The Police: Classic or Dud, Search and Destroy

Excellent point. I wonder about this with a lot of recording artists, and not as negative criticism. There's a long history of talented artists who struggle for recognition and/or commercial success, mainly due to the fickle nature of the business, and suddenly get noticed when their work rides the moment. It would be misguided and overly simplistic to say they found success by jumping on a trend - it probably needs to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, but I get the impression they just needed their talents to be compatible with a popular trend, not necessarily a type of music they want to dedicate their life to but it's what gets them through.

Elvis Costello has had a famously strange history with Sting and the Police - in the beginning he openly trashed them in the press, but while he's made amends decades later, it's clear that he still dislikes their music even if he's mended things on a personal level. But like them, he's a pop artist who benefitted from punk as well - he struggled for a bit before breaking through when he found that his talents meshed extremely well with punk elements.

that's a good question. I've always wondered that myself. everything I've read about their early days paints Miles Copeland as calculating and savvy, it seemed like he was going to get them famous by any means possible. I love the story about how "Roxanne" was marketed as being "banned by the BBC" - because they just didn't like the song and wouldn't play it.

when I got really into them as a kid I remember reading "Bob Marley" a lot. I mean one of their early singles WAS a pretty straightforward ripoff of "No Woman No Cry" and if I know music writers I bet they latched pretty hard onto that.

Where did the reggae flavor of songs such as Walking On The Moon originate from?

“Well, that song came from a diabolical Christmas when we were freezing and starving. Stewart loaned Sting his Bob Marley records and I think what happened is that Sting kind of picked up on the convenience of the reggae bassline, so he could sing more and not have to play as much. Which is typical Sting – lazy motherfucker. So that’s what happened. And it worked.

“People would go, ‘Oh, you’re a reggae band.’ We weren’t a reggae band! I mean, of course, everybody loved Bob Marley, who was the greatest of all of them. But we had no pretensions to being a reggae band. It was just that the convenience of that bassline in the middle tempo was something we could do. It was lovely because it gave me space to put in those big chords like on Walking On The Moon.”

Bird, I urge you to try to find the "Spectacle" episode with Elvis and the various Policemen. He tactfully did separate interviews and separate performances so as not to clutter things with their interpersonal bullshit.

Elvis is quite clear on this point: they were playing around the same time in a lot of the same clubs and hauling gear up the same stairs. A young Declan got an autograph from a slightly older Andy. Etc.

Elvis and Andy do a Mingus song, "Weird Nightmares," together. Highly recommended for fans of both

A young Declan got an autograph from a slightly older Andy. Etc.

Elvis and Andy do a Mingus song, "Weird Nightmares," together. Highly recommended for fans of both

LOL, wow. I'll have to watch that episode. FWIW, most of the criticisms he had of the Police seemed to be directed at Sting (especially with the faux accent he used), but I don't recall a bad word directed at Summers or Copeland.

in regards to Stewart being obnoxious I have always wondered if he had a chip on his shoulder due to Sting getting so much of the attention. if you look at their songwriting credits its like 80% Sting, including every single one of their hits. but I don't think that tells the whole story. I think what was happening was Sting was bringing the melodies and lyrics - the "song", from a legal perspective, but Copeland and Summers were probably responsible for the whole Police "sound", including a lot of the particular chord structures and guitar riffs. everyone's noted that Sting's solo material doesn't sound like The Police - but Copeland's very much does. all the Klark Kent stuff sounds like lost Police tunes that Sting didn't want to do. his other 80's solo work has the same sort of chord progressions that they used. Sting's solo albums don't really have any of that. This probably didn't bother Summers much (who has always seemed pretty zen) but I bet it stuck in Stew's craw. If you read the things he's written about the band or watch that Super 8 documentary he made you can tell he sort of sees The Police as *his* band - like, he recognizes that Sting is the star, but he always points out how much he had to rework his tunes to fit the band, and how much he had to 'lead' Sting to get the sound he wanted. so yeah it doesn't surprise me that he would feel compelled to point out that he knows all the chords to "Message in a Bottle".

imagine that band with a different drummer

I think it’s Copeland adopting the kind of role usually found in the lead guitarist in Cliche Band Dynamics 101 - he concedes the role of frontman and lead singer to Sting but everything else about the band is up for grabs and Copeland will fight tooth and nail to define it

Ghost in the Machine and Synchronicity sometimes show Sting desperately trying to write the other guys out of his songs, and while Andy sometimes does get successfully sidelined (especially on Ghost) Stew always finds a way back in.

It's really got to irk Sting to no end that the things he hates about Stewart's playing - the energy, the chaos - are the things that often gave the band its spark. Sting has played with some of the greatest drummers of all time (Vinnie Colaiuta, Omar Hakim, Manu Katche, Keith Carlock), and while Dominic Miller can serve as a suitable Andy sub (and don't get me wrong, Andy is a genius), none of those drummers have ever provided the same spark.

Josh + waterface otm. An alternate-universe Police in which the drummer was, I dunno, Anton Fig or Omar Hakim or Manu Katche or Chester Thompson or Pete Thomas or whomsoever? That band would be perfectly competent but also a bit of a snoozefest. Those dudes know what they are doing but they would be liable to lay back in a way that Stewart never did (and never could).

The only other person who might have been able to fill that seat would be - hear me out - Jon Farriss. He doesn't have Stewart's manic disposition but he does have a little bit of Copeland's unpredictability. There is a sideways-ness to both of those gentlemen - the quick tom flurry in the middle of a bar instead of at the obvious transition points. Sudden doubling into 16th feel, or halving into cut time.

Chaos and spark really are good words for it.

I could imagine someone like Jon Farriss fitting in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrvbN5Hvnmg

Iirc J. Niimi's book about "Murmur" notes how much of an influence Stew was on Berry. But of course, Copeland has influenced every rock drummer in his wake.

I'm going to have to think about that. I guess "The One I Love" is played pretty urgently with some offbeat accents. The high snare on "End of the World."

By New Adventures, I think of Berry as more of a zen master than a frenetic chaos muppet. Copeland has always been a frenetic chaos muppet.

Bill Berry worked for Ian Copeland at the Paragon Agency in Macon, so his connection to the Police predates R.E.M.

yeah I can't imagine Reggatta or Zenyatta with a different drummer. they would've been totally nerfed. I've always considered Reggatta one of my favorite albums but in retrospect it sure as hell ain't the songwriting that I fell in love with. some of those things aren't even really proper songs - I mean what is "Deathwish" exactly?? I dunno but it still rules because of that click-clack-clackclackclack rhythm and Summers' hypnotic playing. had Sting taken the reigns on that it would be boring as hell.

right on cue this track came up on shuffle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIMitPazAgQ

good example of a Copeland solo track which easily could've been a Police tune. whereas nothing Sting's done would really fit in outside of the second half of Synchronicity. and yet he's the one who gets all the songwriting credits...wonder how many other bands had that sort of dynamic? Soul Coughing maybe? Doughty has all the songwriting credits but sure as hell couldn't produce that sound on his own.

The Band? Although that was also because Robertson hardly sang.

To what extent was doing their New Wave inna reggae stylee (one-drop, skanky upstrokes, etc.) a marketing move? Did they actively love the Wailers, or was it a cynical calculation based on Miles Copeland studying a spreadsheet and consulting with his accountants and saying, "Okay, lads, you need to incorporate approximately 30% more Jamaican influence in order to hit the critical Ohioan adolescent demographic. But don't take it too far - if you go Full Tosh you lose their parents, and these kids need their allowance if they're going to buy your cassingles."

I wonder if any of them saw the Wailers in London. those shows left a giant mark, and English musicians got their minds completely blown -- the musicianship of the Wailers was on a very very high level & everybody in the Police would absolutely have clocked that and seen, as so many did, the many ways that reggae practice might inform rock

Good point. Obv there was a lot of crosspollination (bee-related pun intended) going on at the time. Surely it is no coincidence that the Clash did "Police and Thieves" in 1977

Surely it is no coincidence that the Clash did "Police and Thieves" in 1977

Not to mention "White Man (In Hammersmith Palais)" which is a song about going to a reggae concert.

Hammersmith Police

The reggae in the Police's sound was a camouflage to slip prog back into punk; one of the few ways mainstream critics and listeners would accept that level of instrumental technique in the UK in 1978.

They also did "Safe European Home." Not reggae, but an extended complaint about a Jamaican vacation, and one of several Clash songs where it is difficult to determine how tongue-in-cheek they are being.

"We must've looked like a strange pair to the locals... I'm surprised we weren't filleted and served on a plate of chips" noted Jones. "We went down to the docks and I think we only survived because they mistook us for sailors."

I didn't realize that Millie Small's "My Boy Lollipop" went to number two in the UK (and the US!) in 1964. (It was produced by Chris Blackwell, who had been living in Jamaica since the '50s and of course was pretty prescient bringing Jamaican artists over to record.) "Israelites" went to number one in '69 (and top ten in the US?!), that's when I feel reggae got a real foothold. "Harder They Come" was '72, so was Paul Simon's "Mother and Child Reunion" (recorded in Jamaica with Jimmy Cliff's band). "Catch a Fire" was the next year. All the punks loved reggae, because they could approximate its simplicity and liked smoking pot.

Which is to say, I wonder if the Police borrowing from reggae was indeed just another way of pretending to be punk, because the Police were in no way on the vanguard in that regard. Though of course the *way* they integrated it was more novel than the more ham fisted "cod reggae" methods of their erstwhile peers

Yeah these days I would rather hear "Driven to Tears" over e.g. "Guns of Brixton."

I've actually come to love "Guns of Brixton" even more these past few years, especially after Steve McQueen's Small Axe.

could possibly be very dull but rick beato has just posted a looonnnggg interview with andy...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V67Fq47U4ng

hope at least 80 minutes of that is a detailed breakdown of 'behind my camel'

Just visually scanned and it doesn't look like there's much guitar playing, hope there's some guitar talking, because I don't need to hear Police stories.

That was pretty nerdy, and if you've read Andy's book you kind of get some of that again, but it's still a pretty good interview. It's funny, when I read the comments they're always all "Thank you, Rick, for just letting the guy talk!" and ... yeah, that's always the key. Let them talk.

Also, damn does Andy Summers look pretty amazing for 80. Wild.

my music nerd kid hates beato so much because he always talks about his perfect-pitch kid, it cracks me up.

def forced xmas father-son viewing, ha. time to wreck another xmas.

I like annoying my son by always calling him Rick Beat-o. Enjoyed that interview though and yes - great to see Andy looking so good.

I was suprised to learn of all ANdy's adventures with Jim Belushi of all people - I read his autobiography One Train Later - also suprising he survived the drugs

I just saw this, and for a brief moment, I thought "shit, Zach Braff has aged badly." Then I realized it was Andy and thought "oh...well for 80 he looks great!"

(I'm not a Zach Braff fan nor do I follow his social media accounts, so just mistaking a face for him was unexpected.)

Braff HAS aged badly

LOL

Guitar player friend of mine watched and was annoyed that Andy's displayed "Walking on the Moon" chord is actually not the one he shapes live.

Beato gets the hat trick with Stewart, who as expected is very entertaining/obnoxious/full of stories:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIJkRhd1CTY

He may be my favorite musician who I also loathe. I mean, he is a good drummer and I have read his memoir but there are times I wish he would shut the fuck up, sorry, the end.

Huge Police fan and not so much of Sting's solo career, it wasn't until the reunion that I saw what Copeland was like (especially within the group), and I became much more forgiving of Sting's decision to leave.

coincidentally I'm listening to the Klark Kent 2xLP that recently came out, which unlike the old CD actually does have everything, including two tracks that I think hadn't been released yet. I had no idea "Don't Care" becoming a small hit was what led to A&M going all-in on The Police.

despite his insistence that he doesn't know how to write pop songs I actually like this stuff a lot, it's fun in a way The Police almost never were. in the interview he mentions how Sting's songs came nearly fully formed and I wonder if he's talking mostly about the last two albums because this stuff has the same sound as the first 3 Police LPs. it's too bad none of his other band projects ever really took off.

also I don't mind his personality but yeah it would be exhausting to spend too much time around him. even an hourlong interview feels like a lot. but he's still a great interview subject, seems willing to answer anything and reveal a lot of inside baseball stuff, also very forthcoming about the stuff he is and isn't good at

It's entertaining in small doses. When I saw or read those first couple of interviews, it was great, like they were having fun, but after a while it sunk in that he might be like that all the time, including the half-joking antagonizing that would probably grate after awhile.

It is kind of incredible, if he's remembering correctly/telling the truth, that so many of those Police songs are early if not first takes (on his part). I know it's kind of common practice for the drummer to finish first and then just kind of fuck off, but Copeland's parts are so cool and iconic, not least "...Magic," which is insane, if that is indeed the first and only take. Then again, Copeland has always conceded that some of his parts aren't necessarily playable as we hear it, since they were tooled around with in editing, or subject to overdubs and whatnot. Like in this interview how he says that some of the accents in "Wrapped Around Your Finger" were moved around.

Btw, something interesting that popped up in that interview was Stew saying he basically had to cheerlead Sting that first year to make Sting the Stingiest Sting he could be. Reminded me of the "Van Halen Rising" book, where DLR apparently had to work overtime during the lean years to foster EVH's ego, keep up his spirits.

I had no idea "Don't Care" becoming a small hit was what led to A&M going all-in on The Police

Well, Miles C. being well-connected may have played a role there too.

https://i.imgur.com/cifTebs.png

This was the one I had as a young lad, going for $2 on discogs, peak mid 80s graphic design

It's kind of astonishing that Sting's desire to re-record the hits took precedence over Stewart being injured and unable to drum, so they went with programmed drums for the reworked tracks. Hardly surprising it nosedived after two boring trainwrecks.

Every bone you break

Every tart you bake