The Cure: Classic or Dud?

Flashes of brilliance, but ultimately not as interesting as their contemporaries (Joy Division/New Order, Depeche Mode, the Smiths)

they have the most amazing bank of b-sides of any of these assholes

really wish they'd saved "2 late" for wish

i don't think they were really as consistently good at making albums as many of their contemporaries - after pornography their strength was clearly as a singles act - but their highs were still pretty high.

― ufo,

They even have a song about it!

I was wondering: is there a really solid, scholarly, serious biography or history of The Cure?

I know that there are popular books - I still have TEN IMAGINARY YEARS on a shelf - I'm thinking more of the kind of biography that a major author gets, where really thorough work has been done on archives, correspondence etc.

The Smiths have attracted such attention, as with Tony Fletched's massive LIGHT THAT NEVER GOES OUT.

If we had a book like that - not just a brash cash-in book - for each major band then they would add up to a huge cultural history.

Most of the members of JD/NO have written their own books. I haven't read any of them yet. The podcast "Transmissions" is pretty fantastic, as are the short interviews they gave several years ago around the reissue of Movement, all of which are on YouTube.

I'd probably read a Robert Smith book, if nothing else because he's been around for so long and has doubtless seen so much.

Robert plays his cards close to the chest. The closest thing we're getting yet is Tim Pope's documentary, but when I talked with him a couple of years back it's clear that it all depends on what Robert lets out from the archives and when, he operates on his own random timetable.

I've written the first couple of chapters for what *might* be something of a book on the Cure, maybe, via Patreon, and even then it's more an initial draft from a strictly personal perspective.

I had bought "Never Enough" and I've sadly never opened it, don't know if it's any good.

Based on a quick search, it looks like it isn't so sad after all

Never Enough by Jeff Apter? I bought it as an ebook. Only made it a couple pages in and stopped with this sentence:

But even before then, when the then Easy Cure was signed by German label Ariola/Hnasa in 1977 (when the trio were still teenagers), they'd been instructed to record an assortment of rock chestnuts and greatest hits, rather than their own material, which led to one of the quickest terminations of contact this side of a Britney Spears marriage vow.

"Simon Gallup wore the worst denim ensemble since Justin Timberlake at the '01 VMAs."

they have the most amazing bank of b-sides of any of these assholes

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Tuesday, January 18, 2022 8:49 PM

yep. and it took depeche mode five years to catch up with something like "lament."

in retrospect, with regards to that crop of bands mentioned, it really does feel like the others were so one-dimensional. i'll never understand how someone can just make the same album over and over again and get accolades for it (probably why i don't really like nu-cure and also why my perennial favorite smiths album is ~easily~ strangeways).

The Cure and Pet Shop Boys, maybe the Smiths, are the only acts from this era from which I can construct an alternative (nyuk nyuk) career out of their B-sides.

join the dots is a pretty good retort to the idea that they "weren't interesting."

I didn't say they weren't interesting, just that they weren't as interesting as the best of their contemporaries.

I'm not sure I can think of any 80s band who had better b-sides than the Cure though... Kate Bush maybe? Saint Etienne? They're 90s though.

Kate Bush was 80s also.

The Smiths had some amazing b-sides. I can't say whether they were better than the Cure's, as I am not as familiar with theirs. But, I mean, here's someone's top 10 list:

Back to the Old House
Jeane
Please, Please, Please Let Me Get What I Want
Handsome Devil
London
I Keep Mine Hidden
Asleep
Oscillate Wildly
Sweet and Tender Hooligan
Stretch Out and Wait

yeah i agree the Smiths had excellent b-sides. I don't know if I have heard any Depeche Mode b sides because I don't really like their a-sides that much either. Of the bands being discussed they are by far my least favorite of the canonical 80s group.

It's too bad Moz has turned into such a troll, although honestly we could all see it coming.

Smiths fans who don't like The Cure: "The Cure are one-dimensional and repetitive".

Cure fans who don't like The Smiths: "The Cure are one-dimensional and repetitive".

People (like me) who love both: "Both bands were consistent yet also diverse; eclectic yet always recognisable".

The daft thing is that all this was true in 1985 or 1986; surprised to be typing it in 2022.

Sorry: 2nd line should have said "The Smiths are one-dimensional and repetitive", though I suppose the erroneous version has more comedy value.

I love the Smiths but I really can't agree that they were equally diverse in terms of output with respect to the Cure. The Cure just covered a lot more musical ground (helps to have existed for 3-4 times as long as the Smiths but still).

I think if you rate The Smiths *at all*, then it's uncontroversial to say that they are one of the great B-sides bands of their era, or ever -- because there is virtually no distinction between their B-sides and their A-side or LP-track output: as concretely demonstrated by the fact that HATFUL OF HOLLOW contains 45s and B-sides and is many people's 'favourite Smiths LP', and THE WORLD WON'T LISTEN is arguably in the same class (and ditto, to an extent, by default, LOUDER THAN BOMBS).

In other words, for most of their career the Smiths didn't write and record B-sides as a separate, inferior category of songs.

Having said that: there are a few live track B-sides (eg on the 'that joke' 12-inch) which are a different kind of item, and then there is the late period when they start recording things like 'work is a four-letter word' which does seem a step down in quality. Having said that, maybe that track and 'golden lights' (which was recorded when still at their peak, really) are actually unusual - it's not as if there is a blitz of tacky covers in 1987.

The Cure: I love many of the B-sides but they were clearly recorded as a separate category, and released in the separate form of the compilation on the back of the STANDING ON A BEACH tape ('another journey by train' etc etc_), which many of us love, and then JOIN THE DOTS.

I was going to say I was unsure whether the *later* Cure B-sides held up, but then remembered the 'letter to Elise' CD single and how good it all was.

I have concluded from this thread that I need to dive back into the Cure, whom I've largely ignored since the early 90s.

y'know, as cynical as i am about nucure, i will definitely defend their b-sides from any era (wish possibly my favorite of them all). even the ones from 4.13 dream were at least pleasant throwbacks to a classic period:

"ny trip" (2008)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPJ0EiGFCPM

also not sure if this counts, as it was a us-only b-side, but i thought "fake" (2004) was a legitimately great throwback and one of my favorites:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeHEllIB03Y

I loved all of the extra songs from 2004 (Truth, Goodness, and Beauty, Fake, This Morning, Going Nowhere) and I don’t think the self-titled album is complete without them

oh that's a good one for the "bonus tracks make the album better" thread

I thought ‘Going Nowhere’ definitely made that album better

oh that's a good one for the "bonus tracks make the album better" thread

― STOCK FIST-PUMPER BRAD (BradNelson), Wednesday, January 19, 2022 1:38 PM

otm

"going nowhere" also quite good.

there was also the two very late-released b-sides from the self-titled album, "why can't i be me?" and "your god is fear" which were much gloomier than they had sounded in years. i was on a (now defunct) fan forum around the time and the generally accepted theory there was that both tracks feature the uncredited return of pearl (f/k/a porl) thompson.

"why can't i be me?"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3yxllOaOqo

"your god is fear"
youtube.com/watch?v=7tJHHQWqAXo

(vocals still *way* too loud for me on this more recent stuff; at least the tunes are decent)

sorry, goofed the url there—
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tJHHQWqAXo

seems like 'join the dots' isn't on spotify? at least in my territory.

i feel a really well-chosen 2lp compilation of Cure b-sides would be quite revelatory to many - the head on the door-era b-sides are a real peak of weirdo pop (and also went a long way to inventing ariel pink?)

it is a pretty orthodox opinion but you could make an incredible LP out of Disintegration & Wish b-sides (esp if including Never Enough & Lost Wishes material)

re lack of detailed study on the Cure - this is a huge absence for sure - for a massive & influential band they are incredibly under-examined IMO - in terms of serious critical engagement i can think of a couple of pages in Michael Bracewell's England is Mine (which is quite sniffy and dismissive if i remember right) - what else is there? there's plenty to talk about!

can we just admit this rocks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd5obDWCZy4

I remember getting the Standing on a Beach cassette pretty early in my Cure fandom (which became pretty intense 1986-1990) and feeling literally threatened by how weird that song was, along with "A Man Inside My Mouth". Of course there was no turning back from there.

"happy the man" also one of the rare instances of a b-side that got played live fairly regularly.

that cassette finishing with 'new day' was so brilliant

one of the great things about attending this show was getting overwhelming 'standing on a beach cassette' flashback feelings from the encores

1983-1985 probably their greatest bsides period, where each song was a whole different musical path. If push comes to shove, the Join the Dots disc covering that era would probably be my one Cure desert island disc. Happy the Man and New Day still give me chills to this day.
After that, I feel the quality of the bsides were inversely proportional to the quality of the album. The KM3 and Disintegration ones were pretty minor, while the Wish, Wild Mood Swings one and self titled were pretty great. I have no memory whatsoever of the 4:13 ones.

Saw them in 85 on the Head on the Door tour and they were dull as dishwater (compared to New Order the same year, who were brilliant).

I first saw them in May 1984 when I thought they were brilliant. One of the first concerts I ever went to and I was blown away at the magical effect of musicians physically present in front of me creating great music.

Saw them intermittently after that, last time in 2018, and it was never quite the same. I always had the feeling that they were more polished, the songs post- The Top were less interesting, and they lost a little of the magic because of it. A bit like when a stage musical finds its sound and sticks with it and what it gains in ‘professionalism’ it can lose in surprise and spontaneity.

Having said that, I did like the 2018 show in Hyde Park a lot.

My feeling on hearing the B-sides tape was, and remains:

The wonderful thing here is how every B-side sounds like its A-side; cut from the same cloth.

'I'm cold' is like 'train', 'another journey by train' is like 'a forest', 'the exploding boy' is like 'inbetween days', etc.

Single favourite track from that tape has to be 'a few hours after this'. That really moved and impressed me. Better than most people's A-sides.

I definitely preferred the back of Standing on a Beach to the front after a while. Weird cure beats poppy cure for me though both tulpas of the split personality are crucial. My pick was either Throw Your Foot or Exploding Boy, and love all the others especially Cold, Happy, Pink Eye and especially especially Splintered - so epic and what I was always disappointed not to find in bands like Killing Joke and Ministry.

Might be interesting to poll the 12 b-sides from Standing on a Beach. For comparison here are the b-sides' placements in the 2012 artist poll (parens denotes not on the cassette) - a surprising order I think:

(5 10:15 Saturday Night)
(33 Upstairs Room)
(38 Lament)
#50 Man Inside My Mouth
#53 Few Hours After This
#54 Exploding Boy
#64 Throw Your Foot
(65 Harold and Joe)
#73 New Day
(74 2 Late)
(75 Just One Kiss)
(78 Twilight Garden)
#89 Mr Pink Eye
#93 Stop Dead
#94 Splintered In Her Head
(98 Breathe)
(107 Plastic Passion)
(113 Chain of Flowers)
(115 Speak My Language)
(126 The Big Hand)
#133 I'm Cold
#137 Another Journey By Train
#144 Happy The Man
(145 Fear of Ghosts)
(149 Japanese Dream)
#151 Descent
(152 Babble)
(155 Foolish Arrangement)
(157 Snow In Summer)
(163 The Dream)

Not a great showing in some ways - probably the lowest average score if you compare it to the first 15 years of albums - but all 12 tracks placed, more consistent than The Top (which missed out Empty World), Kiss Me (missing Fight), and Wish (missing Trust! and Wendy Time)

co-sign re: "throw your foot" that song rules.

I also had that cassette in the late 80s and loved side B

yeah side b as the distorted funhouse mirror version of side a was such a great listening experience

other favourite parts of that comp - the way the tension on side a grows increasingly thick and evil until the hanging garden - then the pure pop relief of LGTB was always a moment - no other cure comp conveys this change so well

and finishing on close to me was crucial - always hated how the cd version ended with a night like this

Album with the best b-sides is Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me

The Wish b-sides are also stellar

Anyone who had the Staring at the Sea VHS should remember this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKOdo_hD9k8

Oh yes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQp3oWdS7cw

^^^^ exactly

wish also had the best extended mixes they ever did:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAlbcDerHQ