Classic or Dud: U2

Sadly this is a snooze. The takes of classic good songs aren’t any better than the originals and any hope that there’s a hidden gem amongst the more recent interpretations is soon scotched. Bono should definitely give up trying to do a falsetto.

Will make an exception for Stay (Faraway so close) which has a spectral beauty.

I think I'll take back what I said, even when you try to whittle it down to the ten best, it really is a snooze. Ah well, at least I was trying it before I actually bought it.

My daughter's at Bono's son's band tonight, wild when your kid and you are at different shows in the same city at the same time.

Someone uploaded the 1988 Grammy Awards - I skimmed through it and it’s pretty strange. I’m not sure if it’s the whole thing or not, but surprisingly U2 and Prince didn’t perform even though they were clearly there (love the look Prince gives to the camera when his AOTY nomination is announced). Most of the performers aren’t even nominees and they way they’re presented is kind of odd and primitive. Lou Reed and his band are out in some balcony entrance, then Run DMC come running out below, and Billy Crystal’s reading out the names.

U2 only appears when they win AOTY and it’s the most anticlimactic presentation I’ve seen for a top award. There’s no real build up and they just present it halfway into the show. It’s cool to see Brian Eno up there, and he even gets a special mention from Bono, who also pays respect to Prince and Springsteen. He also makes a joke acknowledging how much Christgau/The Village Voice hated them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2tiwY2LTL8

Wow that opening Whitney Houston performance is great
And the list of names of who’s appearing - wow - Steven Wright! Dwight Yoakam! Lou Reed ! Miles Davis ! Etc

I heard what sounded like a perfectly fine MOR late-era U2 song on the radio the other day, and it turned out to be by Inhaler, the band fronted by Bono's son. I think it was this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0Hilyfp_8A

Reading Bono's memoir yesterday, one of many thoughts I had was that he has bought into (and sold) the idea that everyone has that Achtung Baby was radically different and new because it was 'European', 'cool', 'futuristic', rather than 'rootsy', 'American'. OK. He even talks of how they were pursuing 'electronica' and 'dance music'.

There is clearly a kernel of truth in all this. But I also started to think that the idea quickly became a myth, which everyone has gone along with; and that it was a kind of marketing, a way of demarcating 'U2 eras' and making them easier to sell or at least describe.

How about this view: Achtung Baby was the most ROCK lp that U2 had made up to that point - save, admittedly, its immediate precursor RATTLE & HUM?

I think that's accurate.

Another odd thing, by the way, is that the idea persists that The Joshua Tree is 'about America' - again Bono himself continues to believe and promote this view. Again, at some level this must be true. But again, it's also something of an image that we've all been sold, for many years (including via literal images, cover art), and if it had been described differently we might hear it differently.

I thought about it and decided that *lyrically*, only two songs on The Joshua Tree actually mention the USA.

Two mention Central America. One is about Ireland. One the UK. One is meant to suggest Australia.

The Joshua Tree contains fewer guitar solos than Achtung Baby.

You could probably construct a counter-narrative about the LP that wasn't much about 'America' at all but about the things that people like to say Achtung Baby was about - 'European modernist soundscapes', say.

I don't mind the official standard narratives about these records, they've helped everyone 'understand' U2's career, but I can wonder whether they have limited relation to the facts of what's on the records.

Achtung Baby was radically different and new because it was 'European', 'cool', 'futuristic', rather than 'rootsy', 'American'. OK. He even talks of how they were pursuing 'electronica' and 'dance music

Perhaps somebody should have told him to purchase a David Bowie record before saying this

I feel that "Joshua Tree" was more about this romantic idea of America as a concept, which definitely lingered in the margins of "Unforgettable Fire" and was perhaps too on the nose on "Rattle & Hum." Wide open spaces, lonely highways, broad horizons, and the promises and rewards they portend (or fail to deliver), etc.

I think perhaps "Achtung" was similarly oblique about electronic music. It was more the idea of dance music than the actual execution (which sort of arrived via "Pop"). "European modernist soundscapes" does kind of broadly captures the sound of "Achtung."

The one marketing line I never understood c. "Achtung" and "Zooropa" was U2 as ironic. "Achtung" in particular has this almost oppressive dark night of the soul undercurrent to it which is the opposite of ironic, while "Zooropa" I've always thought was tinged by this pervasive sense of morning after sadness.

That's a pretty good, convincing post.

Though I would still say that the 'textures' of 'streets', 'with or without you', 'red hill mining town', are not 'American' (and that's fine).

What I meant was: they're not rock, blues, or roots -- which is what RATTLE & HUM is about, and possibly what Achtung Baby claims not to be by contrast. (Yes, there have been other kinds of music from the USA, nothing to do with such roots.)

and what R&H is "about."

The first thing I heard from Achtung Baby was "Mysterious Ways," which sounded VERY different and definitely was more interested in dance and romance than anything than all of the earnest christian leaning stuff they had done before. Keep in mind, this is from the perspective of a teenager who didn't have MTV and was not really keeping up with things.

Was the ironic aspect primarily through touring and its live presentation? I agree, I don't see it in the music at all. I wonder if they were nervous about going in the general direction of Achtung Baby, moving away from what had previously been very successful. When it worked, maybe Bono realized he could really lean into that character and totally ditch the Serious Guy routine. Or was it a way of protecting their brand so they could move back into their earlier mode if the Fly character didn't catch on? "Oh, just kidding guys, we were being ironic." I've never been a huge U2 fan, apart from Zooropa and most of Achtung Baby, but Bono's Mr. MacPhisto and the ironic distance did not do the music any service. But I don't know how much Bono's persona helps the band in general.

"Numb" being the first single from Zooropa was kinda startling.

One is meant to suggest Australia.

Van Diemen's Land is on R&H not JT.

I posted this in another thread, but I'd argue that "Night and Day" -- released a full year before Achtung -- was more of a left turn than anything on Achtung. It sounded very little (apart from Bono's voice) like what anyone expected U2 to sound like at that time.

^^ yes

They tricked themselves eventually into thinking they'd been a rock band and that's what everyone wanted from them, but even their most "rock" albums were more devoted to the groove than any cliches of rock. Which isn't to say the argument about AB doesn't work, it's maybe correct, but I don't think the whole dance/ultramodern aspect was overstated. I do think it's fair to suggest that their image as a serious rock band obscured their true talents, ones already on display before that. There was a reason imo the '90s were so creatively good for them, right down to side projects and soundtrack songs.

Assert: you're correct, it's NZ - I had read 'Auckland' and didn't remember where that was.

Tom D makes a fair point that the 'very American' R&H contains a song that's about both Ireland & Australia!

Cow Art: a point about The Fly (character) is that he is very American - Bono drawling, wearing what the memoir refers to as an outfit mainly inspired by Elvis Comeback Special - so already, by the time that 'character' appears (late 1991, and then on the tour), the 'European' idea has been diverted.

john boyle o'reilly -- who the song is dedicated to iirc -- did end up in the US (as editor of "america's oldest catholic newspaper" in fact)

What song?

I see: hats off to Mark S - I've dug out my 1988 double LP of R&H and it does say

(Dedicated to JBO'R / a Fenian poet deported from Ireland to Australia because of his poetry. It wasn't very good... '!)

Not very literate, but much more content than I had remembered.

And Mark S is quite right to say that this gives an American destination to the song in a sense.

(The text on the LP does not give JBO'R's name as initials, and U2's parentheses are not consistent.)

really wish they'd give zooropa a proper reissue and release all the outtakes from the sessions - i really wanna hear the early versions of some of the pop tracks from then, i'd be surprised if they weren't better than the pop versions

I have heard that said.

In truth, for people who
a) like official bootleg stuff (as with Dylan)
b) like U2
(which is a small minority of people) --

there must be tons, hours, of such outtakes from, eg, the RATTLE & HUM sessions, that we have never heard, that must exist.

More audio of Dylan on hammond organ in the 'Hawkmoon 269' session? 'Angel of Harlem' with and without horns? Demos of 'All I want is you'?

I expect so.

I bet that stuff exists in some state of evolution, but since the band's material often stems from jam sessions I'm not sure how worthwhile it all is. I remember when an Achtung Baby work in progress boot leaked shortly before the album's release, and it had stuff like five versions of "Salome." Sure, you can hear it evolve and get tweaked, but it mostly sounded like five sketchy unfinished versions of "Salome."

The super-coolest work in progress release I've ever heard, btw, remains the one Peter Gabriel released with the anniversary edition of "So," which featured tracks edited together from various stages of a song's evolution, resulting in stuff like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJU_MLQc2fc

I bet that would work with U2.

The middle of that "Sledgehammer" evolution clip is wonderful. It's coming together: the guitar parts are basically locked in, his keyboards almost there, the vocal choices too.

I love the Achtung Baby sessions! Had them on a cassette from a market stall.

We had no idea they would become 'Salomé' until ... about 4 months later when that B-side was released.

U2 were annoyed at this leak at the time, but I think the way things are now (with other acts), there would be some scope for a more deluxe version of such things.

imo Joshua is halfway between 'European' Unforgettable Fire and (more misguided though it is) 'American' (romantic version) Rattle & Hum. They had to squeeze those 'European' connotations out in order for them to rediscover/redefine them in the 90s.

The 'irony' grab remained but wrapping paper most of the time. With Pop Bono said the execution, if not necessarily intention, was to start at a party and end at a funeral, the lurid interface slowly being shed. That describes Achtung pretty well too I would say. Their passion for 'irony' and the consequent contrasts were more vividly highlighted on the tours (incidentally I was rewatching the 98 Santiago show only this morning. The mothers of the disappeared on Bono addressing Pinochet all within about fifteen minutes of Perfecto being blasted over the PA and Bono descending the disco lemon in 'this suit of light').

I heard what sounded like a perfectly fine MOR late-era U2 song on the radio the other day, and it turned out to be by Inhaler, the band fronted by Bono's son.

I saw Inhaler last month (sold-out show of mostly Gen Zers), and they really did come across as U2 without the baggage, the ego, the meaningfulness: just peaks and valleys of tight rock songs, anonymous and both bland and satisfying.

"With Pop Bono said the execution, if not necessarily intention, was to start at a party and end at a funeral"

This is very Bono!

Madonna used a similar line for Confessions on a Dance Floor iirc

Albeit not as gravely as 'funeral'

My daughter saw Inhaler last month, and she doesn't know U2 at all. I have no idea how they got on the Gen Z radar.

I bet it was really hard for them to get a record deal.

Y'know, paying their dues in dive bars and tiny clubs, working their way up, gathering a following, stapling flyers to light posts, etc.

Just like those scrappy underdogs Jakob Dylan, Sean Lennon, etc.

Anthony Burgess (like Paul Bowles, a notable composer himself, and certainly one of the best music writers of the 20th century) abhorred the music that Bono and The Edge composed for that Clockwork Orange musical

I don't think he liked The Beatles either!

In the last 20% or so of Bono's SURRENDER. It has taken a rather disappointing tone, perhaps in keeping with Bono's career trajectory.

He has little to say, in this stage, about songwriting or making music. The band is almost forgotten much of the time. Bono seems to be doing most things alone, or with his wife. It makes it more logical that he's now doing more things without Clayton and Mullen.

His activism, which seems very sincere and substantial, as well as his celebrity, takes him into the orbit of global leaders: Clintons, Obamas, et al. This tends to make for blandness. And Bono's sense of the political is one that I find quite problematic. It seems not to involve conflict but only consensus. But what if people in the consensus do bad things?

A bad page records a visit to Steve Jobs in Palo Alto. This already sounds unpromising. Bono wants to make an advert with Apple, citing the fact that U2's not making adverts is costing them money. (Did U2 in 2004 really need more money?) He then asks, in return, for Apple stock, and not getting that, asks for a specialised iPod to be made. Bono says that all this association with Apple makes U2 look cool. I think, and would have thought at the time, the opposite: that it looks corporate and bad.

It doesn't surprise me that Bono hangs out with Barack Obama, but his whitewashing of GW Bush's Iraq war seems discreditable. Then when D.J. Trump comes along, Bono finally attacks a public figure, saying, in rather familiar terms, that Trump is orange and bad, and that he is a symptom of the virus of populism.

It seems to me that Trump, for people who want to hold these positions, is a scapegoat. He's easy to dislike, you can say nasty things about him, and be sure that everyone will agree. OK. But criticising 'populism' and 'fake news' and 'post-truth' won't wash when you won't criticise the Bush administration - which is infamous for lying at great scale, and indeed made explicit statements about its post-truth views; and which was arguably more 'populist' than Trump in starting foreign wars of choice, demanding national obedience and staging pictures on aircraft carriers. I can still remember the hatred I felt for the US government in those days. Many people on ILX probably can too - and actual ILX threads from the time would show it. Bono doesn't remember this. He thinks things only went bad with Trump.

As I say, all this comes up because there is so little about music. Was Bono still serious about music by this point? Why are his lyrics in this era so stilted compared to decades before? He can be very self-critical or at least self-deprecating, but he doesn't seem to reflect on this.

i think bono's views are heavily skewed because bush was the sort of establishment guy that he could successfully lobby to spend more on aid for africa etc., so he can't have been that bad. there was never any chance that he could get anywhere convincing trump to spend more on foreign aid, so he could see him for what he is.

Yes - I think that is an accurate assessment of Bono's outlook.

I think Bono's views are skewed because he's an establishment guy who dodges taxes through Maltese holding companies and takes a what me worry/some of my best friends are corporations when he was exposed in the Panama Papers.

In his book he gives a paragraph to the controversy over U2's tax affairs. He says something like 'we may have gone too far'.

He said something similar, more strongly, about the time that they gave away their music to people via Apple. The puzzling thing about that story is - presumably only people with some kind of Apple music buying account received the music. (I didn't ... and I would have liked to! I bought the CD, very very cheap, a couple of years later.) So while it was described as 'U2 give everyone their unwanted music', it must really have been a minority of people.

it showed up for anyone who had an itunes account, so anyone with an iphone and anyone who'd ever used the most popular way to buy music at the time

Happy birthday, Bono!

xp I recall it was effectively undeletable too, at least until they released a software update or two.

I had iTunes on my computer, with thousands of songs on it. But I didn't receive the U2 LP. So I assume this is a difference between using iTunes and having some kind of commercial account with Apple.

I am not sure that this was a majority of pop music fans. Maybe a vocal plurality.

However, I agree with the view that people should not be given something they wouldn't want. And if it can't be deleted that's worse still.

I am near the end of the book and the one LP that Bono has not commented on is NO LINE ON THE HORIZON. The only thing he's said is 'Had we gone too far from our punk roots with that album?'. If he's serious about this he should have a chapter explaining it. U2 naturally made a big deal about that LP at the time; it shouldn't be erased from history. In fact I think it's probably better than their later records FWIW.

The 'punk roots' stuff is mostly nonsense, as eg: the LP representing their supposed return to said roots was SONGS OF INNOCENCE, which is not punk at all.

Bono: (excitedly) Gentlemen, it's an honor to have both of you here today. What brings us together?

Putin: (smirking) Bono, your charisma always intrigues me. I suppose we're here to discuss global issues and find common ground.

Blair: Indeed, Bono. We live in a complex world, and it's crucial for leaders to collaborate for the greater good. Let's get down to business.

Bono: I appreciate your perspectives, gentlemen. How about we establish a joint task force that addresses poverty, stability, and security? We can pool our expertise and engage other influential figures to drive real change.