I thought we polled this album but I did not find last time I searched for it, was going to do this when the reissue came out but it has been done.
The Cure Wish retro review was trite and poorly written, I thought. And the rating about double what it should be.― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, May 29, 2022 2:15 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Really? I thought it was fine and needed saying.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:03 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I thought it was good (I don’t know the album).
― subject matter expert (morrisp), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:06 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I guess I just dislike the record a lot, but the potted-history felt like the writer had a quick flip thru the discography and a few articles rather than knowing the band and its oeuvre. And “Any one song from these records has enough character, vision, and atmosphere to spawn the careers of five entirely new bands”? Please. I finally bailed at “dark, artsy music”.
― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:14 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
It was the brief history of the band as seen from the vantage point of the immediate post-Wish comedown. Bit confusing to follow and plenty of cliches to be found, however if all you know is Disintegration or "Just Like Heaven" it serves as a fine context-provider for the album.
(Agree the rating is too high.)
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:21 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Wish >>>> Disintegration
but I'm an outlier, therefore the rating makes sense
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:38 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
It’s refreshing to see one of these Sunday reviews that jumps right into taking about the album, instead of detailing each band member’s first experience touching an instrument etc.
― subject matter expert (morrisp), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:45 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Alfred as much as I respect your knowledge and taste, I'm one of "those" Cure fans
― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:48 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
idk that score is about what i'd have expected considering its place in the cure's discography
i'd put it just a little lower but i don't tend to rate cure albums that highly
― ufo, Sunday, May 29, 2022 3:52 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Same. They recorded no "masterpieces" or whatever but every album b/w 1979 and 1992 has great songs, some more than others
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 29, 2022 4:04 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Have long considered Disintegration overrated and even then, rating it below Wish makes me chuckle.
Will say this: as implied in the review, the b-sides from Wish are *easily* their best. Some of them are better than 80% of Disintegration.
Bit disappointed this review completely overlooked Mixed Up; surely that was an indicator that things were reaching terminal velocity?
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Sunday, May 29, 2022 4:37 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
the b-sides from Wish are *easily* their best.
I had to change my shorts in July 2016 when they played "This Twilight Garden" in the first 40 minutes.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 29, 2022 5:46 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/the-cure-wish/ fwiw
― Yul Brynner film festival on Channel 48... (sic), Sunday, May 29, 2022 7:16 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I’ll be basic and say “Disintegration” is their best album. That said I don’t think I’d rate it higher than 8.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:09 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Pornography, The Head on the Door and Faith are all 10s. But this seems to be about killing your idols so carry on.
― Bee OK, Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:25 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
*Ott siren*
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:26 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
*yelling above siren* I loved Disintegration when it came out but now find it pretty dull, excepting "Plainsong", "Lovesong" and "Untitled". Remain pretty fanatical about everything up to HOTD.
― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:57 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
i'm totally basic and still think disintegration is the best album ever
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Sunday, May 29, 2022 10:43 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
some people think it is too long or some of the songs are bad; i argue that the length actually succeeds in making it feel deeper and denser, particularly in the way it's paced, starting off with impressionistically-formed pop songs which steadily warp into something way more gnarled and disturbed and by the time you hit the "prayers for rain"/"same deep water as you" stretch you feel like you've wandered so far into the record you'll never find your way out again. title track ironically refocuses things just as the mood of the record is at its most broken. "homesick" is an expression of desperation and denial, "untitled" one of reluctant, realistic acceptance. idk it's just so beautifully constructed, a big goth pool shrouded in mist and surrounded by exotic plants and i can't resist sinking into it. helps that every song is great i must admit
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Sunday, May 29, 2022 10:59 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is a ridiculous place, where i feel like i need to write a post defending disintegration
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Sunday, May 29, 2022 10:59 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Have long considered Disintegration overrated and even then, rating it below Wish makes me chuckle.
Will say this: as implied in the review, the b-sides from Wish are *easily* their best. Some of them are better than 80% of Disintegration.
Bit disappointed this review completely overlooked Mixed Up; surely that was an indicator that things were reaching terminal velocity?
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Sunday, May 29, 2022 4:37 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
the b-sides from Wish are *easily* their best.
I had to change my shorts in July 2016 when they played "This Twilight Garden" in the first 40 minutes.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Sunday, May 29, 2022 5:46 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/the-cure-wish/ fwiw
― Yul Brynner film festival on Channel 48... (sic), Sunday, May 29, 2022 7:16 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I’ll be basic and say “Disintegration” is their best album. That said I don’t think I’d rate it higher than 8.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:09 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Pornography, The Head on the Door and Faith are all 10s. But this seems to be about killing your idols so carry on.
― Bee OK, Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:25 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
*Ott siren*
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:26 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
*yelling above siren* I loved Disintegration when it came out but now find it pretty dull, excepting "Plainsong", "Lovesong" and "Untitled". Remain pretty fanatical about everything up to HOTD.
― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, May 29, 2022 8:57 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
i'm totally basic and still think disintegration is the best album ever
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Sunday, May 29, 2022 10:43 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
some people think it is too long or some of the songs are bad; i argue that the length actually succeeds in making it feel deeper and denser, particularly in the way it's paced, starting off with impressionistically-formed pop songs which steadily warp into something way more gnarled and disturbed and by the time you hit the "prayers for rain"/"same deep water as you" stretch you feel like you've wandered so far into the record you'll never find your way out again. title track ironically refocuses things just as the mood of the record is at its most broken. "homesick" is an expression of desperation and denial, "untitled" one of reluctant, realistic acceptance. idk it's just so beautifully constructed, a big goth pool shrouded in mist and surrounded by exotic plants and i can't resist sinking into it. helps that every song is great i must admit
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Sunday, May 29, 2022 10:59 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is a ridiculous place, where i feel like i need to write a post defending disintegration
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Sunday, May 29, 2022 10:59 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
disintegration is their best
sometimes "prayers for rain"/"the same deep water as you" can be too much at times but if you're in the mood then they really really work
"last dance" is inessential but not bad, that's the extent of my complaints
― ufo, Sunday, May 29, 2022 11:14 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I surrender and agree
― assert (matttkkkk), Sunday, May 29, 2022 11:24 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
as for Wish, though …
― assert (matttkkkk), Monday, May 30, 2022 12:07 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Wish and Disintegration are not far apart. Wish is refreshing, poppier, slightly excessive, in continuity with Disintegration and basking in its glory at the same time as it's in its shadow with lesser heights and consistency. I return to Wish more often for some reason, so I'm not shocked anyone prefers it to Disintegration, and I still think "From the Edge" is among their best songs. If the Cure wrote a masterpiece album, it's definitely Disintegration, though I value all their classic albums almost equally.
― Nabozo, Monday, May 30, 2022 2:42 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
That's about as evocative a defense as I've read, Brad. Good read.
idk Disintegration was the first Cure album I bought at time of release, found it a drag ("Lovesong" still leaves me cold), then worked my way backward to THOTD and Kiss Me and thought, whoa, okay, I get them now. And these days I accept how fully Disintegration provides an immersive experience. Generally, though, "Sinking" earlier and "To Wish Impossible Things" handle the hothouse despair more succinctly for those of us who get that succinctness isn't the point for Disintegration's admirers.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, May 30, 2022 2:46 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
this is a ridiculous place, where i feel like i need to write a post defending disintegration
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Monday, 30 May 2022 06:59 (three hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
it is the deep purpose of this place (i mean not the pitchfork thread specifically or indeed disintegration specifically, but i guess the need to write posts abt things that matter)
― mark s, Monday, May 30, 2022 2:49 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
disintegration is great. it's maybe even their 5th-best album
― imago, Monday, May 30, 2022 2:51 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
can't much speak on wish since disintegration is the only cure album I can remember listening to the whole way through (have listened to it a thousand times though, masterpiece)
― corrs unplugged, Monday, May 30, 2022 3:19 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I’ve never been able to get into them— should post about that in the appropriate thread, probably
― we need outrage! we need dicks!! (the table is the table), Monday, May 30, 2022 3:39 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Pornography, The Head on the Door and Faith are all 10s
otm even though when THOTD came out I felt it was too mersh, but that was me & those were the times
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Monday, May 30, 2022 3:43 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
i'm totally basic and still think disintegration is the best album ever
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Monday, May 30, 2022 1:43 AM (four hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
Same. And you completely and perfectly nail its appeal--at least for me--in those few sentences above
― Paul Ponzi, Monday, May 30, 2022 3:47 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
for all the "cold chilly goth" atmosphere that it's supposed to have, disintegration has always sounded like a very hot, almost muggy, album to me. it's like one of those august evenings where it's pretty much dark, maybe a bit of orange left on the horizon, and you can feel the heat coming off the pavement. maybe it's been too hot to be outside otherwise. insert "the same deep water as you."
even though i still like it, wish is the one that hits me like a relentlessly windy dark grey morning in january. when "friday i'm in love" is on, maybe the sun peaks through the clouds for a moment.
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:12 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
i like wish a lot, i feel like "doing the unstuck" is pretty underrated(?) (i have no sense of these things but when robert smith sings "happy!!!!" in a cure song i assume it's an underrated cure song), but it's much more disjointed than disintegration. it begins and ends awesomely, tho
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:16 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Disintegration sounds like August xpost
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:22 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
brad otm. "doing the unstuck" has always been one of the highlights for me. when join the dots came out, the previously unissued extended mix blew me away:
really does make you wonder what the hell has taken so long with the deluxe edition.
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:39 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
anyway, just wanted to take this opportunity to point out that pfork said something about one of my favorite bands and they managed to not only not be embarrassing, but actually repped for them pretty well. gold clap for pfork on this one.
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:46 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
*golf clap
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:46 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Sodomsky is a really good writer.
― subject matter expert (morrisp), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:55 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I’m not a huge Cure fan but I’ve always really loved the guitar sound on wish
― brimstead, Monday, May 30, 2022 10:04 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Wait, I wasn't saying Disintegration is a bad album! I'm not trying to kill my idols. I don't like giving partial ratings, it's probably an 8.6 for me and I'd still consider it one of the top 20 albums from the 80's.
I think all of these Cure albums are essential... maybe in this order:
Disintegration, Pornography, The Head on the Door, Faith, Seventeen Seconds, Wish, Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:25 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I’ve always really loved the guitar sound on wish
― brimstead, Monday, May 30, 2022 10:04 AM (twenty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink
otm, its best feature, reminds me of the miles-deep guitar tone from contemporaneous church records but like as glimpsed through a fog
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:36 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
oh its other best feature is that it's the boris williams fireworks show
― flamenco drop (BradNelson), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:53 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Would like to chime in once again and remind everyone who hasn't heard it that Lost Wishes has a lot more of the kinds of qualities that Brad mentions. It is so highly recommended.
Also Moka otm. Stating the plainly obvious, but: Cure in the 80s, classic for a reason.
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:57 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
"Wendy Time" strikes me as an improved "Hot Hot Hot!!!"
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, May 30, 2022 11:28 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
That song was once so collectively hated, it was only referred to as "W*ndy" on an old fan forum.
I think of it like a bizarro world take on "Let's Go to Bed." The original demo is much more brooding and Simon-centric. It's got a groove.
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 1:43 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
The one track for whose sake I won't endure a single insult: "High." It's everything I want from jangly Cure singles. Plus, it's licky as trips and kitten as a cat.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Monday, May 30, 2022 1:55 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Adore the single version for that harpsichord(?) that sits deep in the mix whereas the album version is just too spare without it.
Loved the T&CII versions of Wendy and Cut and was aghast when I first heard the studio cuts.
― KPH, Monday, May 30, 2022 2:02 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
"Cut" on Show >>>>>>
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 3:49 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Re the guitar tone, on Disintegration and Wish most of the leads and melody lines are played on the Bass VI rather than a standard guitar, gives it that bell/piano quality. Same goes for The Church of course.
viz
― assert (matttkkkk), Monday, May 30, 2022 7:32 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
This guy has several Cure videos where he plays a Bass VI and the main hooks/riffs from each album.
I adore this specific sound
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 8:34 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 8:34 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Oh wait only two albums Wish and Disintegration. Still pretty cool to hear isolated.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 8:35 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
there's lots of great stuff on wish it just doesn't hang together that well, but really disintegration is the only one from that period that isn't a wild stylistic grab bag
― ufo, Monday, May 30, 2022 8:58 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
The problem for me is that they sound like they're pandering to their audience rather than following the muse.
― assert (matttkkkk), Monday, May 30, 2022 9:08 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
uhm, maybe not the case since you didn't like it?
(kidding, ikwym)
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 9:24 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Lol
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:16 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Austin otm tho, following their best/richest "dark" record with their second-poppiest record ever is hardly pandering
― Yul Brynner film festival on Channel 48... (sic), Monday, May 30, 2022 11:28 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
The problem for me is that they sound like they're pandering to their audience rather than following the muse.
― assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:08 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
I've always found that there is something fabricated in the band's affects, but it's part of the appeal, the tragicomic goth figure etc.
― Nabozo, Monday, May 30, 2022 11:31 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
This discussion (and the article) had me revisiting Wish and it's better than I remember it being - I still think it's a bit of dip from their classic run (I basically love all the '80s albums except The Top) but there's lots of good stuff there, the songwriting maybe just feels a bit unfocussed at times? Agreed on the praise for the guitar sound, that's a large part of why I love 'Open' so much, one of their strongest opening tracks.
― Gavin, Leeds, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 2:30 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
don't think my dissonance from ILM consensus can be summarised any more succinctly than by our respective attitudes towards The Top
― imago, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 2:49 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 8:34 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Oh wait only two albums Wish and Disintegration. Still pretty cool to hear isolated.
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 8:35 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
there's lots of great stuff on wish it just doesn't hang together that well, but really disintegration is the only one from that period that isn't a wild stylistic grab bag
― ufo, Monday, May 30, 2022 8:58 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
The problem for me is that they sound like they're pandering to their audience rather than following the muse.
― assert (matttkkkk), Monday, May 30, 2022 9:08 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
uhm, maybe not the case since you didn't like it?
(kidding, ikwym)
― Let's disco dance, Hammurabi! (Austin), Monday, May 30, 2022 9:24 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Lol
― ✖✖✖ (Moka), Monday, May 30, 2022 10:16 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Austin otm tho, following their best/richest "dark" record with their second-poppiest record ever is hardly pandering
― Yul Brynner film festival on Channel 48... (sic), Monday, May 30, 2022 11:28 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
The problem for me is that they sound like they're pandering to their audience rather than following the muse.
― assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 6:08 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
I've always found that there is something fabricated in the band's affects, but it's part of the appeal, the tragicomic goth figure etc.
― Nabozo, Monday, May 30, 2022 11:31 PM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
This discussion (and the article) had me revisiting Wish and it's better than I remember it being - I still think it's a bit of dip from their classic run (I basically love all the '80s albums except The Top) but there's lots of good stuff there, the songwriting maybe just feels a bit unfocussed at times? Agreed on the praise for the guitar sound, that's a large part of why I love 'Open' so much, one of their strongest opening tracks.
― Gavin, Leeds, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 2:30 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
don't think my dissonance from ILM consensus can be summarised any more succinctly than by our respective attitudes towards The Top
― imago, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 2:49 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Ha, I thought it had some supporters on here but I could be wrong.
― Gavin, Leeds, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 3:01 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
pretty big fan here, also partial to Blue Sunshine
― assert (matttkkkk), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 4:52 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I feel their peak was Seventeen Seconds and Faith, and though all the subsequent 80s records have some good songs, they're marred by self-consciously stretching for effects, whether in the "goth" or "pop" directions. The only 90s stuff I've heard was seven songs on Greatest Hits and on that evidence it seemed to me that Smith had completely lost whatever made him a distinctive songwriter.
As for the Pitchfork review, it felt like the writer was trying to put the best spin on "they were past their prime".
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:02 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Nothing wrong with self-consciousness!
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:21 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I accept that Smith was willing himself to be in a sour mood recording the early '80s doom trilogy.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:22 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
wish was the last album of their prime! & one of the better ones of it
― ufo, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:23 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
xps to Halfway
Many present tend to be fans of bands' softer phases though, when they matured and started crafting songs rather than violently hacking them into being. I differ; I have time for Wish (especially FTEOTDGS and End), but the notion that it could represent any sort of pinnacle in the wake of that Seventeen Seconds through The Top run feels madly fanciful to me. Watching Me Fall (and 39) off Bloodflowers feel to me like a much more successful approach to the epic wall-of-sound style they adopted - be theatrical, go berserk with it
That said, you've basically just dismissed Pornography as schlock rather than one of the most singular and brilliant achievements in art-rock history, so
― imago, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:25 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
I love The Top to bits, but then I love albums in which self-indulgence, commercial indecision, and a heap of drugs produce material this colorful and wack.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:27 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
you've basically just dismissed Pornography as schlock
I think it's a sincere and credible effort, and I especially like "A Short Term Effect", but the strain of overkill is starting to show in the sound and the lyrics.
Nothing wrong with self-consciousness!
OK, but not if it comes across as forced, "willed".
― Halfway there but for you, Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:51 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Self-consciousness by nature is willed.
We're getting into a semantic argument when we should be doing the unstuck.
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 5:51 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink
Get Hovvdy!
― Bruce Stingbean (Karl Malone), Tuesday, May 31, 2022 8:03 AM (three months ago) bookmarkflaglink