Literary Clusterfucks 2013

a lot of people do sidestep this dilemma by imagining that prisons are mostly filled with non-violent drug offenders or the wrongly accused. the truth is that really dismantling mass incarceration means rehabilitating some violent prisoners too.

prisons are mostly filled with such people, and I am sure that Poetry Magazine could have had a great issue comprised solely of poetry by non-violent drug offenders.

it's a lot -- a scandalous amount -- but it's not most. but the thing is, violent offenders also have rights and most could be successfully rehabilitated into society. i'm saying that prison reform at some point would need to look beyond just the offenders that most people would consider sympathetic if it is to truly overcome the injustice in the system.

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violent offenders also have rights and most could be successfully rehabilitated into society. i'm saying that prison reform at some point would need to look beyond just the offenders that most people would consider sympathetic if it is to truly overcome the injustice in the system.

don't disagree but also don't conflate that with "they deserve a chance to be published in a leading poetry magazine"

i agree. in my life, i've known one person who committed murder. i would actually be enraged, i think, if he had a poem published. but i also know people who were closer to his victim than i was who would have a different perspective on this.

The right to publish works of literature does not mean you are entitled to an institutional seal of approval.

This isn't quite the same thing because it exceeds the realm of art, but Trump isn't entitled to a Twitter account either.

don't disagree but also don't conflate that with "they deserve a chance to be published in a leading poetry magazine"

^^^^^^^^^^^

That’s probably the stance of every other literary magazine, and the editorial decision for this single issue can make it an explicit conversation.

There are other ways of impelling this conversation.

turns out some people locked up in the carceral state have "victims"

why victims in quotes?

it's interesting in the context that it seems like almost every other new TV series is about serial killers or abusive cult leaders ... like, there is a cultural interest in people who do evil things. I'm having trouble reconciling that with some of this discussion

That’s probably the stance of every other literary magazine, and the editorial decision for this single issue can make it an explicit conversation.

― ... (Eazy)

I'm just repeating myself, because my response to that is: there are plenty of marginalised voices in the prison population who could use that space. This is basically maintaining establishment structures while pretending to be socially conscious. Fuck this.

xpost

yeah i find it kind of weird, like i've def watched some of it and most serial killers seem like really boring and dumb people to me, like they don't have anything outside of their obsession i don't find it that interesting like some ppl do...but the podcast numbers don't lie i guess

I'm just repeating myself, because my response to that is: there are plenty of marginalised voices in the prison population who could use that space. This is basically maintaining establishment structures while pretending to be socially conscious. Fuck this.

― emil.y, Tuesday, February 2, 2021 2:48 PM (eight seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

OTM thank u

xp i agree sarahell. i'm also thinking about marilyn manson. his allure was "darkness" and violence against women was a common motif in his work. people justified it because it was "just art"... but now we learn that he really was an abusive and sadistic person with many victims...

and so much of the whole issue of the carceral state and punishment has that moral/religious aspect in re redemption and society's obligations to its members.

It also turns out that many people locked in the carceral state are victims who have victims. That doesn't excuse their actions, but if we did a better job of taking care of people as a society, we might not be in the place we're in.

(To be clear, I don't believe this guy is a victim.

I'm talking about the demonstrable fact that many who are subjected to ACEs and other violences as children and young adults are more likely to engage in behaviors that are detrimental to society at large— while they are not blameless, there was a distinct shift away from rehabilitation and community mental health programs in the 70s and 80s, and the rise in the prison population really begins around that time).

ACEs= Adverse Childhood Events, btw

there is a cultural interest in people who do evil things.

Yep, and I have a deep-seated interest in it too. Hell, the curious part of me *wants* to read his poetry so I can see what else happens in the mind of such an awful person. But what overrides that is that I don't want to reward this fucko in any way.

re marilyn manson -- I think when I noted that he was in a relationship with a 19 year-old, I was pretty certain that there was abuse involved. ...

oh me too. but the reality was way worse than what i imagined

I'm talking about the demonstrable fact that many who are subjected to ACEs and other violences as children and young adults are more likely to engage in behaviors that are detrimental to society at large— while they are not blameless, there was a distinct shift away from rehabilitation and community mental health programs in the 70s and 80s, and the rise in the prison population really begins around that time).

though the shift to rehab + mental health was also recent ... like I feel that in the U.S. a humane approach to "criminality" was not the norm, though way back in the day, we used to just "exile" people and run them out of town, back when there was an out of town and a frontier. The 80s and 90s and mandatory sentencing laws were the big shift as I see it, historically.

absolutely— the 50s into the 70s were a time when community childcare, mental health, and rehabilitation facilities actually received some modicum of funding and support. when California increased mandatory minimums, re-classed many non-violent offenses as felonies, and put hundreds of new laws onto the books from 82-92, it led the rest of the country to do so as well. the resultant boom in prison populations was planned, in many ways, by a state that was struggling to find something to do with surplus labor.

yeah ... I remember that period in state history. Dark times. It was the real heyday of the conservative sponsored ballot measures which came out of Prop 13/Howard Jarvis taxpayers assoc. which resulted in reduced funding to cities and counties for education and other social services. As in, these weren't elected officials deciding this, these were things the people voted to do. A lot of it had to do with crimes against children (e.g. the Polly Klaas case). (yes, they were white children) And the media (mostly TV) really pushed the issue into the spotlight and created drama around it. So, that history, for me, is something that gives issues like this Poetry Magazine one, awkward overtones and associations.

Oh yeah, and speaking of rehabilitation and prisons, that was the same era where "we" (voters of CA) recalled state judges who refused to sentence people to death. The anti-Rose Bird campaign

If Poetry magazine is not platforming poems that endorse, excuse or exonerate this prof's crimes, and they fully disclose his identity and reason for being imprisoned, then they have done as much as is necessary and responsible, imo.

― Compromise isn't a principle, it's a method (Aimless), Tuesday, February 2, 2021 1:20 PM (twenty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is the bio that is printed with his poem (except they didn't asterisk the name):

K*** N***** is the author of the poetry collection Saint X (Stephen F. Austin State University Press, 2012) and the story collection Paradise Road (University of Pittsburgh Press, 2007). He lives and writes in Arizona.

i'm also thinking about marilyn manson. his allure was "darkness" and violence against women was a common motif in his work. people justified it because it was "just art"... but now we learn that he really was an abusive and sadistic person with many victims...

the Strauss book came out twenty-three years ago

Marilyn Manson was obviously a cunt and a fuckwit and a talentless chancer from the get-go, anyone surprised by anything emerging about him is truly stupid.

really enjoyed her piece on being a cable installer a while back but yikes

Lauren Hough, author of Leaving Isn't The Hardest Thing, goes on an extended Twitter rant against "fucking nerds" for giving her book 4 and 4.5 star reviews. pic.twitter.com/v5S6HRWCYc

— Bad Writing Takes 🖊️ (@BadWritingTakes) April 16, 2021

(also people who swear in every sentence are so exhausting)

The only thing worse than ratings on Goodreads is people who care a lot about their ratings on Goodreads

Meanwhile it seems Philip Roth's biographer is a creep or worse

Re Hough, by the way, one of my pet peeves is writers who say "y'all" on Twitter though I recognize that in some small set of cases it may actually not be an affectation and that's why I hesitate to publicly denounce the practice

xp I'm tempted to say "birds of a feather..."

yeah the roth biographer thing is bad

oddly enough it also tangentially involves literary clusterfuck veteran ed champion

ew

It takes a clusterfucker

by the way, one of my pet peeves is writers who say "y'all" on Twitter though I recognize that in some small set of cases it may actually not be an affectation and that's why I hesitate to publicly denounce the practice

it's actually a pretty gentle way of being inclusive re trans and non-binary people that find the idiom "you guys" to be problematic. Some people use it because of regional dialect, some people use it to "sound like they're keepin it real," and others use it to try and be sensitive to gendered language standards that privilege the masculine

What's a non-US version though?

All'a yeez maybe

i assume eephus meant the people who unnecessarily sprinkle it in, like ‘y’all, i just got back from the gym, and . . .’

oh as in non-Americans are using this? ... huh. ... I can see in the case of say, a British person who has never lived in the US, that saying "y'all" could be cringe

it's a bit blood sausage in'it?

It makes me cringe when I hear other Canadians use it tbh.

Idk don't want to be sanctimonious about this stuff. I just want to try to be as unintentionally dickish as possible, like checking my use of "Dude" as a generic term, because many people see it as being gendered.

Isn't this partly generational too? Zoomers' uses of 'dude' and 'guy' appear to be more gender-neutral on average. (Correct me if I'm wrong.)

one of the positive aspects of the glasgow dialect is the plural "yous". would be helpful if standard english had an equivalent

I grew up in Illinois where "you guys" was the standard; moved to Georgia in high school where I tried to adopt "y'all" as a solution to the genderedness of "you guys"; later moved back to Chicago and reverted because all the women I worked with said "you guys."

Now I live in Montreal and mostly feel confused. Saying "you all" feels laboured to me, I'm not fond of "folks" (and find "folx" perplexing, plus it's only textual). Basically I wish "y'all" wasn't perceived as cringe, because I think I could switch back to it but I certainly don't have a southern accent.

i saw somebody use "nonbinary gentlefolk" recently and honestly i'm still angry

love to use "y'all"

Since I know you're originally from the US, I wouldn't cringe if I heard you say 'y'all'.

xp

What's a non-US version though?