The Police: Classic or Dud, Search and Destroy

Exhibit B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlesUq8U7KM

(IIRC this was first released in 2000 on the 5.1 DTS re-issue of Every Breath You Take: The Classics)

https://www.discogs.com/release/8897614-The-Police-Every-Breath-You-Take-The-Classics

But yeah, I agree, they wouldn't have gotten better if they made more albums. The most optimistic view I have is that we would've gotten a few more classic singles, but Sting was irrevocably heading in the wrong direction.

I'm fond of this bitter, beautiful denunciation:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8fgY3AUNQM

As soon as I played that YouTube clip, my partner thought I had fired up a Netflix show, hah.

Also, Sting's "You Will Be My Ain True Love" for the movie Cold Mountain can be surprisingly good. It only hit me when I saw Alison Krauss & Union Station perform a haunting a cappella version to kick off an encore. It was like "WOW, how did I miss that?" but when I went back to the soundtrack, I was disappointed that it was produced and arranged very differently, with only an occasional voice joining Krauss rather than the full, eerie harmonies of the concert rendition.

FWIW, both Sting and Elvis Costello of all people contributed good songs, and both of them were nominated for an Oscar - they lost to Annie Lennox, Howard Shore and Fran Walsh for Return of the King.

Wow, the '86 version of DDDD,DDDD is breathtakingly bad. I can remember at the time thinking "awesome, those Police singles with cool production" but I was about 15 and musically illiterate.

Who had Animal Logic reunion on their bingo card?
https://scontent-ord5-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/312707862_646660697057424_7241859831881752794_n.jpg?_nc_cat=107&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=730e14&_nc_ohc=WvKxxFpBL3wAX-ui31T&_nc_ht=scontent-ord5-1.xx&oh=00_AT_AWNuMn5wiqRFtA7XPC64n3yTstyZ6rNHCC5kn80noxA&oe=635B10BB

Hmph. Call me when Curved Air reunites.

Okay I meant that as a drive-by joek but some alert ilx0r will no doubt pipe up to say that Curved Air are still active (or, rather, active again, just without Copeland) and that their new album is I dunno a banger or something.

I got nothing, sorry

sending out an SOS

Apart from the obvious "Mother,"

mother has a somewhat dumb vocal line but you do get to hear Summers completely steal Fripp's guitar solo from Eno's Golden Hours and that saves it IMO

I’ll have what Stanley Clarke is having.

He carries all his weight in his right thumb.

does this mean Gizmodrome is dead?

Probably as dead as Oysterhead.

It's been 43 years and I can still not quite get over the coolness gap between Copeland's excellent music and his derpy persona.

There is a memoir* by Jacob Slichter (who is a completely different person) in which he says that no matter what he did, no matter how much of a cool rock star he tried to be, every photograph of him made him look like he's about to say "Hey guys, let's ride bikes!"

When I read that, and then read Copeland's memoir**, it provided useful clarity to my understanding of Copeland. He's made some of my favorite records but he is the type of guy who pretty much always looks like he's about to say "Hey guys, let's ride bikes!"

* = Yes, I will read any book by a drummer and almost any book by a musician.
** = See?

yeah that occurred to me while listening to the Gizmodrome live album. it's excellent but Stew's persona is really self-consciously goofy in a way that's pretty offputting. he can't quite pull off the self-deprecating rock star persona that he's going for. he can definitely be a funny dude though.

He also wears very short shorts.

So do I. And my drumming sucks.

he is the type of guy who pretty much always looks like he's about to say "Hey guys, let's ride bikes!"

https://editorial01.shutterstock.com/wm-preview-1500/433266d/f1e6ab9f/Shutterstock_433266d.jpg

But wait! Long shorts!

I feel like I've written about this before (not this thread, apparently). In the "Certifiable" documentary from the reunion tour, there's a cringey scene at the Whisky where two things happen:

1. Questlove asks a question from the audience and it is pretty clear that Stewart has no idea who Questlove is. I don't think Sting does either, but that's not important right now.

2. Sting asks Andy if he knows "Message in a Bottle" and Andy obligingly says, "Uh, I dunno, what key is it in?" lulz. They start playing.

But here's the thing: Stewart starts calling out the chords, with inversions and naming the bass notes. And he doesn't fucking stop. Like they're pretty far along in the intro and Stewart (who someone unwisely provided with a live headset microphone) is still going like "C sharp minor with a B, A major seventh, B seventh..."

And everybody in the room is like DUDE, SHUT UP.

He wants everyone to know he's Not Just a Drummer.

Sting does tantric sex. The only inversion he needs is when Trudi fucks him up the ass.

With a vintage Fender Precision bass

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbO1qC7EsVI

1. Questlove asks a question from the audience and it is pretty clear that Stewart has no idea who Questlove is. I don't think Sting does either, but that's not important right now.

Certifiable came out in 2007. . . the Roots didnt start playing Fallon until 2009, right? It's possible Stewart knew of the guy, but I don't know that the Roots were as huge back then (and Questlove didn't have the culture presence back then either)

Fair point, waterface. The exchange is kind of weird in context.

(Caveat: I'm going from memory here because the DVD is in a box somewhere - so is anything resembling a DVD player. What I found on YouTube has this bit edited out, quite sensibly.)

It was meant to be a press event, so people asking questions were instructed to say what publication they were affiliated with, like "Hi, I'm Joe Blow from Rolling Stone."

Questlove says, "I'm Questlove from the Roots, I don't have an affiliation."

Stewart says, "wait, you mean, like, you're just... a normal person?"

Questlove asks a softball question about their influences.

Sting says something like, "People used to say we sounded a bit like Bob Marley." Which is both a pandering answer and a kind of infuriating one.

It is true that the early Police freely borrowed from reggae (cough cough APPROPRIATION cough cough). But it is a stretch to say that they sounded like Bob Marley. Further, it seems unlikely that anyone but Sting and people who wanted to flatter Sting ever said that.

Was Sting name-checking a Black artist because a Black dude asked him about his influences? One can speculate. It's a very brief moment and, as I said, not one that deserves this much unpacking.

I remember that press conference being awkward and weird start to finish, like no one wanted to be there on stage except Stewart, who was so "on" I just assumed he was playing up his obnoxious/antagonistic role as a poke at ego rival Sting, who was himself, iirc, kind of cranky and poked and bickered back a lot.

Josh otm of course.

But thinking about that leads me to a further thought about this band that I have adored since childhood (but not without critique):

All three of them were prog-as-fuck weird jazzbos with major chopskis. They are all on record as saying they felt it was expedient to adopt a type of "punk" posture and style because that was where the market was at the time (77-79ish). Despite the fact that it wasn't where their truest hearts were.

To what extent was doing their New Wave inna reggae stylee (one-drop, skanky upstrokes, etc.) a marketing move? Did they actively love the Wailers, or was it a cynical calculation based on Miles Copeland studying a spreadsheet and consulting with his accountants and saying, "Okay, lads, you need to incorporate approximately 30% more Jamaican influence in order to hit the critical Ohioan adolescent demographic. But don't take it too far - if you go Full Tosh you lose their parents, and these kids need their allowance if they're going to buy your cassingles."

Excellent point. I wonder about this with a lot of recording artists, and not as negative criticism. There's a long history of talented artists who struggle for recognition and/or commercial success, mainly due to the fickle nature of the business, and suddenly get noticed when their work rides the moment. It would be misguided and overly simplistic to say they found success by jumping on a trend - it probably needs to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, but I get the impression they just needed their talents to be compatible with a popular trend, not necessarily a type of music they want to dedicate their life to but it's what gets them through.

Elvis Costello has had a famously strange history with Sting and the Police - in the beginning he openly trashed them in the press, but while he's made amends decades later, it's clear that he still dislikes their music even if he's mended things on a personal level. But like them, he's a pop artist who benefitted from punk as well - he struggled for a bit before breaking through when he found that his talents meshed extremely well with punk elements.

that's a good question. I've always wondered that myself. everything I've read about their early days paints Miles Copeland as calculating and savvy, it seemed like he was going to get them famous by any means possible. I love the story about how "Roxanne" was marketed as being "banned by the BBC" - because they just didn't like the song and wouldn't play it.

when I got really into them as a kid I remember reading "Bob Marley" a lot. I mean one of their early singles WAS a pretty straightforward ripoff of "No Woman No Cry" and if I know music writers I bet they latched pretty hard onto that.

Where did the reggae flavor of songs such as Walking On The Moon originate from?

“Well, that song came from a diabolical Christmas when we were freezing and starving. Stewart loaned Sting his Bob Marley records and I think what happened is that Sting kind of picked up on the convenience of the reggae bassline, so he could sing more and not have to play as much. Which is typical Sting – lazy motherfucker. So that’s what happened. And it worked.

“People would go, ‘Oh, you’re a reggae band.’ We weren’t a reggae band! I mean, of course, everybody loved Bob Marley, who was the greatest of all of them. But we had no pretensions to being a reggae band. It was just that the convenience of that bassline in the middle tempo was something we could do. It was lovely because it gave me space to put in those big chords like on Walking On The Moon.”

Bird, I urge you to try to find the "Spectacle" episode with Elvis and the various Policemen. He tactfully did separate interviews and separate performances so as not to clutter things with their interpersonal bullshit.

Elvis is quite clear on this point: they were playing around the same time in a lot of the same clubs and hauling gear up the same stairs. A young Declan got an autograph from a slightly older Andy. Etc.

Elvis and Andy do a Mingus song, "Weird Nightmares," together. Highly recommended for fans of both

A young Declan got an autograph from a slightly older Andy. Etc.

Elvis and Andy do a Mingus song, "Weird Nightmares," together. Highly recommended for fans of both

LOL, wow. I'll have to watch that episode. FWIW, most of the criticisms he had of the Police seemed to be directed at Sting (especially with the faux accent he used), but I don't recall a bad word directed at Summers or Copeland.

in regards to Stewart being obnoxious I have always wondered if he had a chip on his shoulder due to Sting getting so much of the attention. if you look at their songwriting credits its like 80% Sting, including every single one of their hits. but I don't think that tells the whole story. I think what was happening was Sting was bringing the melodies and lyrics - the "song", from a legal perspective, but Copeland and Summers were probably responsible for the whole Police "sound", including a lot of the particular chord structures and guitar riffs. everyone's noted that Sting's solo material doesn't sound like The Police - but Copeland's very much does. all the Klark Kent stuff sounds like lost Police tunes that Sting didn't want to do. his other 80's solo work has the same sort of chord progressions that they used. Sting's solo albums don't really have any of that. This probably didn't bother Summers much (who has always seemed pretty zen) but I bet it stuck in Stew's craw. If you read the things he's written about the band or watch that Super 8 documentary he made you can tell he sort of sees The Police as *his* band - like, he recognizes that Sting is the star, but he always points out how much he had to rework his tunes to fit the band, and how much he had to 'lead' Sting to get the sound he wanted. so yeah it doesn't surprise me that he would feel compelled to point out that he knows all the chords to "Message in a Bottle".

imagine that band with a different drummer

I think it’s Copeland adopting the kind of role usually found in the lead guitarist in Cliche Band Dynamics 101 - he concedes the role of frontman and lead singer to Sting but everything else about the band is up for grabs and Copeland will fight tooth and nail to define it

Ghost in the Machine and Synchronicity sometimes show Sting desperately trying to write the other guys out of his songs, and while Andy sometimes does get successfully sidelined (especially on Ghost) Stew always finds a way back in.

It's really got to irk Sting to no end that the things he hates about Stewart's playing - the energy, the chaos - are the things that often gave the band its spark. Sting has played with some of the greatest drummers of all time (Vinnie Colaiuta, Omar Hakim, Manu Katche, Keith Carlock), and while Dominic Miller can serve as a suitable Andy sub (and don't get me wrong, Andy is a genius), none of those drummers have ever provided the same spark.

Josh + waterface otm. An alternate-universe Police in which the drummer was, I dunno, Anton Fig or Omar Hakim or Manu Katche or Chester Thompson or Pete Thomas or whomsoever? That band would be perfectly competent but also a bit of a snoozefest. Those dudes know what they are doing but they would be liable to lay back in a way that Stewart never did (and never could).

The only other person who might have been able to fill that seat would be - hear me out - Jon Farriss. He doesn't have Stewart's manic disposition but he does have a little bit of Copeland's unpredictability. There is a sideways-ness to both of those gentlemen - the quick tom flurry in the middle of a bar instead of at the obvious transition points. Sudden doubling into 16th feel, or halving into cut time.

Chaos and spark really are good words for it.

I could imagine someone like Jon Farriss fitting in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrvbN5Hvnmg

Iirc J. Niimi's book about "Murmur" notes how much of an influence Stew was on Berry. But of course, Copeland has influenced every rock drummer in his wake.

I'm going to have to think about that. I guess "The One I Love" is played pretty urgently with some offbeat accents. The high snare on "End of the World."

By New Adventures, I think of Berry as more of a zen master than a frenetic chaos muppet. Copeland has always been a frenetic chaos muppet.

Bill Berry worked for Ian Copeland at the Paragon Agency in Macon, so his connection to the Police predates R.E.M.

yeah I can't imagine Reggatta or Zenyatta with a different drummer. they would've been totally nerfed. I've always considered Reggatta one of my favorite albums but in retrospect it sure as hell ain't the songwriting that I fell in love with. some of those things aren't even really proper songs - I mean what is "Deathwish" exactly?? I dunno but it still rules because of that click-clack-clackclackclack rhythm and Summers' hypnotic playing. had Sting taken the reigns on that it would be boring as hell.

right on cue this track came up on shuffle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIMitPazAgQ

good example of a Copeland solo track which easily could've been a Police tune. whereas nothing Sting's done would really fit in outside of the second half of Synchronicity. and yet he's the one who gets all the songwriting credits...wonder how many other bands had that sort of dynamic? Soul Coughing maybe? Doughty has all the songwriting credits but sure as hell couldn't produce that sound on his own.

The Band? Although that was also because Robertson hardly sang.

To what extent was doing their New Wave inna reggae stylee (one-drop, skanky upstrokes, etc.) a marketing move? Did they actively love the Wailers, or was it a cynical calculation based on Miles Copeland studying a spreadsheet and consulting with his accountants and saying, "Okay, lads, you need to incorporate approximately 30% more Jamaican influence in order to hit the critical Ohioan adolescent demographic. But don't take it too far - if you go Full Tosh you lose their parents, and these kids need their allowance if they're going to buy your cassingles."

I wonder if any of them saw the Wailers in London. those shows left a giant mark, and English musicians got their minds completely blown -- the musicianship of the Wailers was on a very very high level & everybody in the Police would absolutely have clocked that and seen, as so many did, the many ways that reggae practice might inform rock

Good point. Obv there was a lot of crosspollination (bee-related pun intended) going on at the time. Surely it is no coincidence that the Clash did "Police and Thieves" in 1977

Surely it is no coincidence that the Clash did "Police and Thieves" in 1977

Not to mention "White Man (In Hammersmith Palais)" which is a song about going to a reggae concert.

Hammersmith Police