Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

I mean, a lot of things are 'sloppy' by contemporary studio standards: that lead guitar on "Tangerine" doesn't quite sound in tune with the band, there's a lot of fret buzz etc on "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You", etc. Wrt the unaccompanied part of the "Heartbreaker" solo, though, I'm not even really sure how to gauge the 'sloppiness' - relative to what? He's not playing to a rhythm section, the time feel seems rubato even in the introductory slower parts and it's not like there's some definitive version that predates Led Zeppelin II that we can compare to.

I can't even count a regular time signature there. I always heard it as senza tempo so idk what "sloppy" means in that context. It's like saying Sonic Youth sing out of tune - out of tune with what?

Senza Tempo aka Chief Keef tempo

Maybe it only sounds "sloppy" because it sounds so live and spontaneous, very one-take. As opposed to the considered, specific nature of the band's other 99.99999% of recorded music, it sounds relatively loose and improvised, tentative and tossed off, though not in a bad way. Again, especially compared to a similarly gonzo solo like "Good Times, Bad Times," which is so precise and fussed over, "Heartbreaker" always reminds me of Nigel's clearly Page-inspired solo in "Spinal Tap" (though also not in a bad way).

The "Heartbreaker" solo always sounded to me like someone trying to show off their technical facility and dexterity and not really being able to pull it off. I don't get the sense that he's really trying to communicate anything beyond trying to show off his facility and dexterity, but I don't get that feeling from any other (studio) Page solo.

xxxxxxxp I actually have the transcript buried in a text file. It's been too long since I've seen the whole film, but here's what I have for that general section - FWIW, I'm at a loss as to whether he actually said came or if I'm misinterpreting it as something else.

"This is dedicated to Linda, to the cat right there with the silver face, dedicated to Kirsten, Karen, and that little four-year-old girl over there with the yellow balloon. I wanna say thank you for the last three years, one of these days we'll get together again. Thanks for showing up, you're outta sight.

"If you want the same old songs, we can do that. You all wanna hear all those old songs?"

"Damn, man, we're just trying to get some other things together. I just woke up about two minutes ago, was recording some little things but I don't think... I don't know...I think we'll play something a little more familiar. 'Cause I ain't came (?) yet myself, I don't know about you, but I ain't came (?).

"There I came (?). Thank you. Thank you for being so patient. Maybe one of these days we'll join again. I really hope so. All right."

So really, the difference is mainly that Page is more meticulous about what shows up on the record than Hendrix is. Hendrix's his best stuff is his often more spontaneous stuff (see for instance how most Hendrix fans prefer the sloppier mono version of "Red House" released in the UK to the US version). Yeah, I think it's fair to say that Hendrix was a more consistently great live performer than Page was. I do think that Page was a lot more accomplished and focused when it comes to the studio, though. Which makes sense - Hendrix got his chops playing in US touring bands, and Page established himself as a studio guitarist.

One of the great "what ifs" about Hendrix's death is his planned collaboration with Miles Davis - Miles was arguably making his last great records, so it's not a stretch to think it would've been amazing - but that's also a reflection of the kind of artist he had become. He was taking forever to make his records, partly from perfectionism but he was also recording endless variations of his new material - the fact that so much of it holds up as great listening probably shows how difficult it was for anyone to say "THIS is the one for the album." I never got the impression Page and Zeppelin was like that once they were in the studio - I think they recorded things more like the Beatles (or as composers, if that makes sense) rather than jazz musicians, and it's a big reason why there were able to be a bit more prolific than Hendrix when it came to finishing and releasing albums.

(the kind of artist Hendrix had become that is)

I should amend that, there are great tracks that Zep did make out of jams: "In My Time of Dying" for one (I think that was done in two takes). A few more famously came out of jams, but the final creation don't really seem like they were molded out of improvisations - IIRC "Rock and Roll" came out of a jam, but that's most a great riff repeated over a great homage to Little Richard's "Keep A-Knockin'."

hendrix faced a lot of problems as a recording artist due to contract issues as well. his perfectionism might possibly have been influenced by the lawsuit he was facing from the label he gave "band of gypsys" to, who then went on to sue him saying that it was a sub-par record. if every dollar you make from your record sales is tied up in lawsuits, and if actually releasing records only seems to multiply the lawsuits, what's the incentive to put out an album?

I've not much to add here beyond the fact that th first time I heard Heartbreaker (on the Remasters comps when they came out?) as a teenager me and all my reprobate friends burst out laughing at how shit it was. I've warmed to it a littl more since, but not much.

re: Hendrix’s studio perfectionism, he did put out three LPs in two years, one of them a double, so he was really only taking forever to make First Rays Of The New Rising Sun. And there were many reasons that took forever including, but not limited to, the fact that he was building Electric Lady Studio, his legal problems, and the necessity of gigging in order to finance his studio and his legal problems. The funny thing is, as much of a studio perfectionist as he was, that didn’t extend to recording the rhythm section. Charles Shaar Murray used Page/Zep as a comparison: why do the drums sound so amazing on Zep records but sound like an afterthought on some of Hendrix’s? He was never short of ideas, and was always impatient to record them (especially as he always had gigs breathing down his neck; he wanted to maximize his productivity in the studio) so I think it was, “Mics are on the drums? Good enough, let’s do this” in more than a few situations.

True, but the for the purposes of the topic at hand, I didn't think they refute the fundamental differences between Hendrix and Page in how they create their albums. The first is not the best example because it was the first album, so a lot of the process was planned to accommodate their miniscule budget, but regardless it was still done piecemeal over a pretty long time. The second album was kind of rushed along, and it's where the conflict between producer Chas Chandler and Hendrix really started to get bad, specifically because Chandler pushed back hard when Hendrix kept asking to record more takes - a LOT more takes. (Redding was vocally opposed to recording so many takes as well.) When it came time for the third album, Chandler eventually left the sessions for the same exact reason - too many takes, too much time being spent on the same material. (FWIW, while a double is nothing sneeze at, of the 16 tracks that made it, two are brief fragments, there are two versions of the same song - one of which is an extended live performance - and another was a single that had already been released nearly a year before. 12 brand-new, full-length songs isn't little either, but it's not a significantly large amount.)

I was a big Zep fan in high school, and have recently begun revisiting the band due to the 50th anniversary. I wasn’t much familiar with their bootlegs or live stuff back then, since it took too long on Napster and I didn’t have a guide as to what to seek out. (I had the BBC sessions and that was about it.) I’ve been listening to How the West Was Won and some boots and I have to agree re: the soloing. There’s always moments in a show when I’m in a groove and it just comes to halt thanks to a 5-10 minute solo break. It’s sacrilege but I usually just sample a minute or two, then skip ahead to when the song proper resumes. I’m just not a fan of that “deedly-deedly-deedly" proto-shredding style, I guess.

I was also big into Zeppelin when I was a teenager, and still love them. It struck me the other day, though, that I find myself listening much more often now to Queen.

I actually resisted Zeppelin when I was in high school. I'm not sure if I was oblivious to them before, but when I got to high school and was thrown into a bigger pool of students, it seemed like everyone was a fan. I didn't hate them - I just didn't think they were all that good for a number of reasons. Eventually I got IV and Remasters, but it wasn't until after college when I heard less of them and was away from classic rock radio that I put them on more and tried hearing what others did. I wouldn't say my reservations have completely gone away, but I do think they're a great band now and enjoy most of their stuff.

it's time for another one of these:

robert johnson's "crossroad blues" was further in the past for led zeppelin in 1970 than led zeppelin in 1970 is from us, and it's not particularly close

In all seriousness, it's a credit to Johnson that his works sounds so ancient and even mystical (for lack of a better word). When you listen to other great music recorded in 1936 - or better yet, not-so-great music that was simply popular in that day - it's like they're coming from different planets.

Presumably you've heard the most recent (c. 2011) remasters of the Johnson recordings — the "Centennial Collection"? The sound is unbelievably clear; you can hear his chair creaking on some tracks.

Yep, that's the one to get!

Are people really citing the Stairway to Heaven solo as an example of Page’s improvisational technique? Because every note of that was written out.

It’s not Zeppelin and admittedly it’s a low point but I always remember Page’s “solo” on Plant’s Tall Cool One as an example of how terrible of a soloist he could be when he wasn’t writing them beforehand (this one also sounds comped from a bunch of takes IIRC).

Solo on “Heaven Knows” is great

I just thought we were talking about solos, not improv specifically. Dude definitely isn't Django or Metheny when it comes to improvising "concise, well-crafted guitar melodies".

Although tbh I don't recall if the ones I mentioned were improvised or not. Acc to this, "Stairway" solo was also mostly improvised: https://www.guitarplayer.com/news/the-greatest-guitar-solos-of-all-time

Based on his live playing, I did just assume these were written out, though, and if he says otherwise, I'm not sure whether to believe him. I sort of like the doped-up rambling of some of the live stuff too, though.

What makes Zep's recorded output so great is that everything is so impeccably, perfectly arranged/played/produced, thought-out. That's what sets them apart from so many boring heavy blues rock bands of the '70s, and yeah, it's why that while some people no doubt love the epic improvised guitar/drum/organ solos of the live sets, I can't imagine anyone is listening to those live shows *for* those solos.

The line between writing and improvising a solo is murky when the soloist does multiple takes and/or punch-ins, as Page did.

What's the saying, composition is just very slow improvisation?

I've honestly never listened to any Zep outtakes. Are there any radically different versions of Page solos/takes? Or did he do multiple takes/punch-ins in pursuit of a set idea?

Bill Dixon said, "Composition is the assembling of musical materials into a new order; improvisation is the instantaneous realization of composition, without the benefit (or detriment) of being able to change or alter anything." He also said, "All music is improvised; you can't play the same thing the exact same way twice." That all works for me, to which I would add -- because what about samples? -- you can't play the same thing the same way, or in the same time/space, twice.

I like to imagine zeppelin trying to capture the stones shambolic rhythm on something like “under my thumb” . maybe “Dancing days” is the closest they came

Are any of the bonus tracks from the latest LZ remasters that good? I went through them and was thoroughly underwhelmed, to the point where they seemed to needlessly clutter up the discs. But if there's any I undervalued, I'll give them another listen.

Otherwise, Zeppelin is one of the few heavily bootlegged artists I like where I've never bothered to keep a copy of any of them even though I have six of their albums. To be fair, I've got DVD and How the West Was Won, both easily found for peanuts now, but I don't really feel the need to get anything else that's unofficial.

The best bonus tracks by far are on the Coda set (though it's kind of annoying, since it's 3 discs that could easily fit on 2): "Friends" and "Four Sticks" recorded with an orchestra in India; a couple of super-early studio things from '68; "Hey Hey What Can I Do"; and a couple of rough mixes that are not-uninteresting.

I can't imagine anyone is listening to those live shows *for* those solos.

Lot of people in the comments on the SRTS version of "Dazed and Confused" listening for the solos:

In my opinion - it was the best live perfomance of Jimmy Page. Absolutely out of this world. Like he was possesed by some cosmic force

best showcase for rock's wizard Jimmy Page. He even said magic was the fifth element of Zeppelin. There it is on display.

Only Zeppelin could make the solo of a song into a completely different song with its own solo that evolves into a solo with a violen string and then eventually comes back into the original songs solo. I wanna see a band today do that.

Jimmy Page, words cannot express what your guitar playing (and Zeppelin) means to my life. Between official and unofficial bootleg albums I've probably listened to nearly every note that came out of your guitar with Zeppelin. Your music is, and will always be sacred to me.

I've watched this video around 700 times and I am finally now ready to leave my comment. Paige first and foremost puts the greatest guitar performance ever filmed. His creativity is so far ahead of everyone else, its like comparing a Ferrari to a hitchhiker. The overall group performance is absolutely mind blowing. A six minute song originally, is generated into a 28 + minutes of rock mastery. People say the Beatles are the best rock and roll band ever. So do you think the Beatles could play this? Not a chance.

Best guitar solo ever performed at any time by anyone. Highlights : 17:36 and 23:47 Flabbergasting! This man was a fire. The Magician, the Alchemist.

I actually do sometimes enjoy listening to them randomly going from heavy blues rock to a 50s pop tune to seven minutes of solo bowed guitar noise to rubato guitar/voice improv to messy shredding to Holst back to the song but more as a sort of surreal pomo collage. (Versions from 2003 DVD/How the West Was Won better than this.) I wouldn't actually want to hear him play over "Blue Bossa" or whatever. Hendrix otoh obviously had better idiomatic improv chops.

I like to imagine zeppelin trying to capture the stones shambolic rhythm on something like “under my thumb” . maybe “Dancing days” is the closest they came

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but I feel "Ozone Baby" lines up pretty well with Some Girls ->> era Stones (albeit with beefier production).

I wonder if even Hendrix's justifiably vaunted skills would be less tolerable if they were always teamed with 30 minute drum solos and jazz odyssey bass explorations. But man, "a six minute song ... generated into 28 + minutes of rock mastery" seems like the opposite of mastery. Zep's power is taking all those ideas and wankery and distilling it down to a tight 6 minutes! Imo, of course. Reminds me of a photographer I know who does a lot of concert shoots. He's picking and choosing what shots to take while many of his younger peers are just click, click, clicking away ... As he said to me, if you're taking 1000 pictures of a concert, you're not taking pictures, you're making a movie.

One of the many things I love about LZ is that they were essentially peerless, in the literal sense. They just never really crossed paths with anyone, not even other rock stars. I wonder if there is even a single contemporaneous shot of Plant with, say, Mick Jagger.

Not sure about Jagger but it's not that hard with others, is it?

With Rod Stewart: https://i.pinimg.com/736x/4e/b6/5f/4eb65f1b7169b63eec0613e303427c8b.jpg

Bad Company: https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ymGTZ6P5zLc/hqdefault.jpg

Watching Jethro Tull: https://www.baltimoremagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/jb-laurelpop69-0.jpg

Page on hanging out with Lou Reed and seeing the VU: https://cosmicmagazine.com.au/news/jimmy-page-recalls-spending-time-with-the-velvet-underground-and-andy-warhol-in-new-interview/

Zep frequently crossed paths with the Who (inevitably, I suppose, not least because Zep originally was Entwistle and Moon’s idea to join up with Page, and Moon came up with the name). Zep opened for them once in 1969, Page played on a solo Daltrey b-side in 1973, and Bonham sat next to Moon’s kit during the recording of “Won’t Get Fooled Again.” There’s also that footage from 1977 of Bonham and Moon at an LA Zep show.

Plus wasn't it Some Girls that included a song the Stones recorded with Page on a recent(ish) deluxe reissue?

^^Goat's Head Soup, and--as Soto would certainly tell you--Page also pops up on Dirty Work, playing lead on "One Hit (To The Body)".

i guess what i hear in zeppelin is a sort of middle way. i mean, look at the points of reference here! bill dixon? django reinhart? yeah, page and zep lack the instrumental prowess of either. it's like, you know, trying to compare the '72 dead to miles davis' sets opening for them in '70 (a huge inspiration and influence on their sound). i have in the past described the '72 improvising dead as "shitty miles davis", but i don't mean it as an insult. zep's idiom is a _lot_ closer to the dead than it is to bill dixon. it's their _lack_ of concision that allowed them to really stretch out, their willingness to be interminably shitty (and their fans' toleration of same) that has led to their accomplishing greater things than many of their "classic rock" contemporaries. if we're gonna make any comparison, you know, how about the live mahavishnu orchestra? they have as much deedly-deedly-deedly as zep does!

Lot of people in the comments on the SRTS version of "Dazed and Confused" listening for the solos:
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Saturday, June 4, 2022 12:21 PM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

loved this fun little annotation

MrMysteriosguy
1 year ago (edited)
0:00 - Intro
4:09 - Faster tempo change
6:16 - Going To San Francisco
8:48 - Bow Solo Begins
11:35 - Fantasy Sequence
15:58 - High tempo guitar solo
18:18 - Funk Jam
20:49 - Second fast guitar solo/improv
22:58 - Heavier breakdown/Mars Bringer Of War
24:26 - Breakdown from the original studio version
25:55 - Ending solo
28:32 - Bonham drum solo closer

it's their _lack_ of concision that allowed them to really stretch out, their willingness to be interminably shitty (and their fans' toleration of same) that has led to their accomplishing greater things than many of their "classic rock" contemporaries.

I think one problem with Zep is that they didn’t have the time to seriously jell as a stretching-out live unit. The Who and the Dead had a few heavy-touring years on Zep, and while there are certainly some gloriously expansive live Zep moments — the Supershow D&C is my favorite Zeppelin moment ever — they didn’t have those years under their belts that give so many bands a sixth sense of “Oh, we’re going there? Got it” in extended live situations.

Bah da buh da buh dah buh
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ftr Keith Richards was NOT a fan:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQePSwNkvbA

Damn transcribed that wrong

Zep vs Stones poll

Townshend didn't like Zeppelin either: “I don't like a single thing that they have done, I hate the fact that I'm ever even slightly compared to them.” He continued, through gritted teeth and an angered perspective: “I just never ever liked them."