Continuing with CDs?

I remember reading that the accuracy of the clock plays a big part in the quality of the sound, as converting D to A requires very precise timing. And that $670 player posted above made a note about how accurate its clock is.

It's specious to insist that because it's a digital medium, all players are going to be transparent.
...
made from parts whose quality and tolerances vary, and are made to a price point

i'm not insisting that all digital players are transparent, only that transparency can be achieved cheaply and that price point has little to no correlation to quality, especially in the audiophoolery side of things. "you get what you pay for" won't get you far

all audible variance comes from the analogue side of the playback gear, the source being digital matters little because usually it's the circuitry *after* the DAC that matters, modern DACs can be both transparent and cheap, but as you well know that won't save you from impedance mismatches or power supply noise or what have you.

(also not sure which part of the clip+ measurements break transparency)

xp again, more audiophile FUD, jitter is pretty much a non-issue in digital audio, buffering exists

Buffering is for reading the digital data so that there is always data to process when needed, it has nothing to do with clock jitter, which affects the converting of the digital data to analog.

https://www.stereophile.com/reference/1290jitter/index.html

This article is simpler and has graphics showing the problem, but the author is a non-native English speaker, so it's a bit rougher to read.

https://headfonics.com/what-is-jitter-in-audio/

*sigh*

So, I have noticed that different players play cd’s at different speeds. Is that the clock thing? I picked up on that with the Flaming Lips Zaireeka. After awhile the four cds get out of sync. But if they are playing at slightly different speeds, wouldn’t that change the pitch?

I assume it would just be the sampling rate getting off somehow, so the sound would be spaced out slightly differently. The original pitch is built into the digital data.

Nah, it just stores the wave shape, no freqency analysis. If you played back a CD at half the clock speed it would be an octave lower and run twice as long.
The Zaireeka CDs might get out of sync if they were a little scratched and the player was having to error-correct.

Nope, not scratched at all. In the notes the Lips noticed this too and said that it might be beneficial to restart at the beginning of each song to realign them. I never bothered because it sounded cool and it was always different.

I had an Amazon gift card and was almost going to order the Sade vinyl box. Then I started thinking about whether I wanted to get up and flip those albums halfway through and how it feels good to really sink into them. Then I realized I could order all of the Sade CDs, the Complete Fun Boy Three box, and the full catalog of Pauline Anna Strom for less than the vinyl.

I've got a sweet-ass delivery coming my way!

In the notes the Lips noticed this too and said that it might be beneficial to restart at the beginning of each song to realign them

are they out of sync by more than a full second or only fractions of second?
my first hunch was one of the players skipping INDEX 00 markers but all tracks in zairekka have several second long pregaps so the desync would be glaringly obvious by track 2, so that must not be it

easy test to determine if the problem is the discs or the player(s) is playing until out of sync and note which disc is delayed, take the delayed disc out of its current player and swap in another: if the delay stays the same, it's the disc; if the newly swapped in disc is now delayed and the former is now fine, it's the player.

smartphone barcode apps have gotten much better if you want to go that route

― Philip Nunez, Friday, January 5, 2024 4:20 PM (yesterday)

drop some names? are they any better at figuring out which BMG mail-order CD NOT FOR RETAIL SALE version you have when the barcodes are the same?

Oh, I meant in terms of actually being able to read the barcode from a phone camera (which also has gotten much better) -- it's still not perfect but even with dedicated retail hardware scanners you sometimes have to align it just so and try multiple times for some pesky barcodes, but just a few years back they weren't as good, at least not any free ones.

It would be cool and maybe even technically feasible now for apps to start also recognizing the object itself and disambiguating variant releases, but I don't know of any -- I'd just tried some random free barcode scanning apps and was pleasantly surprised at them actually working at just the raw task of scanning a barcode.

I upgraded my CD player recently from an old Sony 5-cd changer to the entry-level Yamaha single disc player. The sound does seem more transparent, it doesn’t have that slightly artificial CD sound I associate with the old one.

are they any better at figuring out which BMG mail-order CD NOT FOR RETAIL SALE version you have when the barcodes are the same?

― 龜, Saturday, January 6, 2024 9:11 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is exactly what I was referring to above. The barcode scanner is fine for albums that fall into the narrow category of "not obscure enough to lack a barcode, but not popular enough to have six thousand different editions," but for trying to determine, for example, what version of Wish You Were Here you have, the scanners are in my experience totally useless.

I wonder if it makes sense to catalog pictures of your collection in anticipation of apps being able to auto-categorize them years down the line. If you knew for a certainty it would happen, would you start early?

Zaireeka: I haven't played it in years, but I did a lot back in the day on all different set-ups, and it was consistent. Over time the players drift out of sync. Each song starts with a count to make sure everybody pressed play at the same time: "Track number one, this is CD number one." As they go along and it gets to the next song, the count will start to be off. Sometimes dramatically, depending on the player. Sometimes by the last song they'll be off definitely more than a second, so that the count off starts to get out of order. Not much more than that, but in all the times I did it with all kinds of combinations of different players, the discs never stayed truly in sync. The Lips noted this and it was considered to be part of the experience; the "mix" would never be exactly the same, depending on the players, speakers, and how out of sync the players would get.

I did it once in my deceased grandmother's house with two Zaireeka sets, so 8 discs. A couple of large stereos and several boom-boxes, with a different player in each room of the house, cranked up loud. It was a party and everybody was wandering from room to room, in quite a state. It felt like the house was vibrating.

haha, that's awesome!

Re: Zaireeka: are there any mixdowns-to-(two-channel) stereo out there (either via download or streaming) that anyone recommends?

O. Nate, how is that Yamaha single-disc player overall? Did you look at any others in that price range? I was surprised to find when I started looking around several months ago that the least expensive single-disc player is now $400-ish. . .

i spent real money for a new rotel cd player for the store a year or two ago. i really like it. 32-bit DAC? something like that. my old Marantz at the store seems to like it. and my Klipschs do too. it makes CDs sound really good when they are good-sounding CDs. which is what i wanted for the store. it makes it really easy to tell the difference between a well-made CD and a shitty CD. i like playing random discs and being pleasantly surprised by their sound. i put in some completely normal 80s u.s. cd copy of a black uhuru album the other day and holy crap it sounded so awesome! the bass was huge in a good way. you never know. i mean it could have been a tinny 80s mess. its my budget hot stamper fun. i sell a ton of CDs and i have a good hookup for old stuff.
i treated myself to a nice new cartridge for my old pioneer turntable at home this month and now its like christmas all over again. i want to play everything to hear how it sounds. sometimes a well-made new needle will decide that it doesn't like one of my old faves. it shows me things that i hadn't heard before or it highlights limitations. but when you get the right record on there - luckily i am surrounded by thousands of choice jazz records at home - hoo boy does it really shine.

Which Rotel player, Scott?

Dunno about current models but if you can find a used RCD971 or 991 then you are in “as good as it gets” territory for mine.

Is Rotel the ILM standard make? RCD950 here. Can't recall how long ago I bought it but I do remember saving up for many months.

Jeff check out accessories4less; they carry the latest Yamaha/Denon/Onkyo models in factory refurb or open box condition for around $200. SafeandsoundHQ do the same for NAD at $300.

I have an old Denon “universal” player that would have been way out of my league when it came out but cost me $200AUD second-hand - DVD-3910 I think - have always liked the sound of Denon CDPs, they have some kinda special sauce to my ears (apologies for mixing senses) - the fact that this one also plays HDCD, SACD and DVD-A is occasionally nifty fun, and I still use the DVD capabilities sometimes as well

O. Nate, how is that Yamaha single-disc player overall

It’s fine I guess. It sounds better than the one it replaced so I think it was money well spent. I have a phobia about spending a lot of money for audio equipment that I can’t try out first, but yeah as you mentioned to me even $400 seems like a lot for a cd player.

I did a cheap upgrade to my bookshelf stereo/cd in the bedroom. I got a pair of heavy yoga blocks to put under the speakers. It really does help isolate the speaker from the surroundings. I think it clears up the low end.

CD revival. it was funny when I revived this thread and was basically told “go buy a dvd player at a thrift store”

Post by brimstead from i need a cd player and i have no money on ILX - i need a cd player and i have no money

Are people giving up CD players getting rarer or more common? I picked up a 5-disc Onkyo off the street a few months back.

i thought i had more discs than i actually do... but i catalogued everything tonight and it was satisfying. this is two years of collecting. i reckon i would have been able to afford maybe 50-80 LPs in that timeframe. perfect sound forever!

http://www.discogs.com/collection?user=elinsound

I think by now a lot of people just don't have CD players at all

I still have a portable one, but I can’t remember the last time I had a CD-only player. Seemed either pointless or a luxury to have one thanks to DVD’s and later Blu-rays (not to mention video games but I never got into those).

Should say “buy” one, not “have.” I remember my family still had a hulking Pioneer CD player with a six-disc magazine that was really old but still functional. I don’t remember them ever giving it or throwing it away so I have no idea what happened to it.

i drive a 2017 car which has a CD player but i assume it'll be the last one i own which still has one. unless i'm completely misinformed on the supposed death of the car CD player.

i've actually bought more CDs in the past year than any other year in the past decade. i'm happy to be getting a CD for only $2-3 bucks, now that all records are $20. the shoddiness of a lot of new vinyl pressings has started to make the whole enterprise feel like a scam, save a few specific artists and extremely high QC labels. i'm still *mostly* buying records, but the scales are tipping.

My car (2009 Nissan Versa) has a 6CD changer, but I don't think I've ever used it. I just plug my digital Walkman into the aux port.

you can still buy head units with CD players for pretty cheap for cars. i got one last month for $100

the bass in my old subaru is hefty. reggae and Eyehategod CDs all day long.

(after work last night i put my dad in the car, started it, turned on the heat, and went across the street to Cheech & Chong's Dispensaria. when i come back to the car i totally forgot that I left the volume way up on my solo ride in to work that morning. dad got 5 prime minutes of very loud *In The Name Of Suffering*. i hope he doesn't start acting up at the Senior Center.)

I feel bad for even having an opinion about how physical media is produced these day, other than “stop making physical media”… but yeah CDs:

- it would be nice if one could buy replacement jewel cases that were thick and sturdy like in the 80s

- I hate digisleeves unless they’re those mini LP thingees with the soft inner sleeve for the disc. really hate how they’ve become the default for new releases in a lot of cases, the cd is obviously an afterthought.

I’m still using the same mid00s Sony DVD/SACD player I mentioned in 2021 and it still works fine.

CD packaging has always sucked, with the exception of a few thoughtfully designed box sets. I generally throw CD packaging away and put the discs in a binder.

I've definitely seen boxes of CD cases left out on the street, sometimes even brand new, though more recently I've seen just spindles of blank unused CD-Rs/RWs.

I can’t figure out why CDs from the ‘90s, including old favorites, sounds so muddy to me now, in comparison to modern discs (when played in the same player). Are they mastered differently now?

Tracks from the same albums sound great when streamed at high quality, but the CDs themselves are not pleasant to listen to anymore… it’s like night and day in comparison to new recordings (or remasters of the old recordings).

There's a whole world of surgical digital EQ, lookahead brickwall limiting, etc... could it be your own tastes lean more toward modern production? The traditional audiofool wisdom is that older CDs are better (I don't know that I personally agree).

Often it’s a simple level thing - hotter mixes are perceived as sounding better in general, and a lot of 90s discs were mastered for normal headroom before the “loudness wars” of the 90s / 00s in which mastering was goosed to try to cut thru on streaming / shuffle play. Try turning the older discs up!

I have… they just sound worse! :( It’s like a “clarity” thing… idk

Granted, some of these are “mid-fi” indie-rock albums; but others are big-budget studio recordings (…and for comparison, today’s indie-rock albums can sound great, anyway; like the last Big Thief album, that CD sounds terrific).

name some albums that sound bad?

Yeah, I’d say CDs started sounding bad in general around 1995 and got worse for about a decade, and have been improving since. (A very general statement— exceptions abound.) Pre-loudness-wars discs often sound sublime; I’ve never been tempted to buy Daniel Lanois’ Wynona on vinyl, and a remastered version wouldn’t tempt me, because I can’t imagine anything sounding better than the original CD. On the other hand, Sam Roberts’ We Were Born In a Flame is so poorly mastered that it literally hurts my ears to listen to, even at low volumes, and the LP is a huge improvement. Brickwall was/is a bitch.

There was an interview with Stephen Street where he said that, in the late 80s / early 90s, mastering engineers often filtered the bottom end and reduced the stereo field. Neither of those changes sound like they'd be for the better and he seemed as mystified as anyone else why they'd do that.

Reducing the stereo field & filtering out the bottom end is important for vinyl mastering.

Hilarious that this post was started over 16 years ago.

name some albums that sound bad?

10,000 Maniacs - Our Time in Eden
Bought this when it came out, was a big fan, listened to it a lot... recently got back into it on streaming; sounds so great & lush. Dug out the old CD... does not sound lush!

The Sugarcubes - Here Today, Tomorrow Next Week!
Bought this sealed on eBay (a new "record club" pressing, from back in the day)... I won't say it sounds "bad," but it's fairly harsh and tiring on the ears. Very "CD" sounding, in that way that CDs used to have.

Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream
Another one I bought on release day, and have listened to a lot over the years. I bought the 2011 remaster a few years back; it sounds so much better! (this one may be a matter of a taste; I won't be the one to say that the original SD mastering is "bad")

Liz Phair - Whitechocolatespaceegg
Yet another I used to love, and dug back out recently... it just sounds muddy! Unpleasant to listen to, compared with streaming the same tracks.

Built to Spill - There's Nothing Wrong with Love
Probably the worst offender here. I got way into this album recently (via streaming), and dug out my old copy from college. Could barely make it through the disc! It sounds so harsh and shrill. And I know it's a Sub Pop album by an indie rock band, we're not talking Fleetwood Mac... but it made in the studio w/Phil Ek, it's not like it was recorded on a tape deck.