Batman Begins: The Thread

But Gotham is not a real city. You're missing the point that the portrayal of Gotham itself is done from a fascist point of view: the idea that the common people are decadent, violent and unruly and therefore society needs a strong man to take power and restore order.

A large part of me is also wondering exactly what Tuomas was expecting from this movie; it's not like it was marketed as feel-good popcorn flick and it was directed by Christopher Nolan, a man best known for the frothy, transparent films "Memento" and "Insomnia". If you have a hardline moral code that states "vigilantism is wrong and I cannot accept or enjoy entertainment that gives it any level moral acceptability", what is making you think you'll enjoy a movie where the protagonist is a comic-book vigilante?

In fairness Dan, he may have been expecting/hoping for something like Batman Returns.

TS: "the common people" vs "the people in power". That's a non-trivial distinction that the movie spells out with a gigantic point-making sledgehammer. You are making the exact same mistake and judgement that the League of Shadows made.

(Also, my reference to way upthread to "historical context" that seemed to baffle you was in response to your thought that people with comic book baggage are viewing this differently from people without it, a point which has at lest one datapoint in Alba that refutes it.)

And frothiest of all, "Following."

??? What does that mean? Are you agreeing with me?

As I've said, I've read several enjoyable Batman stories, and they weren't problematic because they either don't focus on vigilantism (Batman fights vampires), or they're so removed from reality that it doesn't really matter (Batman fights the Joker in a fun house). Batman Returns is a good example of a "dark" Batman film that's still a lot less problematic. I didn't expect Batman Begins to be light, but I didn't expect it to be so damn serious either.

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Yes, you're right. But that's also a central dynamic in fascism. Fascist leaders always create some corrupt enemy that's supposedly in a position of power. I don't think you need me to point out examples.

But if he was immortal, it wouldn't have mattered whether or not Bruce had rescued him the first time either. I'm sorry, but I'm just not buying your theory.

Did you actually watch this movie? I mean, with your eyes open? Because I can't see how you could have seen more than fifteen minutes near the beginning and fifteen minutes near the end and type something that far removed from what was actually happening in the story. I can't see how you could have not have noticed that the mobsters were running the town, had been running it for twentysome-odd years and they owned most of the police and judicial branch. The reason why the League of Shadows were able to get the foothold into the city they had was because the majority of its governmental infrastructure was mired in shady, criminal dealings. You are acting like the narrative is lying to you and painting a false picture of the state of Gotham and really all of the law enforcement agencies had a handle on the issues facing the city and none of them were at all complicit in pushing it towards the edge of chaos that overwhelmed the poor section of town and threatened to subsume the entire city.

Furthermore, this rigid insistence that you can only use comic book conventions if your work is projected through an unambiguously liberal moral filter is narrative fascism.

Actually, I don't think the movie ever stated so. It said that there were corrupt cops and judges, but never was it mentioned that the whole city was corrupt. They were able to arrest and charge Falcone, weren't they?

it's also made clear that the only people pursuing Falcone (and being obstructed at every turn) are the DA's office - specifically Katie Holmes and her much less morally upright boss. (where was Harvey Dent in this movie...?)

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I can't see how you could have not have noticed that the mobsters were running the town, had been running it for twentysome-odd years and they owned most of the police and judicial branch. The reason why the League of Shadows were able to get the foothold into the city they had was because the majority of its governmental infrastructure was mired in shady, criminal dealings.

How does this contradict anything I've said? The city is a moral cesspool and it needs a strong, larger-than-life man to come in and clean it up. That's basically the standard narrative of fascism and I don't see how pointing it out is even remotely controversial.

You are acting like the narrative is lying to you and painting a false picture of the state of Gotham

You're acting like Gotham is a real place and not a fictional city created to serve a particular narrative.

Furthermore, this rigid insistence that you can only use comic book conventions if your work is projected through an unambiguously liberal moral filter is narrative fascism.

WTF Dan? Nobody is saying that. Personally I just enjoy a movie like X2 much more than Batman Begins. And actually these criticisms of the film's politics are separate from my enjoyment (or not) of the movie. As I said way way upthread my main gripes were the poor action scenes and some of the laughable dialog. I actually thought that the movie was pretty good but not really exceptional and nowhere near the best superhero movie ever. But I also respect and understand Tuomas' point of view that he cannot enjoy a film like this because of its politics.

So are you saying it's a criticism of the fascist impulse?

Which leads to my point: it was exactly because the movie felt more real than many other Batman stories, because the crime in Gotham wasn't simply a disease to get rid off, and because it showed Batman as pretty self-interested rather than a noble crusader, that his vigilantism felt so condemnable.

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I meant how his portrayed to the reader; being loathed by the police et al just makes him the underdog, and therefore easier to root for, and the fact that police don't like his methods can simply be used as a justification for his vigilantism ("The justice system is weak and can't handle crime, but Batman can."). Certainly his quest of punishing criminals is rarely questioned.