hhttp://variety.com/2017/film/news/martin-scorsese-development-killers-of-the-flower-moon-dante-ferretti-1202495680/
― Dan Worsley, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:03 (six years ago) link
The story it's based on is nothing if not fascinating and undoubtedly gruesome. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osage_Indian_murders
Will be keen to see if they can do justice both to the victims and the source material.
― Dan Worsley, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:05 (six years ago) link
o damn adapting the grann book ? u crazy for this one marty
― johnny crunch, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:09 (six years ago) link
he better get to that Pacino-De Niro film before they all croak
― Supercreditor (Dr Morbius), Friday, 14 July 2017 17:25 (six years ago) link
i thought they were going to do the adaptation of Devil in the White City? this sounds like it's more interesting, though. i'd be worried the former would just be a Chicago GoNY.
― nomar, Friday, 14 July 2017 17:27 (six years ago) link
bully
http://deadline.com/2017/09/leonardo-dicaprio-martin-scorsese-teddy-roosevelt-movie-paramount-1202177329/
― ice cream social justice (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 27 September 2017 16:30 (six years ago) link
Marty has an Instagram page
https://www.criterion.com/current/posts/6521-scorsese-opening-nyff-and-preparing-killers-of-the-flower-moon
https://www.indiewire.com/2019/07/martin-scorsese-scouts-killers-of-the-flower-moon-dicaprio-de-niro-1202161737/
― a Mets fan who gave up on everything in the mid '80s (Dr Morbius), Wednesday, 31 July 2019 15:42 (four years ago) link
so do his dogs
https://www.instagram.com/the.scorsese.dogs/
― devvvine, Wednesday, 31 July 2019 15:58 (four years ago) link
After working with Malick, Lynch, PTA, De Palma & more, legendary production designer Jack Fisk is teaming with Martin Scorsese for the first time with 'Killers of the Flower Moon' https://t.co/vTYuqPkTPe pic.twitter.com/BuTVFwsGSd— The Film Stage 📽 (@TheFilmStage) April 7, 2021
― too cool for zen talk (Eazy), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 02:02 (two years ago) link
Jason Isbell & Sturgill Simpson announced as part of the cast for this! honestly i’m into it, it’s a wild story & will make a great movie if they do it right
― terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Wednesday, 7 April 2021 02:09 (two years ago) link
https://i1.wp.com/bloody-disgusting.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/killers-of-the-flower-moon-scaled.jpg?w=2560&ssl=1
I'm looking forward to this one, I think! Good cast, good source material, sometimes OK screenwriter, seems like a good fit for Scorsese.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 10 May 2021 20:03 (two years ago) link
I'm about 3/4ths of the way through the book right now, looking forward to this.
― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Monday, 10 May 2021 20:05 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EG0si5bSd6I
― omar little, Thursday, 18 May 2023 17:27 (ten months ago) link
The book was good. This looks promising!
― SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Thursday, 18 May 2023 17:34 (ten months ago) link
Was Plemons in that trailer? Must have missed him.
206 minutes.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 18 May 2023 18:38 (ten months ago) link
Plemons is there at least once, looks like an interrogation scene w/dicaprio.
there's thoroughly unnerving vibe to that, which is appropriate for the story.
― omar little, Thursday, 18 May 2023 18:44 (ten months ago) link
Feels like this has been in the making for 10 years, looking forward to it though
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Thursday, 18 May 2023 18:47 (ten months ago) link
(only 5 years apparently)
― Random Restaurateur (Jordan), Thursday, 18 May 2023 18:49 (ten months ago) link
Took them that long develop the technology to make De Niro look so old.
― Dan Worsley, Thursday, 18 May 2023 18:53 (ten months ago) link
Bet in another ten years things will have progressed that they can make him look even older
― Vinnie, Thursday, 18 May 2023 23:25 (ten months ago) link
I read the book last summer. It was a deeply horrifying story of murder, racism, greed, conspiracy, and exploitation committed against indigenous people that everyone needs to hear about. But I didn't care much for that trailer. They made it look like some kind of big budget horror movie.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 18 May 2023 23:49 (ten months ago) link
Guardedly optimistic based on that trailer; some great images. (Haven't read the novel.) The very last words I'll utter on my deathbed, though, will be "Scorsese and DiCaprio...I don't get it."
― clemenza, Friday, 19 May 2023 14:11 (ten months ago) link
The lead actress is from Montana so the article in my local paper is all about her, as it should be.
Trailer Released for New Martin Scorsese Film Starring Blackfeet Nation’s Lily Gladstone
The first official teaser trailer for the director Martin Scorsese’s new movie “Killers of the Flower Moon,” which stars the actress Lily Gladstone, was released online Thursday ahead of the film’s world premiere this weekend at the Cannes Film Festival.Gladstone, who is of Blackfeet and Niimíipuu heritage, was born at Kalispell Regional Medical Center and spent her early years living on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation in Browning, before her family moved to Seattle when she was in middle school. A 2016 profile of Gladstone written for the University of Montana’s “Montanan” magazine describes how at an early age she was cast in a Missoula Children’s Theatre production of “Cinderella” that was performed in East Glacier Park, and how eventually she began pursuing ballet, learning in the basement of a Browning church, and taking lessons in Columbia Falls. She eventually focused on theater, performing in high school and community theater productions. Gladstone went on to enroll in the University of Montana’s Davidson Honors College where she ultimately graduated with a BFA in acting and a minor in Native American studies.
Gladstone, who is of Blackfeet and Niimíipuu heritage, was born at Kalispell Regional Medical Center and spent her early years living on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation in Browning, before her family moved to Seattle when she was in middle school. A 2016 profile of Gladstone written for the University of Montana’s “Montanan” magazine describes how at an early age she was cast in a Missoula Children’s Theatre production of “Cinderella” that was performed in East Glacier Park, and how eventually she began pursuing ballet, learning in the basement of a Browning church, and taking lessons in Columbia Falls. She eventually focused on theater, performing in high school and community theater productions. Gladstone went on to enroll in the University of Montana’s Davidson Honors College where she ultimately graduated with a BFA in acting and a minor in Native American studies.
― but also fuck you (unperson), Friday, 19 May 2023 14:45 (ten months ago) link
Gladstone was wonderful in Reichardt's Certain Women several years ago.
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 19 May 2023 14:49 (ten months ago) link
I think the horror element one feels watching that trailer is key, considering it's a late chapter in what is one of the true American horror stories. I think the POV shots seen in that trailer are thoroughly key.
― omar little, Friday, 19 May 2023 15:05 (ten months ago) link
I hadn't clocked the horror feel but that would certainly explain why this is the first Scorsese movie I've been mildly enthusiastic to see since, well, Shutter Island
― fair but so uncool beliefs here (Eric H.), Friday, 19 May 2023 15:10 (ten months ago) link
But Silence was a horror movie!
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 19 May 2023 15:14 (ten months ago) link
Interview: https://time.com/collection/time100-leadership-series/6311403/martin-scorsese-killers-of-the-flower-moon-interview/
― the dreaded dependent claus (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 12 September 2023 13:09 (six months ago) link
As beautiful and powerful as you'd expect but does tend to reduce attempted genocide to an opportunity for Leo to do his moral dilemma face for an hour or two. If you thought Oppenheimer was problematic then hoo, boy...
― Piedie Gimbel, Friday, 22 September 2023 14:23 (six months ago) link
Just saw Lily Gladstone is going to campaign for lead actress and not supporting, which good
― 50 Best Fellas (Eric H.), Friday, 22 September 2023 14:30 (six months ago) link
Potentially stiffer competition, tho
― jaymc, Friday, 22 September 2023 14:40 (six months ago) link
I'd normally rush off and see this, but I'll probably hold off a couple of weeks for a friend who's on the road. Will make sure to avoid all reviews. Remain hopeful.
― clemenza, Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:20 (five months ago) link
(And will also, as always, go in with an unreasonably high bar I expect it to meet.)
― clemenza, Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:22 (five months ago) link
may I suggest that while you're waiting, you read the book. the basic story will be the same in book and film, but the depth of detail will be much greater in the book and the details accumulate to make a very overwhelming impression that spreads well beyond the confines of the basic story.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:28 (five months ago) link
I thought I'd been nailed with another "It's the thread revive we all hoped for!"--close call.
― clemenza, Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:40 (five months ago) link
chalk that other up to The Goodfellas Effect
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:48 (five months ago) link
I'm not a great reader of fiction--I've always got a couple of non-fiction books on the go--so I always give precedence to the film. I've occasionally followed up a film I liked by reading the novel (The Spy Who Came in from the Cold comes to mind--and I did think the novel was excellent), but not very often.
― clemenza, Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:52 (five months ago) link
Well then you're in luck because Killers of the Flower Moon is nonfiction (and very good).
― jaymc, Saturday, 14 October 2023 18:57 (five months ago) link
Didn't know that, thought it was historical fiction...Being Scorsese, I'm still going to give the film priority.
― clemenza, Saturday, 14 October 2023 19:04 (five months ago) link
the process of turning the book into a script and a film will necessarily introduce various kinds of compression, elision, and other minor fictionalizations, but as you watch be aware that the murders, the murderers and their motives were all too real
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Saturday, 14 October 2023 19:18 (five months ago) link
That was my assumption: that the book was a fictionalization of real events. Reading up, I see it's straight reportage (and that there was an earlier novel based on the same events).
― clemenza, Saturday, 14 October 2023 19:22 (five months ago) link
the book is great but the last third where the author inserts himself into the narrative--understandably so, as he helped solve some of the underlying crimes, i can't remember the exact details--really took wind out of the sails for me. up to then, it had been an excellent read
― a (waterface), Monday, 16 October 2023 14:16 (five months ago) link
I'm invited to the press screening tomorrow night, but a 3:26 film on a Tuesday night when assignments are due at midnight is a burden too heavy to bear.
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 16 October 2023 14:20 (five months ago) link
I was actually disappointed by the Grann book, most especially the way he chose to structure it as a whodunnit when the villain of the piece seemed pretty obvious almost right away (and looks even more obvious in the trailer for the Scorsese adaptation). I did like lots of the incidental details about various outlaws, bandits and ne'er-do-wells, and I hope the long run time allows Scorsese to keep some of that flavour.
― Ward Fowler, Monday, 16 October 2023 14:25 (five months ago) link
Watching this tonight, thankfully basically blind and hopeful
― Peach’s burner account (H.P), Friday, 20 October 2023 00:35 (five months ago) link
Really, the best way to watch a movie.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 October 2023 00:40 (five months ago) link
saw this tonight, thought it was good but not great. I am not really someone who demands that films “center” certain perspectives, but I do think there was a certain incoherence to the point of view of the film: not nearly enough of the interior life of molly, and eventually as marty realizes he isn’t sure how to bring this out of her, the focus shifts to the internal conflict within earnest. which overall is fine — I’m not the biggest leo guy, but I think this is one of his better performances. de niro was also very good obv.
and while despite the 206 minute runtime the movie somehow did not drag…I still really feel as though a good 30 minutes or more could have been cut, leaving a still very good, still very long film
― k3vin k., Friday, 20 October 2023 00:48 (five months ago) link
doing some quick skimming of some reviews — I’m glad I’m not the only person who thought of PHANTOM THREAD!
― k3vin k., Friday, 20 October 2023 01:17 (five months ago) link
this might be an anti-cinema opinion but I couldn't help thinking it would have been better as a ten-hour series
― symsymsym, Friday, 20 October 2023 01:25 (five months ago) link
Blind willie Johnson montage the highlight of the film. Really ugly watching the first 2/3’s. Made the one gag in the film (“can I…. Can I talk alone to this man for a moment?”) absolutely sparkle with life lol.
It was long, but justified. The better half who is not a movie person at all and groaned when I told her the length came out enjoying it so that’s as good an endorsement as any that it didn’t drag its heels
― Peach’s burner account (H.P), Friday, 20 October 2023 12:04 (five months ago) link
Thelma Schoonmaker is the real star of this movie, I mean she's always been Marty's secret weapon obv but what she did here seems like more of an achievement than anything she's ever done imo
and the ending, wow, don't remember the theatre gasping like that since like, that one scene in Caché in 2005
― Murgatroid, Friday, 20 October 2023 13:06 (five months ago) link
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-front-row/martin-scorsese-on-making-killers-of-the-flower-moon
really appreciated brody’s interview with scorsese here. two important bits: scorsese’s confirmation that the relationship between mollie and ernest was intended to be sincere (the horrific things he does to her….uh notwithstanding) — hence the PHANTOM THREAD vibes I was picking up on. also, apparently leo was originally planning on playing the FBI guy and it was his idea to play ernest
― k3vin k., Friday, 20 October 2023 22:27 (five months ago) link
This was big and at times felt maybe too unwieldy for Scorsese but I thought it was good. The three central performers true MVPs. Some of the supporting performances (and Brendan Fraser's, sadly!) seemed way too amateurish or stilted. Gorgeous production design by Jack Fisk! And, yes, Thelma S. rocked this one as always.
― SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 20 October 2023 22:51 (five months ago) link
Is Jesse Plemons one of the three centrals or supporting? I always like him.
― clemenza, Friday, 20 October 2023 23:10 (five months ago) link
I'd say supporting.
― SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Friday, 20 October 2023 23:15 (five months ago) link
Acting was great all round, some of those leo faces in the final 1/3rd where just impressive physiognomic events! Love seeing an actor frown for 3+ hrs
The final engagement between Molly and Ernest is what my mind goes to the next morning. A rote, stereotypical kind, of scene this movie stayed away from to that point, but that is to the scenes benefit and I think Marty was able to put some truth into it that it wouldn't have got from a worse (or shorter!) movie that stressed it too much as a moment of immense meaning.
― Peach’s burner account (H.P), Friday, 20 October 2023 23:26 (five months ago) link
I guess another film this reminded me of was THE NEW WORLD, although I have to think a little more about why and whether that makes sense
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:04 (five months ago) link
and maybe not so much ‘reminded me of’ but led me to wonder what malick might have done with it. not that he necessarily would be next in line to tell this story
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:13 (five months ago) link
You gotta laugh that Scorscese is just making the exact same movie in different decades (in both senses). If this was not based on a true story it would be unbelievable that he's just doing Casino/The-Irishman/etc. in the 20's
― Peach’s burner account (H.P), Saturday, 21 October 2023 00:18 (five months ago) link
There are a lot of differences tbf but yeah this is a Marty Crime Story. There was one particular 10 minute section (you probably know what I mean that was straight up Goodfellas). I thought it was good but not amazing and even though its based on a true story I felt it required a lot of big asks from the audience.
So many great faces in this movie though, Louis Cancelmi's weird rhomboid features, Brendan Fraser's outraged Stay Puftness, Tommy Schultz's cauliflower ears, Ty Mitchell's weatherbeaten dirt road of a face
― Saxophone Of Futility (Michael B), Saturday, 21 October 2023 14:03 (five months ago) link
didn’t really like fraser at all in this one tbh
― k3vin k., Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:08 (five months ago) link
Didn't really like him in the one that just won him an Oscar tbh
― Dwigt Rortugal (Eric H.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:20 (five months ago) link
Made the one gag in the film (“can I…. Can I talk alone to this man for a moment?”) absolutely sparkle with life lol.
imho the best gag was (i forget the exact quotes) when the lawyer tells Louis Cancelmi "what you're asking me makes it sound like you plan to adopt your children and then murder them...?" and Cancelmi is like "well no, not if I cant inherit their money!"
― waste of compute (One Eye Open), Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:51 (five months ago) link
not a leo fan but liked him in this, although it got tougher for me in the last third or so when he's given less & less to do other than just squint and make that one face that he always makes
― waste of compute (One Eye Open), Saturday, 21 October 2023 16:55 (five months ago) link
See, that line came after the “speak to this man alone”, so the surprise of a gag in this ugly ugly movie had already been spoiled.
I wish he always had those teeth
― Peach’s burner account (H.P), Saturday, 21 October 2023 23:54 (five months ago) link
Nothing to add other than I thought this as really great.
― Robert Adam Gilmour, Sunday, 22 October 2023 00:12 (five months ago) link
and the ending, wow, don't remember the theatre gasping like that since like, that one scene in Caché in 2005― Murgatroid, Friday, October 20, 2023 8:06 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
― Murgatroid, Friday, October 20, 2023 8:06 AM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink
I feel strange asking this, because I finished watching the movie an hour ago, but what are you referring to? What did people gasp at? Jack White trying to do a Native American accent?
― JRN, Sunday, 22 October 2023 21:22 (five months ago) link
I assume the radio play? i was wondering what was meant by that too
― k3vin k., Sunday, 22 October 2023 21:52 (five months ago) link
Amazing movie, and I’m convinced Brendan Fraser’s performance was modeled on wrestling manager Paul Heyman.
― Chris L, Monday, 23 October 2023 00:37 (five months ago) link
Saw this today. I'm in the verygood-not-great camp and the he's-made-this-movie-before camp. But it's very well made! I'm glad it exists.
― that's when I reach for my copy of Revolver (WmC), Monday, 23 October 2023 01:19 (five months ago) link
My wife is the director of the native studies program at a university and they ended up buying out two theaters on opening night and inviting anyone from local communities to come for free.
The crowd I saw this with was like 90% indian representing some 20 different tribes, some of whom were absolutely old enough to relate the boarding school lament at the begging. The thing that stood out the most was when the owl showed up and there was an audible gasp from the crowd.
― joygoat, Monday, 23 October 2023 18:48 (five months ago) link
Jack White trying to do a Native American accent?
*frowns, checks Wikipedia* Oh THAT'S who he was playing. I was trying to place him! (But it was Isbell I was fucking racking my brains over, I was all "I KNOW THIS FUCKING FACE, FROM WHERE THOUGH." And who knew Pete Yorn could actually do something good or at least good enough.) Didn't recognize Sturgill Simpson at all and that's two movies in the course of four, five weeks now where I didn't realize that was him in a key role! Not a bad job in either.
Anyway, yes, I'm in the 'does feel of a piece with his work but it works' camp, happy to have seen it on the big screen. Posthumous kudos to Robbie Robertson, that was a sharp and well placed score too. Give Gladstone the Oscar and call it a day.
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 24 October 2023 03:41 (five months ago) link
Jason Isbell was great in this
― #1 García Fan (H.P), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 04:36 (five months ago) link
I'm relieved Scorsese and co-writer Eric Roth didn't focus on the Bureau of Investigation procedural stuff. THAT would've been tiresome.
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 19:59 (five months ago) link
― waste of compute (One Eye Open),
His crying scene in the last 25 minutes was, against every one of my expectations, the most convincing I've seen from a major American star in years. It felt earned.
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 20:01 (five months ago) link
armond unsurprisingly not a fan
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 24 October 2023 20:16 (five months ago) link
I won't give him the click. Does he denounce Scorsese for surrendering to #woke by showing In-juns?
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 20:17 (five months ago) link
Close. For surrendering to #woke by hating America
― Dwigt Rortugal (Eric H.), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 20:19 (five months ago) link
But the goddamn Bureau of Investigation look like heroes for the first time in forever.
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 20:20 (five months ago) link
"Bah, big gov't, blah blah blah"
― Dwigt Rortugal (Eric H.), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 20:48 (five months ago) link
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, October 24, 2023 4:17 PM (forty-seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
one of the great things about letterboxd is his reviews are pasted there
― k3vin k., Tuesday, 24 October 2023 21:06 (five months ago) link
Odd definition of "great," but that's true, Armond's barely coherent, clearly never-edited reviews are indeed posted on Letterboxd by someone, albeit more sporadically these days
― Dwigt Rortugal (Eric H.), Tuesday, 24 October 2023 21:12 (five months ago) link
Devery Jacobs (of Reservation Dogs goes IN:
Being Native, watching this movie was fucking hellfire. Imagine the worst atrocities committed against yr ancestors, then having to sit thru a movie explicitly filled w/ them, w/ the only respite being 30min long scenes of murderous white guys talking about/planning the killings ... It must be noted that Lily Gladstone is a an absolute legend & carried Mollie w/ tremendous grace. All the incredible Indigenous actors were the only redeeming factors of this film. Give Lily her goddamn Oscar ... But while all of the performances were strong, if you look proportionally, each of the Osage characters felt painfully underwritten, while the white men were given way more courtesy and depth ... Now, I can understand that Martin Scorsese’s technical direction is compelling & seeing $200mil on screen is a sight to behold. I get the goal of this violence is to add brutal shock value that forces people to understand the real horrors that happened to this community, BUT—I don’t feel that these very real people were shown honor or dignity in the horrific portrayal of their deaths. Contrarily, I believe that by showing more murdered Native women on screen, it normalizes the violence committed against us and further dehumanizes our people ... (And to top it off; to see the way that film nerds are celebrating and eating this shit up? It makes my stomach hurt.) I can’t believe it needs to be said, but Indig ppl exist beyond our grief, trauma & atrocities. Our pride for being Native, our languages, cultures, joy & love are way more interesting & humanizing than showing the horrors white men inflicted on us ... This is the issue when non-Native directors are given the liberty to tell our stories; they center the white perspective and focus on Native people’s pain ... For the Osage communities involved in creating this film; I can imagine how cathartic it is to have these stories and histories finally acknowledged, especially on such a prestigious platform like this film. There was beautiful work done by so many Wazhazhe on this film ... But admittedly, I would prefer to see a $200 million movie from an Osage filmmaker telling this history, any day of the week ... —and I’m sorry, but Scorsese choosing to end on a shot of Ilonshka dances and drumming? It doesn’t absolve the film from painting Native folks as helpless victims without agency ... RIP to Mollie, Anna, Minnie, Rita, & all the other very real Osage folks who were murdered over greed. Tobacco down for the countless Osage folks today, whose family histories have been marked by these atrocities. The pain is real & isn’t limited to the film’s 3hrs and 26 mins ... And a massive Fuck You to the real life, white Oklahomans, who still carry and benefit from these blood-stained headrights ... All in all, after 100 years of the way Indigenous communities have been portrayed in film, is this really the representation we needed #KillersOfTheFlowerMoon.
― Dwigt Rortugal (Eric H.), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 19:14 (five months ago) link
damn go off
― Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 25 October 2023 19:24 (five months ago) link
I thought the film was great, but I always thought Scorsese's greatest strength as a filmmaker was the way his films explored human pathology, whether it's individual or societal. Some of the recent criticisms that he just handles masculine toxicity is misguided and inaccurate because a lot of what he's explored goes far beyond that. And that's the biggest impression I got from this one.
There's a heartbreaking shot somewhat early in the film where it's the first time King (De Niro) is shown addressing the Osage. It's already suggested earlier that he's done his research of their culture and history, but it's remarkable to hear him so fluent and comfortable speaking their language. The camera then pulls out, allowing the image of King to retreat into a packed and festive sight of Osage and white Americans celebrating side-by-side, appropriately for the marriage that involves both sides.In effect, we're left with the harmonious sight of two different cultures knowing full well it's deceptive, part of a genocidal campaign by a man who's grown to know these people not out of kinship but out of unrepentant hatred with the intent to annihilate them. Given Scorsese's well-known love for The Searchers, it's likely he saw a parallel between King and Ethan Edwards's own familiarity with the Comanches - it's a fully realized idea in both films, but it has a bigger role here and becomes all the more impactful. I couldn't shake the feeling that it reflected the worst fears of any age-old conflict between two cultures, particularly of the most uncompromising individuals who argue for nihilistic actions because of their belief that peace and harmony is impossible.
I do believe that there should be films, hopefully great films, above Native American cultures that have the benefit of the experiences and perspectives of a Native American, it's a gaping hole in cinema as far as I'm concerned, but that's not something I'd use to criticize Scorsese's film, partly because this film is primarily about pathology - it's an ugly side of life and American culture, and as unpleasant as it may be, it's something that should be engaged with. You want to understand the world better and what it does to people, you have to be willing to explore the ugliness and messiness, and there aren't many (maybe any) filmmakers who do it as well as Scorsese. It also feels strange to criticize anyone for telling this particular story when it's something - as pointed out in the film - that was buried in history, a willful attempt to wipe away its memory as if to deny this wrong ever happened, that white Americans were still capable of this wrong decades after their conflict with Native Americans was ostensibly over.
That brings me to another thing I loved about the film - the ending, an artistic risk that worked extremely well IMHO. There's no getting around that this is still a commercial, Hollywood production made by an outsider to Native American culture, and Scorsese owns that fact, not only for himself but for film culture in general.
Also, I did not have an issue with DiCaprio as Ernest, far from it. I haven't seen his films in a long while so I came into this with a faint memory of whatever baggage he might have, and this is the best I've seen him outside of a charismatic "star" turn (in that category, my favorite is probably Catch Me If You Can). His physical and behavioral transformation seemed complete without coming off as forced or unnatural, and all of the shortcomings of his character (especially moral) were wholly convincing to me.
And Robbie Robertson's score was great, the best new music I've heard him make in a long while - I'm guessing he handled guitar (heard often at the start). But there were moments where I thought it would've been better to take out any scoring, like the first time Ernest enters Mollie's home.
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 25 October 2023 20:21 (five months ago) link
*about Native American cultures
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 25 October 2023 20:23 (five months ago) link
I believe that by showing more murdered Native women on screen, it normalizes the violence committed against us and further dehumanizes our people .
At the risk of trivializing the excellent points, this has been a complaint against film since its origins. I don't think Scorsese does -- most of the violence here is discreet and discrete. On the contrary: showing the gradual deterioration of Mollie under the insulin regimen registers the violence done to her by Hale, scientists, and the federal government ostensibly there to protect her.
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 20:27 (five months ago) link
The brilliancy of the ending is how he tacitly admitsd the subject deserves other films
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 20:38 (five months ago) link
great post, birdistheword
― k3vin k., Wednesday, 25 October 2023 21:03 (five months ago) link
thanks k3vin!
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 25 October 2023 22:45 (five months ago) link
Scorsese compares Hale to Ethan Edwards in a recent and very good interview in Sight And Sound.
― SQUIRREL MEAT!! (Capitaine Jay Vee), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 22:55 (five months ago) link
On the contrary: showing the gradual deterioration of Mollie under the insulin regimen idk if they’ve changed the formula between then and epipens becoming common but I took it as the poison or sedative or w/e added to every dose that was the problem, not the insulin
― vashti funyuns (sic), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 23:57 (five months ago) link
Not made clear.
― hat trick of trashiness (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 25 October 2023 23:58 (five months ago) link
I thought it was very clear; different vials, Ernest having that moment of putting the seperate poison vial in his drink out of guilt, the insulin coming at the start when Mollie needed to stay alive and the poison coming afterwards when they’d sorted out the rest of the family.
― #1 García Fan (H.P), Thursday, 26 October 2023 00:25 (five months ago) link
it did seem clear to me that providing the insulin itself wasn’t presented as intended to be harmful — but then again one wonders why hale would have helped arrange that in the first place, given his motives
― k3vin k., Thursday, 26 October 2023 03:12 (five months ago) link
Because a huge part of his motive is appearing the benevolent mediator between the Osage and white-world.
― vashti funyuns (sic), Thursday, 26 October 2023 04:56 (five months ago) link
because mollie needs to be the last surviving family member for the money to flow hale's way
― Animal Bitrate (Raw Patrick), Thursday, 26 October 2023 07:31 (five months ago) link
Thanks! I just read it - there's even a line I totally missed where King quotes Edwards - "As sure as the turning of the earth, we’ll find them."
― birdistheword, Friday, 27 October 2023 04:32 (five months ago) link
Saw this today, thought it very good. Strong performances. And really didn't feel long, it moves the story along well without ever seeming rushed. In re Devery Jacobs' concerns, I think all of that is true but also she's basically talking about a completely different movie. This one is really about its white characters, even though it's set in the midst of Osage culture.
I'd say it's best thought of as a portrait of white supremacy and what it does. It's about a specific set of people and actions, but more than that it's about the way racial/ethnic power and economic power reinforce and corrupt each other.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Monday, 6 November 2023 05:12 (four months ago) link
a small thing that made me irrationally distracted - did anyone catch that scorsese has two different cameos in this? his onscreen bit in the final scene, but also as the offscreen voice of the photographer taking the group photo in washington dc yelling "hold that pose president coolidge" or whatever he says? unless i'm mistaken? really threw me for a second. i know he likes to play with the form but imo you cant have two cameos as two different characters marty, its just too much.
― waste of compute (One Eye Open), Monday, 6 November 2023 19:01 (four months ago) link
it's a throwback move! he has a cameo as a guy watching Betsy walk past when we first see her in Taxi Driver, as well as his cameo as the deranged backseat passenger.
― omar little, Monday, 6 November 2023 19:04 (four months ago) link
He’s done a few cameos as photographers/cameramen. At a club in ‘After Hours’ and as a portrait photographer in ‘Hugo’ and ‘The Age of Innocence’.
Must admit I didn’t spot his first cameo as the photographer taking President Coolidge’s photo.
― Dan Worsley, Monday, 6 November 2023 19:42 (four months ago) link
I noticed that too. A conspicuous voiceover and he does have a pretty unique voice.
― Reeves Gabrels' Funko Pop (majorairbro), Monday, 6 November 2023 22:37 (four months ago) link
Me when Scorsese cameoed for the second time in Killers of the Flower Moon
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/mobile/000/033/487/rick.jpg
― Number None, Tuesday, 7 November 2023 09:24 (four months ago) link
I haven't read anything about this movie yet, not a single review, no aggregated quote sites, not this thread, but I didn't particularly like it. I thought it was pretty dramatically inert, even repetitive, at least until Jesse Plemons showed up (two hours in?) and the investigation kicked off, but even that momentum proved pretty short lived, imo, since the movie quickly settles into the dull afterthought grind of the courtroom stuff. I especially disliked the casting of De Niro, who I found endlessly distracting, since all I could think of was Jimmy at the end of "GoodFellas."
That said, I didn't think it was *bad*, just that I kept wondering what someone like Spielberg would have done with it, or even, I dunno, Spike Lee. That ending seemed like something Spike Lee might have done.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 8 November 2023 21:41 (four months ago) link
Going to see it this weekend, even though it’s gonna be a tough sit.
― The Triumphant Return of Bernard & Stubbs (Raymond Cummings), Wednesday, 8 November 2023 21:45 (four months ago) link
Huh I thought DeNiro was good — the most fully fleshed out performance I've seen from him in a long time. (NB I haven't seen The Irishman.) I sort of get the "inert" complaint, but I didn't really feel that. It never stopped moving and advancing the plot. I thought of it as procedural, in a true crime way — it reminded me to some degree of the approach Fincher took with Zodiac (a better movie obviously), there was a just-the-facts vibe to the whole thing which I thought was intentionally kind of understated. He didn't want to hit you over the head with what was going on, just kind of lay it out piece by piece. It's also why I think complaints about the lack of interior life of the characters are just kind of wanting a totally different movie — there's nothing very interior about any of the characters, they're pretty much all seen from the outside.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Wednesday, 8 November 2023 22:44 (four months ago) link
I agree it was intentionally understated, which I felt at odds with its run time, imo. At first I was excited, like, OK, this is going to be Scorsese doing Malick or something, but then my enthusiasm faded. I did appreciate the evil in plain sight aspect of it, but I felt that was pushed pretty far; after the fifth or sixth paternalistic but menacing De Niro speech gives to Leo, I started to lose interest. That said, I don't think De Niro was bad, either, just distracting. When he was getting Leo to sign that document, I just kept thinking of Jimmy in "GoodFellas" beckoning Bracco down that alley. "Come on, just do it, it'll be fine." Except in "GoodFellas" that underscores the shifting relationships and paranoia. Because Scorsese lays the cards on the table from the start, there's just nowhere for the dynamic to go, because there *is* no dynamic. Maybe a different actor in the De Niro role not imbued with so much baggage might have been more effective.
Weirdly enough I kept thinking of Hitchcock, specifically "Shadow of a Doubt," I don't really know why. Maybe something about the banality of evil? I also kept thinking of Cukor's "Gaslight," for more obvious reasons.
As a character I found Isbell's most fascinating. We might not get a clear glimpse of his interior life, either, but I at least wondered what was going on in his mind.
― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, 8 November 2023 23:01 (four months ago) link
I do believe that there should be films, hopefully great films, above Native American cultures that have the benefit of the experiences and perspectives of a Native American, it's a gaping hole in cinema as far as I'm concerned, but that's not something I'd use to criticize Scorsese's film, partly because this film is primarily about pathology
I think all of that is true but also she's basically talking about a completely different movie. This one is really about its white characters
Yes sure that's all true but for a group that's not exactly used to seeing itself prominently portrayed onscreen and with all the to-do Scorsese and co. made about working with the Osage and trying to be respectful towards their stories, rejigging the script to be more about them, I don't think "well, it's about the white characters" is a convincing rebuttal. Sometimes it's legit to criticise a film for what it's not rather than what it is.
I think DiCaprio was good enough to give a convincing portrayal of a sniveling worm, but not good enough to make you feel empathy for that worm as you would with De Niro in The Irishman. Speaking of, I thought he was good, and it's perhaps the first time I've seen him in something where I think of him as the character more than I think of him as actor Robert De Niro. Brendan Fraser was atrocious. Lily Gladstone easily the runs away with the film though, just absolutely magnetic.
― Daniel_Rf, Sunday, 12 November 2023 10:41 (four months ago) link
Shifting the whodunit procedural to the second half was imo the crucial decision. Insofar as the film is "about" anything it's the complex and often deadly interaction b/w whites and Osages.
― stuffing your suit pockets with cold, stale chicken tende (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, 12 November 2023 12:33 (four months ago) link
haven’t read the thread yet, but this movie was so. good. Indelible performance by Lily Gladstone.
― horseshoe, Sunday, 12 November 2023 12:51 (four months ago) link
not good enough to make you feel empathy for that worm as you would with De Niro in The Irishman
True but also the facts of the case are so bad that I would be suspicious of a film that did make you feel much empathy for that character. Which of course is the import of the final scene between him and Mollie, where he ultimately won't come completely clean even with her and she knows for sure there's no way to reconcile his alleged love for her with his actions.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Sunday, 12 November 2023 15:04 (four months ago) link
tipsy, I am probably guilty of letting the author's statements overly influence my viewing. In the S&S interview Scorsese is very explicit that when he talked to ppl who lived through this period amongst the Osage, one thing they were adamant about is that, despite everything else, Ernest and Mollie truly loved each other. So I was watching it through that lens, and I don't think DiCaprio pulls off making me believe he truly does. I'll admit it's a gargantuan task for an actor considering everything the character is doing.
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 13 November 2023 10:17 (four months ago) link
I forgot that DeNiro and DiCaprio first worked together 30 years ago!
https://images.jdmagicbox.com/comp/jd_social/news/2018aug04/image-189757-4nwr7xf0z3.jpghttps://media.vanityfair.com/photos/64a580e891601d9e135bb1e6/master/w_2560%2Cc_limit/Killers_Of_The_Flower_Moon__Photo_0103.jpg
― jaymc, Thursday, 16 November 2023 19:53 (four months ago) link
love that movie
― werewolves of laudanum (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 16 November 2023 20:23 (four months ago) link
Do you see him here in this courtroom? Will you point him out for the jury?
https://phildellio.tripod.com/gladstone.jpg
― clemenza, Friday, 8 December 2023 02:42 (three months ago) link
No implied comment here or in the last post; just images that jumped out at me.
https://phildellio.tripod.com/plemon.jpg
― clemenza, Friday, 8 December 2023 04:13 (three months ago) link
In my home! In my bedroom, were my wife sleeps! Where my children come and play with their toys. In my home.
https://i.postimg.cc/6pcC6DRx/window.jpg
(Not Scorsese x 2, but it did cross my mind.)
― clemenza, Friday, 8 December 2023 17:51 (three months ago) link
Not much to add about this movie, other than I enjoyed it and it didn't feel like it was three and a half hours long. Did anyone else think that the "meta" radio-show ending was a nod to Wes Anderson?
― o. nate, Friday, 8 December 2023 21:33 (three months ago) link
In case you haven't got three and a half hours, apparently Buster Keaton told the same story in 1922:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3E6pVHuoiU
― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Tuesday, 19 December 2023 15:58 (three months ago) link
Now you tell me
― stephen miller is not your friend (Eric H.), Tuesday, 19 December 2023 16:18 (three months ago) link
Two podcasts I did with a friend:
Killers of the Flower Moon: www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKnM8qyiYikThe Killer/Past Lives: www.youtube.com/watch?v=xF6A1u94G3o
Starting with the very name of this ongoing series--"What They Said," after the Kael documentary, not "What They Saw," which is what I call it here--I always laugh at how often I misspeak or mangle some fact. Sometimes I detect gaffes between the lines: when I refer to Seven's "famous twist at the end," there's a good chance I'm thinking of The Usual Suspects.
― clemenza, Sunday, 31 December 2023 17:25 (two months ago) link
Hmm. Putting aside whether these decisions work, on which, of course, we can disagree, what other American directors would've written and directed that ending? Or concentrated on the indigenous as much or more than the standard police procedural section? Also: thanks to Schoonmaker, his rhythms remain his own.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 1 January 2024 15:12 (two months ago) link
Agreed on the ending, don't think the film does concentrate on the indigenous as much or more than the procedural - it remains a movie about the white men screwing them over and not the indigenous community itself imo - though yes in the hands of many a director it would have much less on that community as well.
― Daniel_Rf, Monday, 1 January 2024 15:20 (two months ago) link
Paul Schrader talked some shit. Said Leo should have played the cop, and three and a half hours in the company of an idiot was too much.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 1 January 2024 15:31 (two months ago) link
It's not as if the film has nothing else going on besides Scrunchy Face -- if Schrader had said it about his own Raging Bull I'd agree.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, 1 January 2024 15:33 (two months ago) link
And I maintain that ending was very a la Spike Lee.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 1 January 2024 15:34 (two months ago) link
I liked DiCaprio in this but I kinda agree with Schrader. Just…kinda. Though I remember envisioning Plemmons as Ernest as I was reading the book. Seemed to fit much more. Perhaps Leo as tet another cop/detective in a Scorsese film may have been too much of a deja vu?
― completely suited to the horny decadence (Capitaine Jay Vee), Monday, 1 January 2024 16:49 (two months ago) link
And I maintain that ending was very a la Spike Lee.Both endings — the Spike Lee one and then the kinda-sorta Schindler’s List one — were my favorite part of the movie more or less
― stephen miller is not your friend (Eric H.), Monday, 1 January 2024 16:57 (two months ago) link
I feel like Mollie’s last scene in the movie proper and the radio show coda work in tandem. The coda implies that what you just saw was a dramatic piece created by outsiders, and Mollie’s last request on screen was for Ernest to tell the full truth. We don’t get the full truth, and her obituary leaves out the entire ordeal we just saw on screen. It’s hard to qualify her performance — which is excellent — but there’s an ethereal quality to it. I was left wishing we’d heard the story from her perspective, but we won’t because we collectively won’t acknowledge the depths of our violence and lies. So this is the best we get.
― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Monday, 1 January 2024 17:12 (two months ago) link
Ethereal is a great way to describe Gladstone’s performance; riveting whenever she was onscreen. She had an almost Bressonian control in her facial and gestural expressions here that seemed to exist apart from the actor-y goings on orbiting around her when she shared the screen.
― completely suited to the horny decadence (Capitaine Jay Vee), Monday, 1 January 2024 17:59 (two months ago) link
I truly did not like DeNiro in this and wished it was a different actor.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, 1 January 2024 18:32 (two months ago) link
I had more problems with some of the Supporting cast. Found some of them to be a bit too “amateur hour”, unfortunately. Brendan Fraser and the actor playing Rita, are two ottomh.
― completely suited to the horny decadence (Capitaine Jay Vee), Monday, 1 January 2024 19:05 (two months ago) link
Greil Marcus has a long entry on Killers of the Flower Moon in his "Real Life Top 10" column that just went up. I think this is perfect:
And it brings up a question it seems that Scorsese, now 81 and piling up one legacy picture after another as if building a monument so big it would cost too much to ever tear down--a monument not to himself, but to the glories of cinema!--can’t answer. His movies are automatically and almost universally celebrated. He is an American master. A titan of world film. And yet his movies fade. They don’t linger in the heart. They are triumphs of status--who would say no to a part in a Scorsese picture?--and big budgets--You say you need three hours, Marty? You got it.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 17:31 (two months ago) link
There's a career overview later in the comment--basically trying to locate a line where all that kicked in--that I don't entirely agree with but would be pretty close to my own.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 17:34 (two months ago) link
link pls
― that's when I reach for my copy of Revolver (WmC), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 18:29 (two months ago) link
Some of his Substack blog is free, but the "Real Life" columns are behind a paywall.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 18:34 (two months ago) link
And yet his movies fade. They don’t linger in the heart.
I don't know that this is true! He's alternated between punchy, quotable stories of corruption and hedonism that people do tend to remember and more pensive, contemplative works for years. I don't think I'm the Goodfellas-quoting type of guy, but I do think about works like Silence on occasion
― ɥɯ ︵ (°□°) (mh), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 18:53 (two months ago) link
after hours lingers in my heart
― ciderpress, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 18:58 (two months ago) link
What's the question it brings up? Maybe he asks it on his page.
Anyway I don't think that's perfect tbh, kinda offtm on his part. if anything one of the strengths of some of his recent films has been that they don't quite fit the obviousness of legacy pictures, can be a bit more difficult, and they're richer for it. The Irishman lingers longer than even something like Raging Bull (not a fully dissimilar film) because the full weight of time and a wasted life is so palpable. I would say he's a much better filmmaker in recent years than he's been for a very long time, since the mid-90s at least.
― omar little, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 18:58 (two months ago) link
I wonder sometimes who would have been the best replacement muse for Scorcese -- someone like Philip Seymour Hoffman is an easy answer but not really credible as a leading man (though how many of Leo's parts really required a leading man type? Hoffman-lookalike Jessie Plemons could have easily done Leo's role here -- despite being a "pretty face", and probably much better.) Maybe Matt Damon?
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:01 (two months ago) link
Like years from now, if people are still talking about legacy, they'll be going Kurosawa had Mifune and uh... Scorcese had Leo...
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:03 (two months ago) link
Raging Bull lives in my head almost shot for shot and line for line. I can barely remember anything about The Irishman.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:04 (two months ago) link
His turn to DiCaprio--outside of his clout in getting a picture financed and completed--mystifies me to no end.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:05 (two months ago) link
piling up one legacy picture after another as if building a monument so big it would cost too much to ever tear down--a monument not to himself, but to the glories of cinema!
what's the difference between this and Scorsese simply realizing that he can choose to make any movie he wants and these have been the movies he most wanted to spend his time making?
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:07 (two months ago) link
DiCaprio has been fine in his movies, maybe there would have been better fits out there for a couple of the films but he's been solid to excellent. I don't even mind the dodgy accents, it's all part of the full leo.
― omar little, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:13 (two months ago) link
all these 70s directors having come up through the Corman schlock mill makes me think in their heart-of-hearts, they actually would prefer to make glorious trash if not for the specter of legacy, so maybe Scorcese saw Titanic and thought, "here's my Rock Hudson" or something...
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:21 (two months ago) link
The problem with the Greil Marcus line is it jumps from something objectively true - Scorsese's films are gonna get good reviews no matter what - to a highly personal subjective asssesment that his recent films fade and don't linger in the heart. That may be true for Marcus and subjective experience is ofc an essential part of criticism, but the jumping between modes makes it pretty ridiculous imo - why in God's name should Scorsese have "an answer" as to why Greil Marcus doesn't find his films memorable?
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:22 (two months ago) link
Like yeah I'll agree that Irishman has lingered in my mind far more than Raging Bull, I'm sure the reverse is true for others, c'est la vie.
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:25 (two months ago) link
I think he comes out of a time when the best critics tended to conflate the objective/subjective. It's like whenever Kael said "you," she always meant "I." Isn't that a hallmark of message boards, too? People assert highly subjective opinions here as if they're facts all the time.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:28 (two months ago) link
People assert highly subjective opinions here as if they're facts all the time.
I see what you did there. ;-)
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:30 (two months ago) link
There you go...it's impossible not to. (I just did it again.)
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:31 (two months ago) link
Raging Bull has a few decade lead time but just on quotes/memes, it's fairly objectively more resonant than the Irishman, but I dunno if that necessarily reflects on quality, since I still think about Godfather III's "every time I thought I was out" line.
But makeup in Raging Bull vs makeup in Irishman feels like Irishman has aged much worse in a much shorter time.
― Philip Nunez, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:32 (two months ago) link
I actually do, often, go out of my way to include "if you ask me" or "I'd say" or other such qualifications, and sometimes I'm not sure it's worth the effort. But I do it anyway, for the very reason Daniel_Rf cites.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:33 (two months ago) link
Well the nature of message boards is such that whenever this happens, the next person can say "nah that's crazy talk" and the ensuing discussion can turn out interesting or lame or whatever but the premises get questioned. An essay does not allow for that.
I agree the conflation of the two modes was very common for critics of his era (and beyond, think it was still default circa gen x) and I'm not a purist about it but I do think it's ultimately lazy thinking and once you get to the idea that even the artist themselves must surely secretly share your assesment of their work, as I said, that's just a bit goofy.
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:39 (two months ago) link
many xposts
Well yes Raging Bull objectively has left a bigger mark as a pop culture reference point but I dunno that this is what Marcus means by lingering in the heart.
― Daniel_Rf, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 19:40 (two months ago) link
What the fuck is "heart"
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 20:10 (two months ago) link
― clemenza, Wednesday, January 3, 2024 2:04 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglin
And this is a perfectly defensible opinion. It has nothing to do with "heart"
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 20:12 (two months ago) link
Also, is there a contemporary film critic you can cite who's not Kael, Marcus, etc.? It's not like film crit is dead!
Ultimately it comes down to: "I love these guys' films from my youth, I don't want to engage what they're doing anymore."
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 20:14 (two months ago) link
And we all do this, btw, especially with musicians. But let's be honest.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 20:15 (two months ago) link
I would say he's a much better filmmaker in recent years than he's been for a very long time, since the mid-90s at least.
This is true even when I don't embrace every object. My heart finds his '80s comparably barren compared to what he's done now.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2024 20:23 (two months ago) link
It's weird seeing Marcus write that because he's had high praise for Scorsese's films before (most notably The Last Waltz for obvious reasons).
I actually like Scorsese's work over the past 30 years - none are less than interesting and all have something to recommend - and there's at least several that I'd hold up as great films, particularly in more recent years, but I'm not the only one who thinks his best and most memorable work spanned Mean Streets through The Age of Innocence. And I think Marcus is dead wrong - at least for me, Scorsese's work lingers a LOT more "in the heart" (or really the mind) than that of any other Hollywood filmmaker from that same time frame. He had good competition, but guys like Stanley Kubrick, David Lynch and Albert Brooks weren't as prolific. (The closest would probably be David Cronenberg who didn't really cross over into Hollywood until the mid-'80s.) It's definitely not just the '70s: without hesitation, I'd put Raging Bull, The King of Comedy, After Hours, The Last Temptation of Christ and Life Lessons among the very best films of the 1980s, regardless of where and how they were made.
― birdistheword, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 20:53 (two months ago) link
I think he's always effusively praised the early films, but his praise for anything from the last two or three decades has been guarded at best. (He did really like the George Harrison documentary.) Here's his career rundown from the "Real Life" column...I won't post anymore than that.
There are Scorsese films that stay with you because the desire is too strong and the loss too painful to forget--Who’s That Knocking at My Door, Mean Streets, Raging Bull, The King of Comedy most of all--is there anything since The Departed? Is there anything in the lumbering The Wolf of Wall Street--three hours--or even more intractable The Irishman--three and a half hours--and never mind the watchable and empty Goodfellas, the pointless Casino, the paint-by-numbers The Color of Money, the epic without a cause Gangs of New York, and the rest--that as something that years later can still make you find yourself alone and consumed by sorrow and lost hope, even shaking with a sense of clarity about life and what it costs, as in the way Spike Lee gives Edward Norton, Rosario Dawson, and Philip Seymour Hoffman only so much room to move as they struggle toward the end of 25th Hour?
So there are a few things I disagree with--love Goodfellas, think The Color of Money is underrated, not big on The Departed, didn't like 25th Hour--but I agree with his general point: the first four films he mentions are qualitatively different than most of what comes later. I know Casino is admired here--I like maybe half of it.
― clemenza, Wednesday, 3 January 2024 21:04 (two months ago) link
I was surprised how many people have tried to re-evaluate Casino as this great, underrated film in recent years. David Ehrenstein (possibly since it was released) has argued it's superior to GoodFellas. I've seen it three times over a dozen years, and the third time was this fall during a long flight to Alaska. Third time's the charm - I thoroughly enjoyed it from start-to-finish whereas before it was a slog once it got to the second half. I still don't think it's one of his best films - it breaks no new ground - but everything showcases his strengths. It's great how he details the entire casino operation, and it's great to see Sharon Stone delivering what may be her best performance in a movie that isn't complete schlock or burdened with horrible dialogue. It's not De Niro or Pesci or Woods's most distinguished performances, but they're all still in their prime and they're not phoning it in - they're all committed to their roles.
A lot of cinephiles seem to be fans of The Wolf of Wall Street (Richard Brody in particular, who believes it's a masterpiece). I'm not one of them, it would be a chore for me to sit through it again, BUT I do think it's misunderstood, it has what are good performances given the material, and I think the final shot is a truly great ending, maybe even the best Scorsese's ever done.
The Color of Money is fine, the merits outweigh everything that isn't so inspired, but even though I love seeing Newman as Fast Eddie again, the film doesn't even approach the level of The Hustler.
Gangs of New York can be a slog to get through, but I've seen it maybe four times now from start-to-finish, and I've grown to appreciate as a flawed but often inspired epic. There's a lot that's great about it, especially the first half, but it does feel like there's perhaps too much being packed into 167 minutes - I'm tempted to say it would've been better to break it up into two feature-length epics (with each part running at least two hours) but financially that would've been unlikely. The other shortcoming is the casting - DiCaprio seems too pretty for the role. I'm not sure if Daniel Craig or Michael Fassbender would've worked - and besides they were still unknowns, not someone that would secure the enormous budget they needed - but just physically they would be convincing as scarred individuals driven (and aged) by a lifetime of vengeance. And I don't think Diaz was very good - I wish Sarah Polley had gotten the role, I think she would've been far better.
25th Hour I had to see twice, and the second time I did (years later), it all came together - I think it's possibly Spike Lee's greatest work along with Do the Right Thing. There's a lot that seemed to linger after watching it the second time - Jonathan Rosenbaum said it made him really think about what it meant to imprison somebody, and I think he hits on something there. The whole film is swallowed up in grief and loss, both in the immediate present and the foreseeable future - it's hard to articulate, but I want to say if you end up becoming moved by the film, it'll give you a greater sense of how easily anything can be thrown away or taken away, especially what's most valuable, and how permanent that damage can be, in a way that only grows with time.
As for latter day Scorsese, I'd say Hugo, The Silence, and The Irishman stick out as the most personal films he's made in decades, and they feel appropriate for a filmmaker who's aware of his mortality and wants to say everything he can say while there's still time. He knew and befriended many filmmakers in his lifetime who were just like Méliès in Hugo, feeling broken and forgotten, maybe even regretful of their choices despite the work they created. He came very close to being one of those people too, or at least felt like it. The Silence is possibly the most revealing statement he can make about his faith and the work he's known for, and The Irishman is similar in that respect, making it clear why the director behind GoodFellas doesn't relate to anything about The Sopranos even when most of the world lumps those works together as if there were a kinship.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 00:38 (two months ago) link
What does "personal" mean here?
The Age of Innocence, Silence, and Killers... are the only Scorsese films since 1990 I care about.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 4 January 2024 00:47 (two months ago) link
Directly relating to himself and his own life. It's difficult for a good, much less great, auteur filmmaker to make anything that is really impersonal, but those films together speak directly to either his relationship to cinephilia - as a cinephile but also as a filmmaker, historian and preservationist - or his faith or the crime films he's arguably best known for (i.e. perhaps the most visible legacy he'll leave behind).
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 00:58 (two months ago) link
I feel like he's more personal, or at least more revealing at his dorkiest rather than most transcendent, like hamming it up as van gogh in the kurosawa movie he helped fund (pretty much the trifecta of him speaking as a filmmaker, historian, preservationist), or shilling for amex with tina fey. but maybe those things are more "marty" than "scorcese" for most people.
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 4 January 2024 02:25 (two months ago) link
I haven't gotten around to Silence, I guess I should. I tend to like Scorsese more in New York than anywhere else, almost all my favorite Scorsese films are in New York. And even less-favorite ones (Raging Bull, Gangs, New York, New York) still have good New York energy.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 02:54 (two months ago) link
One of my last chats with Morbius was about our proselytizing on behalf of Silence to our friends.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 4 January 2024 02:55 (two months ago) link
I remember he admired it.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 02:56 (two months ago) link
xps I don't know if I'd call hamming it up revealing - it's generally the side he typically shows in public, which to be fair is great. It shows he's been in a much better place long after some harrowing stretches in the '70s and early '80s. But when I wonder "what happened to the guy who studied for priesthood?" you see that in The Silence, and not simply because it deals with priests - his faith hasn't faded with time, and the complications that arise from it are something he still thinks about it, even if he's more at peace with it now.
That personal dimension aside, the film did have a lot to say about religion and its complicated place in politics, especially when it premiered in late 2016, after the evangelical vote sold their souls to a fascist waste dump. Look at the Falun Gong - on the one hand, practicing their faith in China is more or less an act of rebellion against authoritarian rule, and yet they're also publishing the batshit insane, far-right Trump-loving Epoch Times here in the U.S.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 03:09 (two months ago) link
Well as the OG Mormons showed you can be both persecuted and a lunatic cult.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 03:46 (two months ago) link
As I alluded to in another thread, I've been thinking a lot of Spielberg and Scorsese in tandem, as two virtuoso stylists and synthesists steeped in cinema history, where almost every shot and scene I suspect has its roots in a very specific antecedent. With one or two exceptions, at their worst their films are almost always fascinating outlets for their abilities, passions and references. Even when they don't end up where I want them, I can almost always tell where they are going and what they are going for. I would never pit the directors against one another, mind. More that they set a standard few other directors consistently reach, especially late career, given the standard they each set for themselves so early.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 4 January 2024 11:34 (two months ago) link
I feel like Scorsese lost it a bit between 1997 to 2011. Trying to ape genres that didnt really suit him like Shutter Island and Gangs of New York. The Departed was enjoyable but far from essential and felt like he was trying too hard to recapture former glories - like a later Stones album or something. I think hes on a roll since Wolf of Wall Street though and is making his best films as good as his recognised classics. Not sure Killers totally landed for me though.
― Saxophone Of Futility (Michael B), Thursday, 4 January 2024 13:27 (two months ago) link
Scorsese has alluded to this many times over the years without delving too much into the topic (for tactful reasons), but he knows he's taken on a fair share of projects that he clearly "had" to do in order to make certain films he already had in development, and there have been times where he realizes "I shouldn't have agreed to direct this" but has to power through and find a way to get the film done as best as he can because it's too late to back out. The Departed is very likely one of those - to me, it never seemed like a conscious attempt to recapture his past work because if you watch Infernal Affairs, it doesn't feel like they were trying to transform the material so much as streamline it and adapt it to a Boston setting with Hollywood movie stars. In other words, very professional in a pretty cold way. I'm not a huge fan of Cape Fear, which was another film that was brought to him (by Spielberg no less), but he seemed to make a bigger effort in transforming that material and making it closer to him. The Wolf of Wall Street was also brought to him - DiCaprio really had to push Scorsese, selling it as "no studio's really making a movie like this anymore with this kind of money - it's a rare opportunity."
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 17:27 (two months ago) link
The Departed is very different in tone to Infernal Affairs, basically a comedy, of a piece with Wolf of Wall Street. Maybe the "one for them" movies are the ones where he lets loose and has the most fun? To me, that's letting his guard down.
― Philip Nunez, Thursday, 4 January 2024 17:37 (two months ago) link
the editing and arrangement of the departed is neither professional nor cold imo
― ivy., Thursday, 4 January 2024 17:42 (two months ago) link
Wolf of Wall Street might be one for the studio but it definitely utilises the style of Goodfellas/Casino.
― Saxophone Of Futility (Michael B), Thursday, 4 January 2024 17:50 (two months ago) link
I think that happens a lot with directors when the stakes feel lower - one of Scorsese's most enjoyable works over the past 20 years is a Hitchcock tribute he did for a commercial:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjQrDn1IR0Q
One major element of Wolf of Wall Street is the visual subjectivity, which reflects how these characters have a warped view of life. It's partly what makes the last show so powerful and damning for me but Scorsese also has a lot of fun with that concept via the quaaludes gag.
Also to be clear, when I say "professional," I don't mean phoning it in - he never does that. He's always committed to doing his best, even when he has doubts - it's always going to look like a Scorsese picture. But The Departed does feel a bit cold to me. Funny, entertaining, but not a whole lot underneath the surface.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 18:38 (two months ago) link
RE: "I think that happens a lot with directors when the stakes feel lower," I mean relax and have more fun.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 18:39 (two months ago) link
* the last shot
if you watch Infernal Affairs, it doesn't feel like they were trying to transform the material so much as streamline it and adapt it to a Boston setting with Hollywood movie stars.
He didn't streamline it tho, he made it baggier — added 50 minutes and a whole layer of (tedious imo) Catholic framing to it.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 18:49 (two months ago) link
Yeah, if his last couple films are any indication, his movies can often use a bit more streamlining (imo). And coincidence or no, some of my least favorite of his films are the ones that cost the most. I think I like him best when he's ambitious and scrappy and not self-consciously over-inflated.
― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 4 January 2024 19:20 (two months ago) link
ok which one of you replaced his bio with this on letterboxd
https://i.imgur.com/KzFcyv2.png
― ciderpress, Thursday, 4 January 2024 19:32 (two months ago) link
Hah, yes he did! It's been too long since I saw either. But the Catholic framing, do you mean the sense of guilt? I remember that being in Infernal Affairs as well though it wasn't rooted in Catholicism. (Regardless, that part never made a strong impression either.)
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 19:44 (two months ago) link
Yeah, it was there in the original but rooted in personal loyalties. But Scorsese can't help letting Catholicism run all over everything (explicitly or otherwise).
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 19:49 (two months ago) link
It made logical sense when they transplanted the film to Boston - it's almost become a cliché at this point, so many Boston-based dramas I've seen over the past 20 years work the Catholic presence, whether it's Mystic River or (for obvious reasons) Spotlight.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 19:53 (two months ago) link
I don't mind it. I like when artists' religion and politics bleed all over the place.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:00 (two months ago) link
I mean, why else watch Scorsese? If I want amoral gangster shit I can watch a Warner Bros pic or Brian De Palma.
Very true. Honestly, it's hard to imagine his work without it, but if you somehow wrote that out of the scripts for, say, Mean Streets or Raging Bull, I don't think he'd ever make those films and I'm not sure there would be any real merit to them. Jake LaMotta truly does become nothing more than a cockroach, which is what the reluctant execs at UA initially believed when they were pitched the film.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:09 (two months ago) link
Actually, LaMotta is a cockroach. The Age of Innocence, Silence, Killers of the Flower Moon >>>>>> Raging Bull.
― poppers fueled buttsex crescendo (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:10 (two months ago) link
LOL, we'll have to disagree, but I always thought that was Scorsese's best film because of what he finds in that story.
And also to add what I posted before, I say that as an agnostic - what makes Scorsese (or Leo McCarey or Paul Schrader among others for that matter) so compelling is a lot of what they explore through their faith is universal. The struggles their characters go through feel very honest, something anyone can recognize or experience.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:13 (two months ago) link
Sure, the "Catholic stuff" is part of what makes his great stuff great. But in what should have been a trifle like The Departed, to me it felt like padding, like he had to find a way to make the story feel important enough for him or something.
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:16 (two months ago) link
(I don't like The Departed anyway, if it's not clear. It cracks me up that it was his Oscar film.)
― a man often referred to in the news media as the Duke of Saxony (tipsy mothra), Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:17 (two months ago) link
Yeah, far from my favorite, but it was such a big success that it made Hugo possible, which again is one of my favorites from recent years. I think he said it allowed him to pass on some projects he would've considered before as well.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:25 (two months ago) link
Hugo is the only Scorsese I havent watched!
― Saxophone Of Futility (Michael B), Thursday, 4 January 2024 20:51 (two months ago) link
I watched Hugo. It felt like Scorsese wanted very badly to make a magical kid's movie tapping into our sense of innocent wonder and he just didn't have the chops for it. It's way too heavy to get airborne.
― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, 4 January 2024 21:00 (two months ago) link
Innocent wonder is like a Spielberg fantasy, I never got the impression Hugo was interested in those sort of illusions. The heart of it is about a very bitter and broken man, and the war played a huge role in that. It's still uplifting to me because of the way they find their way out of despair. I don't doubt that's heavy, but that's pretty much why it left a lasting impression.
― birdistheword, Thursday, 4 January 2024 21:17 (two months ago) link
Nice New Yorker interview with LG
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/the-new-yorker-interview/lily-gladstone-is-holding-the-door-open?utm_source=nl&utm_brand=tny&utm_mailing=TNY_Daily_020424&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_medium=email&utm_term=tny_daily_digest&bxid=5be9da642ddf9c72dc27c25d&cndid=29476922&hasha=f0ef51a738774f8c6d037c5c6beb7573&hashb=7cfed5b1cbcbc6a71fea3c2fc2bc754ee2661f52&hashc=fdd5c8d249d863be98861f55628588b242a4ca01384346986428715bbfdd44db&esrc=CDS_OP
― Marten Broadcloak, mild-mannered GOP congressman (Raymond Cummings), Sunday, 4 February 2024 22:36 (one month ago) link
Lily Gladstone honored by the Blackfeet tribe in Montana:
Today the Blackfeet Nation celebrated Lily Gladstone Day. Lily made history as the first Indigenous person to be nominated for an Academy Award and to win a Golden Globe and Screen Actors Guild award for Best Actress in “Killers of the Flower Moon.” Her achievements are a beacon… pic.twitter.com/fwJCqH2U76— Ryan Busse (@ryandbusse) March 26, 2024
The poster, Ryan Busse, is running for governor against Greg "human garbage" Gianforte this year.
― Tahuti Watches L&O:SVU Reruns Without His Ape (unperson), Tuesday, 26 March 2024 22:37 (two days ago) link