Worst white man on the cover of the New Statesman's 'Great White Male' issue

An entire agricultural convention's worth of cockfarmers here.

http://media.tumblr.com/7975c8747ad941f9bfb10a135efa4933/tumblr_inline_mhibl5Sqyi1qz4rgp.gif

The field is strong. That the likes of Melvyn Bragg and Dylan Jones can't even break the top five...

as i said, my suspicion is baddiel, but persuade me

o wait there's tony parsons

That is horrific, the News of the World was shut down for less. Can I immigrate now?

Actually Jones might just sneak in at 5. But the champions league places are Amis, Parsons, de Botton, Gill. Not necessarily in that order.

I don't know who Tom Shone or Damien Barr are tbh. I confess to hating Jon Snow with every fibre of my breakfast.

Who's the best btw? Owen vs Rowan maybe. You'll all say Will Self :P

not saying that Baddiel isn't awful but in terms of this list I don't see what makes him worse than distinctly middling.

Oh no no, NO-ONE would say Will Self surely?!?!??!

(xp)

Bragg, Jones, Baddiel duking it out for a Europa league place- but how much do they actually want the resulting fixture pile up the following season?

Baddiel is the worst sort of snivelling 'liberal' apologist for ladbantz bollocks /xelab

Can never forgive Bragg for that piece on becoming a lifelong Arsenal fan at the age 40

Clive James has done great to finish top half here, but lacks the squad depth to really kick on.

... or forgive Arsenal either

I don't know to what extent it's fair to hate Stephen Fry for what he represents but fairness isn't really what this kind of poll is about is it

Parsons wrote the dumbest trolly 'advice' for the issue - basically 'history shows we're awesome so whatever' (NB not read the Amis bit).

lol @ actually reading this bog roll

Surprised at tony parsons xp

C'mon big tone you're better than this

He is?

No

Tom Shone's a great film critic fwiw. His book Blockbuster is brilliant.

Not the biggest Baddiel fan but "snivelling 'liberal' apologist for ladbantz bollocks" was his schtick 20 years ago, not now.

Toss-up between Parsons and Gill - both equally loathsome in different ways.

Parsons, even before the Ukip stuff. There's quite a lot of people I don't know on the list but I can't imagine anyone being worse (among these sort of guys).

existence of andrew marr's history of the world bothers me

want to vote de botton I think

Parsons is right in the sweet spot of dickishness, reprehensible politics and cultural worthlessness, some of the others have at least a sliver of a redeeming feature somewhere, although Matthew Parris is getting off pretty easy so far.

I know next to nothing about Alain de Botton and I'm not about to start changing that now.

alain de botton iirc is a ted talk personified

don't know if i can be arsed to run thru all these but i have a plentiful bile tank on standby at all times for Robert Webb, Alain de Botton and Tony Parsons. there are others equally deserving i'm sure.

can't think of any Archbishop of Canterbury since the Reformation who hasn't been some shade of cunt

rowan came so close to being rly good

but then fucked it up

What's wrong with Robert Webb? Are there two famous people with that name(or many more), just like David Mitchell?

just find Webb & Mitchell unfunny and smug to a degree beyond most of their smug unfunny peers i guess

Rowan Williams was about as good as A of C's get, which might not be saying much, also a big Incredible String Band fan

he's not in my top rank of worstness here by any means, just saying it's a well dodgy institution

Stephen Fry is just the worst.

How so?

I can't chose between Gill and Parsons, but i suspect they are the same person.
I can recall reading Gill in the ST Culture section, circa 90's after a female supermarket worker made a saucy comment about his daughters' name and his rebuttal was at least she won't end up working in a fucking supermarket. I stopped hate-reading him in the mid 90's but he left an indelible impression, especially when he was bragging about his young model girlfriend and relating how comfortable he was being a dirty old man.
Parsons for his laughable, self piteous lone dad shite and that execrable "hateful desert" 9/11 piece he wrote, all his shitty books and for constantly being the most off the money, hectoring cunt on the late show.

yeah I was split between the chimp parsons and gill the goon who shot a baboon

The sheer amount of odiousness on display is just staggering. I mean, really... ANY OF THESE just for starters

Martin Amis
Robert Webb
Stephen Fry
Tony Parsons
Alain de Botton
AA Gill

But I'm kind of circling in on Amis and Gill as the most deeply odious for me personally but it is truly a deep pit of hell (even though I can scrape up tiny modicums of 'well he's not thaaaaaat bad by comparison with the rest of the list' for Owen Jones and Rowan Williams but although I did enjoy a Will Self novel or four, somehow being in this company makes him more odious than I'd normally find him... funny how the mass of them together increases their sheer vileness.)

I don't know much about Amis, don't know anything about Botton, but what have Amis, Botton, Webb and Fry done to deserve being placed next to Parsons and Gill?

You could, maybe, I dunno... google them and find out?

Amis

Let's all interview this cunt and treat him like some demi-god because he just had another appalling novel published and had some very fucking expensive dental work :O=

Martin Amis and his... ~feeling about Muslims~ let him explain them to U. Stephen Fry and his "I'm gay, how am I supposed to know anything at all about what women feel about sex (but let me shoot my mouth off about it, repeatedly, in really gross misogynistic ways, tee hee, I'm so naughty)" or Alain de Botton and "let me condescend to you, badly, about architecture and morality and ~my feelings about porn~ and how the Pain of Being Bald gives me an insight into the suffering of the marginalised" and ugh Webb and just general smug punchability and gross ugh yuck.

I mean, if you wanted to get in a good point about unearned, inherited privilege and how only two dozen families control Britain politically and culturally and will do for the rest of our sodding miserable lives then "Amis" was a pretty good name to pick to get the point across.

I searched them and added the word "controversy" and some of that stuff did come up. Also something about Fry and Poland.

I had been aware of Amis having an English middlebrow king snob reputation.

Webb never came across anymore smug to me than the general bunch of Have I Got News For You regulars, which can be pretty bad but rarely odious enough to get close to Parsons. I thought he seems nice.

thing is i've not thought about 90% of these tosspots in a zillion years. actually thought that clive james was dead tbh

tragically, everybody on this list has their fans.

Clive James cheated on his wife. On a quick search I couldn't find anyone else.

Anything else.

I mean, I guess Webb is kind of a lightweight when compared to the full on tossitude of Parsons and Amis and Gill and Botton and Fry. But give him 20, 30 years and I'm sure he'll get there.

No hate for Matthew Paris?

Robert there isn't necessarily a direct moral imperative to hate all these - Amis's hardman racist posturing is probly objectively worse than, say, de Botton's clueless self-clowning dullness - but hate can come from so many deep, half-examined places, sometimes you just have to accept it and give it your unquestioning support and nurture

Like, I'm sure lots of these small-fry kinda guys individually (outside of that pentateuch of tosspots) are fairly unexceptional. But when thrown together en masse there's just this simmering sense of "ugh ugh ugh" especially when placed up beside that Perry article decrying the preponderance of WhiteDudes.

I am so out of the loop I had to google Matthew Parris, he looks like a bit of a mediocre shithead in comparison to some of these heavyweights.

There's a tiny part of me that wants to think "maybe that's the point, maybe we are supposed to think about all these unexceptionally odious tosspots who floated on in to their positions on their unearned WhiteMale privilege" but I actually think that would be giving the New Statesman too much credit. I think these were the dudes they were going to publish anyway.

had to be all white men including the 'with' section to pull that off

― Ƹ༑Ʒ (imago), Saturday, October 11, 2014 12:29 PM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Clive James cheated on his wife. On a quick search I couldn't find anyone else.

― Robert Adam Gilmour, Saturday, 11 October 2014 20:51 (14 minutes ago) Permalink

Clive James is in the final stages of leukemia.

ah, you win some, you lose some

worst white man posting on the worst white man on the cover of the new stateman's 'great white male' issue thread

Just finding things I like or don't mind too much. Not claiming these people have never done bad things.

Grayson Perry. Find him quite interesting and I like that he supports old crafts.

Stephen Fry. Liked his comedy on various things, enjoyed his documentaries on language and homophobia. Kinda like QI. Generally like him despite saying sexist things.

Will Self. Found him very funny on numerous occasions. Liked some of his articles and interviews.

Robert Webb. I like Peepshow (latest series was really downhill though). Said some funny stuff on panel shows.

Clive James. Seems like a good guy. My brother loves him.

David Baddiel. Vaguely remember him saying something funny. Seems okay.

Owen Jones. Disagree with him on a few things but I don't think he's a dick.

ah, you win some, you lose some

― Chimp Arsons, Saturday, October 11, 2014 5:11 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Are you happy he's ill? Why?

Well we shan't examine Clive James then because cancer instantly absolves people of any wrong they may have committed, and qualifies them for instant sainthood.

Clive James is in the final stages of leukemia.

I just dodged a cousin's funeral who prematurely died of cancer, bad shit happens to shit people as well.

toxic

aiieee, i do recall reports of him being unwell now, that's fucking rough

Clive James is wonderful.

anyhow, last time i read any james, he was criticizing the bbc for not giving balanced coverage of climate change, not enough representation of the sceptical pov, that sort of thing iirc

Heaven forbid, good thing he's dying I guess

I've only said critical thing about CJ on this board and am not a fan. What I objected to here was people actively scouting out reasons to hate him and others by searching their name + "scandal." It just seems dumb.

I realize the irony of the NS only featuring white male voices in this issue though. Seems like a different issue than looking for reasons to hate the writers individually though.

the only person i've seen googling reasons to hate on this thread has actually been quite positive about half the list

tony parsons "cool guy"

About 11,700 results (0.30 seconds)

A Special Issue on the Great WhiteStraw Man

Heaven forbid, good thing he's dying I guess

don't be a boob treeship

The reason I was using search engines is to find out why on earth these people are so hated that they'd be lumped in with Parsons. I've seen some ridiculously over the top hate on this forum (sometimes even close to the style of Parsons) for people like Carey Mulligan and James Corden (maybe I'd have google to find out why). I'm just sceptical that all these people are worth that hate and wanted to say some nice things to balance it out.

wow way to pick out two of the all time worst to compare to tbh

SEE YOU TRY TO PLAY THE BALANCE CARD BUT THEY SUCK YOU BACK IN

This is not a thread for saying nice things! (This is a thread for making spurious assumptions about the gender and race of the participants right now, but I'm finding that too funny to disabuse right now.)

i am wondering who'd have to be amongst this lot to comprehensively, no-questions prevail. corden seems a shout, and yet

bush obv but not likely to be asked to weigh in on cutural issues in the uk now is he

alexei sayles my vote but i recognise that's not likely to fly on ilx

Rupert Murdoch?

rod liddle ftw

Hitler

Stephen Fry

What I know about them right now: Corden annoys people. Carey Mulligan's acting ability is in question and she dates a guy from a band that lots of people don't like.
Are they Ukip supporters too?

oh man fuck rod liddle

who would be on a US cover analogue? philip roth prob? franzen?

'corden annoys people, hitler had some dubious politics' you do realise this is the level of minimising yr guilty of there RAG

Wait I've got it: Morrissey

Hey now he's not well

heh

whichever little piece of fucking shit comes out of the Amis scrotom next = literary genius, get the fucking Gillster to interview him :O=

I still love Morrissey despite his often idiotic politics (including Ukip unfortunately), some other daft opinions, excessive negativity and his steep musical decline from the mid90s onward.

robert do you ever feel you have too much love for the rest of the world

;)

I need reasons to not commit suicide. Excessive negativity feels cheap, annoying and self destructive.

Amis seems like the type of writer I'd like to completely dismiss but I often hear good things. I was surprised that Caitlin R Kiernan was quite a fan.

But I confess I laughed my ass off at the Corden Hitler thing

Maaaaan, the sheer joy of hatred is the only thing that keeps me alive sometimes! (I mean that quite literally.)

:( sorry for assoff

without an ass u might have to shit thru ur scrotum like marty amis

marty aims v carefully

My hate list

Parsons
G G@lloway
Michae1 M00re
Putin
S Palin, Bush, McCain
Michael Howard

There are probably more but I prefer to keep the list short

can see you've had run-ins with Michael Moore before dude, good idea to googleproof him

Never had run ins with anybody or their fans. Just being cautious.

Simon Cowell too.

I was on a very anxious death-watch when I heard the tragic news of Marr nearly expiring on a rowing machine, I literally cried myself to sleep that night because I love him so much.

Marr isn't the worst writer of history i've ever read but otoh i wdn't bother reading another of his books

I used some of his audiobooks when I was stopping smoking, wouldn't be interested in reading any of his shit whereas I have Schama stuff like Citizens queued up.

I mean maybe it might be interesting but i really loathe the guy.

Poor writing? The only dirt I know was the injunction he made about a relationship or something.

Matthew Parris, like years and years ago he used to be a Conservative MP and, in the middle of one of those periodic hatestorms about people on benefits (yes we had them even before 'THE DEFICIT') agreed to try to live on benefits for a month (or something), for some telly programme. Parris (who, lest anyone forget is supposedly on the left of the Tory Scumbag Spectrum) lasted about less than a week and then ran out of money and had to be bailed out by the film crew, he admitted that he had found it impossible to live on benefits but that it did not change his fundamental belief that the amount of benefits paid to subhumans was still to far too high. Shortly afterwards he had the good grace to resign as an MP and begin to make a lot more money as a journalist and columnist and I AM GAY and if you ever read any of his I AM GAY columns you will realise I AM GAY onc Tory vermin always Tory vermin I AM GAY.

Though, obviously, there are worse people on the list... but take yr pick of right wing wankers (that includes Clive James btw).

unusual way to come out tom but grats

I hope I get as much mileage out of it Matthew Parris, that's all I can say

Maybe a lot of the other names I didn't recognise were people who have been on the Grumpy Old Men series

xp I'm not matthew parris tom but ok

On 6 September 2014 he wrote an article published in The Times under the heading "Tories should turn their backs on Clacton". [13] "This is Britain on crutches. This is tracksuit-and-trainers Britain, tattoo-parlour Britain, all-our-yesterdays Britain. So of course UKIP will do well in the by-election. My aim, though, is not to deny UKIP its likelihood of victory. They make a good fit for Clacton. Somebody has to represent the static caravans and holiday villages, and the people and places that for no fault of their own are not getting where a 21sth century Britain needs to be going. Nor do I deny that we Conservatives, if we tried hard enough, could get some of these voters back........ I'm not arguing that we should be careless of the needs of struggling people and places such as Clacton. But I am arguing - if I am honest - that we should be careless of their opinions."

I'm not saying that wouold have tempted me to vote UKIP but...

I have some time (despite disagreeing on many matters, obv) for Rowan Williams and Clive James, though I used to find the latter's TV shows rather irritating so maybe absence, heart, etc. I know v. little about Owen Jones apart from that youtube pasted on the politics thread, which was pretty otm. And I used to like Fry but find him bearable in inverse proportion to his Twitter/QI ubiquity and national icon status, which is to say not very much at all for the past several years.

Worst, I'm leaning towards Gill, but when I feel braver I shall investigate some of the other nominations and references on this thread and no doubt become very angry.

(oh I must track down that Amis video games book from the 80s, it seems like some hilarious proto-Nathan Barley business and Amis is ashamed of it = instantly a billion times more interesting to me than his other work)

Amis

The reason I was using search engines is to find out why on earth these people are so hated

That's the thing, googling might not explain it - the ones we hate, we have learned to hate over a long period of steady drip feeding, drip by drip, drop by drop. There's not some static thing we hate called Botton or Amis - Botton and Amis are processes, complex processes that are inflicted on us.

Pin the insect on the wall dead and it'll seem harmless because you can't hear the noise it makes with its wings, you know?

It's just a pity that whoever wins this will never know they won it.

You could send them a message, but they won't get it.

Would've been more funny if ilxors on the whole had been more wild in life. No reason why some of them might not have been on that cover.

Then the vote could hurt.

I'm trying to think of a good way to hurt Martin Amis, but this isn't it.

Some ilxor posters might yet someday be famous and hated. And I will be on a future poll saying whatever good things I can remember about them.

How about the people who aren't white men on that cover? How do you all feel about them?

Margaret Atwood is grebt

How do I feel about the people who aren't white men on the cover? Mostly just that there aren't anywhere near fucking enough, and don't get anywhere near enough billing (and presumably wordcount).

28 named contributors.

20 white men.

8 women.

2 (possibly 3 at a stretch, but conceptions of Iranian ethnicity can be complex, and I do not know how Amanpour identifies) people who aren't white.

What's fucking depressing is that just under 29% female is, compared to most lists, institutions, staffs of British newspapers, actually really quite progressive. But when you get to the point where you're saying "a bit less than a third is amazing compared to the usual one in ten!" it is just grinding.

I mean, you do understand why people are so irritated by this thing? That it's not just the specific list of those specific odious men (though cardamon OTM about the steady drip-drip-drip of their odiousness). It's about how that cover was released at first (without the list of White Men who were going to be in it, clearly attached to the outside so as not to startle the readership) as this Great! Work! Of Social Commentary! It's about how Grayson Perry's essay was being bandied about twitter and social media as this Important! Statement! On Equality! And Social Justice!

Then you see the list of people he's commissioned to write, and it's like... THIS is your great commentary on equality and justice. These people. This is your great progressive vision of a future not dominated by the absurd, elitist preponderance of straight, white, middle-class men. THIS. These 20 odious white men, and a couple of women, many of whom are already regular columnists for the magazine, so you probably had to take them anyway, right? Your talk means jack fucking shit if you don't put your money where your mouth is.

This isn 't "decrying witchcraft while selling your soul to the devil". This is "Being given a platform to talk about Witchcraft, Devil-Worship and Occultism are destroying today's society, and then opening up your rolodex and writing blank cheques to Anton LaVey, Aleister Crowley and Madame Blavatsky"

It's a fucking joke! (And if it's *supposed* to work as "satire", an understanding which would require extending a huge benefit of the doubt which never normally gets extended to women or PoC, it doesn't really work, if the paycheques don't bounce.) Until I saw the contributors list, there was this tiny charitable impulse that thought "Well, I guess it's kind of noble that the straight, white man does actually use his platform to highlight inequality, even if he's doing so in the most unoriginal way, built on the labour of PoC and women who will never get that platform." But you see that contributor's list, that noble vision of his new society, the people who chooses to give the money and the platform to when he's making the decisions... SPARE ME.

I think it might be reasonable to assume it wasn't originally conceived as an issue about equality and justice, it was probably meant to be an issue about new masculinity / the future of white men, etc, and as a fig leaf to counter the perception that this is a tired, navel-gazing, exclusionary trope they got Perry on board to contribute a radical-seeming editorial and cover.

Voted Amis, should probably have voted Parsons. Gill at least seems to have some self-awareness about his own horribleness.

This isn 't "decrying witchcraft while selling your soul to the devil". This is "Being given a platform to talk about Witchcraft, Devil-Worship and Occultism are destroying today's society, and then opening up your rolodex and writing blank cheques to Anton LaVey, Aleister Crowley and Madame Blavatsky"

awesome

It'd be awesome - if white privilege and male privilege weren't actual real society-destroying things, unlike witchcraft. But I know convincing people that they are real is hard sell, even on ILX.

This wall! Let me bash my head against it! It's so much fun! And the ringing in my ears afterwards! I love it so much.

I don't think that contributors list is even remotely intended to be satirical.

(Branwell OTM btw)

It's an *extremely* middle aged list as well - virtually everyone here except Owen Jones is on the list on the back of things they did two decades ago at least. Only Will Self and Jon Snow and I dunno maybe Damian Barr are considered to be doing their best work now, nearly everyone else is here on the back of a decaying reputation.

I generally like Andrew Marr, Rowan Williams, Perry himself and some things that involve Robert Webb. I don't actually know very much about Snow's personal politics but unlike virtually everyone else here he's a proper journalist who has actually earned the platform that he gets and uses it reasonably well.

(And yeah I know Snow is a product of privilege as much as anyone on this list)

Oh, but it's ageist to point out how middle-aged and older white men dominate the Establishment! As that poor woman from Perfect Pussy found to her chagrin last week!

Only Will Self and Jon Snow and I dunno maybe Damian Barr are considered to be doing their best work now

They are? What work is Jon Snow doing now that is esp. noteworthy? (I'm biased 'cuz detest him)

(By the way, I don't mind Will Self all that much just don't think he can write)

What work is Jon Snow doing now that is esp. noteworthy?

https://magees.ie/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/FINAL-DPS-JIMMY-CHOO-MAN-AD.jpg

lol somebody had to

And what did Jon Snow have to say anyway:

The days of the Great White Male are numbered. So how should men live now? Stephen Fry, Mary Beard, Andrew Marr, Margaret Atwood and others offer their survival tips.

Jon Snow

Spend less time with other men. Relish the company of women. Exercise regularly with a dash of yoga. Bike to work. Stand on the head to fertilise the blood corpuscles to prevent baldness. Wash the system through with lashings of music. Cry when genuinely moved. He should laugh, and get in touch with his sense of humour – and if he can’t find it, crawl under a stone until
he can.

jfc..

;_;

(crying, because I was genuinely moved by that)

Is this whole issue a satire?

David Baddiel

Number one thing: challenging the primary sexism in the media, which is not porn, or page three, or sacking newsreader females as they get older, but employing images of women as decoration. This happens all the time. Check the front pages of all broadsheets and magazines, from the Times to the Mail. It is often, I think, unconscious, or just a reflex economic imperative, based on the idea that images of women sell. It should be resisted and men should – this might sound weird but I’m serious – join with feminists in calling for more men to be in these photographs.

Relish the company of women.

I sense a poll

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

^^jon snow relishing the company of a woman, biking to work and laughing/getting in touch with his sense of humour, I'm challenging you to find a photo where he is doing four of things from his list at once

that picture should have been on the cover rather than the Grayson Perry cartoon imo

"real effects of misandry"

1 result (0.37 seconds)

Spend less time with other men. Relish the company of women.

I know relishing the company of women is old fashioned, but underneath that, this is solid advice for men - if you're a man and you cultivate friendships with women you can get perspectives on things which an all male friendship group wouldn't pick up on.

how people still have only male friends?

*how many

Jihadi John?

Loads of people

Like, half of my male friends only have male friends. Think it has to do with where you work, family background etc

Not that they never ever encounter women but that they have a defined barrier with 'friends' on one side of it and 'women' on the other

i think that still happens, treesh - or rather i think there many men, young and old, who would be unlikely to go out and do something with one or two or more women as friends. They might share social circles, but I don't think that's the same thing.

I can't abide Mitchell and Webb, but here I guess Parsons, Gill and de Botton for me.

Perry gets a bye for me here - I like him. I have a soft spot for Rowan Williams - Arthur Machen Society member, and his book on Dostoevsky's not at all bad. I confess to an abiding fascination with Martin Amis, which doesn't at all involve excluding him from terribleness, awfulness etc, but does complicate it.

But in total the list certainly produces a feeling of dreary and unfruitful surfeit of type, a monotony of notional 'importance', a sallow congeries of grizzled old willies. a moribund cultural oligarchy.

what cardamon said.

But in total the list certainly produces a feeling of dreary and unfruitful surfeit of type, a monotony of notional 'importance', a sallow congeries of grizzled old willies. a moribund cultural oligarchy.

― Fizzles, Sunday, 12 October 2014 15:30 (22 seconds ago)

Yeah I totally get that. In many ways the whole BBC, Guardian, Independant etc "high" culture establishment is something I loathe and I was always opposed to so many things about their arts coverage. Almost seeing it as an enemy.
But at the same time I like a lot of those people (not specifically the people on the list) and I can't deny that that crowd has probably brought me a lot more than I would often think.

Also NME, Mojo, Uncut, The Word and the resultant BBC music coverage. I despise probably more things about that crowd but there certainly were good things in there too.

not to diminish the pain and suffering caused by the war criminals on this list but i suspect an american version of this issue would be unimaginably worse.

They are? What work is Jon Snow doing now that is esp. noteworthy? (I'm biased 'cuz detest him)

His reporting from Gaza earlier this year got him some props. Channel 4 News in general is better than any of its rivals at the moment.

I'm also led to believe that Self's last novel is his best, but I'm in no hurry to read it because my experience is that he's a decent short story writer and a terrible novelist (mostly because his novels are basically overextended shorts).

Dylan Jones is getting off too easily here, he's probably the platonic ideal:

n 1999, Jones moved to Condé Nast and took over GQ. He is credited with bringing in a roster of high quality writers including Dominic Lawson, Will Self, A.A. Gill, Ed Victor and Tom Wolfe, as well as taking the magazine in a more political direction. He notably hired Boris Johnson as the magazine's car correspondent. GQ was also the first magazine to feature David Cameron on its cover, soon after he became leader of the Conservative Party.

Jones was appointed Officer of the Order of the British Empire (OBE) in the 2013 Birthday Honours for services to the publishing and British fashion industries.

Parris was an actual Tory MP.

absent from the list but prob the guiding hand: Jason Cowley

like Perry and Williams. share fizzles' amis ambivalence.

voted Botton.

Can I cast a vote against ever reading anything by Alan The Bottom, and instead suggest that everyone actually reads A La Recherce Du Temps Perdu? It deserves its rep!
― Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Sunday, November 24, 2002 8:30 PM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I think about this post every time Botton impinges on my consciousness for any reason

agree strongly with an extended version, you are always better reading someone he is pontificating on rather than him.

I think it stayed with me more because of 'Alan The Bottom' than anything more high-minded to be honest. and I still haven't read In Search of Lost Time

Botton thinks it's a philosophising novel and tries to 'sell' it to you on those grounds, but it's not what he thinks it is

It's a neuroscience novel of course.

i liked 'war against cliche' and that clive james book has some dope essays idk.

issue seems like someone was trying to cover up 'white male butthurt' w/ 'clever' and failed obv

xp

he was ok about it when I told him that I used his name in a blogpost as a passing example of all that was wrong in british culture because it sounded like bottom.

(i mean I also explained that I thought he was bad for real reasons, it wasn't just 'bottom')

(he got in touch to complain)

Dylan Jones wrote Cameron's biography and paid him for his co-operation

Jones used to sell his review copies to me when I worked in a secondhand bookshop. He was very decent in person - and he got excellent review copies! - although he has obv been involved with some terrible things and people.

Will Self also once sold me a load of his review copies and he was a total arsehole, fwiw.

Thank you, ILX, because I thought I knew Britain's worst cockfarmers but then a thread like this goes and introduces you to a host of new cockfarmers you had little to no idea about.

I dunno. I kinda almost prefer the total unreformed unrepentant cockfarmers because at least you know where you stand with them. The ones who dress their cockfarming up in charm and ~being decent in person~, in a weird way those ones worry me more, like evil dressed up in a pleasant face gets much, much further and people are willing to excuse it and fall for it so much more.

James used to be alright imo – good essayist and critic, & I like the memoirs – but a pompous 'marvels of western literary culture' side of him largely took over. Still quite like him as a poetry critic - solid in the formal corner, breadth of reading, good to disagree with.

Conversely I used to hate Bragg, but now I only hear him if I download an In Our Time, so I am more or less ok with that.

I was optimistic when I first saw the cover - I like Perry & I think the liberal/fabian left can be v v hostile to anything that looks like the politics of cultural privilege or identity – it seemed a viable trojan horse. But really.

Ambitious establishment Tory types are always perfectly decent in person, they're basically trained from birth to be so.

Self is the only one on the list I've met (admittedly 13 years ago now) and I found him genial enough, although I suspect that may not always be the case.

I just read Dylan Jones' wikipedia and an interview from 5 years ago, and to be honest, he just gives me a serious case of the creeps. "Oh, my friends treated my joining the Conservative party as if I'd admitted liking Phil Collins" - as if it were only such a minor aesthetic quibble!

I admit to being a sucker for the Style world and I would happily read GQ in the takeaway next door for the beautiful suits, basically, and the Style but the odious and deeply conservative politics involved with the whole thing, and you realise that the agenda promoted within is totally deliberate and it's just fucking depressing. That subtle or not even so subtle creep of art school boys to the right as they age.

I'm also thinking about that thing upthread, of someone (forget who) saying one should save one's genuine hate and contempt for the politicians.

But when confronted with a list like this, one realises how much of it is down to the commentariat who present this hateful politics and polish the turds and make it all so ~palatable~ and even stylish.

yeah Jones is a particularly vile offender there – Osborne as politician of the year in the GQ awards for instance.

One good thing at least is Toby Young must be fuming he never got asked to contribute.

christ i'd never seen his list of books before. "The Biographical Dictionary of Popular Music" , oh man I have not read this but I strongly suspect he is no David Thomson.

(xp lol)

About 287 results for "new wasteman" (0.52 seconds)

Anything entitled "Mr Jones' Rules For The Modern Man" makes me want to smash things, and not in a sexual sense, either, just in a pulverise into tiny bloodsoaked little molecules until there is nothing left sense. :-(

& fwiw Ian Penman on Jones's new Elvis book - a couple of basically contemptuous paras about two-thirds of the way through:
http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n18/ian-penman/shapeshifter

Just curious - what are people's main beef with Owen Jones?

his valjean

or were people referring to dylan jones?

xp
to be absolutely clear all of my remarks refer to Dylan Jones – I like Owen Jones.

i have no problem with him other than his youth and success

Yeah, Owen Jones' only sins are to be a bit young, a bit hopeful and a bit idealistic. The Jones-baiting of the last few dozen posts is about Dylan Jones.

hmmm 'to be absolutely clear all of my remarks', i'm sounding v pompous there, think the list is infecting me.

ah good. i'm glad that got cleared up.

I voted for Alain de Botton but I've just discovered who Dylan Jones is and I'd like to change it.

One good thing at least is Toby Young must be fuming he never got asked to contribute.

Also Rod Liddle also Richard Dawkins.

Kind of curious though what Dawkins would have said.

Liddle was the other most glaring omission.

maybe something like Tony Parsons contribution to 'The Manifesto'?

http://www.newstatesman.com/culture/2014/10/manifesto-new-man-how-great-white-male-can-stay-relevant

What has the Great White Male ever done for us? Shakespeare and Dickens. Picasso and Matisse. Morrissey and Marr. Jagger and Richards. Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the worldwide web. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, the inventors of the new century. The men who stormed the beaches of Normandy. The warriors who protected us, the fathers who held us. Hemingway and Fitzgerald. John F Kennedy and John Cooper Clarke. Bob Dylan and Dylan Thomas.

White men, eh? What a waste of space!

I am not convinced that the Great White Male desperately needs a new male manifesto – the past thousand years have gone quite well for us without one. Here’s to the next thousand years, man!

you've got to be shitting me

fuck i should have voted parsons

you weren't shitting at all ;_;

Wow.

I mean, I typed out some more ~offensive~ responses like "go die in a fire" and "choke on your own vomit" or "go fuck yourself with a running chainsaw, Tony fucking Parsons" but realised that my rage is pretty impotent and the only real response possible is just "wow".

can't believe he missed paul weller and bobby moore ;_;

Here’s to the next thousand years, man!

The URL. How the Great White Male can stay relevant. Because this is the problem. The Great White Male is losing his relevance. This shit is beyond satire. I can't even get up bile or rage for this.

Tim Berners-Lee, the inventor of the worldwide web.

The men who stormed the beaches of Normandy and the nazis who bravely tried to fight them back

It's not his fault. He was married to Julie Burchill, you know. And living forever in the shadow of his more famous spouse, he is condemned to live like a woman for the rest of his days. How it must shrink his penis to contemplate it.

This is the position taken by most of these ghastly exercises - how can the white man adapt, how can we achieve social justice by modifying the white man's behaviour, how can white men become better white men, etc. The idea of taking a step back and letting others set their own agenda, have their own say, barely occurs.

How can the Great White Man keep the stranglehold of attention forever on the Great White Man. How. Let us debate it for the next two thousand years!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-LrdLC5OXyGg/TeKhp0mTcnI/AAAAAAAAAug/J1R5-6i7ENM/s1600/Whiteman.jpg

Most dicks are smaller dicks than Julie Burchill it's true

The men who stormed the beaches of Normandy. The warriors who protected us, the fathers who held us.

Never change, Tone. War, boxing, real men, East End, dear old dad, heroes, blah-di-blah.

Sadly in the real world he is in no way in Julie B's shadow. He's the one with the inexplicably bestselling novels and the inexplicably popular newspaper column.

shit, his new one (a thriller. With heart) seems to be doing ok - he'd been in sales decline since Man and Boy, was hoping he'd just sort of melt away

into a small sour puddle of piss

Now Tony Parsons v Julie Burchill would be some kind of awfulness deathmatch like the negative inverse of Daddy v Chips but I don't think I could handle the sucking chestwound of odiousness that would be caused by TWO polls featuring Parsons in SNA.

i missed this two days ago but it is a beautiful thread, apart from the minor save-a-white-man nonsense that only ever shows itself in threads about white men (really, when was the last time you saw someone be all WELL ACTUALLY THEY HAVE SOME GOOD POINTS THEY SEEM LIKE A NICE PERSON! about a woman or non-white person accused of being awful)

objectively someone like aa gill or tony parsons probably is the worst but acknowledging it almost feels like giving in to a relentlessly played and very deliberate shtick that's already got them way too far in life; i feel like dylan jones or stephen fry or alain d'arse still need to be told what unutterably dull cunts they are, gill or parsons would both be like "yup i know" and count their cash.

i missed all the twitter ethering but SURELY this must have had an element of satire about it? completely fucking uselessly played by the new statesman

yeah i assumed from the cover it was supposed to be satire but from the parsons bit, it's clear someone's got the wrong end of the stick.

If everyone on the cover was polled I would have defended Bonnie Greer (she's the most familiar to me of the women), Mary Beard and Margaret Atwood.

when was the last time you saw someone be all WELL ACTUALLY THEY HAVE SOME GOOD POINTS THEY SEEM LIKE A NICE PERSON! about a woman or non-white person accused of being awful

Oh come on, nobody's defending the people who have been specifically accused of being awful: Gill, Parsons, etc. It's just been pointed out that some of the people in this poll don't appear to be awful, eg, I can't work out what Clive James's great sin is meant to be. God forbid we should consider people in the round instead of branding them as unforgivable shits for all time on the basis of an ILX poll. You're better than this Lex. I hope.

Argh. The wilful level of misunderstanding.

Not wilful. I'm prepared to accept dim.

Who gets "the benefit of the doubt". Who gets the pleas to be "considered in the round". Who gets the ~wiggle room~.

Great White Men.

Certainly not Lex, or me, or people who aren't Straight White Men. No, we get the patronising little "you're better than this" and the accusations of "beefing" if we dare to be anything less than 100% positive of the actions of the great white, straight white men.

The point, you are proving it.

I like Margaret Atwood

i'm inclined to say that James became a willfully pompous bore but there is a strain of that even in his early TV criticism. that said, he is also capable of self-reflection and genuine affinity for popular culture and he's nowhere the front rank of uselessness in this list

yeah clive james rap sheet = mocking foreign tv (by extension foreigners? it's been a long time), air of smugness/pomposity, bit of lech/crepe sometimes, drifted into being a conservative cultural critic. pretty minor league in this company.

I suspect that the New Statesman has trolled their contributors by not giving them a good steer on what was needed (ensuring some pretty random and trivial responses) - and then trolled their readership by printing them.

xp Yeah that must be what it is. You caught me red-handed. Perceptive as ever.

Good grief.

Was rereading first two volumes of Clive James' memoirs over the summer and was pleased to discover how rich and luminous they remain - the one about his youth in Australia like stories told from another planet, just glowing with how different the world of his youth was from the world he know existed within, the second volume conjuring an almost physical sense of how grotty and damp and sepia-toned pre-Beatles Britain was, both volumes full of hilarious tales well told, and characterised by an impressive and moving sense of regret at how much of a fool he'd been when young, how much of a fool he doubtless remains. was also very much moved by his recent poem about the plant at his daughter's house, the one about death. as mentioned above, i think some of his TV shows could be smug and condescending in places, but I also think he's quite insightful elsewhere, about other things, and also very droll - perhaps that's just his writers, but...

everyone else is terrible, I guess, though I don't really get what Robert Webb's done that's so very wrong, tbh, though I only really know him from Peep Show.

I just put every dude on the poll for the sake of completeness, some of these people are basically fine and deserving of better company than this.

Yeah, that's what I figured, Matt - was more referring to the hate he's stirred in this thread, and was genuinely curious how he'd gotten so many goats so much.

Robert Webb, his pal slightly annoys me.

Good grief indeed.

It's really kind of predictable at this point.

Alex comes in and says something kinda over the top and funny about something he finds irritating, because that's what Alex does to vent his frustration. And without fail, RM/RM turns up a bit later and instead of just rolling his eyes and going "Oh, it's Alex being typically over the top, but his irritation on this subject might have some justification" he insists on going on like it's his ~personal burden~ to school Alex in How To Behave Online.

And maybe I haven't learned when not to say something, and maybe I'm too loyal to people I consider friends (who often stick up for me). But apparently if I notice this pattern of behaviour, and instead of just quietly thinking "oh god it's just RM/RM beefing on Lex again" to myself, I say something: that's because I'm an inherently malevolent, evil person who also has a personal agenda against RM/Rm specifically - not because I'm sticking up for a friend, not because I understand the justification behind Alex's frustration and irritation, not because RM/RM started beefing again. It's because I'm a ~bad person~. Yup.

I could just say "Hey, you know what, let's just not do this again." But apparently, even if I say that, apparently that is ~me forbidding RM/RM to ever speak to him again~ rather than me admitting "this is a pointless and frustrating exercise for all of us, let's not go there."

I will regret it if I hit submit post; I will regret it if I don't hit submit post.

If I'm a ~bad person~ either way, I might as well do the thing.

Who knows which is worse? All those white men on the cover of New Statesman look alike to me.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8b/Moby_Dick_final_chase.jpg

isn't the idea of a poll like this to rile up white men by making them realize how much they hate being lumped in with other people who share only superficial traits with them and by so doing forcing them to acknowledge that it has been their luxury, as white men, to not have had this happen to them all along? that privilege has allowed them to have their multidimensionality remain unquestioned to a degree minorities could only dream of? if that was the idea, it's a good exercise, but you can't be surprised when people react as expected, by bristling at the possibility that they too could be subject to crude generalizations. i honestly can't help but be suspicious of white men who would feel totally cool about this and join in the chorus of people describing all members of the white male literary establishment as shits due to their white maleness. if you're into social justice you want to extend to privilege to not be objectified to everyone, not just strip it away from certain people, right? unless the latter is tactically important to the struggle... i tend to not think it is, but then again of course i would because i am a white male.

if this is just about venting about the ubiquity of male voices in a way that is cathartically unrestrained i get it and i would never resent someone for indulging in that kind of activity. but again, the fact that white males might pipe in to say "hey wait a second, this isn't fair!' is to be expected, if the thread concept is supposed to be unfair, rather for rhetorical or cathartic effect. right?

Treeship, I've got a great song for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPTXVqETBM4

Why would you deny the simple unadulterated joy of scientifically determining whether Tony Parsons is a greater cockfarmer than Martin Amis?

was waiting for this thread to get good

Basically the magazine we're talking about is not a very serious, and not a very successful, attempt to talk about the social issue of white men's dominance in the world - this thread seems like it's good for lots of stray observations, but not sure if it can support a proper discussion about the white men's dominance because we're all riffing off a fairly weak starting point, i.e. the special issue of a magazine.

For this reason I think you lot shouldn't all start falling out with each other in this thread.

ITT

Treeship, get some new fucking software you insufferable, smug boring prick.

the chorus of people describing all members of the white male literary establishment as shits due to their white maleness

where is this chorus because it isn't itt

guys this was a woeful clusterfuck in which nothing actually truly objectionable* was posited from sj cru nor the side of cool logical reason mansplainers and all was certainly well within limits of previous clusterfucks on same topic except maybe this one was p well justified by excellent trolling from new statesman (also lol new wasteman) so tip of cap to the cru but idk what the fuck the fuss on other threads was about this hasn't delivered. c+

*xelab doesnt count ffs

xelab isn't half the poster treesh is. he doesn't even reply to his own ask thread!

all excellent points

Relentless roffling at DJP's tune for Treesh tbf

fwiw my post wasnt intended to be some kind of defense of amis or james as human beings, just meant that was the extent of my limited contact w/ either—i was more curious what the story was as far as them sucking or w/e just bc i am not familiar

google is mostly ppl discussing their literary merits or whatever from what i cd tell

I am a self confessed shit poster, that is why I don't entertain a vanity thread Mordy. I am just responding to that felling whiff of flurry that comes off so many posts on this thread.

Rly felt like the Jon Snow jpg was the highlight here.

xp Last post itt from me but the context of my interactions with Lex on ILX is that we're friends IRL. I like him a lot but we disagree on a few things. So if we go back and forth on here sometimes it's not beef. I hope it doesn't piss him off and if it does then I hope he'll tell me.

i honestly can't help but be suspicious of white men who would feel totally cool about this and join in the chorus of people describing all members of the white male literary establishment as shits due to their white maleness.

http://funnytoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Trust-nobody.jpg

Can forgive overseas posters for not fully comprehending quite how awful most members of this rogues gallery are.

heh

you refer to the brit posters ITT of course

this was clive james' column on global warming, and it's all basically a really long-winded exercise in reiterating the two fundamental claims of climate skepticism: (1) there is no scientific consensus, and (2) the world is not actually getting hotter anyway so what's all the fuss about. how much importance you place on where someone stands on climate change is going to vary, but for me at the time it seemed to be a pretty good indicator of that person's general stance on issues of social justice on a global level, bearing in my mind that it's likely to be the poorest people that suffer the worst consequences. maybe that's an immature or superficial reason for writing someone off - i'd probably take that criticism on the chin. that aside, as a piece of writing it's not especially entertaining or enlightening, and does that whole smugly dismissive thing to demonstrate his vast erudition on a subject that frankly he doesn't actually seem to grasp the basics of.

bearing in my mind

so that was my gripe with him, but there are far worse men on this horrible list

Can forgive overseas posters for not fully comprehending quite how awful most members of this rogues gallery are.

― Wristy Hurlington (ShariVari), Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:58 AM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i'm willing to concede it. my post was overlabored and concern-trolling and motivated mostly by reading a beautiful poem written by dying writer clive james last week. it seemed dehumanizing to put him, and possibly the other writers here whom i haven't read, among the likes of right wing tabloid journalists as instances of the "great white male." i realize it is no more dehumanizing than myriad other things that lump women or minorities together in a way that irons out the differences among them, and i said that this poll might be good if the goal of it was just to make that very point.

Ugh, that's pretty ick and disappointing.

xp

That poem Treeship mentions is remarkable.

James has written, presented etc. scores of amazing things and is allowed a crank moment or several

1.Parsons
2.Amis
3.de Botton
4.Jones,D
5.Gill
6.Baddiel
7.Bragg
8.James
9.Parris
10.Marr
11.Fry
12.Webb
13.Parr
14.Williams
15.Perry
16.Self
17.Snow
18.Jones,O

dunno who Shone and Barr are, a scan of their wikipedia entries indicates they wouldn't trouble the top ten here, they'd likely slot in somewhere between Parr and Self.

That poem Treeship mentions is remarkable.

yeah, i will try and read that

it is short!

feel like most days we're all somewhere between par and self nest pas

Your death, near now, is of an easy sort.
So slow a fading out brings no real pain. Breath growing short
Is just uncomfortable.
You feel the drain
Of energy, but thought and sight remain:

Enhanced, in fact. When did you ever see
So much sweet beauty as when fine rain falls
On that small tree
And saturates your brick back garden walls,
So many Amber Rooms and mirror halls?

Ever more lavish as the dusk descends
This glistening illuminates the air.
It never ends.
Whenever the rain comes it will be there, Beyond my time, but now I take my share.

My daughter’s choice, the maple tree is new. Come autumn and its leaves will turn to flame. What I must do Is live to see that.
That will end the game
For me, though life continues all the same:

Filling the double doors to bathe my eyes,
A final flood of colors will live on
As my mind dies,
Burned by my vision of a world that shone
So brightly at the last, and then was gone.

thanks, rm/rm

clive james rap sheet = mocking foreign tv

With no little irony, British TV (best in the world, like the Premiership) ended up copying many of the programmes Clive used to snigger at weekly and, tbh, I sniggered along with him. Seem to remember some Islamophobic harrumphing from him too, to sit alongside the climate change denial, but I would dismiss that as old geezer talk.

I think James' defining political characteristic is a complete distrust of ideology which, effectively, reverts back to conservatism but he's outside of the Europa League placings in this company.

His book-length ode to Prince Charles, and his subsequent 'friendship' with Diana, was pretty cringey

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Charles-Charmings-Challenges-Pathway-Throne/dp/0224019546

I might quibble about individual placements in BB's list but the top two are right and everyone is broadly in the right part of the list. Matthew Parris is too low though.

i've always just found clive james pompous, boring, fake-erudite...very fitting that even in this list he's bang in the middle of the road. obv far from the least defensible, but tbh if you're looking at this list in this context and your reaction is to find the "least defensible" you're doing it wrong. (if i wanted to defend anyone: owen jones (albeit probably only cuz i know him & the first chapter of chavs (is it worth reading his new one??)), will self, jon snow.) i think what gets me about this list isn't so much the outright objectionable cunts like gill and parsons but the relentless AVERAGENESS of the bulk of these dudes: they're masters of the Great White Male tone of voice/writing/expression and of using it to disguise innately mediocre levels of talent and insight.

(i mean, in terms of writing style, aa gill is probably one of the most gifted people here. he's a terrible person but i can see why he's been successful. alain de botton? david baddiel? dylan jones? robert webb? AVERAGE)

(would also be interesting to chart the careers of all of these people and see how much they owe to the usual Great White Male connections but i guess that would've been too radical for the staggers)

Has the New Statesman ever been any good (in say the last fifty years?)

Are any political publications "good"? I expect GWM syndrome thwarts that to a large extent.

are these guys all public schooled?

Obviously The Spectator is full of the most odious writers in the world, but as a product it is in many ways very accomplished, much moreso than the New Statesman, imho.

In my lifetime, I would say that the Class War newspaper and Marxism Today under Martin Jacques were also 'good' political magazines.

Clive James certainly wasn't, emac

there's a barnes/amis/hitchens/fenton arts & books period in the 70s that I imagine was pretty good if you like that sort of thing. But, no, it's never been good in my memory.

are these guys all public schooled?

No, but I bet their kids are.

thinking more, fenton & hitchens would have been politics/foreign correspondents

NS is usually excellent imo. Strong stable of critics, interesting essays and reportage, diverse columnists (especially online - proven by the fact that they keep heckling and blocking each other on Twitter). Most of the people in this issue aren't regular contributors, thankfully.

I agree with Lex re: reprehensible arse with real prose skills (AA Gill) vs mediocrity but James is a serious intellect imo, albeit one prone to horrible lapses like his Diana infatuation. Glibness overtook him on TV and his politics aren't mine but he's a strong essayist. Perhaps the fact he's dying makes me more inclined to fight his corner.

cheers Stevie

gonna start using e-mac as my new online presence obv

I think I read James' autobiography during a night shift abt ten years ago but have zero recollection

haha sorry dmac, am using a computer that autocorrects my posts for me!

James' memoirs, as I mentioned before, are excellent. Lex, have you read them, or his early TV criticism?

Unreliable Memoirs, the first volume, must've sold a lot of copies, it's a very common secondhand book

I thought we'd try and look for some reasons to dispatch any of the positives off.

- Clive's poem is average. A bit like Stephen Fry. Says a lot in a style but its content-free guff that is apologised by 'bridging the gap between high and low culture'.
- Will Self's 'provocations' are incredibly average. Was never inclined to read his fiction (his article on the decline of serious reading comes from someone who seemed to me to be apologising for the average London lit scene that has failed to produce anything of note in the last 20 years)
- Parr is a very average photographer (compared his stuff with Tony Ray-Jones and its lacking), clearly patronizes the working class.
- Williams did not stick out as Archbishop of Canterbury and make the thing self-destruct. Hugely disappointing.
- Tom Shone: seems like he wrote about the history of Hollywood blockbusters. Doesn't seem useful.
- Grayson Perry: Edited this thing? So if his article was so right on (sure enough but there were some dubious assumptions that a gender equal parliament and banking industry would not have bought the world to its knees, when the need to modify the structures of these places in particular ways were not acknowledged as a thing), and of course why did he invite this lot to contribute?
- Jon Snow: C4 news is so meh, self-satisfied. Doesn't have as good a reporter as Sue-Lloyd Roberts in the international desk.
Owen Jones: I think if his phones and movements are tapped or he serves a term in jail I might notice. ";-)"

If only they'd asked:

Liz Jones
Suzanne Moore
Allison Pearson
Barbara Ellen
Yasmin Alibai Brown
Julie Burchill
Janet Street Porter

we'd be ushering in a new post GWM era

...

Suzanne Moore's great. I've an abiding affection for JSP too.

i haven't read james's memoirs as i haven't been the tiniest bit interested by anything he's ever said on anything. hundreds of writers i've yet to explore thoroughly that i'd choose above him. agree w/xyzzz that his middlebrow respectability is tremendously offputting too.

suzanne moore has done some excellent things but also some appallingly offensive shite.

wrt James he had a stint at the LRB. Does the trick to 'dazzle' but sometimes you want him to stop and really talk about what he loves about Pushkin and Montale's poetry, or starts doing some work full stop. I've read a lot more of the latter and there is a rich mine to unpick, as a modernist and a cultural conservative that he was. iirc (no subscription these days) James doesn't even begin to unpick. Guess his next lunch with Diana was more on his mind - and who can blame him!

Gill is another one - often there comes a point in his TV columns where he'll defend Jeremy Clarkson. Write great prose if you like, just leave your brain out of it.

Saw an interview with Owen Jones on C4 news - the hack who came in to debate said he had "2nd album syndrome" and instead of being dismissive it got all v cosy. At the moment he just makes the elite he criticizes shift comfortably in their seats. I wouldn't put it past him to spend six months wokring in an amazon warehouse and writing a book about work next.

Bob Six- Suzanne Moore is in this issue.

Really good writeup of James' career here: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v32/n05/christopher-tayler/roth-pinter-berlin-and-me

I don't want to belabor this because obviously I recognize the irony of a thread like this evolving into a discussion of the qualities of the white males under the microscope but "cultural amnesia" by James opened my eyes in an accessible way to a lot of subjects w which I had only cursory knowledge and did so w v good prose. Admittedly I disagreed with him about plenty-his hot takes on Benjamin and 20th cen philosophy in general strike me as borderline slate pitches as ideas. But even the subjects on which I feel pretty knowledgeable already (miles davis or ellington or fitzgerald) I came away thinking about interesting questions--in the case of fitzgerald, a really exciting enthusiasm. I can definitely read a pompousness in it, it's an attitude that reminds me very singularly of ilx. Lol but serious? I mean one of the things I like about lex's writing is that it can be plate-clearingly pompous. This isn't a backhanded thing.

At any rate I feel faintly ridiculous defending a white man against climate change in a thread understandably rolling its eyes at a great white men magazine issue but i guess I'm in part hoping to provoke a little more specifics if we're gonna tear him down lol

Nb I haven't read that link yet.

trying to parse if this issue was actually about the great white male by the great white male for the great white male.

if accepted as so then the entire thread and complaint is obv totally wrongheaded id say. the rest of ye have twitter and ilx to deign to tell that gender and racial category how you'd like it to behave so what harm a publication focusing on the subject introspectively. in fact why the fuck ask mary beard anything.

nb if this wasn't the premise I been drinking

don't great white males already have a forum to focus on themselves aka the entire planet and everything in it

the entire planet and everything in it and most of twitter and ilx

my opposition to this thread is more disciplined - it challenges the great white male hegemony (even in the most inconsequential + worthless way) and must be suppressed.

the entire planet (no) and ilx (no lol) and twitter (no wtf lol) and one dedicated new states (which let's be honest wasn't exactly dragged out the fuckin hands of sjcru circulation for the purpose now was it)

Clive James

Might want to use this thread if we want to discuss his merits.

i think this is the right thread for it. i agree with others who say that his distrust of ideology causes him to misinterpret things but i don't think this long anti-ideological tradition in (especially) british letters -- stretching back at least to orwell, or at least he is the paradigm of it -- is something we should write off entirely. atwood is a thinker in this camp imo, it's not just a male thing. anyway, this:

- Clive's poem is average. A bit like Stephen Fry. Says a lot in a style but its content-free guff that is apologised by 'bridging the gap between high and low culture'.

i really don't think that poem is a bridging between high and low culture. i think it's an unpretentious meditation on impending death that avoids both sentimentality and self-pity. this is way harder to do than it seems. the fact that the poem seems so natural, i mean, this is its accomplishment.

don't great white males already have a forum to focus on themselves aka the entire planet and everything in it

― Mordy, Tuesday, October 14, 2014 6:53 PM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the entire planet and everything in it and most of twitter and ilx

― astuteness isn't everything (wins), Tuesday, October 14, 2014 6:55 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this isn't really about me wanting to focus on white men any more than the thread already is. by all means, tear them all down. i'm throwing an underhand pitch to a lex with a baseball bat, not trying to beam him with it.

idk im missing a lot of contextual references on this thread so im just going to fuck off tho

i really don't think that poem is a bridging between high and low culture. i think it's an unpretentious meditation on impending death that avoids both sentimentality and self-pity. this is way harder to do than it seems. the fact that the poem seems so natural, i mean, this is its accomplishment.

yeah, i think xxyyzz's critique of the poem was lazy nonsensical weak-sauce wannabe iconoclasm tbh.

I put in lots of things in one (partly bcz we have talked a bit about James in the past). I wasn't criticising the poem for the bridging. That is a quality resrved for much of James' overall work.

So are you going to tell me a 'meditation on death' doesn't sound pretentious already? But those are your terms.

I think it lost me on 'enhanced, in fact' and 'A final flood of colors will live on'. To believe that faculties aren't diminished feels too hopeful and yes, sentimental to me.

I know attacking a dying man's poem isn't a good look but hey art will be a ruthless judge.

I don't think calling it "average" was attacking it really tbh am sure history will forgive u yr withering insight

It won't notice any defenses, averages or attacks. History does not notice posts on message board, although there are footnotes, so some of us might make that.

I'm banking on it tbh

I think so too but I am just channeling a great white male's empty confidence in themselves and their non-ablities.

my major discovery from this thread is that if someone attacks clive james I am inclined to defend him, and if someone defends clive james I'm inclined to attack him.

I don't like that poem though.

haha ilx eh

my major discovery from this thread is that if someone attacks clive james I am inclined to defend him, and if someone defends clive james I'm inclined to attack him.

― woof, Wednesday, 15 October 2014 09:58 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark

I feel eliciting this response is the defining trait of the GWM organism. Unless you're Parsons. Fuck off Parsons. Or de Bottom - he's f'ing irritating in all sorts of ways, but that thing he did at the Rijksmuseum with the fucking post-its has really been gnawing away at me. It perfectly expresses his way of shitting all over things with himself in the name of making things 'accessible' (don't trust people to understand things unless they've got de bottom shit smeared all over them), or relevant (relevant to my banal de bottom shit interpretation of the now). it's so reductive - everything reduced to de importance of de bottom.

I'm totally calling my 2014-15 Fantasy Philosphy Team 'Race to de Botton'.

started from de Botton now we here

started from de Botton now my whole team fucking here

Rijksmuseum with the fucking post-its has really been gnawing away at me.

Sorry you had to see that. I'd love to go to Rijksmuseum someday but they have to take that crap off first.

i only really have attack/defend contrariness with James and maybe Amis… for me it's mostly to do with being an English books person, they've always been there for the 25 years of my proper reading life so the ledger is very very long (but as per upthread, that permapresence is a symptom of GWM culture).

But w/ Amis, I'm way less inclined to try to defend, partly because there's always enough of a crowd sticking up for Money, & partly bcz well take the interview with Perry from the issue:

GP How do you think we can tease out the cultural and political and gender influence of Default Man? Because he is a minority.

MA Well, I don’t think he should be persecuted on that account.

GP He certainly punches well above his weight, demographically, because historically he’s been given all the opportunities.

MA I think he’s heading for a time of comparative wilderness, don’t you? It’s a great disadvantage to be Default Man now.

GP Do you really think it is?

MA It’s getting to be.

GP But he is still Default and, because he is Default, he has power.

MA Christopher Hitchens’s son, Alexander, who’s making a name for himself as a journalist, has as his byline Alexander Meleagrou-Hitchens – Meleagrou is his mother’s maiden name. And I thought that was brilliant. “Alexander Hitchens” is defaultish, right? His national identity is a sort of albatross. I always wished I had something exotic about me, because everyone favours that now.

GP It’d be a fun gentleman’s club game to rally round stories of the persecution of Great White Males – but it doesn’t look like that from the outside. It looks like they still have a monopoly on power.

MA On power, yes, but in art, no.

GP Well, within my business, visual art, the intake is 75 per cent female and yet you look at who has showed their work and I think there still is a dominance of males.

etc i mean there's plenty more in there too.

Christ.

there's worse, but when he gets to "that’s Beckett skewered for ever" I just can't

So are you going to tell me a 'meditation on death' doesn't sound pretentious already?

why would that be pretentious? death is something we all have to deal with.

besides mine was better tbh

I don't think it's the "death" bit that's pretentious here, treesh.

problem is death's been approached innumerable times before (because it's both mundane and unique), by many people - you're going to need to bring some chops to justify that title to avoid bathos.

it can make what comes look vapid, as I think this poem is - dull lines, mawkish truisms or just truisms. he wrote one about fading mental capacity and no longer being the centre of attention, which is better I think, tho his line never exactly sings.

Yes its the 'meditation' that I picked on. Bit allergic to anything deacribed as such.

i find the james poem pretty staid in its sentimentality. i don't think a ponderous tone equals meaningfulness.

in terms of recent works by minor white male poets looking at death, I liked Hugo Williams' Dialysis poems more.

i thought its strength was its willingness to risk cliche for the purpose of honesty. i have some personal associations with the imagery too. it's not the kind of poem designed to blow people away but it feels true.

...

ach, fine, it's your aesthetic i guess

now a thread in which ilmers review a pome

it's what clive james would have wanted

i met clive davis back in may. i didn't know it was him at the time.

i sat and watched some Cardinal Burns last night, too tired to go to bed, and now i hate Robert Webb just a shade less

Clive Davis vs Clive James

Arista had an awesome logo

James/Davis/Dunn/Tyldesley/of India poll needed

Dunn, obvs

Anderson/Sinclair/Owen/Stafford Smith

Still Dunn.

sounds like a dunn deal

http://www.cbgxtra.com/blogs/beautiful-balloons/clive-by-mcgill-and-poelsma

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n20/michael-hofmann/splashing-through-the-puddles

Its a bumper issue of Great White maleness: http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n20/owen-hatherley/who-will-stop-them

Been watching lots of Simon Munnery recently and this is one of many I liked..

"If a million monkeys were given a million typewriters, eventually one of them might produce the complete works of Shakespeare but to reach it would it be worth wading through four hundred copies of "Money" by Martin Amis?"

man that review of the new amis is really brutal. loled tho cuz i read time's arrow and the gulag one but i had no idea he'd written another fastidious little novel set pompously against the midnight of the century. cmon man.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

brilliant results tbh

Parsons was robbed.

Dylan Jones suffering bigtime from FPTP voting system.

i tried to read the grayson perry lead article (in fairness, i should probably get past the first few 100 words before commenting) but his glee seemed more about the act than the actual message. i.e. i wasnt entirely sure he actually believed what he was trying to say or if he just liked the apparent 'naughtiness' (i was going to say radicalness but naughtiness/outrageousness seems to fit the tone better). but then i just thought that if a white male hadnt written this piece, no one at the NS would probably have cared that much.

AA Gill on the politics of the suit are you fucking kidding me

@georgegalloway
Don't miss my show tonight on @talkRADIO with John Pilger Peter Hitchens Peter Oborne and Julian Assange. 7pm. Mother of all Talkshows.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAei7reXMAkf3NY?format=jpg&name=900x900

couldn't this shit make it up

he's just thinking bout how he could make the planet earth bald

I mean, I guess Webb is kind of a lightweight when compared to the full on tossitude of Parsons and Amis and Gill and Botton and Fry. But give him 20, 30 years and I'm sure he'll get there.

― Jacques Lacan let me rock u; let me rock u, Jacques Lacan (Branwell with an N), Saturday, 11 October 2014 21:52 (six years ago) bookmarkflaglink

beat the spread by a good 15 years

Only ONE vote for Matthew Parris, ILX I am not angry with you, just very disappointed.

anyway this is a great nostalgia trip back to a long bygone age where these threads would attract a host of disingenuous "what's wrong with Scumbag X?" posts

"He's got the whole world, in his hands.. he's got the whole world.. in his hands.."

"Not the biggest Baddiel fan but "snivelling 'liberal' apologist for ladbantz bollocks" was his schtick 20 years ago, not now."

yes he's somehow been even almost worse than he was then, but he did stop doing blackface tbf

I'm amused that I didn't even know who Matthew Parris was at the time of this poll. Happier days of ignorant bliss! Bragg is a wanker but I still consider In Our Time a decent program and I guarantee whichever cunt replaces him when he succumbs to dementia will be a thousand times worse than him.

Was gonna say, Webb and Baddiel would have gotten way more votes this time 'round.

And Alain de Botton way less.

Did everyone forget who Will Self was?

45 years ago today (4 November 1977), the New Statesman published this article about divisions in the Communist Party of Great Britain. It is the first written use that I have found of the term ‘tankie’ to describe someone who (uncritically) supported the Soviet Union. pic.twitter.com/plCY3gk9Ge

— Evan Smith (@evansmithhist) November 4, 2022

This is a very … peculiar framing, but I do wonder where all the Statesman’s sugar daddy money has gone. The magazine’s professional irritants (and Will Lloyd, who commissions the worst of them) can’t be that expensive to run. pic.twitter.com/gLn4cK157g

— Elvis Buñuelo (@Mr_Considerate) November 18, 2023