would probably deport my American ass after a short while idk

Bulgaria has nice beaches and also cats ... I know a few words and phrases of Bulgarian

idk maybe could we keep 'destination shaming' out of the thread

eh idk i've been trapped in my current apartment for a while now bc i can't afford to move down the street let alone to another country

yeah of course it is still an expense, we are talking about "if..." here. on a couple of occasions I have found a job in another country in which there was free accommodation and they paid for the plane ticket, not sure if that's still a thing though.

I think the thread should go in whatever direction it takes, but in my op I was trying to include the idea of imagining where we would pick up and move if practical concerns weren’t a limitation. But I get how that’s not a very fruitful topic, since it’s just basically an invitation to share your dream, and that can go badly

is it also that weird to imagine that people tend to gravitate towards the familiar rather than dealing w/ potential culture shock?

I said New Zealand but I could have just as easily said East Atlanta, which is bohemian.

it isn't as if every square inch of America is a hellhole. even if we are all living in Hell here right now, collectively speaking.

not to mention this is imago's second Kool-Aid Man intrusion of "lol yanks" in recent weeks and i'm not amused

the question was obviously 'if money/family/etc is no object'

if you want to stay in the US for cultural or sentimental reasons, fine

I don't have a college degree, from what I've gathered over the years most of the 'developed world' wouldn't even let me in unless I win the lottery and get an investor visa or something. (Winning the lottery, of course, removes like 95% of the reasons every square inch of America IS arguably a hellhole.)

moving to warmer climes gives you a temporary boost of wellbeing

Wherever we live, warmer climes are likely coming to us in our lifetimes... might not be conducive to our well-being in the end, though.

That is as it should be. The whole clime-switching economy depends on other people seeking colder climes

the question was obviously 'if money/family/etc is no object'

i think it comes down to your definition of "etc" ... like, does it include magically getting a visa and/or magically learning to speak the native language very rapidly and/or conquering resentment towards natives of Imperial colonial powers by magic of a charming Mary Poppins-like personality?

It’s also funny that imago is saying this, don’t you live in fucking England? Fuck off.

A simple "Ban LJ" is the traditional response.

KM, I recently spent some time in the Chapel Hill- Raleigh- Durham area and while you might need a car, I know people who don’t, and the art scene is chill, small, but exceptionally weird and friendly. Great music area, too. I loved it.

We have decided that if our house value gets to two times what we paid for it, we will start thinking about selling and moving.

Realistically, we’d probably move somewhere in Maine or Western Mass, tho if we could go anywhere in the US and didn’t have to worry about money, I’d say Westport, California.

If we could move anywhere, I think my sights would be on Prince George, BC— it has lots of trains, abundant natural beauty, a university, and we both have some affection for small cities.

I also would move to Porto in a heartbeat for sort of the opposite reasons I’d move to Prince George.

If money/family/etc were no option I might go with Barcelona. Great weather, culture, pace of life. A hop skip and a jump from a lot of amazing destinations. Easiest language to pick up coming from English. Healthy presence of leftist orgs. Obviously the failing struggle for independence is rough but their cops can't be as bad as here.

My American friend did exactly this and went to Copenhagen. Loves it.

yeah, i have never stepped in europe (beyond iceland) but barcelona would be one of my first stops if i did

xp

The real estate prices are way out of wack with average salaries.

All the AirBnBs in New Orleans, a city with a housing shortage.

Huh, wonder where all the housing went? pic.twitter.com/AEib4nFkip

— Angela ⚡️⚡️⚡️ (@byzplease) April 20, 2022

Easiest language to pick up coming from English

Catalan?

tbh I used to live in Barcelona and could easily see that as the answer to the original question

Xp there ought to be a law

However there will absolutely under no circumstances be a law

Pretty amazing that the hospitality industry didn't have enough lobbying money to strangle Airbnb in the crib.

uhhhh ... I'm going to assume that this was meant in the context of Karl (a cis-white dude) wanting to move somewhere and not really a universal "your," where other people would experience significant changes related to racism, homophobia, transphobia, the right to get an abortion, general acceptance and tolerance of "otherness" ... and have moved for those reasons?

― sarahell, Monday, May 30, 2022 11:39 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

for sure, doesn't apply to somebody seeking asylum in the us, doesn't apply to lots of people, I was more just responding to the vibe of the thread which is mostly "new orleans is cool / vermont has nice mountains" etc. (both of which are of course totally true!)

We have Canadian passports so were thinking of somewhere boring but pretty in BC, like Nelson

NZ is an obvious and attractive option. I know someone who moved there from Canada with zero regrets. (She works in HC)

My other front-of-the-mind option is Uruguay. Climate-wise it sounds ideal (4 seasons, no extremes) and politically/socially it doesn’t seem to suffer a lot of the ills that plague many other Latin American countries.

(I like Canada but I’m growing out of love with it, as many of the things that felt given — a plucky but polite underdog mentality, social democratic government, institutions like the CBC and CanCon regulations [as much as there is to complain about with those, we didn’t know how good we had it] — are clearly being eroded as we subsume ourselves to USAnian culture.

Plus I fuckin hate these endless winters and mayfly-brief summers.)

I moved to NZ from the UK four years ago, also zero regrets.

Barcelona can be lovely, but the beaches were filthy when I was there, and Las Ramblas was like any other big tourist street (think you can say the same about most famous cities.) my friend went there with decent Spanish and tried to use it to communicate with the locals, and that did not go down well at all, he found he was better off just using English.

anyone who has actually left the us - how did you do it? i'm pretty sure i'd have to make more than the 45k a year i make and also not be burned out and unable to handle complex administrative tasks on a day-to-day basis.

New Zealand is really lovely, but it's so damn far from anywhere else...

Melbourne, Australia

or a city in Europe?

i have lived in the U.S. all of my 46 years and if i could leave, i think i would leave - if nothing else, for my kids' sake

this thread is kind of timely. i'm in los angeles for work currently. this place is wild. but it also seems to have, like, everything. i can see why so many people want to move to california, especially if you find a pocket of it that you vibe with

i'm borderline getting tired of canada, as well. i'm scared to make the move to the US, but everyone i know has or is moving to the US, mostly for practical reasons due to canada effing things up and there not being any jobs and the over-educated being severely underpaid. i guess it's business as usual: the feeling that the US is flourishing or at least doing way better job-wise and salary-wise while canada is turning in on itself. i do think at least where i live in canada, i find it suits me better for now, especially socially. the vibe/air is definitely different down here. very interesting

i will be spending more time in seattle and see how that goes

if i'm allowed to dream a little, i've never been to iceland or finland, but i would like to visit to see what it would be like to live there. switzerland is compared to canada a lot, so i would also like to travel there to see what it's really like

Finland:

it's either dark all the time or light all the time
everything just seems to work perfectly
death metal is normcore
even the tiniest apartment has a sauna and you will see everyone you know fully naked
the most popular flavour for any foodstuff is salted licorice
everyone is surprisingly open and friendly, in a quiet reserved sort of way, but all of them carry big knives

lol

New Zealand is really lovely, but it's so damn far from anywhere else...

That's the selling point! On The Beach didn't take a NZ detour IIRC but presumably many of them also got an extra six months to live before the nuclear apocalypse.

I haven't been a lot of places but Portugal seemed like a paradise, Porto especially. I want to spend a month there, which is actually like potentially possible.

Man it’s fucked up that if we were talking a few months ago I would have said Lviv— love it there, absolutely beautiful city with lots of weird stuff hidden around.

the south of france or belgium or hamburg or the italian alps if i could have a one bedroom apartment with a view and working not unpleasant plumbing and heating and not too harsh winters or summers and no environmental disasters lurking and no difficulty washing clothes or finding food or books or music or internet access, occasional travelers, curiosity but not overconcern or meddling or endless politics about the rest of the world, public transportation, art museums, libraries

Avignon seems quite nice, and when I was there in June a few years ago it was pleasantly low on tourists, maybe because it's hidden inside a practically unsolvable circle maze of roads.

Have friends visiting Porto right now — partly scouting it for a possible move. We’re waiting on their report back. We’re not in a hurry to leave the States just yet, but it’s good to think about options.

For the other USA folks who are mostly thinking within the confines of our own special version of 21st century dystopia - be it for economic or cultural/identity reasons - the two primary criteria to me are

- as close to a reliably progressive state govt as possible (obviously recognizing that is a low bar in 2022, i mean this only relative to other states)
- well positioned for the unfolding climate catastrophe

It is probably easier for me to say as someone who has lived most of my life in the northeast US, but I just cannot imagine answering this Q with a place in a red state, even a great one like NOLA. It just feels like things are gonna get a whole lot worse before they get better with state laws clamping down on civil rights and human tolerance and compassion. We are in the upper Pioneer Valley of Western Mass, and while it isn't like some island paradise or something we do feel like we hit the jackpot. Lots of small scale farming, no prominent natural disasters, 4 beautiful seasons. I am fortunate to have the means to live walking distance to a decently fun "downtown" (Northampton) and almost as close to lots of conserved land and natural beauty. But even if we were a bit further away from things and in a less pricy area, we'd have it pretty good. Would welcome your presence KM :)

portugal/porto actually was doable in the past couple of years, portugal had a 'golden visa' program where if you bought property there you could have an EU path to citizenship in something like 5 years. they've now changed it. but i think there's still another type of golden visa where if you live/work in portugal for over half the year each year there's a path to citizenship. it's called the retiree visa or something because it targets retirees who have pensions/social security income.

for me, the answer would be portugal or taiwan (also has a golden visa program) in terms of attainability.

*they've now changed it so that buying property in lisbon/porto/most of the coastal cities doesn't qualify. but you can still buy somewhere like, say, tomar, or guimaraes, beautiful old places inland, and that still might work, i think.

I just cannot imagine answering this Q with a place in a red state, even a great one like NOLA.

Yep, I get this, and it's something my wife and I have talked about a lot. Of course we live in a blue city/red state right now, so on one hand it's a dynamic we're used to but on the other I'm not gonna lie, it's gotten harder in recent years as the GOP supermajority has gotten more and more aggressive. It's just depressing to live governed by so much hate and stupidity.

BUT. I also believe that there's a lot of value in being in red states, to the degree one can stand it, because there are lots of people here who need help and also a lot more progressive people and organizations than it probably appears from the outside. Even in Tennessee and Louisiana, where Trump won about 60 percent of the vote, that's 4 out of 10 people who voted against him. These states are not monoliths by any means.

Also however there's the small matter that my wife was born in Florida and grew up in Tennessee and has no desire to live anywhere substantially colder. Global warming isn't going to happen fast enough to make the Northeast or Chicago an appealing prospect to her.

Still and all, the anti-abortion regimes in all of these states could become a factor in our plans in the next few years. We'll see.

I think about Oregon, esp. now and through, say, mid-October, but I am self-conscious about how much Oregon hates Californian ex-pats.

― sarahell

Look, it's mostly performative. Inter-state rivalry, like how Michiganders and Ohioans are expected to loathe each other. The main reason we hate Californians is because they're the only ones who come here and say "Oh my God, it's so much _cheaper_ to live here!", and promptly go on to drive up real estate prices even further, but it's not like it's something any of y'all have a _choice_ in. Plus, once you've lived here for three weeks you're basically a native and nobody cares.

xp tipsy, those are all good points. I know it isn't all that hard to find bastions of sanity in most corners of this country, and there is something admirable and important about sticking with a place where you have history and connection to do whatever small part you can to decelerate the descent into wherever we're headed. Also, and this goes to what you said about your wife assuming it is more than just the temperature that keeps her attached, I think for many people it is not so easy to just pick up and resettle in a place that doesn't have some resemblance and connection to the culture you grew up in. I do admire those who can do it but I don't think it's a weakness to feel and recognize that pull.

lol rereading my post - looks like i find both staying where you're from and venturing out to points unknown to be worthy of my admiration. Good work, everyone!

I'll also say this for Louisiana vs. Tennessee, it would be some small comfort to me to move to a majority Catholic state from a majority Baptist one. I'm not religious and have a very dim view of the conservative factions of both denominations, but ... at least Catholics have some traditions of education and intellectual pursuit. In Tennessee I've become increasingly aware of the cultural constraints and limitations of the state's hardcore Baptist/evangelical heritage. We had the Scopes trial here for a reason.

"think of all the things that keep you where you are. maybe you already found your place. but if you didn't have the things you love (family, friends) and loathe (work, loans, unhappy obligations) keeping you where you are, where would you go?

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone)"

I did this, in 2017. After the panic and the sobbing subsided on November 9, 2016, the next thing I realized was that I couldn't stay in Indiana. I fucking had to get out before it was too late. Looked at Canada, but it would've taken a lot of time and effort to try to get in there, and at my age it was pretty unlikely they would've taken me. Picked Portland, Oregon. Had a friend there. Everyone who'd been there raved about it. Was lucky to have a substantial inheritance from my dad, so I could afford to give it a shot for six months or so and see if I could make it work out.

I can't see myself ever leaving.

""everywhere sucks, go inside yourself."

Might've been said jokingly but doing the inner work is probably as important, otherwise you are just moving the misery around.

― xyzzzz__"

When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so.

"lmfao at so many of you choosing somewhere inside the confirmed dystopia that is the USA

― imago"

Versus what, LJ? Fucking _England_? Jesus Christ. What England is doing to trans people right now is fucking _genocide_. I finished my transition, bottom surgery and everything, while some of my friends who started at the same time are still on the waiting list for a fucking GIC to get hormones. Gender dysphoria kills, and the TERFs who set policy in the Salo-esque rump state of your appalling genocide-based empire fucking well know it.

You may know this already, since I bring it up in every fucking post I make, but I'm a trans woman. Since I'm also white, the pac NW, Portland, is the best fucking place in the world for me to be. Being here not only gives me the community I need to stay alive, but gave me an environment where I was able to understand who I was and transition in the first place.

Yes, America is a fascist dystopian hellscape. It's also the world's major superpower, a behemoth whose reach and power is, in practical terms, inescapable _anywhere_ in the world. It's _also_ - and people who don't live here maybe don't realize this - functionally not one country. Portland is seeing internal refugees. Trans people are coming from red states, abandoning everything, leaving everything behind, to be here, even if it means living on the streets, because if you're trans, it's becoming increasingly clear that where you live can, in many cases, make the difference between life and death.

When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so.

*mashes Correct button*

"When I told people in Indiana that I was moving, a lot of them disapproved. "You can't run away from your problems," they told me. It turns out those people were, in fact, the problems, I could run away from them, and I was well-advised to do so."

Sure but so many problems aren't to do with where you are at. As you say when you reply to LJ, it's no point moving from the US to the UK if you are transitioning. It's worse, in fact. But as far as my short response goes it depends on what you are working on to improve in your life. If it's the way you relate to people your environment may improve that, but I'd say the work you are doing there is of a different order altogether.

as i said when i was part of a large debate about whether salt or pepper was better - i think both salt and pepper can be important

Running away could also imply you caused chaos and unhappiness where you were at. Running away could be said to be irresponsible, for one, and ultimately a short-term solution to a long-term problem. What will stop you from causing chaos where you go? xp

yes what this thread needs is more posts questioning the thread premise instead of engaging with it

“The unexamined life is not worth living.” -- Socrates

But after some real consideration (Chicago -- too cold, Oaxaca -- too far), a trip to New Orleans in February settled it. It's always been one of our favorite places, my wife lived there for a few years, I have family from there and have always loved it. I agree with the above statement that there are a lot of forces at work on it, definitely not all positive, but there's still a strong New Orleans culture that's very real and ground-level. And it's just not like anywhere else in America (or anywhere — it's always seemed like a bit of a mythological port city to me). Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

So that's our current thinking. We have some time to work out the logistics.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:39 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i have a few different good friends from the old days who also made their way to new orleans and never left. i've only been a few times, but it's the american city that is the least american and will always hold a place of honor because of that

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Monday, May 30, 2022 11:52 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I visited last month and -- well, I never fall in love with cities and fell in love with this one.

not your first time, was it? i imagine you taking weekend trips to NOLA all the time (although i know it's farther than it seems from FL)

First time, hence my hesitation. And, yeah, the proximity is quite attractive: an 87-minute flight to a city with some of the best restaurants and music I've experienced.

NO was transformational for me the one brief time I went. will def be back.

i think most of us agree that new order was legendary, but we can't go back. that doesn't diminish all of those wonderful experiences

i apologize for that joke there, haha

it's the american city that is the least american

Agree with this, it's absolutely the most unique city in the U.S..

In terms of arts stuff, sometimes it seems appealing to move to one of these small towns in Wisconsin that are like tiny blue dots in a sea of red, and have tight-knit artist communities. Thinking of La Crosse, Viroqua, Spring Green, etc. The benefit seems that there's room to create whatever you want, and there's a small but appreciative community there to support the local cafe, music series, arts space, etc when it's the only one. And rent/housing prices are cheaper than in a city. Obviously, there are ton of potential downsides to this situation as well, but I've met some cool people from these places.

xpost

how does it feel to treat me like you do?

xxpost ;)

Also I feel like it's sort of eternally expecting apocalypse, and they're ahead of the rest of us in figuring out how to live with that.

Katrina would like a word with you. So would the ever-disappearing wetlands.

Ignoring all practicalities: the Faroe Islands
Taking practicalities into consideration, a realistic destination: New Zealand

I thought we’d stay in the US once I moved here but since 2016 I’ve been more homesick for nz.

I like living in Ottawa, and the area I'm in right now is pretty ideal - a really great book store and theatre just around the corner, two good university libraries within walking distance, lots of bike trails. Unfortunately I'm going to have to move within the next year, probably, because it's too expensive for me to live here on my own.

If I could go anywhere... it would be interesting to live in a huge city for at least a bit. Tokyo maybe.

Katrina would like a word with you. So would the ever-disappearing wetlands.

Yeah, that's why I said "live with it" rather than prevent or avoid. New Orleans is gonna keep on being New Orleans until eventually there is no more New Orleans. But optimistically, that may not happen in my lifetime.

Running away could also imply you caused chaos and unhappiness where you were at. Running away could be said to be irresponsible, for one, and ultimately a short-term solution to a long-term problem. What will stop you from causing chaos where you go? xp

― xyzzzz__

xyzzz, i am a trans chaos lesbian and gender witch. what stops me from causing chaos where i am is the fucking police. i face several long-term problems, one of which is that a lot of people would like to see kate abigail... dead. i'd love to have a long-term solution to that, but that's not practical right now. every day i'm still alive, despite the fact that a lot of people would very much prefer that i not be, is a goddamn triumph.

i feel we're perhaps coming at this from slightly different perspectives.

We definitely are.

point taken re: USA being loads of different countries, altho my point was more that some may be running the risk of have their dystopian cake (calling the USA a dystopia) and eating it too (choosing somewhere in the USA over every other place in the world, given a free hypothetical choice)

I also didn't specify my own answer, and whether it is in the UK or not (honestly I'd need to think about it a lot)

but if one gratifying thing has happened it is alphie going full Eileen Drewery, jesus christ

Don't think you can do thinking imago.

Coming from the cracked halfwit who just told a trans person they may have been the problem

I don't know why this community tolerates you, you've gone

You've attempted to form thoughts and read the situation. Please don't try things you aren't capable of.

You sound exactly as deranged as you are

I'll also say this for Louisiana vs. Tennessee, it would be some small comfort to me to move to a majority Catholic state from a majority Baptist one. I'm not religious and have a very dim view of the conservative factions of both denominations, but ... at least Catholics have some traditions of education and intellectual pursuit. In Tennessee I've become increasingly aware of the cultural constraints and limitations of the state's hardcore Baptist/evangelical heritage. We had the Scopes trial here for a reason.

you're both barmy, clearly ralph wiggum was saying that he is really good at sleep

xp to lj and xyzzzz

my criteria for where i'd like to eventually be, based on reasons why i'm unhappy with where i am now:

i'd like to find a cultural atmosphere that is less actively discouraging when it comes to creating solidarity among working people.
a place that has made some progress toward addressing its colonial / gendered violence in real ways, or is at least not actively brutalizing groups of people.
a place that isn't at the top of the list for well-off bourgeois ex-pats (if it has an nytimes article written about it then forget about it, i can't afford it).
access to trail running within the urban area - a large undeveloped park or riverfront trail or something like that.

Coming from the cracked halfwit who just told a trans person they may have been the problem

― imago

having said that please do not use my transness as supporting evidence as to why xyzzzz is a dum-dum and you are a smarty-smart, it comes off as kinda tokenizing and gross tbh

the road to hell eh

say hi to harry benjamin when you get there

Mexico City seems to contain everywhere. I'd move there first and then figure out how many blocks and in which direction to move finally.

I’ve never been. But a very well-traveled old friend of mine has always loved Mexico City the most. I need to be at least Duolingo unit 7 before I will allow myself to visit, even though I know anyone would be able to pick me out as the guy who doesn’t know things and would just start off with English to spare both of us the indignity of me having to compliment their green shirt, blue shoes, and very pretty hat.

It's _also_ - and people who don't live here maybe don't realize this - functionally not one country.

This is a very good point. I'd just add that ime many americans (not meaning you, Kate) don't appreciate this about other countries where it is also more or less the case.

I thought about the thread premise, but my answers swing between nowhere and far too many other ideas (I also really liked New Orleans on my one visit). I don't know, I'm a twice-over immigrant, so I tend to adapt to my circumstances while never really feeling like I belong somewhere indefinitely. Having immigrated as an adult, I now know just how romanticized the idea of picking up and moving to a new country can be, while paradoxically I also think more people should consider it

say hi to harry benjamin when you get there

― Kate (rushomancy)

look i wanna apologize for that response. the fuck do you know about harry benjamin? i feel like i wanna do better than that.

i know this is gonna sound weird given that i'm the lady for whom literally fucking everything is about my being trans, but what xyzzzzzzz said had nothing to do with my being trans. they said some stuff and i disagreed in a fairly vehement fashion and honestly i feel we'd kind of reached an "agree to disagree" state on things, which for the topic at hand is perfectly acceptable.

and what you said kind of pissed me off for the reasons i outlined previously, like it kind of came off like white knighting and you know how long have we known each other here? a long-ass time. but also because there's a general problem, which is that a lot of people are fucking terrified of me. like when i talk about reclaiming my own monstrosity it's not just that transphobes think i come from the maw of hell or whatever, it's the way _allies_ act sometimes. there's a lot of shit i want to talk about sometimes, a lot of false assumptions people have, and if people aren't going to talk to me at all about anything important for fear of saying the Wrong Thing people are going to keep having those false assumptions.

like i know it's not my _responsibility_ to explain myself or justify my existence to anybody else, but it's something i personally want to do, which i can't do if cis people are remaining silent out of fear that they'll say the Bad Thing and have to cower in shame. like no you're not going to hell because you white knighted and tokenized me in some dumb internet argument, i just kind of hoped given that we kind of know each other that i could say "hey maybe don't do that" and that could be it.

anyway i've never been to nola or to mexico city but they both sound like fucking cool places to live!

enjoy reading your posts, Kate

I liked New Orleans when I visited too, but even in May it felt like an intense steam bath, I could not go outside for any length of time during the day

oh we planned our trip in April precisely to avoid the summer. I live in Miami, yet I've never known heat like the mephitic formal swamp like DC. New Orleans is also below sea level, no?

The heat and humidity in DC are NY in the summer are bad, almost unbearable, and when you're walking around you have to duck into an air conditioned shop every couple of blocks, but my experiences visiting New Orleans and Houston feel like they are on a different level

I've only been full summer in New Orleans once, it's pretty miserable. But I grew up in Rust Belt winters, I'm used to having a miserable season. Linen suits and ceiling fans are more fun than Duck boots and kerosene heaters.

Plus my wife says the miserable summers kind of bring everyone together in shared suffering. Like Carnival in reverse, but still a civic bonding.

bought land years ago in VT for my eventual retreat. that said, if i ever wanted to go place somewhere during the winter months, i fell in love with my visit to New Orleans and would go there again in a heartbeat. never understood the Florida appeal for the northern section of the US.

My brother has himself set up nicely in Vermont, he's a bit of an evangelist for it. He has a log house, he's teaching his kids to ski, he makes his own maple syrup, the whole deal. And works remotely for tech companies, I think he's on his third job since he moved up there and it's all been from their house. A bit remote for me, I think places to go and things to do, but I get the appeal.

I want places to go and things to do, I mean

This thread makes me think of Revolutionary Road by Richard Yates. The author treats the couple's plan to move to Paris as the embodiment of deluded wishing, but then he also treats a poorly-performed amateur play as a crushing humiliation. So to avoid extreme pessimism, perhaps stay away from this book while thinking of living elsewhere.

haven't read it but i'm told there is astonishing alcoholism involved as well. sounds like a challenge

I would move back to the UP of Michigan.

oh dear god, why would you do that? whereabouts did you spend time up there?

would also UP

i like the UP! for camping, at least. had a few wonderful times there.

xps

What you really need to avoid is being a character in a Richard Yates novel, things don't work out great.

alas

xp But then there's The Ambassadors by Henry James, where going to Paris is transformative.

Personally, I find that I am a far more socially adept person when I am speaking a foreign language. It may have something to do with ADHD; it's hard to talk too much when you're speaking another language, and any little oddities in how you talk or engage with people get buffered by the language barrier. And any vibes of trying too hard can easily pass as the natural effort involved in speaking a new language in a new culture. So in that sense, living abroad is a very different experience because people see me differently and I respond accordingly.

Seems many here have fallen in love with New Orleans as I did. Did no one have the experience a friend of mine had: it’s dirty, smelly, too hot, too poor, food’s too rich and spicy, etc. etc.? They couldn’t wait to leave.

New Orleans for the winter months - could never bring myself to live in the southeast during the summer months.

Seems many here have fallen in love with New Orleans as I did. Did no one have the experience a friend of mine had: it’s dirty, smelly, too hot, too poor, food’s too rich and spicy, etc. etc.? They couldn’t wait to leave.

I've been there several times, enjoyed visiting, would happily go back again, felt no particular desire to live there, I think this rather than the two above is probably the modal response

whereabouts did you spend time up there?

I grew up in the Keweenaw and still have family and friends there. It's weird but it's home, lots of fresh water and very pretty.

could see why. i remember having some rare decent food at the Pizza Hut in Houghton in the 90s.

Suprised so many of you want to go to NZ. Why there? Why not Melbourne or Sydney if you want the antipodean life? I'd be worried about all the earthquakes.

I have done many things I regret in my life, but suddenly moving to a country where I didn't speak the language and didn't know anyone was 100% a great idea, culture shock is the spice of life. While I might be more successful professionally now if I'd stayed in the UK, the idea of having spent my 20s and 30s in this grey, sarcastic shithole is not a nice thought.

the question was obviously 'if money/family/etc is no object'

The question is more interesting if it assumes money/family/etc limitations, otherwise you’re likely to end up with Sting ‘property portfolio’ style answers: Tuscan vineyard, country estate in England, Queen Anne house in Westminster, apartments in Manhattan and Battersea Power Station.

xp Same

the question sounds more like a forever thing though so I dunno. Was never going to stay in Japan long term.

My guess on the appeal of NZ: Flying Nun, Look Blue Go Purple, the Clean; the Maori

the Beths

The question is more interesting if it assumes money/family/etc limitations, otherwise you’re likely to end up with Sting ‘property portfolio’ style answers: Tuscan vineyard, country estate in England, Queen Anne house in Westminster, apartments in Manhattan and Battersea Power Station.

― Luna Schlosser, Wednesday, 1 June 2022 11:16 (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

do you really think that low of us, the Battersea apartment complex is genuinely one of the worst places I have ever visited

would have hoped people might opt for choices a little more imaginative than clichéd wealth enclaves

I grew up in the Keweenaw and still have family and friends there. It's weird but it's home, lots of fresh water and very pretty.

― underminer of twenty years of excellent contribution to this borad (dan m), Wednesday, June 1, 2022 4:12 AM (nine hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm currently set up to inherit a small property in northern lower MI, except of course that the owner is only slightly older than me, so I hope I don't get it and I just pass it down a generation.

But yes, water + pretty = I think about it a lot.

(X-post)

Oh dear. Everyone seems to be disappointing your high ideals!

(I was listing Sting’s property portfolio btw.)

You haven’t mentioned what might motivate you to stray from the urban paradise of Charlton SE7.

imago, please reexamine your posts and recognize what a condescending ass you're being toward people who are sincerely trying to answer the question.

Did no one have the experience a friend of mine had: it’s dirty, smelly, too hot, too poor, food’s too rich and spicy, etc. etc.? They couldn’t wait to leave.

tbf I've know people who react the same way to NYC — maybe not the too hot (tho in late July ...), but definitely too dirty, smelly, etc. Some people like their urban areas a little more urbane. New Orleans is a ramshackle city perennially falling into the ocean, beset by centuries of racism, corruption and general decadence of all kinds. It's the opposite of tidy, for sure. But it has a civic spirit and commitment to joy in the face of doom that is increasingly in line with my own worldview.

xpost yes, threadban plz

sick of imago/xyzzzzz beefs shitting up literally every thread lately

i remember having some rare decent food at the Pizza Hut in Houghton in the 90s.

The origin of your screen name, presumably?

Suprised so many of you want to go to NZ. Why there? Why not Melbourne or Sydney if you want the antipodean life? I'd be worried about all the earthquakes.

― Stoop Crone (Trayce), Wednesday, June 1, 2022 3:44 AM bookmarkflaglink

just what i've read about it, and also I have a friend who spent some time there and loved it. buuuuut if I were to actually consider moving there I'd probably dig deeper than anecdotal stories.

are they allowing people to emigrate there atm? I know during the first few years of pandemic (god it sickened me to write that) I think that was a hard 'no'.

Somewhere between Lisbon and Porto seems good to me rn

Plus my wife says the miserable summers kind of bring everyone together in shared suffering. Like Carnival in reverse, but still a civic bonding.

― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra)

ah yes, i remember the first month of covid too

Seems many here have fallen in love with New Orleans as I did. Did no one have the experience a friend of mine had: it’s dirty, smelly, too hot, too poor

― Three Rings for the Elven Bishop (Dan Peterson)

so are you deliberately quoting my online dating profile or what?

i'm not gonna lie - to me the NZ fantasy is all about seeing where sauron lord of the rings came to be

i was also impressed when they had a mass shooting and immediately banned semi-automatic weapons. (i realize a similar response has happened in other countries where mass shootings have occurred, including the well-known continent of australia. but none of those other countries have sean bean

that action played a lot into my decision making as well. but honestly I think I had just seen Hunt for the Wilderpeople and decided I loved New Zealand.

Re: New Orleans, I would never, ever move there, but I've also had a different experience than some people, perhaps— I really love it there, but have a distinct impression that I would wilt during the summers, and also just give in to alcoholism in a way that I haven't yet done here in Philly.

My main reasoning has nothing to do with the culture, poverty, or tidiness— I live in Philadelphia, after all— but because about half of the people I've ever known in New Orleans have died in New Orleans or died directly because of events that transpired in New Orleans. Only a few people I know are thriving down there, and a majority of them are sober. (All my dead friends died of either liver issues, heroin, or in the big warehouse fire of 2010).

Oh yeah, I definitely would be a much less healthy person. It's hard to imagine maintaining things like daily exercise and being a vegetarian in New Orleans. I would definitely smell worse. But the culture is unique, and I just fantasize about going to second lines every Sunday.

Suprised so many of you want to go to NZ. Why there? Why not Melbourne or Sydney if you want the antipodean life? I'd be worried about all the earthquakes.

the serious consideration as to which particular town in NZ each respondent would choose is the tip-off here

would have hoped people might opt for choices a little more imaginative than clichéd wealth enclaves

― imago, Wednesday, June 1, 2022 5:55 AM (six hours ago)

imago, we now have a settler colonialism thread ... this would be a good discussion there tbh. At least the (mostly) educated white English-speakers of ILX are choosing places where they can be with those of their kind as opposed to colonizing / gentrifying?

I mean, I guess I could try to move back to the unpromising Greek Island my great-grandparents emigrated from over 100 years ago ... but honestly, I would probably choose El Cerrito or a bougie condo in Los Angeles (since staying in my own city is against the rules of the thread)?

please don't direct imago to the settler colonialism thread thanks

half of the people I've ever known in New Orleans have died in New Orleans

tbh if we move there it could easily become the place I die, tho ideally not for a few decades at least. It's even an appealing prospect. But I know what you mean, there are certainly rough currents there. (R.I.P. Johnny Thunders.)

i would likely enjoy living somewhere on the navajo reservation if i had access to necessities and a sense of kinship but yeah that's complicated isn't it.

i want somewhere that's quiet, has nice bars that aren't of the "loud trivia night/karaoke" type, but quiet places where you can sit outdoors and talk about your lives with friends while the sunsets, where there aren't "I DID THIS" stickers all over every gas pump and "TRUMP WON" posters visible, where there's beautiful street art on the corners, and concert venues that are loud as fuck and get obscure metal bands to show up.

and weed is decriminalized.

"I DID THIS" stickers

wait, what are these?!

stickers of Joe Biden pointing, and people paste them so that his hand is pointing at the gas prices on the pumps.

I've ripped several off in the past month.

you have to admit that joe biden does control global gas prices though

one of those "the worst person you know has a point" moments

At least the (mostly) educated white English-speakers of ILX are choosing places where they can be with those of their kind as opposed to colonizing / gentrifying?

New Zealand is colonised?!

Like, it literally is? White people are the colonists there.

Also certain other large countries

in conclusion, we should all live under the sea

i want somewhere that's quiet, has nice bars that aren't of the "loud trivia night/karaoke" type, but quiet places where you can sit outdoors and talk about your lives with friends while the sunsets, where there aren't "I DID THIS" stickers all over every gas pump and "TRUMP WON" posters visible, where there's beautiful street art on the corners, and concert venues that are loud as fuck and get obscure metal bands to show up.

and weed is decriminalized.

A bit of weed, a bit of colonialism..

Let's make lots of money.

he's in Florida and talking about sitting outdoors so... canada would be a bit of a let down

You can't sit outdoors most of the year here in North Central Florida. It's either too hot and humid or too damply cool.

a good year in most all of Canada we're talking 50 sit out nights

*all the more populated parts of canada. adjusted to average for the geography we're talking 0.5

I grew up near Buffalo on the Canadian border. The joke there was that Buffalo had two seasons, winter and the 4th of July. It wasn't really true, but warm summer nights were valued

Florida's not quite but reaching the 'unbearable to be outside' phase. my mother got heat exhaustion just trying to see Paul McCartney last weekend, and this was as the sun was setting.

I feel like one of those cheap CVS misters is a required purchase here

I grew up near Buffalo on the Canadian border. The joke there was that Buffalo had two seasons, winter and the 4th of July. It wasn't really true, but warm summer nights were valued

I read a version of that joke in a Jim Harrison book, describing the Upper Peninsula of Michigan as having two seasons, August and winter. He described sitting in a pickup truck with the engine running and the heat blasting to watch Fourth of July fireworks.

Florida's heat is still more manageable than DC or New Orleans if you're on the coast.

My dad grew up in northern Wisconsin and his version was "ten months of winter and two months of tough sledding".

Buffalo isn't so cold, though, because there's always a house on fire nearby.

not sure what that refers to tbh

70s news broadcasts on WIVB and WKBW that seemed to be nothing but house fires in Tonawanda and Cheektowaga, night after night.

I remember that being a thing in Detroit in the 70s - Devil's Night - but not in Tonawanda or Cheektowaga

we got hit really hard by the lake-effect winter snow coming from the west over Lake Erie

This thread makes me think of Revolutionary Road by Richard Yates. The author treats the couple's plan to move to Paris as the embodiment of deluded wishing, but then he also treats a poorly-performed amateur play as a crushing humiliation. So to avoid extreme pessimism, perhaps stay away from this book while thinking of living elsewhere.

― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 1 June 2022 03:02 (yesterday) link

ha, that's hilarious. i hadn't heard of that book til now, but it basically sounds like paris syndrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_syndrome

Finland:

it's either dark all the time or light all the time
everything just seems to work perfectly
death metal is normcore
even the tiniest apartment has a sauna and you will see everyone you know fully naked
the most popular flavour for any foodstuff is salted licorice
everyone is surprisingly open and friendly, in a quiet reserved sort of way, but all of them carry big knives

― Portrait Of A Dissolvi Ng Drea M (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Monday, May 30, 2022 4:07 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

i can't tell if you like or dislike those things, but all that sounds awesome to me

Also: rampant alcoholism, I gather.

not even in the top 10

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/alcoholism-by-country

"If you could pack up and move your whole life, where would you go? "

1971

Odd that some countries with reputations for alcoholism, like Ireland and Iceland, rate much lower than South Korea or Latvia. Doesn't mean that alcoholism isn't a problem there, but that reputations are not a very good yardstick.

New Zealand is colonised?!

― gyac, Wednesday, June 1, 2022 2:33 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Like, it literally is? White people are the colonists there.

― gyac, Wednesday, June 1, 2022 2:34 PM (yesterday)

yeah, you're right ... but they'd be the 2nd, 3rd, whatever wave? Does that make it better? Do you feel like it's worse than being the first white boots on the ground? What if they're American, and are coming from another country where white people were the colonizers?

What?

I guess sarahell is saying they wouldn't be doing a new colonisation. In essence, moving to NZ for a white American is just the same as moving somewhere else in the US - they are colonised lands but for generations have been majority of white-European heritage.

The original statement: At least the (mostly) educated white English-speakers of ILX are choosing places where they can be with those of their kind as opposed to colonizing / gentrifying?

I mean, this is entirely flawed, but it seems to suggest that moving to a pre-colonised place is somehow morally better than moving to another country that isn't predominantly white-European? The fear of being a new coloniser seems to be more heavy than the fear of perpetuating colonisation, not to mention the fear of becoming some sort of weird ethno-bubble?

Well who would choose to be an outsider long term? Many of us are for whatever reason.. but the question is where would you go settle in if money is no object

Oh yeah, I'm not talking about the practical reasons anyone might have for their choice, and personally I'm absolutely not judging anyone for their choices! However, the statement that seems to have caught attention very much seems to be concerned with the morality of the moves people might make. As though there's a wider guiding principle that people should take into consideration. I feel like it's reasonable to pick up on that and question it.

itt people seeking their tribe

my dreams of moving somewhere else are predicated on going somewhere to be an alien

i probably would've made a pretty good Fin

xp I've done it, it can be a great time. But it's rare to want to stay like that

am i wrong in thinking the question isn't talking about a few year jaunt?

NV, one of my more feasible dreams of moving is actually to Hull. Pretty much entirely b/c it's one of the only places I could maybe afford to buy a place to live. Also, Spiders.

I once registered with a mutual exchange council home swap site and was looking for somewhere by the sea, even places with bad reps like Grismby or Filey but there weren't many wanting to move my way. Then I found someone with family in my area and willing to swap this way on the Isle of Man and their description of the house made it sound amazing, it had a sea facing back garden and apparently you could see the Milky Way on a clear night. But I felt like I'd end up getting murdered or chased into the sea with pitchforks and turned it down.

i fear Spiders is not what it was

Weren't they still birching people on the Isle of Man until ludicrously recently?

that wouldn't surprise me

Not that recently but recently enough:

The Isle of Man (a small island between Britain and Ireland with its own legal system as a British Crown dependency) caused a good deal of controversy by continuing to birch young offenders until 1976.

I guess sarahell is saying they wouldn't be doing a new colonisation. In essence, moving to NZ for a white American is just the same as moving somewhere else in the US - they are colonised lands but for generations have been majority of white-European heritage.

The original statement: _At least the (mostly) educated white English-speakers of ILX are choosing places where they can be with those of their kind as opposed to colonizing / gentrifying?_

I mean, this is entirely flawed, but it seems to suggest that moving to a pre-colonised place is somehow morally better than moving to another country that isn't predominantly white-European? The fear of being a new coloniser seems to be more heavy than the fear of perpetuating colonisation, not to mention the fear of becoming some sort of weird ethno-bubble?

My argument is don’t call NZ a white country in the sense its indigenous people are white - unlike, idk Ireland, where we actually are - and then say that moving there is to be with fellow elite people and it’s not colonising. I’m not sure modern day Māori much care about the motives of white westerners pricing them out or what wave of colonialism we’re splitting hairs on, you know?

fellow white, lol, thanks autocorrect

I love my house and immediate neighborhood, like an approximately one-square-mile area that has my preferred bars and shops and whatnot.

However, it would be nice if it were mounted on gigantic rails and could be moved to approximately the latitude of Savannah, Georgia in February.
Then slide it to approximately to the latitude of Freeport, Maine in August. Perhaps do this gradually, so that it's pretty much always late spring or early autumn.

Every couple of years it might be fun to have it transferred to a huge barge and towed to the vicinity of Aruba, or Cap D'Antibes, or Venice.

Or, alternatively, just keep it on a barge and move it lazily up and down the US east coast, near enough to run day excursions to art museums in Boston, New York, Philadelphia, Washington, etc.

gyac, I agree with what you're saying. I was just trying to expand on the point that I thought was being made and pick it apart a little. The picking apart wasn't really directed at a specific argument, just my thoughts on the questions brought up.

More thoughts: I do think that the morality of moving isn't all that simple - I believe in open borders, free travel and the broadening of cultural horizons, but is that extricable from the history of colonialism and current structures of privilege? Can I say "culture should be shared" when I come from a country that is notorious for stealing and stifling it?

I guess maybe I should move this to another thread, though, if it seems a bit heavy on this one?

the question is framed to imagine that you alone have this wonderful power to go and live anyplace you please

it would be an interesting thought experiment to ask if everyone in the world was given this right and, somehow, the resources, what would that look like, and what do you see yourself doing?

(Don’t say a bouncy room covered on all six sides with bouncy rubber material, don’t say a bouncy room covered on all six sides with bouncy rubber material)

a bouncy room covered on all six sides with bouncy rubber material, fuck!

could be one of the safer places to be

My argument is don’t call NZ a white country in the sense its indigenous people are white

that wasn't my intent ... but I am glad that you brought it up.

I'd think twice about Wales, if any of you were considering it.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10876967/Firebombing-threat-Welsh-holiday-homes-amid-fury-spiralling-house-prices.html

old bustedness: "Reject humanity, return to monke."

new hotness: "Reject housing, embrace bouncy."

Okay but can the bouncy room be in zero-G as well?

Because I totally want a bouncy castle that is also in space

(xp) Though as long as you're not English you might be fine.

you will likely have to get a special insurance policy for the bouncy castle ... regular property insurance will likely not cover it.

now I'm wondering what would happen if you filled a moon bounce with helium

I want to know, and also, this is why the US stopped going to the moon in the 1970s. Once the bouncy castle experiment was even brought up, barely, that one time, funding was pulled

https://images.parents.mdpcdn.com/sites/parents.com/files/styles/scale_1500_1500/public/images/550_102150555.jpg

now we're talking

You know that cardboard cat castle rents for $3,000 a month in Palo Alto

a bargain at $2,950 in Park Slope tho

now I'm wondering what would happen if you filled a moon bounce with helium

― Nutellanor Roosevelt (Ye Mad Puffin)

Bubble Boy showed how that worked out.

Karl have you been to Marfa/Alpine? I can picture you liking it a lot. Caek could comment more.

As for the OP, it’s hard for me to choose; I currently live in about the best spot in the US for my particular life priorities (which have and will change over time!), so it would be somewhere abroad. Copenhagen, maybe? Taipei?

A Costa Rican friend of mine spent time in Marfa recently. He had to keep his passport in his breast pocket at all times b/c he got stopped by the border patrol multiple times per day, patrol helicopters buzzing overhead all the time. It sounded like hell frankly, ofc my white friend had a different experience

Savannah is where i’m packing to move. Packing fucking sucks and moving sucks.

A few years ago I visited a place in Italy called Bomarzo. It's has a famous park with giant stone sculptures of monsters in it. It's miles from anywhere and tricky to reach by public transport. I had to take a train and a regional bus from Rome. It's one of those places where the last bus leaves for the nearest city at 17:45 and if you miss it the next bus is 07:45 the next morning. Perhaps because of this I remember that the house prices were really low, e.g. this nice flat for €29,000:
https://www.idealista.it/en/immobile/24922588/

It's rare that I use the alt-gr key, but that's how you write the Euro symbol. There's probably a catch that makes it a nightmare hellscape to live in, but I could imagine myself relocating there. I would sit all day in front of the computer until I have a heart attack, and then a few years later they would find my mummified corpse, but it would be in Italy so the scenery would be nicer. I could wear tight shorts and walk around the house with a hairy chest, like Pablo Picasso.

Bomarzo's scenery is pleasant - it's a hill town surrounded by woods - but slightly odd because the place looks as if it was scorched by fire and never repainted:
https://goo.gl/maps/1LJi66UaQfZWTF9R7

I remember seeing people on the top floor using a bucket with a pulley to lift their shopping. Apparently this is also a thing in Naples:
http://www.grandvoyageitaly.com/piazza/only-in-italy-opanar-the-naples-basket-lift

It's called an o'panar, and comes about because the old stone houses don't have elevators, and the Italians aren't willing to dynamite them and replace them with breeze-block-and-brick Bovis-style homes with paper-thin walls, as in the UK.

think of all the things that keep you where you are. maybe you already found your place. but if you didn't have the things you love (family, friends) and loathe (work, loans, unhappy obligations) keeping you where you are, where would you go?

*bonus question for those who like a little more direction: what if your main goal was to live in an inspiring place to paint, to be around painters, and to spend as little money as possible?

― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone)

Having a "fuck it" moment of my own. What if your main goal was to see all the different animals, to be around beaches, and to spend as little money as possible? And what if you didn't know how to drive?

Opportunities to care for animals and the ability opt out of human interaction much of the time would be a big plus.

Galapagos Islands are not accepting new residents, so that's out...

The California Channel Islands I think have volunteer caretakers (maybe even Santa Catalina, that has a town there). I wouldn't mind spending a few months of the year on the bigger, non-Catalina ones.

Or have perhaps consider a “reset” trip to India, travelling also to Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos ? If you avoid the wealthy gap year students, you may find yourself in five years time a Buddhist monk in a remote order.

Trust me, Eastern religion is not a thing I need more of.

The non-Catalina islands look amazing! But seem to be uninhabited

They are uninhabited, but I think there are "park ranger/biological researcher" type situations where people can stay on the larger ones for a while.

ah gotcha, thanks
I'll look into that for sure but guessing i wouldn't qualify, certainly not as a researcher anyway.

What if the places you'd like to move are on paths that point to copying the things you hate about where you are right now? (What I'm trying to say here isn't fully formed in my own mind; by all means ask questions.)

If you want new animals, Madagascar would be your best bet. Unless you are already from there, in which case its abundant biodiversity is prob old hat.

Madagascar unfortunately not particular safe for fay old me, been wanting to go forever and seems a little impossible

Yeah I forgot to mention, someplace where homosexuality is not punishable by imprisonment or death would really be best.

So Borneo is probably out, too.

They are uninhabited, but I think there are "park ranger/biological researcher" type situations where people can stay on the larger ones for a while.

My gf's mom's next door neighbor got to stay at an old sheep ranch on Santa Cruz Island while they updated the signage... he said it was pretty amazing, and the food was excellent

I think some of the "biological researcher" positions are like "Here's a picture of an Island Fox, walk around and count them when you see them, and put an X on this map of where they were spotted. But these positions tend to get filled by bio major undergrads from So Cal colleges.

Honestly, I know absolutely nothing about Madagascar aside from the cool biodiversity. Didn't mean to make people upset/sad, sorry.

Aw, you didn't upset me fwiw and I took the table is the table's post more as a "great idea! but..."

I don't think homosexuality is actually criminal in Madagascar though it is in Brunei and Malaysia so I should apologize for conflating those things.

Lol

Europe is substantially poorer, more racist, less dynamic, and MUCH less free than the US

Food is bland, coffee tastes like shit, the weather is mostly awful, their primary cultural export is tourism, and they have less say in the affairs of the world https://t.co/zOrZI15O1P

— Saagar Enjeti (@esaagar) June 27, 2022

uh the racism part is absolutely true.

Really tickled by the notion “coffee tastes like shit” like Italy just doesn’t exist and as for Vienna…

Or Paris, even, for that matter.

Shit, the coffee out of a streetside Nescafe vending machine on thw outskirts of Krakow makes better coffee than any Starbucks i’ve ever been in.

The guy is a fucking idiot

uh the racism part is absolutely true.

― broccoli rabe thomas (the table is the table), Tuesday, 28 June 2022 bookmarkflaglink

Lol no it depends where exactly in Europe you are at.

I’m only going by what I’ve seen and what my non-white friends have told me.

Europe has double the population with less than half the number of people locked up in the US. Whose increasingly run for profit and non-racist prison industrial industrial complex has a demographically disproportionate 38% share of black prisoners! There might be lots of nazis in Europe and shitty racist centre-right governments, but I don't think there is any country whose systematic racism is so brutally efficient at incarcerating black people as in the US.

Europe has never been a racial paradise but it’s notably more difficult for the local whites supremacists to access guns.

having trouble with “more racist,” maybe “as racist in somewhat different permutations” (not that i know from experience)

accusing europe of having worse coffee than america is hilarious

I’m speaking purely of treatment on the street, fwiw. A Black friend of mine said “I was never treated more like an n-word than in Barcelona and Boston”

“Less say in the affairs of the world” eh

I looked this person up & it’s some conservative podcaster so that’s your lens through which to parse “racist” “dynamic” and “free” ie, as xyz says, lol

the mention of boston says it all i think

You can be followed by young children on bicycles in Coventry and in large groups afer school in New Haven. They call out chinks for all Asians.

They probably don't know what they are saying or doing.

The one part of that tweet which is probably true is that salaries in even the richest European countries are somewhat worse than the US.

The Big If is public services and what the trade-off might be in terms of what Europeans get. We all see the horror stories on healthcare in the US.

would Europe let us Americans in? Seriously, as an American, with no significant ancestral ties to any country in Europe, could I actually become a citizen of a European country?

Not unless you’re very rich and can buy a passport from Malta or Bulgaria (Malta is around €750k, not sure how much Bulgaria is). Most other countries at the very least have residency requirements - when Brexit happened my now husband was looking to see if he could get Irish citizenship via me. He can, but we would have to move and live there for about 3-5 years. So, the easiest ways to do it are via “investment” (ie buying the passport) or having a parent or grandparent from some country. The residence requirement for non EU citizens means you need a visa of some description which can range from being difficult to a major fucking pain. However, if you are the non-EU partner or spouse of an EU citizen you can move with them to any country in the EU regardless of job etc and the EU can’t prevent you from doing so. Ymmv but essentially the barriers are greatly decreased and in some cases non existent. Iirc on that last point, up until Brexit that was a right I, as a non-British EU citizen, had over British citizens, which was crazy.

Oh also if you’re an Irish citizen whose only citizenship is that, there are huge delays in getting your passport issued or renewed because of all the British people who’ve decided to take up their ancestry to avoid passport queues*. So even if you do have an ancestry claim it could take years, so that’s great.

*this thinking applies mainly to the likes of Emma Kennedy and not British people from Irish families with a genuine connection who just never got around to it!

thanks for not saying, "sarah, you suck, you deserve to be stuck in America." ... my bff is Bulgarian, I should ask her!

Lmao it’s not up to me, there are tons of worse people living in Europe I assure you!

(Bulgaria’s a steal at €512k btw). However, I only know about this cos I’m constantly seeing ads for it on Russian-owned livejournal so there’s possibly a bit of a queue.

my wife has irish citizenship but it's pretty white over there, no?

Much less so than it used to be.

cool we should visit sometime

maybe her mom knows someone! (her mom used to live in the same apartment building as my friend, so I got to know her ... she is hilarious ... I have many stories about N's mom, but not for this thread)

Bulgaria is nice, I've traveled around there a but, but it's absolutely hemorrhaging population, especially in rural areas

would Europe let us Americans in? Seriously, as an American, with no significant ancestral ties to any country in Europe, could I actually become a citizen of a European country?

Many countries will allow freelancers/self-employed people to move there. Germany has a self-employed visa, Sweden has one...it's a bureaucratic pain in the ass, and expensive, but it can absolutely be done. About a month ago, I talked to an immigration lawyer about moving to Sweden. He told me that their menu of services, to prepare and process your application, costs between $6-15K. You have to be able to prove that you have enough money to live in the country for two years (about $30K) and show a viable business plan (which they help you prepare), and the application process — from submitting your forms to getting a thumbs-up or thumbs-down — takes about a year. If you get approved, you get a long-term residency permit, and once you've lived in the country for five years without breaking any laws or whatever, you can apply for citizenship.

can I do this for England?

I'm only half joking when I ask, why would you want to? With so many other options available...

appreciate the summary info about the logistics of this

if you don't want to be a citizen and you're employable there are plenty of options in europe. not necessarily easy/good options, especially if you have a family.

because the English appreciate their big bottomed birds? idk

i'm going to try to move from a red state to a blue state in the next 5 years which feels daunting enough.

apologies if discussed upthread, but many of the usual bug out locations when this topic comes up (e.g. NZ and canada) make immigration difficult to impossible for people (or families) with disabilities or other health conditions.

colorado would be a big improvement and feels approachable. i don't exactly love it but probably denver. the western slope is beautiful but overall more conservative than where i am currently, even though it's in a liberal state. it would be more difficult being out there i think, unless i want to go the recluse route.

Colorado is my pragmatic answer, but "another planet" if we're talking ideal situations.

if you don't want to be a citizen and you're employable there are plenty of options in europe. not necessarily easy/good options, especially if you have a family.

I recently read that Estonia is actively seeking expats. They have what's called a "digital nomad visa". I've seen pictures of Estonia; it's pretty. A guy I know, originally from NYC, lives on an island there now.

*immigrants

(xp) I imagine it's fine if you don't mind Putin breathing down your neck.

Southern California, at least until it runs out of water.

I like the Estonian PM.. but it's a pretty tiny country, like 1.5 million or something

I have an American born-and-raised friend with Estonian citizenship because a grand or great grandparent grew up there; her two children (also born in the US) also have it but her husband does not. They’re apparently pretty open based on family lineage due to having so few people.

This family’s lived there on sabbaticals and fullbrights for extended periods on two occasions now but he actually got deported last month due to some visa screw up. So they’re not just taking everyone and I don’t think it’s trivial for him to actually get citizenship there despite being married to one but long term residency might be easier.

I’d be a brain in a vat thinking it’s seeing Husker Du at Goofy’s Upper Deck…forever.

Was very disappointed to find out that I would have qualified for Canadian citizenship via my grandmother (native, so my dad would have been automatically eligible) if I had applied before 2009.

I'd like to say a medium-sized island in the finland archipelago but as a californian I would probably wimp out on the brutal winders, oh well

last i checked, my own best chance for eu citizenship would involve (somehow) accessing a mess of birth & marriage certs going back a century, getting them professionally translated into italiano, explaining the part about the bigamy and aliases, and accidentally dropping generous bribes on a lot of desks

It would have been cool to early gotten some nice land around Taylorsville lake area, somewhat in driving distance to Louisville for work before the money hit town. It's really nice there and will be getting completely transformed into a big money house place especially with the new Ford electric plant.

I like to think I could hang with a place with more winter, but I don't know that it is reality unless I got a snow blower.

Welcome to Portugal, the new expat haven. Californians, please go home

Just found about United States. Had no idea. Unfollowing now

— Alex Peter (@LolOverruled) July 5, 2022

xp some family friends actually packed up and moved over to that exact city in Portugal. went to visit them in February and it looked like Portugal's version of the French Riviera.

I have no idea what the Austrian immigration options are but I've really enjoyed the time I've spent in Vienna. Good walking city with lots of public transportation.

New Zealand