Nirvana C/D

Biggie feels distinctly '90s. Garth too, despite getting his start in the Interzone.

otm

xpost

I'm with Alfred here. I don't think the extra Neil Young debt that elevates Cobain above his PNW contemporaries is entirely commensurate with the level of his band's accomplishment. The FNM/Jane's/general-gradual-acceptance-of-harder-rock-as-possibly-acceptable-style quotient is a big factor

It's not a binary, though. Talent + luck.

― So who you gonna call? The martini police (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 2:15 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

oh yeah, ofc, i just also don't necessarily credit it to vig/wallace, guess i'm still talking about production here

nevermind does sound really really incredible tho

when my buddy Greg bought it on a late November morning record store trip (I bought Robyn Hitchcock's Perspex Island) and put the tape in the car, it boomed like Def Leppard.

Sidenote: It took me way too long to realize FNM wasn't a mistyped REM or NIN (both of whom also as important as FNM to this discussion).

nevermind does sound really really incredible tho

so do a lot of the records Butch Vig worked on around that time! none of those records had "teen spirit," but "teen spirit" plus the full court press goes a long way.

Sidenote: It took me way too long to realize FNM wasn't a mistyped REM or NIN (both of whom also as important as FNM to this discussion).

― blue whales on ambient (C. Grisso/McCain)

I thought it stood for Fine Noung Mannibals.

trust me i am not trying to downplay butch vig's work lol, even his later records which are mastered abominably i tend to still love the sound of

There must be an ancient Geir Hongro thread on here on Nirvana vs. Nirvana Uk where he says that although the American Nirvana had a couple of nice songs, the British Nirvana were much better overall.

― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 3:26 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol he made a post like this in this very thread

nirvana ruled

Of course he did.

One of the first music related texts I had was this Life magazine special issue from 1992 on the last 40 years of rock that i swiped from my dad. It had a big feature on Guns N Roses at the end and made a point of saying how Axl Rose was totally macho even though he wore a blouse. In the accompanying photo of some of the band are sitting in a hot tub backstage with varuious blonde groupies.

I don't think Kurt Cobain wearing a dress would have been seen as necessarily effeminate by their college jock fans at the time, let alone offputting.

The FNM/Jane's/general-gradual-acceptance-of-harder-rock-as-possibly-acceptable-style quotient is a big factor

From what I remember, a lot of the contemporary press coverage had it the other way around, taking the acceptance of hard rock/metal as a given and suggesting that discernable hard rock roots, however embarrassing to the band, may have been key to Nirvana's broader appeal.

very individual voice that struck the balance between sophisticated and raw/tossed off

Precisely the qualities that make me inclined to perceive their superstardom as an unlikely twist?

I was three years old when Smells Like Teen Spirit came out and I had pretty much no concept of Nirvana and Cobain until I was older. Lots of people at school had Nirvana hoodies but they were the "mosher" crowd, the same folk who had Slipknot and Limp Bizkit hoodies, very much music for a certain type of teenager (and in my experience, overwhelmingly male). It's what put me off investigating them for so long despite having discovered and loving Pixies on my own - it was loved by an audience who weren't welcoming to me as an effete gay teenager, and who seemed to like a lot of music that was characterised by things I don't enjoy the sound and style of. The idea of Cobain as anti-heteronormative really didn't align with the people who I saw identify as fans.

Not to undercut Cobain's agency, but with breakthroughs as seismic as Nevermind's you can't overlook serendipity. The album broke the autumn when (a) alternative/college/'modern rock lol' culture had made considerable commercial and cultural inroads, thanks, in part to Pixies, the Smithereens, and their friends in the UK; (b) Soundscan had just made this breakthrough possible. In '91 we learned how popular country and hip-hop were and had always been; now the actual sales told the tale.

OTM Alfred. I also want to add Sinéad O'Connor and R.E.M. in there for making the U.S. pop charts much more alt-friendly by the time Nevermind and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" landed in the fall of '91 - both got a multiplatinum album and a #1 and a #4 single respectively. And something about the Soundscan thing always unnerved me - like, if Soundscan had been delayed by a few years for whatever reason, what would that mean? Would the actual sales for people like N.W.A. or Nirvana have been undercut and reported at a fraction of what they really were? In all seriousness, I wouldn't know how much of a difference it would make, but could they seriously have been merely gold records at best going by the old system?

Listen, you could've produced Kurt's songs any way and they would've been massive -- I don't think the production on Doolittle or Flip Your Wig/Candy Apple Grey did anything good for their respective artists, and yes Vig did an exceptional job on Nevermind, but Kurt is in a league of his own even when he's recording onto a fucking boombox. I think it has a lot to do with the hooks and the really unusual songwriting in a technical sense--I've said this before but there's a series of great posts on ILX in one of the infinite Nirvana threads that analyzes their songs harmonically and whatever, I'm too dumb to go on but the person said something to the effect of Kurt using dissonant thirds or something. Please someone find that post. They talk about the descending vocal line in the chorus of "Lithium."

It's in the power chords he used, how they make NO sense together, yet somehow do. "Lithium" is not only immediately recognizable on an acoustic guitar, it also sounds completely different from most other pop music using standard major and minor chord patterns.

Yeah, I wouldn't say the chords make no sense together but the modal mixture and melody-writing is definitely distinctive and effective - to me, though, this answers "why the songs are good", not "why they became Michael Jackson-level popular".

And something about the Soundscan thing always unnerved me - like, if Soundscan had been delayed by a few years for whatever reason, what would that mean? Would the actual sales for people like N.W.A. or Nirvana have been undercut and reported at a fraction of what they really were? In all seriousness, I wouldn't know how much of a difference it would make, but could they seriously have been merely gold records at best going by the old system?

Yes! Rob Harvilla's Ringer article from last week has the tasty details.

I mean, I was 11 in 1990 and I could tell that hair metal was done and the next big rock thing was probably going to be one of the bands they were calling 'alternative', though I would not have expected it to be as big as it was.xp

to me, though, this answers "why the songs are good", not "why they became Michael Jackson-level popular".

― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r),

Exactly!!

Yes! Rob Harvilla's Ringer article from last week has the tasty details.

Yikes!

Hate to use Garth Brooks as the example, but it's the clearest one from the article:

"It is not quite right to say that SoundScan made Garth Brooks: His second album, 1990’s No Fences, was already a Top 20 hit, though it did jump from no. 16 to no. 4 the week of the changeover. But it’s safe to say he doesn’t score a no. 1 debut with Ropin’ the Wind later in ’91—let alone kick off a string of nine no. 1 albums—if the chart isn’t better reflecting how gargantuan he’d already gotten.

'“Once you realize Garth Brooks is selling better than Mariah Carey and Pearl Jam, and consistently every year, you promote him accordingly,” Molanphy says. “Does Garth Brooks get a Central Park concert in 1997 without SoundScan? Maybe, maybe not.”'

It really shows the domino effect, where more certified/confirmed sales leads to more promotional support from the label, which leads to even more sales, etc. and that circular momentum just keeps going.

to me, though, this answers "why the songs are good", not "why they became Michael Jackson-level popular".

― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r),

Exactly!!

― Fauna Sukkot (Deflatormouse), Wednesday, June 2, 2021 4:03 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol i mean yeah that tracks, sometimes when i am listening to nirvana i get so besotted cobain's melodic talents + his lyrical voice that i'm like, oh yeah, of course this connected (as soon as the lane opened for it). even on bleach, sometimes especially on bleach

obviously right place, right time was a huge factor, but i don't think pixies/husker du/replacements etc. ever had anywhere near the same sort of focus as nirvana did on nevermind, especially with its singles.

looking at butch vig's production credits i'm a little surprised at how few other notable albums from the time he worked on, there's like, siamese dream and dirty (and other albums by both those bands), and then pretty much everything else from that period is just lesser known grunge bands

^yeah, I looked earlier and the exact same reaction. It's like right after Nevermind, there was Tad or something

tbf 8-Way Santa is an excellent album! first time i saw Nirvana, they were supporting Tad

2003: AFI – Sing the Sorrow
2007: Jimmy Eat World – Chase This Light
2007: Against Me! – New Wave
2009: Green Day – 21st Century Breakdown
2010: Against Me! – White Crosses

fucking love ALL of these records

those against me! records are great, they really gelled with his style

I also want to add Sinéad O'Connor and R.E.M. in there for making the U.S. pop charts much more alt-friendly by the time Nevermind and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" landed in the fall of '91

Idk i distinctly remember picking out a CD in the basement of Nobody Beats the WIZ in like 1994 and this kid a year or two younger than me walks in with his mom and asks the salesperson to help him find "Smash" by the Offspring, and he hands it to the kid and the mom says "Are you SURE this is what you want?? Wouldn't you prefer another REM album?"

:D

Andy Wallace and Howie Weinberg were big names at the time tbf.

Let's not forget Bob Mould was among the producers approached for Blue Baby.

xxp kid's mom OTM

FYI Tad was an influence on Nirvana, and the band was very highly regarded at the time

their records still hold up too, imo

#1 for weeks too

I mean I’m not knocking Tad, I just thought his credits would be a string of huge albums after Nevermind.

probably already mentioned by I remember reading that the band/kurt selected Andy Wallace cuz they/he liked what he did with slayer

I just need to say how much I absolutely love the production on Dirty, since it's been mentioned. A true favorite.

probably already mentioned by I remember reading that the band/kurt selected Andy Wallace cuz they/he liked what he did with slayer

Yes. After Kurt drove Butch crazy with his constantly-shifting mixing demands, the label gave the band a list of mixing engineers that the label would prefer and asked them to pick one. Each name had a selection of relevant credits next to them, and when they looked at Wallace, they immediately recognizing the Slayer records and went with him. Either Krist or Dave later explained why that appealed to them, commenting on the thickness of those Slayer mixes. (It was probably Krist since he was likely to benefit the most as the bass player.)

It's funny to think that Wallace also remixed Madonna's biggest '80s hits. If you have the The Immaculate Collection compilation from 1990, listen to "Into the Groove," he actually plays that keyboard break. (He added it when he made the You Can Dance remix.)

Also, before I read Wallace's interview on mixing Nevermind, my understanding of mixing was limited to what I had read about records in the pre-digital era. Needless to say, it's a pretty gigantic leap to what you could do with computers at your disposal. Too many details to remember, but the one that stuck out was how he got Grohl's snare to sound especially good - by taking a pre-made sample and mixing it in with every single snare hit on the multi-track. So every time you heard that drum hit, it was really two different sounds fused together.

*immediately recognized

He did the same thing on Dirty too (as per Browne's Goodbye 20th Century).

Tangential but my favourite story about those sessions from that book is Vig making Moore and Ranaldo figure out exactly how detuned their strings were with strobe tuners.

when my buddy Greg bought it on a late November morning record store trip (I bought Robyn Hitchcock's Perspex Island) and put the tape in the car, it boomed like Def Leppard.

Although I already loved Teen Spirit it was hearing On A Plain on Simon Barnett's GLR radio show that made Nevermind a must-purchase for me, as the blend of harmonies and heavy guitars was absolutely intoxicating, and definitely tapped into what I'd liked about Def Leppard as a kid.

Watching “Live at the Paramount” on AXS TV… this is a pretty ripping concert film, never seen it before.

Yes. I don't know jack about filming a concert (or filming anything for that matter) but I've always thought that one looks incredible. Really feels like you're there, practically on stage at times.

been listening to this band nonstop

They are a good one.

they're so good! i'm getting to know bleach for the first time

On my radio show this week I paid tribute to Kurt Cobain by playing two hours of Nirvana covers from the 90s:

The King - Come as You Are
Dead Sex Kitten - On a Plain
Ash - Blew
Cibo Matto - About a Girl
Kurt Cobain - Dumb (solo acoustic KAOS FM)
Tankcsapda - Egyszerü dal
Wasted Youth - Floyd the Barber
Sonic Youth - Moist Vagina
Whistler - All Apologies
T.U.L.P. - Make You Unhappy
Skanic - Breed
Kristin Hersh - Pennyroyal Tea
Nirvana GB - Lithium
Dr. Know - Aneurysm
Dover - Territorial Pissings
The Lounge Brigade - Heart Shaped Box
Zircus - Drain You
Les Bidochons - Crêperie
Kurt Cobain - Do Re Mi

Smells Like Teen Spirit Megamix: (starts at 1:10:00)
- Tinman - Eighteen Strings
- Calcutta Anazamama - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Neophyte and the Stunned Guys - Army of Hardcore
- Credit to the Nation - Call It What You Want
- Tori Amos - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- The Flying Pickets - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Nonex - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Lords of the Underground - Haters
- Sara DeBell - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Wheetstone Bridge - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Mary Lou Lord - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Xorcist - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Melvins - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Abigail - Smells Like Teen Spirit
- Balloon - Monstersound

Tura Satana - Negative Creep
Jonny Polonsky - In Bloom
Laura Love - Come as You Are
Digital Factor - Rape Me
UK Subs - Stay Away
Flipper - Scentless Apprentice
Paw - School
Baptism - Something in the Way
Nirvana - You Know You're Right

Kristin! I feel like I've heard her talk about Kurt before

When the With The Lights Out box was released I had a weekly slot on the 6Music breakfast show reviewing that week's new releases. I chose Do Re Mi as the track to be played on air, and after playing it the producer took me aside and had a frank and rather scathing chat with me over what constituted music you might feasibly play on a national breakfast show.