Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

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Maybe take some of the Britishes interest navel-gazing out of the proper World Cup thread I thought?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:52 (nine years ago) link


Lennon Huddlestone Wilshere Young Agbonlahor Walcott
c'mon fabio you know it makes sense

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:41 (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Maybe I shall regret going here but I wonder what it is about those guys that mightn't appeal to England's core fan demographic as much as Lamps and Stevie and Rooney and Barry

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:42 (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

can't understand who chairmen/managers think they're pleasing when they buy a player in to sit on the bench and play 5 times a season.

In Scottish football, historically this has been a method used by the Celtic and Rangers to make sure they have the player and no-one else does

― I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:43 (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

ooooh NV

cmon seriously?

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:46 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

As long as they're winning they'll be fine

― I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:47 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I dunno. No, not seriously, but let us consider the "type" of an England "hero". Let's think of Stuart Pearce's bulging neck veins as he shouts for Carling in that ad or whatever. I mean "Englishness" is a definite thing for a lot of the England hardcore. And I definitely think the FA is more bothered about the Brand than the football, tbh.

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:48 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

There's a shitload to unpack in what are widely considered the virtues of the English game compared to the virtues that other big football nations espouse. I really really don't want to kick start a clusterfuck but it was a fleeting thought when I looked at that front 6 of darragh's up there.

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:50 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

saw the england-usa game in a south london pub where the guy behind me was a passionate england fan who shouted abuse at the team from the start, culminating in calling robert green a "fucking paki". so i could imagine this becoming a thing.

― joe, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:52 (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:53 (nine years ago) link

Thought this could be a general argument about the England team rather than a race clusterfuck but am leaving the steps that led here in the interests of full disclosure.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 09:54 (nine years ago) link

Somebody told me that one at work yesterday. Got plenty of love for Becks but I rolled about laughing at the idea. He's too much of a politician to want the job I'd've thought.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:00 (nine years ago) link

yeah this was needed tbh

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:01 (nine years ago) link

I suppose the model there is Klinsmann and Germany

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:01 (nine years ago) link

if only for the poetry

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:01 (nine years ago) link

Becks has no coaching badges, no managerial experience and has never courted the job. So on the surface he would seem a high-risk successor.

But

Classic But

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:01 (nine years ago) link

becks is no klinsmann

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:01 (nine years ago) link

Sheringham won't take it, seems to have no interest in coaching.

scholes hates the publicity

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:02 (nine years ago) link

You're gonna be stuck with Gary Neville imo

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:02 (nine years ago) link

what England needs is a player-manager.

but that man must be Maradona.

NYC Goatse.cx and Flowers (Merdeyeux), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:02 (nine years ago) link

Seriously Beckham might be more use to English football right now if he got involved with FA politics à la Brooking.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:04 (nine years ago) link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8766476.stm

g taylor talks sense here imo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8688093.stm

this article a chastening example: According to European football's governing body Uefa, Spain had almost 15,000 Uefa A and Pro Licence coaches in 2008 - more than double the number of any other European nation. And that is despite it taking 750 study hours to acquire a Pro Licence in Spain, compared with just 245 in England.

r|t|c, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:04 (nine years ago) link

Should go the whole hog and have John Terry as player-manager if England have no hope of anything ever for the next 10 years.

James Mitchell, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:06 (nine years ago) link

xp saying that, the english u20s are looking pretty good actually

guess they always do though

r|t|c, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:06 (nine years ago) link

Capello will get massive abuse in the media and inevitably eventually the sack, and will likely largely get off the hook here. I reckon the media closer to the truth than we are - the guy created an unhappy camp, took a poor and unadventurous squad, and in any case you're not telling me that that team couldn't've been put out to perform better than that. But I'd still keep him because:

- the guy's track record is still outstanding, even with this massive blot on it
- you don't get a track record like that without learning from your mistakes - no way are England going to turn up at another tournament looking like that
- surely this debacle is at least partly the result of him acting against his instincts - let him have free reign, and if it means a lot of bruised egos well so be it, massaged egos haven't brought results either
- he's getting paid whatever - giving possibly the outstanding club manager of the last twenty years £10m not to work for you is indefensible right now
- realistically, what's the alternative?

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:06 (nine years ago) link

- realistically, what's the alternative?

A Scottish manager

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:08 (nine years ago) link

england u-20s have always looked good, yeah.

the last england u-15 side i caught ina full match was pretty amazing, AFAIR a certain A johnson was only one of maybe three Middlesborough players in the midfield.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:08 (nine years ago) link

Capello gets free rein from me for creating an unhappy camp, if the alternative is to create a happy camps of spoiled brats.

Bringing the 23 players he did, after picking what i thought was a very bright and encouraging 30 to begin with, yeah that's a black mark.

Selecting the 11-15 players he did from those 23 consistently regardless of performance- ey Fabio this ain't the league mate.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:10 (nine years ago) link

rationally speaking capello should probably stay but the taint of failure is often insurmountable past a point

harry redknapp is the only alternative worth considering - he would do it but the tax fiddling's most likely knocked it on the head

r|t|c, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:10 (nine years ago) link

i think whether the fa are prepared to pay £12m to scapegoat capello is going to be a good litmus test of their appetite for real reform, which is why i expect him to get the sack. if they wanted him to stay they could have said so immediately - after two weeks of speculation, he'll be glad to get out i imagine.

joe, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:11 (nine years ago) link

I'd keep Capello + get rid of Lamps + Gerrard.

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:12 (nine years ago) link

How is letting Capello have his way not going to create another unhappy camp, unless different players are involved? And as you say, Capello picked the squad. So either this was a knowing ploy to get rid of a lot of the old guard after failure, or he's not the judge of a player we might've thought he was, or there's a near-insurmountable pressure to pick guys who aren't good enough/fit enough/mentally right that will still be there whoever Capello is replaced with.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:12 (nine years ago) link

he's getting paid whatever - giving possibly the outstanding club manager of the last twenty years £10m not to work for you is indefensible right now

realest talk, but watch and learn

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:12 (nine years ago) link

joe totally otm. Capello sacked, new boss, business as usual. Especially if the new boss is Arry as he would be the perfect expression of the FA as Business Ueber Alles.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:14 (nine years ago) link

redknapp should be able to settle with the revenue. pay them £40,000, call it a misunderstanding. it'll all be dug up again the moment england go through a bad patch but i could see a desperate fa turning a blind eye now.

joe, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:14 (nine years ago) link

"ey Fabio this ain't the league mate" pretty much sums up dude's failings, yeah

r|t|c, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:14 (nine years ago) link

Arry is also a great exponent of 442. Sticking with Capello would be the 451 thing to do, IMO

^yes I went there

so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:15 (nine years ago) link

Redknapp would be a disastrous international manager, he thrives on being able to bring in players to solve problems and if those players are just not out there in the 'market' I'm not sure he'd be able to fix things. Also the FA were pretty nervous about Venables' dodgy dealings and I'm not sure they'd take that risk with Redknapp. Also I don't want him to leave Spurs.

Hodgson at least has some experience as an international manager. He'll do.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:15 (nine years ago) link

Far as I can see, only 3 English managers having any degree of success at the moment: 'Arry, Hodgson (off to the 'Pool) and, errrr, Steve McClaren. Go for the younger man I say.

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:16 (nine years ago) link

classic material from alan shearer's column in the sun today. it begins: "NO ONE likes kicking a man when he is down..."

oh yeah? http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/85000/images/_86318_alan_shearer_and_neil_lennon_after_kicking_incident300%2830-04-98%29allsport.jpg

joe, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (nine years ago) link

Remember when Kings used to lead their armies back in ye olde times? Get Prince William in there and make that sponger earn his salary from The FA.

They'll be dancing in the streets of Košice tonight (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (nine years ago) link

DAER SPURB FANZ wud u take swop caleppo and renkdapp

so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (nine years ago) link

i can't remember where i read the slow cooking/fast food domestic league vs internationals analogy but i'd trust arry & sandra to whip a quick buffet sooner than fabio or woy tbh

r|t|c, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:18 (nine years ago) link

Redknapp, and I don't want it to happen for two main reasons, would be the ideal manager for this group, and I think that he's done well out of players he already had at Spurs as well as buying them in Matt.

Also, that would be ignoring that he could 'bring in' any number of players like Walcott, Huddlestone, Dawson, Rodwell, Wilshere, Zamora, whoever.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:18 (nine years ago) link

Bentley and Bent could suck it tho

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:19 (nine years ago) link

Did Arry really say that about swapping a bentley for a honda on BBC after the Japan game btw?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:19 (nine years ago) link

Honda have quality cars, get into a Civic.

They'll be dancing in the streets of Košice tonight (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:20 (nine years ago) link

he did

it was a groaner but the shaggy-dog delivery was kinda impressive for a pundit imo

r|t|c, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:21 (nine years ago) link

Remember when Kings used to lead their armies back in ye olde times? Get Prince William in there and make that sponger earn his salary from The FA.

― They'll be dancing in the streets of Košice tonight (King Boy Pato), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Astride a horse = unwanted redux of Crouchch-on-as-sub high ball tactics

matthew ugh, son (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:23 (nine years ago) link

er, Crouch

matthew ugh, son (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:23 (nine years ago) link

DAER SPURB FANZ wud u take swop caleppo and renkdapp

― so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:17 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yes; Calippo would not

matthew ugh, son (DJ Mencap), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:25 (nine years ago) link

would definitely have capello as the successor to arry. he'd cane bentley up and down bill nick way imo

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:28 (nine years ago) link

sorry usually means you'll try not to let it happen again.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:36 (nine years ago) link

An idea that just occurred to me - absolute squad limits. Clubs pick their 23 men on day one and are stuck with them. You *can* buy youngsters to sit in the stands, but everyone would have to be honest about it. Any kids in the 23 would be guaranteed playing time. The other kids, if they had any useful mentality whatsoever, would go elsewhere. Also a handy way of (i) shifting talent down the pyramid a bit, and (ii) keeping budgets down a little.

Of course it'd have to apply to the premier league to achieve anything, and there's almost no incentive for the premier league to agree to it. Which seems to be the problem with English football in a nutshell.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:37 (nine years ago) link

xp Try telling that to Bernie Taupin...

ninjas and lasers and gold and (snoball), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:37 (nine years ago) link

Squad capped at 25 is not a new idea, i think, and yeah all for it.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:38 (nine years ago) link

Of course it'd have to apply to the premier league to achieve anything, and there's almost no incentive for the premier league to agree to it. Which seems to be the problem with English football in a nutshell.

Well quite. And expecting any new law to be followed in spirit rather than pushed to a meaningless breaking point is optimistic given the current climate. Now the question is, how far could the FA push the Premier League in theory, and why does it choose not to do so. DJ Shadow answers coming up after this break.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:42 (nine years ago) link

Man utd and Chelsea would just break it with impunity anyway

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:43 (nine years ago) link

am I right that teams have to submit their 25 man league squads next season? Except you can play all the players under X age (I forget) you want. Will this make any difference?

NYC Goatse.cx and Flowers (Merdeyeux), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:47 (nine years ago) link

how far could the FA push the Premier League in theory

Is the ångström still a unit of measurement?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:47 (nine years ago) link

cunt-hair is workable

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:48 (nine years ago) link

Prefer ba' hair

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:48 (nine years ago) link

am I right that teams have to submit their 25 man league squads next season? Except you can play all the players under X age (I forget) you want. Will this make any difference?

i think they're some stipulations about those under-25's, whether they're developed by the club, brought in, brought in from abroad, w/e. gets complicated.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 10:49 (nine years ago) link

This is like the Football League rules that I abuse on FM 2010 but having 4 crappy homegrown dudes on my subs bench every match, right?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:01 (nine years ago) link

Yeah.

Was the thinking behind having 7 subs and not 5 iirc

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:02 (nine years ago) link

I think the foreigners debate is worth having but not in the Blatter 6+5 or the 'I'm a racist Sun reader but' sense. I just don't understand what football teams get from buying the majority of foreign footballers. Was John Utaka really worth spending all that money on? Couldn't Portsmouth have spent 1/50th of his wages+bonus+transferfee+agentkickbacks to improve their academy and potentially get a decent striker or three come through every year? What do Mido and Benni McCarthy offer West Ham that Sears and Hines don't, other than limited ability to move away from a pie stand? Southampton were able to create at least 2 wingers of Champions League ability in the past 10 years, the type of players that earned them 10m each, so they use that money to buy Papa Waigo? Is there really no more Bales or Walcotts coming through with the same coaching staff and techniques, so you go for Papa fucking Waigo instead? Or does the giant Senegalise population of Southampton bring in extra needed revenue?

Basically my point is our academies and coaching may suck but really they cannot suck so much that John Utaka seems a valid option ahead of them, surely? Until all academies in the country get to the point where they notice that they can make a Champions League ability player (which Theo is and Bale will be next season) instead of closing your eyes on Football Manager and clicking at random until you find your next signing, English football can get tae fuck. We will continue to have the Gerrard-Lampard debate because there is no-one else of the top quality to make the fucking first eleven, let alone the squad, let alone Premiership teams.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:09 (nine years ago) link

I just don't understand what football teams get from buying the majority of foreign footballers

very much my point from earlier on. Redknapp style payoffs from agents?

What do Mido and Benni McCarthy offer West Ham that Sears and Hines don't, other than limited ability to move away from a pie stand?

consider this english-football imaginary board excelsiored

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:10 (nine years ago) link

lol tho theo walcott is not a champion's league quality player

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:11 (nine years ago) link

As of next season-

Clubs have to declare an A squad of which 8 must be trained (3 years in the country before the age of 21, i.e. buying a player from abroad at 17 is fine but as Brazilian's can't travel till 18, Rafael or Denilson for example, do not count) within the UK and 4 of those must be trained by the club itself. They may also declare a B squad of any youngsters under 21.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:11 (nine years ago) link

just don't understand what football teams get from buying the majority of foreign footballers

*splutter*

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:12 (nine years ago) link

All morning now I've been thinking "ten two-footed dudes who can pass short" is the way to go, really.

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:09 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

england don't have ten of these guys- by the time they get to full-international age they've all given up and gone breadman

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:12 (29 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I should be posting this in the other thread, soz.

― Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:12 (0 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

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Clearly England don't, I was positing it as some kind of development plan.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:13 (nine years ago) link

I know you are trolling so I won't go into it but I was thinking of smaller clubs making money or having top class players (and as lol as me saying it is, anyone who plays for a top 3 side usually = top class) come through their academy. Whether that guy who has demolished teams such as Liverpool and Barcelona and Porto in the CL is of that quality or not then you decide whether to troll or not. :)

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:14 (nine years ago) link

teams such as Liverpool, you say?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:16 (nine years ago) link

Tom top level players are different. I can obviously understand what Torres or Drogba add. Or as I said in the other thread, Wigan's ability to buy foreigners makes perfect sense. But what has Newcastle's proven track record of buying from outside the country added to their game, let alone the national side, other than complete and utter failure? Did *sorry Ronan* Rafa need to buy 97 players in his time at Liverpool?

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:17 (nine years ago) link

demolished liverpool in that loss that time?

walcott has played in the CL, and if that's the only stipulation then that's the mark i guess.

I'll choke the first time someone describes benoit assou-ekotto or jermaine jenas as CL 'quality' players. I sincerely hope you think about that

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:17 (nine years ago) link

don't undertand the confusion about ahh's basic point- why do southampton need to buy a bad player from spain for ££££ as opposed to promoting a bad player from the reserves in that position?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:18 (nine years ago) link

why do liverpool? Spurs?

were all of our right backs worse than alan hutton?

9m worse?

don't for a second buy that.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:19 (nine years ago) link

Tom top level players are different. I can obviously understand what Torres or Drogba add. Or as I said in the other thread, Wigan's ability to buy foreigners makes perfect sense. But what has Newcastle's proven track record of buying from outside the country added to their game, let alone the national side, other than complete and utter failure?

*cough cough* Scottish football *tumbleweeds*

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:20 (nine years ago) link

'xactly! 9 poxy million put back into the academy compared to the fucking pittance any club currently spends on it would give you four thousand alan huttons!

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:21 (nine years ago) link

Yes, why are English clubs wasting millions on players from a strange culture and who don't speak the language like Alan Hutton

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:23 (nine years ago) link

at least then we'd have more than one right back to take to the fucking competition let alone choose from.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:23 (nine years ago) link

WHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU WANT FOUR THOUSAND ALAN HUTTONS

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:25 (nine years ago) link

'twas a joke my maine, calm it

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:29 (nine years ago) link

Tom okay why the hell did Scottish clubs do it?

Perceived wisdom is that foreign players are better value for money in terms of skill/asking price, but that's been evident bollocks for ages.

Maybe all the club scouts are foreigners?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:29 (nine years ago) link

This is gonna turn out to be about agents and backhanders again, isn't it?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:30 (nine years ago) link

that's what i said about 30 posts up

Perceived wisdom is that foreign players are better value for money in terms of skill/asking price, but that's been evident bollocks for ages.

even in the short term, that's still v debatable

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:33 (nine years ago) link

Perceived wisdom is that foreign players are better value for money in terms of skill/asking price, but that's been evident bollocks for ages.

Not that evident I would suggest, in terms of price + wages. It gets to be a trend, it's the done thing.

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:34 (nine years ago) link

Top English clubs develop home grown talent up until the age of maybe 18, and then what's the thingummy rate? 95%?

What's the point of that? There's no way a player is the finished product at 18, not even at 21.

Shit, Aaron Lennon was fast but gash until last year, and he's been first team for four years or so.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:36 (nine years ago) link

It's chicken + egg tho. Decrease in quality in footballers coming thru the ranks, this is Scotland I'm talking about, was probably happening before the influx of foreign players and buying foreign players was seen as a short-term solution to that.

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

D'you think that the loss of talent to English clubs played a part in that Tom?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

Not that evident I would suggest, in terms of price + wages.

But that would only apply to homegrown kids being overpriced by lower league clubs selling on, it doesn't apply to talent that the club develops itself, surely? Unless some guys in charge of academies have been Arrying a lot off the top.

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

D'you think that the loss of talent to English clubs played a part in that Tom?

Oh no, Scottish players have been playing in England since the formation of the English League, they won the league for those clubs!

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:39 (nine years ago) link

Ireland produces a lot more good footballers than Scotland, how are they doing it?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:40 (nine years ago) link

Gaelic Football dropout wimps

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:41 (nine years ago) link

^srsly^

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:41 (nine years ago) link

Too crap to kick it over the crossbar?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

I'm right in thinking that's how it works, yeah?

Mertesacker Emptiness (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

Too fucking soft, lad

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

But at least they're playing a sport?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

Where d'you think Quinny got his bad back?

Away with your disco pants ya pansy fuck ya

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

I dunno what the % of irish lads playing organised sport in their teens would be, but yeah I'd imagine that it's pretty high for all of Giles/Dunphy moaning on the subject.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:43 (nine years ago) link

It's not the Gaelic thing, rly- most kids with aptitiude will play both until forced to choose. That's v common even within the Gaelic disciplines of Football/Hurling

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:44 (nine years ago) link

The fact that GAA is a local game with local heroes is a big thing in encouraging participation to a fairly professional standard though, so I do think there's something there.

I know nothing about the development of soccer players though, because, simply put, you need to be from dublin or cork to get a game or a sniff of a game at FAI utd FC

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:45 (nine years ago) link

I tell you when I know Scotland was in trouble: on 1st June 1997, I sat down to watch highlights of a friendly between Scotland and Malta, and soon realised there was a player wearing a Scotland shirt who I had never heard of before - that man was David Hopkin

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:53 (nine years ago) link

Played for leeds for a while? looks like rorscharch from watchmen?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:58 (nine years ago) link

anyway, sure that happens all the time under trapattoni- it's a bit of an adjusment to think of internationals as the first place your boys play first-class first team football, but it's seems to be working so far.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 11:59 (nine years ago) link

Since Rafa took charge of the Academy, there have plenty of English boys impressing and making names for themselves, so hopefully they'll get a chance when Roy's installed (although he's not known for nurturing youth particularly well?)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/l/liverpool/8611991.stm

The referee was perfect (Chris), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:13 (nine years ago) link

I didn't realise as many as seven of that Barça team were home-grown - that's really quite impressive

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:17 (nine years ago) link

WELL DONE BARCEFUCKINGLONA GO AND PLAY WITH YOUR UNICEF FRIENDS AND MAKE A COMMERCIAL

so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:18 (nine years ago) link

Ha, I was about to parody that lj post practically word-for-word. If you're not eulogising FC Bonyodkor as footballing nirvana by the end of the close season I will feel majorly let down.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:21 (nine years ago) link

It's pretty fucking amazing in this day and age, Louis don't be a cock.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:23 (nine years ago) link

Not uncommon in Spain tho? Apart from Real Madrid, of course.

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:23 (nine years ago) link

hahaha I was definitely posting very much in character, not making an actual argument there - it is pretty damn impressive yes

also yeah Bilbao's feats are probably even more impressive - they don't have a worldwide scouting network and the best youth coaches money can buy

so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 12:24 (nine years ago) link

besides Messi everyone who's currently starring after being brought through the Barca youth system is Spanish though, no? But no doubt that Bilbao's shit is remarkable indeed, especially with the history (to what extent does it still apply?) of restricting themselves to a place with a population comparable to that of Wales.

NYC Goatse.cx and Flowers (Merdeyeux), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:18 (nine years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwQ80x2MrG8

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:21 (nine years ago) link

I remember Mallorca doing well one year in a European competition and the fact that all of their players were born within 20 miles of their ground

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:25 (nine years ago) link

... in the UK, we'd say "Oh well of course that sort of thing doesn't happen anymore" blah blah blah

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:26 (nine years ago) link

in the uk, it doesn't.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:26 (nine years ago) link

We're so much more advanced here

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:27 (nine years ago) link

the uk football team

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Tuesday, 29 June 2010 13:28 (nine years ago) link

Loathe as I am to add grist to the mill of less-reputable posters, I must confess to finding Spain pretty boring to watch. It's good when there's a real struggle on and they look vulnerable, but in this tournament that's been just the opening against Chile and maybe half-an-hour today. Possibly the last ten minutes against Switzerland at a stretch. Otherwise there's no drama, it's mostly just waiting around for them to score. That's kind of how I remember 2008 as well.

I want to see them hounded, and have to respond, in big games that could go either way. If they do that well then great, I'll be a fan, but until I see that I have no faith. Holland would probably beat them. Uruguay too maybe. Germany would have a good chance. Brazil would murder them.

― Ismael Klata, 29 June 2010 22:27 (Yesterday)

<3 IK, he's a serious football poster etc- but is this attitude (is it prevailing, for a start?) a large part of the problem wrt English international footballers being so rushed, impatient, dramatic on the ball?

I mean, I'm just happy if John O'Shea can find a team mate, to hell with the pass being in any way forward progress on top of that tbh.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:17 (nine years ago) link

The problem with Spain is that Iniesta and Xavi started their careers as DMs, so do they really need them two, Xabi Alonso AND Sergio Busquiets in midfield w/ no wingers? They are by far the most creative team in the world, fucking do something with it, try and beat yr man occasionally instead of making your 67th consecutive pass. It's effective football but its also extremely boring.

Brazil v. Spain will be p intense tho

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:20 (nine years ago) link

Not the problem w/ English football. We'd fucking love some of Spain's patience and ability to back it up. England play that fast and dramatic because they are scared of losing the ball soon enough if they try and pass it to each other.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:21 (nine years ago) link

Hey, I'm taking none of the blame for that nonsense!

You've got a serious point wrt to actually watching the England team, namely that they're such a drama queen - and drama queens do make such great viewing. No idea why England (and France! And I guess Argentina!) should have become the football equivalent of high camp, but they are almost always undeniably compelling. I don't know if 'twas ever thus - I can't think of a proper example before 1986, though the seeds are there in 66 and 73 - but since 86 it has turned into a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that passion and hysterical overreaction have become the answer to everything. Not sure we'd like calm efficiency very much. It certainly wouldn't make for a memorable narrative.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:29 (nine years ago) link

xxp

Iniest and Xavi are DM's, but not in the English understanding of the position. They're deep-lying playmakers. Iniesta never convinced in the role because of his preference for attacking options in movement/passing. He also beats his man more often than any english player I could name, tbh.

Villa plays wide on the left- he's an real winger, as opposed to playing Milner on the right of midfield.

With Villa on the left, they don't need anyone on the right- Ramos gets into the opponent's box more often than Lampard/Gerrard/Lennon/Walcott.

Spain keep the ball and attack with runs from deep because that's how you break down teams that refuse to attack you- When England learn to do this rather than run en masse up front and wait for a long ball, taking away any options for the man on the ball in the process, they might make the 1/4 finals again.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:32 (nine years ago) link

xp to IK

Yeah, the sturm/drang of the premier league is carried over in the english player mentality, I think. If you're not achieving something immediately, it's suspiciously foreign.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:34 (nine years ago) link

Villa is not a winger wtf although I guess he'll turn into a wing-forward for Barca.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:35 (nine years ago) link

Darragh OTM on Villa and Ramos, they both got past their man time and time again. I'm not sure A Hoy Hoy was watching the same Spain as me last night.

Also Andreas Pirlo was the best player in the best team at the last World Cup and you didn't see him charging past his man very often.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:36 (nine years ago) link

Ramos spent the first half in his own half, was a lot better in the second.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:38 (nine years ago) link

Villa not a winger? The dude touches chalk for 50% of the game!

Ramos: Opposition teams tire, you want your right back disciplined to begin with tbf.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:42 (nine years ago) link

He's an out-and-out striker who drifts into wide positions, its what players can do in these modern teams that aren't wedded to 4-4-2.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:44 (nine years ago) link

Basically- Spain are set up to take into account the actual movement of players when the team has the ball, which is why you get three-four options when it comes to picking out a killer ball. Almost like a playbook is Yankball, maybe?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 09:44 (nine years ago) link

^^^ E-fucking-xactly.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:18 (nine years ago) link

Capello digging his heels in. I can't see him being cowed by The Sun, so this might not end in complete disaster.

John Terry, while prob one of England's best performers, can kiss his international career goodbye if Capello stays, right?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:20 (nine years ago) link

That was a good article.

so you want Mark Ronson to cry into your ass (acoleuthic), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:20 (nine years ago) link

can't think of a proper example before 1986, though the seeds are there in 66 and 73

The dramatic narrative in '82 was provided by the inclusion of two 30something stars-that-we-couldn't-leave-out, who were both carrying injuries - Keegan and Brooking. Keegan's best years as an international had been wasted in non-qualification and now he'd returned to English club football. The whole thing seemed to be about Superstar SuperKev of the SuperSaints and his WC Dream.

Sans KK and TB, England coasted through the group, drew 0-0 with West Germany in the second group stage and needed to beat Spain by two goals to make the semis. On came the crocked veterans for the last 20min. Brooking crosses for Keegan to head wide from six yards. I think this was also the debut of Clough's non-truism "it only takes a second to score a goal". And Big Jack C's helpful "if they get one with enough time to get another one, they'll be alright." Which, taken together, essentially meant 0-0 at 89:58 was still a winnable position.

Michael Jones, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:25 (nine years ago) link

John Terry, while prob one of England's best performers

... exsqueeze me?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:26 (nine years ago) link

Wait, Brooking played in 1982? WTF?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:27 (nine years ago) link

I thought Terry was one of england's better players- obviously pretty awful in the German game, but certainly in the group stages was one of the only performers, alongside A Cole.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:28 (nine years ago) link

Struggling to think of who could count as one of England's best performers. Ashley Cole? Jermain Defoe? Someone who came on for a few minutes at the end of the game and didn't disgrace themselves? Michael Dawson? Theo Walcott?

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:29 (nine years ago) link

Carrick will have been pleased with his own individual standing- Dawson also came out as a sure thing for the next campaign.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:31 (nine years ago) link

Thought Cashley was OK. And Calamity James. Terry arguably squeaked by against the mighty forward lines of Algeria and Slovienia but was mince, when you get right down to it

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:32 (nine years ago) link

the problems were with teamwork so there's no point picking out good performers. for every missed pass there was a lack of movement to give any decent options. the really telling detail was when james took a goal kick or anyone took a throw in, they would always wait for a few moments looking out in despair at the field in front of them.

joe, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:33 (nine years ago) link

Terry 80% pass success rate, FWIW, according to article above.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:34 (nine years ago) link

anyone took a throw in, they would always wait for a few moments looking out in despair at the field in front of them

lol tottenham hotspur, as long as i've watched them. we lose possession from the majority of our own throw ins, i swear.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:35 (nine years ago) link

80% success trundling the ball sideways to Upson

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:35 (nine years ago) link

What d'you want from John Terry in possession, I ask?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:37 (nine years ago) link

Whatever happened to Statto by the way?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:37 (nine years ago) link

Terry 80% pass success rate, FWIW, according to article above.

― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:34 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

means nothing for centre halves btw

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:38 (nine years ago) link

I know nothing about the development of soccer players though, because, simply put, you need to be from dublin or cork to get a game or a sniff of a game at FAI utd FC

dunno, one thing ive noticed in recent years is players on the irish team not from those cities for a change - stephen hunt (waterford), kevin doyle (wexford), shane long (tipperary)

Michael B, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:39 (nine years ago) link

Wait, Brooking played in 1982? WTF?

Oh yes. But never again afterwards (and incoming Eng manager Bobby Robson dropped Keegan from the squad for the first Euro 84 qualifier in Sept '82, so that lame 20min cameo at the Bernabeu was his last hurrah too).

Lousy structure to that tournament - second round of four three-team groups. Spain had nothing to play for vs England (though the other final R2 matches were more "live", in each case one side only needed a draw to progress).

Michael Jones, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:40 (nine years ago) link

Michael- yeah, but hunt has been in England since forever (since he was 15 I think) and I think both of the others came from Cork City?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:45 (nine years ago) link

Great article by Humphries

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:48 (nine years ago) link

the really telling detail was when james took a goal kick or anyone took a throw in, they would always wait for a few moments looking out in despair at the field in front of them.

^realest of talk, if someone made a Zidane-style film of James v Germany it'd be like Bad Lieutenant or something, he looked that angry every time the camera picked him up

if I get 1000 followers I will take political action (DJ Mencap), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:48 (nine years ago) link

(may be wrong about doyle coming from cork, tbh, but waterford still the rich and pampered east of the country imo)

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 10:49 (nine years ago) link

no youre right, doyle played for cork city

Michael B, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:07 (nine years ago) link

Nice piece on England's 1982 World Cup here http://www.morethanmindgames.com/2006/06/01/the-nearly-men-englands-1982-world-cup/

State Attorney Foxhart Cubycheck (Billy Dods), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:14 (nine years ago) link

England's problems are deep, man.

Structurally, there's the whole Premier League set up, which makes clubs more powerful than country. There's the poor youth training - though apparently the kids at U18 level are very good. There's the lack of depth in the talent pool, where players like Upson, Milner, SWP and Barry become first teamers when they shouldn't even be on the plane. There's the subletting out of key positions to foreign players, so England cannot produce either a decent defensive midfielder (Barry was the direct cause of all England's faults v Germany and gave Upson/Terry zero protection) OR a decent creative midfielder (when did we last produce a decent playmaker - we had buckets of them 20 years ago when football was infinitely shitter).

Then there are the mistakes made by Capello. So many of them, it beggers belief. I really didn't expect him to lose it so badly and the whole contract thing is absolutely disgraceful.

I don't blame the players at all really: there are too many that simply aren't good enough (and that's not their fault) and the rest weren't trained properly and weren't man-managed properly. Given the endemic structural problems, the team was never better than the quarter-finals, but it's Capello fault they didn't even make it that far.

What to do? I say let him see if he can learn from his failure, manage expectations (England will be lucky to qualify for the next Euros) and use the big gap between the current crop of players and the next (who are all under-20) to implement some of the changes in coaching and prioritising that are required. Easy.

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:28 (nine years ago) link

(Looking forward to reading the youth article above. I saw the Chelsea youth team this season against Blackburn and Villa, and there was a huge difference between Chelsea's ballplayers (including this amazing little English playmaker called McEachen) and Villa and (especially) Blackburn's cloggers, suggesting athleticism is still being rated too highly by youth coaches. But the Chelsea team itself was a massively better than the one I saw two years before, suggesting you can make the changes relatively quickly IF you have the resources.)

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:29 (nine years ago) link

Okay, so I've read the opening paragraphs of the Irish Times piece and am shaking my head already. Sam Hutchinson is a very promising player but has the same knee problem as Ledley King, and he's only 20. The fact he has played for Chelsea at all is a minor miracle. Not the best example to pick...

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:31 (nine years ago) link

there's the whole Premier League set up, which makes clubs more powerful than country

while I agree 100% with the rest of your post, Pete- This doesn't explain why the PL clubs don't produce young English talent to the level that big teams in other countries are doing for etc Barca in Spain, Bayern In Germany, Ajax (and others, tbf) in Holland.

Why are Everton able to produce 30m british youngsters, and nobody else sees the value in it?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:34 (nine years ago) link

including this amazing little English playmaker called McEachen)

McEachen, eh? Better make sure Ireland (or Scotland possibly) don't claim him first.

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

Surely scottish

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

not that that'll stop us (lol mcgeady)

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

Why are Everton able to produce 30m british youngsters

Because they are not bankrolled by sheikhs or Russian oligarchs?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:38 (nine years ago) link

But I don't know why they should have to be forced to do so out of necessity, when it seems to be the best long term blueprint

i hear good things about this man city youth product silva, btw

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:39 (nine years ago) link

reckon a lot of english clubs like the idea of getting a player from elsewhere cheap, watch their value rise, then sell on. like flipping a house. can't do this with english players because they pretty much don't leave england.

assiest boy in america (haitch), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:40 (nine years ago) link

Wayne Rooney didn't have to leave England to earn Everton 30m.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:41 (nine years ago) link

There are loads of reasons for this:

There simply aren't as many English 10 year olds playing football these days (pretty sure this is the case)
Poor PE training.
Lack of top quality coaches.
Those who do play, play too many games and on too big a pitch.
The big PL clubs can nick semi-developed talent from abroad and get praised for it
Too much money in the game - they can spend rather than nurture, even the smaller clubs piggyback on the success of the bigger ones.
They don't take it seriously enough (this is a brilliant read on Ajax - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/06/magazine/06Soccer-t.html)
The even smaller clubs are put off nurturing talent by the fact the bigger clubs will just thieve their kids (Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham)

The rumours are that some of this is changing (foreign kids are less fashionable), but it's going to take a while to drip through into the Premier League and requires clubs putting their kids into the mixer and bugger the consequences.

I don't know much about the Everton story, but would be interested to learn more. I presume they are in part benefiting from Liverpool's near complete neglect of local talent (although haven't Pool done well in the Youth Cup).

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:46 (nine years ago) link

Josh McEachren, born in Oxfordshire, hotbed of football talent (see also: Why football is turning middle class).

Even the Mancs rate him.

http://www.redcafe.net/f7/josh-mceachran-296926/

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:49 (nine years ago) link

was just digging up that ajax article, fantastic read.

assiest boy in america (haitch), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:50 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, fascinating to see the comparisons made with American sports for a chance.

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:52 (nine years ago) link

The even smaller clubs are put off nurturing talent by the fact the bigger clubs will just thieve their kids (Chelsea, Spurs, West Ham)

#1 problem imo, but have the new rules on compensation etc been in place long-enough to have borne fruit as yet?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:53 (nine years ago) link

Regarding why more clubs don't go down the Everton Rooney route

a) football clubs aren't financially literate
b) they can make almost as big a profit by finding and flogging a Valencia or Santa Cruz
c) these kids are hard to spot and take time to nurture and then may discover women or wine or get injured, and clubs don't like risk
d) why bother, when you can nick a 16-year-old from Barcelona and claim he is homegrown?
e) you may make £30m, but you look like Man U's bitch - how much is that worth? that's the Ajax angle.

There are signs this is changing. Arsenal were responsible for some of the bad youth policies of the past when they obsessed over foreigners, but Wenger now reckons English is good and everybody else will follow.

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 11:57 (nine years ago) link

b) they can make almost as big a profit by finding and flogging a Valencia or Santa Cruz

Srsly though? Cost of developing one player (even allowing for attrition) can't be comparable. And

(c) it's not like buying in yr Santa Cruz's is a risk-free effort. Wages alone, etc etc. And whether or not they'll settle.

(d) Everton can't nick 16 year old's from Barca. That's an elite number of clubs that can do that to begin with.

(e) Even Man U are a selling club.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:02 (nine years ago) link

Return to a)

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:04 (nine years ago) link

Josh McEachren, born in Oxfordshire

Where was his grandad born, that's what really counts

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:06 (nine years ago) link

i mean what you're saying there is that we'd all make a better job of running the transfer affairs of 95% of english clubs.

can't be that simple.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:07 (nine years ago) link

Well, you have to factor in the stuff I was saying before about the quality of the English talent pool before it even gets to the clubs, that makes it harder to find the good stuff. It stems from there.

But English clubs definitely see bringing in foreigners (if not 16-y-o from Barca) as an easy option and one that can prove massively profitable if done well, and if you have scouted carefully you remove a lot of the attendant risks - plus you have a player who can improve the team from the get-go, not theoretically in five years time and then only momentarily before he moves to a bigger club.

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:12 (nine years ago) link

That article is great, but it saddens me that being the world's greatest selling club is the best Ajax can aspire to. They've been screwed. They should be contenders every year.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:14 (nine years ago) link

Well bringing in better foreigners, yes- England doesn't monopolise raw talent.

But there's gotta be a huge amount of former eng u-21 players that could play first team for premier league teams. where are these guys going to?

Ajax article- am still working my way through, but yeah it's v interesting stuff. I've chilled at a BBQ with Denis Bergkamp's former Ajaz roommate, btw

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:15 (nine years ago) link

Jennings said that his scouts, in response to the “unsuitability of the indigenous population of Britain” — children who are too sedentary and spend their time with video games — were increasingly focused “on the inner city of London, among Africans, Eastern Europeans and Caribbeans.”

teling quote, tbh

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:26 (nine years ago) link

But that's part of the problem - there has been a big gap in the England talent pool for the last decade. There simply aren't that many good players coming through, and those that stay in the Premier League are manifestly not good enough to play for England (Sidwell, Bentley). It's a question of numbers, not that many are getting pro contracts (partly because of the squeeze from foreign players, but that's not all of it) and those that do, aren't particularly good because of lack of good coaching.

Where have all Liverpool's FA Youth Cup winning players gone? They just drift down the leagues.

I interviewed a youth development guy at charlton. he said of 40 players that come in and out of a group as it moves from u-11 to u-17, two will end up playing professional football and one will make a career out of it, most likely in the lower leagues. And that's at a club with a good record in youth development.

Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:27 (nine years ago) link

Sidwell & Bentley are good enough, imo, they're just feckless.

Is it more of a mental thing- is this a coaching thing?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:31 (nine years ago) link

Before Rafa overhauled LFC's Academy, the club employed around 100 part-time scouts, some around the age of 80. Since then, with 12 full time scouts in place, and 2 of the coaches that worked with the likes of Messi and Fabregas when they were kids, there's been some very promising youngsters coming through, and the U18 team contributed 2 players to the England U17 team that recently won the World Championships.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:37 (nine years ago) link

"Where have all Liverpool's FA Youth Cup winning players gone? They just drift down the leagues. "

Anyone can have a good cup run. Being able to sustain that over a league season is another matter, and that appears to have been the problem. I'm guessing they simply weren't good enough.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:39 (nine years ago) link

Seems like Scotland was actually ahead of England when it comes to gradual drying up of talent and inexorable decline into mediocrity

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:40 (nine years ago) link

(great thread title btw)

Gravel Puzzleworth, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:43 (nine years ago) link

Austria and Hungary once again showing the Brits how it's done

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:45 (nine years ago) link

Funny you should say that, I always bring up Hungary when discussing Scotland's decline into shiteness

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:46 (nine years ago) link

Spurs youth team of a few years back had a good couple of years in the league, iirc. Didn't get much out of it.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 12:57 (nine years ago) link

Everton's FA Youth Cup winning side of 1997-98:

Dean Delaney (Port Vale and then back to Ireland)
Carl Regan (Barnsley, Hull, Chester...)
Adam Eaton (Preston NE, Mansfield, retired at 25)
Edward O'Brien (no pro career AFAIK)
Adam Farley (1 first-team appearance in '99, then non-league)
Richard Dunne (5 years at EFC, Man City, Villa, Irish international)
David Poppleton (no pro career AFAIK)
Leon Osman (still a Toffee)
Danny Cadamarteri (bit of a ringer at that point, having already starred in first team, goal vs LFC, etc; lower leagues from 2002)
Phil Jevons (a star in the reserves but only 8 full appearances, into lower leagues from 2001)
Jamie Milligan (four sub apps, then Blackpool, then knee injury and non-league)
Tony Hibbert (still a Toffee)
Francis Jeffers (£8m to Arsenal, all LOLs thereafter)
David Knowles (no pro career AFAIK)
Kevin McLeod (five sub apps, QPR, Swansea, Wycombe...)

Michael Jones, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 13:10 (nine years ago) link

Sorry but 40 > 1 shit professional is someone being fucking terrible at their job.

Pennant, Bentley, Sidwell, Cole - all from the same group of Arsenal kids and taught the Arsenal youth coaches to focus as much on talent as making sure they don't end up complete dickholes.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 17:13 (nine years ago) link

I mean how the fuck are Brazilian academies able to produce a new team, of which there are 1 or 2 outstanding players potentially of the highest quality A YEAR and yet a well funded London club, not long ago residents in the best league in the world (tm) able to get 1 lower league player from 40?

Blaming it on video games is stupid and passing the buck.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 17:15 (nine years ago) link

Sorry but 40 > 1 shit professional

refers to what, out of interest?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 17:18 (nine years ago) link

I interviewed a youth development guy at charlton. he said of 40 players that come in and out of a group as it moves from u-11 to u-17, two will end up playing professional football and one will make a career out of it, most likely in the lower leagues. And that's at a club with a good record in youth development.

― Pete W, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 13:27 (6 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 19:00 (nine years ago) link

"England have so many top stars in their squad that they will always be part and parcel of the international football scene," Müller said. "But there are so many 'alpha males' in their squad. It is difficult to have so many alpha males and have them row in the same direction. You don't only need chiefs. You also need a few Indians.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2010/jun/30/world-cup-england-thomas-muller/print

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 19:03 (nine years ago) link

how much does a player earn for playing for England btw? I am fucking hating the 'oh he earns 130k a week and cannot do it for a different club that doesn't pay him that' but don't have the figures to spit in their face w/

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:10 (nine years ago) link

Michael Owen on England: “Life has changed and kids cannot be getting the same practice as my generation. Yet look at the beaches in Brazil and the streets of Africa and you can see why so many players come from abroad.”

Is the problem maybe that our beaches aren't up to scratch?

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:17 (nine years ago) link

David Cameroon to make England's streets as good as African streets, speech at 11am tomorrow.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:18 (nine years ago) link

You used to get a few hundred quid for playing for England, but I bet that's not the case now (these guys should be paying us, right?)

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:25 (nine years ago) link

Interesting hotchpotch of an article, nakh - good points all round. I'm most impressed with Müller - can you imagine any England player being interested enough in another side to offer thoughts like that?

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:30 (nine years ago) link

Germany? Oh yeah Schwein... that guy with a big name has a fit wag who is free to call me, yeah?

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:46 (nine years ago) link

Thomas Muller's wife is lush.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 20:50 (nine years ago) link

this is kinda late but with 'all said and done' about this recently deceased team, i don't think there was much chance of them ever doing anything, whoever was managing them and whatever the tactics. the hilariously protracted gerrard+-lampard inanity is kinda central to this.

there's a core of athletic, intelligent and fairly skilful defenders; ferdinand, king (:x), a cole, g johnson (ish), previously campbell too. they're comparable in type to many of the top defenders elsewhere, though perhaps not as composed in possession. they're fairly good and could justify some of the popular hope invested in them.

and of course wayne rooney and previously owen, whose premature obsolesence apparently doesn't matter cuz rooney is better up front on his own. they're highly accomplished players.

all of which is dependent on having some kind of midfield. so.....lampard is rly intriguing here. basically i think he *is* a first rate player, tho i'm not sure how helpful it is to think of him as a cm, even if notionally he is.

post mourinho he usually plays towards the left in a 4-1-2-3, with a makelele/mikel covering him. there is malouda/robben (first rate lws) to stretch the flank and the incomparable drogba and essien, the former's hold-up play and latter's knack for recovering possesion high up the pitch allows for fairly simple and rapid attacks which drag apart the defence, with lampard arriving late to supply the final pass or more usually clear up the spoils. he's insanely good at this and is able to be a hugely successful 'cm' without having much of a short passing game, ie what it's all about.

then gerrard, superbly athletic, awesome striking technique and a good tackler, can be devastating as support striker with his instinctual sense for attacking space during rapid breaks - if that's in short supply he is limited by his suspect concentration and atrophied possession game. another first rate player but only in a very specific context where his indiscipline is compensated for or even encouraged. basically not a cm despite having qualified as such and possessing some of its skillset in abundance.

gerrard/lampard are franchise players, embodying a certain mythic english archetype (the box to box midfielder) but sensibly adapted for current trends by iberan negativists. they're each twinned with examples of another archetype of limited viability outside of local context, the catastrophically slow and clumsy yet inspirational/shouty defender.

the other english players are often franchise players from lesser lights in the pl, possessing one or two noteworthy qualities, usually from the numinous 'power, pace, passion' checklist of motd fame. to which is sometimes added 'ability' - to be able to pass, move and control with distinction. this drudgery is usually left to the guest workers.

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 21:32 (nine years ago) link

Is there even anyone else who fulfills the gerrard/lampard box-to-box midfielder role in the premiership? Or anywhere else? I guess Kaka but it seems a dying breed.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 21:40 (nine years ago) link

iberan negativists

^ saw this and wondered what having a go at Portugal had to do with all this

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 21:44 (nine years ago) link

they aren't rly box-to-box are they tho (xp)? they might make a few challenges in their own half but basically one is a support striker and the other a sort of deep-lying poacher. there's very little resemblance to the attacking mids employed by the top continental teams.

kaká may play like gerrard on fast counterattacks, but he's quite different (and superior) when having to attack an entrenched defence.

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 30 June 2010 21:53 (nine years ago) link

quality not having a play on me trying to figure out *that* kinda player. stephen ireland kinda like it too. maybe box-to-box not the best way to describe them but they are all v similar in terms of style

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 30 June 2010 21:57 (nine years ago) link

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/7825/beckssplash11076855a.jpg

Anyone else seen the Stevie G rumours?

James Mitchell, Thursday, 1 July 2010 08:02 (nine years ago) link

Is this the whole 16yr old sister preggers thing? Hasn't that been doing the rounds for ages?

I'm being a smartass here, but in a fun way (NotEnough), Thursday, 1 July 2010 08:11 (nine years ago) link

Now it's got a bit about EBJT pasted on the end.

James Mitchell, Thursday, 1 July 2010 08:20 (nine years ago) link

tragic football story^

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:06 (nine years ago) link

careless, imo, for a dude to get someone pregnant when he claims to be able to 'turn it on and off' when he needs to.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:06 (nine years ago) link

ps nakhchivan ur football thoughts have been conspicuous by absence in this the darkest of times imo

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:07 (nine years ago) link

So a large portion of that seems to be unsubstantiated, and I could care less about the private lives of, well, anybody really. But somebody - Capello really - shd be deciding whether players are carrying around too much irl baggage to have their heads in the game. Hey, maybe somebody did.

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:08 (nine years ago) link

Michael Owen on England: “Life has changed and kids cannot be getting the same practice as my generation. Yet look at the beaches in Brazil and the streets of Africa and you can see why so many players come from abroad.”

Or the beaches of the Netherlands and North Germany for that matter

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:27 (nine years ago) link

I love the idea that a judge bases the legal framework of a case around his concern for the England manager's position.

Pete W, Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:39 (nine years ago) link

tbf, there's a precedent. Chilcot Enquiry strongly rumoured to have been a whitewash so as to avoid upsetting Sven's prepartions for Euro 2004 qualifiers.

I Ain't Committing Suicide For No Crab (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:42 (nine years ago) link

Great comments on Gerrard and Lampard btw.

Regarding the 'athletic, intelligent (hmmmm, Johnson? Rio?) and fairly skilful defenders', one of the real problems I can see is that there are none of these coming through. Three of England's current leading centre-halves - Terry, Ferdinand, King - are very comfortable on the ball, but I don't think any of the younger ones are in the slightest.

File lack of ball-playing centre half alongside lack of first-rate goalkeeper, deep-lying passing defensive midfielder and mobile poacher and I really think England are going to struggle to qualify for the next two tournaments.

Pete W, Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:45 (nine years ago) link

Though should be said I've not seen enough of Smalling, who is probably useful.

Pete W, Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:47 (nine years ago) link

Thomas Muller's wife is lush.

Seems a bit young to be married but, having seen his wife, better to snap her up before someone else does

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:50 (nine years ago) link

If only Tom Huddlestone could run and turn he would be the answer to all our prayers :(

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:51 (nine years ago) link

Or some of them at least.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:52 (nine years ago) link

Surprising number of that much-hyped England Under-17 side seem to come from Liverpool and Everton and they may get a chance in the coming years. A few from Man City, who obviously won't, and a handful from yer Southamptons and Boros and what have you who will probably end up picked up by Spurs or Arsenal or whoever in the future.

No one from Chelsea/Man United/Spurs/Arsenal at all.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:57 (nine years ago) link

Lancashire = home of English sport

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 09:59 (nine years ago) link

(Arsenal had a striker on called Benik Afobe and the playmaker who got them to the final was injured in the semis, an Arsenal lad called Chuks Aneke, although he may still choose Ghana iirc as his international team.)

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:01 (nine years ago) link

An England player called Chuks would be a boon to tabloid sub-editors everywhere, which reminds me

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:03 (nine years ago) link

there's a lot of misconception around the success of junior sides. as that lengthy nytimes ajax piece explains, it's far better to have 2 potentially great players in a crappy u-17 team than 6 or 7 who'll eke out careers in the championship.

Regarding the 'athletic, intelligent (hmmmm, Johnson? Rio?) and fairly skilful defenders', one of the real problems I can see is that there are none of these coming through. Three of England's current leading centre-halves - Terry, Ferdinand, King - are very comfortable on the ball, but I don't think any of the younger ones are in the slightest.

naturally i did caveat glen johnson who is prone to catalepsy in defence. if rodwell is developed into a cb as moyes wishes then add another to that list.

File lack of ball-playing centre half alongside lack of first-rate goalkeeper, deep-lying passing defensive midfielder and mobile poacher and I really think England are going to struggle to qualify for the next two tournaments.

dunno about mobile poacher, bojan looks amazing but it's difficult to see where he fits into a 4-3-3, or even 4-2-3-1. so little 4-4-2 at the highest level. huddlestone shd be played in a 4-3-3 and if tottenham get a rly good forward he may get his wish next to modric and palacios.

nakhchivan, Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:10 (nine years ago) link

I just assume most of these youth players will be the same as they've always been in the past: kids who are big and skillful for their age but end up vanishing as adults once their developmental advantage has gone bye-bye.

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:11 (nine years ago) link

One of the Everton under-17s is apparently called Jasper Johns. Good target man, I hear.

Stevie T, Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:14 (nine years ago) link

^^^^otm.

Huddlestone next to a shield like Rodwell or Cattermole, with an inventive attacking midfielder in front of him (Wilshere?) would be terrific to watch imo.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:15 (nine years ago) link

One of the Everton under-17s is apparently called Jasper Johns. Good target man, I hear.

Wow

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:19 (nine years ago) link

huddlestone shd be played in a 4-3-3 and if tottenham get a rly good forward he may get his wish next to modric and palacios.

451, iirc tbh, based around Pav

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:21 (nine years ago) link

x-post

No one from Chelsea/Man United/Spurs/Arsenal at all.

Think this is wrong, Chelsea had two players in the team, McEachren and a 15-year-old called Chalobah, and William Keane def plays for United.

http://www.uefa.com/under17/matches/season=2010/round=15345/match=2002343/index.html

Pete W, Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:27 (nine years ago) link

1 youth player per annum graduating to stay first team = fielding an entire team of homegrowns ranging from age 30-19.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:29 (nine years ago) link

I was basing that on Wikipedia, so it could well be wrong.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:30 (nine years ago) link

really, what huddlestone needs is a tough tackling yet mobile player behind him, and a player who makes the late runs into the box and can take a pot shot too to stretch the defence/midfield.

zokora, jenas are prob good bets.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:32 (nine years ago) link

Take it to the Tottenham thread dudes.

Pete W, Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:33 (nine years ago) link

Or do a diagram, one or the other.

Pete W, Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:33 (nine years ago) link

^
|
<- Cattermole ->

Huddlestone
/ | \
/ | \
| | |

-> runs/screening/rough nasty sweaty work
- wonderful elegant killer balls

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:38 (nine years ago) link

- Profit

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:47 (nine years ago) link

ya profit sheesh

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:52 (nine years ago) link

I think what i'm tryin to say there is that cattermole and huddlestone should comandeer a spider legged spaceship for maximum effect

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 10:53 (nine years ago) link

Germany skipper Philipp Lahm has delivered a withering put-down to England by claiming his side "now have to beat a big team".

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:39 (nine years ago) link

I don't even think the Germans are trying to zing at this point, just speaking truth.

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:41 (nine years ago) link

Worse again, I think Beckenbauer is trying to fuckin help ye

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:41 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I thought Beckenbauer sounded more disappointed and concerned than anything.

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:43 (nine years ago) link

Those Germans really dig that 'measured by the strength of yr enemies' shit imo

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:48 (nine years ago) link

Not unlike English pundits expressing concern for the plight of Scottish football

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:48 (nine years ago) link

English pundits like Hansen and Lawro you mean?

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:51 (nine years ago) link

Get fucked are you getting away with palming Lawro off on us.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:54 (nine years ago) link

srs line in the sand shit right there

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:54 (nine years ago) link

lololololol

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 12:57 (nine years ago) link

have you seen the news lately? anyone can get an irish passport, sure.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:00 (nine years ago) link

http://scottdouglas.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/tony-cascarino.gif

"Ah begob 'tis the wearin' of the green"

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:01 (nine years ago) link

English pundits like Hansen and Lawro you mean?

Has Alan Hansen ever spoken about Scottish football? Lawro has, occasionally, sure he's a terrible man for the pontificatin'

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:01 (nine years ago) link

I'm pondering now if Hansen's ever had occasion to broach the subject.

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:02 (nine years ago) link

xxp swear to fuck i have that exact jpg just ready to paste

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:03 (nine years ago) link

1st up on GIS innit

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:04 (nine years ago) link

This is the pity of Scotland not qualifying for major tournaments, now that media is more hysterically Anglocentric than it's ever been (IMO), I wonder how they'd handle it, Hansen would have to do some research on Scottish players for a start

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:04 (nine years ago) link

Fingers crossed that we're on our way back to the 70s, with Scotland qualifying and England not qualifying, oh what fun!

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:06 (nine years ago) link

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Football/Pix/pictures/2008/12/5/1228491824927/Tony-Cascarino-001.jpg

was gonna go with this xp, being garotted for defiling the green by true son o' the soil

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:06 (nine years ago) link

xxp re hansen having to do some 'research' -would he fuck, going on the level of research demonstrated this past couple of years.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:07 (nine years ago) link

HE'S RESEARCHED SOME OFF-LICENCES, AMIRITE??

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:07 (nine years ago) link

*slouch* *sneer* *pick up expenses*

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:08 (nine years ago) link

I can imagine the reaction you'd get asking townsend to come spend a few hours sweating on the bog with you

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:09 (nine years ago) link

I can't imagine, amidst all this WC shockah fallout, that England still won't absolutely cruise to qualificiation for the Euros, btw.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:11 (nine years ago) link

btw I still think if Argentina win the World Cup under Maradonna this year, Gazza should get a shot as England manager.

voodoo sailor (ken c), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:11 (nine years ago) link

Fuck that, If Maradona wins the WC for Argentina, the FA should be targetting him

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:12 (nine years ago) link

I dunno man, Wales will be up for it and that Montenegro team must have 30 or 40 professionals to choose from.

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:12 (nine years ago) link

I would just like to see Maradona try and snog Stuart Pearce tbh

I saw Mommy kissing Santa Cruz (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:13 (nine years ago) link

I dunno man, Wales will be up for it and that Montenegro team must have 30 or 40 professionals to choose from.

Once you've faced the might of Slovenia you can have few fears

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:15 (nine years ago) link

Fuck that, If Maradona wins the WC for Argentina, the FA should be targetting him
― ,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:12 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Nah surely it's time for an english manager now? After a swede, a dutch and an italian??

voodoo sailor (ken c), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:16 (nine years ago) link

Has anybody suggested Shearer yet?

It's a rest day, WE WANT TO SHOP (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:20 (nine years ago) link

I suppose if you take the position that the Malvinas are British territory, it's not that far of a leap to getting Diego on board tbh.

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:21 (nine years ago) link

xpost fuck alan shearer, he's too fucking dearer

voodoo sailor (ken c), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:24 (nine years ago) link

Maradona worked for Argentina, so surely only one man will do for England:

http://www.xrv.org.uk/forums/attachments/chatter/302d1181841322-bbc-headline-abbas-warns-collapse-gaza-gazza.jpg

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:25 (nine years ago) link

It's just possible that Gazza will be too out of it to worry about what the press thinks of his team selection.

It's a rest day, WE WANT TO SHOP (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:27 (nine years ago) link

Jimmy 5 Bellies at centre half.

Adge Cutler & the Özils (NickB), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:28 (nine years ago) link

Do England shirts come in XXXXXXXXL?

Adge Cutler & the Özils (NickB), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:29 (nine years ago) link

Clubs at which, according to Soccerbase, the England Squad from 1990 began their careers (and their clubs at the time of the tournament):

Stoke City (Derby County)
Brighton and Hove Albion (Glasgow Rangers)
Wealdstone (Nottinghasm Forest)
Reading (Manchester United)
Nottingham Forest (Nottingham Forest)
Ipswich Town (Glasgow Rangers)
West Bromwich Albion (Manchester United)
Tow Law Town (Olympique de Marseille)
Wallsend (Liverpool)
Leicester (Tottenham Hotspur)
Sudbury Court (Liverpool)
Fulham (QPR)
Nottingham Forest (Glasgow Rangers)
Oxford United (Derby County)
Aston Villa (Chelsea)
Everton (Liverpool)
Manchester United (Aston Villa)
Nottingham Forest (Nottingham Forest)
Newcastle United (Tottenham Hotspur)
Burnley (Glasgow Rangers)
West Bromwich Albion (Wolverhampton Wanderers)
Leeds United (Arsenal)
Edgware Town (Chelsea)

This year:

Watford (Portsmouth)
West Ham United (Liverpool)
Arsenal (Chelsea)
Liverpool (Liverpool)
Nottingham Forest (Tottenham Hotspur)
Chelsea (Chelsea)
Leeds (Tottenham Hotspur)
West Ham United (Chelsea)
Tottenham Hotspur (Tottenham Hotspur)
Everton (Manchester United)
West Ham United (Chelsea)
Norwich City (West Ham United)
Liverpool (Aston Villa)
Aston Villa (Manchester City)
Luton Town (West Ham United)
Leeds United (Aston Villa)
Nottingham Forest (Manchester City)
Liverpool (Liverpool)
Charlton Athletic (Tottenham Hotspur)
Tottenham Hotspur (Tottenham Hotspur)
Leicester City (Aston Villa)
West Ham United (Manchester United)
Shrewsbury Town (Manchester City)

We've been worrying about Premiership teams giving chances to their youth team products but I wonder whether we should think more about how and why English football has managed to reuce the supply lines of players from smaller clubs to the best clubs?

Tim, Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:29 (nine years ago) link

Everybody knows the top 4 have got all the best English players, silly

It's a rest day, WE WANT TO SHOP (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:30 (nine years ago) link

West Bromwich Albion (Wolverhampton Wanderers)

Should've have 50-odd caps :D

It's a rest day, WE WANT TO SHOP (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:31 (nine years ago) link

I didn't know he started at West Brom - was he a boyhood baggy?

Tim, Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:32 (nine years ago) link

Don't think so. He was born in Tipton anyway.

It's a rest day, WE WANT TO SHOP (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:34 (nine years ago) link

Liverpool and, uh, Rangers dominating the 1990 squad

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:35 (nine years ago) link

how and why English football has managed to reuce the supply lines of players from smaller clubs to the best clubs

because now the bigger clubs buy all before them at as young an age as possible, and then nurture them in a professional and successful manner through the ranks?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:35 (nine years ago) link

xp And Forest.

not xpost: more than they did then? It's not like Manchester United didn't have a youth team in the 70s and '80s.

The point I'm trying to make is serious, if not very thoroughly thought-through: finding the lads who will be the very best players is always hit and miss, even for clubs like Ajax who do it remarkably well - guessing which of your youth will be the best players in 8-10 years time will always involve mistakes. If we have reduced the way back for players who miss the cut at 14 then we're likely missing some class.

Tim, Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:41 (nine years ago) link

tryign to think who the second tottenham (tottenham) player is besides king- is it crouch? not sure he had signed forms for us tbh

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:46 (nine years ago) link

xp

no, i agree with you tim, to be honest

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:47 (nine years ago) link

Yeah it's Crouch, he did actually sign a professional contract and he played for the Spurs youth team.

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:49 (nine years ago) link

xp It is. Doesn't look like he made the first team so maybe that should read QPR (Tottenham).

Of course I have an ulterior motive because it'd be really nice to see a few more of those pounds sloshing into the lower leagues.

There's a thing in the back of my mind where I suspect that coaches select (at least in part) on players' ability to absorb and respond to coaching, and that's one of the things which programmes out the hint of the mercurial which England could do with so badly just now. But that is baseless speculation really.

Tim, Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:52 (nine years ago) link

xpost how tall was crouch when he first signed?

voodoo sailor (ken c), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:58 (nine years ago) link

(and how good were his feet?)

voodoo sailor (ken c), Thursday, 1 July 2010 13:59 (nine years ago) link

Wealdstone (Nottinghasm Forest)

Think the local tourist board should change the name to Nottinghasm forthwith.

Stevie T, Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:03 (nine years ago) link

Now available for call-up again

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:08 (nine years ago) link

Marlon King out yet?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:11 (nine years ago) link

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/04_03/bartonDM_468x589.jpg

HE'S READY

Vulvuzela (Matt DC), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:13 (nine years ago) link

we did that england XI already didn't we?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:14 (nine years ago) link

With Adams for manager, obviously?

I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:15 (nine years ago) link

nah, he'd be too preachy.

gazza has already been locked in for this one imo

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:17 (nine years ago) link

Didn't Harry say he'd take the England job?

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:35 (nine years ago) link

yeah he said that.

he wasn't asked by anyone important, but he said it nonetheless

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Thursday, 1 July 2010 14:44 (nine years ago) link

Fabio's staying.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Friday, 2 July 2010 13:41 (nine years ago) link

Arsenal have made the bold decision to pull out of the FA Premier Reserve League. The surprise move comes despite leaked details of a much needed revamp, which is set to come into play for the new season.

The Gunners join Fulham, Stoke City, Birmingham City and Tottenham Hotspur in deciding to pull out of Reserves League, and will instead opt to arrange their own second string fixtures in the form of friendlies. The decision will see a complete overhaul of youth development at Arsenal, with those previously in the Reserve team now stepping up into the first-team as part of the 25 man squad rule. The Under 18′s will continue as normal, while a large number of players will be leaving on loan.

The clubs prowess in the Reserves has been well documented, and it was thought that Arsenal would be one of the key participants in the new re-shuffled league. However, this move is a sign of the quality in the Academy, with players now poised for a quicker route from Under 18′s football into the first-team. The best players will be moved up to work with Arsène Wenger, while those just needing a little extra will leave on loan.

Neil Banfield’s role should also adjust slightly. He is expected to focus more heavily on helping making the transition into the first-team a smooth one, while still taking the friendly games.

Further details of how the new ‘Arsenal XI’ will play their games this season should be announced shortly.

ignoring the arsenal specific bits of the arsenal based article- messing around with what is seen as the 1st step for youths as english football shows it obv needs more than a knock out round that could see most clubs u21s not have anything to play for after the first couple months of the season. ffs fa.

samuel :D (a hoy hoy), Friday, 2 July 2010 15:13 (nine years ago) link

Davenport was accused of launching the ferocious attack on his 28-year-old sister Cara after being told she was pregnant again.

hum, Gerrard or Terry?

voodoo sailor (ken c), Friday, 2 July 2010 16:12 (nine years ago) link

28-year-old tho

nakhchivan, Friday, 2 July 2010 16:12 (nine years ago) link

too young for Rooney

voodoo sailor (ken c), Friday, 2 July 2010 16:14 (nine years ago) link

LET'S be clear about one thing - no country has ever won the World Cup with a foreign coach.

Fucking stupid walrus face, might as well suggest digging up Alf Ramsey.

James Mitchell, Sunday, 4 July 2010 10:10 (nine years ago) link

But whoever succeeds Capello will have a huge job on their hands otherwise we might have to accept suffering a spell in the international wilderness as Holland did in the 1980s.

Holland won euro '88.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 4 July 2010 10:59 (nine years ago) link

But yeah, really looking forward to Capello choosing John Terry for the Hungary friendly. You know, just acting like nothing happened and then killing his Eng career, slowly but surely, and finally dropping him at some point during qualification for the Euros.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 4 July 2010 11:03 (nine years ago) link

Haha, 'strue - you'd think he would've cited england's spell in the wilderness in the 70s instead. I'm sure that must've been under foreign coaches too, so it would suit his argument perfectly.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 4 July 2010 11:05 (nine years ago) link

Yeah its got nothing to do with it.

Also given that Dunga and Maradona failed to lift the cup people might have been saying all sorts about how former players don't win WCs as coaches but bcz Beckenbauer did with Germany in '90 that won't happen as that scenario has worked, even if only the one time in nearly 20 WCs.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 4 July 2010 11:12 (nine years ago) link

But whoever succeeds Capello will have a huge job on their hands otherwise we might have to accept suffering a spell in the international wilderness as Holland did in the 1980s.

did they have a foreign manager or something?

voodoo sailor (ken c), Sunday, 4 July 2010 12:41 (nine years ago) link

*All* foreign teams have foreign managers.

I Ain't Committing Suicide For No Crab (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Sunday, 4 July 2010 12:44 (nine years ago) link

I think the point is everyone has managers who aren't Big Sam's Big Fat Face.

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Sunday, 4 July 2010 12:45 (nine years ago) link

Also given that Dunga and Maradona failed to lift the cup people might have been saying all sorts about how former players don't win WCs as coaches but bcz Beckenbauer did with Germany in '90 that won't happen as that scenario has worked, even if only the one time in nearly 20 WCs.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, 4 July 2010 11:12 (Yesterday) Bookmark

carlos perreira, iirc?

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Monday, 5 July 2010 01:16 (nine years ago) link

Heskey, who will “wait and see” on his own England future, reckons fellow squad members in South Africa James Milner and Stephen Warnock aren’t the only Villa stars with a part to play in the qualification campaign for the European Championships in 2012.

He said: “I think there is a great group of players behind this on. Didn’t the under -21s get to a final? The under-17s, too, became European champions.

“James Milner has just been promoted to the senior squad and there’s some good new lads coming through. So yes, I still think the future is safe.

“Look at Villa. As well as James, there’s English players in Stewart Downing, Ashley Young and Gabriel Agbonlahor.

“I don’t think there will be a new, huge batch of players sweeping into the England squad. There’s going to be fresh players, though, younger ones.

“There’s going to be some experienced players still doing their thing.

“But we will have young legs in there too so, fingers crossed, everything is bright in my mind.”

Emile Heskey backs Villa for England

James Mitchell, Monday, 5 July 2010 09:44 (nine years ago) link

Not sure Heskey isn't OTM

,,,,,,eeeeleon (darraghmac), Monday, 5 July 2010 09:46 (nine years ago) link

Only clicked on the link because I was sure he meant David Villa.

James Mitchell, Monday, 5 July 2010 09:47 (nine years ago) link

“England players want Fabio Capello to be fired following the release of the ‘Capello Index’ ratings. A backlash from the FA in May forced the England boss to shelve the launch of the internet site that rated every player and team at this summer’s World Cup finals. But the controversial stats were published yesterday provoking a storm of protest from the players. An England star said: “The FA should either fire him or he should do the honourable thing and resign.”

England team wish for Capello to be sacked for he is showing the world how shit they were. Previously they were able to get away with it without anyone noticing.

one man meme-denier (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 18 July 2010 10:54 (nine years ago) link

Pretty much sums up everything I believe about The Englolish Game.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 10:55 (nine years ago) link

For a second I thought this was the much-vaunted under-17s.

Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 10:59 (nine years ago) link

But here's the thing:

English lumpish big strong we'll-worry-about-technique-and-possession-when-we-see-what-height-you-finish-up-son youth development has obviously been a thing for a long long time.

But the knowledge of this as a problem has been around for probably 10-15 years now. Maybe tied to acceptance of foreign talent into the english game in a big way?

When does it start to get solved?

xp maybe Matt just answered that for me

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:01 (nine years ago) link

Wouldn't be in the least surprised if the under-17s were cut from the same cloth. "Hey guyz we won this tournament against kids half our size but twice as able. Shd be no problem once we're all at the same physical level eh?"

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:01 (nine years ago) link

(that said i saw england u-15's playing a few years back and they were technically superb- all boro players in the midfield iirc, including a johnson. what happens these guys?)

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:02 (nine years ago) link

Allegedly the U17s can pass the ball properly, which is a good start.

Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 11:02 (nine years ago) link

Said it a month ago didn't I? 10 mediocre players with sound technical skills wd be a thousand percent improvement on the shite we've got now.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:04 (nine years ago) link

is that wolves fan or england victim speaking?

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:07 (nine years ago) link

is this mentality tied to over-competitiveness at youth level? the bigger kids at 10 are more likely to win an under-11s tourney (particularly if they're played on fullsized pitches), so they get picked and developed ahead of maybe the potential Leo Messis?

xpost lol england "fan" but I don't care enough to be a victim. Wolves heading in the right direction imo

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:12 (nine years ago) link

bit peeved about the whole Maierhofer debacle tho. Dude deserved a chance.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:13 (nine years ago) link

Tha article is ok but somehow also confused as to how 'fannying' they want from the kids that are coming through. Some 'sophistication' ok but not too much, y'know. Almost scared to bore people with passing.

In some ways it'll probably be a small country doing a Hungary 7-1 score at Wembley that might get the FA or someone to wake up. The problem then becomes the Premier League (the sky ad on the side of that F365 article) that will try and resist the change.

Also, there is love for the Championship, the product gets people through the gates. Wonder how that compares with lower leagues across europe.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 July 2010 11:13 (nine years ago) link

is this mentality tied to over-competitiveness at youth level?

Yes, I think so. The excellent article on Ajax stressed the focus on individuals rather than team results- often to the extreme of entire youth teams really only existing to support the development of the one or two potential stars in it.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:14 (nine years ago) link

Almost scared to bore people with passing.

i'd say nearly 50% of the problem could broadly be aligned with this tbh.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:16 (nine years ago) link

scared to bore people != successfully completing 5 yards passes

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:31 (nine years ago) link

English lumpish big strong we'll-worry-about-technique-and-possession-when-we-see-what-height-you-finish-up-son youth development has obviously been a thing for a long long time.

A long long time, like the entire history of English football basically?

In some ways it'll probably be a small country doing a Hungary 7-1 score at Wembley that might get the FA or someone to wake up.

That was 1953 remember.

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:33 (nine years ago) link

Yeah but I think Ramsey's 60s team were tactically innovative and modern. Problem is we've had nobody forward-thinking in charge since then- Venables perhaps, but I hear the "Theme from Flash Harry" in my head whenever I think of the dude.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:36 (nine years ago) link

Not that that's got anything to do with his tactical nous.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

was gonna say ask me would i swap arry for straight man curbishley or whoever

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:37 (nine years ago) link

Dodgy geezers make the best managers, look how shit Italian football went when they tried to clean it up.

Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 11:39 (nine years ago) link

Yeah but I think Ramsey's 60s team were tactically innovative and modern

At the time, yes - but you've been playing the same way ever since! Also, Ramsey was all about hard work + organisation + fitness not flair

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:40 (nine years ago) link

http://www.tvcream.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/cole.jpg

"Awight lads, vis is called ver Chwistmas Twee"

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

Also, Ramsey was all about hard work + organisation + fitness not flair

one out of the first three present at the WC

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

Hard work + organisation + fitness = Catenaccio? Works for me.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:43 (nine years ago) link

Also, Ramsey was all about hard work + organisation + fitness not flair

one out of the first three present at the WC

― "It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:42 (40 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I can't even figure out which one you are suggesting.

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:44 (nine years ago) link

lol that's whay yer shit

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:45 (nine years ago) link

(I was granting them hard work, tbh)

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:46 (nine years ago) link

Hard work + organisation + fitness = Catenaccio? Works for me.

Fuck yer Catenaccio

http://www.rankopedia.com/CandidatePix/32860.gif

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:46 (nine years ago) link

Thinking about Spain this World Cup a lot of the outright flair players didn't really produce the results tho. Iniesta for example did a lot of that mazy ball-on-a-string shit to little effect, mostly. It was the organisation and work ethic that won them the tournament.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:49 (nine years ago) link

no....

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 11:50 (nine years ago) link

I'm biased because I grew up watching the England vs. Scotland game every year... which was always the same... five foot nothing Scottish forwards trying to dribble their way past nine foot tall English defenders, ball playing Scottish midifeld trying to do the unfashionable thing and pass the ball run off their feet by English duracell bunnies, comedy Scottish goalkeeper, some poaching bastard like Lineker scores the only goal of the game

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:51 (nine years ago) link

the truism about tiki-taka as defensive strategy kinda proved itself in the world cup.....the other side seldom wins the ball, and when they do it's largely in their own half w/ almost the entire spain team in front of them ready to recover possession

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 11:52 (nine years ago) link

xp watching some old highlights the other day, didn't realise at the time just how good Lineker was

I'm totally a fan of tiki-taka but it seems to me that as a system it doesn't require outright flair players. Strong technique and positional sense, yeah. Jesus I would settle for (excuse pun) passable technique from an England team at the moment.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:57 (nine years ago) link

xp watching some old highlights the other day, didn't realise at the time just how good Lineker was

... great at diving, just ask Cameroon.

Germany turned things round pretty quickly, didn't they?

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 11:59 (nine years ago) link

When did England beat them 5-1? They were fucking rubbish then.

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:01 (nine years ago) link

Gay guys more open-minded, innit?

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:01 (nine years ago) link

Also perhaps it had reached the point where Ballack was the albatross dragging them down. Felt the same way about Bryan Robson's entire international career tbh.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:04 (nine years ago) link

Yes. And Lamps/Stevie G?

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:08 (nine years ago) link

I'm totally a fan of tiki-taka but it seems to me that as a system it doesn't require outright flair players. Strong technique and positional sense, yeah. Jesus I would settle for (excuse pun) passable technique from an England team at the moment.

xavi, iniesta, silva and villa may not be ~flair~ players in that they seldom go in for meretricious tricks, but their close control and core skills are of a rarified level that other sides can't match (except for argentina w/ messi and aguero)

there aren't really any lessons for england in their success because england will never play that football, and will be lucky to develop a single player in a generation who gets near their level of technique and football-sense

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 12:09 (nine years ago) link

hence the abortive efforts to include 35 yr old scholes

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 12:10 (nine years ago) link

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:13 (nine years ago) link

I remember seeing little kids -6 or 7 yo - playing in a park in Barcelona, just a pickup game, not an organised event. The amount of skill and positioning sense was amazing, none of the boot the ball forward and everyone chase it stuff you get over here. its a football culture thing as much as training methods imo.

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

brazil and holland do this all the time and other countries are catching them up so no.

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:28 (nine years ago) link

there aren't really any lessons for england in their success because england will never play that football, and will be lucky to develop a single player in a generation who gets near their level of technique and football-sense

― nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:09 (19 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_rpHP5-LnPcM/Sx6etA1GJLI/AAAAAAAABXk/dMDeTmJmeu4/s1600/wilshere_wenger.jpg

SUP Y'ALLLLLLLLL

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:29 (nine years ago) link

xpost

Yeah this is what I think. Don't really buy into culture as an expression of National Spirit or some other 19th century nuttiness, think cultures can be changed if the will is there.

Of course I don't doubt for a second that in England's case, the will ain't there.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 12:34 (nine years ago) link

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

brazil and holland do this all the time and other countries are catching them up so no.

― one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, July 23, 2010 12:28 PM (34 minutes ago) Bookmark

a hoy hoy otm here.

Also think tomofthenest is correct about the culture thing.
I would settle for England developing players who don't mind receiving the ball when marked. Also players happy to give the ball to teammates who AREN'T in space confident that they will manage to retain possession. A lot of the time with England their passing looks so poor, and they revert to the long ball so often, not because the players are terrible at finding space necessarily but because they seem to rule out passing short to anyone if an opponent is in the general vicinity, oddly enough they seem happy to pump a long ball to someone similarly marked so go figure.

pandemic, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:14 (nine years ago) link

A pretty long and relatively unbroken stint of English club success in the Champions League has fooled much of the English footballing establishment into believing that everything's fine.

If we go four or five years without English clubs getting much further than the quarter or semi-final then that delusion might slip, but the clubs will spend big to avoid that happening, and probably not on English players.

Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:14 (nine years ago) link

scared to bore people != successfully completing 5 yards passes

― one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Its all varying the pace and number of passes, sometimes its 5 x 5 yeard passes, at others 30. Ultimately => whatever is necessary.

Part of the reason things don't change is prem league resistance but the other part is because we are mostly fed on championship type stuff which people really like (and is exciting as spectacle). That brings in the bacon, making the championship bigger than the Bundesliga, its all good except the once-in-four-years when Eng perform badly in a one month international competition and the fans beat themselves about until the end of August or so.

I can see other countries overtaking Eng because football isn't as big a show so there is less focus on 'product' and more room to get a good team with good technique playing well together.

Ultimately the way Eng may not be 'an expression of the national spirit' but its certainly an expression of the ways things are in the particular country.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:18 (nine years ago) link

Clubs like Doncaster or to an extent Notts Forest have played a more measured passing game in the Championship of late and I don't think it's had a negative effect on their gates tho?

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:21 (nine years ago) link

I would settle for England developing players who don't mind receiving the ball when marked. Also players happy to give the ball to teammates who AREN'T in space confident that they will manage to retain possession.

ties directly to technique, movement

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:25 (nine years ago) link

also, i suppose, the propensity of your opponents to press. see- spanish league, midfielders, bovvered?

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:30 (nine years ago) link

NV - But what if a lot of clubs lower down adopted a diff style, diff formations, etc. and toned down on what was described as 'stupid' in that F365 article?

Also I don't know what the football is like in Italian, German or Dutch lower leagues. I don't wanna get down and blame things on the championship in particular, but a wider look across the whole of eng football has to be taken.

xyzzzz__, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:33 (nine years ago) link

i don't know that i'd describe forest's passing game as 'measured' tho- they're a very attack minded team, they just keep the ball on the ground.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:34 (nine years ago) link

Do you think, in theory, that it's exceptionally difficult to develop players with technique and football-sense?

― flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:13 (1 hour ago)

to the level of iniesta, yeah

i'd say that depends on the national emphasis on technique (for w/e cultural reasons) and specifically the barcelona school which takes it to an extreme, so they can field an entire midfield of players who would be star #10s for the other big nations

even brazil, w/ 190m ppl and their illustrious history/enthusiasm for football only have a few super technical players (diego, robinho, neymar maybe) and even then they lack the efficiency and system-oriented play of x + i et al

i think you're probably correct w/ the hope that england can just develop similar types of players but with more comfortable close control and more patience, like if you want to field a team of big lads who can kick ppl, at least ensure they can 'play a bit' to use the telling cliché

germany are a far better exemplar than spain for england to follow, if there is the will (probably not as you say)

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:39 (nine years ago) link

england fwd with the best touch- k davies, btw

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:42 (nine years ago) link

Yeah I think expecting England to become a completely different footballing nation is wildly optimistic and unnecessary, but the gaping absence of fundamentals surely has got to be addressed. Thing is that it has to be the FA that takes that lead and I don't really see the FA as leaders.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:44 (nine years ago) link

i waver a bit re damning the english for lacking core skills when i think of a team like doncaster - regular players passing it around like buggery purely as a result of o'driscoll's bloody-mindedness on the training pitch.

to a lesser extent (more foreign players) you couldve said the same in recent years about mowbray at wba, or even magilton's one crazy month where it all went right at qpr - truly startling how quickly they reverted to donkeys once they lost their nerve and the manager started headbutting them.

r|t|c, Friday, 23 July 2010 13:56 (nine years ago) link

A pretty long and relatively unbroken stint of English club success in the Champions League has fooled much of the English footballing establishment into believing that everything's fine.

If we go four or five years without English clubs getting much further than the quarter or semi-final then that delusion might slip, but the clubs will spend big to avoid that happening, and probably not on English players.

― Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:14 (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Ummm... Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Spurs - the top 4, if not the big 4 - have spent the past ten years pumping money into youth development and are starting to see the effects of it (United's history of it, Arsenal is obv with 400 tricky midfielders, ok I dunno about Chelsea but they are letting go of a lot of 'big names' and not buying any replacements so its possible that opportunities for a Mancienne or whoever could open up?, and Spurs is Spurs, good w/ defenders, that Danny Rose fella etc.)

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:58 (nine years ago) link

xpost

Felt like at QPR you had a nice compact pitch that suited the passing game but it went to shit when you had to play away. Could be wrong about that but I guess the possibility of being out-muscled and out-hoofed on a huge pitch is one of the factors that makes it risky for teams to try and play it cute?

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:59 (nine years ago) link

look at fulham- fantastic footballers? not really. good tidy possession football? yep.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:59 (nine years ago) link

its possible that opportunities for a Mancienne or whoever could open up?

bollocks to that I think they should sell him :D

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 13:59 (nine years ago) link

nakh- kaka? ronaldinho? are these not surperior technical players? anyway yeah I agree that Germany should be the prototype to follow. That team still players with all the 'English fundamentals' 'national pride and passion', 'aggression', fast pace counter attacking, strength etc. but they have... you know... basic skill and technically ability and an understanding of basic tactics that we so dearly lack.

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:01 (nine years ago) link

i'm not sure it's technical ability so much as technical thought. most of england's attacking players can trap a ball (lol heskey) but they don't always (in fact pretty rarely) trap it with intent, already moving in a considered or preparing for the next pass- as xavi, iniesta, modric do

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:03 (nine years ago) link

yeah that is otm

one man meme-denier - jol in? (a hoy hoy), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:06 (nine years ago) link

English lumpish big strong we'll-worry-about-technique-and-possession-when-we-see-what-height-you-finish-up-son youth development has obviously been a thing for a long long time.

A long long time, like the entire history of English football basically?

I've been reading Jonathan Wilson's new one The Anatomy of England - was going to save my review 'til I'm finished - but he quotes liberally from the press at the time and these arguments have been going on forever, since at least 1929 when England lost in Spain. It basically plays out the same every time - horror and embarrassment, then putting it down to luck, then demanding the players show more pride & effort, then scapegoating a foreigner, then back to believing we're the best in the world. Until the next time.

I'm suspecting it's the insularity of the domestic game that means we always settle at the last stage. Nobody really cares about international success enough, except for two weeks every four years, and that isn't enough to justify proper change.

The book's brilliant btw.

Ismael Klata, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:09 (nine years ago) link

don't think kaká is quite at the iniesta level technically, but he is at least as great a player (superior physically, more direct and efficient)

ronaldinho yeah, but he probably won't do anything significant for brazil ever again

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:10 (nine years ago) link

d'you reckon printing this thread and sending it to the FA counts as a job application?

obv no foreigners, but for the rest of you

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:11 (nine years ago) link

Technique - it was notable for me, watching Holland-Brazil, how Kuyt could more than hold his own in the little no-space-quick-passing scenes that that game sometimes devolved into. Kuyt! The guy gets derided as a donkey here, evaluated only for his goalscoring ameliorated by his workrate - I couldn't even tell you what his technique's like 'til that game.

Ismael Klata, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:14 (nine years ago) link

it's shit, sorry

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:15 (nine years ago) link

every dog tho

nakhchivan, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:15 (nine years ago) link

No way xp - Capello will get two more years, then it'll be back to looking for passion when England fail again.

Ismael Klata, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:16 (nine years ago) link

I look at Steven Gerrard and especially Frank Lampard and I don't really imagine they lack the basic touch and technique to pass it properly, it's that English players are undisciplined and lack composure and that's where all the problems arise.

Matt DC, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:17 (nine years ago) link

Kuyt's touch and technique aren't great, but those around him make up for that imo. his movement and anticipation of those around him at that level is good though- but don't do much for you at a team where everything's based around a player called stevie me.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:19 (nine years ago) link

xpost

Perhaps, perhaps not. If you lack the composure or discipline to be an effective passer of the ball then you're simply not an effective passer, imo. Having the right mindset is technique too, really.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:20 (nine years ago) link

Have we made some proper time to have a good laugh at Gerrard's pretence of "choosing" to stay at Liverpool btw? Or am I invoking the Furies one more time?

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:21 (nine years ago) link

i've been trying to leave it, tbh. also liverpool 100% more likeable now under new management, regardless of players and argumental fans.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:23 (nine years ago) link

Ha, only cos you're sure they'll fail

Ismael Klata, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:25 (nine years ago) link

I'd forgotten how sympathetic I was to Liverpool prior to Rafa's reign of terror. Getting rid of Gerrard wd have completed the rehabilitation tho.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:26 (nine years ago) link

I don't think liverpool will 'fail' under roy, but jeez what's 'fail'? they'll not qualify for CL next season, but they'll be moving in a better direction than they have been for a while i think.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:30 (nine years ago) link

Liverpool will qualify for the CL next season

Ismael Klata, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:32 (nine years ago) link

sorry, wrong thread

Ismael Klata, Friday, 23 July 2010 14:32 (nine years ago) link

lol

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Friday, 23 July 2010 14:33 (nine years ago) link

Mertesacker Emptiness

Just noticed this. A+++ would lol again

James Mitchell, Friday, 23 July 2010 18:10 (nine years ago) link

how many threads do you guys need to flog the same dead horse? seriously it's like groundhog day around here, 8 threads with the same 2 opinions.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 24 July 2010 00:20 (nine years ago) link

Have we made some proper time to have a good laugh at Gerrard's pretence of "choosing" to stay at Liverpool btw?

have we made some proper time to say something bad about someone based on no fucking idea either way cos who the fuck has a clue about who did or didn't bid for anyone? if not RLOL.

and this goes for all gossip, not just gerrard.;

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 24 July 2010 00:24 (nine years ago) link

footballers what vile human beings, they can only aspire to be messageboard posters with all the associated achievements.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Saturday, 24 July 2010 00:25 (nine years ago) link

Man, these threads seriously need your moderating grumpy old man influence for balance, but I think Stevie can probably handle a bit of criticism to balance out the boneheaded "England superstars" bullshit hype that flourishes in plenty of mainstream media all year round. Think we all know when we're being unnecessarily scurrilous but personally the fact that I've not had a career as a Premier League footballer and serial failure at International level isn't gonna stop me from discussing people who have. Because I'm interested and because I spend enough time watching and thinking about footie.

Nice to see "you're all just jealous" get a run out off the bench tho.

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 24 July 2010 08:01 (nine years ago) link

Wouldn't have if it was Chelsea we were talking about, he would have still been sat there with Daniel Sturridge.

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Saturday, 24 July 2010 09:03 (nine years ago) link

Sturridge is at Chelsea?

flashing drill + penis fan (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 24 July 2010 09:07 (nine years ago) link

Criticising footy chat for being repetitive is like criticising water for being wet.

There's so much chat to be had, but there's not really that much to the game when it comes down to it, until you get into technical areas like tactics or finances or whatever. I like discussing those, but they don't really count as banter. Like I said above, even discussing what's wrong with the English game is just adding to a conversation that's been going on since at least 1929. I believe there's a back issue of Ye Private Eye from 1930 where legendary curmudgeon Mr L Garda hilariously lampoons an unfortunate correspondent who had rehashed the topic in his column the previous week.

Ismael Klata, Saturday, 24 July 2010 09:58 (nine years ago) link

local garda some kind of nominative determinism amirite

nakhchivan, Saturday, 24 July 2010 10:53 (nine years ago) link

local garda i've got your back fwiw.

far too much b.s. over far too little substance.

futile fucile (whatever), Saturday, 24 July 2010 20:38 (nine years ago) link

i seriously don't know wtf you dudes are looking for in a football thread about england's WC failure on a message board where people basically just shoot the shit all day, and on top of that, during the football close season.

LG, you've contributed maybe a ballhair more more than the same meta complaints to any football thread this whole year, which is a real pity imo. maybe that's indicative of liverpool's season, but jeez that's a poor excuse for making the same attack every time you pop your head in the door.

there's prob too much transfer gossip, prob too much bitching about the premier league's english stars, prob too much posting of dumbass formations, prob too much dissing and not enough appreciation of the subtleties of the likes of r benitez and other very highly paid and experienced/talented professionals. prob too much of myself and a hoy hoy, in short.

but damned if i wouldn't sooner read a thesis from him on why fabregas will finish his career at arsenal than another line about how nobody on this board is qualified to lazily stick the boot in on steven fucking gerrard.

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Monday, 26 July 2010 02:29 (nine years ago) link

cesc is leaving once ramsey is fit imo fyi

a hoy hoy, Monday, 26 July 2010 02:41 (nine years ago) link

would have happened this summer if barca weren't skint and ryan shawcross wasn't a cunt

a hoy hoy, Monday, 26 July 2010 02:42 (nine years ago) link

i take it all back

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Monday, 26 July 2010 02:47 (nine years ago) link

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh why am I watching this

corn piece in mouffetard (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 14:35 (nine years ago) link

?

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 14:38 (nine years ago) link

o look we scored hurrah

http://www.atdhe.net/21576/watch-spain-u19-vs-england-u19

corn piece in mouffetard (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 14:39 (nine years ago) link

that third goal sums everything up

corn piece in mouffetard (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 15:19 (nine years ago) link

Forgot this was on. Spain outclassing England in every way imaginable?

The referee was perfect (Chris), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 15:23 (nine years ago) link

more or less, although I gather our U17s are far, far superior to this shower

corn piece in mouffetard (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 15:28 (nine years ago) link

yeah suuuuuure they are

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 15:29 (nine years ago) link

England's tactic is 'pacy, powerful forwards' - that appears to be it

corn piece in mouffetard (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 15:29 (nine years ago) link

yeah we'll they'll all be in prison or jaded with footballing life by the time they're 23 so best have a backup

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 27 July 2010 15:30 (nine years ago) link

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51IN1AUOgvL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA300_SH20_OU02_.jpg

Book review:

The Anatomy of England
Jonathan Wilson

This is an attempt to trace the development of the England team through ten key matches in their history. It's absolutely marvellous.

The games are chosen to mark out the peaks and troughs over the decades. Some are obvious: Hungary 1953, Holland 1996, Croatia 2007. Others less so: Spain 1929, Italy 1938, France 1982. They're all given proper treatment and placed in the proper context of the periods and tournaments they occurred in.

The detail is just brilliant. He's taken great care to use proper sources instead of received wisdom, so it's continually surprising - just as much with the modern games as with the older ones. I had no idea that Hungary's lead-up to the Wembley game wasn't effortless genius, for example, but in fact some rather laboured games against teams who had worked them out tactically. And I'd clean forgotten the surge of violence the night England went out of Euro 96, and how out-of-character it was in the that tournament's context.

The best, though, is the detail he goes into on the games themselves. Individual moves get described over and over, which sounds like it might be dull but made it really easy to picture what was actually going on. Tactics and formations are pretty complex things, and it's lovely to have them addressed properly and explained on their own terms. He also draws parallels between the matches, but without being trite or tenuous - things like how England's kick-offs against West Germany in 1972 and 1990 and against Norway in 1993 were very similar, and trying to explain how somehow the middle one worked while the other two were fiascos.

It felt like there was loads of everything crammed into the book, and there is, but it's so well done that it isn't too dense or difficult to read. Highly, highly recommended.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:06 (nine years ago) link

haven't read ITP yet but really must

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:10 (nine years ago) link

Slightly unexpected is that Wilson cites Why England Lose by Simon Kuper with approval on a few occasions. I was a bit dismissive of it in my previous review.

Having written that, I have unexpectedly found myself with a spare copy (of Why England Lose). If anyone wants it, send me a webmail and I'll see what I can do.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:12 (nine years ago) link

pretty sure we've covered why england lose on ilx premier league threads 2002 onwards

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:14 (nine years ago) link

"Why England Lose"

cover picture- stevie gerrard, rest of it is actually a blank

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:15 (nine years ago) link

hope u don't troll the real gardaí like tht

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:21 (nine years ago) link

*that*

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:21 (nine years ago) link

Gardaí- GAA men first and foremost

"It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 11:23 (nine years ago) link

"Why England Lose"

cover picture- stevie gerrard, rest of it is actually a blank

― "It's far from 'lol' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 12:15 (54 minutes ago)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51rKf10GO9L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

That's not Gerrard is it?

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 12:11 (nine years ago) link

It's his squad number.

we won't make a darraghmac out of a crisis (onimo), Wednesday, 28 July 2010 12:15 (nine years ago) link

England boss Fabio Capello has called up the uncapped trio of Jack Wilshere, Kieran Gibbs and Bobby Zamora for the friendly against Hungary on Wednesday.

Goalkeepers David James and Robert Green are replaced by Ben Foster and Paul Robinson.

Theo Walcott and Adam Johnson are both recalled having been included in the provisional 30-man squad before failing to make the cut for the World Cup.

Bolton's Gary Cahill and West Ham's Carlton Cole are also in the squad.

a hoy hoy, Saturday, 7 August 2010 19:13 (nine years ago) link

now more players in the england team than liverpool and utd - what a hater of english footballers wenger is.

a hoy hoy, Saturday, 7 August 2010 19:15 (nine years ago) link

rabble-rousing alternative perspective: Arsene hates English footballers so much he won't even play the ones who are good enough for international football.

Merdeyeux, Saturday, 7 August 2010 19:36 (nine years ago) link

How much are tickets for the Hungary game? I tried looking on The FA website but you need to register and get an ID number.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Saturday, 7 August 2010 19:47 (nine years ago) link

Gah, always the case. I look, can't find the answer, ask, look again, and find it dead easy. They're £40, £30, £25, £20.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Saturday, 7 August 2010 19:49 (nine years ago) link

David James didn't exactly cover himself in glory today.

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Saturday, 7 August 2010 19:55 (nine years ago) link

Ha, Paul Robinson's retired from international football.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Sunday, 8 August 2010 10:51 (nine years ago) link

Thanks for the memories Paul, we'll miss you big guy ;_;

sorprendentemente noioso (onimo), Sunday, 8 August 2010 10:53 (nine years ago) link

I feel a bit sorry for him. I picked him for my fantasy team yesterday and was just thinking that goalies get shabbily treated in treated. They hardly ever get to make a comeback, when they're out it's off to the wilderness never to be seen again. Robinson's more or less teh same player he was when he was longstanding no.1. Obviously he's not great, but he's still no worse than anyone other than Hart and James.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 8 August 2010 10:56 (nine years ago) link

Can't wait for Big Sam's verdict on this affair.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 8 August 2010 10:58 (nine years ago) link

Obviously he's not great, but he's still no worse than anyone other than Hart and James.

― Ismael Klata, Sunday, 8 August 2010 10:56 (3 hours ago) Bookmark

sorry, what?

when did any of the other contenders cost their team points over a prolonged period like robinson did in the jol era (RIP big man)?

anyway, quite what lennon has done to deserve dropping is a mystery to me. fabio trying to get kudos for changing everything while switching round only peripheral figures imo.

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Sunday, 8 August 2010 14:14 (nine years ago) link

abio trying to get kudos for changing everything while switching round only peripheral figures imo.

otm but i guess many things come into play - lennon was rubbish at the wc, watching him in training, 'the capello index', if he's been joining petey in any taxi rides etc. etc.

a hoy hoy, Sunday, 8 August 2010 15:23 (nine years ago) link

Another one bites the bullet rather than soldier on http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8896134.stm

State Attorney Foxhart Cubycheck (Billy Dods), Sunday, 8 August 2010 19:52 (nine years ago) link

haha, who's next then...

The referee was perfect (Chris), Sunday, 8 August 2010 20:00 (nine years ago) link

Goodness. I was hoping Capello was going to clear the decks and pick the unshowy guys who don't mind doing it for the team. If even they don't fancy it, he'll be on his way ere long.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 8 August 2010 20:11 (nine years ago) link

Not really. Wes Brown ws probably going to be made redundant.

But Robinson? A lot of crap about concentrating on his club career (as if there was less focus before) and family (er what dude you play footie for a living?! What's a few more games adding to that commitment). But the goalkeeping position is really open: James is effectively off, so is Rob Green - only 'marginal' on paper. Wouldn't have lost much by sticking with it for a bit.

The retirements are all spineless. People who think they deserve more. Again, goes w/out saying that Capello's record at club level still carries weight - just great how there is no hiding place for the current bunch.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 8 August 2010 20:44 (nine years ago) link

Can't wait for Big Sam's verdict on this affair.
Said he'd imagine Robinson would change his mind if Capello could guarantee that he'd be 1st choice.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Sunday, 8 August 2010 22:05 (nine years ago) link

yeah, england need more 'guaranteed first choice' players alright.

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Sunday, 8 August 2010 23:15 (nine years ago) link

I'd only describe the decision to retire as 'spineless' if it was out of fear or lack of fight, tbh.

IMO, an england career doesn't actually matter enough to most players in that pool to qualify.

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Sunday, 8 August 2010 23:16 (nine years ago) link

But the goalkeeping position is really open:

umm... only if hart gets an injury in the next 15 years aaaand then foster isn't available as back-up?

a hoy hoy, Monday, 9 August 2010 05:43 (nine years ago) link

Can't see Hart getting one injury in his career tbh

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Monday, 9 August 2010 08:55 (nine years ago) link

even better if you read it as a taunt tbh

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Monday, 9 August 2010 14:28 (nine years ago) link

ahahahahahaha

visit europe more (acoleuthic), Monday, 9 August 2010 14:29 (nine years ago) link

It was out of lack of fear.

only if hart gets an injury in the next 15 years aaaand then foster isn't available as back-up?

Hart was 3rd choice when arguably he should have been 1st for the wc, bit like I said he could've had stuck around.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 9 August 2010 19:28 (nine years ago) link

I really hope this brave effort from some world class genii intent on unseating Capello succeeds. It's about time there was some player power re: England.

20 Tiny Pingas, 20 Tiny Cantoes (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 00:13 (nine years ago) link

i thought that hiring an unquestionable like capello would break it, but tbh he's made himself fairly questionable and weakened his position.

but a new strategy is needed- i reckon gerrard/terry/ferdinand should be the new player managers.

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 10:58 (nine years ago) link

said it before and I'll say it again: MARADONA. Wasn't afraid to drop big name, backbone of the team players like Cambiasso and Zanetti, exactly what England need.

Merdeyeux, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:20 (nine years ago) link

MARADONA for VILLA you know it makes SENSE

a hoy hoy, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:22 (nine years ago) link

england needs gazza.

he's the only person who recognises the england players the way they truly are.

good people. who have done very bad things.

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

england with gazza mnanager- joey barton gets a call up

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:43 (nine years ago) link

'yo joey, it's gazza'

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:52 (nine years ago) link

"I've got a dressing gown and a box of chicken"

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 11:53 (nine years ago) link

o_O

visit europe more (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:37 (nine years ago) link

Not familiar with the Gazza/Moaty connection, LJ?

tom d: he did what he had to do now he is dead (Tom D.), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:39 (nine years ago) link

nono I am o_Oing at yet another player pull-out and a dude called Frank Fielding being in the squad

visit europe more (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:40 (nine years ago) link

Foster is just straight "ooh I'm injured" 3 days before a League fixture shenanigans I think. Wes Brown retiring from international football is about on a level with me retiring from international football.

20 Tiny Pingas, 20 Tiny Cantoes (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:43 (nine years ago) link

whatever happened to lee camp

visit europe more (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:46 (nine years ago) link

Summer season supporting Bernie Clifton at Skegness Futurist Theatre iirc

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:47 (nine years ago) link

I tell you when I know Scotland was in trouble: on 1st June 1997, I sat down to watch highlights of a friendly between Scotland and Malta, and soon realised there was a player wearing a Scotland shirt who I had never heard of before - that man was David Hopkin

― I am utterly and abjectly pissed off with this little lot (Tom D.), Tuesday, June 29, 2010 11:53 AM (1 month ago)

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:47 (nine years ago) link

I've sat down to watch a Charlton match and not heard of our striker once - that man was David Mooney - and yeah, trouble loomed

visit europe more (acoleuthic), Tuesday, 10 August 2010 16:52 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, I have no idea who either of England's reserve keepers are now. can't remember the last time I hadn't actually *heard* of a Scotland player, but I don't think I could pick, say, Scott Robertson out of a lineup.

ailsa, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 17:00 (nine years ago) link

when yer reduced to calling up some guy you just made up you know that the darkness has truly fallen and you may as well get it over with and try to Anglify Almunia.

Merdeyeux, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 17:02 (nine years ago) link

I was just checking that Scott Carson and Chris Kirkland are still alive, and it turns out that they are, though they aren't feeling too good right now.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 10 August 2010 17:18 (nine years ago) link

Anyone watch it?

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 11 August 2010 21:10 (nine years ago) link

talk was in the euro thread dude

a hoy hoy, Wednesday, 11 August 2010 21:11 (nine years ago) link

doh, sorry.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 11 August 2010 21:12 (nine years ago) link

wasn't much of it.

feelin for dawson tbh, tho it's probably truer to say he overperformed last season than to claim he's international quality.

ashley young looked lively but didn't really beat his man, disappointing enough for all teh good reviews this mornin.

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Thursday, 12 August 2010 12:13 (nine years ago) link

Capello half out - next boss to be an Englishman

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 15 August 2010 12:33 (nine years ago) link

Have any of these fuckers ever put together a coherent argument as to what the advantage is of having an English manager, or do their eyes just mist over and they start singing "Theme from Carling Black Label" and flexing their bulldog tattoos?

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 15 August 2010 12:59 (nine years ago) link

I kind of see the logic behind wanting the national team to be a reflection of the best players, manager and coaches that England has to offer, but that doesn't seem to be the reasoning behind this statement.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Sunday, 15 August 2010 13:08 (nine years ago) link

The FA always just bows to any kind of pressure, whatever it happens to be at the time in question. I doubt there's any kind of strategic thought going on, but if there is it'll be something like "hopefully this'll keep the redknapps off our backs for a while"

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 15 August 2010 13:40 (nine years ago) link

For some dudes running a business worth billions or something, they sure do spend a lot of time listening to what the gutter press tells them to do.

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 15 August 2010 16:55 (nine years ago) link

'To be honest, I watched in the first game and we got a free-kick just inside our half. John Terry knocked it long for Emile Heskey into the box and I was thinking: "You wouldn't have done that for Chelsea. You'd have passed that straight to Ashley Cole and just started playing again". Is it the fear? I don't know. I can't explain it, but that wouldn't have happened at Chelsea.

'As players, you obviously speak about this. I was sat on the bench with Michael Carrick watching the Germany game. And don't get me wrong, Germany were one of the best teams at the World Cup, but I was saying: "If Man United played them at Old Trafford you'd beat them 2-0". If Liverpool played Germany at Anfield, I think we'd beat them. Chelsea would beat them. If they were a Premier League team, they wouldn't win it.

Tactically, though, he concedes, England are lacking. 'I think it's the brain. I think they're cleverer than us'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1303119/JAMIE-CARRAGHER-EXCLUSIVE-On-England-Capello-Liverpools-foreign-owners.html

r|t|c, Monday, 16 August 2010 21:23 (nine years ago) link

Carra using the royal "us" there

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Monday, 16 August 2010 21:24 (nine years ago) link

Yet, what of the severity of the remote training camp in Rustenburg, where the players were restricted to the confines of a luxury hotel with only the occasional golf day and safari to amuse them?

'To be honest I don't get that,' adds Carragher. 'I mean, what do you expect from a World Cup? Are you expecting the fair every afternoon?'

Kudos on that tho.

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Monday, 16 August 2010 21:26 (nine years ago) link

Wow, that's really good!

Ismael Klata, Monday, 16 August 2010 21:31 (nine years ago) link

some other player - ozil or a dutch fella or someone - also came out with a similar "HOW CAN U BE BORED AT THE FUCKING WORLD CUP" quote at the time iirc

r|t|c, Monday, 16 August 2010 21:31 (nine years ago) link

That one line has pretty much given him a free pass from me until the next time he gets away with suplexing some guy on the edge of the box.

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Monday, 16 August 2010 21:32 (nine years ago) link

It's the image of Rooney moaning cos he hasn't got a balloon that makes it I think.

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Monday, 16 August 2010 21:32 (nine years ago) link

joe cole crying because he's dropped his twist behind the waltzer

"It's far from 'loi' you were reared, boy" (darraghmac), Monday, 16 August 2010 21:53 (nine years ago) link

John Barnes qualifed to play for England because he'd lived here for a certain amount of years right. So no different to Arteta really? Was there a shitstorm when Barnes was selected?

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 15:41 (nine years ago) link

there were the england fans claiming england won 1-0 when they defeated brazil 2-0 and he scored...

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 15:42 (nine years ago) link

tho that's cos they were racists whereas hating other europeans is perfectly alright

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 15:44 (nine years ago) link

I'm not interested in rescinding the policy unless it's to allow Almunia to continue a fine tradition. Actually no, the qualifying period's only about five years, I'd *love* it if Capello were to troll the entire media and find an entire XI of these guys

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:15 (nine years ago) link

Scotland gets first dibs on Arteta, right? Right?

ailsa, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:16 (nine years ago) link

always wondered about this (like if i become recognised suddenly as the genius football player that i am, will i get to choose whether to play for hong kong, england, scotland, northern ireland or wales? despite never have stepped foot in northern ireland???)

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:20 (nine years ago) link

Yeah, you would. UK passport with no ties to any of the constituent parts means you can play for any of them.

ailsa, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:24 (nine years ago) link

Raises an interesting question about identity and all that. Unless I'm looking too deeply into this. Fair to say (if you regard the national team as a reflection of national identity/culture etc) that there's as many England fans that "identify" with Mikel Arteta as there are that "identify" with John Terry or Steven Gerrard? i.e. Arteta appears to be a sound guy who keeps out of trouble and is Spanish and therefore amazing at football and we're a tolerant, multi-cultural society etc etc.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:25 (nine years ago) link

i thought this was gonna about the back page of today's sun.

wouldn't agree with arteta 4 england personally.

r|t|c, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 16:57 (nine years ago) link

*googles* - that is majestic, well done the Sun

http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01112/capello-splash_1112586a.jpg

ailsa, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:00 (nine years ago) link

'arry was never interested in the job, he just wanted to adopt fab for the sanctuary

r|t|c, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:04 (nine years ago) link

seriously tho i dont even get that the sun is saying - that even a donkey is smart enough not to pick an injured player?

r|t|c, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:05 (nine years ago) link

"axes Carroll"? from what?

        Almunia
_______ ________ ______ _______
Denilson Arteta
_______ _______ _______
_______

feel free to fill in blanks.

a hoy hoy, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:10 (nine years ago) link

Also, is it possible to axe a player who you haven't called up?

xpost

ailsa, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:10 (nine years ago) link

you can have Nacho Novo in that squad if you like, we don't want him.

ailsa, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 17:11 (nine years ago) link

since when was capello a david lynch extra

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:05 (nine years ago) link

it's hard, but we're getting towards a team I could get behind:

              almunia

hargreaves distin jagielka konchesky

malbranque denilson arteta n'zogbia

______ ______

I've had to put in a couple of ringers with suspicious foreign-sounding names while we wait for Cuellar and Kaboul to qualify. France claimed N'Zogbia only last week, but that was just a friendly so I think he's in at least until Aurelio notches up the five years. Strikers are a problem, but maybe Zamora and Defoe would do?

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:50 (nine years ago) link

Do properly English players ever decide at age 30 or whatever that they're never going to be called up, and apply to play for N.I.? It seems like it should happen more.

Gravel Puzzleworth, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:53 (nine years ago) link

Jamie Redknapp on punditry duty, obviously

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:54 (nine years ago) link

Strikers are a problem, but maybe Zamora and Defoe would do?

― Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:50 (3 minutes ago)

not like the best uncapped strike partnership in the land didn't score FIVE GOALS last weekend amirite

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 18:56 (nine years ago) link

dunno who you mean, but if they would annoy Wrighty they're in

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:07 (nine years ago) link

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00798/kevin_nolan_798721c.jpg

sitting at home sharpening his shiv and crying into his tripe right now

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:16 (nine years ago) link

Do properly English players ever decide at age 30 or whatever that they're never going to be called up, and apply to play for N.I.? It seems like it should happen more.

I don't think they can, can they? As far as I know, if you actually *are* British then you have to play for the country/ies that you qualify for (i.e. where you were born or where your parents are from or something similar). So I couldn't play for Wales because I have no connection with the place. I think it's just that if someone who isn't British lives and plays here long enough to be able to represent one of the countries then they could choose any of the four countries.

Jerome Personnel Cheeses (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:44 (nine years ago) link

Also Channel Islanders.

if, Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:51 (nine years ago) link

xp. yeah i think that's correct. with the proviso that the FAs of the four countries have an agreement that players who gain british citizenship would not be picked for any of the national teams. players only being picked if they are eligible by bloodline.

Efraqueen Juárez (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:52 (nine years ago) link

that was the line during the recent "novo for scotland" debacle/pish/hun-press trolling.

Efraqueen Juárez (jim in glasgow), Wednesday, 25 August 2010 19:52 (nine years ago) link

Re: Arteta/John Barnes comparisons:

John Barnes may have been proud to wear the England jersey, but admits his citizenship was clearly Jamaican for at least part of his international playing career.

The former Watford, Liverpool, Newcastle and Charlton Athletic playmaker, said he could not recall exactly when he acquired a British passport, but revealed that during his early years with England's national team, starting as a teenager in 1983, he carried a Jamaican passport.

"At 19, I don't remember, I don't think I even became even a British citizen," said Barnes while in Jamaica recently to watch the Reggae Boyz beat Mexico and Honduras in World Cup qualifiers.

" ... For my first 18 months playing for England I had a Jamaican passport. I never had a British passport."

"So when we used to go to Russia, Czech Republic, I've got my England suit on, I have to go into a different queue than the England team," he recalled. "And the Russian man would look at this Jamaican passport, see me with an England thing and he would like keep me at the airport for two hours." The situation later changed, but Barnes is still not sure how.

"So as a matter of convenience, I got a British passport," he said. "I don't remember filling any forms in. I don't remember applying for a British passport. I just became (a British citizen) ... So maybe I played (for England) illegally, right? So, that's how I played for England."

"I wanna play in the World Cup," Barnes said, "but I'm 18, a little black boy from Jamaica. So I can play for England or I can play for Jamaica. But also, as it turned out, I could play for England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales. I never signed anything, but I could play for any of the British teams ...

"So as stupid as it seems, the only reason I played for England was because they were the first to ask. They were the biggest and the best country, but if Scotland had asked me first I wouldn't have thought I would be good enough to play for England. You go and play for Scotland."

It dreamed to Tom D. of the Caucasus (Tom D.), Thursday, 26 August 2010 09:26 (nine years ago) link

There's a whole separate thing for citizens of Commonwealth countries though, isn't there? (is that how Owen Hargreaves gets in?)

ailsa, Thursday, 26 August 2010 09:36 (nine years ago) link

That used to be the case, but i don't know about that anymore. Hargreaves has English / Welsh parentage I think?

It dreamed to Tom D. of the Caucasus (Tom D.), Thursday, 26 August 2010 09:38 (nine years ago) link

Wasn't sure about Hargreaves, tbh, but I'm guessing that's how Barnes managed it? Or else he's just making stuff up/not knowing what he's talking about.

ailsa, Thursday, 26 August 2010 09:41 (nine years ago) link

Interview with a Jamaican journalist, so maybe he was playing up his roots, man

It dreamed to Tom D. of the Caucasus (Tom D.), Thursday, 26 August 2010 09:47 (nine years ago) link

Barnes basically just started playing for England and no-one questioned it. He was ineligible under any of the criteria - residency stuff (Arteta, Novo, etc) was introduced much later.

(citations needed, I know, but I've seen Barnes saying as much in interviews)

a harshbuzz to my manpain (onimo), Thursday, 26 August 2010 11:14 (nine years ago) link

"But also, as it turned out, I could play for England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales."

^this is only after he got citizenship, by which time he was already and England internationalist.

a harshbuzz to my manpain (onimo), Thursday, 26 August 2010 11:15 (nine years ago) link

I think I'm havering about Commonwealth countries, btw, I seem to be conflating this with work permit rules to play in the UK, which I've been reading up on recently.

ailsa, Thursday, 26 August 2010 11:16 (nine years ago) link

He never really sounded very Jamaican - posh boy, son of an army colonel - so that prob'ly made it easier for him to be accepted as English. Arteta sounds pretty Spanish to me.

It dreamed to Tom D. of the Caucasus (Tom D.), Thursday, 26 August 2010 11:21 (nine years ago) link

Unbeaten in 11 matches as Jamaica manager with 7 wins and 4 draws and picked up the Caribbean Cup yet still had a lower win %age than at Celtic where he was universally acknowledged as being shit.

a harshbuzz to my manpain (onimo), Thursday, 26 August 2010 11:24 (nine years ago) link

Commonwealth and Irelanders aren't foreigners as such (get to vote in our elections for example) so i expect it's easier for them to get citizenship-type things done too.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 26 August 2010 11:48 (nine years ago) link

Kevin Davies for Jamaica!

The referee was perfect (Chris), Thursday, 26 August 2010 12:55 (nine years ago) link

(his half brother's Jamaican)

The referee was perfect (Chris), Thursday, 26 August 2010 12:55 (nine years ago) link

it gets funnier

Joe Hart is England’s goalkeeper on merit but the 23-year-old is not exactly under pressure.

He was the last man standing from the original three selected for the recent friendly against Hungary — after Paul Robinson suddenly chose to retire and Ben Foster withdrew with injury.

And yesterday, the England training session at Arsenal’s London Colney ground descended deeper into farce before their match against Bulgaria on Friday.

Faced with injuries to Foster (knee) and Scott Carson (back), Fabio Capello had to turn to Arsene Wenger in desperation and ask to borrow a goalkeeper for a practice match.

So up stepped 19-year-old James Shea, joining Hart for a few training drills before being chipped — so Theo Walcott said — by Wayne Rooney from 18 yards.

‘It was a good experience for him,’ added Walcott.

Born in Islington but eligible to represent the Republic of Ireland, Shea began as a midfielder before being converted into a keeper.

He was on the bench against West Brom in the Carling Cup last September. England, however, has come sooner than expected.

a hoy hoy, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 20:00 (nine years ago) link

Blackpool's Matthew Gilks should have waited a couple of days before declaring himself to be Scottish.

onimo, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 21:22 (nine years ago) link

i warmed to hart when i read that his real name is charles. also he looks like a bizarre perfect cross between spike and angel from buffy.

capello really does deserve all the donkey ears going for the goalie sitch though, it's ridiculous - stop acting like there's some big england cantera fam idea and just call up steve harper/lee camp/andy lonergan or whatever.

r|t|c, Tuesday, 31 August 2010 23:52 (nine years ago) link

Oli Kay tweeting about some breaking news regarding Arteta/England, but you need a Times Online subscription to read it. Any idea what it is?

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 15:50 (nine years ago) link

guessing he's applied for citizenship?

k¸ (darraghmac), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 15:52 (nine years ago) link

I guess so. He said it's "worth scaling that paywall for".

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 15:56 (nine years ago) link

heh is that a woy pronounciation of payroll?

k¸ (darraghmac), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 16:00 (nine years ago) link

you need a times subscription to read their tweets? wow if ever there was a reason it wasn't worth it.

a hoy hoy, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 17:31 (nine years ago) link

sorry, worded that badly. he posted a link to the story on the times website, which you need to pay for to read. tweets are free.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Wednesday, 1 September 2010 17:55 (nine years ago) link

The story is that he's ineligible all along because he represented Spain at junior level, and didn't hold a uk passport at the time.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 18:19 (nine years ago) link

is the FA's view anyway, so liable to be overturned pronto in the unlikely event of politicians/tabloids/redknapps sticking up for carpetbagging foreign scum

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 18:30 (nine years ago) link

someone shd have a tête-à-tiny tet' w/ him

nakhchivan, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 18:45 (nine years ago) link

lol 'represented them at junior level' hasn't stopped this working for plenty other players?

a hoy hoy, Wednesday, 1 September 2010 21:43 (nine years ago) link

I think the only thing preventing this is the gentleman's agreement between the home nations not to exploit the residency rule for non-UK nationals. Under the current FIFA/UEFA rules Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are all entitled to select Arteta but have agreed not to. I can't quite work out the reason for this but I think we should stop being gentlemen and give Arteta a CU Jimmy bunnet asap.

This comes frequently in Scotland because we're mostly shit and players like Nacho Novo and Lorenzo Amoruso would make Scotland a better team - meaning it gets press up here quite often. I think this is the first time a foreigner without granny credentials has been good enough for England selection since this ruling came in (apart from with John Barnes when they just broke the rules, that is).

pissky in the jar (onimo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 10:51 (nine years ago) link

Well I for one couldn't stomach the thought of anyone but the purest Hibernian representing my country tbh. The notion is quite distasteful to me.

k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 September 2010 10:57 (nine years ago) link

Deek's played for Scotland already so no chance there.

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:01 (nine years ago) link

Did they not try to get lolmunia at one stage? I agree we should get first dibs on Arteta because he started up here first. I would have thought trying to nab a keeper would be a priority now, no?

(I'm now off to cry at the truthbomb that Nacho Novo would make Scotland better. It's true, but I really don't want it to be)

xposts lol @ aldo

ailsa, Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:06 (nine years ago) link

tbh Mark Yardley would probably make Scotland better, ever now.

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:34 (nine years ago) link

ever=even

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:34 (nine years ago) link

You mean you're not ecstatic at the return of the prodigal Fat Gaz to the Scotland squad then?

ailsa, Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:42 (nine years ago) link

Been away, missed that. Is his return through choice or fat(e)?

Hey Jabulani! Pope of four four two. (aldo), Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:47 (nine years ago) link

Maybe leave it up to Arteta to decide which one he wants to play for?

I don't get this agreement at all, who's supposed to benefit from it? It seems like another excuse for failing against barbarians to be clinging to it now, like refusing to take penalties, or not going to the world cup because you finished runners-up in qualifying, or not sending a team to your own olympics

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 2 September 2010 11:55 (nine years ago) link

Is it to stop cradlesnatching within the home countries?

k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 September 2010 12:05 (nine years ago) link

Probably - but then Nigel Quashie et al have been playing for Scotland in recent years. Maybe it's to protect England from Scholes and Owen making the same choice. That doesn't really applies to Arteta anyway, though.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 2 September 2010 12:22 (nine years ago) link

lets us nick anyone we want which is all good.

k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 September 2010 12:24 (nine years ago) link

just don't have 4 teams for one country.

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Thursday, 2 September 2010 12:50 (nine years ago) link

war of conquest over shay given

k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:06 (nine years ago) link

WTF

k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:12 (nine years ago) link

Nigel Quashie has a Scottish granddad though - to play for Scotland, you have to have no more than a second generation link to Scotland. It's not like at present we're hoovering up all random Englishers who can't get a game, just the ones with Scottish grannies (you do all know that Craig Levein contacted every agent in the UK and asked them to check the lineage of all their clients just in case they had a Scottish granny and fancied a game, hence Matt Gilks?).

Not sure what, if any, precedent a nationalised British citizen with no parental or grandparental links to any of the home nations would have on this current set-up.

xpost, haha, not surprised Andy Roxburgh was involved in that. Learning a lot without it actually being any use was kind of his thing.

ailsa, Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:13 (nine years ago) link

England's outstanding player not exactly high praise

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:15 (nine years ago) link

I knew that Quashie qualified (plus loads of others since I think), I just assumed the 'no Arteta' rule had some wider aspect to it. If the only thinking behind it is to stop guys like Arteta, well what's the point of that?

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:18 (nine years ago) link

England's outstanding player not exactly high praise

Inclusion for Rooney in the top 3 is far too high, however.

k¸ (darraghmac), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:21 (nine years ago) link

would have picked lennon upson and terry

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:22 (nine years ago) link

forgot rob green!

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:23 (nine years ago) link

Presume is just in case every Britisher player ever fails to get caps because of all these pesky foreigners coming in and stealing their jobs? I notice that rugby and cricket don't care quite so much.

xposts

ailsa, Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:31 (nine years ago) link

it's to avoid our country becoming a laughing stock innit

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:40 (nine years ago) link

it's to avoid our country becoming 4 separate laughing stocks innit

HOOS' THE BOSS (ken c), Thursday, 2 September 2010 13:40 (nine years ago) link

That will have the rest of the world quaking in their boots with mirth

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 10 September 2010 11:12 (nine years ago) link

Big Sam's first press conference as England boss in two years' time: "it's time to get back to old-fashioned English virtues, no disrespect to Mr Capello but he's not English and he doesn't understand blah blah..."

Daniel Giraffe, Friday, 10 September 2010 12:07 (nine years ago) link

he doesn't understand strong defending, he's italian!

a hoy hoy, Friday, 10 September 2010 12:12 (nine years ago) link

fuck all that continental franco baresi 'defending', we need to get back to basics gary cahill defending.

a hoy hoy, Friday, 10 September 2010 12:12 (nine years ago) link

really surprised at the lack of fuss over the best coach ye could have leaving.

tho he did have a shit WC i suppose.

k¸ (darraghmac), Friday, 10 September 2010 12:28 (nine years ago) link

he did shit to be fair. i honestly think harry is the man for the job. the players prob are pig ignorant enough that they favour an english boss...

I see what this is (Local Garda), Friday, 10 September 2010 12:36 (nine years ago) link

the players prob are pig ignorant enough that they favour an english boss...

Not many of them play under one... apart from 'Arry

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 10 September 2010 12:50 (nine years ago) link

I can see an argument for saying that if the players must have English nationality then the coach shd. I don't think I agree but it's iffy.

I'll be happy enough with an English coach cos it'll be one less bullshit excuse for continued failure and whoever gets the job will probably be due for a kick in the hubris.

Shit Cat and Party (Noodle Vague), Friday, 10 September 2010 12:55 (nine years ago) link

yeah i did think of that when i was writing it tom, but like, i dunno, for the weird way that job works i can see how maybe an english coach, no language barrier, etc, might be a better idea, motivation seems like the biggest part of it when you see the players so rarely.

anyone think trapp would have done a better job than capello? gotta say his motivational/organisational talent shines through hugely, if his tactics are v dull.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Friday, 10 September 2010 12:58 (nine years ago) link

Capello is too good to have to put up with these cunts.

a hoy hoy, Friday, 10 September 2010 13:04 (nine years ago) link

quite

nakhchivan, Friday, 10 September 2010 13:09 (nine years ago) link

cunts = the f.a., players, jingoist media, english managers, fans etc etc

nakhchivan, Friday, 10 September 2010 13:10 (nine years ago) link

yeah capello's international record is second to none to be fair, unlike the players.

I see what this is (Local Garda), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:11 (nine years ago) link

oh wait

I see what this is (Local Garda), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:12 (nine years ago) link

good to get a disastrous English manager out of the way before some Polack comes over here, takes our jobs, and wins the 2018 World Cup in England.

either that or, come the end of 2014: arise, Sir Paul Gascoigne.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:12 (nine years ago) link

They're going to raise him from the dead?

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:14 (nine years ago) link

... sorry

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:14 (nine years ago) link

tough but fair.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:16 (nine years ago) link

xp deeply unpleasant person imo

k¸ (darraghmac), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:33 (nine years ago) link

how about ray wilkins? he's worked with scolari, hiddink and ancelotti... just a thought.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:42 (nine years ago) link

Psycho for the job

Tom A. (Tom B.) (Tom C.) (Tom D.), Friday, 10 September 2010 13:42 (nine years ago) link

^^^ Consider the source

Shit Cat and Party (Noodle Vague), Friday, 10 September 2010 18:16 (nine years ago) link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8991881.stm

Glenn Hoddle on some Harry Potter 'pure blood' shit right there.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Sunday, 12 September 2010 11:06 (nine years ago) link

I've been thinking - if we did a poll on Arteta-situtation players, what would the options be?

1) I think players should only be allowed to play for their 'primary nationality', and only have a choice if that's genuinely ambiguous (as for, say, Michael Owen/ Marcel Desailly) - "footballing considerations" shouldn't come into it.
2) Players with a strong, but secondary nationality from a parent are fine (e.g. Owen Hargreaves), but players with no family connection aren't.
3) Cacau/Arteta/Almunia etc are fine with me - if a nation gives them citizenship, then they should be allowed to play for it.

Gravel Puzzleworth, Sunday, 12 September 2010 11:23 (nine years ago) link

I tend to lean towards 2 I think. But as far as managers are concerned I like the medieval Italian city-state idea where you bring in a foreigner cos they're above the internecine squabbling.

Shit Cat and Party (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 12 September 2010 11:34 (nine years ago) link

(Possibly a truly cosmopolitan option 4 needed too - uncapped players should be able to play for any country they wish to, regardless of citizenship - no problems with John Barnes/Tony Cascarino etc)

Gravel Puzzleworth, Sunday, 12 September 2010 11:39 (nine years ago) link

The 'rejects' team that should be allowed in every world cup would solve these problems

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 September 2010 11:52 (nine years ago) link

Or England, to give them their full title.

Shit Cat and Party (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 12 September 2010 11:58 (nine years ago) link

BOOM

progressive cuts (Tracer Hand), Sunday, 12 September 2010 12:05 (nine years ago) link

3) Cacau/Arteta/Almunia etc are fine with me - if a nation gives them citizenship, then they should be allowed to play for it.

The only problem I see with this is it isn't fair. Deco can go to Portugal before the age of 18, get a Portuguese passport in 2 years and be eligible. We cannot get a player from outside the EU to play here until he has played 50% of his national teams games in the past two years or got a special talent visa (i.e. the utd twins, lucas and denilson for their success for the brazilian national u19 or u17 teams) AND then wait five years for them to be eligible for citizenship...

if we could get every uncapped foreigner in the premiership to potentially play for england after two years, we'd only have about 5 englishers left in the team :)

a hoy hoy, Sunday, 12 September 2010 20:56 (nine years ago) link

you'd risk a big talent drain away from some nations too i expect

Eejit Piaf (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 12 September 2010 20:57 (nine years ago) link

two is the option here i think

k¸ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 September 2010 23:45 (nine years ago) link

Mainz star Holtby chooses Germany over England
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=827179&sec=euro2012&cc=5901

mizzell, Sunday, 26 September 2010 13:00 (nine years ago) link

Since the 2005-6 season Bent has scored 78 Premier League goals. Frank Lampard has 67 in the same period, Jermain Defoe 59, Steven Gerrard 56, Peter Crouch 41, and Carlton Cole and Emile Heskey between them – as a kind of raging twin-headed in-the-mixer monster – have 51. Only Wayne Rooney is ahead of Bent, with 82

mizzell, Monday, 27 September 2010 14:21 (nine years ago) link

cant play with rooney blah blah blah

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Monday, 27 September 2010 14:28 (nine years ago) link

Tonight on BBC2 at 9:30, crisp fans.

England has the strongest, most watched, most successful league in football. Yet none of the superstars who grace the Premier League were even born the last time the English national team won a major trophy. Can England win the next World Cup? England goal-scoring legend and Match of the Day presenter Gary Lineker goes in search of answers to this 44-year-old question, gathering the views of some of football's biggest names, including Jose Mourinho, Jurgen Klinsmann, Carlo Ancelotti, Harry Redknapp and Johan Cruyff.

Also contributing their views are the FA's Director of Football Development Sir Trevor Brooking, former England coach Terry Venables and Premier League Chief Executive Richard Scudamore.

And Lineker looks at how the Spanish have transformed the fortunes of their national team, how the Germans have reinvented themselves and asks if English football needs to change now, and if we really can have the best league and best team in the world at the same time.

Can England Win the Next World Cup?

James Mitchell, Sunday, 3 October 2010 07:23 (nine years ago) link

That's a decent set of guests. I could answer their question myself though.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 3 October 2010 07:35 (nine years ago) link

England has the strongest, most watched, most successful league in football.

V. debatable, okay, what does that mean?

Already WSed last summer (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:15 (nine years ago) link

Would like to see a joint Geoff Hurst and John Terry interview. Or maybe Gary could ask himself why he didn't win the World Cup in 1990, 1986, etc.

James Mitchell, Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:22 (nine years ago) link

Also amused by this chart from Wikipedia of who's the biggest underperforming country in the European championship tournaments:

http://imgur.com/juzhH.png

James Mitchell, Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:24 (nine years ago) link

On a par with mighty footballing greats Sweden and Turkey.

James Mitchell, Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:25 (nine years ago) link

I think England & Sweden have pretty much identical world cup records too, except England didn't have to play Brazil in their final

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:31 (nine years ago) link

Bit iffy treating only Serbia as Yugoslavia?

Already WSed last summer (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:32 (nine years ago) link

harsh on Ukraine too. Slovakia gets full credit though

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:34 (nine years ago) link

England's European Championship record is a far bigger indictment of the national team than the World Cup shenanigans.

Already WSed last summer (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:36 (nine years ago) link

My bad - Sweden have reached the semis four times, England twice

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 3 October 2010 08:51 (nine years ago) link

Kazakhstan reaching the group stage would f*ck up those maps nicely.

btw, i heard that Kazakhstan plays their matches on artificial turf, so i guess that makes it about time for Greenland to enter the competition.

http://www.boerenkoolenradijs.nl/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/sepp_blatter.jpe

Ludo, Sunday, 3 October 2010 09:31 (nine years ago) link

In the concacaf tournament surely? Would be a genuinely awesome away trip either way.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 3 October 2010 09:59 (nine years ago) link

don't think they've decided yet. CONCACAF is obviously a much smarter idea, snatch up some vaguely Eskimo related Danish footballers and get going :) (Jesper Gronkjaer is a Greenlander)

Ludo, Sunday, 3 October 2010 10:06 (nine years ago) link

Don't know that we've touched upon this anywhere, there are a lot of implications if this lassie wins.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11452434

ailsa, Sunday, 3 October 2010 10:06 (nine years ago) link

I was quite surprised looking at this lot. Makes Sven look like a big success.

Knock-out games won in 90 minutes in WC finals by England since 1966:
1970: none
1974: DNQ
1978: DNQ
1982: none (round robin 2nd round with two 0-0 draws)
1986: 1 (3-0 win vs Paraguay)
1990: none (2 wins aet vs Belgium and Cameroon)
1994: DNQ
1998: none
2002: 1 (3-0 win vs Denmark)
2006: 1 (1-0 win vs Ecuador)
2010: none

meta the devil you know (onimo), Sunday, 3 October 2010 10:36 (nine years ago) link

Knock-out games won in 90 minutes in WC or EC finals by Spain, 1966-2006:

1986: 1 (5-1 win vs Denmark)
1994: 1 (3-0 win vs Switzerland)

if, Sunday, 3 October 2010 11:06 (nine years ago) link

Anybody watch it? I forgot.

On iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00v8sj8/Inside_Sport_Can_England_Win_the_Next_World_Cup/

James Mitchell, Monday, 4 October 2010 08:38 (nine years ago) link

I recorded it, will watch tonight. I'd like it if Mourinho, Ancelotti and Cruyff all said that all that's needed is for the players to show more passion, under an English coach.

Ismael Klata, Monday, 4 October 2010 08:46 (nine years ago) link

! that would be genuine 100% classic

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Monday, 4 October 2010 09:22 (nine years ago) link

Arsenal's Jack Wilshere has been named in both the under-21 and senior squads.

good to see they learnt from spreading theo too thin

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 13:55 (nine years ago) link

ok the start of this show is hilar

already got "dedicated" and "passionate" on my bingo card 2 minutes in. redknapp thought we had better players than anyone. the music sounds like someone's funeral on eastenders. and the footage of the panel watching the game seeing how bad they are v. germany is terrific.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 15:55 (nine years ago) link

lol at lineker admitting cryuff saw him as the problem at barca and decided to work at youth development and ship him off.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:02 (nine years ago) link

Perhaps worth noting quite how far Kevin Davies has come. He's clearly no-one's long-term solution, but the fact this article was a fairly plausible epitaph for his career in 2003... props for that, y'know?

William Bloody Swygart, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:07 (nine years ago) link

They are talking about Barca as Spain and yet complaining none of the top clubs in England play enough English players. So great, 8 players of the Spain side play for Barca - but what if they fail? Who is there is to compete with them? What about the rest of Spanish football? You can complain about high priced foreigners in the Premiership but ignore Ronaldo and Kaka and Ozil and Fabiano because Barca only buy a Zlatan or Henry or Alves 1 per season?

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:07 (nine years ago) link

Lineker talks about how great it is Real spent so much on their youth academy but neglects to mention that they had to sell off their training ground to the government and have to pay rent on it.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:11 (nine years ago) link

Mourinho saying the problem is the big 4 don't play with English strikers like the Spanish do. Like Messi, Higuain, Forlan and Aguero, Fabiano and Kanoute, Rossi and Altidore...

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:13 (nine years ago) link

Jose now saying he feels he has to buy Spanish players - such as the 1/5 he bought this summer (that 1 has only played 2 games, both as a sub, back up to new signing the Argentine Angel di Maria).

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:15 (nine years ago) link

Yeah the too many foreigners thing is a red herring. What's clear is that when Real/Barca/Inter buy foreigners they don't buy English foreigners. The English players are overrated thanks to being part of a very entertaining and rich league.

meta the devil you know (onimo), Monday, 4 October 2010 16:20 (nine years ago) link

They are painting it as being a problem EVERYWHERE. And the thing is, even after saying that it has taken the 20 since Cryuff took over at Barca for Spain to win the Euro 08, they aren't looking at the gradual changes being made over the past decade at top clubs like Arsenal, Chelsea, Utd, Villa, Everton - who are obviously working hard to change it up and now we are seeing many names around 17/18/19 who are technically gifted as opposed to workhorses - if Chelsea only developed their training academy in 2003 when Abramovich took over then the 9 year olds who joined that year will still not be old enough to really play for their u18s.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:25 (nine years ago) link

I think Klinsmann and Cryuff have come off best on this. Mourinho is Mourinho. I think Ancelotti is realistic, Scudamore just as skeezy as usual, Brooking honest - in a v. depressing way.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:34 (nine years ago) link

Klinsmann talking about it being ok to lose and take risks to make German football have a philosphy is terrific - this dude is like a football nabisco.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:37 (nine years ago) link

Has it ever occurred to anyone in the English games that if foreign players can come to England, English players can equally go and play in foreign?

Ismael Klata, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:37 (nine years ago) link

lol @ Klinsmann's gag about Germany taking their attacking philosophy too far a couple of times in the 20th century.

meta the devil you know (onimo), Monday, 4 October 2010 16:39 (nine years ago) link

huh never knew german club teams have to have 12 germans in their squad.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:40 (nine years ago) link

lol @ Klinsmann's gag about Germany taking their attacking philosophy too far a couple of times in the 20th century.

― meta the devil you know (onimo), Monday, 4 October 2010 17:39 (54 seconds ago) [IP: 86.11.143.38] Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah this was great.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:40 (nine years ago) link

lol @ Klinsmann's gag about Germany taking their attacking philosophy too far a couple of times in the 20th century.

Haha that was brilliant! Laughed out loud at that. Love the way his voice goes really high-pitched when he's about to laugh, too.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Monday, 4 October 2010 16:43 (nine years ago) link

I think something that hasn't been touched on is that Klinsmann point that he and the German FA looked at a German philosphy. He didn't say it was the recognised 'right way to play the game' (ok Cryuff, you can occasionally close your mouth). Chelsea won this weekend against the supposed Barca way through efficient, 'English' style - strength, character, smart but not indulgant. There is no reason why a team of Lampard's and Rooney's shouldn't be able to win and we shouldn't try to take this character away from the English game. It's just that we don't have enough notable players of top ability to play that way.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:56 (nine years ago) link

Has it ever occurred to anyone in the English games that if foreign players can come to England, English players can equally go and play in foreign?

Well, one of the reasons foreigners go to England is that they'll finally be getting all that r€$pect they're owed. And I think most English players would take a steep pay cut by going to play in other European leagues, with a few exceptions I'd guess (Real, Barca, Inter, AC Milan, Bayern etc). I can't back this up with numbers but that's the feeling I get. And well, seeing as in France we keep being told that the Premier League is "the best league in the world", I'm guessing players in England listen to that even more, so considering leaving said best league must be difficult.

Jibe, Monday, 4 October 2010 16:57 (nine years ago) link

i.e. it won't be long till its like the 80s again - less money and less reputation sees the 'best' skip town.

a hoy hoy, Monday, 4 October 2010 17:03 (nine years ago) link

Pennant was on £40k a week at Zaragoza, working out at £6.24m over 3 years.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/jul/10/jermaine-pennant-real-zaragoza-transfer

The referee was perfect (Chris), Monday, 4 October 2010 17:07 (nine years ago) link

Of course you're right Jibe - I'm thinking more about young players (and even more about managers) constantly bleating about not getting opportunities because they're stuck on the bench at Blackburn. Are they out hawking their arses around the lower reaches of the Bundesliga just to get a game?

Ismael Klata, Monday, 4 October 2010 18:24 (nine years ago) link

Are they fuck.

Ismael Klata, Monday, 4 October 2010 21:16 (nine years ago) link

kinda like the idea of academy kids emailing their cv to teams across europe with a note saying "giz a game".

The referee was perfect (Chris), Monday, 4 October 2010 21:43 (nine years ago) link

Just finished watching this. Jose's still kind of great, Jurgen really is great especially his gag - but the bit I liked best for some reason was Ancelotti having to make the coffees himself.

Ismael Klata, Monday, 4 October 2010 21:50 (nine years ago) link

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49362000/jpg/_49362381_englandgraphic466index.jpg

I really like this bbc graphic. If Capello issued his squads in comic form it'd make a good front page.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 5 October 2010 09:59 (nine years ago) link

It's like they're getting ready to form Voltron.

EZ Snappin, Tuesday, 5 October 2010 13:44 (nine years ago) link

I like the look of confusion on Rooney, Rio and Green's faces, like they can't believe Davies has been named, and Davies is all like "yay I made the team!"

The referee was perfect (Chris), Tuesday, 5 October 2010 13:51 (nine years ago) link

http://www.clubcall.com/international-football/fa-wont-rule-out-mcclaren---brooking-1105014.html

Thought this might merit a mention today but don't really know what to say/think except "guh"

Already WSed last summer (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 6 October 2010 13:02 (nine years ago) link

"not ruling him out" is the polite term for ruling him out

meta the devil you know (onimo), Wednesday, 6 October 2010 13:14 (nine years ago) link

nah my "guh" was more about why are some reporters trying to make this a thing?

Already WSed last summer (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 6 October 2010 13:20 (nine years ago) link

cos he's a top top manager now

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Wednesday, 6 October 2010 13:26 (nine years ago) link

Most successful English manager in the past twenty years who is still alive is naturally a candidate? Even if he wasn't ready first time around.

http://tinypic.com/r/s0wvar/7 (a hoy hoy), Wednesday, 6 October 2010 17:44 (nine years ago) link

lol

Gary Lineker has claimed that hosting the 2018 World Cup in England would help bring attacking football back to the tournament.

Lineker, an England 2018 bid ambassador, said that the previous two tournaments had suffered from some negative tactics but that the atmosphere in the English stadia would help the flow of the game.

Lineker told reporters at the Leaders in Football conference in London: "I think it would be great for the game of football to have the World Cup in England.

"I think we would have a really good tournament in this country because of the passion we evoke from the stands and that can sometimes help the flow and the attacking nature of football.

"That's important because the last couple of World Cups at times have been a little bit on the negative side.

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/international/england/news/story_get.cgi?STORY_NAME=soccer/10/10/06/SOCCER_World_Cup.html

James Mitchell, Thursday, 7 October 2010 10:33 (nine years ago) link

England did play attacking football in the last World Cup. Against Germany. They got smashed on the counter, time and time again.

Matt DC, Thursday, 7 October 2010 10:38 (nine years ago) link

and it helped the flow of the game and made for an exciting spectacle - so Lineker otm :)

san te cross (onimo), Thursday, 7 October 2010 10:45 (nine years ago) link

Makes for a very short tournament though.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 7 October 2010 11:05 (nine years ago) link

england play football with everyone charging up the field, it's not actually attacking football unless you can kepp the ball while doing so, it's essentially a garryowen

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Thursday, 7 October 2010 11:07 (nine years ago) link

It doesn't sound like Lineker is saying it will make England play more attacking football, but that it will make the whole world play more attacking football (during the tournament). So, if he was right, it wouldn't make for a short tournament, and would lead to lots of exciting games like the Germany 4 England 1(+1) match. But he isn't right, so it doesn't matter.

Darragh - it *is* attacking football, it just isn't *effective* attacking football. You can be attacking and shit.

Running the Gantelope (Nasty, Brutish & Short), Thursday, 7 October 2010 16:46 (nine years ago) link

ha no shit, jol out

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Thursday, 7 October 2010 18:40 (nine years ago) link

Turn up to watch Jerez ­Industrial in the Spanish third division and you would be forgiven for doing a double take at the team sheet.

In goal, Billy Lumley once of Wolves’ youth team. Full-back Daniel Spence, rejected by Reading. Midfielder Matthew Richards, winger Nathan Woolfe who started out at Bolton. Adriano Moke, formerly on Nottingham Forest books.

All but two of the team is English or Irish. Rejects of our system, trying to relaunch careers on an unusual stage.

In the stands overseeing the team is former England boss Glenn Hoddle. Nigel Spackman, Graham Rix and Dave Beasant take turns on the ­touchline.

Hoddle is at the centre of a pioneering experiment that gives a fresh chance to a handful of teenage casualties of our youth system, and provides the Spanish lower league with a fascinating English dimension.

The young lads, who during the week train at the Glenn Hoddle Academy, have just battled out a feisty 3-3 draw against Ayamonte, another small step in their education. Hoddle provides the players for Jerez Industrial, a small outfit in the sherry making lands of Andalucia, and picks the team. The club benefits from getting an entire playing staff for free.

Hoddle takes English lads who were kicked out of the game at 18 and gives them a second chance. The hope is they will develop with twice-daily coaching in a beautiful sunny climate, and win professional contracts around Europe.

For the first couple of years Hoddle worked on his squad, they played friendly games to showcase players to scouts. The most notable success so far has been Ikechi Anya, who landed a two-year deal at Sevilla, and is now on loan at Celta Vigo.

But this season is different. Hoddle helped rescue Jerez. They were about to fold in July, when the former Spurs and Chelsea boss offered to provide a 22-man squad from his academy free of charge, ready for league action.

And six games into the season, the Brits of Jerez Industrial are fifth in the league, with promotion the aim.

Hoddle could probably find easier ways to make a living. He has had 26 job offers in the last three years, but is committed to the project he dreamed up as a boss in the 1990s charges with the “horrible” task of telling teenagers they were not going to be kept on.

He said: “We ­basically saved Jerez from going under. Financially helped them out. And we have filled their squad so they don’t have to pay them contracts.

“It’s a cheap way for them to survive, and it’s a good way for us to play competitive ­football.

“How have the locals taken to having a bunch Englishmen playing for their team? Very well. When we first arrived they had a reception for us. They made it known they were grateful.

“It’s been very positive. Lots of people come up to us to say they are pleased we have kept the right habits on the pitch. We are playing in a technical way. They are impressed at how we pass the ball.

“I think they have this idea abroad of English football being direct all the time. It’s not true 100 per cent, and has been in people’s minds for years. We try to play from the back and have started well. We’ve two Spanish players. The other 20 are English or Irish.

“I have to protect the development of my lads rather than get carried away winning football matches.

“I’m overseeing everything. They have a manager who we work with through the week. I pick the team, but I’m not on the bench. We look at the group in the week, and work out the team.

“We don’t own the club. It’s a ­showcase, a competitive game at the end of the week, the icing on the cake.”

He set up the Glenn Hoddle Academy, a live-in base at the ­Montecastillo Resort in June 2008. He explained: “The first seed of the academy was in the early 90s.

“As a manager I kept having to do this horrible thing – telling 18 and 19 year olds they’re not going to be signed on. It happened every year and it was then that I thought it was far to young to judge these lads, they were still maturing.

“Football is a harsh world and you have to grow up quickly. It is OK for the likes of Rooney, Owen and Ferdinand, who will be fast-tracked, and rightly so because they are special players. But there are a lot of players who I felt needed more time, and that football would lose some talent at these ages.

“I always thought one day I would try and do something about that. It took 18 months to put together. It was right for me and for English football.”

Hoddle’s managerial CV surely means he could land a cushier job elsewhere. He has bossed Swindon, Chelsea, England, Southampton, Spurs and most recently Wolves, four years ago.

He added: “I didn’t do this to replace management. I feel it’s right for me at the moment. We’re opening a second academy in South Africa. I spoke at SoccerEx and have expressions of interest from 62 countries. We’ve 2,000 kids on our website asking for trials. It’s changing people’s lives.

“For me doing that’s more important than winning medals and cups.

“I’ve had lots of offers in the couple of years we’ve been doing this. But I owe it to myself and the hard work the staff have put in to stay and do this. I feel very fulfilled at the moment.

“You couldn’t do this and a club job together. An international job yes. If in 18 months’ time I think I could go back and work, if the offer was there, do an international job.”

So Hoddle’s will continue on his mission abroad? “The first five games with Jerez were been like a pre-season for us. We are doing OK.

“The main thing is the way we play. They have a Spanish coach and assistant. We have Rix, Spackman and Beasant who rotate and go on the bench for two games at a time. I oversee it all in the stand. It’s a great experiment.

“I think we’ve hit on something. I can see how this blueprint helps a club. It’s thrown up a few positives and I bet people are looking at it and thinking this could work.

“We can’t get all the lads back into the game. We’ve said that to them. We can’t guarantee it. But we can guarantee they will improve.”

http://tinypic.com/r/s0wvar/7 (a hoy hoy), Saturday, 9 October 2010 15:59 (nine years ago) link

That's really excellent. Who knew?

Ismael Klata, Saturday, 9 October 2010 16:05 (nine years ago) link

Anyone who plays Football Manager. I'm forever knocking back invites to play a friendly with the Glen Hoddle Academy.

away from football we're perfectly nice gentlemen (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 9 October 2010 16:12 (nine years ago) link

Altho that article has fleshed in a lot of details.

away from football we're perfectly nice gentlemen (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 9 October 2010 16:12 (nine years ago) link

they've all made mistakes in a previous career imo

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Saturday, 9 October 2010 16:19 (nine years ago) link

Let's not bring that story back to life.

away from football we're perfectly nice gentlemen (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 9 October 2010 16:26 (nine years ago) link

i always accept playing the gh academy - even found a 2 star regen playing them one time! made about three million on him iirc.

http://tinypic.com/r/s0wvar/7 (a hoy hoy), Saturday, 9 October 2010 18:22 (nine years ago) link

chamakra

i dont love everything, i love football (darraghmac), Saturday, 9 October 2010 18:26 (nine years ago) link

I've got Lineker's show on in the background just now - a nice little detail I hadn't noticed is the caption 'Michael Owen, England 1998-2008'. I guess that's official then.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 10 October 2010 10:14 (nine years ago) link

Lineker doc was hilarious. Show would be lost if Eng were humiliated like this after 2006: er...Italy, yeah Inter Milan have...mostly foreign players, the league is corrupt etc etc. The whole doc rested on an Eng-Spain comparison.

Martin Samuel otm: all English in the 70s and 80s, zilch on the pitch.

Best thing on it was Mourinho's 'every policeman pulling together' speech.

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 10 October 2010 20:48 (nine years ago) link

Jose's perception of the country was a bit strange all round: "One thing I know - every Englishman ... is a very proud Englishman"

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 10 October 2010 20:57 (nine years ago) link

Actually, my absolute favourite thing might've been the footage of Venables coaching at Barca, all eye movement and gesticulation ("'e trie'a cover that, cover that, cover that ... 'e covered nothing") - and then the poor translator having to run in and reenact the whole thing in Spanish.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 10 October 2010 21:05 (nine years ago) link

Has it ever occurred to anyone in the English games that if foreign players can come to England, English players can equally go and play in foreign?

Rohan Ricketts has just been on Talk Of The Terrace on ESPN, currently plays for Dacia Chisinau in Moldova. Also said there might be a chance for him to join a German team.

Presenters asked Stephen... (didn't recognise him) if he ever fancied playing abroad. He said he had the chance to go to France but he preferred the British game, and that his style of play would have resulted in a few more bookings abroad.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Monday, 18 October 2010 18:36 (eight years ago) link

Going to play in Moldova is pretty hardcore, top respect to that lad whoever he is.

The other bloke's name wasn't Gerrard, was it?

Ismael Klata, Monday, 18 October 2010 19:34 (eight years ago) link

McManus? Pressley? Caldwell? Plenty crap tacklers called Stephen/Steven, tbh.

(twitter tells me it was Steve Lomas)

ailsa, Monday, 18 October 2010 19:43 (eight years ago) link

whoever he is?

that's only rohan bloody ricketts mate, the proto jenas

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Monday, 18 October 2010 20:29 (eight years ago) link

Steve Lomas? Really? Didn't recognise him at all.

The referee was perfect (Chris), Monday, 18 October 2010 21:10 (eight years ago) link

My bad - have done my research and do vaguely remember the fellow. I love the multiple levels of myth-making here:

In an reported interview with FC Dacia, Ricketts said that he has played with England at the under-18, and under-21. It is believed that Ricketts also played with the England B team as well

Ismael Klata, Monday, 18 October 2010 21:33 (eight years ago) link

not to mention:

American rapper 50 Cent has been seen sporting the midfielder's shirt

Ismael Klata, Monday, 18 October 2010 21:35 (eight years ago) link

nobody knows

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Monday, 18 October 2010 21:41 (eight years ago) link

Ricketts mentions 50 Cent in his latest blog.

http://www.sabotagetimes.com/football-sport/what-really-happens-when-a-manager-loses-the-dressing-room/

The referee was perfect (Chris), Monday, 18 October 2010 21:42 (eight years ago) link

three weeks pass...

looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool amirite?

Foster (Birmingham), Hart (Man City), Green (West Ham); Gibbs (Arsenal), Cole (Chelsea), Terry (Chelsea), Jagielka (Everton), Lescott (Man City), Richards (Man City), Ferdinand (Man Utd), Smalling (Man Utd); Walcott (Arsenal), Wilshere (Arsenal), Young (Aston Villa), Gerrard (Liverpool), Barry (Man City), Johnson (Man City), Milner (Man City), Henderson (Sunderland); Agbonlahor (Aston Villa), Bothroyd (Cardiff), Carroll (Newcastle), Crouch (Tottenham).

hoy orbison (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 14 November 2010 13:08 (eight years ago) link

More like Jay Bollocksroyd

Harry Boors (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 November 2010 13:10 (eight years ago) link

class player, if not the most consistent. has played abroad too (perugia?) so fuckit why not. england not blessed with great strikers.

carroll is england CF of ten year tenure if he can (i) cop on and (ii) avoid prejudice in the way k davies hasn't

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:30 (eight years ago) link

dunno why bother with terry gerrard ferdinand tho, developmental squad and all that.

where's thudd?

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:31 (eight years ago) link

Carroll wd be okay as an impact sub but fuck starting a target man at international level.

Harry Boors (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:36 (eight years ago) link

rong

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:38 (eight years ago) link

Wd rather lose than play that way

Harry Boors (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:40 (eight years ago) link

'that way' = guy that's good on ground, amazing in the air. newcastle dont play 'that way'

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:42 (eight years ago) link

Fair enough I've not been paying much attention since they stopped being lol but I think we're a bit premature with the "good enough to play for England" chat. Need to suck it and see.

I've seen moments of class from Bothroyd but they've been sandwiched between hours of poncing about doing fuck all.

Harry Boors (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:44 (eight years ago) link

i disagree with the 'wait and see' approach. given the level of talent these guys must have to get to the level they do, (trusting a lot here, out of character) i think form >>>>>> every other aspect of the striker's art.

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:46 (eight years ago) link

it's the same kind of thinking that left terry, gerrard, heskey, rooney as undroppable going into the WC- 'who do we have to replace them'?- well. loads of guys, actually. get them into an england short, ask the question of both sets of players- the shirking untouchables, the flushing youth

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:48 (eight years ago) link

No, I agree Carroll deserves his chance, I just don't think him doing well is a foregone conclusion.

Harry Boors (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:49 (eight years ago) link

never is. fabianski for england tbf

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:49 (eight years ago) link

@kevindaviesbwfc
Kevin Davies
Not in the England squad time for a beer!!!
19 hours ago via Twitter for iPhone

Noel 1 Silence 0 (blueski), Sunday, 14 November 2010 15:59 (eight years ago) link

for crouch to be in there ahead of him is shite, but then i dont get that squad tbh

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 16:03 (eight years ago) link

Smalling, though?

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 14 November 2010 16:42 (eight years ago) link

nah, not up front

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Sunday, 14 November 2010 16:52 (eight years ago) link

Smalling over Jones is the most hilarious part imo.

hoy orbison (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 14 November 2010 18:50 (eight years ago) link

Just turned on ESPN to find Germany Under 21's 2-0 up on England. England appear to have Henri Lansbury in goal! Isn't he one of yours a hoy hoy and James M? Also isn't he a left winger! lol

They're showing Argentina vs. Brasil tmrw btw.

epically swindled (pandemic), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 18:40 (eight years ago) link

He... doesn't really have a position. And when I say that I mean like James Milner, not like 'he can be a goalie'. wtf.

hoy orbison (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 19:32 (eight years ago) link

goalie sent off in that game fyi

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 19:34 (eight years ago) link

He's like a new signing. LANSbury.

James Mitchell, Tuesday, 16 November 2010 20:56 (eight years ago) link

not like 'he can be a goalie'. wtf.

Also, this is Arsenal. Anybody can be a goalie at Arsenal.

James Mitchell, Tuesday, 16 November 2010 21:15 (eight years ago) link

haha

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 21:18 (eight years ago) link

true true

hoy orbison (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 21:18 (eight years ago) link

can totally see that- arsene only ever scouts wingers, and the slower they progress they further back the pitch they land from 15, 16, 17 onwards

cant believe you sb'd me for that (darraghmac), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 21:19 (eight years ago) link

haha

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 16 November 2010 21:37 (eight years ago) link

arsene only scouts deep lying playmakers

hoy orbison (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 16 November 2010 21:38 (eight years ago) link

England looking awfully scrappy.

I'm being a smartass here, but in a fun way (NotEnough), Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:20 (eight years ago) link

Carroll's playing, then?

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:21 (eight years ago) link

Stream went down and I missed the goal. What happened?

Yeh, Carrol's upfront, pretty ineffective so far.

I'm being a smartass here, but in a fun way (NotEnough), Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:23 (eight years ago) link

GOAL! England 0-1 France (Benzema 16') That's a lovely goal, as the England players could tell you, given that they stood idly by and watched it.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:27 (eight years ago) link

It was a one-two between Malouda and Benzema on the edge the box which ended up with Benzema beating Foster rather easily at his near post. England are being schooled at the moment.

Number None, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:34 (eight years ago) link

Carroll's done enough in the last five minutes to suggest that this is how England are going to play from now on.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:36 (eight years ago) link

i.e. won three or four headers from longish punts

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:37 (eight years ago) link

it does a lot more for the team in terms of keeping opposition pushed back and wary than just that tbf. wish spurs had the option.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:42 (eight years ago) link

Yeah I know, but it's still not going to win things. I'm on his side, he's a potentially amazing player, not exactly Ronaldoesque but maybe the closest we're likely to see. It's not going to work out that way of course.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 20:48 (eight years ago) link

ha i'm a fan but he's maybe fabiano-esque if we're making unlikely potential-fulfilling comparisons

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 November 2010 21:02 (eight years ago) link

BALE IN.

James Mitchell, Wednesday, 17 November 2010 21:59 (eight years ago) link

bailout

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Wednesday, 17 November 2010 22:04 (eight years ago) link

wot no ilxors anywhere discussing last nights, ahem, performance?

F-Unit (Ste), Thursday, 18 November 2010 10:36 (eight years ago) link

Think they're all over on the international football friendlies thread which hasn't been moved over here yet (hi dere plz a real mod who can move stuff?)

ailsa, Thursday, 18 November 2010 11:10 (eight years ago) link

hi dere no longer a real mod ;_;

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 20:35 (eight years ago) link

there isn't actually anything to discuss btw

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 20:37 (eight years ago) link

not from last night.

capello needs to start picking players on their last league game and nothing more. that's only as good as you are anyway iirc

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 20:38 (eight years ago) link

Can't tell what's a challop and what isn't any more.

Tommy Duckworth (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:08 (eight years ago) link

pretty sure capello's squad was actually a challop.

downing should have started left side for england, based on nothing but his performance against utd. i'm not really invested in chasing the rest of it tbh.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:12 (eight years ago) link

Sadly, I felt last night more or less vindicated Capello's sticking with the old guard in the summer.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:15 (eight years ago) link

Downing is a better option than most of the other England left midfielders on any given, I think. The rest of it doesn't bear much chasing tbh.

Tommy Duckworth (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:15 (eight years ago) link

last night vindicated jack wilshere

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:15 (eight years ago) link

I am sorry to say

also it vindicated paul scholes

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:16 (eight years ago) link

nothing retroactively vindicates abject failure. if you don't bring form to the world cup then you've bottled it.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:17 (eight years ago) link

Didn't watch the game cos fuck a friendly, also we were out, but that was a grab-bag team and I don't think you could draw many long-term conclusions from any performance it made.

Tommy Duckworth (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:19 (eight years ago) link

drawing conclusions from him picking a grab-bag team. not much else to take from t, really, as i said.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:21 (eight years ago) link

I saw the first 15 minutes then fucked off to cricket training, saw enough tho :D

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:21 (eight years ago) link

You don't get the feeling that there is a plan any more, tbh.

Tommy Duckworth (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:22 (eight years ago) link

Maybe wheels are turning under the surface but after all the soul-searching and the convincing critiques of English football during the World Cup, the FA looks ever so much like it's masterplan is: do fuck all about the infrastructure but appoint an English guy next go round.

Tommy Duckworth (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:24 (eight years ago) link

really.

he didn't have a stream of players ready and waiting to go?

it's a bit of a kneejerk, but genuinely- what do these guys do all day.

i'm neither english nor a football manager, but i could fill napkins with possible 1st, 2nd, 3rd choice X's, up-and-coming give em a game in the cup XI's, left footed XI's, sex scandal XI's, you name it XI's.

nobody picks teams with any gusto anymore, all managers act like it's a nuisance. it's sad.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:25 (eight years ago) link

I honestly would love to know how Capello fills his days

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:32 (eight years ago) link

This is England. This is their thing.

For as long as I've followed football, England have always been technically inferior, tactically inept and, seemingly, mentally fragile under the pressure of playing competent teams. Their entire 'gameplan' has always been based around a desperate, straw-clutching hope that one of their handful (being generous) of players that isn't utterly embarrassed by the ball will somehow pull a rabbit out of his arse and compensate for the pitiful inadequacy of the rest of the team. And thus we - as supporters, fans, bemused observers - end up pinning all our expectations on one poor sod to carry the country to glory (or not); casting him in the role of ephemeral demigod or abject scapegoat as and when results suit.

Aside from one fleeting summer under Terry Venables and the odd game under Hoddle (or perhaps karma should get the credit), I honestly don't recall England ever playing like a team. Not in the last 20 years anyway. They've always been about over-rated individuals dragging along mediocre-to-abysmal individuals - all within a structure of tactical chaos, indiscipline and self-importance.

NV will no doubt agree with this F365 mailbox dude. I know Capello's not got much to work with, but that's no excuse not to work with what he has got- plenty of good young players available, starts with gerrard and barry- not only two of the guys that stank the place out in the summer, but two guys that, let's be honest, have been pretty shit since then too. a few friendlies that feature all-new lineups or at least all u-28 players might send a good message- england b teams, but without the sting that the 'b' suggests

good to see lescott in there tho. dont care what moyes or mancini think, that guy is international class

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:35 (eight years ago) link

with the likes of Johnson, Wilshere, Gibbs, Rodwell, Carroll and Walcott (sometimes) looking like good players, I think we'll be okay in 3-4 years' time. We'll just have to put up with Barry/Lampard/Ferdinand/Terry/Gerrard for a couple more years.

Mark, Windsor

mark, windsor, is completely fucking deluded. england have nobody coming up to replace the talents of gerrard, ferdinand or lampard.

i have no idea how that tallies with my other statements in this thread, i'm just saying what i'm FEELING

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:47 (eight years ago) link

gerrard is a fucking hex over this england team, no matter how well he plays, and we will be grateful to be rid of him

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:53 (eight years ago) link

make mark e smith national manager imo

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:53 (eight years ago) link

i agree with you about gerrard, but then i think the same about lampard & rooney.

given that ferdinand's a crock, what's left? and any stage of development?

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:55 (eight years ago) link

at any stage, sry

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:55 (eight years ago) link

phil jones iirc

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:56 (eight years ago) link

also ciaran clark

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:56 (eight years ago) link

not forgetting titus bramble

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:57 (eight years ago) link

keep away from ciaran clark ty

you'll be after the uncapped coleman next

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:57 (eight years ago) link

lampard has not been used well by england and our other midfielders have not been up to his standard. fact

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:58 (eight years ago) link

also why are all the cunts we need not english

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 21:59 (eight years ago) link

Lennon Huddlestone Wilshere Young Agbonlahor Walcott

add carroll as the focal point here, hell- add k davies temporarily if you like. add in a johnson, henderson and rodwell too, if they're your thing. maybe cattermole, and maybe parker temporarily.

there's a lot going on that isn't a jaded and frankly not-too-bothered g barry right now

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:00 (eight years ago) link

have you u-turned on lampard in recent times?

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:00 (eight years ago) link

got mad hopes for michael mancienne. noodle vague plz come and laugh at me

not lennon, lennon has not got enough. we don't need wingers, we need adaptive forwards, like wilshere arguably but more like players who aren't english

have always liked lampard

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:01 (eight years ago) link

as a footballer

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:02 (eight years ago) link

tell you what, brian, btw

if michael carrick is yr nation's idea of a 'thoughtful passing midfielder' then

a) you can't tell rabbit in headlights from 'thoughtful'

b) you have no business thinking of seedings for international tournaments.

glad on your behalf capello's stopped picking him

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:02 (eight years ago) link

lennon back to form now, yeah, but in the season leading to the WC he was like aaron lennon with a masters in decision making and courage.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:03 (eight years ago) link

mad hopes for mancienne- dash 'em now imo. if years of football manager have taught me anything (debatable) it's that a defender/defensive midfielder with stats above 12 for 'flair/dribble' are always unmitigated disasters

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:05 (eight years ago) link

huddlestone hargreaves (still believe!) wilshere henderson (used properly) walcott carroll

is a possibility, ideally we'd have a good long-term replacement for hargreaves (rodwell? cattermole? lol) and who knows how good henri lansbury will be (i do, answer is 'fairly')

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:07 (eight years ago) link

the henderson that played vs chelsea the other day is not the one employed to sit back and watch france pass the other day

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:08 (eight years ago) link

wait double use of 'the other day' curse it all

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:08 (eight years ago) link

hargreaves will never again play a run of games that merits inclusion in an england squad. henderson is still too early days to make any kind of call on, kind of like rodwell imo, but rodwell looks a very good prospect.

walcott- don't think you can include walcott but pooh-pooh lennon. they're the same player, but one runs at the goal while tripping himself up and the other runs at the corner flag. neither good enough for england, in an ideal world, because without pace they'd actually be very shit at football. go with ashley young.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:12 (eight years ago) link

i got hope for walcott's touch and movement, lennon is just a wing-merchant who has been worked out largely

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:13 (eight years ago) link

lennon's neural pathways are deep and intimidating structures, but when hes jolted out of them (as was the case for a large part of last year) he's better than walcott will ever be, i think. i don't think walcott's good enough at football to be successfully included in a team that likes to keep and pass the ball. i cant understand how he's still at arsenal, tbh.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:18 (eight years ago) link

Lennon has suffered a bit from a) his injury last season and b) the emergence of Gareth Bale at the same time. Spurs players used to pass to him at every opportunity, now he barely gets the ball because it's always going out left.

Nothing about any of these future England XIs being compiled convinced me that they will have enough to compete internationally for the next ten years or so.

Matt DC, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:21 (eight years ago) link

ok well i've previously included them both in mooted england teams

fast players with great touch and adaptability would be nice. lennon needs to move to a club where 4-4-2 is not practiced

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:22 (eight years ago) link

lennon needs to move to liverpool

haaaa

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:23 (eight years ago) link

It's not practised at Spurs very often any more, but Lennon strikes me as a straight 4-4-2 kinda winger, not the kind that can adapt very well to being the right side of a front three. It's more likely to be Adam Johnson playing there in future.

Matt DC, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:23 (eight years ago) link

oh god yeah I forgot him, he has ability even if his movement might not be quite there

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:24 (eight years ago) link

Also he's left-footed but whatever.

Matt DC, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:25 (eight years ago) link

that isn't so much an issue, viz. every decent european side currently playing

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:27 (eight years ago) link

he's a left footer, but his main strength is shooting/crossing with inswing on that foot, so right side it is

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:28 (eight years ago) link

lampard can play in the middle for england until the next euros imo, he's more needed than everyone thinks, but he needs good players around him - lampard, wilshere, huddlestone, hargreaves/rodwell/cattermole axis of short-passing splendour

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:32 (eight years ago) link

dunno that lampard's short passing game is anything like as good as his long cunting game tbph

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:33 (eight years ago) link

thread needs pete w right now - lampard's short passing game is pretty good tbpfh

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:35 (eight years ago) link

he just hasn't had people to short-pass to

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:35 (eight years ago) link

perhaps lee cattermole will become the english essien

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:36 (eight years ago) link

pf, daswo i'm tawkinbaaaht

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:36 (eight years ago) link

dunno, even based on chelsea i don't think pass and move is his thing. he got mad defence-unlocking passes, no doubt, but not sure he's really a give-and-go type

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:37 (eight years ago) link

he's a kinda deep-lying give-and-go initiator maybe

hmm

scholes plz be 25 again

acoleuthic, Thursday, 18 November 2010 22:45 (eight years ago) link

hargreaves/rodwell/cattermole axis of short-passing splendour

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 00:50 (eight years ago) link

you

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 00:51 (eight years ago) link

it's easy to snipe from the sidelines

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 00:53 (eight years ago) link

i mean look at rafa............

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 00:53 (eight years ago) link

nothing against hargreavres and rodwell btw

cattermole is just a cunt

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 00:59 (eight years ago) link

hargreaves snapped in half trying to pick up his injury file, let's be real

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:01 (eight years ago) link

tragic story of english football is the first red card of season book....first half dozen names are usually all english

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:02 (eight years ago) link

is a possibility, ideally we'd have a good long-term replacement for hargreaves (rodwell? cattermole? lol)

dude i provided the lol caveat

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:05 (eight years ago) link

rodwell is proper player

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:07 (eight years ago) link

lol applied only to cattermole, do the rhetorical math

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:08 (eight years ago) link

well then the brackets shouldn't have been around both of em iirc

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:10 (eight years ago) link

oh i understood

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:10 (eight years ago) link

(nakhchivan + darraghmac) / (cattermole - rodwell) = scorchedearth.jpg

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:11 (eight years ago) link

(Rodwell, Cattermole)lol = lol rodwell, lol cattermole

what you wanted is

rodwell, (cattermole, lol)

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:12 (eight years ago) link

dammit beaten to the xp by my tardy factorisation, mrs quigley had me well spotted for a dunce in second year i fear

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:13 (eight years ago) link

no, (rodwell + cattermole x lol) = rodwell + catterlol (soz for the a hoy hoy)

(rodwell + cattermole) x lol = england for the next 6 years

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:14 (eight years ago) link

the serial question mark suggests the following clause would refer to last item only, otherwise x, x? would be used

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:16 (eight years ago) link

this henderson kid tho

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:16 (eight years ago) link

proper player or new gareth barry/?

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:17 (eight years ago) link

(henderson + cattermole) x (chelsea - lampard) = ?!

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:17 (eight years ago) link

henderson's assist for gyan when he tricked his way down the wing and put in a brilliant cross is a surefire sign for me that using him as anything but a roaming attacking midfielder would be a terrible waste, he is nothing like Barry for he has close control, pace and lampardian burst boxwards

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:19 (eight years ago) link

most of all, his mentality is to create goalscoring chances and not 'contain' - horribly misused vs france

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:19 (eight years ago) link

against chelsea he defended by using possession positively and forcing chelsea out of shape

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:19 (eight years ago) link

'dynamism'

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:20 (eight years ago) link

'lampardian burst' surely a stomach wall malady

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:21 (eight years ago) link

yeah i reckon henderson's gonna be better than barry but that's not saying much

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:24 (eight years ago) link

england the natural home of roaming attacking midfielders iirc

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:24 (eight years ago) link

what could possibly go wrong there

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:25 (eight years ago) link

the trick is turning them into roaming space-filling diffusions of mercury - when an englishman roams, it tends to be with rhinocerine charges

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:25 (eight years ago) link

yeah le tiss of the 18 caps was a fucking lumpfoot of the highest order it's troo it's troo

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:28 (eight years ago) link

you and your kin all know that he is a whopping great silken-toed anomaly

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:29 (eight years ago) link

first dropped points and it would be off with the luxury player's head, and barry would be grafted back in. cos he grafts, the boy. making basic shit look difficult = grafting in england international midfieldery parlance.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:29 (eight years ago) link

le tiss, gazza (ok, utilised correctly for a change, but then remember that when this was the case ye were actually pretty fukn good), scholes, ????

who's gonna line up for that 'stick him on the left, e's a good ployer e'll work it out' role?

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:30 (eight years ago) link

you make a good point, but barry is not an attacking mf so you have strayed off-topic like a gerrard punt

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:31 (eight years ago) link

prob add j cole, maybe lampard to the end of that list actually. criminally undervalued in successive england teams that needed more honest effort and a little less ball control.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:31 (eight years ago) link

also, jason wilcox obv

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:31 (eight years ago) link

haha am now wondering whether paul merson could have been all that

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:32 (eight years ago) link

yeah it's true i'm all sermon and no instruction manual tonight.

tho tbh this is all stemming from your contention that j henderson should be a floating attacking midfielder, so tbh it's all net mfer

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:32 (eight years ago) link

merse, absolutely.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:32 (eight years ago) link

that is what j henderson was v chelsea, albeit with positional discipline when not in possession

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:33 (eight years ago) link

yeah but what i'm sayin is when have england ever shown beagán píosa grá for such a role, regardless of the availability of suitable candidates

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:35 (eight years ago) link

hence 'when an englishman roams, it tends' - i speak of a tendency and one that jack wilshere and his merrie men will hopefully challenge. if arsenal's youth setup turns england good i will stop mocking a hoy hoy forever, maybe

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:36 (eight years ago) link

none of the players i have listed have tended towards rhinocerine- they just weren't picked because of their meandering grazing patterns.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:39 (eight years ago) link

well, you said they were exceptions!

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:40 (eight years ago) link

we're going in circles like an aaron lennon sortie

acoleuthic, Friday, 19 November 2010 01:41 (eight years ago) link

nope, i said that gazza was the exception in that he was tolerated in such a role- and england prospered.

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:43 (eight years ago) link

course lennon goes in circles, he's only got one foot

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 01:44 (eight years ago) link

beagán píosa grá

wtf is this, you're in an England topic ya bas. not that i'm english.

scholes should be on about 120 caps of being played in the wrong position by now.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Friday, 19 November 2010 02:45 (eight years ago) link

one must search wherever one can for le juste mot imo

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 02:47 (eight years ago) link

i've prob ordered that wrong innit, lol 20 hours sleep since saturday

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 02:48 (eight years ago) link

pretty sure it's le mot juste. though i know this mostly from sideshow bob.

i'm a broken man myself, mostly because i just came from a party with much baffling nudity and headstands.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Friday, 19 November 2010 02:56 (eight years ago) link

god it's never ILTMI when you want it to be.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Friday, 19 November 2010 02:57 (eight years ago) link

no, i'm pretty sure that's tmi

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 03:03 (eight years ago) link

i've prob ordered that wrong innit, lol 20 hours sleep since saturday

― Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 02:48 (16 minutes ago)

why are u posting here at 3am then

nakhchivan, Friday, 19 November 2010 03:05 (eight years ago) link

chicken egg

Goths in Home & Away in my lifetime (darraghmac), Friday, 19 November 2010 03:16 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

FA have been and remain such stupid cunts about this
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/9357918.stm

just make it an every two years thing in June (ideally including Ireland and France or any willing sixth guest), stop overcompliating this

idgi fridays (blueski), Tuesday, 11 January 2011 19:20 (eight years ago) link

A six-team thing could be more fun than the old format - the growth in money/celebrity makes it feel much less like a clash of equals or almost-equals like it once was.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 11 January 2011 20:31 (eight years ago) link

USA USA USA USA USA

dan m, Tuesday, 11 January 2011 21:02 (eight years ago) link

(as an invitee, of course)

dan m, Tuesday, 11 January 2011 21:03 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

Jon Miquel Toral Harper, the attacking midfielder who will join Arsenal this summer due to a loophole from Barcelona is half English.

An attacking playmaker from Barcelona is half English.

He only left Barc-e-fucking-lona because he wanted to go back to England. Barca wanted him to stay and supposedly be fast-tracked into Barca B.

If England let this guy slide and become a Spanish international, then this national team deserves to lose everything.

(I have no idea whether he is any good or not.)

Samuel (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 10:35 (eight years ago) link

Little Johnny Harper, you mean?

Yossarian's sense of humour (NotEnough), Thursday, 24 February 2011 11:02 (eight years ago) link

Jonathan Michael Tony 'arper, yes.

James Mitchell, Thursday, 24 February 2011 11:05 (eight years ago) link

EBJMTH actually.

Samuel (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 11:05 (eight years ago) link

http://www.cleansheetsallround.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Jon-Miquel-Toral-Harper-Arsenal.jpg

Like Robert Johnson, only one photo of the kid appears to exist. He hasn't even got his eyes open in it.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 24 February 2011 11:24 (eight years ago) link

It's Johann Cruyff!!

Paulo Odd Futre (pandemic), Thursday, 24 February 2011 11:42 (eight years ago) link

probably safest to call up every Spanish teenager with English eligibility for the Wales game just in case.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 24 February 2011 12:28 (eight years ago) link

i know, right?

Samuel (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 24 February 2011 14:30 (eight years ago) link

three weeks pass...

this 'capello handled the terry captaincy thing badly' *thing* is a load of bollocks isn't it? first thing that was reported was that he was meeting with the fa to discuss the possibility of reinstating terry wasn't it? he didn't actually say to the press 'JT's skipper, bad luck rio' did he?

territory of the magic wand (Chris), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 15:18 (eight years ago) link

Ideally I'd say he's made an arse of it by making it an issue at all - just give it to the guy with most caps and neutralise the issue. But it clearly does matter to England in a way it doesn't for other countries (why is that, exactly?) so that wouldn't've worked either. He's probably done as best he can - Terry pretty clearly has the strongest personality/most stamina here so is the right choice I guess. If there was a mistake it was ditching him in the first place, but then what choice was there at the time?

I wish it didn't matter though, it's only one more thing to go wrong/give primadonnas an excuse to do something other than their jobs.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:20 (eight years ago) link

last sentence otm

the '' key on my keybord is not working (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:33 (eight years ago) link

The media has blown this up in order to undermind Capello, it's so obvious. Simmering resentment between Rio and EBJT might be a problem at international level but I'd be surprised if they play that many more games together. I can see Rio retiring from international football before long to concentrate on avoiding injuries/prolonging his domestic game.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 16:36 (eight years ago) link

Agree with Ismael. Don't understand why it's such a thing. Just give it to the guy most sure of his place and who doesn't mind having to front up to the press every game. So really Rooney (who I doubt wants it) Ashley Cole, or (my choice) Joe Hart. On that Sky sports journalist show the other day they were all horrified at the idea of a goalie being captain - too far away from the other players, can't communicate with the forwards etc etc. Just bollocks. Spain seem to muddle through with Casillas just about.

kuyty on a mission (pandemic), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:03 (eight years ago) link

god knows what the press are gonna moan about when their mate 'arry gets the job.

territory of the magic wand (Chris), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:11 (eight years ago) link

apart from the players obviously. i'm sure they'll still be providing the lols.

territory of the magic wand (Chris), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:13 (eight years ago) link

Just give it to the guy most sure of his place and who doesn't mind having to front up to the press every game

Haha thing is that's probably Terry.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:20 (eight years ago) link

What about a rolling captaincy where everybody gets a turn except Terry?

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:20 (eight years ago) link

god knows what the press are gonna moan about when their mate 'arry gets the job.

― territory of the magic wand (Chris), Tuesday, March 22, 2011 5:11 PM

hopefully he performs as well for england as he's done for us, then he won't have to. media relations are only really a big deal when you're fucking things up in your actual primary job as a football manager.

the '' key on my keybord is not working (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:24 (eight years ago) link

it is gonna be redknapp btw innit?

territory of the magic wand (Chris), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:28 (eight years ago) link

will he get hired if his legal issues aren't cleared up?

mizzell, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:29 (eight years ago) link

Well since he's totally innocent of the charge the Inland Revenue has brought against him and has never been involved in any dodgy deals in his life and lives in a hermitage with his Mrs and his dog I'm sure he'll be acquitted in court and free to take up the post, yeah.

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:30 (eight years ago) link

yeah

the '' key on my keybord is not working (darraghmac), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:30 (eight years ago) link

He'll need to do better for England than he's so far done for us. As it is he's a quarter-finals kinda manager and that's not been enough to save England managers in the past. England playing decent football would help though.

Matt DC, Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:30 (eight years ago) link

lol at the idea that anyone stays a media darling when they become england manager

Nult AGL (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:37 (eight years ago) link

^^^

kuyty on a mission (pandemic), Tuesday, 22 March 2011 17:43 (eight years ago) link

We played so many teams who could keep the ball better, their technique was better. Other players in the teams I played in acknowledged that; everybody recognised it.

I know that, you know that, everybody knows that - but I'm still surprised that the players know it. No wonder they lose against every decent side they play, if mentally they're half-beaten before they make it onto the pitch (and can't keep the ball, obviously).

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:48 (eight years ago) link

"English type of player" is shorthand for "big, aggressive, shit", right?

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:49 (eight years ago) link

that sort of sentiment is common enough from the likes of brooking, yet 'big, aggressive shit' has an inertial force like none other

£35m for the world's best championship centre forward

kid 606: the nultness (nakhchivan), Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:52 (eight years ago) link

HE'S GOT AN INTERNATIONAL GOAL HE IS INTERNATIONAL CLASS OBV

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:53 (eight years ago) link

you missed 'end of'

kid 606: the nultness (nakhchivan), Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:54 (eight years ago) link

I like Gareth Southgate, but he has the kind of refreshingly honest approach that will probably see him torn to pieces by fans and the media.

Matt DC, Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:55 (eight years ago) link

Damn I am gonna incorporate more "end of" from now on

a SB-in' artist that been in the game for a minute (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:55 (eight years ago) link

Ohjoeyjoey
Kopite


Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 221
Ohjoeyjoey is a splendid one to beholdOhjoeyjoey is a splendid one to beholdOhjoeyjoey is a splendid one to beholdOhjoeyjoey is a splendid one to beholdOhjoeyjoey is a splendid one to beholdOhjoeyjoey is a splendid one to behold
Crest Big Andy Carroll
(to the tune of "Roll Out The Barrell)

Big Andy Carroll,
He's gonna score in the red
Big Andy Carroll,
Scores with his feet or his head
Who is Fernando?
That's what the Kopites will sing
All stand up for big Andy Carroll
Andy is our King.

kid 606: the nultness (nakhchivan), Thursday, 31 March 2011 11:57 (eight years ago) link

anthony stoked for the madness of carroll's lfc career, dude is gonna pwn hard umo

the salmon of procrastination (darraghmac), Thursday, 31 March 2011 12:03 (eight years ago) link

umo will be devastated to lose his 'hard' soubriquet

kid 606: the nultness (nakhchivan), Thursday, 31 March 2011 12:06 (eight years ago) link

uruguays mickey owen?

the salmon of procrastination (darraghmac), Thursday, 31 March 2011 12:07 (eight years ago) link

oic

the salmon of procrastination (darraghmac), Thursday, 31 March 2011 12:07 (eight years ago) link

Amazing - just walked past Andy Gray on hungerford bridge, talking into his mobile, and I promise you, absolutely no word of a lie, the only word I caught was 'sexist'.

I know it's not the right thread but it was too fun not to post and it did seem pretty tragic.

GamalielRatsey, Thursday, 31 March 2011 18:40 (eight years ago) link

superb

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 31 March 2011 18:45 (eight years ago) link

tho I am now worried I saw him and projected onto some "elephant shoe" formation.

GamalielRatsey, Thursday, 31 March 2011 18:45 (eight years ago) link

no comment, but wow

the salmon of procrastination (darraghmac), Thursday, 31 March 2011 18:46 (eight years ago) link

what a hit son, what a hit.

territory of the magic wand (Chris), Thursday, 31 March 2011 18:59 (eight years ago) link

I love this miserable bastard

Newcastle United's Joey Barton has said England will "never win" the World Cup, and dismissed Gareth Barry's role in the midfield as evidence of a lack of talent.

"France killed us at Wembley," Barton said. "We English will play the next 50 World Cups and we'll never win one. The people in charge at the FA played football maybe 50 or 60 years ago and still think that we can win a World Cup in the same way we did in 1966.

"We're too focused on tradition in England, like always having to play 4-4-2. Sometimes you need to experiment, drop a bit deeper so you have more space to move into. France, Italy and Germany have done it. We've been doing the same thing for 20 years," he added in an interview with the French So Foot magazine.

Barton won just one England cap, in 2007 against Spain, but still believes he has a role to play in Fabio Capello's team: "Honestly, I think I'm the best (English midfielder). Luka Modric and Samir Nasri are very good, but in terms of English players ... Well, Jack Wilshere isn't bad, but Frank Lampard's on the way down and Steven Gerrard's been injured a lot."

He backed this argument, with criticism of Gareth Barry: "Did you see the game against Germany at the World Cup? If you watch the fourth goal, when (Mesut) Ozil was up against Barry, it was like the hare and the tortoise.

"Barry's got a very good agent. He's also discreet and always agrees with the manager. He's like the guy who sits in the front row and listens
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/apr/07/joey-barton-england-world-cup

mizzell, Thursday, 7 April 2011 15:14 (eight years ago) link

"it was like the hare and the tortoise."

I don't think he read the end of this book.

Nult AGL (a hoy hoy), Thursday, 7 April 2011 15:15 (eight years ago) link

loving Joey Barton doesn't even feel wrong any more

nonxp ha!

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 7 April 2011 15:16 (eight years ago) link

Barry really got the best of Ozil when they swapped shirts at the end tho.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Thursday, 7 April 2011 15:19 (eight years ago) link

He's also discreet and always agrees with the manager.

Little known fact: Barton's house is strewn with really lovely lace doilies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzXqf_YNyd4

every time some article about english teams needing to learn how to keep the ball like barca crops up (as with lacey on the graun blog today) i think of this goal

r|t|c, Saturday, 9 April 2011 09:55 (eight years ago) link

some good fundamentals there

cockroach shakespeare (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 9 April 2011 10:01 (eight years ago) link

one month passes...

joe hart rip

harlan, Saturday, 4 June 2011 18:35 (eight years ago) link

Nah. Deflection for the first one, Milner at fault for the second

Number None, Saturday, 4 June 2011 18:37 (eight years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIAbvlMHt3o

Chris, Saturday, 11 June 2011 13:08 (eight years ago) link

Says it all really

Number None, Saturday, 11 June 2011 13:14 (eight years ago) link

"The team that defends the best I guarantee will win this game."

Chris, Saturday, 11 June 2011 13:21 (eight years ago) link

"Ok here comes the the ball, oh wait i've only got two touches, ohshitoshit" *hoof*

Number None, Saturday, 11 June 2011 13:23 (eight years ago) link

So England 2 touch passing practice is actually just shooting practice. Sigh.

pandemic, Saturday, 11 June 2011 13:35 (eight years ago) link

Even more worrying is that the FA don't seem to see the problem here and that they're happy to upload this shit to Youtube. Unless they totally get it and it's a cunning plan designed to draw attention to the deficiencies of English football. Granted it's been edited, but still.

Chris, Saturday, 11 June 2011 16:45 (eight years ago) link

i was involuntarily drawn to mutter "oh you fucking twats" halfway thru the vid

aka best bum of the o_O's (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 11 June 2011 18:07 (eight years ago) link

Option 3: the FA proving it's listening by not making young players play a 90-minute game on a full-size pitch.

William Bloody Swygart, Saturday, 11 June 2011 18:31 (eight years ago) link

q. Gareth Southgate: "In 11-a-side matches there are fewer touches for players. If we go to that format too young, then it becomes much more of an athletic-based game – we have huge pitches that kids can't get around. It benefits the physically stronger players but there's a real danger that we lose the smaller, more technically gifted ones. There is a high drop-out of players in that nature."

madness I say.

Antoine Bugleboy (Merdeyeux), Saturday, 11 June 2011 19:35 (eight years ago) link

I was thinking about starting a thread for this but I guess this is appropriate as any.

Spain have an obvious style of play that goes through the ages (the 'technique is king' aka the Xavi). Germany seem to have spent the past five years doing something similar (the direct + fast + technical ability + organisation aka the Ronaldo). Italy have seemingly always done this (the 'go one up and defend like a bastard' aka the anyone involved in Italian football not named Cassano from the past thirty years). France, Holland, Brazil and Argentina - basically the other BIG footballing nations have been lucky enough to have exceptional talents* but they look as though they are trailing behind Germany and Spain due to disorganisation and no real unity of tactical ideas.

But why are we not looking to create an English 'style' or understanding? Southgate and co have been talking about Barcelona which is fine but where is the bigger picture? If we are copying a style that Cryuff starting working on 20 years ago, we are always going to be 20 years behind. English football does have many great and defining characteristics, much like Italian and German football that should be worked on as well as technique.

This u21 team is all fast, strong, taller and full of stamina. Yet our closing down is laboured, some players are trying everywhere, some stand still. We are a faster, a side based on athletisicm instead of the Spanish skill to pass through us - so why are we playing so deep? If we could push them back into their own half with a high line, we'd have to rely on less long balls, while having fast and tall defenders to deal with what they try to get through or over that high line. Our passing technique isn't great so why keep it in the middle? And when we are going down the wings we have been more effective at getting closer to their box but the midfield aren't looking to get into the box for headers or passes - again if we pushed the defence up they wouldn't have to be so worried about keeping that space.

The improvement of the country's collective touch and pass technique is not going to improve over night but the tactical approach can. And then if you get that technique to work with a system already highlighting and integrating understood national strengths, we'd be doing so much better.

*Of course we need to catch up here too.

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:23 (eight years ago) link

I should have also added that we do seem to create smart centre halves at the top level. Terry is pretty slow but you never notice it because he's always in the right place. Smalling also looks pretty smart and Rio's positioning is spot on most of the time. They are usually incredibly hard to pass through, whether they have a high line or sit deep.

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:26 (eight years ago) link

your collective footballing outlook is mistrust of systems and percentages, and funnels respect more towards the moment of inspiration/brilliance rising from the mire of incompetence.

Your fans complain when centre halves and deeplying midfielders play it amongst themselves

The consistency of performance/touch/whatever from even your top players is alarmingly below the top spanish, dutch, german etc players

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:29 (eight years ago) link

Yes

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:31 (eight years ago) link

'keep it simple and give it to wayne/stevie' is still the default attitude, with only personnel changing.

English players are a certain type, fit a template, which very rarely changes once they sign their first professional contract, they don't ever seem to work on what doesn't come naturally to them imo.

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:33 (eight years ago) link

your collective footballing outlook is mistrust of systems and percentages, and funnels respect more towards the moment of inspiration/brilliance rising from the mire of incompetence.

Your fans complain when centre halves and deeplying midfielders play it amongst themselves

The consistency of performance/touch/whatever from even your top players is alarmingly below the top spanish, dutch, german etc players

― ♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:29 (1 minute ago)

damn, thought you were going to finish with all of your friends are cunts, your mother is a ball-point pen thief

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:34 (eight years ago) link

darragh so basically you are saying why bother attempt change?

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:35 (eight years ago) link

fwiw i've been watching england under 18/21 teams for along time now, and i don't think they lack talent at that level.

It's what happens after that that seems to hold ye back at international level?

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:35 (eight years ago) link

lol xpost

boxall, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:35 (eight years ago) link

I think it might be as simple as lack of resources. In Spain you have thousands of coaches all working to a plan that seems to have been developed over a couple of decades, in Germany the FA has big machinery behind it too. England has a fraction of the coaches, parents filling in the gaps, and so far as there is a plan it seems to be a handful of guys and/or incompetents either making things up (bad) or copying France or Spain or whoever's on top at the moment because that genuinely is the best possible option available.

As for developing a uniquely English style, everything I've read about Charles Reep makes going that way sound horrendous.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:36 (eight years ago) link

jeez, massive xps, must type faster

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:36 (eight years ago) link

Finishing is "technical" too, this U21 team looks good in most respects but not that one.

boxall, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:37 (eight years ago) link

fuck 'england' btw

there is no good 'england' and they will never be more than remedial cunts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:41 (eight years ago) link

nah i'm saying your managers pick a shower of bad attitude spoiled brat cunts to represent the country, and the attitude of that group sucks complete ass.

Pick the u21 team for the next international, add dawson and a few other players untarnished by association with terry et al, then discipline them.

What they're hearing about themselves at their clubs and from the media is affecting them more than it does other countries, or at least other countries that produce similar levels of young talent. Dunno what to do about it, i think trap's having to deal with the start of a similar issue over here with mass dropouts and what have you.

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:41 (eight years ago) link

you a Team GB man then? xpost

Number None, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:42 (eight years ago) link

fuck the rest of them too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:42 (eight years ago) link

Team British Isles, guys, get this Icelandic crop of youngsters involved

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:44 (eight years ago) link

fuck everyone who cares

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:44 (eight years ago) link

oh no, turns out they're as rubbish as old Schteve

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:45 (eight years ago) link

fuck ireland for being so much like england

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:45 (eight years ago) link

xxp yeah, i dunno where the english finishers have gone since owen.

Defoe used to have it, iirc, no idea who since then, and he's near 30

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:45 (eight years ago) link

i don't mind iceland though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:46 (eight years ago) link

Finishers aren't a thing anywhere anymore though

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:47 (eight years ago) link

huh nakh's a provo now

Walker, mancienne, both centre halves, rose, both strikers all look good players in that first half

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:47 (eight years ago) link

shane long's a finisher, in your face

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:47 (eight years ago) link

Well sure attitude is a big fucked up chunk of the problem, like the lack of ability. But I was discussing TACTICS, fucker.

xpost

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:48 (eight years ago) link

Hernandez

Number None, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:48 (eight years ago) link

i think franny jeffers killed the finisher in england

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:48 (eight years ago) link

doesn't really matter how many reasonably good players are elsewhere if there is no midfield at all, as covered upthread

Tragic Football Stories - Let us Kick Around the misshapen Jabulani that is English football right here

wilshere, scholes, hoddle and that's p much it

fabrice muamba is not a midfielder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:52 (eight years ago) link

there's no point devising tactics for a shower with that attitude sam. Successive coaches since sven have discovered that.

Sven convinced this group that their personalities and desires mattered. Poison tbh.

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:53 (eight years ago) link

fucker

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:54 (eight years ago) link

Higuain's the only finisher I can think of at the top level right now, and I'm probably doing him a disservice.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:54 (eight years ago) link

And Pippo of course.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:54 (eight years ago) link

Hernandez. I'll just keep posting it

Number None, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:55 (eight years ago) link

higuain can finish but that doesn't make him a 'finisher' since he has other competencies too

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:55 (eight years ago) link

similarly klass jan huntelaar is 'a finisher' even if he scored 10 goals in the bundesliga

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:56 (eight years ago) link

Haha, he's more than that though. I'm talking guys who contribute goals and that's it.

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:56 (eight years ago) link

hernandez is really

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:57 (eight years ago) link

saviola with guts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:57 (eight years ago) link

Falcao

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:57 (eight years ago) link

I meant Hernandez is, not Huntelaar xp

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:58 (eight years ago) link

The post that started this detour said they lack finishing (a skill) not "a finisher."

boxall, Sunday, 12 June 2011 19:59 (eight years ago) link

yah i read you the first time xp

hernandez is totes 'a finisher' imo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:00 (eight years ago) link

i like chichipoopoo but he is a lot closer to michael owen than say aguero or rossi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:00 (eight years ago) link

yeah

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:01 (eight years ago) link

lols tylers commentary there, lamenting spain's refusal to play with epl strength and spirit and pace

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:18 (eight years ago) link

crafty foreigners are passing it around england and won't stand toe to toe for a fair fight

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:20 (eight years ago) link

it's similar to the vietcong

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:21 (eight years ago) link

2108: Heart-in-mouth time for Danny Welbeck as he scythes down Javi Martinez with a lumbering challenge, minus the nasty intent, but referee Strombergsson decides there was no intent there from the Manchester United striker and ignores the silent Spanish pleas for a second yellow card. Good officiating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:24 (eight years ago) link

was thinkin the big fella collins tbh

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:24 (eight years ago) link

haven't heard henderson's name once, except for tyler enthusing about him for absolutely no reason when spain have it.

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:27 (eight years ago) link

2125: Shit-in-mouth time for Pranav Soneji as he scythes down the english language with a lumbering challenge, minus the nasty intent, but liveblog king Nult decides there was no intent there from the liveblogging trainee and ignores the world's silent pleas for a summary dismissal. Good officiating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:28 (eight years ago) link

decent work

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:29 (eight years ago) link

spanish centre soft

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:30 (eight years ago) link

silent pleas...i don't understand

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:30 (eight years ago) link

Liverpool's new £20m midfielder has done little so far to suggest he is worth all that money

excellent

Ismael Klata, Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:31 (eight years ago) link

Hands clasped, beseeching look? god knows really. xpost

Number None, Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:31 (eight years ago) link

he's chased a lot of players without catchin them, tbf to dude that's not his gane

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:32 (eight years ago) link

Yeah bet Liverpool are so pissed that he isn't performing for a different team.

WHO THE FUCK READS THE (a hoy hoy), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:33 (eight years ago) link

england good when the blood's up what what

♪♫ hey there lamp post, feelin' whiney ♪♫ (darraghmac), Sunday, 12 June 2011 20:34 (eight years ago) link

i'll read this all back in a minute but having just watched that farce my impression is that Spain don't know how to kill a game they're bossing and England are gash

aka best bum of the o_O's (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 12 June 2011 21:16 (eight years ago) link

yeah that seems to've been the general opinion

aka best bum of the o_O's (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 12 June 2011 21:45 (eight years ago) link

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/13744518.stm

didnt catch the match but lol at all this ^^

r|t|c, Monday, 13 June 2011 10:59 (eight years ago) link

At last! Someone identifies the problem. ENGLAND NOT ARROGANT ENOUGH!

pandemic, Monday, 13 June 2011 11:52 (eight years ago) link

Not sure I've seen arrogance identified as a Spanish trait before, footballwise - it's usually German, Italian, Dutch, Argentine or French arrogance (never Brazilian, curiously). I guess this is the sign confirming that Spain have finally made it.

Ismael Klata, Monday, 13 June 2011 11:59 (eight years ago) link

stuart pearce is so fucking stupid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WhiteAmericanFolks.jpg (nakhchivan), Monday, 13 June 2011 12:00 (eight years ago) link

idk man, is he

could any of us, even in jest, have come up with such a breathtakingly savant contortion of logic

i wonder

r|t|c, Monday, 13 June 2011 12:43 (eight years ago) link

The FA remains convinced that Stuart Pearce is the best man to manage the England's Under-21s despite the team's early exit from the European Championship last night and an FA source has confirmed it has no intention of withdrawing the two-year contract extension that has been on offer to him since before the tournament.

nakhchivan, Monday, 20 June 2011 14:01 (eight years ago) link

jobs for the men who can't manage the boys

beta the drivel you know (darraghmac), Monday, 20 June 2011 14:49 (eight years ago) link

he did manage them to the final two years ago tho. i don't know what happened in that game tho, not really interested tbh.

blueski, Monday, 20 June 2011 15:52 (eight years ago) link

Well I'm scandalised that this guy's still got a job doing reasonably well with a team I never pay any attention to

Ismael Klata, Monday, 20 June 2011 16:02 (eight years ago) link

for those who don't want to know what happened to the England U21s in the 2009 final, look away now.

....

....

....

THEY GOT FUCKING GUBBED

j/k lacan (Noodle Vague), Monday, 20 June 2011 16:11 (eight years ago) link

Did Josh McEachran play at all in this tournament? Was he even in the squad? Looks a better prospect than anyone except Wilshere.

Matt DC, Monday, 20 June 2011 16:15 (eight years ago) link

not in the aquad, he's a couple years younger than most of the squad

mizzell, Monday, 20 June 2011 16:20 (eight years ago) link

so bbc runs yet another article about the dude who backed ashley young at watford when everyone said he'd never make it.

"When he got to 15 or 16 there was a school of thought at Watford that he wasn't big enough, strong enough or quick enough to make a professional footballer. I felt I knew him best from working with him and thought he had bags and bags of ability. I really felt there was something there and I think you have got to trust the people who work with the players more than anyone else.

"I'm not one of those that believes you have to be six-feet plus to be a good footballer. I just saw a fantastic footballer and luckily they listened to my opinion about Ashley and kept him there.

okay ashley young is not leo messi, but like, you read this and kinda think how many ashley youngs are getting turfed out at 15/16 in england? i mean there are tons of great players who aren't big...it's not rugby.

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Friday, 24 June 2011 08:51 (eight years ago) link

isn't he p quick/big now?

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Friday, 24 June 2011 09:01 (eight years ago) link

he's still tiny but is very quick.

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Friday, 24 June 2011 09:07 (eight years ago) link

Who's the Watford guy? Not Graham Taylor?

Ismael Klata, Friday, 24 June 2011 09:11 (eight years ago) link

http://forward-football.net/Features/chris-cummins/

some greenzo (onimo), Friday, 24 June 2011 09:17 (eight years ago) link

Can anyone think of a good centre back who wasn't/isn't particularly tall or physically imposing?

Chris, Friday, 24 June 2011 15:58 (eight years ago) link

i always think puyol is tiny and his hair is half his height, dunno if that counts?

Samuel (a hoy hoy), Friday, 24 June 2011 16:02 (eight years ago) link

Bobby Moore

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Friday, 24 June 2011 16:05 (eight years ago) link

Think there must have been plenty of small quick dude/tall jumpy dude combos throughout football history

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Friday, 24 June 2011 16:06 (eight years ago) link

are you just looking for english centre backs? roberto ayala if not.

mizzell, Friday, 24 June 2011 16:07 (eight years ago) link

ok i lied Moore was taller than he looks

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Friday, 24 June 2011 16:08 (eight years ago) link

Cannavaro

mizzell, Friday, 24 June 2011 16:08 (eight years ago) link

Yeah Puyol seems tiny to me too. Wiki says he's 5'10".

x-posts. Any nationality really. Just trying to think of 'unlikely' CBs. Read somewhere that Jay Spearing started out as a CB, and the Ashley Young thing got me thinking.

Chris, Friday, 24 June 2011 16:35 (eight years ago) link

Baresi wasn't the tallest

Number None, Friday, 24 June 2011 16:39 (eight years ago) link

'The greatest full-backs of all time' seems to be the answer here

Ismael Klata, Friday, 24 June 2011 16:43 (eight years ago) link

ivan cordoba

mizzell, Friday, 24 June 2011 17:42 (eight years ago) link

anthony gardner

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Friday, 24 June 2011 17:49 (eight years ago) link

Three Lions of Africa, examining England's World Cup failure in South Africa, will be broadcast at 1930 BST on Tuesday, 28 June. Former Football Association executive director David Davies will present the programme and host a studio discussion immediately afterwards.

a) what a fucking lame title
b) didn't lineker already do this programme six months ago?

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 15:03 (eight years ago) link

hey blueski

i. Yeah
ii. Yeah but can't be overstressed innit

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 15:44 (eight years ago) link

''One mistake and you could be absolutely slaughtered,'' Carragher told BBC Radio 5 live. ''At your club, you know you will not be criticised as much and perhaps three days later there will be another game.

''With England, it could be months before you have another fixture. There is a fear at times when playing for England.''

He added: ''The intensity of the press does get to the players. Sometimes I think players would prefer the press guy to think they had played well, rather than the manager.''

Carragher also claimed the players were bored in South Africa where they spent most of their day in a hotel, saying: ''You stay in a hotel all day but you are at a World Cup for a long time and should be able to experience different things.

''I wouldn't want players holed up. Take away the boredom, embrace the country we are in more. You never see anything.''

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story/_/id/930750/jamie-carragher:-england-suffer-from-fear-factor?cc=5901

mizzell, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 15:50 (eight years ago) link

Did Josh McEachran play at all in this tournament? Was he even in the squad? Looks a better prospect than anyone except Wilshere.

So still a chance Scotland can nick him then?

R. Stornoway (Tom D.), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 15:52 (eight years ago) link

don't make any mistakes, pro tip. You're playing slovakia and algeria.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 15:53 (eight years ago) link

" One mistake and the ref could take action, if a limb is severed he might even book you. It's not like at home, where they understand that, as an England international, you've already proven yourself enough and ought to be supported in your half-arsed efforts"

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 15:55 (eight years ago) link

See, I think this is an interesting admission because I have always surmised that this is England's weakness; a certain timidity born of the disconnect between England's self-image and how good (or poor) they actually are then magnified by a relentless press. It's a terrible timidity, too. Just look at the difference in style of play in '10 between the Germans and the English.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:16 (eight years ago) link

knowing how good you are is a pretty important part of preparing correctly, i don't know how much leeway i'd give there.

And they rarely manage expectations going into the things. Next time, let's have wazza saying 'just happy to get out of the group, when you look at the players we have you've got to be realistic havent you'

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:26 (eight years ago) link

yeah they completely contribute to their own stupid hype, but really if we can't find 23 professional footballers who can deal with the pressure of playing in a World Cup then maybe we shd give up and stick to darts or something

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:28 (eight years ago) link

Imagine it without the hype though, it wouldn't be very entertaining.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:30 (eight years ago) link

i don't know the Scots always seemed to enjoy themselves

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:30 (eight years ago) link

Managing expectations would be a good thing but also telling them (and the English collectively) to just go for it; you're not as good as you think you are but thinking that you're hot shit when you're not actually makes you play worse. It's okay to try and hold onto a 3-0 lead but England have a tendency to try and hold onto 1-0 leads for 60+ minutes which is psychological madness.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:33 (eight years ago) link

yeah well they're like us, just happy to be there

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:33 (eight years ago) link

Why isn't this a problem in English rugby or cricket so much?

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:33 (eight years ago) link

Is it because the English expectations in those sports are more democratic and more reasonable?

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:34 (eight years ago) link

supporting Scotland is no fun

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:35 (eight years ago) link

xp to mw

I agree, yeah. The most common complaint against england in a tournament is their sudden and disastrous attempts to become italians.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:35 (eight years ago) link

in the case of cricket: because they learnt from years of being terrible and made some of the infrastructural changes necessary to improve. also no actual Englishes in the team.

Rugby also seems to give more of a shit about improving the national game but in England that goes in cycles plus they all use horrible business-speak so fuck em

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:36 (eight years ago) link

xp to mw again it's cos you're the only country that plays them tbh

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:36 (eight years ago) link

there is little incentive or will for the English FA to try to improve the game as a whole because the balance of power is massively in favour of the clubs who are only interested in the sport as a profitable spectacle - there isn't that much money in international football. or interest: i suspect like the majority of fans (probably the vast majority of fans north of the Watford Gap) i care way more about my club than i do about the vicissitudes of Lol England

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:39 (eight years ago) link

is their sudden and disastrous attempts to become italians.

Thank you, thank you, thank you... Exactly what I was thinking after I posted that. I hate Italian f-ball enough already but at least they know how to play that way.

again it's cos you're the only country that plays them tbh

US soccer (at least the men's team) has its own issues in terms of technique and in terms of tactics but at least we play with great heart. Maybe it's because for many years that's pretty much all we had.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:41 (eight years ago) link

i care way more about my club than i do about the vicissitudes of Lol England

I've heard that before and wondered if it was a better reflection of English regional factionalism or just a cop-out since England haven't shone in some while. What's the RW on the FA, that Liverpool and Man U and whomever are there real favorites/bosses?

It's telling of English insularity that for years they didn't even bother to compete in the WC.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:44 (eight years ago) link

preferring club to country is fairly common in followers of association football, and has little to do with regionalism, seeing as a club's greatest rivals are generally from the same city/region.

Introducing the Hardline According to (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:48 (eight years ago) link

it's not so much English insularity as the class-riddledness of the administration at the time and the FA's general historical uselessness.

Not caring much about England isn't cos they're crap I think, or not in the way you mean. It's a combo of not being particularly nationalistic (for me: I'd guess this varies a lot but in broad sweeping terms the closer to London you live the more likely you seem to be to care about England as a concept) plus the national side being full of players you spend a lot of the season hating or laughing at plus the annoyance of the public/pundits losing any sense of proportion or logic or knowledge of football when discussing England plus your club tends to be your first proper introduction to football, yr first love as it were plus yr club plays 5 times as many games in a season as the national team plus god knows what else tbh maybe that's all of it

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 16:52 (eight years ago) link

It seems more about supporting England being totally free of consequences. So ludicrous hype, violent mood swings, burning them in effigy, etc. it's a free go at doing all that fun stuff. Y'know, why wouldn't you?

I don't know really though. I used to think it was all serious. Ex-players seem to be the only folk who really care though.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 17:08 (eight years ago) link

I guess that's also like Americans not being ardent supporters of our olympic basketball team or our baseball team in the world cup

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 17:08 (eight years ago) link

I think I would be a much bigger supporter of the England national team if half of them weren't adulterers and in want to be put in jail for GBH. I have no problem with supporting players from my team's rivals or players that get heat on the field - but when they have proof that they are genuine dickheads like most of the england team, whether on the pitch or when fucking another players wife or having his boys jump a dj for not playing his song or keeping the prostitution trade afloat etc. etc.

� (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:37 (eight years ago) link

ugh

Introducing the Hardline According to (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:43 (eight years ago) link

what I find interesting and not often discussed is the decline in the english team in the last decade or so. like they haven't been consistently this shit. under hoddle they were quite good, at least they went out to argentina fighting and gave it a real lash. same at euro 96 under venables. when did the current rot set in, whereby they are just insipid and boring and shit? to my mind it was prob wc 2006, when they just limped through every game then lost to portugal. that's sort of how they've been ever since.

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:50 (eight years ago) link

You missed the fact that they didn't qualify for USA 94

Number None, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:52 (eight years ago) link

england didn't qualify in what, 74, 82, 86, 94 and 08 - maybe we should be looking at why they were SO GOOD in between the normal state of affairs?

� (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:54 (eight years ago) link

lol xpost

� (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:54 (eight years ago) link

yeah fair enough, but they were still at least able to challenge and look somewhat convincing for about a decade. why was that team better? you can't deny in, eg 1998 their exit was a massively diff thing to last year, or even in euro 2004. wc 2002 to some extent as well. people didn't feel as enraged by the exits then cos you could say they played to their potential.

i still maintain for all the talk of the players being deficient, that team is NO WAY as bad as they played in last year's wc.

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 18:57 (eight years ago) link

I dunno man, it did have Matthew Upson and Emile Heskey in it.

� (a hoy hoy), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 19:02 (eight years ago) link

they were great in 96 tbf.

Sven was the guy that installed the big tourney boredom attitude and as long as there's a player left there that was under him i've a feeling it'll remain

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 19:04 (eight years ago) link

England almost always go out epically, at least in world cups. 02 was the exception, even 2010 was epic in its way. To be enjoyed and cherished imo, however maddening.

Again, compare to Scotland, entirely featureless since about 1978, you don't want that. Ireland make a much better fist of things.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 19:07 (eight years ago) link

xxp oh yeah the individuals massively underperformed no doubt

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 19:07 (eight years ago) link

nah they went out with a whimper the last two WCs, they were walloped by germany and the portugal game was just a borefest. i agree sven can take a lot of blame for this, since 06 they've had a summer lethargy.

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:08 (eight years ago) link

i think blaming sven is like blaming rafa for liv last season (yes and no)

couldn't resist watching the eng-ger highlights again under that bbc carragher article

could quite easily have been 4-3 (with england having gone 3-2 up via lampard's "goal" and his free kick which smacked the bar - closer than any german misses). would've flattered england but would've led to the game being thought of as one of their more exciting exits (that didn't involve penalties). but whatever.

the thing that always stands out is the dexterity and precision of the germans. they score from such tight angles. podolski slicing it between james legs...could easily have been blocked or swerved but no it was inch perfect and impeccably timed. same goes for klose's opener - looks like he won't reach it AND be able to poke it in but it just does. the quickness of their third and fourth goals is just as impressive.

anyway for five years now i've said "copy the germans" (not just actually winning or nearly winning or even style of play but arrangements and practices...were their players bored between games? etc.). remember how fucked germany and spain were 7 years ago. analyse their recoveries in every conceivable way. emulate them as much as possible (including the ability to not only cope without key players but adapt to an equivalent or even superior standard without them ie germany sans ballack), unless the PL obstacle really is such a problem that the germans can't be copied in enough ways for the gap to be significantly closed.

feeling more and more that the latter is the case tho. so england are stuck as SHItaly for the foreseeable. a decent performance next Summer would depend more on luck of draw and in games than anything else.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:21 (eight years ago) link

would still much prefer to exit as they did last year than on pens ever again. some sort of progress...

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:23 (eight years ago) link

could quite easily have been 4-3

this is true to a point but could also quite easily have been 8-1, like honestly. germany had loads of clearcut chances.

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:31 (eight years ago) link

i wonder to what extent the clubs coach flexibility out of the players, finding their optimum role and drilling it in to the point that if they're asked to do something different for England it's too much of a stretch? also the kind of football often played in the EPL is untenable in a summer competition anywhere with reasonably high temperatures/humidity? and by employing two coaches in a row from outside of the English system this gap between what the players can do well and what the England coach is asking them to do has just gotten too wide?

The 2004 European Championship was the last time they looked any good amd that was as English as they've played since then, long balls to Rooney and a lot of pace on the counter iirc.

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:37 (eight years ago) link

ha sorry forgot the McLaren interregnum

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:38 (eight years ago) link

Was that when Rooney broke his metatarsal, NV?

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:40 (eight years ago) link

yeah, the 'could have' will kill ye, at least the average irish fan is a pessimist, it gives you a list of things to work on. The 'hard luck' attitude lets you off easy, and tbh is untrue.

I don't blame sven for the lot, but under him the attitude towards england from key players changed perceptibly imo, it became something you had earned as opposed to something to be earned.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:41 (eight years ago) link

xp

he picked up an injury early in the match against Portugal that we eventually lost on penalties (after having a perfectly legit winner disallowed? haha my memory)

can't remember what the exact injury was, I thought the metatarsal was before 2006 World Cup and the whole Theogate extravaganza

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:42 (eight years ago) link

xposts to local garda

well i'm just using the two nearest misses but when you look at the stats it really was surprisingly even.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/jun/27/england-v-germany-match-statistics

as i say germany were just a level up on precision/execution, even for them whereas lamps goal relied on a crossbar deflection and his free kick would've too.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:43 (eight years ago) link

beardsley broke so many mirrors we're still fucking paying for it basically

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:44 (eight years ago) link

after having a perfectly legit winner disallowed

Looked legit to me. I believe Campbell was said to have interfered w/the keeper.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:45 (eight years ago) link

yeah i think sven was damaging just in what he epitomises, just his utter careless greed. by the time 2006 came along it was clear everyone knew he was going and the players visibly were completely lacking in motivation. i'm not sure they've recovered since then. they qualified fairly well under capello but then reverted to that woeful lack of creativity in the tournament itself. they were really similar in the way they played in 06 and 10

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:45 (eight years ago) link

sven's results were fine, is the thing.

Capello was excellent up until squad selection for the tournament, which was an absolute disaster going on form.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:47 (eight years ago) link

cant remember was the goal legit or not, i think it was.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:49 (eight years ago) link

yeah i don't think anybody but the ref saw the alleged interference

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:50 (eight years ago) link

but under him the attitude towards england from key players changed perceptibly imo, it became something you had earned as opposed to something to be earned.

i don't see this really, not even with beckham. i felt there were real improvements in mentality during his time but they didn't stick. something went wrong between 04 and 06 but it is hard to pinpoint what...something about attitudes between sven, the press and the fans perhaps. it had an impact on the players, as carra suggests.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:51 (eight years ago) link

It's very strange how Capello totally lost it in South Africa. The rigidity, the timidity, the woeful morale and PR - like you say, he was great up to then, and even mostly got it back afterwards. Either the whole thing's random, or there's something in the English footballer's psyche that he's read totally wrong.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:53 (eight years ago) link

'not even with beckham'

The most notable exception, actually?

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:53 (eight years ago) link

the psyche was 'i'm gonna get picked whether my performance merits it or not' and unfathomably, capello reinforced it in the buildup to that tournament.

He had everything in place to tear that mentality apart and he...i dunno what he did but the players he took to that WC did not warrant it in the six months previous

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:58 (eight years ago) link

the only thing i can think re Capello last Summer is he was overcautious due to inexperience at that level...which sounds ridiculous but some similarity with Sven in 02 (except he had a much tougher group draw followed by a much easier 2nd round opponent). i'm not even sure England played better in the 02 group than in the 2010 group really.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 20:58 (eight years ago) link

didn't england beat argentina in the group in 02?

Best eng wc performance in a game i can recall, that one. Danny mills exceptional at rb

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:00 (eight years ago) link

slightly flukey penalty and holding on like crazy for 60 minutes but one of our better performances at that level true

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:01 (eight years ago) link

think we might've been wobbly against Sweden? also think Heskey might have scored at some point so maybe i hallucinated the whole tournament

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:01 (eight years ago) link

didn't england beat argentina in the group in 02?

Beckham pen right up the middle

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:02 (eight years ago) link

worst penalty i've ever seen that actually went in! 02 game vs argentina never struck me as a particularly good performance. decent enough but really not inspiring.

for a really good england wc group game performance i think you have to go all the way back to colombia in 98.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:04 (eight years ago) link

yeah that was a perf tbf, but colombia were no arg.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:06 (eight years ago) link

Heskey scored in the 3-0 victory over Denmark, iIrc

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:06 (eight years ago) link

beckham unleashed by hoddle, who's management of him throughout was a shambles

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:07 (eight years ago) link

arg weren't that great either tho dmac!

frankly i'm surprised and appalled nobody here remembered it was the 25th anniversary of this last week

http://ih3.redbubble.net/work.1163688.2.flat,550x550,075,f.hand-of-god.jpg

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:07 (eight years ago) link

there was a horrible Radio 5 programme about it with Butcher and three or four others talking in front of a live audience and being hilariously bitter about it still

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:08 (eight years ago) link

arg 02 weren't bad iirc, it was a pressure game.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:09 (eight years ago) link

yeah there was some brilliant defending from Campbell/Ferdinand in particular

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:11 (eight years ago) link

england were excellent against argentina in 98, imo. was there a disallowed goal in that game too? campbell?

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:11 (eight years ago) link

oh that rings a bell. yes England were definitely on top of that game until Becks had his moment

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:13 (eight years ago) link

england/argentina '98 I remember liking a lot excpet for Simeoni/Becks BS.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:13 (eight years ago) link

they weren't bad but they were by no means better than england (on pitch or on paper) at that point. they couldn't beat Sweden when they needed to (either).

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:13 (eight years ago) link

yeah campbell had a great header disallowed due to reflex thuggishness from shearer

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:14 (eight years ago) link

Hoddle maybe should have subbed Owen on sooner, tho

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:14 (eight years ago) link

sweden p sweet btw in 98

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:14 (eight years ago) link

What was the result against Eng? 1-1? Or was that Nigeria and Swe/Eng was 0-0?

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:15 (eight years ago) link

No, thinking '02...

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:15 (eight years ago) link

stats from eng-arg 02 fwiw

Argentina England
Corners (1st half) 2 : 2
Corners (2nd half) 7 : 1
Fouls committed 21 : 20
Caught offside 5 : 2
Shots on target 5 : 8
Shots off target 7 : 7
Hit woodwork (back into play) 0 : 1
Yellow cards 1 : 2
Red cards 0 : 0

no possession annoyingly, i'm sure arg had a fair bit more of it tho (esp. in england's half)

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:18 (eight years ago) link

owen started against argentina didn't he? he was only subbed on at the beginning of that campaign...

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:19 (eight years ago) link

yeah i thought Owen started in that match, his career-defining goal was in the first half i'm sure

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:20 (eight years ago) link

Hoddle was weird about Owen, but then Keegan was even weirder :(

sweden p sweet btw in 98

do you mean 02? they didn't make it to 98 thanks to...oh i forget.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:21 (eight years ago) link

Just watched highlights of Eng-Arg 98. Most shocking moment: seeing Paul Merson running up to take penalty. Like, what was that buffoon doing allowed near a world cup? I forget he was actually really good, now I just bracket him with Steve Claridge.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:22 (eight years ago) link

oh that's cold

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:22 (eight years ago) link

ah sure who knows rly

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:22 (eight years ago) link

Yes, all the goals were in the first half.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:23 (eight years ago) link

ha ha really no memory of merson at wc98. mind boggles. i will always remember him being england's best player on the night they went to shit in rotterdam (nov 93) not that it meant owt.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:26 (eight years ago) link

Time of Possession 65% 35% (Arg Eng) in 2002

According to http://www.englandfootballonline.com/Seas2000-10/2001-02/M0792Arg2002.html

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:26 (eight years ago) link

lol

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:27 (eight years ago) link

that feels about right but you need to experience the acid gnawing thru yr stomach to fully feel that match

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:28 (eight years ago) link

That doesn't tell the whole story though - it was backs-to-the-wall but also somehow comfortable, Argentina were never going to score that day.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:29 (eight years ago) link

simeone's goal was classy too.

my memory of the game was that it was fairly even. don't remember argentina bossing it even after becks was sent off. don't know if this is heresy as an irishman but i would really really like england to be good again someday, and to win a world cup.

x-post otm...

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:30 (eight years ago) link

it was backs-to-the-wall but also somehow comfortable

I remember feeling happy for Becks but otherwsie thought the game somewhat dull.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:32 (eight years ago) link

don't know if this is heresy as an irishman but i would really really like england to be good again someday, and to win a world cup.

REPREHENSIBLE.

Introducing the Hardline According to (jim in glasgow), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:33 (eight years ago) link

DID WOLFE TONE DIE FOR THIS??

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:34 (eight years ago) link

it was backs-to-the-wall but also somehow comfortable, Argentina were never going to score that day.

i agree i guess...nowhere near as stressful as the 98 game where they felt much more a constant threat.

just really dreading the complaints about tiredness next summer now. was forlan fucking tired last summer? schneider? iniesta? even with a midwinter break (which i do support) they still played as many games as most of the england squad. got to stop making the excuses that affect everyone.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:35 (eight years ago) link

The English players run about more y'see

Number None, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:37 (eight years ago) link

yeah chasing the facking ball

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:37 (eight years ago) link

I remember feeling happy for Becks but otherwsie thought the game somewhat dull.

yes definitely. i defended it at the time on a 'needs must' basis. just winning any which way was so important.

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:37 (eight years ago) link

don't know if this is heresy as an irishman but i would really really like england to be good again someday

I've kind of given up on England but man that game in '02 between Ireland and Germany was exciting.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:38 (eight years ago) link

Replace the ENGLAND MANAGER with a 'selection panel' made up of Gareth Southgate, Lee Dixon and Trevor Brooking.

Smells like a geography book (Chris), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:39 (eight years ago) link

but then who would hype the lads up pre-match with a stirring monologue on Agincourt, El Alamein and Enoch Powell?

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:40 (eight years ago) link

The other thing I remember about '02 was that England went out against the winners and they even scored first, well, that and the Seaman jokes.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:41 (eight years ago) link

ireland were woeful against germany tho

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:41 (eight years ago) link

highly deserved equaliser

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:42 (eight years ago) link

nicky barmby and all that, was that 98?

Better players throughout squad then, i think.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:43 (eight years ago) link

kills me that england will bypass huddlestone without ever even wondering why.

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:44 (eight years ago) link

Owen scored and then I had to go to work. I was so sure England were going to win, they were so effective and lucky in them days, and then win the tournament too. I was genuinely dumbfounded later when I saw what happened while I was stuck on the tube.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:44 (eight years ago) link

That's v Brazil in 02, breakfast kickoffs & all that.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:45 (eight years ago) link

lol work jesus what were you 12

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:45 (eight years ago) link

there was a long period of time when England would have a bunch of Barmby-esque players: good technical ability, versatile, keen, not quite the superstars of the PL but confident at international level. now it's predominantly prima donnas and future reality TV stars

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:46 (eight years ago) link

Hey we're not all still in our twenties.

Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:46 (eight years ago) link

ireland were woeful against germany tho

Mighty behemoth vs wee island folk and then at the death stalwart Keane beats the world's best keeper. I was with a bunch of Irish folks and everyone went wild. Tbh, I had pretty much given up for the last 20 to concentrate on getting a drink.

in an arrangement that mimics idiocy (Michael White), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:47 (eight years ago) link

I had to work during Ireland - Spain in 02. Probably for the best.

Number None, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:47 (eight years ago) link

yeah i think maybe that's a thing?

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:48 (eight years ago) link

we all remember big mick's big shorts

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:49 (eight years ago) link

xxxp to nv

I was in the corridor when we scored

I am in my late twenties fyi yes

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:49 (eight years ago) link

1st half v Wales was the best I've seen them play. The "Look, 4-3-3, it's how Barcelona play!" thing really seemed to work. Then they got bored and got hammered by Switzerland.

Smells like a geography book (Chris), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:50 (eight years ago) link

jesus Big Mick in them shorts with his legs splayed i had to keep covering my eyes

SB OK (Noodle Vague), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:51 (eight years ago) link

i remember him saying "fucking breeny" all goggle eyed when breen scored v saudi arabia

MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE LIVING HERE!! (Local Garda), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 21:59 (eight years ago) link

i remember the three-stage jaw drop when keane scored against germany, pythonesque but not the way you think

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 22:00 (eight years ago) link

i was just as happy about that goal as i was becks pen, no lie

blueski, Tuesday, 28 June 2011 22:07 (eight years ago) link

"C'est La Vie" as those lovely Irish popsters B*witched use to say!

is he riiiight?

Dear Projectionist (blueski), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 23:12 (eight years ago) link

wonderin tbh

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Tuesday, 28 June 2011 23:22 (eight years ago) link

On the other hand, England go above Brazil in world rankings.

Ismael Klata, Wednesday, 29 June 2011 10:04 (eight years ago) link

Ireland almost cracking the top 30. Yes!

Number None, Wednesday, 29 June 2011 10:05 (eight years ago) link

prob deservedly so

Emphatically not an xp

Chunks on strippers is the game of my frog (darraghmac), Wednesday, 29 June 2011 10:08 (eight years ago) link

The future's bright. U17 WC was on in the pub tonight. Our England beat the bloody Argies on penalties. Some Sunderland GK was the hero. Golden years, golden years. Absolutely terrible match, but I don't know what a U17 game normally looks like tbh.

oppet, Friday, 1 July 2011 00:27 (eight years ago) link

Well Germany up next and they just demolished USA so hold that thought.

pandemic, Friday, 1 July 2011 09:07 (eight years ago) link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cbq7gX1aTM

dirty cheating foreigners with their newfangled "route eins" and deflected-in punts from the d

r|t|c, Monday, 4 July 2011 22:50 (eight years ago) link

love it when teams "pay the ultimate price" for a defensive balls-up btw

r|t|c, Monday, 4 July 2011 22:53 (eight years ago) link

lollll as if any proof were necessary this is all a perpetual loop of failure that "caskey" you hear there is... yes, that's right... THE SON OF DARREN CASKEY

r|t|c, Monday, 4 July 2011 22:56 (eight years ago) link

two months pass...

3. At 07:40 28th Sep 2011, mickey6chins wrote:
I agree they should look beyond Redknapp, but Wenger? That man has been found out to be tactically inept. Ian Holloway would be my choice.
complain about this comment

r|t|c, Wednesday, 28 September 2011 15:41 (eight years ago) link

Mickey6chins

Mar 31st 2011, 8:10

Jim Carrey in Ace Ventura how to make slow mo funny

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 16:40 (eight years ago) link

Comment by mickey6chins posted Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 18:25

Quite agree Adrian, I understand if Henry come back the guy was a legend but Eduardo was not quite as deserving. Polite applause would have sufficed.

diouf est le papa du foot galsen merde lè haters (nakhchivan), Wednesday, 28 September 2011 16:41 (eight years ago) link

six months pass...

http://www.thefa.com/England/All-Teams/Players?p=348072

who better to wear the three lions

r|t|c, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:40 (seven years ago) link

http://indepth.news.sky.com/InDepth/topic/Jasper_Johns_And_Everton_F.C.

lolz

r|t|c, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:40 (seven years ago) link

kept meaning to start a "defend the fucking indefensible: EPPP" thread but that there's actually a good move

r|t|c, Friday, 6 April 2012 13:52 (seven years ago) link

two months pass...

otm

roon dmc (darraghmac), Monday, 25 June 2012 12:13 (seven years ago) link

Can we incorporate 'Tango' into the thread title in honour of the Official Football of Euro 2012?

Chris, Monday, 25 June 2012 14:33 (seven years ago) link

"It Takes Roo To Tango".

Chris, Monday, 25 June 2012 15:39 (seven years ago) link

not bad

Roo no when you've been tango'd

roon dmc (darraghmac), Monday, 25 June 2012 15:41 (seven years ago) link

30 Cristiano Ronaldo has had more shots in his first four games at Euro 2012 than the entire England squad (29) had at the tournament

20 Italy had more shots on target in their quarter-final match than England had in total in their four matches in Ukraine

88 England conceded more than twice as many shots to France, Sweden, Ukraine and Italy than they had against those teams

39 England had on average 39% of the possession in their four games, their lowest figure at a tournament since Euro 1980

29 Ashley Young and James Milner put in 29 crosses in the four games. Only three reached an England team-mate

300 England averaged 300 passes per match. The four semi-finalists have averaged 479

15 England completed only 15 passes in the 15 minutes of the second period of extra-time against Italy

18 England's most successful passing combination against Italy was the goalkeeper Joe Hart to the substitute striker Andy Carroll

115 Andrea Pirlo had more passes against England than England's four starting midfielders had against Italy

18 Mesut Ozil has created 18 chances in Germany's four games. Steven Gerrard, England's most prolific chance creator, has made six

102 England ran on average 102km in their four matches. Italy ran 7.5km further on average per match

86 England have had the most tackles in the tournament, with Steven Gerrard's 18 the most of any player

29 England have blocked the most shots at Euro 2012, 17 more than Italy, 19 more than Germany, 21 more than Portugal and 24 more than Spain

mizzell, Monday, 25 June 2012 20:37 (seven years ago) link

18 England's most successful passing combination against Italy was the goalkeeper Joe Hart to the substitute striker Andy Carroll

with success like this, who needs failure

jabba hands, Monday, 25 June 2012 20:49 (seven years ago) link

three months pass...

absolutely bored blue in the face by the amount of total shite cliché-mongering about "grassroots" and "teaching a kid to keep the ball" etc etc being bandied about by clueless morons lately. it's like there are 5/6 really facile ideas of what good development is and now every talking head is wheeling them out gormlessly.

Know how Roo feel (LocalGarda), Thursday, 11 October 2012 08:14 (seven years ago) link

I do find the process quite interesting though, how the country manages to be consistently fifteen years behind continental thinking. It's also interesting how the top clubs aren't, and how that doesn't feed into the national culture.

There were a couple of pieces about Chris Waddle last week, with him banging the drum for players going abroad to gain experience and understand the game better. I agree with him, but he and I are more old men shouting at clouds than ever.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:22 (seven years ago) link

i don't think anybody could seriously argue that England is poor at developing players, but the causes and the necessary direction are more complicated than most pundits want to address, even if they were capable. think what LG's getting at is really the same old shitty standard of punditry, a lot of the guys who are now "train our 8 year-olds to play like Barca" were denying there was even a problem 4 years ago.

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:32 (seven years ago) link

that England isn't poor at developing players, sorry

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:32 (seven years ago) link

I know, but there's no point arguing about the quality of punditry - you're more likely to get a proper overhaul of the national game first. In fact that might even be a prerequisite.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:37 (seven years ago) link

this may be a stupid question but i'm going to ask it anyway -

if stevie g, of the famous sacchi quote, grew up playing for a more *footballing* manager/side in '99 or whenever he debuted - would he still have turned out the brute force he was or would he have been more like a cesc or schweini? or even do you think he could have adapted and excelled if he went to idk barca instead of deco?

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:45 (seven years ago) link

absolutely bored blue in the face by the amount of total shite cliché-mongering about "grassroots" and "teaching a kid to keep the ball" etc etc being bandied about by clueless morons lately. it's like there are 5/6 really facile ideas of what good development is and now every talking head is wheeling them out gormlessly.

― Know how Roo feel (LocalGarda), Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:14 (1 hour ago)

yeah but do you not find it fascinating at how many top level british footballers cannot string a set of passes together under pressure? it is by all means an inane and simplified view these pundits are taking but teaching kids to be able to trap, control and move the ball under pressure IS one of the MANY things severely lacking in english football.

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:50 (seven years ago) link

iirc gerrard played under evans/houilier/rafa none of whom I'd argue were necessarily adverse to cesc type players. So if his development was a 'problem' I'd say it was one that happened earlier than when he was in his late teens. I'm not sure that I'd want him to have developed any other way than he has tbh. At his best he was a marauding force of nature, at his worst tactically undisciplined and hugely wasteful in possession, but the overall package still a big plus for LFC at least.

pandemic, Thursday, 11 October 2012 09:57 (seven years ago) link

did e/h ever try to work on his tactics and possession game tho? maybe it was a bit late for rafa and he never really tried to change it. did liverpool settle for someone who was very good right out of the gate and not push to improve him to become a step better? or do you think the damage* was done long before then?

*this is obv not the right word but you know what i mean

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:08 (seven years ago) link

that's otm, but putting the focus on gerrard as individual player isn't really the angle to look at, maybe

Randy Carol (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:12 (seven years ago) link

some key issues

  • no other country in the world afaik has over 100 full-time professional clubs
  • clubs reject a lot of kids before they're 16 predominantly on grounds of size and strength
  • kids are encouraged to play in competitive games from a v. early age
  • a lot of English fans don't like to watch teams holding onto the ball and not getting it forward at the first opportunity
  • distinct lack of children's coaches with more than rudimentary coaching quals

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:18 (seven years ago) link

so Gerrard's an example of a good product of the existing system as far as i can see, the problem is much more about what kind of players we produce other than Gerrards

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:20 (seven years ago) link

i wasn't trying to get off subject asking about gerrard btw, he just seems the figure head of the 'control the ball' basics nonsense that pundits are focussing in on when they should have a list like noodle's.

a lot of English fans don't like to watch teams holding onto the ball and not getting it forward at the first opportunity

is this true? or is it only true because teams don't hold on to the ball very well and fans associate it with problems and potential failure?

no other country in the world afaik has over 100 full-time professional clubs

i don't see how this is correlated with us having distinctly LESS coaches than other countries and less coaches who know what they are doing - surely these places should be the breeding ground for those who go out into the community, invite to spend a week w/ their local u10s or something etc.

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:25 (seven years ago) link

i... think so? Focusing on the faults of the top end players isn't a true reflection of the system- particularly as many of those players really only excel, it seems to me at times, through exceptional prowess at things that can't really be attributed to coaching or technical training- maybe that's unfair, to idk lampard and ferdinand, and i'm overfocusing on gerrard myself.

Randy Carol (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:27 (seven years ago) link

xp- re: slow build up- english football fans are addicted to drama, and they demand it from their players afaict

Randy Carol (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:29 (seven years ago) link

yeah but otoh stoke and west ham are the most boring teams in the league for a reason and west ham were losing paying fans by the ton last season as they got more bigsamish

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:37 (seven years ago) link

West Ham are one of those clubs with an alleged history of playing cultured football. i think there's a difference between fans who attend regularly, are paying silly money for a ticket and therefore wanna be entertained to some extent and fans who rarely attend, predominantly care about the result and probably care less about the quality of the football that achieves it. but i can imagine the good citizens of Stoke enjoying nothing more than 90 minutes of gladiatorial savagery once a fortnight.

the thing about the ridiculous number of pro clubs is that there's a much larger pool of employment for effective but low-skilled journeyman, and the development staff at a lot of those clubs are probably much more interested in finding lads who are gonna be the next lumpen stopper/target man than watching slight 10 year-olds fannying around trying to be Messi. something about having clubs so far down the tiers where winning is so essential has a distorting effect on our game i think.

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:46 (seven years ago) link

i can understand that

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:53 (seven years ago) link

I think that's a really good point. And loath as I am to pin anything on the influx of foreigners, it's undoubtedly true that they're filling the roles where you do have a bit of licence to play unparalysed by fear.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 11 October 2012 10:54 (seven years ago) link

a lot of English fans don't like to watch teams holding onto the ball and not getting it forward at the first opportunity

Undoubtedly true. George Graham's Arsenal side post 91 earned the 'boring Arsenal' tag for exactly this reason, despite winning the Cup Winner's Cup and the FA/League Cup double in the process.

passive-aggressive display name (aldo), Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:03 (seven years ago) link

wait are you making it seem like that arsenal side were bastions of possession football?

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:10 (seven years ago) link

They concentrated on defence and holding onto the ball, with Ian Wright as the sole front man, and mainly had 1-0 wins. In fact, the season they won the title the second goal vs Liverpool came right at the end because attacking was even by then becoming 'not the Arsenal way'. And it was definitely unpopular, as the terrace chants testify and is still an accusation.

passive-aggressive display name (aldo), Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:24 (seven years ago) link

xpost I recall Graham's Arsenal being a compress the game at the halfway line - pass back to the keeper - ping it forward to Ian Wright - score a goal and defend like the very devil kind of boring rather than a "ooh look at that tedious tiki taka" kind of boring.

I am not sure about the lower leagues being geared to producing garden-variety cloggers: there's certainly some of that but it seems to me the lower leagues produce quite a lot of tidy-but-not-inspired fit blokes. The problem English football has, it seems to me, is not generating enough pretty competent players but in generating ten or so really effing brilliant ones and a further thirty bloody good ones behind them. I don't think you can blame the lower division clubs for that - as soon as anyone begins to look like they might be talented they get spirited away to the swamps of the Premiership youth teams anyway.

Having said that, you definitely get some clubs in Leagues One and Two whose whole philosophy around a team full of big fit lads, but it's by no means all.

Tim, Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:27 (seven years ago) link

Hmm. I think these are, to a degree, issues of semantics. Holding the ball, stifling the midfield are definitely part of the same thing. The Borussia Dortmund side that knocked Man U out of the European Cup in 96/97 played a choking game which saw them badly criticised in the English press and to my mind Paul Lambert ran that show - but he always maintained he did it after seeing Dunga do it to great effect for the Brazilian national side.

passive-aggressive display name (aldo), Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:36 (seven years ago) link

a lot of English fans don't like to watch teams holding onto the ball and not getting it forward at the first opportunity

It's hard not to be impatient at games. I like the ball-on-the-deck passing game as much as the next guy but sometimes you just need some cunt to put a ball in the box.
I prefer to see 3-7 passes with pace and directness despite it often breaking down to watching Barca/Spain fuck around for 40 passes 40 yards from goal. I prefer both to the (perceived but not always true) Stoke/Big Sam/Crazy Gang model of getting the ball into oppo territory asap by any means possible, preferably without the use of such luxuries as midfielders.

I am the one and (onimo), Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:37 (seven years ago) link

Holding the ball, stifling the midfield are definitely part of the same thing.

maybe its the waitrose shopper in me but these are two totally different things! they are only connected in something like neanderthal english football where the likes of cesc or alonso or scholes started passing sideways and the opposition midfield got confused and angry

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:48 (seven years ago) link

Paul Lambert's career trajectory is the weirdest thing; but it's notable that each of his four clubs reached its modern peak with him in the side.

Ismael Klata, Thursday, 11 October 2012 11:53 (seven years ago) link

absolutely bored blue in the face by the amount of total shite cliché-mongering about "grassroots" and "teaching a kid to keep the ball" etc etc being bandied about by clueless morons lately. it's like there are 5/6 really facile ideas of what good development is and now every talking head is wheeling them out gormlessly.

Just because a lot of clueless morons are jumping on the bandwagon doesn't make it not true. But there are other things that are poor in English football - the first touch of a lot of young English players just isn't that good. And anyone who's seen an England team basically running up and down in straight lines will know they aren't really taught about movement off the ball properly.

If there wasn't a growing awareness of this sort of stuff then Liverpool wouldn't have taken a punt on Brendan Rodgers.

Matt DC, Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:01 (seven years ago) link

i think there's a world of difference between tikitaka and graham's arsenal passing it back to seaman all game, just as there's a world of difference between direct football as practiced by eg man utd '99 rampaging on the counter attack down the wings and 'lump it' big sam tactics.

Randy Carol (darraghmac), Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:01 (seven years ago) link

I prefer to see 3-7 passes with pace and directness

this is why Dortmund are so good to watch. Poor Shinji :(

Number None, Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:01 (seven years ago) link

as i said before it's not just a case of "why can't we play like Barca?"

there's a lot of points inbetween hoof and run and hold the ball in your own half for 89 minutes a match, but i think a lot of the skill deficiencies in training very young kids and selecting kids for club's youth programmes are a result of an adherence to playing "exciting", direct football without fully understanding how that comes about. we've had lightning quick wingers who can't cross a ball since at least the 70s, we've had a surfeit of "good" players who can't retain possession in an advanced position for at least as long.

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:12 (seven years ago) link

in other words it mightn't be the worst thing in the world to train 8 year-olds to play tiki-taka even if you've no intention of playing that way at adult level. train kids to play like adults and by the time they're at professional level they're likely v. limited in their actual skill sets. yes, we produce some good players, but it's hard to think of many international class Englanders over the last 3 decades whose game didn't centre on their physicality, whether that be speed or stamina.

thread lock holiday (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:15 (seven years ago) link

Well of course. We can keep the national identity of a fast pace, ruthless game. But we should be trying to make it so we play that style with guys who pick the right pass as opposed to the lumped gamble and can understand the tactics of why they do things on and off the ball. Germany aren't playing tiki-taka, they are playing German football. They are just playing German football extremely well.

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:16 (seven years ago) link

mine was an xpost to the 3-7 passes bit. to noodle i say, wasn't there a big todo (esp when southgate got called up) about kids on the whole preferring to play passing, less competitive games and its the parents/coaches who choose to do the other, results based game? and yeah it would make a hell of a difference if we changed the idea of what we want from dropping kids off on a sunday morning to learn something together, to think about what they are doing etc. instead of just jumping into each other and big means good and thats cool because maybe one of those kids will possibly maybe be looked at and then forgotten again by their local league 1 side

a hoy hoy, Thursday, 11 October 2012 12:20 (seven years ago) link

i'd love to see an article where someone asks idk the england team for an honest assessment of their coach at randomvillage terriors u9s and if they had any impact on them or