Hilary Duff: Joy for pre-teens, not just Humbert Humbert

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(One solution would be to delve into teenpop more to see if I do like more than the few token songs that have captured my interest so far.)

you know you want to

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:00 (sixteen years ago) link

Start with Aly and AJ's new one, "Potential Break Up Song." It's fun!

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:01 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah abby commanded me to check that one out (i have never heard aly & aj ever!)

― lex pretend, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:03 (sixteen years ago) link

OK I realize this means admitting that i look at the 'eye candy' section of xxl but this comment both epitomizes my apprehension about the majority of internet rap discussion + was amusing:

#
G'dep Says:

February 26th, 2007 at 6:23 pm

girl has beauty brains and a good taste in music stillmatic! , my kind of girl coz after some wild sex we can talk about rewind. nah mean

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:03 (sixteen years ago) link

who in 2007 is neglecting rap discussion on ilm to focus on blogs?

-- and what, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:59 AM

I meant more the current state of rap discussion on ILM is kind of a result of that 04-05 period when dudes like you and me and deej and dk started blogs and kinda stopped starting threads or writing at length on ILM, which kinda continued even after some of us stopped blogging.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:04 (sixteen years ago) link

or actually, the straight answer to that question is that I personally write about rap way more on blogs than on ILM these days.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:05 (sixteen years ago) link

I'd be curious to know why other posters think that teenpop appeals to them personally.

During Maura Johnston's freestyle panel at EMP Matos asked me how we in South Florida regarded the genre. "It was OUR MUSIC," I said, ineptly, which is to say: I don't think in terms of genres. I like artists and songs. Regarding teenpop, I'll turn on the radio, hear Ashee Simpson or Kelly Clarkson, and say, "Hey, this sounds pretty good" and either download it or forget about it – as I'd do with any other artist.

I also told Maura and Matos that the sometimes hysterical nature of adolescent experience dovetailed with the scenarios drawn by Stevie B, Company B, and "Diamond Girl." As I age and life gets duller, the memorable experiences are actually MORE melodramatic in context, so "Girlfriend," "Wake Up," and "Since U Been Gone" really do become the soundtrack to my life. Call it hyperrealism. Jody Rosen was right when he posited in his Slate essay last week that the "defining feature of post-Lavigne teenpop is its adult pretensions," but I'd also remark that "the defining feature of adulthood is pretension." Thirtysomethings are pretty smug, generally, and so are the artists we tend to admire; thus, there's something to be said about teens striving for adulthood using the language and manners of eighteen-year-olds.

― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:05 (sixteen years ago) link

A reason I like teenpop - which seems to be quite opposed to the way it's discussed on the thread, and may be part of why I don't post there much - is that the manufacture of it is like high-stakes music criticism. It seems to be so much about combining and reviving elements of the past - ideas, images, whole sounds - which is pretty similar to what critics do, except the people producing teenpop have a lot of money at stake and it's fascinating to see what works and what doesn't. So Girls Aloud suddenly doing a Stray-Cat style rockabilly-skiffle track, and it becoming one of their best loved songs, is really interesting! There's a "what's next? what's the next thing to draw on?" element to it.

This way of enjoying it has next to nothing to do with real teenagers or even the performers whose name goes on the tracks - it's quite a cold approach. But my own reaction to the tracks themselves doesn't often go much beyond "Yeah! Catchy!" or "Wow, beautiful", or whatever. It is a surface pleasure for me in a way it's not for Frank or dabug or Poptext.

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:06 (sixteen years ago) link

That should be "whole songs" not "whole sounds".

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:07 (sixteen years ago) link

well al maybe you should be starting threads here instead of posting 800 word comments on breihans weekly diplo interview or whatever

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:11 (sixteen years ago) link

& obviously teenpop isn't the only genre where this happens! But it's the one where I like the resulting sounds most.

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:11 (sixteen years ago) link

As I age and life gets duller

It does?

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:13 (sixteen years ago) link

i tried to start a big mike thread a week or two ago and it got like three posts :-(

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:13 (sixteen years ago) link

― da croupier, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:15 (sixteen years ago) link

x-post to and what: oh great, we're going to turn this thread into another forum for your repetitive 'zings'.

to review, I said I wished the R&B thread was more active, you said "what about the rap thread", I said I'm not gonna complain about it because I'm personally guilty of not saying much of substance on that thread because I have other outlets right now, and then you tried to son me with a hollertronix reference. omg stfu etc.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:17 (sixteen years ago) link

you know you want to

-- lex pretend, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:00 AM (15 minutes ago)

You say this all coy, but I actually do want to.

Start with Aly and AJ's new one, "Potential Break Up Song." It's fun!

-- dabug, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 11:01 AM (14 minutes ago)

Yeah, I've been meaning to.

The real way to get me to listen to more teenpop, though, would be for Swygart to start putting it up on the Stylus Singles Jukebox more often. That's how I heard "First" and "Rush," which I've never actually encountered anywhere else (i.e., not on the radio), except I once sang the former in a karaoke bar in Minneapolis last year.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:19 (sixteen years ago) link

Like Eppy, I'm into teenpop for the music. Right now it seems that the major pop songwriters are working in the genre, in fact, it seems like the only genre where you're getting a really focussed team-produced 'sound' that happens to be the one I love: the pop-rock with hooks and tight structures and cheerleader hand-claps etc. Maybe it was always that way genre-wise with songwriting squads, but I was too young to pay attention. I listen to way more material that isn't teenpop (right now I'm repeat-playing Peter Bjorn & John, the Blow, Miranda Lambert and Camera Obscura) but the teenpop stuff is where I get my concentrated pop fix and can find producers doing new and innovative stuff every cycle. Like, hearing 'potential break-up song' was interesting in a way that 'young folks' wasn't because it engaged me in a 'what are the influences/direction/consequences of this branding shift?' way as well as surface appreciation.

― Poptext, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:20 (sixteen years ago) link

I doubt the snap thread will ever be "a place where we can try out ideas (about a wide range of music) without an accusatory or arms-crossed skeptical or uncomfortable tone mucking up the flow of conversation or personally offending anyone."

Can't tell if I'm being mocked here (don't read the snap thread either). Should I assume yes? If so, why?

Anyway here's some of Frank's thougtful negative commentary on Hilary Duff's new album on the teenpop thread; this is pretty typical of his (and others') posts there (since the only thing posted from the thread itself so far has been that MySpace list):

Lex, I'd love it if you'd say more about the Hilary, since I'm just having a lot of trouble feeling it. ("Danger," my second favorite song on it, is a Paris sound-alike that isn't as good as Paris would do it, and even so it would only be the 10th best thing on the Paris album.) There's certainly stuff I'm liking, and maybe if you told me the process of how it grew on you it would grow on me two. Hilary doesn't have a high-impact voice, and John Shanks back on "Come Clean" and "Fly" knew how to use her slightness for enormous feeling (as if the feeling were in the melody and the voice just let it come through in a beautiful sketch - I still can't figure out how he made it work), while Kara DioGuardi on Dignity seems to be working a middle ground that doesn't always work. (Strangely, I prefer DioGuardi's Tisdale tune; strange, given that Tisdale's voice gives even less to a song than Duff's does.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:25 (sixteen years ago) link

(or if the joke's on the ability for anyone to have such a conversation, why? I guess I just don't get what you're getting at.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:26 (sixteen years ago) link

Can't tell if I'm being mocked here (don't read the snap thread either). Should I assume yes? If so, why?

I'm not mocking you, don't worry.

― da croupier, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:27 (sixteen years ago) link

al i wasnt tryna zing you with a hollertronix ref i just saw longer posts on toms diplo interview than youve made on a rap thread in years

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:27 (sixteen years ago) link

a zing would be to complain about your 4 paragraph reviews of dane cook cds

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:28 (sixteen years ago) link

Poptext, have you heard Lucky Soul yet? Just heard them over the weekend and I like their 60ish girl groupish pop throwbacks without it seeming too forced/fetishistic. No idea how big they are in the UK, never heard of them in the US.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:30 (sixteen years ago) link

(Maybe I'm being paranoid, da croupier, wouldn't be the first time. Just wondering what you're getting at by quoting that bit twice.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:30 (sixteen years ago) link

he's talking about ppl who contribute to the snap thread

― deej, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:37 (sixteen years ago) link

(Oh, thanks.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Thanks dabug, but honestly, this whole retro girl group thing bemuses me a little. I can enjoy it, sure, but none of them seem to do for me what 'Leader of the Pack' or the original stuff ever did, and I'm trying to figure out why - is it the songwriting, the new-indieish hues or the thinner sound, etc?

Anyway, while we're tipping, The Blow esp 'Hey Boy' are rather great. I'm seeing them support Electrelane tonight in Cambridge MA (oh yeah, I'm over here for the summer).

― Poptext, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:39 (sixteen years ago) link

Correcting myself (not that anyone was replying to me): "performers whose name goes on the tracks" is a wretched phrase. What I'm meaning is that I'm not hugely bothered as to who produces or writes songs in teenpop, or even who performs them, more in each new song as a gambit in a wider conversation with the market.

(So the airplay and sales figures should be the most interesting part of Teenpop 2007 for me, I suppose)

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

I dislike the sound a lot too (probably for similar reasons -- also because I believe there are modern girl groups, making music in similar models but with a bit more co-authorship, e.g. the Veronicas, who aren't getting their due). I was surprised to like this group. (I think I called the last thing like this I heard "fetishistic and sterile." Something for Singles Jukebox, don't remember who it was, Marit Bergman I think?)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:42 (sixteen years ago) link

Tom, one thing I like about the teenpop thread is how it explores authorship...Frank trying to figure out "who I'm falling in love with" re: Ashlee, what I just said above about the girl group thing, etc.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

(Haha, this is starting to sound like an infomercial.)

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:43 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah that Frank quote is pretty good, no Ashlee-Dylan crazy juice in that post and I give him credit for dealing with the fact that "Hilary doesn't have a high-impact voice" and that some songs use it better than others, which is the kind of fairly obvious truth that sometimes folks like The Lex seem very stubborn not to acknowledge.

ethan, referring to a 200-word comment as 800 words comment made me kind of assume that you were exaggerating things for zing effect.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:44 (sixteen years ago) link

The Blow's great, although I bailed on them last night because I was exhausted. Are you seeing them in a small place? She's a great performer.

― Eppy, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:46 (sixteen years ago) link

I think it's great that it explores authorship - just the kind of thing an evangelical teenpop thread ought to be doing, and a way into some fascinating analysis. But it doesn't interest *me* that much as something to do - fundamentally I am VERY LAZY and tend not to research authorship. And I have a bad memory for names.

― Groke, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Paradise in Boston? Not been to that venue yet, only got into town a couple fo weeks ago.

― Poptext, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:49 (sixteen years ago) link

so basically youre saying the rap threads arent good anymore because you dont post as much

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:55 (sixteen years ago) link

it's hard for other threads to be more like teenpop when teenpop requires that much more involvement for it to even exist.

uhh that sounds pointier than i meant it to, no offence

i'm kind of disillusioned with the vast majority of rap discussion anyway. reading xxl comments will do that to you

yeah see, snap thread's just more like the 2nd person watercooler for the obvious ubiqitous 9-5 work of rap listening. it's not like yr gonna see something new on there with 'omg omg wow' cos everyone's pretty much heard everything already. if it happens to come up then it'll get discussed but it's not the regulars who feel the need to start it. meanwhile the world keeps spinning.

the other thing a successful rolling thread (well, and whole board) requires is a sense of um, community. failing that, a koganesque moderator (whether he actually contributes or not, but he's still the reference point.) if youre not really bothered what ilm, or even just the particular thread people think anyway then what's the impetus. i know i can sympathize with that.

― r|t|c, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:57 (sixteen years ago) link

Non-high impact doesn't = not emotionally resonant, though. See: Cassie, Paris Hilton, uh...Carole King?

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 16:57 (sixteen years ago) link

so basically youre saying the rap threads arent good anymore because you dont post as much

-- and what, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 12:55 PM

no, i'm saying i'm not gonna complain about the quality of the rap threads because i enjoy the in-jokey half-assed vibe they have these days. you're the one who brought it up.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Koganesque looms large over the teenpop thread (and maybe over this one too) but the guy himself isn't a requirement for anything (see: no actual Kogan on this thread)...he's interested in a mode of thought and analysis, and as long as this is thought and carried through (as lots of people on this thread, teenpop posters and non-, are doing) it doesn't really matter what you're talking about. He's a ref. point here, but he doesn't need to be; his way of digging into his own and other people's ideas does need to be. Sometimes people just need to be stirred or cajoled or shoved into discussion in the right ways.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:02 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah yeah yeah i guess im just jealous of all this intense speculation & analysis of the teenpop thread and rolling snap gets like a couple 5 word posts a week now

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:11 (sixteen years ago) link

Koganesque looms large over the teenpop thread (and maybe over this one too) but the guy himself isn't a requirement for anything (see: no actual Kogan on this thread)...he's interested in a mode of thought and analysis, and as long as this is thought and carried through (as lots of people on this thread, teenpop posters and non-, are doing) it doesn't really matter what you're talking about. He's a ref. point here, but he doesn't need to be; his way of digging into his own and other people's ideas does need to be. Sometimes people just need to be stirred or cajoled or shoved into discussion in the right ways.

this is how the scientologists speak of L. Ron

― Just got offed, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:12 (sixteen years ago) link

hahaha, i was totally gonna post YOU ARE ALL JUST JEALOUS! yesterday, but i knew everyone would just deny it. now the truth is setting everyone free.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:13 (sixteen years ago) link

frank is a total guru! he has a crazy brain. people are attracted to crazy brains. i know i am.

― scott seward, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:14 (sixteen years ago) link

well combined with the fact that unlike everybody else i think teenpop is a really worthless unlistenable genre

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:14 (sixteen years ago) link

except that lillix joint and come clean

― and what, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Sometimes people just need to be stirred or cajoled or shoved into discussion in the right ways.

Ugh, this pedanticism bugs me.

― Tim Ellison, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Ethan, somewhere way upthread Chuck expressed some unhappiness with the snap thread.

― curmudgeon, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:18 (sixteen years ago) link

Well, I don't think it was pedantic at all, having been stirred and cajoled into the discussion myself.

― dabug, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:22 (sixteen years ago) link

Non-high impact doesn't = not emotionally resonant, though. See: Cassie, Paris Hilton, uh...Carole King?

-- dabug, Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:57 PM (30 minutes ago)

that's you saying paris hilton = emotionally resonant, isn't it? yikes.

― That one guy that quit, Wednesday, 16 May 2007 17:29 (sixteen years ago) link

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