TS: sci-fi vs. fantasy!

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I mean "The Cold Equations" is supposedly one of the pinnacles of hard science-fiction, but it's a total joke science-wise (and mostly manipulative sexist tripe story-wise.) A two year old could devise a way to lighten the ship's load so they can land the damn ship (HELLO THROW THE RADIO OUT THE AIRLOCK) but do they do that? Not at all! They just wring every bit of drama they can out of throwing this girl into space and make some nonsensical point about how science is harsh mistress which cannot be bargained with. Whatever.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 16:24 (eighteen years ago) link

Thinking of authors not mentioned, China Mieville should get a nod, but I'd defer to Martin Skidmore to talk about said writer more knowledgeably.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 16:26 (eighteen years ago) link

That Orson Scott Card piece is as lame as Ultimate Iron Man.

Jordan (Jordan), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 16:30 (eighteen years ago) link

my adolescent self, the contrarian, would choose fantasy over SF by a mile. now, although i havent read any of either genre in years, I would probably choose SF as I'd probably get more out of a good SF book if i read it now.

AaronK (AaronK), Tuesday, 3 May 2005 16:31 (eighteen years ago) link

I've read a lot of sci fi, but none that's touched me like Mervyn Peake. He writes some of the best sentences I've seen in 20th century literature.

moonglum, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:27 (eighteen years ago) link

Peake's a wonder and a half. Got into him via Moorcock.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Ned Raggett - great point about overdramatizing the mundane in future
worlds. That was exactly Tarkovsky's criticism of 2001, and why the original
Solaris is such an amazing movie.

shieldforyoureyes, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 00:48 (eighteen years ago) link

The point about SF routing its weirdness in scientific explanation may distinguish it from fantasy in some senses but I always wonder how useful it is in saying anything particularly insightful about the writing. To take the extreme point Ned raised early on, writers like Brooks or Jordan imply that their otherwise generic (as in typical of fantasy) universes are our own futures after some great global scientific/military cataclysm, but this doesn't change the work meaningfully (another way of looking at this: are all SF with some sort of religious or metaphysical component secretly fantasy novels? Is the Left Behind series SF, Fantasy, both or neither?)

More generally though, you could look at something like Le Guin's The Left Hand of Darkness, which is SF, but whose core value could as easily have been recognised in a Fantasy setting. Whereas I don't think the same could be said of The Dispossessed (or, vice versa, transplanting the "core" of the Earthsea novels into a SF setting).

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:03 (eighteen years ago) link

In defense of "The Cold Equations," it was published in 1954, when rocketry was brand new and the US was lucky to put escape velocity on a golf ball, and still years away from putting people up there. Sure, it might have been a lapse in imagination not to project a future when payloads didn't have to be calculated down to the gram, but a lot SF is more about the present than the future. (Esp. mid-50s to mid-70s.) I think Godwin was just saying "space travel is coming, and it's going to be exciting, but it's also going to kill some people. Get ready." I can't fault the story.

Curious George (Bat Chain Puller) (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:30 (eighteen years ago) link

a lot SF is more about the present than the future. (Esp. mid-50s to mid-70s.)

Oh, I don't think that's changed at all! How much modern SF reflects preoccupations of the now, after all? Or projections of same? The parameters have changed and will change, and the biases current will be all the more evident with distance as we look back.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 01:47 (eighteen years ago) link

In my view science fiction becomes timeless when it's about the human condition. The less it is about people and the more it is about technology and war and spaceships, the greater chance it has of dating quickly. In my view.

Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:47 (eighteen years ago) link

But transporters!

Actually here's a question for both you and Tim -- are there notable sf/fantasy/imaginative writers from your neck of the woods? I'm sure there are obvious names I'm missing, but alas the only one coming to mind is Nevil Shute for On the Beach, though that's no bad thing per se.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:54 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm out of touch with local talent, but the following are pretty well regarded, for one reason or another:

- Isobelle Carmody
- Ian Irvine
- Sean Williams

Science fiction I don't know, but recently a fantastic short-story book was released, featuring dozens of Australian authors over the past 50 years.

Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 03:58 (eighteen years ago) link

Ah here it is.

Autumn Almanac (Autumn Almanac), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 04:02 (eighteen years ago) link

has this been mentioned here?

http://www.moviehole.net/news/5547.html

Mr Film Fantastic, Robert Rodriguez, looks set to helm the next "Conan" sequel.

The Arnold Fans has discovered that John Milius, who has been trying to get a third "Conan" film off the ground for longer than gas has fuelled cars, has been given his walking papers - and that Rodriguez, currently spinning a lot of bank with "Sin City", is the Barbarian's new pop.

"John Milius had a 5 year contract to be on the WB lot, however, after WB gave Conan away to Rodriguez, they decided they did not need Milius and kicked him off the lot without renewing his contract", says the site.

Milius had been working on "King Conan" - which tells the story of the Barbarian and his son - for quite a while. It's believed he recently talked to wrestler Triple-H about filling Arnold Schwarzenneger's shoes, upon discovering Arnold's too busy playing Governor.

It's not known whether Rodriguez plans on using Milius' idea for "King Conan" or whether he's going to start afresh, and whether he's going to try and coax Arnold Schwarzenegger back to the role of Conan or take on Milius' idea of bringing in Triple-H.

We shall see.

moonglum, Wednesday, 4 May 2005 05:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Ned: Nevil Shute - apart from the fact that he was Anglo-Irish by birth - wasn't really a SF writer, was he? I'd say On The Beach follows the pattern of some of his other books - for example, No Highway or What Happened To The Corbetts in that it is speculative fiction, but not going far beyond the technology that was current when he wrote it.

What Happened To The Corbetts is about the possible effects of a bombing campaign on England, written I think in 1938. The materials science in No Highway is nonsense,* but not too bad for the time it was written; to be honest I'm not sure what its date is. Shute, incidentally, was an important aeronautical engineer in the 20s and 30s; he designed the first plane with a retractable undercarriage.

* the plot of No Highway revolves around fatigue failure in aircraft. There are several mistakes which now seem glaring, but reflect the fact that in Shute's day materials science was relatively poorly studied - and, furthermore, was not something that the majority of engineers knew very much about.

caitlin (caitlin), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 07:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Greg Egan is a fairly prominent Aussie SF writer. He may be a better com-pu-ter whizzkid than he is at literature, but the ideas are interesting.

As an adjunct to the question: short story vs novel(la)? Too many stories end up as lame-ass one-liners ("and it turned out he was Hitler!"), but the best are jewels of rare price, whereas novels allow writers to develop more of what they're really about, for better or worse.

Liz :x (Liz :x), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 08:45 (eighteen years ago) link

("and it turned out he was Hitler!)

No finer twist exists.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 4 May 2005 08:51 (eighteen years ago) link


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