Is this anti-semitism?

I ripped a '5G gives you Morgellons' type poster off a tree once and I'd do it again.

Not saying that this is necessarily my opinion— it isn’t, fwiw— but I have read comments about the posters that essentially say that the Israeli “side” gets humanized while the Palestinian “side” gets bombed. I think that’s a bit too simplistic.

However, there are countless examples of newspapers showing destruction in Gaza and bloody, weeping Palestinians under headlines about Israel needing to defend itself or Israeli deaths— thus implying that the pictures are of Israel, or of Israelis. This basic dishonesty— utilizing the pain of those being oppressed to signify the pain of the oppressors— is a basic propaganda method.

right I don't think they should be torn down either but given the thousands of dead kids and the fact that a significant number of housing units have been destroyed I can understand why some people are frustrated with the nonstop coverage dedicated to a relatively small number of hostages

So speaking of, what *is* the deal with the posters? Why are people taking them down?

I find them deeply puzzling. Whenever I see one my reaction is "yes agreed, hope the hostages make it back alive, let's hope Israel agrees to a ceasefire and exchange of prisoners so these ppl can go back home" - I think this is not what the posters *want* me to think, but they also don't say anything against it?

I had read somewhere that the posters were put up as a kind of bait, and that that partially explains why there are so many videos of people tearing them down, but it still seems quite strange to pull the posters down, on camera and for the most part without any face coverings or masks of any kind.

Thats still kind of a big assumption that people would actually do that (even if assumption proved correct though I guess we don't see incidents were posters were left in-tact)

I don't think the answer to inadequate empathy given to one side should ever be to minimize the pain of the other side. That goes both ways. I get that there's a kind of attention economy, but maybe it would be more effective to post humanizing pictures of Palestinians killed as well? Also there seems to be some overlap between tearing down the pictures and denying or minimizing the events.

One of the pictures that haunted me most in the last couple weeks was posted in the other thread, I believe it was the father (who had just been killed) of a Palestinian writer although I forget if it was in an essay or tweeted. It was just a picture of him standing in his house, near the kitchen, in his coat, with a kind of weary, sad look on his face. It wasn't refugees fleeing bombs or people crying out next to rubble. I wish that more people would see images of what is being destroyed and not just of the destruction.

I can understand why some people are frustrated with the nonstop coverage dedicated to a relatively small number of hostages

Is part of that due to the fact many of the hostages are/were German, British, American etc potentially increasing coverage in respective countries? I realize this is a blanket statement and varies country to country but still could be a factor

there is a bit of an empathy gap here. americans can easily imagine being kidnapped or murdered, or the same thing happening to a relative, but can't so easily imagine hellfire raining down on their hometown and losing everything in an instant

I picture it happening all the time (airstrikes on my town, natural disaster destroying it, etc.). Maybe as a reminder that things that seem permanent can actually be very temporary. I think of it as a Jewish thing to always remember that everything can seem fine and permanent and you can lose it in an instant.

It's weird to me that people could see families fleeing airstrikes and not at least momentarily imagine themselves in the same position.

could be and really I'm not trying to minimize the horribleness of that situation either but I feel like the majority of people would very much like for there to be an end to the conflict that does not involve literal genocide or war crimes against citizens who are already oppressed but it seems expressing that opinion in public basically gets you called a Nazi. even the White House is starting to conflate those protesting genocide now to what happened in Charlottesville a few years ago - you know, the rally which involved actual Nazis calling for the extermination of Jews. it's enough to drive anyone insane. I don't think anybody is acting rationally right now.

yeah i think those just register as images on the news to lots of people in this country. nothing even remotely similar to what's happening in gaza has happened in the u.s. in centuries

I get that too, but there's a big leap from that to pulling down posters of kidnapped people which I don't think is adequately explained by frustration.

xps to frogbs

I find that the whole idea that this is just some sort of baiting program to be a bit too "conspiracy thinking" for my liking, not that some of the individuals who have decided to print them and post them are *not* using them in that manner.

I think the relatively small number of hostages allows for the names and faces to be more widely known, when you go from a single attack to a wider war the numbers of dead and missing get contextually reframed as just "war numbers" and no names or faces get assigned and ppl's eyes glaze over. It just becomes anonymous. So the value of the faces and names being shared from Gaza is crucial.

right the thing that really got me was seeing some text messages from a Palestinian mother of 4 whose building was being bombed where her kids were asking her if it hurt to die and if they should try falling asleep so it won't hurt as much. and how it was so loud that they were hoping for their hearing to go so they wouldn't have to withstand that pain. that is the sort of thing I can at least kind of try to identify with. entire housing units turned to rubble is just beyond me right now

I get that too, but there's a big leap from that to pulling down posters of kidnapped people which I don't think is adequately explained by frustration.

― anvil, Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:25 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

well according to that article the Miami dentist did it as a response to the hate crime in Chicago which killed a little boy. maybe he thinks sharing these images is only stoking more anti-Muslim hate. can't really blame him tbh

fuck (xp)

Perhaps, there might not be a single reason behind the different instances of posters being taken down, and in some cases it might be people thought it was the best option - but in at least some of the videos it doesn't really seem that way.

If I saw a poster that pictured Hamas hostages accompanied by a title along the lines of “Save The Hostages, Ceasefire Now” I would personally leave it up

If the title were to read “Save The Hostages By Bombing The Shit Out Of Gaza” I would take it down, because I disagree with it and protest against it

I think the latter is implied to certain people, and the posters are probably being removed for this reason

well according to that article the Miami dentist did it as a response to the hate crime in Chicago which killed a little boy. maybe he thinks sharing these images is only stoking more anti-Muslim hate. can't really blame him tbh

― frogbs, Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:28 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

I just don't think there's a tenable position that you should silence people talking about atrocities in order to prevent hate. I get the dilemma of it, but it just doesn't seem like that can work.

I also think there's a lot of turning anger and fear toward easy targets right now. People in America who are genuinely upset by what they see don't feel like they can do much about it, but they can tweet about that guy who tears down flyers or argue over a slogan and its meaning, as though that's the real problem.

I don't think the answer to inadequate empathy given to one side should ever be to minimize the pain of the other side.

Since even regarding Palestinians as categorically "human" is seemingly controversial and can get one reprimanded, fired, or ostracized, it's a little difficult for many people I know to take seriously the idea that there is any minimization of pain on the Israeli side.

the amount and nature of minimization probably depends on whom you're listening to / getting into arguments with

If the title were to read “Save The Hostages By Bombing The Shit Out Of Gaza” I would take it down, because I disagree with it and protest against it

I think the latter is implied to certain people, and the posters are probably being removed for this reason

This is probably fair, though its difficult to imagine bombing Gaza would be beneficial to any hostages. But I take your point that while it doesn't say that people can read a variety of different things into a message. Its still surprising to me all the same

they can tweet about that guy who tears down flyers or argue over a slogan and its meaning, as though that's the real problem.

Obviously its not the real problem, but I think potentially it is A problem?

exactly I mean you turn on the news and they are just talking about the hostages nonstop. and you know for every single one of those hostages the Israeli government has killed at least 10 children and they just do not mention it at all.

I just don't think there's a tenable position that you should silence people talking about atrocities in order to prevent hate. I get the dilemma of it, but it just doesn't seem like that can work.

I get that and think it's dumb to tear down those posters but I also think it's gonna be very hard to prevent hate when you send a very clear message that Israeli lives matter and Palestinian lives very much do not. what Israel is doing right now is going to inflict a generational trauma upon an entire nation and I'm not sure how much the Palestinian people are going to be willing to forgive and forget when half their family winds up brutally massacred for basically no reason other than their apparent love of hitting civilian targets

Its not just dumb, its counter-productive, as it can easily be perceived as saying "these lives don't matter" - haven't said Israeli because many of them weren't.

Also the people tearing down the posters don't generally seem to be Palestinian, for the most part at least

I think the posters are going to be fine

I'm not sure I have anything helpful to add here, but on the topic of bait, it's bothering me that the tweet-video Josh posted initially was from a writer for the far-right Daily Wire. That UC Davis prof who rightfully was condemned for her murderous tweet about journalists' children—after the screenshot got posted I googled it b/c janky screenshots are so easily faked: the first sources I saw were all right-wing rags whose headlines led with the fact the prof is trans. That doesn't mitigate what she wrote and it wasn't fake, though her account was private—again, I don't think that matters in terms of her clearly not deserving to hold a position of authority over students. I guess I just feel sick about how the raw emotion and justifiable fear and rage people are feeling is so easily co-opted by vicious ghouls who see this conflict as just another field to wage their ongoing culture war on

yeah, I've been uncomfortable with a lot of these videos, because of the sources posting them, though at the same time that doesn't negate what is being posted.

I was just struck by the number of them. I didn't notice the sources specifically but I did partly wonder if they were for real at first as this stuff can be misleading too. Presumably its not just being covered by Daily Wire type outlets though?

I've seen them posted from sources I would consider liberal but also pro Israel, too.

fuck the fucking posters

New board description.

Years of let’s go brandon stickers have conditioned me to take any uniform application of print media (flyers, stickers, handouts, billboards etc) as republican astroturfing and the speed and uniformity of the posters themselves make me raise an eyebrow even if, sure, free hostages we should absolutely be on board that

Since even regarding Palestinians as categorically "human" is seemingly controversial and can get one reprimanded, fired, or ostracized, it's a little difficult for many people I know to take seriously the idea that there is any minimization of pain on the Israeli side.

― butt dumb tight my boners got boners (the table is the table), Tuesday, October 31, 2023 9:37 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

On CNN? No. On the left? Absolutely. Not to mention outright denial, conspiracy theory, it was actually the israeli military who killed them all, etc.

Where are you seeing that?

All over Twitter. Including accounts with pretty large followings.

Why I avoid Twitter pt. 233

yeah, note to self to get off twitter again

yes I highly recommend staying off Twitter right now, as bad as it would normally be floating all Elon's paypigs to the top makes it even worse

Those people are not “the Left” They are just a different strain of tinfoil folk.

There are lots of outright Nazis on Twitter being pro-palestinian for clout from dum-dums

@purplechrain had a good thread about this phenomenon a few days ago

Including accounts with pretty large followings.

Second Thought? Hasan Piker? Galloway? Theres a few of these, does depend on your definition of left to some extent tho

fwiw, there's a new NYT article about the posters that purports to identify some of the people behind them:

To Nitzan Mintz, one of the artists behind the fliers, watching them go viral in the first place was a shock. Seeing people rip down the posters has revealed what she said was clear antisemitism. “By accident this campaign did more than bring an awareness of the kidnapped people,” she said. “It brought awareness of how hated we are as a community.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/31/nyregion/israel-gaza-kidnapped-poster-fight.html

I’m seeing quite a bit of conspiratorial thinking about Shani Nouk and how/who killed her, or if she really was killed, but I know her family finally provided DNA sample material from her and her still-missing boyfriend two days before her death was reported by the Israeli government. That makes sense and none of the crankbots had that info. My friend is trying to help the family of the boyfriend locate him, and had been trying to organise getting DNA samples to the correct authorities since the original attack.

Just walked past a poster with the exact same design as the ones we were discussing but with the picture of a child and a text about how she was killed by Israel in Gaza.

anvil which conspiracy theories did Hasan Piker endorse?

Re: Piker, I was just querying man alive as to whether that might who. I've not seen much of what he's said, but other than the "large following" tag, the other reason I thought that might be who he was referring to was the Second Thought people he's connected with saying the people that were killed by Hamas weren't civilians and were therefore legitimate targets. Obviously thats not conspiracy thinking but I thought it fit into the broader picture of what man alive was referring to as he wasn't only referring to conspiracy stuff in his post

Generally I think its more a mixture of carelessness and misinformation than conspiracy stuff. To be fair there's a lot of this from all angles at the moment and its difficult to follow, but with the hospital incident that was reported as an Israeli strike but turned out to be a Hamas misfire (I think? I'm still not 100% clear on this myself), Hasan was listening to footage and confidently saying "oh yes that sounds like a JDAM 257A alright".

But it was more a case of asking man alive who he meant, and these were the only possible examples I could think of

Ok, I have a mate who's a big Hasan fan and if dude was spreading any misinformation I'd want to flag that up for him.

I think the hospital thing remains tbd and probably will be for decades, agreed it's a bad look to play military/detonation expert on the internet tho.