When Santana was great!

Yeah it's (not)funny this week at least three big terfy bs bombs from music icons (iswis) but all offered up in v different ways (Roisin on social media somewhat uncoaxed, Alice Cooper in an interview response where he just started digging a hole out of practically nothing and Santana on stage).

look i have no interest in trying to defend any boomers out there that will probably end up disappointing me far too soon, but i was heartened to see Dead & Co. including trans flags and imagery in some of their screen projections over the past two summers. small beans, to be sure, but given what we heard from Santana and Cooper this week, i'll take some small solace in knowing there are other boomers that aren't terrible.

or Dylan, Joni, Mick or Keith (afaik...)

― ROSE, W. AXL UNITED STATES INDIVIDUAL (morrisp)

roger waters supports trans rights but he also supports putin so, uh.

to me boomer is a state of mind, maaaaan. i've known boomers who were like 20, you'd tell a joke and they'd say "i don't get it" like you were supposed to explain it to them. that's peak boomer imo!

That's just people, IMO

(I don't think it's great to use a generation name as a put-down, but this is probably a discussion for a different place)

if he had choked on his own vomit and died when he was 30 we would all have santana tattoos. well, i wouldn't but more people would. you gotta think of these things when you are young. remembering to die that is.

"When Jim Morrison died, his record sales just took a dramatic rise! Now conversely Peter Frampton, by NOT dying..." (sketch begins at 10:00)

look i have no interest in trying to defend any boomers out there that will probably end up disappointing me far too soon, but i was heartened to see Dead & Co. including trans flags and imagery in some of their screen projections over the past two summers. small beans, to be sure, but given what we heard from Santana and Cooper this week, i'll take some small solace in knowing there are other boomers that aren't terrible.

― Maxmillion D. Boosted (jon /via/ chi 2.0)

ok fwiw some celebrity who doesn't really have a stake in things either way coming out publicly in support of trans people means way more to me than someone coming out publicly in opposition to trans people. i'm not sure why i feel that way. maybe it's like... i feel like the threat to trans people comes from institutions of power. i mean what am i gonna say, oh shit carlos santana has spoken, i guess that settles The Trans Debate, time for me to detransition, hey carlos wanna help me sew this thing back on?

whereas support of trans people... i see that as an act of solidarity, of people power, though if the person supporting trans rights is also supporting vladimir putin i might perhaps have less than full confidence as to the depth of their commitment.

i also do think that i see trans rights as being a fundamentally feminist issue... men don't face threats to their bodily autonomy the way cis women and all trans people do. the opinions of radicals and feminists mean more to me than the opinions of cis dudes, no matter how much they supported radical politics in the 70s (i don't have any reason to believe that santana's support of angela davis _wasn't_ genuine).

of the three, the ones i think is the... most disappointing is roisin, even though i honestly have no fucking clue who she is. women's rights and trans rights are inextricably linked, imo.

i also do think that i see trans rights as being a fundamentally feminist issue... me

interestingly enough, someone in the Dead camp seems to think along these lines. i saw them live on June 24, 2022, the same day as the Roe decision and they opened with "Man Smart, Woman Smarter" (i know, a terrible song) with a lot of imagery of pro-choice protests, the women's march and, iirc, that's the song where they started incorporating the trans flag as well.

in honor of my good friend sang froid he doesn't like it when i boomerbait

thanks scott!! (as i stare down 65 which happens at the stroke of midnight.) yeah, i dunno. i think people can even say what santana said and still be good, decent, moral people. not everybody gets it at the same time. i find the kneejerk invective harder to deal with than what he said. being an old person i sort of preferred old liberalism where commonalities were emphasized. like putting down "human" for race, har har. now it's all about differences, which i'm not sure is a turn for the better. tear down the fences. maaaan.

whoops i can't even do italics right at my advanced age.

or Dylan, Joni, Mick or Keith (afaik...)

Joni “I went to Halloween party in blackface and then put it on an album cover” Mitchell? That Joni?

And then did a whole interview babbling about how she really felt like a Black man and started shucking and jiving Joni? Do you mean her?

lmao

Re; Alice Cooper, is that really a surprise? Guy was a thoroughly conservative Republican even before the '80s happened. He was always a George W. Bush supporter and blasted Springsteen, R.E.M., Fogerty, Mellencamp, Raitt, etc for openly opposing him, claiming that was treasonous and even (get this) a betrayal of rock n' roll. There's like a dozen and a half classic Alice Cooper cuts from the early '70s that I'll always love, but the guy himself has always been a complete tool.

OTM. Guy is classic white-knuckle cleaned-up addict who saw the light and is now just kind of a hater.

It's sad because I used to see him on e.g. Room 101, Never Mind on the Buzzcocks, probably other panel show type things here in the UK and always thought he was affable and quite charming as a person (unlike, say, Zappa or Rundgren or other oddball peers of his). Ah well.

Yeah, I've said this before, but he created a great character in the '60s called Alice Cooper, but it's as if ever since Alice's success he's been trying to backtrack and diminish everything Alice ever stood for.

And he's an extreme Christian and that colors EVERYTHING

He took the name from an accused witch, iirc.

xp Oh yeah. It's like a fungus.

Doesn't sarahell or somebody else have a whole thing about male bands names after women? Alice likely one of the first

thanks scott!! (as i stare down 65 which happens at the stroke of midnight.) yeah, i dunno. i think people can even say what santana said and still be good, decent, moral people. not everybody gets it at the same time. i find the kneejerk invective harder to deal with than what he said. being an old person i sort of preferred old liberalism where commonalities were emphasized. like putting down "human" for race, har har. now it's all about differences, which i'm not sure is a turn for the better. tear down the fences. maaaan.

― Thus Sang Freud

i think focusing on commonalities is good... we all have a lot in common for sure... me, i feel like i don't have that much different from a lot of the old hippies... i grew up listening to a lot of that kind of music, sometimes it's about getting together but sometimes it's about tuning in, turning on, and dropping out, about finding your own road in life... i'm 47 years old and at 43 i found that the world had changed, that what was possible for me had changed, and i took a different path in life. lost my wife, lost my home, lost my community, but i found myself... now if a hippie can't relate to that, well, i don't know what to say.

people call us names because of how we dress, the way we wear our hair... back in the day people used to make fun of the hippies, ask them "are you a boy or are you a girl?"... i feel like folks who grew up in that generation, playing the fillmore or whatever, got reason to understand what it feels like to be on the outside.

tear down the fences? sure... tear down the wall, motherfucker, like the airplane said back in the day... but a lot of kids today, they got walls blocking keeping them out, people spit on them, call them names, because they dress how they want, live how they want, and it's their trip, man, it's their trip, and i don't get being down on their trip. santana or alice cooper or whoever comes out after these trans kids, they're not tearing down any walls, they're building them.

he later said: “I am sorry for my insensitive comments. They don’t reflect that I want to honor and respect all person’s (sic) ideals and beliefs. I realize that what I said hurt people and that was not my intent. I sincerely apologize to the transgender community and everyone I offended,” his statement continued.

people are people and they make mistakes.

that's even a decent apology -- people these days tend to say i'm sorry *if* i offended you, which isn't really an apology.

you gotta change your evil ways, baby

When Santana was less bigoted!

“You read me wrong, my hating was not coming from a place of hate. Au contraire, Pierre!”

people can be conflicted about this -- it is totally understandable. calling them haters and bigots is *one* way of resolving their conflict.

people can be conflicted about this -- it is totally understandable. calling them haters and bigots is *one* way of resolving their conflict.

― Thus Sang Freud

well that's the thing, right? there are a lot of people out there who think that saying trans women are men _isn't_ hatred and bigotry, that there's this whole "transgender debate". and to me, that's where the real problem comes from...

see, most people don't know this, but trans people are facing a lot of bigotry and prejudice, it's really hard for trans folks right now. i know this because i'm trans myself, but most people don't know, and when they find out how bad it is they're pretty horrified by how bad what trans people are going through actually is. it's really frustrating, i wish there were more media outlets telling people what it's really like instead of pushing this "transgender debate" stuff.

one of the reasons i don't really have anything against santana for saying what he said is because i don't think he even knew that what he said was bigoted and hateful. i mean when people say bigoted and hateful things they're still responsible for the consequences of that, like people thinking they're haters and bigots, but to me, the problem isn't santana saying bigoted things, it's people not even _knowing_ that saying stuff like that is not just bigoted and hateful.

it's pretty frustrating... i've been seeing this go on for years and years now, and it just keeps getting worse and worse. and on top of that the people who really hate us - and there aren't that many of them, really - they say the same stuff as the people who just don't know. which sucks because most people asking those questions, they _don't_ know, but it's hard, sometimes, to not fall into that invective, because we've all heard those questions asked so many times by people who are just pretending, who are just looking for an excuse to hurt us.

it's not your fault if you don't know, but at the same time, you need to know what's going on here, everyone needs to know what's really going on here, for our sake and yours.

you're very forgiving and I'm not sure how the problem has now become people being too mean/hasty/judgmental towards the santanas of this world but I don't like it at all

how is being this christian about it really working right now?

i'm forgiving because i can be... it's a form of privilege i have. you're not in a position to do that... other people may expect you to be forgiving but i don't think that's a fair burden to put on you. i wrote a long thing in the roisin murphy thread that kind of goes into how i look at things... doesn't mean i'm right or anything, just how i look at things. your take carries just as much weight as mine imo.

I agree with everything in your other post and you have a much better handle on the UK situation than most (non-terf) UK progressives

I am doubtful about the claim that being this nice - or having to be this nice - is a product of privilege though

the main reason I'm doubtful is that I've seen the nicest people ever turn the other cheek towards their abusers over and over and it looks more like a survival strategy (not necessarily a healthy or successful or sustainable one) than a luxury to me

and given as you noted how much of a generational marker this has become in britain the dynamics of familial abuse are central to this movement and how it operates

Alice Cooper and the assholes from Aerosmith have been open about being Republicans for many years. They’re really in the same camp as Ted Nugent

I agree with everything in your other post and you have a much better handle on the UK situation than most (non-terf) UK progressives

I am doubtful about the claim that being this nice - or having to be this nice - is a product of privilege though

― your original display name is still visible (Left)

i don't have to post in as kind and conciliatory manner as i have tried to do in responding to thus sang froid! i made a conscious decision to do so. i'm in a position to assume good faith! that's where the privilege comes in. in the uk, quite honestly, i don't think i could do that. in the uk, i think that the most effective means y'all have to oppose entrenched transphobia is through radical direct action, stuff that draws from things like Zaps, ACT UP, that part of queer history.

for most of my life, for decades, my life was about survival. that's the most important thing, being trans, you have to survive, you have to keep yourself safe, by any means necessary. that's still the situation for most trans people today. that's another way the privilege manifests itself. transphobia affects all of us, is a threat to all of us, but it doesn't present an imminent threat to me. i can focus on other things.

i do _need_ allies, we all _need_ allies, and i guess not having to seek out allies is a privilege i don't have, but goddamn, i like the work. i really fucking enjoy doing it. i wish i could do this kind of thing full time, do outreach full time, instead of running these stupid useless reports at the bullshit job i'm paid to do. i fucking love this. i love talking to other people about my life, about my experiences. my career goal is to one day get to be gay for pay.

wait. what. there's another meaning to that term?

as far as being "christian", i consider this to be a very serious allegation. :) in my defense i would like to point out that immediately upon waking up yesterday, i posted "hail satan. baphomet is goals." to ilx... i would like to give you my personal assurance that i have not been born again since that time!

having to choose between satan and jesus is just another cis imposition as far as i'm concerned

more seriously thank you forever for being you and doing what you do - in this bubble it can be too easy to forget that being trans is actually possible in practice and having living examples to the contrary is so so important right now

awwww, my pleasure... seriously, that i am a positive role model to so many people just by, like, existing has been consistently pretty mind-blowing and awesome.