Batman Begins: The Thread

vigilante: One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

Superman killed, too!

I didn't see it. From the trailer I assumed that the killer he's looking for is actually himself or some lame twist like that but I don't know anything else about it.

Also, did you miss the bit where we were specifically talking about THE PUNISHER and the rather ludicrous idea that he's supposed to be a heroic character?)

Yes. I thought your comment was still in reference to Batman. Still, I think it's difficult to draw a line when American culture has idolized so many murderous characters.

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Superman, Spiderman,

Yes.

Batman, the cowboy, the war hero,

Wrong!

Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones

Grey area.

(Superman and Spiderman are both vigilantes. See JJ Jameson's attacks on Spiderman)

Exactly. My point is that I don't think simply because a character is a killer or a vigilante that you can categorize him as an antihero. It all depends on how the character is portrayed and that can vary wildly for the same character from story to story.

Heh heh heh heh heh.

Still, I think it's difficult to draw a line when American culture has idolized so many murderous characters.

Is Charles Manson a hero? Ted Bundy? Jeffrey Dahmer? Patrick Bateman? Hannibal Lecter?

Are you sure you aren't confusing infamy with idolatry?

I hate when that happens. Beards should be made of hair.

Jesus?

A: I mistakenly thought Dan was doing that because I didn't realize he was specifically referencing the Punisher.

B: Somewhere on this thread, I seem to recall somebody making the claim that Batman is never truly a hero because his vigilantism is a core part of his character.

Oh, GWB.

is it Dennis Kucinich?

so walter were you ever going to back up your remarks (ie. SHOW ME)

Which one specifically?

Of course Batman's character can be in flux. That's why we're all free to look at a certain Batman and say: hey, I don't like that Batman. He doesn't represent what Batman means to me. That's not my Batman.

Who Batman is and what he means is the accumulation of all of the comics you listed above, every TV and movie representation ever made, and whatever crazy fantasies little kids make up about Batman when they run around the playground with a cape on. None of these are right or wrong.

STIPEMAN!

(the MLK thing is a bit of a diversion - I agree w/whoever said that real-life "heroes" are demonstrably different from fictional ones, and that they hew to different standards. and I stick by my assertion that, especially when it comes to fiction, violence seems to be a necessary component of the hero's identity. I think the key question we're wrestling with on this thread is how that violence is justified, to what degree, and to what end. obviously I think Batman is conflicted and not a straight-up fascist idol, at least as far as how he's portrayed in Batman Begins)

(as for protesting and MLK's legacy: blount this is probably worthy of a whole other thread, but many of the examples you cite - the war, Roberts' nomination, the anti-gay legislation - those protests were ignored by the media and by the political establishment. the tactic has been completely marginalized. I participated in a lot of anti-war stuff leading up to the invasion, and it accomplished nothing aside from clearing my conscience a little bit. at least I can say I tried. but do peaceful protests have any currency politically or socially or culturally? I would say not at all.)

someone is not the same as anyone

i cld be convinced by a well done fascist tendency reading cuz im almost paranoid abt tendencies and believe everyone has em, born w or born into. so i think here, where i guess its obvious to certain spectators, tho i didnt notice them by name, that energy wd be better spent on where it is hid, altho here im drawing on i think an implication by walter upthread

again, i only skimmed, but if this is the case, im disappointed that yall havent considered the inherent? difference btw comix and motion pictures. blount kind of alluded to it w, why does the villain always die in the batman movies? but i think theres also much more basic divides, drawing and photography etc, that are much more impt than deviations, and that, in fact, connect back to fascism, or whatever less uh loaded term im eager to see as a substitute