Coppola's _The Conversation_

I think he does care, though, and deeply. He puts on that show of not-caring for himself and for Stan, but he carries around so much guilt--for the murder his tapes occasioned previously, for his treatment of Terri Garr, for pretty much his whole life--that he's looking for some way to redeem himself, almost like Travis in Taxi Driver. And I think he projects all that onto the tapes.

As I posted above, I'm not saying I'm right, but I do think it's open to interpretation, and that that particular interpretation is valid.

And I find it so hard to believe that Coppola, a well-know control freak, would leave two different recordings in the film because of sloppiness, or because he figured no one would notice or just wouldn't care.

Eh, there's tons of sloppy stuff in his movies, iirc, especially the two Godfathers. Continuity errors and the like. Right?

Oh, I have no doubt Coppola was aware of the two different recordings, and purposely used the first one first (and repeatedly throughout the bulk of the film) and the second only at the end when it was too late to function as a clue for the audience. But I do think that’s sneaky, even though you may be right about the psychology of Harry. Didn’t other people in the film hear the tape the same “erroneous” way that Harry did? I guess I’d have to watch it again to be sure of that

My memory is shit, I’ve seen this movie a handful of times and loved it every time, but don’t recall what you all are specifically talking about. Whatever the “cheat” was it didn’t register as such.

Should say it either went unnoticed or seemed purposeful. It’s been about a decade.

“He’d kill us if he got the chance” vs “He’d kill us if he got the chance”

***SPOILER ALERT***

The emphasis makes all the difference wrt whether Cindy Williams and her pal will be the victims of a murder or the perpetrators of one.

This is sort of the inverse of what Fassbinder did in his adaptation of Nabokov's Despair, where the main character thinks another character is his double, when we the viewers can see that they don't look especially similar. In the novel, their dissimilarity isn't revealed until the end, because we only have the main character's perception to rely on.

...until that point.

Didn’t other people in the film hear the tape the same “erroneous” way that Harry did?

That's a good question, and I'd have to check. (One of those films I've seen so many times, I basically stay away now; last time was 10 years ago or so, with David Shire speaking.) My guess is that we don't know how they're hearing it, but if you're right, there goes my theory.

Can you give me an example of a continuity error in one of the Godfathers, Josh? I can't think of one off-hand, but maybe you're right. ("The scene where they refer to him as 'Skinny Clemenza,' and Coppola forgot to fix that.")

(Is there anyone other than Stan who hears the recording?)

I stand corrected on The Godfather!

https://www.moviemistakes.com/film544

Favorite: "When Luca Brasi is practicing his speech he is wearing a square faced watch. When he gives his speech to the godfather he's wearing a round faced watch."

Stan plays the tape to the whole roomful of people at the party at Harry’s workshop, though I’m not sure if he plays *that bit* of the tape before Harry angrily stops him

Pretty sure I can answer that from memory: when it gets to the key line, Harry and Meredith are dancing in another room. She hears it, but pretty sure she doesn't comment.

Anyway, all our answers are here. Seems like the line reading was an accident, but it was definitely left in purposefully. (Love listening to Murch--he's like George Martin talking on the Beatles.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2RRaw08og8

Dumbest reader comment, #6: "Idk man both sentences means the same thing."

Interesting. The implications of Meredith hearing the line, which I didn’t notice (and which on a first viewing one would never consider), are intriguing.

i think the only time I saw it in the theater (as opposed to numerous times on VHS or DVD) was a festival screening where Murch did a talk and Q&A at the end). His book on editing was required reading in grad school.

Didn’t other people in the film hear the tape the same “erroneous” way that Harry did?

This really has me interested right now, something I'd never thought about, so I'm going to give this another look. I think I messed up my recollection of the Meredith scene above, too ("Pretty sure I can answer that from memory..."--wrong), although what I'm remembering might happen during the night, after they've slept together but before she steals the tapes and leaves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_qJatkqdAo

I’ll always welcome an excuse to see this again.

So: You hear the key line four times in the film, the first three times as "us," the last as "us."

1) Harry alone in his workshop; Stan has just cleared out after their argument. (Stan never hears the key line.)

2) With Meredith, the night of the party. Not like I described above, when they're dancing; it's after everyone else has left, after Harry gets angry at Moran's pen-recording. Meredith is coaxing Harry into bed, agreeing with everything he says; there's nothing that indicates how she's hearing the line (if she's paying attention at all).

3) With the director and Martin Stett, when Harry picks up payment. Early on, the suggestion is that "us is how Stett and the director hear the line too--the director's "You want it to be true" only makes sense if he thinks he's the target--but when the line actually comes, and Harry asks what he's going to do to them, the director doesn't respond; he doesn't say anything that indicates he's hearing the line differently than Harry.

4) In Harry's mind, after the murder, as he pieces everything together.

I don't think there's anything that contradicts the interpretation I give above. I think that's the only logical interpretation, underscored by that Murch clip. I don't know why Coppola second-guessed himself; thematically, it'd be a less interesting film if the same inflection were used the whole way through.

Plenty to chew on here!

https://static1.squarespace.com/static/540b22a1e4b0d0f549866135/t/58fe57799de4bb6494158e2d/1493063553867/The_Conversation_SCREENPLAY.pdf

my favourite part was

CLOSE VIEW OF THE MUSICIANS 4
on!Q& hem puts down his instrumen and does a ?
ro licb.ng tap dance. DllNGeK o« D1tNcG D itriEC rDlf ·

Just skimmed that screenplay--looks like the order of things was radically changed.

The American Zoetrope-related films had a real murderer's row of film editors!

Use to have a friend, or acquaintance at least, that worked there for a bit/pvmic

No saxophone playing in the final shot of that screenplay!

I think there's a thread on ILM somewhere for movies with playing-records scenes; I can rattle off a dozen or two. Add The Conversation; first time Harry plays sax in his apartment, there's a shot of his turntable and the record he's playing along to.

That scene does appear in the screenplay, it seems stranded without the "payoff" at the end.

If only they'd had the technology back then Murch could've done a Yanni/Laurel thing with the key line

"He'd kill us if he had the chance... MACLUNKEY!"

What was happening outside the window behind Caul, when he’s gotten home and is calling his landlady? This is near the beginning.

Saw this again on the big screen tonight.

It was a different film this time (this was the 4th or 5th time I saw it and the second time in a theater) - more about a wounded man trying so hard to control and hide himself from the world around him that the world wounds him (as opposed to a sinister conspiracy or a surveillance fable).

Poster I made up for my second attempt at launching a Film Night in my small town. The first night--Sweet Smell of Success--one person showed up! (Me plus one other person, just to be clear.)

https://phildellio.tripod.com/conversation.jpg

great movie, and very cool you’re doing that! i’d suggest using an image from the movie though. at first glance this flyer looks like it’s advertising social media platforms

Thanks. I did one with the original movie poster, too--with the screening details in a little box in the corner--and that's the one I posted around town. This was just an extra thing I linked to on FB, trying to explain why I thought the film was a relevant as ever.

It's really hard to launch this kind of thing in a small town. This Thursday I have to compete with the annual library book sale and a small get-together for the tennis club (which will be attended by all of 10 people or so--but cost me two people who said they'd be there).

If you go from an audience of one to an audience of two, is that incremental or exponential growth? It's both--I love math!

Having seen this so many, many times, something I think I noticed for the first time tonight (and only because it's the first time I've ever watched it was captions--it'd be easy to miss otherwise): Nixon is mentioned by name once, at a crucial moment.

was = with

Just noticed it was #72 on the directors' list, so that's heartening.

Nixon is mentioned by name once, at a crucial moment.

Oh yeah ... I remembered that bit from the first time I saw it, but then I kinda associate this film with Nixon and that era of "paranoid film" ... I think I probably saw it for the first time in a thematic week along with All the Presidents Men so ... (I think I've only seen it 4-5 times though)

The image flashed by quickly, but I think it might have even been Coppola himself who says it (although not having come across mention of this before seems unlikely).

hey clemenza, thanks for your email! I appreciated it!

You knew what thread I'd open for sure.

From Sam Wasson's The Path to Paradise: A Francis Ford Coppola Story (which I'm not especially liking--for the 57th time, Coppola the crazed genius lost in the jungle):

The first cut of The Conversation was extremely long, close to five hours.

I usually name The Conversation as the closest any film has ever gotten for me to perfection. There's one of Elizabeth MacRae's lines that always sounds off to me, otherwise there isn't a line or a moment elsewhere I'd change. So in no way would I expect longer to be better, or even close. But if this cut still exists--highly doubtful--I sure would love to have a chance to see it.

Half the cut footage is different readings of <the line> and the other half is Gene wailing on sax.

I saw a bunch of people on Twitter saying how unnecessary the sax scene at the end was and finally lost my last bit of faith

I'm thinking of "These pretzels are making me thirsty from Seinfeld"; every possible permutation of "He'd kill us if he got the chance."

Yeah, that's bizarre--that final scene is so crucial. Makes me think of Google/Facebook when I watch it now.

Move that end quote...