That situation perhaps applies in some of the comics, but the movie doesn't give enough information to interpret the situation so. It's exactly because the movie aims for realism that you feel compelled to judge it by real world rules, and in real life, no matter how corrupt a city, few would suggest vigilantism as the answer. (Of course, there are still some who do: take the death patrols in Brazil, for example.)
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:08 (eighteen years ago) link
And yet they didnt see a wave of vigilantism back then, did they?
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:10 (eighteen years ago) link
Yes, I guess it was necessary for him to beat stop the League of Shadows' evil plot - that's the fantasy part of the film, and I have no problem with that. But it's the idea of Batman, the idea of a vigilante, that I find disturbing, and that is something the film takes very seriously. As I said, the film's stance on this very slippery: it sorta condemns Batman, but in the end really doesn't.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:18 (eighteen years ago) link
batman is a (basically) *good* vigilante, though. he only punishes the bad. (aren't the death squads really state forces anyway?)
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:21 (eighteen years ago) link
I'll say it one more time: this isn't Taxi Driver, this the first episode of a new Batman series, and the film certainly isn't bold enough to condemn Batman's actions and make him an anti-hero like Travis Bickle.
(x-post)
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:25 (eighteen years ago) link
Ah, but the problem with vigilantes is exactly that: they have only their own morality to make the judgement on who's "bad", and therefore "worthy" of the punishment. No doubt the people in the death squads think they're doing something good too.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:28 (eighteen years ago) link
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:34 (eighteen years ago) link
thinking about it, batman begins is far more critical of its protag than taxi driver.
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:41 (eighteen years ago) link
On a surface level, maybe (in that it has a couple of critical speeches pointed at Batman), but Taxi Driver certainly doesn't claim Travis Bickle is a hero, and I hope it's viewers don't think so either. That isn't the case with Batman Begins.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:48 (eighteen years ago) link
I think I do, but the issue we're debating here is whether Batman Begins is a tragedy, or a "hero story". Or to be more correct, it's both, but I think it emphasizes the hero aspect too much, whereas others might disagree.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:48 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 11:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:30 (eighteen years ago) link
― AaronK (AaronK), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:31 (eighteen years ago) link
"I'll take 'Things That A More Aware/Intuitive Person Wouldn't Say To An African-American' for $800, Alex." Jesus Christ.
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:37 (eighteen years ago) link
Why don't you tell everybody what the fuck you gotta say?
Fuck tha policeComin straight from the undergroundYoung nigga got it bad cuz I'm brownAnd not the other color so police thinkThey have the authority to kill a minority
Fuck that shit, cuz I ain't tha oneFor a punk muthafucka with a badge and a gunTo be beatin on, and throwin in jailWe could go toe to toe in the middle of a cell
Fuckin with me cuz I'm a teenagerWith a little bit of gold and a pagerSearchin my car, lookin for the productThinkin every nigga is sellin narcotics
You'd rather see me in the penThen me and Lorenzo rollin in the BenzoBeat tha police outta shapeAnd when I'm finished, bring the yellow tapeTo tape off the scene of the slaughterStill can't swallow bread and water
I don't know if they fags or whatSearch a nigga down and grabbin his nutsAnd on the other hand, without a gun they can't get noneBut don't let it be a black and a white oneCuz they slam ya down to the street topBlack police showin out for the white cop
Ice Cube will swarmOn any muthafucka in a blue uniformJust cuz I'm from the CPT, punk police are afraid of meA young nigga on a warpathAnd when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbathOf cops, dyin in LAYo Dre, I got somethin to say
Fuck the police (4X)
M. C. Ren, will you please give your testimony to the jury about this fucked up incident.>
Fuck tha police and Ren said it with authoritybecause the niggaz on the street is a majority.A gang, is with whoever I'm steppingand the motherfuckin' weaponis kept in a stash box, for the so-called lawwishin' Ren was a nigga that they never saw
Lights start flashin behind meBut they're scared of a nigga so they mace me to blind meBut that shit don't work, I just laughBecause it gives em a hint not to step in my path
To the police I'm sayin fuck you punkReadin my rights and shit, it's all junkPullin out a silly club, so you standWith a fake assed badge and a gun in your hand
But take off the gun so you can see what's upAnd we'll go at it punk, I'ma fuck you up
Make ya think I'm a kick your assBut drop your gat, and Ren's gonna blastI'm sneaky as fuck when it comes to crimeBut I'm a smoke em now, and not next time
Smoke any muthafucka that sweats meOr any assho that threatens meI'm a sniper with a hell of a scopeTakin out a cop or two, they can't cope with me
The muthafuckin villian that's madWith potential to get bad as fuckSo I'm a turn it aroundPut in my clip, yo, and this is the soundYa, somethin like that, but it all depends on the size of the gat
Takin out a police would make my dayBut a nigga like Ren don't give a fuck to say
Police, open now. We have a warrant for Eazy-E's arrest.Get down and put your hands up where I can see em.Just shut the fuck up and get your muthafuckin ass on the floor.[huh?]>
and tell the jury how you feel abou this bullshit.>
I'm tired of the muthafuckin jackinSweatin my gang while I'm chillin in the shackinShining tha light in my face, and for whatMaybe it's because I kick so much butt
I kick ass, or maybe cuz I blastOn a stupid assed nigga when I'm playin with the triggaOf any Uzi or an AKCuz the police always got somethin stupid to say
They put up my picture with silenceCuz my identity by itself causes violenceThe E with the criminal behaviorYeah, I'm a gansta, but still I got flavor
Without a gun and a badge, what do ya got?A sucka in a uniform waitin to get shot,By me, or another nigga.and with a gat it don't matter if he's smarter or bigger[MC Ren: Sidle him, kid, he's from the old school, fool]
And as you all know, E's here to ruleWhenever I'm rollin, keep lookin in the mirrorAnd there's no cue, yo, so I can hear aDumb muthafucka with a gun
And if I'm rollin off the 8, he'll be tha oneThat I take out, and then get awayAnd while I'm drivin off laughinThis is what I'll say
The jury has found you guilty of bein a redneck,whitebread, chickenshit muthafucka.Wait, that's a lie. That's a goddamn lie.I want justice! I want justice!Fuck you, you black muthafucka!>
Fuck the police (3X)
― latebloomer: i hate myself and want to fly (latebloomer), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:39 (eighteen years ago) link
― The Ghost of Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:44 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:49 (eighteen years ago) link
Dan, sometimes I hate your way of arguing. Of course I can watch morally complex films and understand them, but if I feel a film presents a morally condemnable character as the hero, don't I have the right to criticize it? There are lots of films where morally dubious protagonists are presented as just human beings, not heroes. And similarly, there are lots of fantasy films where good fights against evil, and that's okay too because you aren't suppose to take them that seriously.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 12:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:06 (eighteen years ago) link
What A Time to Kill is saying that it was ok for the Samuel Jackson character to shoot those two guy for revenge. And in my opinion it's never, never ok to kill another person, unless it's self-defence. Obviously the movie is saying that he had a just cause, and it does deal with issues like racism in a compelling way, but it's conclusion was so clearly against my basic values that I have no choice but say it's irredeemable. I'm sorry if that offends you, Dan, that wasn't my intention.
dan totally otm. you seem unable of handling any complexity whatever. your conception of movies is fucked-up anyway: if SLJ wins his case, therefore the film *totally absolves him*? it's cop-think. i don't think this squeaky-clean pacifism is up to the challenges of the real world, in which the rules are set by the winners (in this case, racists) and the people charged with upholding them corrupt.
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:16 (eighteen years ago) link
― Truckdrivin' Buddha (Rock Hardy), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:24 (eighteen years ago) link
Repeat: Finland, Finland, Finland.The country where I quite want to be,Your mountains so lofty,Your treetops so tall.Finland, Finland, Finland,Finland has it all.
Fade: Finland has it all...
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:27 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:34 (eighteen years ago) link
what if during his revenge, the kkk guys had got the upper hand and killed jackson. would that be ok in your book?
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:43 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:47 (eighteen years ago) link
Remember that the League of Shadows is fully entrenched in the GCPD (or GPD, as they're seen in the film). Also, Ra's Al Ghul had already made intimations that he may indeed be immortal (as the character is in the comics), and you'll notice that he can be seen assuming some sort of mediation stance as the train goes down.
Yes, that little teaser of the Joker at the end certainly seemed like a serious plot point and not at all like a lame attempt to set up the sequel.Are you shitting me? Gordon's bit about escalation quite pointed says, "You have fucked up the natural order, Batman."
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:50 (eighteen years ago) link
― Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:54 (eighteen years ago) link
and what about killing in the defense of helpless third parties? it's absolutely terrible that an innocent man was killed in london by the police, recently. but if he *had* been a suicide bomber, the police would have been 100% right.
xpost -- sorry, that's my last non-batman post
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:54 (eighteen years ago) link
But Batman doesn't know this, does he? So as far as he's concerned, Ducard dies.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:55 (eighteen years ago) link
Yes, that is an exception too. But again, rarely is it needed to kill the potential murderer, if there are other ways to stop him. A suicide bombing is a case where that may be required though, obviously.
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 13:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:00 (eighteen years ago) link
It is also the source of much soul searching recently in the comics when he kind of realises that the "he catches 'em, they escape from prison, they kill again" riff means he is partially responsible for future murder sprees.
― Pete (Pete), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:01 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― N_RQ, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:05 (eighteen years ago) link
xxpost
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:05 (eighteen years ago) link
― Huk-L (Huk-L), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:08 (eighteen years ago) link
this is a funny point - considering that Ras al Ghul is immortal and can't be killed (as was hinted at in the movie). what does it mean when a "vigilante" "murders" an immortal? it's sorta inconsequential - just Batman being vicious.
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:50 (eighteen years ago) link
Shakey, Batman doesn't know Ducard is immortal (nor does the movie explicitly state so - you can't use your comic knowledge to evaluate the film, they're two different worlds). This is pretty clear from his last line to Ducard ("I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you.").
― Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 3 August 2005 14:58 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:00 (eighteen years ago) link
― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 3 August 2005 15:01 (eighteen years ago) link