Is this anti-semitism?

there are so many things around the tropic thunder movie that i do not understand. the meta-thunder

Time Magazine's Stephanie Z weighs in:

Bradley Cooper both directed and stars in the picture, which has already courted some controversy over the prosthetic nose he chose to wear for the role. (Bernstein was Jewish; Cooper is not.) Some have seen Cooper’s choice as anti-Semitic, though Bernstein’s children, and the Anti-Defamation League, have defended it. On the quieter side of the argument are those who simply find a fantastic honker insanely attractive. Cooper’s nose is perfectly fine, but Bernstein had a great, distinctive, sexy one. If you’re playing a character who was wildly alluring, to both men and women, why wouldn’t you want to emphasize one of his most distinguishing features?

"fantastic honker"

My better half is on board with that. She thinks Adrien Brody is the sexiest man alive.

Seems strange to keep pushing this argument when a number of Jewish posters itt have expressed discomfort with it.

(To be clear, I'm not agreeing with her and I think this movie is going to annoy me more than any other this Oscar season.)

Fantastic Honkers (and Where to Find Them)

I don't mind Zacharek's take apart from the disingenuous "On the quieter side of the argument are those..." instead of, like, "Meanwhile here's my thirsty two cents..."

I'm a not very hot, in fact quite an ugly bassa with a quite large arabic looking nose. I like it because it makes me feel and look less British. I inherited it from my mum who hated her big nose so much she used to scratch it off in all the family photo albums.

Love a prominent nose. Rhinoplasty should be banned.

I also love big noses. Small noses are fine too, but it's sad to see people think they need to be the default. Noses are such a point of natural character. I could see wanting a rhinoplasty if it was very deformed, or if they had trouble breathing, but the problem is that people think that prominent=deformed. Mine isn't too big, I don't think, but it's always been a little crooked. Idgaf.

thanks to Lily Dale for that post

Yes, extremely good post.

Musk's sudden war on the ADL seems like a much better topic for discussion here than prosthetic schnozes. So...

Except that we don't really have to ask "is this anti-semitism" about it.

lol exactly

Another one for the "not really a question" file...

I know where I'll be and what I'll be watching at 6:00 pm EASTERN time today! pic.twitter.com/PdjwJ5ZTbZ

— Cynthia McKinney PhD (@cynthiamckinney) September 11, 2023

Haven't thought about Cynthia McKinney in a long time but I guess she just kept going down the rabbit hole huh.

yeah I guess when you find yourself publicly checking in at the David Duke event, you're not trying to hide anything

just took a gander at her full twitter feed and it's antisemitism all the way down (when she isn't scarfing down whatever other conspiracy theory crosses her path, e.g. cissy houston was not really whitney's mother). she's far gone

She used to be my representative. She used to be crazy like a fox, now she's just crazy.

"She is currently a professor in Political Science at North South University in Bangladesh"

I feel like I could probably become a professor of something at Oxymoron University in Bangladesh

Distinguished Professor of Kook Nonsense at Up-is-Down-and-Down-is-Up College

CM: "And cissy houston was not really whitney's mother."

DD: "Ok, I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

People thought Whiney's mother was Cissy Houston?

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/38499445/ohio-high-school-coach-resigns-team-nazi-play-call

Oh I thought this revive was going to be about former Mexican President Vicente Fox calling out current presidential candidate Claudia Sheinbaum for being "judia y extranjera a la vez."

I would say both of those are instances of anti-semitism

Wait, so the problematic speaker at the Palestine Writes Festival at UPenn last month was....Roger Waters? Roger fucking Waters? Who is an extreme dumbass and not someone I would have put on the panel, but ... people are shitting their pants over Roger Waters? https://www.ajc.org/news/5-things-to-know-about-the-palestine-writes-event-at-penn-and-antisemitism

He was only there on Zoom because Penn banned him from the campus.

Serious question: "Zionist" in a perjorative sense, as the case has been presented to me that "in the UK it seems fine to talk about Zionism as a thing that has driven the state of Israel to this point."

I think I missed the question part of your question

Is using "Zionist" as a pejorative term (e.g., "Zionist scum") antisemitism?

Regarding Roger Waters, apparently there is a new documentary about it, and Waters vigorously denies the accusations. I'm surprised if there hasn't been robust discussion of it on ILM.

I feel like what is labelled as anti-semitism in those quarters isn't anti-semitism, but for the most part I think isn't really animus towards Israel per se but more so animus towards the US and/or The West (with Israel being seen as its extension or even proxy).

The difference with rightwingers that see Israel as pulling the strings and controlling The West, is that these guys see The West as pulling the strings and effectively controlling Israel

I’m no fan of waters in general and I think he’s gone up his own ass in a major way; having said that, the criticism here centers on that show in Germany which to me seems to be very clearly poking at the Germans, not Jews or the state of Israel. He added Anne Frank’s name to a list of activists killed by oppressive regimes; apparently because her name was followed by a Palestinian who was killed by Israeli stories doing this is antisemitic? That seems to be a purposefully obtuse reading. Likewise he’s been pulling the Nazi uniform for the Walk for some time I think, and that imagery goes back to the film and Scarfes illustrations. I do think he’s crossed a line where this used to be “insightful artistic commentary on the nation of rock stardom” to actively becoming what he used to critique. But I don’t see how it’s antisemitic. Germany bans Nazi looking stuff; they must grant some bypass for art. Waters father was killed by German soldiers. I really don’t think he’s suddenly now a Nazi. He has n love for the state of Israel. Obv most of us here are not reactionary in that way (believing that Israel is beyond reproach and criticism is inherently antisemitic).

Anyway my point being that I can believe this has doners pulling their money and calling for the firing of the school president. I really thought they had Sarsour or something at least.

I'm only a mild Floyd fan - I prefer Syd Barrett - but I thought Waters's politics were inchoate and confused, nothing to pay much attention to, so yeah, I'd never think his presence would be anything to get upset about.

Well, David Gilmour considers Roger antisemitic, so ...

Is using "Zionist" as a pejorative term (e.g., "Zionist scum") antisemitism?

I would criticize the Israeli government, rather than the concept of Zionism. If I were to hear someone say something like "Zionist scum," that would be a strong indicator to me that they are absolutely soaking in antisemitism.

It is a slippery term, some ppl for instance consider themselves zionists but oppose the settlements. Also of course while it is "rooted in nationalism" it is a nationalism predicated on seeking safety for a traditionally oppressed people (far from the only nationalism that does this, obv). Critiques of it are often slandered as anti-semitism when they're not but I think it's a term that's very likely to cause misunderstandings, try to steer clear of it.

I don’t think it’s antisemitic to criticize Israel or even to be against the concept of a Jewish state but “Zionism” gets used in antisemitic way all the time so I’m always a bit wary of it.

I tend to use ‘Israel hawks’ right now because that’s a more accurate description of who I am objecting to.

It’s a useless term at best ito broad critiques, there are people who support the existence of a nation (abstract) and are therefore supportive of the concept of Zionism. At worst yes, it is pretty antisemitic from the context of its usage! There are so many more specific terms to use to critique eliminationist rhetoric/racism towards Palestinians without pissing off people who are broadly on the same side as you.

I was a little blindsided by "zionist scum" in the other thread, although I suppose it was a technically correct description (i.e. it referred to bad/evil people who are also zionist). I presumed in the instance of its use, it was meant tautalogically (and therefore anti-semitically), albeit to demonstrate reasonably held anger.

I suppose I find the word "scum" on its own quite distracting, as it's a strong word I tend to associate with racist abuse, as in "[insert nationaity or race] scum". My grandmother, whose relatives were murdered in camps, was a Zionist who never went to Israel, but was not, as far as I know, "scum". It is possible to be pro-Palestinian, Zionist, and anti-violence at the same time, I think.

Point of order tho "tory scum" is fine.

Ha, yes, 100% agree

especially when used to describe the Labour Party frontbench

Point of order tho "tory scum" is fine.