Is this anti-semitism?

innocuous? it's a war!

like, if Israelis weren't chanting 'death to Hamas' on the reg i'd be kind of shocked, and vice versa

the important thing is to stop the war. then you will have achieved the aim of getting people to stop using offensive slogans which after all is the real problem

yeah, but this is the antisemitism thread, not the stop the war thread. This is where we talk about Bradley Cooper's fake nose.

sorry i got bent out of shape. i just think "glory to our martyrs" is the kind of thing people have said for thousands of years in the middle of a war. it's not great. but i don't see it as antisemitic. i'm sure there are a range of views on this though!

All valid and welcome perspectives.

Getting back to the Rivkah Brown post that was deleted, I think it was posited upthread something to the effect that holding of "Zionist"
or even nationalist beliefs is not limited to Jewish people, and that it is arguably the conflation of Jewish people with Zionist views that is objectionable.

So while I can see other explanations, the aspect of Brown's tweet that seemed eyerolly to me (in the Sarah Silverman sense) was, ok if that's true, if the superset of people who hold Zionist views comprises more people than just Jewish people, and if a subset of Jewish people do not hold Zionist views, then why mention Jewish people at all? Why address that Tweet to Jweish people and imply that the source of Zionism is home, synagogue, family? Why not just say anyone interested in unlearning "Zionism" should dm?

The singling out, shaming, and implication that by default Jewish people need to be reeducated is quite iffy, and that is what I think might have been overlooked.

yeah, but this is the antisemitism thread, not the stop the war thread. This is where we talk about Bradley Cooper's fake nose.

I just came across a protest irl where people were chanting "Free, free Palestine" which seems fine. But then followed it with "Intifada, Intifada" which I wasn't so sure about.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:49 AM bookmarkflaglink

Follow-up question: if "glory to our martyrs" is projected alongside the "river to sea" phrase, doesn't it imply the "river to sea" phrase, at least in this context, may not be entirely innocuous?

― Josh in Chicago, Wednesday, October 25, 2023 10:51 AM bookmarkflaglink

Let's say it's not great branding

xpost oh ffs

We've already discussed the "river to the sea" chant. How about "glory to our martyrs", which was apparently also projected on the side of a building at GW University last night? That one seems maybe more problematic.

sound of the thread police

sorry i got bent out of shape. i just think "glory to our martyrs" is the kind of thing people have said for thousands of years in the middle of a war. it's not great. but i don't see it as antisemitic. i'm sure there are a range of views on this though!

It's cool, they're only words, right? ;)

Just cross-referencing a little bit: so when my kid tells me she is sitting at lunch, talking with her friends, and some high school student group starts passing out (unsanctioned, fwiw) flyers with phrases she finds upsetting, I should tell her ...

For the benefit of the twitter holdouts on this thread, we can see the individual tweet you post, but what we can't see are any of the other tweets that it might be in conversation with. If you post a tweet that is intended to be read as part of a thread, we can't see those other tweets unless we go look them up on the sometimes here, sometimes gone Nitter.net.

Example 1

Peace, Man
@p,m
Well, ya wanna know what I think? 1/50

the problem: we never get to find out what the tweeter thinks.

Example 2

Peace, Man
@p,m
25/50 ...and so then I says to Netanyahu, I says...

the problem: what was said before and after that?

Example 3

Peace, Man
@p,m
Replying to @elonmusk
Well, if that's your opinion, you can go ahead and shove it!

the problem: we can't see the opinion that the tweeter was replying about.

Mostly these days, I just ignore the ilx-posted tweets that fall into this criteria. But sometimes people just post a tweet AS their ilx post, as if to say "here it is! the proof of what I've been saying all this time!" If that's your intention, it might be helpful to add a little context, either by writing your own ilx post to accompany the tweet or *shudder* posting each tweet from the thread that you think people would need to understand the context.

Especially when the tweet purports to be a characterization summing up what all the replies were

That post is amazing, peace man. Personally I don’t mind Twitter embeds but the lazy dropping of a (usually provocative or inflammatory) tweet without context or comment is just idle stirring imo? It’s like, I’m so opinionated but I won’t actually tell you what I think, you can just guess through these links. Anyway.

"I *might* be being sarcastic/racist/islamaphobic/antisemitic/transphobic! Who can tell?"

Sorry for pulling focus. I do think the chants is an important discussion

it is arguably the conflation of Jewish people with Zionist views that is objectionable

maxi-xps I know that Jewish people are nowhere near unanimous when it comes to how their relationship to the state of Israel fits with their relationship to Judaism. Unfortunately seven decades of propaganda has encouraged this conflation whenever it was deemed politically expedient for the protection of the state of Israel. For example, the stirring theme from the 1960 movie Exodus explicitly mixes up the two, beginning with the line "This land is mine. God gave this land to me." You aren't responsible for this propaganda, but it happened and it has been remarkably effective in doing that work of conflation.

Setting aside whether that is true, Aimless (i dont have an opinion on that at this time), do you have an opinion on the benefit of asking Jews (and only Jews) if they want to be deprogrammed from Zionism?

Is there a detriment in your mind to addressing it to "Jews" and in your mind would Brown's Tweet have caught the same flack if it had said:

Follow
An academic friend of mine is running a series of teach-ins (mostly in east London but occasionally on Zoom) for people to unlearn the Zionism they've been taught, whether in person, online or otherwise.

Mutuals DM me for details. Otherwise please email.
2:00 AM · Oct 24, 2023

It would def still have been picked up on by Daily Express guy, because that paper makes a living off inflammatory right wing nonsense.

asking Jews (and only Jews) if they want to be deprogrammed from Zionism?

Well, it's obviously a loaded question, carrying an objectionable assumption, and since that objectionable assumption is directed solely at jews, I'd say it is implicitly anti-semitic. However, getting the person asking the question to understand its anti-semitic nature is going to be complicated in part because of the fog of propaganda swirling around the relationship of Judaism and Zionism.

It's a bit analogous to the problem of a Black person trying to argue with a white person who thinks that affirmative action is reverse racism, when the white person cites Clarence Thomas at them in the belief that a prominent Black person's agreement with them makes their position unassailable.

sorry i got bent out of shape. i just think "glory to our martyrs" is the kind of thing people have said for thousands of years in the middle of a war. it's not great. but i don't see it as antisemitic. i'm sure there are a range of views on this though!

I haven’t been posting much on these threads (as a Muslim living in a Muslim majority country as well as possibly the only? Muslim on ilx, I find much of the discourse upsetting and exhausting) but just wanted to add some context re the phrase:

Martyrdom (shaheed) in Islam doesn’t necessarily refer only to people who die in fighting, it can also include victims of a religious conflict, such as children. among mainstream Muslims, all Palestinians who have died as a result of Israeli actions are martyrs, whether they were active fighters or not.

but sure, there are other ways they could’ve meant it and I won’t defend those.

Also, Rivkah Brown is Jewish, if I’m not mistaken, so while she can hold what some might consider antisemitic views or tweet antisemitic things, I think it is important to consider the subject position from which she is arriving… ie, a Jewish person who unlearned certain beliefs that are deeply held by many people of her faith.

Xps Thanks for providing insight Roz.

Yes, thanks.

xpost Speak of the devil, how is that different from defending Clarence Thomas, who is Black, for saying things that might be viewed as anti-Black, or perpetuating racism?

I’m not defending her.

I didn't mean you specifically, sorry, I just meant generally.

https://x.com/yashar/status/1717266920947491118?s=20

clearly anti-semitism. i don't think anyone here will disagree on that.

This is what intifada means, and everyone knows that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_suicide_attacks

Since you are using wikipedia as your citation, here is the start of its entry for "intifada":

An intifada (Arabic: انتفاضة intifāḍah) is a rebellion or uprising, or a resistance movement. It is a key concept in contemporary Arabic usage referring to a legitimate uprising against oppression.[1]

Etymology

Intifada is an Arabic word literally meaning, as a noun, "tremor", "shivering", "shuddering".[2][3] It is derived from an Arabic term nafada meaning "to shake", "shake off", "get rid of",[2] as a dog might shrug off water, or as one might shake off sleep,[4] or dirt from one's sandals.[5]

History

The concept of intifada was first used in modern times in 1952 within the Kingdom of Iraq, when socialist and communist parties took to the streets to protest the Hashemite monarchy, with inspiration of the 1952 Egyptian Revolution.

Your claim that "everyone" accepts the meaning you've assigned is not well-attested when your own source doesn't accept it.

Everyone knows what it means *in this context*

that's why the first intifada only included a single suicide bombing in its four years. please be serious

Roz, thank you for your perspective. I'm sorry that the discourse is upsetting and exhausting for you. I can't even imagine, but I am glad you felt comfortable saying so in this thread.

Josh, I am sorry that your little girl is going through that. It breaks my heart.

Appreciate those who have made heartfelt posts.

Others, you may get tired of it, but I just feel like repeating

This post observed that lot of the hatred being stirred up is coming from people who are neither Jewish nor Palestinian.

Sounds about right.
― Josh in Chicago, Monday, October 23, 2023 1:52 PM bookmarkflaglink

I should stress, my little girl is now 16, lol, which in some ways makes it tougher! When she gets mad it's a grown-up sort of mad, which is also how she has the willpower to stat silent and stew. And then she vents when she gets home.

sorry i got bent out of shape. i just think "glory to our martyrs" is the kind of thing people have said for thousands of years in the middle of a war. it's not great. but i don't see it as antisemitic. i'm sure there are a range of views on this though!

I haven’t been posting much on these threads (as a Muslim living in a Muslim majority country as well as possibly the only? Muslim on ilx, I find much of the discourse upsetting and exhausting) but just wanted to add some context re the phrase:

Martyrdom (shaheed) in Islam doesn’t necessarily refer only to people who die in fighting, it can also include victims of a religious conflict, such as children. among mainstream Muslims, all Palestinians who have died as a result of Israeli actions are martyrs, whether they were active fighters or not.

but sure, there are other ways they could’ve meant it and I won’t defend those.

― Roz, Wednesday, October 25, 2023 3:38 PM (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

not the only! i'm here sometimes. i...don't know that it would be edifying for me to share how i've been feeling in the last few days on ilx, though.

I never knew that horseshoe (or Roz) - and tbh I never really know what religion or nationality anyone is unless they lost about it - but I think we all benefit from hearing how you feel about things, if you’re inclined

Some fucked up stuff reportedly happening in Dagestan/Chechnya right now, where I guess anti-semitism has long been a problem for the relative handful of Jews (Mountain Jews!) still there.

Also https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F9pFazEWgAABpH1?format=jpg&name=large

the whole conflict is a hate crime-generating machine, against Jews, Muslims, and Arabs. Encouraged by all the worst people around the globe.

My brother in law was walking in a mostly Jewish neighborhood and someone called the cops on him, worried that he was a Nazi skinhead in the area to kill Jews. His hair is short but not that short.

what happened at cornell?

oh, addressed in this https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/30/politics/biden-administration-college-campuses-antisemitism/index.html

Saw a clip of a masked guy in Harvard square tearing down those hostage posters, praising Hamas, saying Hitler should have finished the job, etc. But who knows exactly what that dude's deal was, could have just been stirring shit. May have been doxxed already, for all I know.

i think it’s pretty clear what this guys “deal” is

I meant, it could have been a masked white dude for all I know trying to start shit. What my buddy Alex Jones likes to call a "false flag." But sure, it could have also been what it sounded like, a guy that really likes Hamas and really hates Jews.

American Neo-Nazis are well-versed in stirring shit and they're much more active since 2015. There's nothing about that action that doesn't fit their M.O.

Yeah, that's why I said I didn't know his deal. I mean, regardless, he hates Jews. Here's the video if people want to see it. I didn't post it because I'm not convinced the woman taking the video is necessarily operating in good faith, either.

Students confront a masked guy ripping down hostage posters at Harvard Square.

“They should be all exterminated, every single one of them and their kids, their mothers, their children, everybody just like Hitler did.” pic.twitter.com/6swqemOFNO

— Kassy Dillon (@KassyDillon) October 30, 2023

There's a whole bunch of these tearing down hostage poster videos, from seemingly disparate types of people

Thats actually the first one I've seen where the person is masked

So speaking of, what *is* the deal with the posters? Why are people taking them down?