Is this anti-semitism?

1994. and hutsell has apologized and been forgiven by Bialik a long time ago. I think it just came up again in some podcast.

she mentioned the Bradley Cooper prosthetic in the Variety piece

it's also part of a whole "package" on antisemitism in Hollywood: https://variety.com/h/antisemitism-and-hollywood/

It came up in the essay she wrote, which was published a couple of days ago. Just her talking through some things that have clearly stuck with her since she was a kid. She doesn't mention Hutsell by name; EW reached out to Hutsell for a statement, which is in that EW link. Fwiw, Hutsell says even back then she didn't feel comfortable with it, but was threatened with firing if she didn't wear the prosthetic.

Follow-up on the story I posted yesterday.

BREAKING: Tube driver who led 'free Palestine' chant on London Underground train suspended, TfL says

🔗 Read more below https://t.co/Us4R0Et24r

— Sky News (@SkyNews) October 23, 2023

That article doesn't mention antisemitism

as the reason for the action taken, I mean.

"Informed protest can bring change. But on-trend bandwagons can cause rifts and fear in communities, increasing the threat to the safety of some passengers traveling among those crowds."

In what universe would a subway driver not get suspended or sacked for leading any kind of political chant over the loudspeaker? Also why is this in this thread? It just seems like baiting tbh.

it would seem that xyzzzz is including anti-palestinian and anti-arab prejudice under the umbrella of anti-semitism. technically speaking this has an argument in its favor, but it does rather muddy up the usually accepted meaning that solely addresses anti-jewish prejudice. seems like his recent posts could fit more comfortably in the British politics or Gaza war threads, but thread drift is inescapable.

Did this driver do anything other than join in with a chant of "Free, free Palestine"? Or are you telling me this is chant is Anti-Semitic in the first place?

xxxp - I am following this from the discussion yesterday, where we talked about what chants are acceptable or not.

And no, no driver should be sacked for a chant.

Lol or at least this chant, unless you think it's hate speech.

fuck off and start your own thread

What thread, what are you talking about?

I can't find it now, but I was reading a post in r/Jewish which talked about how some of the most supportive and kindest gestures towards Jewish-American people since the start of the Israel-Hamas was have been coming from Palestinian-American people and vice versa.

This post observed that lot of the hatred being stirred up is coming from people who are neither Jewish nor Palestinian.

Elsewhere somebody asked, wait - what were Roger Waters and Marc Lamont Hill doing at a Palestinian Writers Festival? Are they Palestinian?

This post observed that lot of the hatred being stirred up is coming from people who are neither Jewish nor Palestinian.

In what universe would a subway driver not get suspended or sacked for leading any kind of political chant over the loudspeaker?

They wouldn't be sacked. They are pretty strongly unionized over here.

Sky News did a low profile clarification/weak apology on behalf of the grotesquely thick Kay Burley for attributing/making up an inflammatory quote to the Palestine ambassador Husam Zomlot. Two weeks later, when it has already done the damage.

Hopefully for their indiscretion they will not have to reckon with The Full Force Of The Law™

(the train driver that is)

xp Saying her statement was "potentially misleading" is . . . not even a weak apology.

Oh that's helpful. Yeah that does make it seem vindictive and that is non-obvious to a casual observer not familiar with unionization of Tube drivers. And I do see what that has to do with the discussion of whether a chant is anti-semitic, given the way it could be a flimsy pretext to stomp on workers where you are looking for one. Sort of like how copyright infringement can be used to suppress speech.

I really don't know a good way to articulate this, but nowadays I think it's very difficult to take almost any factual premise for granted or to assume things are obvious to everyone. Because the spectrum of what is accepted as fact has been stretched so far. My brother thinks this makes it very difficult to change anyone's mind nowadays. I don't know.

xp to Tom D

Meant to say, I can't even tell as a factual matter if the chant was over the train's public address system or through a megaphone.

If it was over the public address system - I am struck at its clarity, it's nothing like the NYC subway announcements when I lived there

Sky News did a low profile clarification/weak apology on behalf of the grotesquely thick Kay Burley for attributing/making up an inflammatory quote to the Palestine ambassador Husam Zomlot. Two weeks later, when it has already done the damage.

She's at it again this morning, asking a government minister what they have to say about a tube driver being suspended for leading a chant of "From the river to the sea..." The minister didn't correct her.

Excuse my ignorance, but Kay Burley is a broadcaster and the original incident was that she falsely attributed "Israel had it coming” to Husam Zomlot, the most senior Palestinian diplomat in the UK, when Hamas attacked, correct?

And now Kay Burley has inaccurately reported the tube driver as chanting "From the river to the sea" when the driver was chanting "Free, Free," correct?

Sorry for being absolutely dense, but is there a connection between these incidents and antisemitism?

I'm responding to a post on this thread, where else should I respond to it?

The point is that the Home Secretary of this country (sorry it's not the USA, but there are other countries in the world) is pressing to have various chants prosecuted by the police as hate speech, so I'd say it belongs on a thread asking "Is this anti-semitism?" because are these chants anti-semitic?

Got it.

are these chants anti-semitic?

So if you are asking specifically about the chant "From the river to the sea," of course it belongs in this thread as I posted about three times that this is a good thread to follow it up on.

I am open to the case that it is or isn't, but when a non-zero number of sources have argued that it might be antisemitic - then even as a completely secular Jewish person I am going to pay some attention to that.

symsymsym cited this article for discussion generally on the meaning and history of "from the river to the sea"

I thought this article on the different things meant by the phrase was illuminating, was planning to share it in the other thread where the topic was brought up:

https://forward.com/opinion/415250/from-the-river-to-the-sea-doesnt-mean-what-you-think-it-means/

― symsymsym, Saturday, October 21, 2023 9:50 AM bookmarkflaglink

and it seemed to me that this quote from that article generated some discussion about whether Hamas had distanced itself in 2017 from its initial 1988 charter:

With Fatah seen as selling out, Hamas picked up the call for a free Palestine “from the river to the sea.” It sought to burnish its own anti-colonial bona fides at the expense of Fatah. And although many people point to Hamas’s 1988 charter as evidence of its hostility to Jews, in fact the group long ago distanced itself from that initial document, seeking a more explicit anti-colonial stance. Moreover, its 2017 revised charter makes even clearer that its conflict is with Zionism, not with Jews.

Then there was a citation to a news story about the 2017 charter https://www.latimes.com/world/la-fg-hamas-charter-20170501-story.html

And then to the Guardian article you quoted.

So happy to pick up the discussion at any of these points.

My secularish Jewish take is that the verse isn’t antisemitic, and the insistence that the verse is tarred by antisemitic association is agenda-led.

I think the verse might make some Jewish (and non-Jewish) people feel uncomfortable. But it’s okay to make people uncomfortable, that’s not the same thing as antisemitism. Additionally if you are an oppressor (whether Jewish or not) and it makes you feel uncomfortable - then good.

My secularish Jewish take is that the verse isn’t antisemitic, and the insistence that the verse is tarred by antisemitic association is agenda-led.

I think the verse might make some Jewish (and non-Jewish) people feel uncomfortable. But it’s okay to make people uncomfortable, that’s not the same thing as antisemitism. Additionally if you are an oppressor (whether Jewish or not) and it makes you feel uncomfortable - then good.

What do people here think of this initiative?

An academic friend of mine is running a series of teach-ins (mostly in east London but occasionally on Zoom) for Jewish people to unlearn the Zionism they've been taught by their family, at school or in other communal spaces.

Mutuals DM me for details. Otherwise please email.

— Rivkah Brown (@rivkahbrown) October 24, 2023

sounds good

And yours are fair too -- I mean there are reasons my wife's family left Israel. And unfortunately there's a kind of vicious cycle that has occurred where people who are less ideologically driven and open to compromise are also less likely to stay there, whereas the ideologically driven are more likely to move there.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, October 21, 2023 7:19 PM (three days ago) bookmarkflaglink

just to continue this conversation from 3 days ago...something that compounds this effect is that Israel allows absolutely no absentee voting, unless you're active duty in the military. So if you get fed up and leave, you lose your vote. There is no moderating effect from the Israeli diaspora.

What do people here think of this initiative?

Rivkah Brown
@rivkahbrown
·
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An academic friend of mine is running a series of teach-ins (mostly in east London but occasionally on Zoom) for Jewish people to unlearn the Zionism they've been taught by their family, at school or in other communal spaces.

Mutuals DM me for details. Otherwise please email.
2:00 AM · Oct 24, 2023

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, October 24, 2023 3:56 AM bookmarkflaglink

For those who don't see Twitter embeds, xyzzz is posting a post from Rivkah Brown.

When I think of Rivkah Brown I seem to recall she deleted a tweet that seemed to celebrate the October 7 massacre. I believe xyzzz knows this.

And to Felicity/others who were troubled by this - idk if you care at this point or it matters (as we'll have different readings on the Z word) but as it makes you stressed out I won't say it on the Israel thread anymore.

― xyzzzz__, Thursday, October 19, 2023 9:41 AM bookmarkflaglink

xyzzz, are you going to be following me around ILX forever on other threads quoting Tweets that use Zionism in that way. I co sider you a friend but it is starting to feel like harassment.

This has nothing to do with you, Felicity. There are more people who post here than you. Obviously, you could comment on Rivkah's initiative, but I am not asking you or anyone in specific to comment.

I did say I won't be saying the Z word but that was a post by Rivkah, who is also a Jewish journalist, and I was wondering about that initiative with her academic colleague, and what people here thought about it.

And, as regards to her previous posting, she posted further to clarify. You may not accept it but there it was. I wouldn't say she supports Hamas.

^ ^ ^

You asked people what they thought.

I am also a person, and I told you what I thought.

But you are saying I am specifically following you around, that this veers on harassment. That's bullshit.

My secularish Jewish take is that the verse isn’t antisemitic, and the insistence that the verse is tarred by antisemitic association is agenda-led.

I think the verse might make some Jewish (and non-Jewish) people feel uncomfortable. But it’s okay to make people uncomfortable, that’s not the same thing as antisemitism. Additionally if you are an oppressor (whether Jewish or not) and it makes you feel uncomfortable - then good.

― Chuck_Tatum, Tuesday, October 24, 2023 2:04 AM bookmarkflaglink

That's all fair. I don't have a crystallized opinion on it either way.

If you say it is bullshit I believe you xyzzz. I can drop it.

Rivkah Brown is a little online for my liking and reminds me of the tunnel-visioned comrades from my student union who could always be guaranteed to make a bad situation worse, but she's young, she apologised, it's okay to say stupid things, not everyone is Trump. I'm not sure that those unlearning lessons are going to reach useful audiences, but I'd 100% sign up for a "How to argue with a pro-Israeli family member" class.

I don't know who Rivkah Brown is, but imo her post does not appear to be in good faith (if you pardon the pun). I'm all for conversations, but I'm not really for conversion, especially when it starts from a patronizing place.

Funnily enough your mention of "conversion" often speaks to a manner of talk in left-wing circles. So let's not talk communism but how about work, wages, conditions, which can easily go in that kind of direction.

Just see it as politics but it's just not on for many ppl.

Days that my Newham pro-Palestine parents' group went without someone saying something outrageously antisemitic and then doubling down when I (calmly) said I wasn't comfortable with it: Two. (I left and told the admin why)

Two days is a good start.

This Rivkah Brown Tweet has been deleted already. Not sure what to make of this, but yeah . . . doubling down

That tweet got quote tweeted by a few saying it was AS, and she was attacked in strong terms (she takes a lot of shit on twitter generally).

I didn't think it was but it served as the main reason for me to use this thread to ask.

Looks like this is why it was deleted.

Daily Express journo upon seeing a Jew mention another Jew offering to speak to Jews about a Jewish experience:
I MUST HOUND THEM OUT OF PUBLIC LIFE https://t.co/sWb6FpIKWB

— jewdⒶs // ייִדהודה (@jewdas) October 24, 2023