Magic: The Gathering C/D

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There was a pretty funny article in Salon a couple years ago about the early days at Wizards of the Coast, which apparently resembled a geek version of Fellini's Satiricon, before the company went and sold out to THE MAN.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 07:34 (11 years ago) Permalink

ok here goes.

if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules. you needn't bother playing if there are no limits placed on the composition of the deck. wizards of the coast probably still publishes its "restricted/banned" card list as well. check it out.

when i was about 15 to 16 i played in magic tournaments EVERY sunday, and played recreationally with friends most evenings. yes, you could say that it was a very signifigant part of that time in my very sad teenaged life. at one point in the remote northern alberta town of 35,000 i grew up in there were three comic shops that all pushed magic quite heavily and at least a couple more places where the cards were available. some people took it VERY seriously.

i won't argue that magic is a tremendous cash sucker, and ultimately it taught me nothing about anything (there is little about the game that transfers to other pursuits) but there is a tremendous beauty to the inner workings of the game. it's not just about how much money you spend on it. in tournament settings, i was able to consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs (engineers, systems analysts) simply by spending a lot of time evaluating how the cards in my deck worked together. quite often the answer is not an "expensive" card but four cheap, nasty ones.

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:20 (11 years ago) Permalink

oh and just for the record i don't play anymore and haven't touched a card in about four years.

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:21 (11 years ago) Permalink

if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules.

Why? I mean, in a tournament of course you do, but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 23:52 (11 years ago) Permalink

Tournament rules are for people who actually know all the instant-kill power card combinations. And tournament rules are constantly changing because people figure out new ones.

fletrejet, Thursday, 23 January 2003 00:28 (11 years ago) Permalink

but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?

dude i was like fifteen ...

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:29 (11 years ago) Permalink

I sold all my cards to some dork for like $20.
I still sometime would like to play, but alas; it is too expensive.

A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:51 (11 years ago) Permalink

dude i was like fifteen ...

Haha, maybe that was a bit too nasty on my part, but still- why not play any way you bloody please (or was that "You MUST..." comment just the way you saw it when you were 15?)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 23 January 2003 11:32 (11 years ago) Permalink

If we judge a game by its players, and I judge this by the few people I've ever met or seen who play it, it's as dud as it comes. (This is not meant to comment on the people here, none of whom I have met.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 23 January 2003 18:24 (11 years ago) Permalink

I used to play... PROFESSIONALLY. How sad is that? You can make good money at it to be honest. The saddest thing most times are people who play it. It's 90-95% male, they're all super homophobes too. I used to wear t-shirts that implied I was gay just to mess with the competition.. and to get pictures of me in em in Magic publications (yes, there are a few). I enjoyed the game and the rules, and I met some good people along the way. The best part about Magic players is that they are willing to play almost anything.. so once you get fed up with Magic (which everyone does), they will try any other activity or game (Set, Settlers of Cataan), and jump on it.

I'm going to be branded a geek now.. aren't I?

Christopher (Christopher), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:41 (11 years ago) Permalink

This is an internet message board Christopher = we are all geeks.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:44 (11 years ago) Permalink

it's fun, if you have money to waste and friends that don't take it seriously.

webber (webber), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 00:07 (11 years ago) Permalink

I used to wear t-shirts that implied I was gay just to mess with the competition..

Let's count the ways we could parse that sentence, hmm?

Chris P (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 01:41 (11 years ago) Permalink

Let's make that a little clearer... heh.

A lot of Magic players are homophobic (in my experience) and in order to throw them off of their game, I would wear a shirt that symbolized gay pride.

What's really scary is that I'm thinking about playing in a sealed deck PTQ in a couple of weeks just to see if I can still compete after not playing for years.

Christopher (Christopher), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 16:24 (11 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...
Who up in this bitch fancies a game of memory M:TG*? I'm bored.

* (the one where you start with no cards in your card, draw one of your choice per turn, and no card can be played twice? It's kinda fun...)

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Sunday, 18 April 2004 14:34 (10 years ago) Permalink

I used to play a lot around 14-16 and did pretty good, but when I think
of all the money I spent on cards that just sit in boxes up in my closet
I get all teary-eyed. Those should be records sitting idle, not cards!

stephen morris (stephen morris), Sunday, 18 April 2004 16:35 (10 years ago) Permalink

Dud as hell. When I was 12 or 13 or so I went with my friend (who was into Magic cards at the time) to a Magic the Gathering "tournament" being held at the local Barnes & Noble. While my friend was playing Magic with someone, I walked around watching the others in attendance. At one table this guy playing said something like "I'm playing the Wall of Flame card". This other guy at the table said, "I'm gonna play the Wall of Pubic Hair card, hehehehhehe" in this horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voice. That was when I realized that there were people far nerdier than I could ever be.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 18 April 2004 17:24 (10 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...
The game itself = Classic: it will be around for years to come, probably our nerdier kids will be into it or some incarnation of it.

The "90-95% super homophobe" players mentioned above = DUD. If I was rich (xpost it's expensive xpost) I'd probably play Magic Online, and not have to see the fat guys with "horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voices" that unfortunately define the game.

Richard K (Richard K), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 03:55 (10 years ago) Permalink

I can't believe I never posted to this thread. I probably spent twenty bucks on it total, maybe thirty. It was one summer, a fun thing, a moment in time, a nice little cultural artifact.

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 04:06 (10 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

i've been having a lot of "fun" playing with the old cards I rescued from my mom's house. i refuse to spend another cent on the game, however.

ian, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

a couple years ago i went to a card & comix shop and built a decent blue-white deck for like $4.00, but all the newer card editions just had all these new retarded esoteric abilities that i had no idea about

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:16 (7 years ago) Permalink

also, the art was all these, like, cyber dragons and BULLSHIT

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:21 (7 years ago) Permalink

We should start an ILG thread where we play against each other using SCANNERS.

nickalicious, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

i only played magic for the first time a few weeks ago, how weird is that? i was intimidated by the kids who played it in high school, but it's not half as complicated as i thought.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:50 (7 years ago) Permalink

you should have been more intimidated by their allowances

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:56 (7 years ago) Permalink

and/or dedication to blowing every dollar earned at the drive-thru window sunday 5am-1:30pm on crazy junk instead of like cigarettes and cds

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (7 years ago) Permalink

that is correct i am calling you bustas out

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (7 years ago) Permalink

what are you talking about, i pinched a franklin from my dad's wallet to buy a mox jet

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:01 (7 years ago) Permalink

haha, i think i was most intimidated by their cliquish aspie superiority complexes.

i think it's really fun now though.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:03 (7 years ago) Permalink

ok these prices are so retarded omg

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

people should all be blown up

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (7 years ago) Permalink

in my middle school the biggest fight i got into was between pog players and m:tg players

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

i was obviously a magic player

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (7 years ago) Permalink

green & white deck, in case anyone is wondering

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

omg pog

deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

if i remember those years correctly i was more worried about the shame my seminoles starter jacket would bring me after danny wuerrfle's gators pounced on them in the orange bowl than anything having to do with those fucking things

deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:14 (7 years ago) Permalink

I used to play magic back in the mid-nineties, I still have a hundreds and hundreds of those cards in some box around here. I never paid much for them though, because I stole most of them from bookstores. I wonder if that stuff is worth something these days, the oldest cards I have are from Revised Edition or whatever it was called.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:24 (7 years ago) Permalink

god, my nerd days were spent playing Avalon Hill wargames. and banging chicks of course

brownie, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:26 (7 years ago) Permalink

my best nerd days are ahead of me still.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:27 (7 years ago) Permalink

mine did not look quite as good as this one but I got pretty good

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

i had a revised shivan dragon worth $50

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

and my color selections were more noise

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (7 years ago) Permalink

haha shivan dragon. back in 1995 my friend's proudest accomplishment was owning 4 shivan dragons. I wonder if those cards are worth anything today.

burt_stanton, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:04 (7 years ago) Permalink

blue + black deck, my sengir vampires and royal assassins were so so gangster.

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

i had two revised royal assassins

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (7 years ago) Permalink

maybe more, hell if i remember

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:11 (7 years ago) Permalink

at my 10th bday party i beat the rich kid in magic even tho i had no allowance, i had birthday money and was a HUSTLER with trades

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:12 (7 years ago) Permalink

i think sometimes i threw in some green too, but only if u could throw all mana down first turn and i would use it solely for my force of nature

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:18 (7 years ago) Permalink


deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:18 (7 years ago) Permalink

i have a shivan dragon signed by the lady what painted it ;_;

Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:25 (7 years ago) Permalink

despite being secretly not that good

iatee, Sunday, 26 October 2014 04:07 (6 days ago) Permalink

i think mardu charm is right at that spot where none of the modes is super exciting for the cost but the modality pushes it over the top. i would've thought about putting it in over the 2nd act of treason. the only charm i left out in an on-colour deck is temur, that is not a good card.

Roberto Spiralli, Sunday, 26 October 2014 13:40 (6 days ago) Permalink

Well I see 3 Valley Dashers and I feel anything that can take out a potential blocker is good. Second mode on that Charm is also useful, it lets you burn it if you don't have a t3 drop and can blow someone out from time to time. None of the charms feels like real high picks to me but I think they're all useful, even Temur - sure it's often a worse Savage Punch but it's at instant speed and the counterspell option is always nice to have.

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Sunday, 26 October 2014 15:35 (6 days ago) Permalink

I lost r2 to another mardu deck who went 2/2->2/3+1/1 white dude->4/5 ogre both his games on the play :(

yeah I almost never take / play the charms, partly because I'm 2c like 75% of the time, partly because everyone else seems to value them way too high

iatee, Sunday, 26 October 2014 15:41 (6 days ago) Permalink

the Jeskai one can be a total killer if you've got a ton of prowess dudes

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Sunday, 26 October 2014 15:44 (6 days ago) Permalink

what do we think of this? is armament corps really just that insane an a dedicated abzan deck?

iatee, Monday, 27 October 2014 17:36 (5 days ago) Permalink

interesting that two-color decks are way below a 50% win rate

Free Me's Electric Trumpet (Moodles), Monday, 27 October 2014 17:46 (5 days ago) Permalink

the collection method is just too biased to be particularly worthwhile. i mean its interesting to note that in a slow format with lots of board stalls lure and overrun are probably better than usual (and i do think roar of the challenge is a little underrated) but those cards are def not as good as those win %s represent them to be. like i can think of a lot of cards i would take over flying crane technique. id also probably take cut, arc lightning and suppression field over corps. but i may value being two colors way to highly its not like my winrate is all that good in triple ktk

≖_≖ (Lamp), Monday, 27 October 2014 17:51 (5 days ago) Permalink

I would've guessed Dead Drop was top uncommon given how the data is collected.

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Monday, 27 October 2014 17:52 (5 days ago) Permalink

yeah me too

iatee, Monday, 27 October 2014 17:53 (5 days ago) Permalink

armament corps' super high winrate is kinda interesting because it's *not* a 1 dimensional overrun effect, it's a 5 drop that generally comes down as soon as you can play it

iatee, Monday, 27 October 2014 17:55 (5 days ago) Permalink

btw I'm coming around to Tormenting Voice; I don't think anyone gives any priority to it but I think any instants or sorceries that are cheap and aren't card disadvantage are playable, given Prowess and Delve. plus a slow format affords you the opportunity to play cards like this. maybe it's just me but it seems so much better than Wild Guess - this along with Treasure Cruise can do wonders in Jeskai

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Monday, 27 October 2014 17:58 (5 days ago) Permalink

but yeah Armament Corps is very good but I didnt think it was THAT much better than the other 2XYZ clan uncommons (Sultai Soothsayer, Warden of the Eye, Bear's Companion, Mardu Roughrider). I'd probably rank it as the best anyway but Roughrider is probably my #2, so I'm surprised to see it ranked last among them. all of them are real good though

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Monday, 27 October 2014 18:13 (5 days ago) Permalink

I am big on Wooly Loxodon though. One extra mana to unmorph but it eats all the big turn 5 dudes.

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Monday, 27 October 2014 18:17 (5 days ago) Permalink

i think roughrider is the second worst maybe worse than warden of the eye and i like mardu decks. i dont have any solid reasoning for that except i think it just slots into the better mardu decks really poorly esp at 5 mana. i also think those decks want tri-colored cards the least and its often just worse than the other mardu cards you might have

corps is a 6/6 for 5 with a high degree of synergy with many of the best uncommons in its colors - obv its really good! i guess i question whether its a better early pick than murderous cut or suppression field though, given those cards flexibility

≖_≖ (Lamp), Monday, 27 October 2014 18:18 (5 days ago) Permalink

Cut is my #1 uncommon and I pretty much always take it if in black. Supression Field I like but it doesn't take a Morph out, I'd go Corps over that because as mentioned it's nutso synergy. Given the ability of a +1/+1 counter to "turn on" lifelink, flying, first strike, deathtouch, etc. it can be a real bomb.

I never had an issue playing Roughrider - it's where you want to top out and I think tri-colors are ok when they're 5 mana but unless they remove it right away it pretty much wins over the next 2 turns. That's my experience though. I would vouch really hard for Sultai Soothsayer too though, I've always found that card really coming in handy

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Monday, 27 October 2014 18:29 (5 days ago) Permalink

yeah roughrider is bad because 5 drops are bad in aggro decks, I would still probably play it in most builds but I'm not picking it in like the t5 picks of any pack even if I'm mardu

iatee, Monday, 27 October 2014 19:21 (5 days ago) Permalink

the methodology behind mtggoldfish's limited stats is really flawed and i would ignore them completely

ciderpress, Monday, 27 October 2014 19:46 (5 days ago) Permalink

so the only 4-0 deck modern deck tuesday that didn't run 4 treasure cruises is the burn deck, which ran 3 treasure cruises

iatee, Thursday, 30 October 2014 16:15 (2 days ago) Permalink

another article on KTK limited. interesting that even the members of CFB can't agree on what's good. I don't like the "play 41 cards so you don't get decked first" advice though. For one, I've never played a game of KTK limited that came down to decking. For two, there are a lot of playable cards that draw you cards or mill you, plus stuff like Embodiment of Spring, so if it did come to decking I think it wouldn't be up to whoever played 41 cards. For three, KTK is so skill intensive and has so many decisions to make that if you actually did get to Turn 34 then the match is more likely to come down to the clock than who wins that game. I've seen people chew up 18+ minutes on Game 1 over like 13-14 turns. I don't have a problem with playing 41 cards but this just seems like bad advice

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Friday, 31 October 2014 12:57 (Yesterday) Permalink

Also, even though I really have started to like big elephant, Savage Punch is definitely the best green common

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Friday, 31 October 2014 12:57 (Yesterday) Permalink

i am increasingly finding that the 2 mana interactive spells are really important. punch, singing bell strike, force away, injury, feat, suspension field and ride down obv. mana and tempo are just nuts in this format, and being able to effect the board for cheap, and hopefully cast multiple spells in a turn, is a huge deal

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:22 (Yesterday) Permalink

2 in particularly because not infrequently the 3 mana equivalents, e.g. awaken the bear, kill shot, can put you in awkward spots re efficient mana use on key turns.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:26 (Yesterday) Permalink

punch and bell strike are both very very good in the right decks and kinda bad in other spots, injury and feat are cards you are basically always happy to have around

there was a good marshall sutcliffe article that highlighted how strong the feat/god's willing effect has become as limited removal gets worse - feat in response to a 5 or 6 mana removal spell is a blowout

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:32 (Yesterday) Permalink

on a related note, i have had a mentality switch w/r/t face down morphs from thinking that a morph is a good plan for turn 3 to making sure i have something better in my deck for that turn and playing a morph as my fall back

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:38 (Yesterday) Permalink

having creatures that can be either 3 drops or late drops is not bad, but you have to account for the mana+tempo costs from unmorphing

I play 2c aggro decks 80% of the time in this format and having someone play a t3 morph, refuse to trade w/ my 2/1, unmorph it, then get it bell striked or whatever = so many easy wins

so yeah morphs are generally powerful cards but I regularly end up w/ only 2 or 3 in my deck

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:44 (Yesterday) Permalink

i think its ok for all your 3s to be morphs if it means you're picking up more good 2s and 4s which are in much shorter supply in this format

ciderpress, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:45 (Yesterday) Permalink

yeah I think you really screw yourself if you don't have *some* play t3, given that that's what this format revolves around

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:46 (Yesterday) Permalink

i think there are enough good cards at 4, altho it is easy to fall into the trap of neglecting t4 in between the major morph turns. but yeah good 2 drops are hard to find. one of the inherent advantages of a more aggressive deck is that it forces you to have a curve, and you're not skipping your early turns just because you have a stack of powerful cards and you hate wasting a spot on gdman wetland sambar

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 13:54 (Yesterday) Permalink

haha I won a draft w/ a 5 wetland sambar deck the other day

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:01 (Yesterday) Permalink

I'm starting to think the 0/4 Outlast for B is even better than I thought. You don't often play anything turn 2 so you can usually Outlast 'em right away and if you do it twice you get a 2/6 which is pretty much a brick in this format. Plus it's a Warrior, it makes Treefolk sorcery real good, and gives you a Raid trigger for a turn 2 Mardu Skullhunter

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Friday, 31 October 2014 14:21 (Yesterday) Permalink

yeah it's solid, so is the 0/5 pinger wall

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:24 (Yesterday) Permalink

agreed on both. and that they are 2 of the better early drops tells you about the general quality on offer. one problem with the B 0/4, and really with injury to an extent, is that early black is otherwise pretty bad. skullhunter is your only other good black common at 1, 2 or 3 and even that is an awkward card. black seems to be better as a third or splash colour.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:49 (Yesterday) Permalink

yeah skullhunter is underwhelming, you often have to hold on to it to get the raid trigger, and it feels like a one for one so often because a later-game 2/1 is just dead

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:52 (Yesterday) Permalink

or you just need a 2 power blocker. the saddest skullhunter is they have face down morphs, you have nothing on board, you play your 2/1, tapped, no trigger

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 14:56 (Yesterday) Permalink

skullhunter isnt great but i think people undervalue how effective hand disruption is. like a) the average cmc of most peoples decks is higher than in other formats b) people are often cheating by one or even two mana sources s c) morphs mean that people will not play cards from their hands as quickly all of which means you are v likely to get a relevant card off the raid trigger and that its not a terrible turn five play in conjunction with another card. i think the biggest downside to skullhunter is that it comes into play tapped

ancestor and skullhunter being p reliable wheels is one of the big reasons that i am drafting black in almost 80% of my drafts

≖_≖ (Lamp), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:07 (Yesterday) Permalink

I feel like the mind rot card is above average in this format for that reason

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:09 (Yesterday) Permalink

just read that PV piece

"Dead Drop, which Owen's team says is the third best uncommon [...] and Trail of Mystery, which Ari Lax's group thinks is a first-pick bomb"

the first one is surprising, the second is totally wtf for me. i don't think i have seen that card played even.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:37 (Yesterday) Permalink

There's a guy at my LGS who tries to make Trail of Mystery work. the problem is there isn't really a "morph deck"; Secret Plans is not very good and there aren't a lot of cheap unmorph dudes. I don't think it's a bomb.

Dead Drop is very good; I think Falconer, Murderous Cut, and Arc Lightning are all better but 3rd best isn't that out of line.

The card I'm curious about is Molting Snakeskin. Aggro isn't really a great strategy in KTK but this card at least helps you bust through all the 0/5s. I haven't played it outside of desperation but I wonder if it's secretly a good Mardu card.

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:44 (Yesterday) Permalink

I played 2 copies in an aggro dimir deck, mostly because I didn't have anything else for those 2 spots, but it actually worked really well

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:45 (Yesterday) Permalink

I'd say Sultai Scavenger is a pretty good black common

Abstinence Hawk (frogbs), Friday, 31 October 2014 15:45 (Yesterday) Permalink

removal is bad and slow in this set, so unless they have injury you can often find a spot to get it on a guy

iatee, Friday, 31 October 2014 15:45 (Yesterday) Permalink

Pretty sweet Trail of Mystery/Villainous Wealth deck with double Dead Drop from Reid Duke here:

Free Me's Electric Trumpet (Moodles), Friday, 31 October 2014 16:47 (Yesterday) Permalink

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