Is this anti-semitism?

idk. thinking about it, i respect that a lot. the ones who speak when nobody's listening. i was in a bad headspace this morning, hell, am still in a bad headspace, but it's nice to be reminded that speaking up for what's right is worth doing, even if nobody really wants to hear it.

In one of the Chotiner NYer interviews, this is what Nathan Thrall said about it:

I very much disagree with the entire premise of the protests over the judicial reform, which are based on the assumption by both sides that Israeli democracy is at stake. I do not see how any definition of democracy can include a situation in which one in ten Israeli Jews lives in the occupied territories and has full rights—voting rights, civil rights—and, when they go to and from their workplaces and their homes, they do not cross an international border. When the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics publishes the number of Jews and Arabs in the country, it lists the Jews living in the settlements. It doesn’t say that they’re living abroad. When the people vote in the settlements, they do not cast absentee ballots; in every sense, these people live inside the state of Israel alongside millions of people of a different ethnic group who are deprived of basic civil rights. That has existed for decades.

― symsymsym, Friday, October 20, 2023 11:27 AM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I think this is right in a certain analytical sense and yet I don't completely agree with it. Because democracy doesn't exist in any perfect state and is always in flux, and even where it has not been realized, having more freedom to push for it is better than having less freedom to do so. It's still better to live in a democracy that isn't a democracy for all but where it is still possible to push to make it a democracy for all, vs living in a totalitarian state where any dissent is quashed. The judicial reforms would have moved Israel significantly closer to the latter. I don't think that the protests "prove Israel is a true democracy" or "prove that Israel is good" but it proves that people are not ready to completely give up on the possibility that it can become more democratic for all.

I think this is right in a certain analytical sense and yet I don't completely agree with it. Because democracy doesn't exist in any perfect state and is always in flux, and even where it has not been realized, having more freedom to push for it is better than having less freedom to do so. It's still better to live in a democracy that isn't a democracy for all but where it is still possible to push to make it a democracy for all, vs living in a totalitarian state where any dissent is quashed. The judicial reforms would have moved Israel significantly closer to the latter. I don't think that the protests "prove Israel is a true democracy" or "prove that Israel is good" but it proves that people are not ready to completely give up on the possibility that it can become more democratic for all.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

hell, maybe the protesters have different reasons or feelings about democracy! collectively they might form some of, i don't know. popular front, or something!

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/montypython/images/e/e6/JudeanPeoplesFront.png/revision/latest?cb=20210409144838

Goddamit

https://themoviescreenscene.files.wordpress.com/2020/07/aaaaaaaa-4.jpg?w=1024

fair point man alive

Appreciate both your comments.

From the article Tom D. posted in the Israel-Palestine thread:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/its-simply-a-call-for-freedom-marchers-defend-contentious-slogan-at-london-palestine-protest

Ruhal Tarafder had arrived with his family to register “disgust with the UK government and its complicity in war crimes”. The 49-year-old said he was happy not to sing “From the river to the sea” if it offended the Jewish community. “It’s not a problematic term for me, but if people have a problem with it, then there are millions of other things that could be sung.”

His two children were more preoccupied with stopping the killing. Five-year-old Ibrahim – barely audible over the roar of a police helicopter – pleaded: “Let Gaza live.”

His brother Salahadeen, seven, shared a similarly pithy message for global politicians: “I just wish they would debate more.”

Ibrahim and Salahadeen otm

fair point man alive

― symsymsym, Sunday, 22 October 2023 01:45 (thirty-one minutes ago) link

And yours are fair too -- I mean there are reasons my wife's family left Israel. And unfortunately there's a kind of vicious cycle that has occurred where people who are less ideologically driven and open to compromise are also less likely to stay there, whereas the ideologically driven are more likely to move there.

"In the eyes of the home secretary, however, Herman is an antisemite. Last week, Suella Braverman intervened on the issue, saying it is “widely understood” that the chant calls for the destruction of Israel."

Look at who else is saying this slogan is AS.

"Free, free Palestine" also not ok according to the Police

The Conservative Minister for London referred to the protests as an "on-trend bandwagon." They are well aware that the tide is turning, and that Israeli propaganda and lies are losing influence. The people stand with Palestine 🇵🇸♥️ https://t.co/a9o81KNe3g pic.twitter.com/Kbyb1dYGtW

— #BlackLivesMatterUK (@ukblm) October 22, 2023

xyzzz, what is your point?

We were having this conversation in the context of the Penn incident.

Real question: One of the other speakers people were upset about at the Palestian Writes festival was Marc Lamont Hill, because he once said, "From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free." Protestors were also chanting that after the walkout at Penn the other day. Is that phrase antisemitic?

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes), Thursday, October 19, 2023 7:37 AM bookmarkflaglink

Second of all, you are not the best barometer of what is AS. As demonstrated just very recently in this thread.

You are a real cuddle bunny in person. But the absolute tone deafness in suggesting to a Jewish American person that you know best how to identify anti-semiticism after stoking the flames yourself is a bit hard to take. Is this backlash?

I get that AS has been twisted and toxified in the UK. And I am sorry that's happened.

I don't speak for everyone. But here I would say AS dog whistles and codes are something people keep an eye on, and people are asking in good faith because they genuinely don't know. It doesn't merit snark to the degree they are getting it, I don't think.

People in my city are also heavily armed and extremely unpredictable. So while I appreciate the suggestion to speak to someone who has a hang glider pinned to their backpack, no, I am not going to do that.

"xyzzz, what is your point?"

That you've pulled out quotes from the piece that are agreeing with the opinion that "from the river to the sea" is seen as aggressive by some (veering towards the AS) while not pulling out what our racist home secretary thinks of it?

President Keyes can look at the range of opinion on that slogan on the other thread.

I don't speak for anyone. I am no barometer of opinion but if a thing I said gets dragged here I am going to speak.

---
So while I appreciate the suggestion to speak to someone who has a hang glider pinned to their backpack, no, I am not going to do that.

― felicity, Sunday, 22 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Wasn't asking you to speak. But that they should be spoken to internally by the group they are with, perhaps? In the UK the Met Police are trying to find people that are doing this and I don't think that's a solution. That was my point.

bad faith actors agree with points that can be twisted to further their agenda all the time, doesn't really reflect on the point itself either way

(tbc I agree with you re: the actual chant, but nevertheless)

That you've pulled out quotes from the piece that are agreeing with the opinion that "from the river to the sea" is seen as aggressive by some (veering towards the AS) while not pulling out what our racist home secretary thinks of it?

Agree that neither of of us quoted the UK's racist home secretary when quoting from the same article.

Here is what you quoted:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/21/its-simply-a-call-for-freedom-marchers-defend-contentious-slogan-at-london-palestine-protest

― The First Time Ever I Saw Gervais (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

Lol.

"Teacher Philip Grayson seemed incredulous when told the slogan he had been singing moments earlier had been labelled antisemitic. “Really? I genuinely had no idea.” The 47-year-old added: “I hated Corbyn for how he behaved on this issue.”"

― xyzzzz__, Saturday, October 21, 2023 11:47 AM bookmarkflaglink

Not sure why it's only my job to quote Braverman.

Wasn't asking you to speak. But that they should be spoken to internally by the group they are with, perhaps? In the UK the Met Police are trying to find people that are doing this and I don't think that's a solution. That was my point.

― xyzzzz__, Sunday, October 22, 2023 3:17 AM bookmarkflaglink

That sounds absolutely fascist and horrible. I am sorry the police are doing that.

there is a builder down the road from me with "Free Palestine" on his van, which in any normal democratic country couldn't possibly be something that could get you in trouble with the law.

No it should not. I don't think "Free Palestine" is problematic at all. Really sad if that's become an issue.

I quoted Ruhal Tarafder, the protester from that Guardian article, because he seemed to think using other words than the one phrase was no big deal. I found the small accommodation a moving gesture of support to Jewish people. That's all.

Not sure why it's only my job to quote Braverman.

― felicity, Sunday, 22 October 2023 bookmarkflaglink

I quoted that bit at Tom D to point out how The Guardian are still finding time to get any anti-Corbyn line, even at this time when he has gone back to being a backbench politician.

Not applying for a job on this but I wanted to point out that there are some terrible people pushing a line that any slogans and chanting is bad, and that given the context you could be arrested by the cops or sacked from your workplace, or harassed. That's all.

That is terrible. I am sorry about that.

Meanwhile I wondering if you are reading the stories people are posting in this thread about what is going on in the US. If you have I dont remember you acknowledging them.

There was just a university professor put on leave for posting on Twitter:

"One group of ppl we have easy access to in the US is all these zionist journalists who spread propaganda & misinformation,” she wrote. “They have houses w addresses, kids in school. They can fear their bosses, but they should fear us more.” [knife, axe, blood, blood, blood emoji]

This idea that people need to shut up if they don't precisely agree on a consensus of what chants and slogans mean or be ridiculed and shamed for even asking is something I just don't understand.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/detroit-synagogue-president-found-fatally-stabbed-home-rcna121559

xp - not telling anyone to shut up, merely putting across what's going on in the UK.

I'll stop by on US threads only now and then

I know. That wasn't to you.

Ok

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/detroit-synagogue-president-found-fatally-stabbed-home-rcna121559

This doesn't appear to be linked to the current situation in Israel/Gaza btw.

Yeah, as the subhead says, "Detroit's police chief urged the public not to speculate on motive."

That didn't stop all the online weirdos from using it to attack Rashida Talib

Yeah, that is/was ... weird.

I can't find it now but I thought Tlaib actually said she had considered Woll a friend. Woll was apparently very involved in Jewish-Muslim community relations.

I think "don't speculate on motive" means just that. There is nothing pointing to it either being linked or not linked to the Israel/Gaza situation. She seems to be a visible community member so it doesn't seem impossible, but I'm also not about to assume anything.

xp Yes, she said that on Facebook, which predictably was not enough to mollify Palestinian-haters.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/detroit-synagogue-president-found-fatally-stabbed-home-rcna121559

This doesn't appear to be linked to the current situation in Israel/Gaza btw.

But is it antisemitism?

Detroit police have no evidence to suggest it is... yet.

https://variety.com/2023/tv/focus/mayim-bialik-jewish-nose-1235758505/

https://ew.com/tv/melanie-hutsell-regrets-snl-prosthetic-nose-mayim-bialik-blossom-sketch/

How did this come up now? Wasn't that sketch extremely long ago?

1994. and hutsell has apologized and been forgiven by Bialik a long time ago. I think it just came up again in some podcast.

she mentioned the Bradley Cooper prosthetic in the Variety piece

it's also part of a whole "package" on antisemitism in Hollywood: https://variety.com/h/antisemitism-and-hollywood/

It came up in the essay she wrote, which was published a couple of days ago. Just her talking through some things that have clearly stuck with her since she was a kid. She doesn't mention Hutsell by name; EW reached out to Hutsell for a statement, which is in that EW link. Fwiw, Hutsell says even back then she didn't feel comfortable with it, but was threatened with firing if she didn't wear the prosthetic.

Follow-up on the story I posted yesterday.

BREAKING: Tube driver who led 'free Palestine' chant on London Underground train suspended, TfL says

🔗 Read more below https://t.co/Us4R0Et24r

— Sky News (@SkyNews) October 23, 2023

That article doesn't mention antisemitism

as the reason for the action taken, I mean.

"Informed protest can bring change. But on-trend bandwagons can cause rifts and fear in communities, increasing the threat to the safety of some passengers traveling among those crowds."

In what universe would a subway driver not get suspended or sacked for leading any kind of political chant over the loudspeaker? Also why is this in this thread? It just seems like baiting tbh.

it would seem that xyzzzz is including anti-palestinian and anti-arab prejudice under the umbrella of anti-semitism. technically speaking this has an argument in its favor, but it does rather muddy up the usually accepted meaning that solely addresses anti-jewish prejudice. seems like his recent posts could fit more comfortably in the British politics or Gaza war threads, but thread drift is inescapable.

Did this driver do anything other than join in with a chant of "Free, free Palestine"? Or are you telling me this is chant is Anti-Semitic in the first place?

xxxp - I am following this from the discussion yesterday, where we talked about what chants are acceptable or not.

And no, no driver should be sacked for a chant.

Lol or at least this chant, unless you think it's hate speech.

fuck off and start your own thread