A new 30 Rock thread because I can't find the old one

How is it the same old shit?

"I feel like I have the soul of a Black man so I painted myself in blackface and strutted around with a pimp walk for Halloween and to fuck with a photographer" is decidedly NOT the same thing as "this ridiculous shit used to be played absolutely straight as legit entertainment, which is a massive indictment of the times and the foundation of shitty attitudes that are still prevalent today"

I think 30 Rock often took comedy tropes that are now seen as insensitive and worked them into the show using a writing hack, namely "no, see, we are criticizing this, it's social commentary". And maybe it is, but they still get to have it both ways, don't they? Yeah, Jenna cluelessly dressing up like a black man during a fight with Tracy is funny social commentary since everyone on the show is appalled, but you still get to see Jenna in blackface. I don't know if the former balances out the latter.

"get to"?

Yep, get to. Get to make that joke. Everything that implies.

To me, that joke implies that Jenna is a racist. What does it imply to you?

The desired reaction was pretty obviously not "omg, how edgy!". It was a humorous scenario, not in that blackface is funny, but because Jenna is such a colossal, narcissistic moron, that she's too dumb to realize how racially insensitive it is to appear in Blackface. Which is why Toofer shows up moments later, horrified, to tell her exactly this.

Jenna also confused Obama with Osama Bin Laden on Fox News, so this is fairly in character with her.

In other words, DJP otm

It implies that there's a history in American entertainment of white people wearing blackface to make the audience laugh, and once you decide you're going to do that on your TV show in 2008, it might be good to interrogate your own motivations, and ask yourself "is this joke really operating solely on the social commentary about this being crass and racist, or does part of me still think a white lady in blackface remains a hilarious visual that I want to put in my show?" And then ask yourself as a writer or showrunner if you can really answer that question honestly. You can't cancel out the valence of actually showing a white person doing blackface on the screen in a sitcom by making the joke that it's wrong.

The key difference is the audience is laughing at her not with her.

There were 4 different blackface gags in 30 rock,only 2 were jenna.

Tina Fey was also head writer on snl when jimmy fallon impersonated chris rock in blackface.

The Jimmy Fallon thing is inexcusable.

There were 4 different blackface gags in 30 rock,only 2 were jenna.

The Jon Hamm one is even more obviously critical imo.

The key difference is the audience is laughing at her not with her.

This isn't a good way to say this because back in the day, people were also laughing at the people in blackface because that's what White people thought Black people were like.

Jenna, as a character, is a horrible person. I'm not particularly offended by jokes built around horrible people doing horrible things that reflect horribly back on them; of the four blackface jokes in 30 Rock, which ones were value-neutral on the concept of blackface?

I'm very interested in what people on this thread think of Bamboozled

You don't know what the audience is laughing at, and if you're being honest with yourself, you know some proportion of the audience is in fact laughing with Jenna. But I'm thinking more about the writer honestly questioning their own motivations and unconscious biases. Of course Tina Fey doesn't affirmatively want to make racist jokes, but a lot of comedy tropes have through lines that are very racist/homophobic/antisemitic and if you make them today, even with some meta-commentary about it being wrong, you're also bringing along that history. If I were writing a sitcom and came up with sketch along these lines, yeah, I would as a white dude very much ask myself if there wasn't some part of me that wanted to "get to" make edgy jokes.

My conservative father watched this ep on air date. he didn't even laugh, but instead angrily asked "why is whiteface ok but Blackface isn't" moments later (at which point the Neanderthal children lectured him).

It plays well into Jenna's character of not caring who she offends or upsets as long as it benefits her, personally.

here's my ultimate hot take on this stuff: not sure what the difference is between this and, say, the joke that got shane gillis pre-fir3d from snl (the punchline in both is 'a character being racist'), would love to hear anyone's justification for supporting one and not the other... trying to establish imaginary lines like this is why ppl should not complain about 'offensive' comedy (i.e. there's always a context), HOWEVER in this instance i don't think anyone is actually complaining, it's just a woke lady using BLM for ego/publicity/to get out ahead of a story she would have less control over

speaking of Jon Hamm and blackface, are we going to have to spike a key episode of Mad Men as well?

i thought the problem with the gillis thing is that it didn't seem it was a bit/character but just him being a dick?

"This isn't a good way to say this because back in the day, people were also laughing at the people in blackface because that's what White people thought Black people were like."

Right, but isn't that "with"? In other words, the audience and the actor are laughing together at their portrayal of what black people are "like"? But yes I do feel like my summation was falling short either way.

The audience isn't meant to be entertained by Jenna for the reasons that the Jenna character wants/intends.

You don't know what the audience is laughing at, and if you're being honest with yourself, you know some proportion of the audience is in fact laughing with Jenna.

of all possible objections, "won't someone think of the dumbest fucking people on earth" is maybe one of the less effective ones

xp slight disagree but the context of comedy at the very least always works from the axiom of the person is 'doing comedy's.. I know that's reductive but it gets completely ignored and I don't think the only way to do a funny racial joke is to have another character lecture about the history of racism

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If we're going to fault humor for audiences misunderstanding the point of the joke, that will pretty much invalidate any politically-charged comedy ever.

I'm sure there were plenty of racist people who laughed at the Clayton Bigsby episode of Chappelle's show because a Black man hurled racial epithets against himself, but that fairly obviously wasn't the point of the piece and doesn't obfuscate its actual point. (Though I don't think today's climate would make it possible if his show was airing today).

Right, but isn't that "with"? In other words, the audience and the actor are laughing together at their portrayal of what black people are "like"?

I am not convinced this is a reasonable description of black actors doing blackface and/or mammy/coon roles.

You don't know what the audience is laughing at, and if you're being honest with yourself, you know some proportion of the audience is in fact laughing with Jenna. But I'm thinking more about the writer honestly questioning their own motivations and unconscious biases. Of course Tina Fey doesn't affirmatively want to make racist jokes, but a lot of comedy tropes have through lines that are very racist/homophobic/antisemitic and if you make them today, even with some meta-commentary about it being wrong, you're also bringing along that history. If I were writing a sitcom and came up with sketch along these lines, yeah, I would as a white dude very much ask myself if there wasn't some part of me that wanted to "get to" make edgy jokes.

As a Black man, I already know that virtually any depiction of Black people in media will be deemed "hilarious" regardless of whether there is any comedy involved or not (see The Hero Who Rescued Three Kidnapped Women in Cleveland Is Hilarious) and have taken that into account when processing my reactions to entertainment for at least the past 30 years, if not longer.

I'm sure there were plenty of racist people who laughed at the Clayton Bigsby episode of Chappelle's show

and ppl who identified & agreed with Archie Bunker

chappelle specifically spoke about hearing the wrong kind of laughter to his skits and that being one of the reasons he quit the show

iirc it was specifically the stereotype pixies sketch but it might've been a few different ones

i think mcgruder has spoken about the same thing

IIRC Chris Rock also has talked about people not understanding the "black people vs n*****s" routine the way he intended it

Yeah, my conservative white roommate and neighbour in grad school def used that 'distinction' to give themselves licence to use the n-word.

Going to double-check that I have a stable copy of the D&D Community episode, though.

I just remembered one of the instances of black face in 30 rock is Jenna and her partner dressing up for halloween, him as Natalie Portman in black swan and her as former Pittsburgh steeler Lynn Swann. there's no "Jenna is being racist" "commentary" or whatnot going on. it's just a blackface gag

That's the only instance I remember, the "Black Swann" costume thing. Not defending it since I can't recall the full context, but I thought that was followed pretty quickly by a horrified Toofer telling her why that wasn't okay.

It was. And it was nixed pretty quickly afterward

Were there many 70s/80s sitcoms about awful people where the jokes centered on what terrible people they were? When did that trend start? Seinfeld?

All in the Family, referenced above, seems like the obvious example.

That's the only instance I remember, the "Black Swann" costume thing. Not defending it since I can't recall the full context, but I thought that was followed pretty quickly by a horrified Toofer telling her why that wasn't okay.

― soaring skrrrtpeggios (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:33 AM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

It was. And it was nixed pretty quickly afterward

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:36 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

nope, incorrect.

I don't remember that one but, even if you're right, I don't see why they should scrub the other ones that were clearly critical.

Maybe All in the Family, but I'm thinking along the lines of stuff like "Don't Trust the B in Apartment 23" where they're unapologetically self-centered assholes and that's like the fusion engine for every joke on the show.

I think a case that extreme is pretty rare even today. Archie Bunker surely no less terrible/unsympathetic than the characters in Seinfeld.

"I am not convinced this is a reasonable description of black actors doing blackface and/or mammy/coon roles."

To be clear I'm definitely asking and not trying to convince or challenge. But yeah I realized the at vs. with distinction doesn't make as much sense if we're talking about a real person doing blackface for an audience they're aware of.

xps

I'm very interested in what people on this thread think of Bamboozled

― shout-out to his family (DJP), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 10:55 AM (forty-five minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

great movie

It was. And it was nixed pretty quickly afterward

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 9:36 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

nope, incorrect.

― Rik Waller-Bridge (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, June 23, 2020 12:38 PM bookmarkflaglink

My mistake, I was talking about the scenario DJP was. I don't remember the Lynn Swann ep

Sometimes I wonder if that show-about-jerks pretext arose as a response to comedy writers being told there were some jokes that weren't funny anymore... I watch and love a lot of those shows, but at some point (especially when the showrunners continue to be mostly white, mostly men) it starts to feel like a hack so they don't have to make more of an effort.

(although there were moments in the director's commentary that made me wonder for a split second if I was overestimating Lee. e.g. "one of the main reasons I did this scene was the name, 'Tommy Hilfiger'") xxp

The weird thing is there WERE things I found possibly offensive about 30 Rock that this does nothing about. The recurring joke about Toofer being a "two-fer: black and a Harvard grad" seemed more questionable to me, or iirc an affirmative action joke about a djsabled minority early on.

I think a case that extreme is pretty rare even today

It's Always Sunny?

I'm very interested in what people on this thread think of Bamboozled

oh man I just rewatched a couple weeks back. extremely rough around the edges and badly in need of an edit but undeniably powerful