Is this anti-semitism?

elements in the israeli state of course are eager to convince everyone to be antisemitic in precisely this way so i try to cut people who've accidentally bought into it a little personal slack

still, not listening to you or remembering what you say is a bad sign, especially when what keeps overruling you in his head seems to be the idea that everybody has a mystical genetic relationship to some soil somewhere and you can look up where in a chart-- this idea is bad for the jews and for other living things-- but it is believed so ambiently across such a wide political spectrum that he is prob just an addled liberal trying to be enthusiastic about his friend's identity. think you're on solid ground pushing back sharper next time esp if you guys are close, the way you would about anything you kept saying and he kept not listening to.

there was a billboard down the road from my house for some Jewish roots group, that said something like "we don't care which half of you is Jewish!" and had some URL.. fine, I noticed it but didn't really think about it

The next billboard, from the same org, said something like "anti-Israel = anti=semitism" - which I know is pointed squarely at Bay Area liberals... I get so sick of that false equivalency, it seems to be growing

I just wanted to say that the only people I saw even talking about the Bradley Cooper’s prosthetic nose were non-Jewish liberals who reshape Occupy Democrats on Facebook

I haven't managed to comment on the nose yet, but not because it doesn't bother me. Rather, it does bother me, but in a variety of ways too complicate for me to articulate easily, and just the thought of trying to do so is stressful so I avoid it.

My main issue with it comes down to this: when you are dealing with an ethnicity that has certain distinctive physical features, and you cast someone not of that ethnicity and then use makeup or prosthetics to imitate those features, it's not cool. Jews shouldn't be an exception to that rule, and I wonder why people can so easily make us an exception. I think part of it has to do with people's inability to grasp that "Jewish" can be both a religion and an ethnicity. People think "Oh, it's just a religion; anyone can be Jewish, so we can cast anyone." Well, sure, but if it's just a religion, then why is it a religion whose adherents are known for having big noses, and why do you feel the need to slap a big old fake nose on Bradley Cooper so he can play someone who believes in it?

And then there's the fact that this keeps happening, most noticeably in Mrs. Maisel, where you have a whole group of people who are supposed to be ethnically Jewish, played by actors who are not. And as someone whose entire Jewish identity comes from heritage, not religion, and who looks fairly typically Jewish, I don't like having someone who's supposed to look like me represented by a generic-looking pretty blonde woman with her hair dyed dark brown. I don't like the implication that Jews who look Jewish aren't pretty enough: the sense of "We want Jewish, but not too Jewish" that comes through in the casting of Rachel Brosnahan and now of Bradley Cooper. I don't like that being Jewish is being approached the way being ugly was in that Charlize Theron movie - gee, we'd love to cast a high-wattage movie star who looks the part, but we just aren't swimming in movie stars who look like this, so we'd better cast this pretty person and ugly them up for the role. And I don't like how much this is eroding people's already shaky awareness that ethnic Jews exist at all.

"And then there's the fact that this keeps happening"

people have made the argument that it isn't problematic for goys to play Jewish characters, but even if so that doesn't mean they have to do it every time.

Re Seinfeld coding there’s a gag about Elaine never having seen a foreskin but I tend to forget that’s just America in general. Also that weird bit in the ep where George is trying to convert to Latvian orthodox & the priest makes a huge deal about George pronouncing it “fadda”, it’s prob just a “what is a yoot” throwaway but the way it’s played is as an accidental tell, like his accent would disqualify him somehow

Sticking this here again, because I had honestly never thought about this stuff at all until Silverman posted this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3g3N-b2Hb4

I had forgotten that it was prompted by news that Kathryn Hahn (not Jewish) had been cast to play Joan Rivers (very Jewish) in a biopic (since tabled).

Silverman, as Felicity noted, is in Maestro, as Bernstein's sister Shirley.

My main issue with it comes down to this: when you are dealing with an ethnicity that has certain distinctive physical features, and you cast someone not of that ethnicity and then use makeup or prosthetics to imitate those features, it's not cool. Jews shouldn't be an exception to that rule, and I wonder why people can so easily make us an exception. I think part of it has to do with people's inability to grasp that "Jewish" can be both a religion and an ethnicity. People think "Oh, it's just a religion; anyone can be Jewish, so we can cast anyone." Well, sure, but if it's just a religion, then why is it a religion whose adherents are known for having big noses, and why do you feel the need to slap a big old fake nose on Bradley Cooper so he can play someone who believes in it?

The thing that separates the Cooper/Bernstein movie from the broader phenomenon you're discussing is that Cooper is not just the star of this movie — he also produced and directed it, and co-wrote the screenplay. It's his project, top to bottom.

Does he wear a fake bottom, too?

Thanks for all the recent posts. I think Lily Dale and Sarah Silverman have both touched on something that has been the source of a lot of unarticulated discomfort for me over the years. I never noticed that non-Jews often play female Jewish characters if something good happens to them, but I totally believe her.

When a supposed physical characteristic of Jewish people has been exaggerated with undeniably malicious intention in caricatures, political propaganda, pseudoscience, etc. over the years, even the supposed well-intentioned use of a false nose to play a Jewish person feels like an "eye rolly" moment of the type that Sarah Silverman describes here.

The whole Maestro nose thing just makes me anxious, like when Raja used a prosthetic nose to play Diana Vreeland on Snatch Game in Rupauls's Drag Race All Stars. It was distracting and unnecessary. And I still love Raja, btw.

I also think the nose thing is funny, just an insanely silly bad taste thing to do, so part of my Jewish identity is glad that it happened, because it’s a good story.

It's unreal in how off the mark it is, like a bit from Tropic Thunder.

From which . . . apparently Tom Cruise and Chris McQuarrie still think a Les Grossman spinoff movie is a good idea? And they credit Tropic Thunder with reviving Cruise's flagging career? So weird.

there are so many things around the tropic thunder movie that i do not understand. the meta-thunder

Time Magazine's Stephanie Z weighs in:

Bradley Cooper both directed and stars in the picture, which has already courted some controversy over the prosthetic nose he chose to wear for the role. (Bernstein was Jewish; Cooper is not.) Some have seen Cooper’s choice as anti-Semitic, though Bernstein’s children, and the Anti-Defamation League, have defended it. On the quieter side of the argument are those who simply find a fantastic honker insanely attractive. Cooper’s nose is perfectly fine, but Bernstein had a great, distinctive, sexy one. If you’re playing a character who was wildly alluring, to both men and women, why wouldn’t you want to emphasize one of his most distinguishing features?

"fantastic honker"

My better half is on board with that. She thinks Adrien Brody is the sexiest man alive.

Seems strange to keep pushing this argument when a number of Jewish posters itt have expressed discomfort with it.

(To be clear, I'm not agreeing with her and I think this movie is going to annoy me more than any other this Oscar season.)

Fantastic Honkers (and Where to Find Them)

I don't mind Zacharek's take apart from the disingenuous "On the quieter side of the argument are those..." instead of, like, "Meanwhile here's my thirsty two cents..."

I'm a not very hot, in fact quite an ugly bassa with a quite large arabic looking nose. I like it because it makes me feel and look less British. I inherited it from my mum who hated her big nose so much she used to scratch it off in all the family photo albums.

Love a prominent nose. Rhinoplasty should be banned.

I also love big noses. Small noses are fine too, but it's sad to see people think they need to be the default. Noses are such a point of natural character. I could see wanting a rhinoplasty if it was very deformed, or if they had trouble breathing, but the problem is that people think that prominent=deformed. Mine isn't too big, I don't think, but it's always been a little crooked. Idgaf.

thanks to Lily Dale for that post

Yes, extremely good post.

Musk's sudden war on the ADL seems like a much better topic for discussion here than prosthetic schnozes. So...

Except that we don't really have to ask "is this anti-semitism" about it.

lol exactly

Another one for the "not really a question" file...

I know where I'll be and what I'll be watching at 6:00 pm EASTERN time today! pic.twitter.com/PdjwJ5ZTbZ

— Cynthia McKinney PhD (@cynthiamckinney) September 11, 2023

Haven't thought about Cynthia McKinney in a long time but I guess she just kept going down the rabbit hole huh.

yeah I guess when you find yourself publicly checking in at the David Duke event, you're not trying to hide anything

just took a gander at her full twitter feed and it's antisemitism all the way down (when she isn't scarfing down whatever other conspiracy theory crosses her path, e.g. cissy houston was not really whitney's mother). she's far gone

She used to be my representative. She used to be crazy like a fox, now she's just crazy.

"She is currently a professor in Political Science at North South University in Bangladesh"

I feel like I could probably become a professor of something at Oxymoron University in Bangladesh

Distinguished Professor of Kook Nonsense at Up-is-Down-and-Down-is-Up College

CM: "And cissy houston was not really whitney's mother."

DD: "Ok, I'm going to have to ask you to leave."

People thought Whiney's mother was Cissy Houston?

https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/38499445/ohio-high-school-coach-resigns-team-nazi-play-call

Oh I thought this revive was going to be about former Mexican President Vicente Fox calling out current presidential candidate Claudia Sheinbaum for being "judia y extranjera a la vez."

I would say both of those are instances of anti-semitism

Wait, so the problematic speaker at the Palestine Writes Festival at UPenn last month was....Roger Waters? Roger fucking Waters? Who is an extreme dumbass and not someone I would have put on the panel, but ... people are shitting their pants over Roger Waters? https://www.ajc.org/news/5-things-to-know-about-the-palestine-writes-event-at-penn-and-antisemitism

He was only there on Zoom because Penn banned him from the campus.

Serious question: "Zionist" in a perjorative sense, as the case has been presented to me that "in the UK it seems fine to talk about Zionism as a thing that has driven the state of Israel to this point."

I think I missed the question part of your question

Is using "Zionist" as a pejorative term (e.g., "Zionist scum") antisemitism?

Regarding Roger Waters, apparently there is a new documentary about it, and Waters vigorously denies the accusations. I'm surprised if there hasn't been robust discussion of it on ILM.

I feel like what is labelled as anti-semitism in those quarters isn't anti-semitism, but for the most part I think isn't really animus towards Israel per se but more so animus towards the US and/or The West (with Israel being seen as its extension or even proxy).

The difference with rightwingers that see Israel as pulling the strings and controlling The West, is that these guys see The West as pulling the strings and effectively controlling Israel

I’m no fan of waters in general and I think he’s gone up his own ass in a major way; having said that, the criticism here centers on that show in Germany which to me seems to be very clearly poking at the Germans, not Jews or the state of Israel. He added Anne Frank’s name to a list of activists killed by oppressive regimes; apparently because her name was followed by a Palestinian who was killed by Israeli stories doing this is antisemitic? That seems to be a purposefully obtuse reading. Likewise he’s been pulling the Nazi uniform for the Walk for some time I think, and that imagery goes back to the film and Scarfes illustrations. I do think he’s crossed a line where this used to be “insightful artistic commentary on the nation of rock stardom” to actively becoming what he used to critique. But I don’t see how it’s antisemitic. Germany bans Nazi looking stuff; they must grant some bypass for art. Waters father was killed by German soldiers. I really don’t think he’s suddenly now a Nazi. He has n love for the state of Israel. Obv most of us here are not reactionary in that way (believing that Israel is beyond reproach and criticism is inherently antisemitic).

Anyway my point being that I can believe this has doners pulling their money and calling for the firing of the school president. I really thought they had Sarsour or something at least.