Batman Begins: The Thread

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Dan, that Daredevil issue is quite something! It starts with a teenage girl getting a PCP flashback whilst in school, she begins to see snakes attacking her and hearing them whispering stuff into her ears, and drool comes out of her mouth, and she runs across the classroom while her classmates stare at her, and then she jumps out of the window to get rid of the snakes, and dies. And then Daredevil and Punisher fight a league of evil pushers... There's one particularly juicy scene, where Punisher is attacking the dealers from the shadows, and he shoots one of them dead, and only then does he realize it's was a kid (a black kid, of course), and he just says something like, "Hmm, they're reeling them in younger and younger", and shows no remorse. (Well, of course he has no remorse. He's The Punisher!).

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 14:38 (eighteen years ago) link

So you like the Punisher, but you're appalled at Batman's lack of moral definition?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 14:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Hold, on where did I say like Punisher? Obviously he's the most reprehensible of all superheroes. Though the be fair to Miller, I think at the time the Daredevil story was released he was still considered more of a villain than a hero.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 14:54 (eighteen years ago) link

"I like"

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 14:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Main Entry: an·ti·he·ro
Pronunciation: 'an-ti-"hE-(")rO, 'an-"tI-, -"hir-(")O
Function: noun
: a protagonist or notable figure who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities
- an·ti·he·ro·ic /"an-ti-hi-'rO-ik, "an-"tI-/ adjective

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 14:59 (eighteen years ago) link

Hmm, the Punisher stories I've read certainly didn't make him an antihero. He was mostly shown as such only when he was featured in Daredevil, because then the writers could pit Daredevil's liberalism against his extreme right-wing politics. But again, it's been ten years and more since I last read this stuff, so maybe things have changed.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Obviously he's the most reprehensible of all superheroes.

That's why he's awesome! But I am not here to argue with Tuomas.

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:06 (eighteen years ago) link

(xpost) I'm giving up now.

― The Ghost of I Have Seen The Brick Wall And Its Name Is Tuomas (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:10 (eighteen years ago) link

What's the deal with the Punisher anyway?
He's obviously some sort of Batman, the Next Generation (you kill my family, I'll take a solemn oath, blah blah blah), but, like, is he actually interesting?
Y'know, like Batman, to me, is interesting because of this very argument/discussion we're having...he's got this very personal vendetta that he's imposed on a whole city. He painstakingly fosters a reputation for being more brutal than he actually is (in the comics at least...current issue of Detective Comics has Batman interrogating a street hood, and the street hood sez, "I ain't telling you shit! Everybody says you don't kill." and then Batman says, "That's cuz dead people don't talk, MEAT!"). His very existence negates his supposed premise of upholding the law. There's a wealth of contradiction and interpretation in Batman.

But Punisher...I don't know, he seems like such a dead end.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Hold on, are you saying that Marvel began to publish two different Punisher comic books just so that they could criticize vigilantism and right-wing politics through his character? And even if they did, do you think the kids reading these comic books got the idea? I certainly didn't.

(x-post)

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Huk, I think there's a clear continuum here: Batman > Punisher > Rorschach. Except that Punisher killed a helluva lot more folks than Rorschach.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:19 (eighteen years ago) link

isn't he basically a response to certain standard queries about superhero - 'how come no guns?', 'why don't they just kill the supervillain?' - along with getting at why people loved the batman myth in the first place: what if you had a superhero that resembled supervillains more than other superheros?

xpost tuomas using your inability to 'get the idea' as a gage of anything is a bad idea

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:24 (eighteen years ago) link

haha and whatever happened to yr allegiance to authorial intent? if marvel sez the punisher's a criticism of rightwing attitudes than that's all that matters!

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:26 (eighteen years ago) link

I think in order to make Punisher an effective antihero they should've made him more right-wing, like Rorschach. He should've been a bit of racist and a sexist and a homophobe. Now he's quite like all the other superheroes, except for his views on crime and ways of handling it.

(x-post)

Has Marvel ever said so?

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:27 (eighteen years ago) link

to be fair i think the only punisher comic i've read is the one where he kills the entire marvel universe. everywhere else i've seen him he's been a somewhat peripheral figure despised and regarded with suspicion.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:31 (eighteen years ago) link

also guess what - not all rightwingers are sexists or racists or homophobes just as not all liberals think junkies make great babysitters or that murderers deserve more sympathy than their victims.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:34 (eighteen years ago) link

(I know I said I was giving up but FFS, I think that being a vigilante on a murderous revenge rampage is kind of an elementary, no-brainer definition of an antihero! A story doesn't have to jump up and down and state in gigantic flashing neon letters "LOOK SEE WHAT HE IS DOING IS WRONG!" in order for it to communicate that the protagonist isn't doing "the right thing". Why should spandex stories have to explicitly spell out their moral center?)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:37 (eighteen years ago) link

What?!?!?! (xp)

― Truckdrivin' Buddha (Rock Hardy), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:38 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, if I remember correctly Punisher started out as a Spider-Man villain who was shooting all the criminals, even litterers. But then, for some reason, he got his own comic book, and they explained that when he shot litterers he was under an effect of a drug or something, and in his own comic book he shot only criminals who "deserved" it. I did read Punisher issues published in the late eighties and early nineties, and if they were meant to be a satire, it wasn't very obvious.

(x-post)

Dan, because their primary audience is kids and because they still portray their characters heroic. Even the Punisher mags did.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:39 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think their primary audience is kids anymore.

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

tuomas and nairn should have a fishing show

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Jesus wept.

― The Ghost of Finland WIll Not Be Leading The World In Textual Analysis Anytime S, Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link

But Rorschach doesn't "exist" in same way that Batman & the Punisher do. He was part of a finite story, with a single (or at least concentrated), defined purpose. He appears in 12 comics ever. Batman, meanwhile, has had at least two adventures (in a multitude of media) a month for 65 years, and (despite some rumours) will likely to continue to do so as long that's profitable.
Punisher, I really know very little about. I think I may have read one issue of Punisher War Journal 15 years ago, and I've seen the latest movie.
I can understand how Batman's vendetta can easily be transferred from the personal to the civic ("No child should have to grow up as I did, stinking rich and loved and cared for by a well-heeled Brit."), especially considered his generally non-lethal methods and core (though prone to lapse) respect of the Justice System. But how did the Punisher go from Punishing his family's killers to Punishing everyone?
Batman, once he matures, at least, sees himself as a protector. But Punisher is just a killing machine, no?

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:43 (eighteen years ago) link

apparently the redhead from wedding crashers is in the next one

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:45 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think their primary audience is kids anymore.

We are all kids at heart in an infantilized culture.

― Goo goo WAH MY DIAPER IS FULL (Ned), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:53 (eighteen years ago) link

The diaper of my culture overfloweth.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 15:56 (eighteen years ago) link

I think that being a vigilante on a murderous revenge rampage is kind of an elementary, no-brainer definition of an antihero!

Except that there's this place called the USA where many people believe that's the elementary definition of every hero!

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:25 (eighteen years ago) link

"many people"

― Leon C. (Ex Leon), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:27 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess when people idolize Scarface the idea of an antihero just doesn't mean much to me anymore. And on the scale of antiheroes, Batman's antis are pretty wimpy.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

THAT'S WHY WE LOVE HIM.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

walter how old are you that you can remember a pre-muni america?

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 16:56 (eighteen years ago) link

"every hero"

I can't even tell if that's hyperbole or idiocy.

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess when people idolize Scarface the idea of an antihero just doesn't mean much to me anymore.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:04 (eighteen years ago) link

idiobole

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:06 (eighteen years ago) link

So Batman Begins is basically Watchmen, with Ra's as Ozymandias and Batman as Rorschach, only this time Rorschach is a little more grounded and qucker on the uptake and has a lot of money.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:10 (eighteen years ago) link

batman's more niteowl in this one

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:14 (eighteen years ago) link

good call.

― Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:17 (eighteen years ago) link

What are the archetypal American heroes (anti- or otherwise)? Superman, Batman, Spiderman, the cowboy, the gangster, the private eye, the war hero, Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones...? Who else? Where does Batman fall on this spectrum? How many of these hero figures are non-violent? If you define antihero as anyone who is murderous or a vigilante then who is left as a hero? To me an antihero is a character who is weak, cowardly, criminal, a failure, etc. Batman is portrayed as an antihero to a certain degree in BB but in terms of his overall place in the culture I think he's regarded as a hero.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Scarecrow = "evil" Rorschach?

(xpost: Is the protagonist of "Memento" a hero or an antihero? Also, did you miss the bit where we were specifically talking about THE PUNISHER and the rather ludicrous idea that he's supposed to be a heroic character?)

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:21 (eighteen years ago) link

If you define antihero as anyone who is murderous or a vigilante then who is left as a hero? - out of your group? Superman, Batman, Spiderman, the cowboy, the war hero, Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:24 (eighteen years ago) link

not wonder woman though

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Hahahaha

― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:26 (eighteen years ago) link

And before we enter Semantic Junction -

vigilante: One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands.

Superman killed, too!

― David R. (popshots75`), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:27 (eighteen years ago) link

(xpost: Is the protagonist of "Memento" a hero or an antihero?

I didn't see it. From the trailer I assumed that the killer he's looking for is actually himself or some lame twist like that but I don't know anything else about it.

Also, did you miss the bit where we were specifically talking about THE PUNISHER and the rather ludicrous idea that he's supposed to be a heroic character?)

Yes. I thought your comment was still in reference to Batman. Still, I think it's difficult to draw a line when American culture has idolized so many murderous characters.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

uhh... really? I can't recall a single instance of Superman killing anybody. Its kinda a hallmark of his character that he doesn't kill.

x-post

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:28 (eighteen years ago) link

If you define antihero as anyone who is murderous or a vigilante then who is left as a hero? - out of your group?

Superman, Spiderman,

Yes.

Batman, the cowboy, the war hero,

Wrong!

Luke Skywalker, Indiana Jones

Grey area.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:29 (eighteen years ago) link

I think we're trying to draw the hero/anti-hero line a little too clearly here. I mean, the only country I can think of with an archetypal pacifist "hero" is India.

(Superman and Spiderman are both vigilantes. See JJ Jameson's attacks on Spiderman)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:30 (eighteen years ago) link

(I mean, I think to some degree all cultures equate violence w/heroism. ie. one who is "brave" enough to do what's "necessary" and risk life and limb etc.)

― Shakey Mo Collier, Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:31 (eighteen years ago) link

superman's gonna kill lois whenever he gets around to fucking her (redefining 'beat that pussy up')(TUOMAS WHAT IS YR TAKE ON 'WAIT (THE WHISPER SONG)?)

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 4 August 2005 17:32 (eighteen years ago) link

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