Batman Begins: The Thread

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I don't think their primary audience is kids anymore.

We are all kids at heart in an infantilized culture.

― Goo goo WAH MY DIAPER IS FULL (Ned), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:53 (eighteen years ago) link

The diaper of my culture overfloweth.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link

I think that being a vigilante on a murderous revenge rampage is kind of an elementary, no-brainer definition of an antihero!

Except that there's this place called the USA where many people believe that's the elementary definition of every hero!

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:25 (eighteen years ago) link

"many people"

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess when people idolize Scarface the idea of an antihero just doesn't mean much to me anymore. And on the scale of antiheroes, Batman's antis are pretty wimpy.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

THAT'S WHY WE LOVE HIM.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

walter how old are you that you can remember a pre-muni america?

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:56 (eighteen years ago) link

"every hero"

I can't even tell if that's hyperbole or idiocy.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess when people idolize Scarface the idea of an antihero just doesn't mean much to me anymore.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:04 (eighteen years ago) link

idiobole

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:06 (eighteen years ago) link

So Batman Begins is basically Watchmen, with Ra's as Ozymandias and Batman as Rorschach, only this time Rorschach is a little more grounded and qucker on the uptake and has a lot of money.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:10 (eighteen years ago) link

batman's more niteowl in this one

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:14 (eighteen years ago) link

good call.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:17 (eighteen years ago) link

What are the archetypal American heroes (anti- or otherwise)? Superman, Batman, Spiderman, the cowboy, the gangster, the private eye, the war hero, Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones...? Who else? Where does Batman fall on this spectrum? How many of these hero figures are non-violent? If you define antihero as anyone who is murderous or a vigilante then who is left as a hero? To me an antihero is a character who is weak, cowardly, criminal, a failure, etc. Batman is portrayed as an antihero to a certain degree in BB but in terms of his overall place in the culture I think he's regarded as a hero.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Scarecrow = "evil" Rorschach?

(xpost: Is the protagonist of "Memento" a hero or an antihero? Also, did you miss the bit where we were specifically talking about THE PUNISHER and the rather ludicrous idea that he's supposed to be a heroic character?)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:21 (eighteen years ago) link

If you define antihero as anyone who is murderous or a vigilante then who is left as a hero? - out of your group? Superman, Batman, Spiderman, the cowboy, the war hero, Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:24 (eighteen years ago) link

not wonder woman though

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Hahahaha

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

And before we enter Semantic Junction -

vigilante: One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

Superman killed, too!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:27 (eighteen years ago) link

(xpost: Is the protagonist of "Memento" a hero or an antihero?

I didn't see it. From the trailer I assumed that the killer he's looking for is actually himself or some lame twist like that but I don't know anything else about it.

Also, did you miss the bit where we were specifically talking about THE PUNISHER and the rather ludicrous idea that he's supposed to be a heroic character?)

Yes. I thought your comment was still in reference to Batman. Still, I think it's difficult to draw a line when American culture has idolized so many murderous characters.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

uhh... really? I can't recall a single instance of Superman killing anybody. Its kinda a hallmark of his character that he doesn't kill.

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

If you define antihero as anyone who is murderous or a vigilante then who is left as a hero? - out of your group?

Superman, Spiderman,

Yes.

Batman, the cowboy, the war hero,

Wrong!

Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones

Grey area.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I think we're trying to draw the hero/anti-hero line a little too clearly here. I mean, the only country I can think of with an archetypal pacifist "hero" is India.

(Superman and Spiderman are both vigilantes. See JJ Jameson's attacks on Spiderman)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

(I mean, I think to some degree all cultures equate violence w/heroism. ie. one who is "brave" enough to do what's "necessary" and risk life and limb etc.)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:31 (eighteen years ago) link

superman's gonna kill lois whenever he gets around to fucking her (redefining 'beat that pussy up')(TUOMAS WHAT IS YR TAKE ON 'WAIT (THE WHISPER SONG)?)

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean, the only country I can think of with an archetypal pacifist "hero" is India.

Exactly. My point is that I don't think simply because a character is a killer or a vigilante that you can categorize him as an antihero. It all depends on how the character is portrayed and that can vary wildly for the same character from story to story.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:33 (eighteen years ago) link

I didn't see it. From the trailer I assumed that the killer he's looking for is actually himself or some lame twist like that but I don't know anything else about it.

Heh heh heh heh heh.

Still, I think it's difficult to draw a line when American culture has idolized so many murderous characters.

Is Charles Manson a hero? Ted Bundy? Jeffrey Dahmer? Patrick Bateman? Hannibal Lecter?

Are you sure you aren't confusing infamy with idolatry?

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:33 (eighteen years ago) link

Back in the late 80s or possibly very, very early 90s (like maybe Jan. 2/90) Superman faced a trio of Kryptonian Phantom Zone villains who had just killed everybody on (a parallel) Earth (in a pocket universe). So he killed them.
Then he grew a beard out of remorse.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

the only country I can think of with an archetypal pacifist "hero" is India. there's also america shakey (hint: not wonder woman).

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

Then he grew a beard out of remorse.

I hate when that happens. Beards should be made of hair.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:37 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost
Dan, I was referring more to indian-killing cowboys and old west vigilantes.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

simply because a character is a killer or a vigilante that you can categorize him as an antihero. - show me where someone does this

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:38 (eighteen years ago) link

there's also america shakey (hint: not wonder woman).

Jesus?

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I dunno blount, MLKs cultural stature seems to have diminished/been diluted over time.... whereas Gandhi is the revered father of the country, on the rupee, etc.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

right religion! hint: he's american

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Ant Man!

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:40 (eighteen years ago) link

show me where someone does this

A: I mistakenly thought Dan was doing that because I didn't realize he was specifically referencing the Punisher.

B: Somewhere on this thread, I seem to recall somebody making the claim that Batman is never truly a hero because his vigilantism is a core part of his character.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link

right religion! hint: he's american

Oh, GWB.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:42 (eighteen years ago) link

an American Christian pacifist archetype? sorry, if you aren't thinking of MLK, you got me. Pacifism is completely marginalized and ridiculed in this country - its not even part of the cultural dialogue at all most of the time, so saying there's some heavy-duty American hero archetype that's non-violent seems sorta specious to me, but maybe I'm missing something...

is it Dennis Kucinich?

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:43 (eighteen years ago) link

JIMMY CARTER!

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:43 (eighteen years ago) link

right, forty years ago: jailed, tapped, highly controversial, today: national holiday, national sainthood - stature's definitely been diminished!

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, I see your point but I think there's a pretty big divide between real life heroes and fictional archetypes. We allow our real life heroes to be much more wimpy than we would ever accept in a fictional character.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:45 (eighteen years ago) link

kucinich is a racist so maybe he is heroic (according to walter right?)

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm joking of course, I don't mean to call MLK a wimp.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:46 (eighteen years ago) link

so walter were you ever going to back up your remarks (ie. SHOW ME)

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

dood, nobody takes MLK seriously as a role model for pacifist social action anymore, and you know it. Anybody professing non-violence is laughed off the stage.

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:47 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost
are you confusing me for Tuomas? (re: the racist remark)

so walter were you ever going to back up your remarks (ie. SHOW ME)

Which one specifically?

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:48 (eighteen years ago) link

wimpy fictional heroes: napoleon dynamite, hawkeye pierce, benjamin braddock, max fischer, PETER PARKER

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:49 (eighteen years ago) link

simply because a character is a killer or a vigilante that you can categorize him as an antihero. - show me where someone does this

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:50 (eighteen years ago) link

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