Batman Begins: The Thread

Oh no! Dumped by a woman with whom he had absolutely no chemistry or any sort of believable relationship.

while sifting through the wreckage of his house

Oh no! The billionaire's home is wrecked. But this time we'll make it even more swanky says Alfred.

after being told by the police that a large section of town is a no man's land being torn apart by its residents

Those ungrateful plebes!

and shortly before being told that the criminals are following his lead and getting theatrical.

Yes, that little teaser of the Joker at the end certainly seemed like a serious plot point and not at all like a lame attempt to set up the sequel.

Forget the historical framework

Umm, OK.

there is a gigantic, non-subtle informatation dump at the end of the movie that says "Batman is messing up things almost as much as he is fixing them" which makes your argument ill-informed and completely at odds with the facts displayed within the framework of the movie.

Facts! Ill-informed? I respect the fact that most people might interpret the movie in a different way than I did but I don't see where "facts" enter into it. We saw the same movie and we simply got different things out of it. I guess if I'm going to be accused of being ill-informed, the Batman Begins plot is as good a field as any to plead ignorance.

Well, without Batman this would've happened to the city, no? So he's still supposed to be the hero of the day. And the final exchange of words between Gordon and Batman ("I never said thank you." "And you never have to.") certainly frames him as a hero. He's not a clean-cut hero like Superman, rather than a flawed one. He starts out misguided but he faces his "hero test" while fighting the "true" vigilantes of the League of Shadows. If you're claiming that Batman in the end was still presented as morally corrupt character who isn't the hero of the story at all (a tragic hero, maybe, but hero nevertheless), I guess we were watching a different film. Remember, this is not Taxi Driver, this is the film that's supposed to start a whole new Batman franchise.

As I said, the problem with the film wasn't that Batman fought the criminals, but the fact that it took the problematics of vigilantism seriously, through the comments made by Alfred and Rachel, but in the end still shyed away from the issue. Batman was supposed to have been better than the League of Shadows because he didn't kill the criminals, but yet at the final countdown he was directly responsible for Ducard's death, and did nothing to save him. So, as I said, he has blood in his hands. From what I know about Batman comics, in them he never kills or lets someone die intentionally.

I do realize that the problem of vigilantism is ingrained at the very heart of the character; it's not just this movie that faces that problem (Dark Knight Returns is a much more glaring example of the same). This is why I've never much liked Batman in the first place. Other superhero stories, such as Superman or the X-Men, can more easily sidestep vigilantism by making their heroes fight against aliens or the prejudice of mankind. But Batman's modus operandi has always been the fight against criminals, the "disease" of crime. When he fights against vampires or the Joker, I can deal with that, because that is clearly fantasy, escapism. Batman Returns evaded the issue of vigilantism by telling a modern fairy tale and Batman Forever by not taking Batman too seriously. You can do all sorts of stuff with Batman, and I guess that's the reason for his longevity, even though his original "heroism" is rather out-of-date. But Batman Begins expects the viewer to both evaluate Batman's morality and ultimately accept him as the hero, and for me that doesn't simply work.

YES

tuomas, you're too fixated on 'fascism/viliganteism' -- they aren't the same thing, and the point is there is no rule of law in gotham. things are fucked. a straightforward anti-vigilante position is insufficient to the problem. you assume society is a stable kinda place and so batman's behaviour is irrational.

"If you take these stories on a more realistic level, you have to start thinking about the implications of the "good" guy beating up the "bad" guys in a way that could easily get them paralyzed or killed."

um... the implication is the good guys win, there. if you don't believe in good and evil, why are you throwing fascism and vigilantism as bad things? there's no moral commitment in whatyou're saying, no recognition of how fucked things can get, how fucked things are.

"Basically the point of view of the film is that yeah, Batman may break a few eggs when he goes on his vigilante rampages but hey, at least he's not trying to bring down the whole society!"

batman is confronting the problem of a lawless world. the film is complex and clearly does not endorse what batman does. but at the same time the film acknowledges that something needs to be done.

The movie doesn't say that there's no rule of law in Gotham; Falcone still gets arrested and charged. There are poor neigbourhoods, corrupt cops and thriving criminals in the film, but that's the case in the real world as well. Would you support real-world vigilantism? Also, the other problem with Batman's vigilantism besides taking justice into your own hands is that it addresses merely the symptom, not the cause. Why doesn't Bruce Wayne use his wealth to alleviate poverty and disempowered? I think he does so in the comics.

um... the implication is the good guys win, there. if you don't believe in good and evil, why are you throwing fascism and vigilantism as bad things? there's no moral commitment in whatyou're saying, no recognition of how fucked things can get, how fucked things are.

So it doesn't matter if someone gets permanently injured or killed, as long as the "good" guy wins? I don't believe in absolute good or evil, but I do believe in people's right to their lives and their bodily integrity, which cannot be violated except in extereme circumstances. So that is why, among other things, I condemn fascism. The problem with vigilantism is that a vigilante thinks he has the right to fight against "evil" and punish the "evil-doers" in the society, but the society hasn't given it's approval for him to do so. Without societal control, he has only his own morality to set him the limits, and the morality of such a person is already doubtful. Who's to say he won't flip out and start to mug litterers or kill demonstrators? Cops at least are, in principle, bound by rules, and selected out and trained so that they won't
break those rules.

"I don't believe in absolute good or evil, but I do believe in people's right to their lives and their bodily integrity, which cannot be violated except in extereme circumstances."

well, here we have some extreme circumstances.

batman grapples with this, it doesn't say 'vigilantes a-ok'

The film's stance on vigilantism is slippery, but in the end it does say "vigilantism's okay" by making the vigilante the hero. Batman clearly doesn't play by the book: he let's Ducard die, and says so himself, even though he could've saved him.

and they fail. hence: batman.

Also, nowhere in the film is it said that Batman enters the stage only because the police failed. Clearly there are deeper roots to his beliefs and his vigilantism.

It'd be a pretty short film though. I'm not being entirely facetious here, the rules of society have less of a hold in Batman's world than narrative rules. The police are corrupt and the criminals are a cowardly and superstitious lot because this is the background against which the character exists: you could no more clean up Gotham than you could turn off gravity in Metropolis (in fact, it'd be a lot harder).

which 'rules'? again, your idea of gotham is weirdly rosy. it's not a stable soceity with basically ok but sometimes erring cops. the depression (like the 30s depression) isn't something that just precedes a new boom. it might be irreversible. this is how people thought in the '30s anyway.

it's just kind of off-base to talk about 'vigilanteism' as this absolute wrong in the context of gotham, where to some extent the moral order has broken down. you seem to have no range of attutudes to the film: either it 'approves' vigilantes' or it 'condemns' them. it's really boy-scoutish. you don't end the film liking everything about batman, but can you not see that what he did was basically necessary?

He couldn't really have puit this into significant effect until he bought back the company, which will give him a more legitimate public standing to do so, I reckon. "The billionaire buffoon who cares."

That situation perhaps applies in some of the comics, but the movie doesn't give enough information to interpret the situation so. It's exactly because the movie aims for realism that you feel compelled to judge it by real world rules, and in real life, no matter how corrupt a city, few would suggest vigilantism as the answer. (Of course, there are still some who do: take the death patrols in Brazil, for example.)

And yet they didnt see a wave of vigilantism back then, did they?

Yes, I guess it was necessary for him to beat stop the League of Shadows' evil plot - that's the fantasy part of the film, and I have no problem with that. But it's the idea of Batman, the idea of a vigilante, that I find disturbing, and that is something the film takes very seriously. As I said, the film's stance on this very slippery: it sorta condemns Batman, but in the end really doesn't.

batman is a (basically) *good* vigilante, though. he only punishes the bad. (aren't the death squads really state forces anyway?)

I'll say it one more time: this isn't Taxi Driver, this the first episode of a new Batman series, and the film certainly isn't bold enough to condemn Batman's actions and make him an anti-hero like Travis Bickle.

(x-post)

Ah, but the problem with vigilantes is exactly that: they have only their own morality to make the judgement on who's "bad", and therefore "worthy" of the punishment. No doubt the people in the death squads think they're doing something good too.

thinking about it, batman begins is far more critical of its protag than taxi driver.

On a surface level, maybe (in that it has a couple of critical speeches pointed at Batman), but Taxi Driver certainly doesn't claim Travis Bickle is a hero, and I hope it's viewers don't think so either. That isn't the case with Batman Begins.

I think I do, but the issue we're debating here is whether Batman Begins is a tragedy, or a "hero story". Or to be more correct, it's both, but I think it emphasizes the hero aspect too much, whereas others might disagree.

"I'll take 'Things That A More Aware/Intuitive Person Wouldn't Say To An African-American' for $800, Alex." Jesus Christ.

Why don't you tell everybody what the fuck you gotta say?

Fuck tha police
Comin straight from the underground
Young nigga got it bad cuz I'm brown
And not the other color so police think
They have the authority to kill a minority

Fuck that shit, cuz I ain't tha one
For a punk muthafucka with a badge and a gun
To be beatin on, and throwin in jail
We could go toe to toe in the middle of a cell

Fuckin with me cuz I'm a teenager
With a little bit of gold and a pager
Searchin my car, lookin for the product
Thinkin every nigga is sellin narcotics

You'd rather see me in the pen
Then me and Lorenzo rollin in the Benzo
Beat tha police outta shape
And when I'm finished, bring the yellow tape
To tape off the scene of the slaughter
Still can't swallow bread and water

I don't know if they fags or what
Search a nigga down and grabbin his nuts
And on the other hand, without a gun they can't get none
But don't let it be a black and a white one
Cuz they slam ya down to the street top
Black police showin out for the white cop

Ice Cube will swarm
On any muthafucka in a blue uniform
Just cuz I'm from the CPT, punk police are afraid of me
A young nigga on a warpath
And when I'm finished, it's gonna be a bloodbath
Of cops, dyin in LA
Yo Dre, I got somethin to say

Fuck the police (4X)

M. C. Ren, will you please give your testimony to the jury about this fucked up incident.>

Fuck tha police and Ren said it with authority
because the niggaz on the street is a majority.
A gang, is with whoever I'm stepping
and the motherfuckin' weapon
is kept in a stash box, for the so-called law
wishin' Ren was a nigga that they never saw

Lights start flashin behind me
But they're scared of a nigga so they mace me to blind me
But that shit don't work, I just laugh
Because it gives em a hint not to step in my path

To the police I'm sayin fuck you punk
Readin my rights and shit, it's all junk
Pullin out a silly club, so you stand
With a fake assed badge and a gun in your hand

But take off the gun so you can see what's up
And we'll go at it punk, I'ma fuck you up

Make ya think I'm a kick your ass
But drop your gat, and Ren's gonna blast
I'm sneaky as fuck when it comes to crime
But I'm a smoke em now, and not next time

Smoke any muthafucka that sweats me
Or any assho that threatens me
I'm a sniper with a hell of a scope
Takin out a cop or two, they can't cope with me

The muthafuckin villian that's mad
With potential to get bad as fuck
So I'm a turn it around
Put in my clip, yo, and this is the sound
Ya, somethin like that, but it all depends on the size of the gat

Takin out a police would make my day
But a nigga like Ren don't give a fuck to say

Fuck the police (4X)

Police, open now. We have a warrant for Eazy-E's arrest.
Get down and put your hands up where I can see em.
Just shut the fuck up and get your muthafuckin ass on the floor.
[huh?]>

and tell the jury how you feel abou this bullshit.>

I'm tired of the muthafuckin jackin
Sweatin my gang while I'm chillin in the shackin
Shining tha light in my face, and for what
Maybe it's because I kick so much butt

I kick ass, or maybe cuz I blast
On a stupid assed nigga when I'm playin with the trigga
Of any Uzi or an AK
Cuz the police always got somethin stupid to say

They put up my picture with silence
Cuz my identity by itself causes violence
The E with the criminal behavior
Yeah, I'm a gansta, but still I got flavor

Without a gun and a badge, what do ya got?
A sucka in a uniform waitin to get shot,
By me, or another nigga.
and with a gat it don't matter if he's smarter or bigger
[MC Ren: Sidle him, kid, he's from the old school, fool]

And as you all know, E's here to rule
Whenever I'm rollin, keep lookin in the mirror
And there's no cue, yo, so I can hear a
Dumb muthafucka with a gun

And if I'm rollin off the 8, he'll be tha one
That I take out, and then get away
And while I'm drivin off laughin
This is what I'll say

Fuck the police (4X)

The jury has found you guilty of bein a redneck,
whitebread, chickenshit muthafucka.
Wait, that's a lie. That's a goddamn lie.
I want justice! I want justice!
Fuck you, you black muthafucka!>

Fuck the police (3X)

Dan, sometimes I hate your way of arguing. Of course I can watch morally complex films and understand them, but if I feel a film presents a morally condemnable character as the hero, don't I have the right to criticize it? There are lots of films where morally dubious protagonists are presented as just human beings, not heroes. And similarly, there are lots of fantasy films where good fights against evil, and that's okay too because you aren't suppose to take them that seriously.

What A Time to Kill is saying that it was ok for the Samuel Jackson character to shoot those two guy for revenge. And in my opinion it's never, never ok to kill another person, unless it's self-defence. Obviously the movie is saying that he had a just cause, and it does deal with issues like racism in a compelling way, but it's conclusion was so clearly against my basic values that I have no choice but say it's irredeemable. I'm sorry if that offends you, Dan, that wasn't my intention.

dan totally otm. you seem unable of handling any complexity whatever. your conception of movies is fucked-up anyway: if SLJ wins his case, therefore the film *totally absolves him*? it's cop-think. i don't think this squeaky-clean pacifism is up to the challenges of the real world, in which the rules are set by the winners (in this case, racists) and the people charged with upholding them corrupt.

Repeat: Finland, Finland, Finland.
The country where I quite want to be,
Your mountains so lofty,
Your treetops so tall.
Finland, Finland, Finland,
Finland has it all.

Fade: Finland has it all...

what if during his revenge, the kkk guys had got the upper hand and killed jackson. would that be ok in your book?

Remember that the League of Shadows is fully entrenched in the GCPD (or GPD, as they're seen in the film). Also, Ra's Al Ghul had already made intimations that he may indeed be immortal (as the character is in the comics), and you'll notice that he can be seen assuming some sort of mediation stance as the train goes down.

Yes, that little teaser of the Joker at the end certainly seemed like a serious plot point and not at all like a lame attempt to set up the sequel.
Are you shitting me? Gordon's bit about escalation quite pointed says, "You have fucked up the natural order, Batman."