Guns n Roses: Critical Rehab

Guns n Roses were such a special band..Fuck all Van Halen and Slayer...
They're lookin' like shits with instruments, their music is too similar to other bands..nuthin' really excitin'...

haha

Haven't read the thread, and somebody has probably already pointed this out, but the assumptions behind it are pretty confused. For whatever it's worth, this is better than Sabbath or Slayer (and probably Zeppelin, and maybe Metallica) ever did in P&J:

The 1988 Pazz & Jop Critics Poll

Albums
26. Guns N' Roses: Appetite for Destruction (Geffen) 190 (14) *

Singles
3. Guns N' Roses: "Sweet Child o' Mine" (Geffen) 30
13. Guns N' Roses: "Welcome to the Jungle"/"Mr. Brownstone" (Geffen) 20

[They were written in about as "just another Sunset Strip hair metal band" for maybe six months in 1987, as I recall -- before the songs wound up on MTV and the radio, and the album started to sell. But to pretend "everybody" -- meaning critics -- disliked them back then is the real revisionism here. And right, metal mags kinda loved them from the git-go.)

Appetite was 26 out of 40. Led Zeppelin IV was 30 out of 30.

yeah my assumptions here were wrong

I have grown to really kinda love them as icons...still think Appetite has maybe three good songs

I'm just the opposite - Appetite (which I thought had three good songs the week it came out -- and "Mr. Brownstone" was one of them! -- though I grew to like most of the rest pretty quickly, and loved all of it within a few years) is my favorite rock album of the past quarter century, and I care about them less and less as human beings as time goes on. Haven't played either Use Your Illusion (which I always thought were pretty spotty) for years, and can't imagine when I will again, though I doubt I'll ever sell my copies. Have exactly ZERO interest in Chinese Democracy -- In fact, I kind of hope it doesn't come out in my lifetime, sincee if it does, somebody will probably want me to write about it, which means I'll have to have an opinion about it. (Still like both Lies and Spaghetti Incident a whole lot, though.)

This cassette didn't leave my walkman for years. I delivered a lot of papers while Axl was screeching about smack and porn.

wait, me and Chuck are looking at things from different angles? Unimaginable! :)

Did you get that new-ish book by their photographer, Chuck? It's fascinating stuff for a whole lot of reasons - the dude saved the setlists from pretty much all their gigs: it seems to be the case that they wrote pretty much all their stuff in one fast blur of activity before the Geffen signing, and, having exhausted that stuff by the end of Use Your Illusion, collapsed/threw in the towel (nb this is my reading, not what the book explicitly contends)

Nah, didn't get that one -- or if I did, it went right into the donation pile (which maybe it shouldn't have, judging from what you're saying, but that's the way I roll with 90% of rock books, and 99% of rock photo books, that the mailman brings.)

appetite is a fantastic record and eclipses by a long margin anything they coughed out afterwards. i don't think the argument that it has only three good songs can really stand up; every track is focused with good old fashioned guitar based hook. arguably one of the most iconic opening riffs in history, and the musical influences behind the record are extremely vital and channeled in ambitious and exciting ways.

I've always believed GnR stop writing top notch material when Izzy left the band, which was during the making of Use Your Illusion, I think.

I don't know if they promo'd out the book or not, I ordered a copy - it's called "Reckless Road" and the url for it is http://www.recklessroad.com/ - worth looking into, not beautifully written or anything but as a documentation of that before-it-went-completely-worldwide moment it's pretty great

but, important caveat probably, I'm not on anybody's book promo list so I don't see a lot of rock books photo or otherwise, and I may be easily impressed

I really, really like the Chinese Democracy tracks (whatever iteration of the "final" versions they may be) I have in my iPod. As I've said before, they sound exactly nothing like any previous Guns N' Roses work and a whole fuckin' lot like particularly hard-rockin' J-pop. If you stripped out Axl's vocals and replaced him with Ayumi Hamasaki, the songs would be just as awesome. I really hope the album comes out someday, and I hope it sounds like these six songs.

http://i27.tinypic.com/160zvuv.jpg

As I've said before, they sound exactly nothing like any previous Guns N' Roses work and a whole fuckin' lot like particularly hard-rockin' J-pop.

yeah this is a great call - they have that by-committee feel. (My friend Tom on Japanese pop in the eighties: "It's like a position paper about what popular music is like.") I happen to kind of like that - I thought "Better" was a wonderful song.

"For whatever it's worth, this is better than Sabbath or Slayer (and probably Zeppelin, and maybe Metallica) ever did in P&J"

Who gives a flying fuck? GnR areen't fit to do those band's laundry. The post above is correct, when Stradlin left the band, they were toast. I got that straight from Slash's autobiog, which I picked up in LAX. Pretty entertaining read.

i certainly wouldnt let slash do my laundry - maybe axl

Er, my post had nothing to do with how "good" those bands were (though I'd personally take GnR over Slayer or Metallica); it had to do with how much critics liked them, which was what the subject of this thread was to begin with. (And to my ears, they started going downhill as soon as Adler left.)

Phil's post makes those Chinese Democracy tracks sound interesting, maybe, though I've never really connected with J-Pop. And I just can't see going out of my way to actually track down the songs and hear them. If they somehow land in lap someday, maybe I'll listen to them and wind up liking them, who knows. (I've "heard" a couple of the supposed CD tracks, usually when somebody was all "you really really really need to listen to this," which just added a no-fun air of "important to have an opinion" obligation to an already dire situation.)

So when is somebody going to start a thread about Motley Crue revisionism? To me, they're the real dime-a-dozen hair-hack band who were widely acknowledged as such at the time, but over the decades have somehow turned "important", thanks to tabloid stuff I'll never have any interest in.

Sorry chuck, your're right, the thread's about their rep. with critics.

Crue did one good album, then really lost it. The same could definitely be said about GnR.

According to Slash, Adler made the rest of the band seem like the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. They had no choice but to let him go.

fuck that lies is great and the use yr illusions are pretty awzom in their own way

Izzy was GnR's tether to vintage Stone boogie.

The illusions blow

xpost

u blow... whores!

1st Crue album is pretty great - Chuck you gotta rep for "Live Wire," don'tcha? that's a terrific track - and I have affection for Shout at the Devil but yeah, I think Crue got big mainly by sticking around and maybe by being good live (I don't know - never saw 'em). But does anybody really say "they were a great band" as people do about GnR?

So when is somebody going to start a thread about Motley Crue revisionism? To me, they're the real dime-a-dozen hair-hack band who were widely acknowledged as such at the time, but over the decades have somehow turned "important", thanks to tabloid stuff I'll never have any interest in.

this is true-ish, yeah, but I think they're more infamous than important -- the tabloid stuff (and the justifiably popular tell-all book) probably helped keep their profile high during the years they were making flop comeback attempts and squabbling and doing horrible side projects. but it's not like anyone more than before is pretending that Dr. Feelgood is as good as Appetite, or that their other albums are by and large worth a shit. I think they just happen to be the one hair metal band with their shit together enough now to capitalize on nu-hair bands like Buckcherry and Hinder and do something like this "Cruefest" nonsense. (xpost, what John said)

omg the dirt is so good

illusion II taken as a separate entity from illusion I isn't a bad record really.
about half of it is obviously pointless but i'll stand up for the first 3 tracks, breakdown, and locomotive at least

the first crue album is indeed pretty good. 'live wire' is probably the purest hard rock statement they ever made. then they had a few more great singles over the years with 'looks that kill' springing specifically to mind. 'primal scream', a latter day number in terms of vince neil's first tenure with the band, was surprisingly excellent live.

but yeah, even the crue's better material doesn't come close to stacking up to GNR in their prime

"u blow... whores!"

You really got me good there, wow

ty ty

The first two Crüe albums are pretty damn good. The respect they're afforded twenty-five years past their (artistic, not commercial) peak, though, baffles me. That Red, White & Crue best-of they put out a few years ago was one of the most starkly bifurcated albums I've ever seen - one disc I'd like to listen to all the way through, and one disc I wouldn't listen to a single song from on a dare.

I bought the two Illusions discs and listened to them all the way through for the first time last year, and there are a hell of a lot of good, ambitious hard rock songs on there. If you go in looking for any trace of the band that made Appetite, you're an idiot. But taken on their own merits, they're some of the best mainstream rock of the early '90s (I would take the Illusions albums over Nevermind without blinking).

"Don't Cry" is tremendous

But much of the Illusions material was in the setlist before Appetite was even tracked! it's very much the same band, just with more money.

...which is why I'm recommending the photobook - that's how I learned that some of the big hits from Illusion I & II were as old as the band

That's true. Don't Cry is like the first song they did together. .

(I would take the Illusions albums over Nevermind without blinking).

Yeah, me too. Like I said above, I think they're really spotty, but that doesn't mean they don't have some good songs. And like I also said above, I still love Lies and Spaghetti Incident. But I still don't think much of that stuff touches Appetite, and the point of my Adler comment is that, when he left, the music turned way clunkier and more stiff -- it really lost its dance quotient, which was the first thing that set it apart for me.

Also, I don't hate Crue (I may actually even prefer their late '80s hits to their early '80s albums, matter of fact), and I'm not suggesting critics think they were on the level of GnR. I just think there were scores of better hair-metal bands out there, and I find it kind of depressing that their admittedly well-timed self-promotion efforts have been so successful with journalists who I can't imagine cared about the band in the first place.

Ron "Bumblefoot" Thal (Born September 25, 1969 in Brooklyn New York City, NY), is an American guitarist, songwriter and producer. He is currently a member of Guns N' Roses, playing co-lead guitar with Robin Finck

He got the name "Bumblefoot" from the bacterial infection, which he learned about while helping his wife review for her veterinary exams. Vigier Guitars later made Ron "The Vigier Bumblefoot Guitar", a custom guitar which is shaped like a foot, painted like a bumblebee and has decorative wings that extend from the body when activated by the tremolo bar. This was presented to Ron in January 1998 at the NAMM convention in Los Angeles.

Bumblefoot joined Guns N' Roses in mid-2006, replacing the departed Buckethead. He made his live debut with the band at the Hammerstein Ballroom in New York City on May 12, 2006. They have since toured Europe, North and Central America,Oceania, and Japan. It has been confirmed that Bumblefoot will also appear on the band's new album, Chinese Democracy, despite the fact that it has been in the process of recording since 1994, long before he joined. The album has no scheduled release date, but it has been confirmed that recording has been completed as of April 03, 2007.

If Use Your Illusion was a 45 minute album it would be great. Don't Damn Me, Civil War, those are some of their best songs.

There's just way too much of it, and some of the most egregious examples of filler ever. Also the fact that Nevermind came out around the same time didn't help.

xp (Adler leaving also corresponds, at least in my mind, with Axl's high register losing its edge. He just doesn't sing as gorgeously on the post-Appetite or at least post-Lies records. This really affects the ballads for me -- including "Don't Cry," which has never blown me away like the earlier ballads do.) (My favorite '90s GnR track, by far, is their cover of UK Subs' "Down on the Farm," on The Spaghetti Incident, fwiw.)

Since I was a little dude I've loved both debut's from the Crue and GnR, respectively. But for diff reasons. Appetite is a very historical album. It was modern and hip, yes, but the band really understood what made classic rock move. They knew their Johnny Thunders, Aerosmith, Stones, Chuck Berry, Eddie Cochran, etc.

TFRL, in contrast, is raw primitivism. Although it's trashy glam/punk, the album's quirks (that production is so buzz-saw cheap) make it feel like a private press record or heavy metal demo tape (which it kind of was, originally). It's one of those records that fans of fucked up music can appreciate. Appetite, was too good to be appreciated that way.

From Buckethead to Bumblefoot. You could have a game thinking of the next name for the slot. Brokendick? Baglady? (Let's get a woman in here!)

I would take the Illusions albums over Nevermind without blinking

that's a feasible enough parallel to draw since i have memories of listening to these records when they were fairly new in heavy rotation around exactly the same time

but nevermind has totally held up better for mine. the illusions seem to be forever tied to the bombast and self-aware rock posturing that characterised the band's shows around the time of the records' releases. axl's lyrics just seemed too intent on ramming home, to the point of overstating, the exclusiveness of his rockstar lifestyle in strangely pseudo-intellectual ways. we weren't dealing with somebody that people could really make a genuine connection with, but rather somebody whose stardom and public profile became a source of expression for the staging of bizarre and convoluted battles with personal and external demons, that no one else, let alone the listener, could get a grip on. i guess i'm thinking specifically of inter-song rants like that 'don't forget to call my lawyer...' spurt on 'you could be mine'. i mean, what the hell was all that about?

i guess, nevermind with its un-self conscious ability to tap into the hearts and souls of disenfranchised youth, made more of a tangible connection with the public, and when i listen to it today, i can still hear a lot of what made it so vital and relevant. i really think it's a timeless classic that is presently taking a temporary extended pause due to having been solidy overplayed throughout the entire 90s. but i still play it pretty regularly and find remnants of the spark that really kicked my ass all those years ago.

Side note: I shifted a lot of my love for both debut albums (Crue and GnR) to Hanoi Rocks' debut a few years back. I had never even heard the first HR album until I was 30! But holy crap. To me, it's the original link between classic rock, glam, heavy metal, bubblegum and punk. The Crue and GnR were obviously listening to Hanoi Rocks a ton.

yeah i bought some hanoi rocks stuff after GnR kept repping them. but it's a "the students have become the teachers" thing for me....appetite murders every hanoi record i've heard (so like three out of whatever HR records)

and, hey, just so you know, hanoi rocks have put out three pretty good albums in the last five years.