Magic: The Gathering C/D

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There was a pretty funny article in Salon a couple years ago about the early days at Wizards of the Coast, which apparently resembled a geek version of Fellini's Satiricon, before the company went and sold out to THE MAN.

Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 07:34 (13 years ago) Permalink

ok here goes.

if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules. you needn't bother playing if there are no limits placed on the composition of the deck. wizards of the coast probably still publishes its "restricted/banned" card list as well. check it out.

when i was about 15 to 16 i played in magic tournaments EVERY sunday, and played recreationally with friends most evenings. yes, you could say that it was a very signifigant part of that time in my very sad teenaged life. at one point in the remote northern alberta town of 35,000 i grew up in there were three comic shops that all pushed magic quite heavily and at least a couple more places where the cards were available. some people took it VERY seriously.

i won't argue that magic is a tremendous cash sucker, and ultimately it taught me nothing about anything (there is little about the game that transfers to other pursuits) but there is a tremendous beauty to the inner workings of the game. it's not just about how much money you spend on it. in tournament settings, i was able to consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs (engineers, systems analysts) simply by spending a lot of time evaluating how the cards in my deck worked together. quite often the answer is not an "expensive" card but four cheap, nasty ones.

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:20 (13 years ago) Permalink

oh and just for the record i don't play anymore and haven't touched a card in about four years.

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 18:21 (13 years ago) Permalink

if you're going to play magic, you MUST play by tournament rules.

Why? I mean, in a tournament of course you do, but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Wednesday, 22 January 2003 23:52 (13 years ago) Permalink

Tournament rules are for people who actually know all the instant-kill power card combinations. And tournament rules are constantly changing because people figure out new ones.

fletrejet, Thursday, 23 January 2003 00:28 (13 years ago) Permalink

but what about those of us who are, err, "casual players" as it were and just want a nice game to waste some time with as opposed to a weapon to "consistently trounce educated adult men with high-paying jobs"?

dude i was like fifteen ...

fields of salmon (fieldsofsalmon), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:29 (13 years ago) Permalink

I sold all my cards to some dork for like $20.
I still sometime would like to play, but alas; it is too expensive.

A Nairn (moretap), Thursday, 23 January 2003 05:51 (13 years ago) Permalink

dude i was like fifteen ...

Haha, maybe that was a bit too nasty on my part, but still- why not play any way you bloody please (or was that "You MUST..." comment just the way you saw it when you were 15?)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Thursday, 23 January 2003 11:32 (13 years ago) Permalink

If we judge a game by its players, and I judge this by the few people I've ever met or seen who play it, it's as dud as it comes. (This is not meant to comment on the people here, none of whom I have met.)

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Thursday, 23 January 2003 18:24 (13 years ago) Permalink

I used to play... PROFESSIONALLY. How sad is that? You can make good money at it to be honest. The saddest thing most times are people who play it. It's 90-95% male, they're all super homophobes too. I used to wear t-shirts that implied I was gay just to mess with the competition.. and to get pictures of me in em in Magic publications (yes, there are a few). I enjoyed the game and the rules, and I met some good people along the way. The best part about Magic players is that they are willing to play almost anything.. so once you get fed up with Magic (which everyone does), they will try any other activity or game (Set, Settlers of Cataan), and jump on it.

I'm going to be branded a geek now.. aren't I?

Christopher (Christopher), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:41 (13 years ago) Permalink

This is an internet message board Christopher = we are all geeks.

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Monday, 3 February 2003 22:44 (13 years ago) Permalink

it's fun, if you have money to waste and friends that don't take it seriously.

webber (webber), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 00:07 (13 years ago) Permalink

I used to wear t-shirts that implied I was gay just to mess with the competition..

Let's count the ways we could parse that sentence, hmm?

Chris P (Chris P), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 01:41 (13 years ago) Permalink

Let's make that a little clearer... heh.

A lot of Magic players are homophobic (in my experience) and in order to throw them off of their game, I would wear a shirt that symbolized gay pride.

What's really scary is that I'm thinking about playing in a sealed deck PTQ in a couple of weeks just to see if I can still compete after not playing for years.

Christopher (Christopher), Tuesday, 4 February 2003 16:24 (13 years ago) Permalink

1 year passes...
Who up in this bitch fancies a game of memory M:TG*? I'm bored.

* (the one where you start with no cards in your card, draw one of your choice per turn, and no card can be played twice? It's kinda fun...)

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Sunday, 18 April 2004 14:34 (12 years ago) Permalink

I used to play a lot around 14-16 and did pretty good, but when I think
of all the money I spent on cards that just sit in boxes up in my closet
I get all teary-eyed. Those should be records sitting idle, not cards!

stephen morris (stephen morris), Sunday, 18 April 2004 16:35 (12 years ago) Permalink

Dud as hell. When I was 12 or 13 or so I went with my friend (who was into Magic cards at the time) to a Magic the Gathering "tournament" being held at the local Barnes & Noble. While my friend was playing Magic with someone, I walked around watching the others in attendance. At one table this guy playing said something like "I'm playing the Wall of Flame card". This other guy at the table said, "I'm gonna play the Wall of Pubic Hair card, hehehehhehe" in this horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voice. That was when I realized that there were people far nerdier than I could ever be.

latebloomer (latebloomer), Sunday, 18 April 2004 17:24 (12 years ago) Permalink

3 months pass...
The game itself = Classic: it will be around for years to come, probably our nerdier kids will be into it or some incarnation of it.

The "90-95% super homophobe" players mentioned above = DUD. If I was rich (xpost it's expensive xpost) I'd probably play Magic Online, and not have to see the fat guys with "horribly nasal and stereotypically nerdy voices" that unfortunately define the game.

Richard K (Richard K), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 03:55 (11 years ago) Permalink

I can't believe I never posted to this thread. I probably spent twenty bucks on it total, maybe thirty. It was one summer, a fun thing, a moment in time, a nice little cultural artifact.

teeny (teeny), Tuesday, 3 August 2004 04:06 (11 years ago) Permalink

3 years pass...

i've been having a lot of "fun" playing with the old cards I rescued from my mom's house. i refuse to spend another cent on the game, however.

ian, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

a couple years ago i went to a card & comix shop and built a decent blue-white deck for like $4.00, but all the newer card editions just had all these new retarded esoteric abilities that i had no idea about

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:16 (8 years ago) Permalink

also, the art was all these, like, cyber dragons and BULLSHIT

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:21 (8 years ago) Permalink

We should start an ILG thread where we play against each other using SCANNERS.

nickalicious, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

i only played magic for the first time a few weeks ago, how weird is that? i was intimidated by the kids who played it in high school, but it's not half as complicated as i thought.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:50 (8 years ago) Permalink

you should have been more intimidated by their allowances

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:56 (8 years ago) Permalink

and/or dedication to blowing every dollar earned at the drive-thru window sunday 5am-1:30pm on crazy junk instead of like cigarettes and cds

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

that is correct i am calling you bustas out

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 20:57 (8 years ago) Permalink

what are you talking about, i pinched a franklin from my dad's wallet to buy a mox jet

elmo argonaut, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:01 (8 years ago) Permalink

haha, i think i was most intimidated by their cliquish aspie superiority complexes.

i think it's really fun now though.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:03 (8 years ago) Permalink

ok these prices are so retarded omg

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (8 years ago) Permalink

people should all be blown up

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:06 (8 years ago) Permalink

in my middle school the biggest fight i got into was between pog players and m:tg players

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

i was obviously a magic player

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:09 (8 years ago) Permalink

green & white deck, in case anyone is wondering

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

omg pog

deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

if i remember those years correctly i was more worried about the shame my seminoles starter jacket would bring me after danny wuerrfle's gators pounced on them in the orange bowl than anything having to do with those fucking things

deeznuts, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:14 (8 years ago) Permalink

I used to play magic back in the mid-nineties, I still have a hundreds and hundreds of those cards in some box around here. I never paid much for them though, because I stole most of them from bookstores. I wonder if that stuff is worth something these days, the oldest cards I have are from Revised Edition or whatever it was called.

Tuomas, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:24 (8 years ago) Permalink

god, my nerd days were spent playing Avalon Hill wargames. and banging chicks of course

brownie, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:26 (8 years ago) Permalink

my best nerd days are ahead of me still.

bell_labs, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:27 (8 years ago) Permalink

mine did not look quite as good as this one but I got pretty good

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

i had a revised shivan dragon worth $50

max, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

and my color selections were more noise

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 21:38 (8 years ago) Permalink

haha shivan dragon. back in 1995 my friend's proudest accomplishment was owning 4 shivan dragons. I wonder if those cards are worth anything today.

burt_stanton, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:04 (8 years ago) Permalink

blue + black deck, my sengir vampires and royal assassins were so so gangster.

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

i had two revised royal assassins

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:10 (8 years ago) Permalink

maybe more, hell if i remember

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:11 (8 years ago) Permalink

at my 10th bday party i beat the rich kid in magic even tho i had no allowance, i had birthday money and was a HUSTLER with trades

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:12 (8 years ago) Permalink

i think sometimes i threw in some green too, but only if u could throw all mana down first turn and i would use it solely for my force of nature

deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:18 (8 years ago) Permalink


deej, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:18 (8 years ago) Permalink

i have a shivan dragon signed by the lady what painted it ;_;

Jimmy The Mod Awaits The Return Of His Beloved, Tuesday, 23 October 2007 22:25 (8 years ago) Permalink

yeah i've probably rambled about this on here before but the foundation for mtg lore has shifted from bad fantasy novels to superhero comics. i spent my childhood reading the former and not the latter so it's a pretty negative change for me

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:13 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i do think making the story much more tightly woven in with the game itself is a reasonable thing to do but it's extremely limiting. i would guess the current approach probably works for the kind of audience that the story is going to have a real impact upon, particularly younger players. i'd love them to actually take advantage of the limitations of the format for storytelling in a similar way that the dark souls series has but that would have a pretty narrow appeal.

Roberto Spiralli, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:15 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I wonder if this has something to do w/ the superhero movie boom, the mtg movie has been in the works for years now and maybe they think there's some way to turn it into the next x-men franchise

imprisoned in the moon actually seems pretty strong fwiw, gives mono-u an answer to any creature/planeswalker/land across formats

iatee, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:17 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

they've moved back towards the approach they used in tempest thru invasion blocks where they show actual story moments on the cards (e.g. fall of the titans, anguished unmaking, tragic arrogance, why are they all removal spells idk), rather than just pure worldbuilding with the story as a supplemental thing which is what they did for a while. the difference is either that the story isn't as good now or we all grew up, probably some of both.

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:19 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

also the novelty aspect is gone

it's just funny cause maro seems to be so excited about all the work their writers have done and who knows maybe their market research supports that and there are a bunch of kitchen table types who are just thrilled every time they see jace and gideon on a card. I think an extended return to dominaria and the original urza/mishra storyline would probably be hugely successful. time spiral + coldsnaps were failures cause 1000 mechanics + poorly developed set not because of their flavor.

iatee, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:47 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

yeah i agree with that. i do think with 2 blocks a year that we'll see dominaria again before too long but i'm not sure at this point that they'd do an actual retro magic story rather than just send the planeswalker justice league there

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:49 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I liked Time Spiral block a lot but it should've been clear to them that it wasn't going to appeal to anyone who wasn't a long-time player already and that's why it's looked upon as a 'failure'. I've found the #1 complaint from new players is that there are just too many words and terms to memorize and TSP block took that to a ridiculous degree. Plus Sprout Swarm which seemed like it was...not playtested at all

FWIW I thought Coldsnap was reasonably well developed, but 3x a small set isn't going to be a good format no matter what you do. The novelty of drafting it with Ice Age and Alliances wears off pretty quick when you realize how low the power level of those old cards really were - so many random downsides and cards with 6 lines of texts that ultimately don't do anything.

frogbs, Thursday, 7 July 2016 15:52 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I'm not into the mock-superhero stuff at all but I'm not the target audience - I still find it less embarassing than the Weatherlight stuff, though, which really makes me feel bad about the hobby every time I encounter it. I did like the "self-contained sad stories" vibe they went with in between but it's not at all marketable and it's not like anyone was "engaged" with it, it just felt, like, non-awful.

Gravel Puzzleworth, Thursday, 7 July 2016 17:27 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Also Martin Shkreli <3 <3 this game is home to so much beautiful stupidity i love itttttt

Gravel Puzzleworth, Thursday, 7 July 2016 17:30 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

not sure he'll actually do it, but someone who really wants to mess w/ the secondary market could do wonders with $1m

iatee, Thursday, 7 July 2016 20:39 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I know, the whole idea is pretty funny

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Thursday, 7 July 2016 20:42 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

We already know he'd spend that much for a wu-tang album

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Thursday, 7 July 2016 20:43 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

there was a massive buyout of Lions Eye Diamonds which caused the price to spike a good amount

frogbs, Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:01 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i have a playset of serra's sanctums which is suddenly worth $500 instead of $100 i dont know what happened there

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:13 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

theres some folks buying out a bunch of reserved list legacy cards

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:13 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

so my understanding is that some #mtgfinance zero orchestrated buyouts of (in order) led, city of traitors, serra's sanctum and gaea's cradle spurring ppl to call him the 'martin shkreli of mtg'. now thanks to google alerts weve got actual shkreli talking about buying up reserved list cards which is... idk what that is actually.

i thought during the period from og innistrad to serial killer garruk the mtg story was... not embarrassing. i feel like trying to squeeze 'story moments' into card art never works, even just visually? the scope is wrong, its too small and static and the cards look shitty fan art.

( ^_^) (Lamp), Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:16 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

ive been slowly selling off my excess cards and foil modern cards and reserve-list-but-not-tournament-playable cards over the last year. ive used some of the money to get stuff like a mint library (only US$360 fourteen months ago!), bazaars and power and a full set of duals but ive also been cashing out a lot. i genuinely believe mtg is reaching a bad place financially although im not sure what the means, exactly. i think the short term result is increased pressure on dealers/stores who are holding way too much money in inventory as more players decide to cash out. i think vendors will be slow-ish to panic on singles but i worry about financial pressure effecting organized play negatively. i dont think tournament players (or maybe even wotc) realize who reliant the game is on stores being willing to run negative equity events like pptqs, wmcqs, even fnms &c

( ^_^) (Lamp), Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:22 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

many posting on my phone is hard

( ^_^) (Lamp), Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:23 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i'm curious how the game is selling now, i remember from OG zendikar thru theros they made a big deal of showing how sales were growing rapidly year over year and then they kind of went quiet on that front circa khans

i don't know if legacy is fucked but if it is then that probably spills into modern too. standard has been mediocre for a few seasons now so i'm not really sure what constructed format people are digging if any. it honestly feels like they've overcompensated for the mistakes of the past at this point, with white and green and midrange creature decks being overpushed. they hit a good balance circa RTR and then blasted right on past it.

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:36 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

the game is still good though, don't wanna be all doom and gloom, but competitive constructed definitely has some issues to sort out. modern's prob the healthiest constructed format overall right now but still has some core issues re: card availability and combo deck matchups

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 21:52 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i havent particularly enjoyed the current standard but like the format generally. i think modern is garbage but thats a personal thing. i do think the secondary market as a whole is in a really bad place though and i think players dont realize how much that impacts the ecosystem no matter how good or bad certain formats are

( ^_^) (Lamp), Thursday, 7 July 2016 22:01 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

players need to want to own cards more than they want to sell them basically

( ^_^) (Lamp), Thursday, 7 July 2016 22:02 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I think legacy is healthyish though a lot of people grumble about miracles. eldrazi is pretty dumb and I think they need to ban chalice, kinda expect it to happen one day.

modern is in a wild west state, though I have a feeling that nahiri control might end up 'the best deck' once it's solved. I think there's debate as to whether a format that's been solved and has best decks is 'healthier' than one that doesn't. I always feel like I have the least competitive advantage playing modern, my modern win % has always been way lower than my win % for every other format. (though I don't play standard.)

iatee, Thursday, 7 July 2016 22:02 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

players need to want to own cards more than they want to sell them basically

people also refuse to take losses on anything other than standard cards and don't like trading away any of their high value stuff ever. I think this leads to a situation where all 'high value cards' end up even more expensive than they should be. e.g. nobody wants bitterblossom but nobody trades their bitterblossoms.

iatee, Thursday, 7 July 2016 22:05 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

standard is my favorite format historically, just think it's a bit less diverse/balanced lately than usual

ciderpress, Thursday, 7 July 2016 22:10 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

looks like they took EMA down. what did you guys think overall? I drafted it ~25 times online and wasn't completely sick of it yet. kinda was MM-style limited where you pick a lane and go with it but there were a lot of fun strategies and a lot of ways to build a 4/5c deck. I was always scared someone would be clever enough to price of progress me when I drafted 11 dual decks but it never actually happened.

iatee, Thursday, 7 July 2016 23:53 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

Apparently Shkreli a lead bought a bunch of Black Lotuses. I find the whole situation pretty hilarious.

I think standard is a bit better now than during BFZ, but not great. I really enjoyed it during Khans block.

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Friday, 8 July 2016 00:05 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

a lead = already

Al Moon Faced Poon (Moodles), Friday, 8 July 2016 00:05 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

e.g. nobody wants bitterblossom but nobody trades their bitterblossoms.

Yeah I feel intuitively that this is very bad, but it's hard for me to articulate exactly why?

I feel like "format diversity" is what everyone wants but there's massive dishonesty re: admitting that format diversity is often to a large degree a financial effect, like in Modern people keep playing "their deck" even when it's tier 2.5 or whatever because acquiring another is just this impossible shuddering effort. So I don't know if there's a way to have both "access" and "diversity".

Gravel Puzzleworth, Friday, 8 July 2016 00:41 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

thats definitely the case for modern/legacy, but in standard we've had formats with as many as a dozen 'top tier' decks at once, and right now it feels really skewed towards green midrange and collected company decks which is only a few decks

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 01:25 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i think what i dislike is more the color imbalance than the number of archetypes tbh. i didn't mind caw-blade standard since there was a good RB deck on the next step down rather than another UW deck

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 01:43 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

I'm FB friends with the dude who did the LED and Moat buyouts, used to see him a lot at PTQs. He's gotten SO much hate for buying like 40 copies of these cards, and I think maybe 0.5% of the complainers had any intention to buy these cards, if that. He not only got comparisons to Shkreli, but Hitler as well. And death threats. I'm finding it pretty hilarious and I think he is too. Now that the real Shkreli is involved I can't wait to see what happens

Vinnie, Friday, 8 July 2016 11:24 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

40 copies, really? That's all it takes to move the price that much?

frogbs, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:18 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

There's not a ton on the tcgplayer market at any one time so if you buy that many people see them 'sold out' and panic

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:19 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

really feel like I ought to sell out right now, Library of Alexandria is hitting a grand

frogbs, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:23 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i've been trying to downsize my collection for a while but a big chunk of it is old standard staples that are marginal in modern and thus have low demand, i've found a lot of these cards aren't actually worth nearly the amount they're supposedly selling for when you look at tcgplayer price. e.g. restoration angel is $12 median currently but no one actually needs them.

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:39 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

yeah that's the issue I'm gonna have to. my collection is supposedly worth like 20k or something according to these websites but I can't imagine anyone giving me more than 5k or 6k in a single shot. like someone is telling me "SELL YOUR CRADLES NOW!" which I get, it's over $200 now, but is there really any liquidity at that price?

frogbs, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:41 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

you could look at the major vendor online buylist prices or do it at the next big event near you

iatee, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:44 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i'd like to go down to 1 deck per format but ever since the birthing pod ban i haven't been able to figure out the 1 modern deck that i'd be happy running forever. i was playing scapeshift for a while but the emergence of infect as a popular deck has made that kind of frustrating

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:52 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i've been waiting for someone to come up with a good thopter foundry list since i love thirst for knowledge decks but that doesn't seem to be happening

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 13:53 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

first thing i noticed is common removal is total garbage. murder and exile lightning strike at uncommon feel like bombs

also, the missing zombies from SOI have arrived

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 8 July 2016 15:33 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

i just want to kill people with Stensia Banquet, that concept is really funny to me

ciderpress, Friday, 8 July 2016 15:39 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

xp yeah he's only buying from tcgplayer, not eBay, so yeah 40 copies is everything available

Vinnie, Saturday, 9 July 2016 02:35 (2 weeks ago) Permalink

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