Led Zeppelin: Classic Or Dud?

maybe it was all the goat sacrifices

new borad description please

I feel like Plant's work with Krauss has been both musically laudable and, to an extent, a good PR move. Associating himself with American roots music both underscores the folkie/trad elements of Led Zep, AND distances him from the worst sweaty bombastic excesses of his old band.

My understanding was that the musical partnership with Krauss was also a romantic partnership not a PR move

I think Plant's had a varied and musically curious solo career, I can't imagine he ever thinks like "this is going to distance myself from sweaty bombast" he's just doing what he's into

I really love the production by T Bone Burnett on Raising Sand. Also his production on Gregg Allman’s album Low Country Blues. It’s very elegant for a blues/americana sound but it never sounds too clean or overproduced.

I love how Plant sings on Raising Sand. It's relaxed, not trying to squeeze any lemons, like he's at peace with no longer hitting the high notes. Reminds me of Roy Orbison.

Yeah, no high notes for him, that Roy Orbison.

I got to see the Plant/Krauss tour, was pretty classy.

uh Plant / Krauss was a romantic thing too? Couldn't he be her dad?

uh Plant / Krauss was a romantic thing too? Couldn't he be her dad?

Not a romance, just a singing partnership. He was living with Patty Griffin - another folk/Americana singer-songwriter - for several years, though.

Well, my friend who sat in a large group with Kraus and Plant at SWSW when they were canoodling would say otherwise

Got no time for spreadin' roots.

You need canoodlin', Baby I'm not faloodilin'

You can take the boy out of Led Zeppelin but...

https://lastfm.freetls.fastly.net/i/u/770x0/10d6a9ec8f0a4f3ebd9fcb71b0504e74.jpg

John Paul Jones has also taken to the americana/roots music scene. There's a great video of him playing mandolin on Going To California with Gillian Welch & Dave Rawlings.

You need canoodlin', Baby I'm not faloodilin'

― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain)

think you mean "fadoodlin'"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ImYKSTJsf-Q

sad to have missed JPJ play solo and duo sets at big ears

You need canoodlin', Baby I'm not faloodilin'

― "...And the Gods Socially Distanced" (C. Grisso/McCain), Monday, July 20, 2020 2:03 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lmao...felt like I had to use the word which I'm fairly certain has never been used outside of old gossip columns

Was driving around when "Your Time is Gonna Come" came on. What an impeccably produced, written and arranged song. It's incredible to me that anyone at the time, critics or otherwise, didn't catch that there was something special about this band. I'm sure some were caught up in the authentic bloooooze bullshit, but anyone missing that Zep was on another level even with the first album is like Xgau dismissing Hendrix as an uncle Tom, just fucking stupid.

https://youtu.be/LaMfgPMA8f0

the first album is so fucking good

Led Zeppelin is so good that even Dread Zeppelin is good.

Xgau dismissing Hendrix as an uncle Tom

Is this true?

If so..jfc

https://www.robertchristgau.com/xg/music/monterey-69.php

His retrospective preface makes it even worse.

Don't believe me, believe Sam Silver of The East Village Other: "Jimi did a beautiful Spade routine."

jesus

Cut him slack, he couldn't have known any better in *checks notes* 2002.

Robert Christgau, a worthless tin-eared piece of shit since 1967.

Good god, what a moron.

I certainly think "psychedelic Uncle Tom" is more accurate than "just another Uncle Tom."

Imagine, as they say, writing this down.

Ugh at psychedelic uncle tom

well that's really gross.

lol that it was 'psychedelic' that the lawyers objected to tho

someone needs to kill him with their big fucking dick

Was driving around when "Your Time is Gonna Come" came on. What an impeccably produced, written and arranged song. It's incredible to me that anyone at the time, critics or otherwise, didn't catch that there was something special about this band. I'm sure some were caught up in the authentic bloooooze bullshit, but anyone missing that Zep was on another level even with the first album is like Xgau dismissing Hendrix as an uncle Tom, just fucking stupid.

Obv not defending Christgau's race-related comments but tbf, I do think that the critics, even Mendelsohn, were catching that there was something special about these artists - they just didn't like it and found it vulgar, crass, 'self-indulgent', etc. Even Mendelsohn recognized Page's virtuosity, although he hated what he did with it, and Bangs did observe that Zep's deal would ensure them lasting stardom, although "it doesn’t challenge anybody’s intelligence or sensibilities, relying instead on a pat visceral impact".

Interesting thought experiment to imagine yourself seeing these guys as new artists, with no legend or canonicity built up around them, where they're big with the kids and you're a mid-20s writer with a BA and a mission to critique pop music as a serious artform.

Yeah, but the notion of Bangs dismissing the band as "little more than pat visceral impact" is just it. There was *plenty* of pat visceral impact music of the era (and beyond), but this ain't it (obv.). The notion that anyone, even Bangs, would review Led Zep III and spend most of the piece backhandedly characterizing the album as more of the same- "my main impression was the consistent anonymity of most of the songs" - is just nuts. And true to form, the review does scan as largely bullshit, given all the good things he says about the album between the ad hominems. But I suppose that's kind of par for the course for Bangs.

(For anyone curious: https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-album-reviews/led-zeppelin-iii-112284/)

Yeah, even with my 1970 thought experiment, it's a little hard to imagine someone hearing Led Zeppelin as "a thunderous, near-undifferentiated tidal wave of sound". Even my parents could probably tell the difference between "Immigrant Song" and "Tangerine".

or "Friends"

what did they think of bands like Blue Cheer, Vanilla Fudge, et al

Bangs on "Friends:"

"Unfortunately, precious little of Z III‘s remaining hysteria is as useful or as effectively melodramatic. “Friends” has a fine bitter acoustic lead, but gives itself over almost entirely to monotonously shrill Plant breast-beatings. Rob, give a listen to Iggy Stooge."

LOL

Lester Bangs is a fucking idiot

I guess they really chose "the good stuff" when they compiled his first book, huh?

it's a little hard to imagine someone hearing Led Zeppelin as "a thunderous, near-undifferentiated tidal wave of sound".

I think it's a failure of reading comprehension to miss the fact that Bangs wasn't describing III as "a thunderous, near-undifferentiated tidal wave of sound" but was using this phrase - reported speech supposedly from a (doubtless ventriloquised) friend, describing their live show - to build up a boogeyman of their excess, which Bangs' review sought to confirm or deny. Like, the full quote reads thusly:

I’ve never made a Zep show, but friends (most of them the type, admittedly, who will listen- to anything so long’s it’s loud and they’re destroyed) describe a thunderous, near-undifferentiated tidal wave of sound that doesn’t engross but envelops to snuff any possible distraction.

I mean, it's not a glowing review, but is he really slating Zeppelin? He seems to love them in the same way he loves the bloody-minded garage stuff he praises in Psychotic Reactions:

What’s great about it, though, the Zep’s special genius, is that the whole effect is so utterly two-dimensional and unreal. You could play it, as I did, while watching a pagan priestess performing the ritual dance of Ka before the flaming sacrificial altar in Fire Maidens of Outer Space with the TV sound turned off. And believe me, the Zep made my blood throb to those jungle rhythms even more frenziedly.

I mean, he ends the review praising That's The Way, and even says he likes a lot of the acoustic stuff. It's not a pan! But I love Bangs and I love III and I have no need or expectation for him to love III because ultimately Zep aren't arcane or occult enough for him - he wants bombast cranked up to b-movie weirdness, he was never going to fit in on Zeppelin's private plane, that was never where his interest lay.

Also, this is dead-on:

“Since I’ve Been Loving You” represents the obligatory slow and lethally dull seven-minute blues jam

notm

which Bangs' review sought to confirm or deny.

Yes, I left out that context, true. So, then, did the review deny it? He precedes his paraphrase of his friends (who, unlike him, did go to see Zep as they "are the type who will listen- to anything so long’s it’s loud and they’re destroyed") with this:

The Zep, of all bands surviving, are today — their music is as ephemeral as Marvel comix, and as vivid as an old Technicolor cartoon. It doesn’t challenge anybody’s intelligence or sensibilities, relying instead on a pat visceral impact that will insure absolute stardom for many moons to come. Their albums refine the crude public tools of all dull white blues bands into something awesome in its very insensitive grossness,

which doesn't suggest that he finds much subtlety or nuance in their music. He is not saying they are worthless - although it's a stretch to say he loves them; he has a "love-hate relationship' with them - but seems to say that insofar as they succeed, it is on the level of sheer "pat visceral impact" and "insensitive grossness", which for those of us who DO hear subtlety and nuance there, is the questionable part.

He then goes on to review the album at hand:

Their third album deviates little from the track laid by the first two, even though they go acoustic on several numbers. Most of the acoustic stuff sounds like standard Zep graded down decibelwise.... In fact, when I first heard the album my main impression was the consistent anonymity of most of the songs

which, again, does not indicate to me that he sees much differentiation in the music. More than the fact that he is critical, which I had actually been defending if you read upthread, nor the writing style, which is good, I think it is this that is striking us as bizarre with regards to an album that features so much exploration of English folk music, as well as a heavy rocker like "Immigrant Song"; the blues jam "Since I've Been Loving You" that you mentioned; "Friends", with a quasi-Bollywood-esque string section. How does someone hear "Gallows Pole" or "Tangerine" as just a "grading down decibelwise" of "standard Zep" (idk - something like "Heartbreaker", maybe)?

The quote about the music making his blood throb while watching Fire Maidens of Outer Space was specifically about "Immigrant Song", which he singled out as the song that comes closest to standing out from the anonymity with "special outrageousness" (one of the songs that comes closest to working on the level of sheer visceral impact). He immediately follows it by saying: "Unfortunately, precious little of Z III‘s remaining hysteria is as useful or as effectively melodramatic. "

He does praise "That's the Way" but emphasizes that it's "the first song they’ve ever done that has truly moved [ him ]." The closest he comes to saying he likes the other acoustic stuff (after dismissing a couple of songs as generic to the point of being hard to "even hear" for a non-fan and slating "Since I've Been Loving You") is:

Much of the rest, after a couple of listenings to distinguish between songs, is not bad at all, because the disc Zeppelin are at least creative enough to apply an occasional pleasing fillip to their uninspiring material, and professional enough to keep all their recorded work relatively clean and clear

which is a bit backhanded and underlines again the generic, undifferentiated quality that he seems to hear in the band - he, as someone who reviews rock music for a living, needed a "couple of listenings to distinguish between songs). It is interesting, though, that despite these repeated suggestions, Bangs's own descriptions do make the songs sound pretty distinct from each other, but idk if there's enough there for me to read that as intentional self-undercutting irony.

He's definitely not as unrelentingly negative as Mendelsohn.

yiftach
1 day ago

mr Zeppelin, can you please reply to this comment? you are my favorite singer of all time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=lQG_Zu_7td0&feature=emb_logo

by the way
which one's Led?