Is this anti-semitism?

there are ppl who claim antisemitism in the LAbour party isn't a real thing but I don't recall any ILXors being among them

― Simon H., Tuesday, November 26, 2019 6:30 PM (fifteen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Otm.

Also, Fred, come on man. Pointing out how the Tories want to strip a group of people of their rights and assets - a people who suffered the same fate during WW2 - is key here. This is the Tory party the chief rabbi supports. See the irony there? It was pointed out rightfully, but if you still can't see it, I don't know what to tell you.

(xxp) A mistake you might make if you don't read UK politics threads, not that I would expect you to.

Disputing whether there is/isn't AS (or to what degree) seem stuck in a groundhog day scenario, on this thread and elsewhere. If any agreement or move towards consensus is possible, it seems a better approach is to look at what steps Labour should be taking (as it seems all here agree at least that some improvements can be made?)

anvil otm as per

A lot institutions are keen to keep the discourse stuck in the groundhog day scenario though, that's a big part of the problem.

& otm again

I mean more so in the context of the people here than *out there*. Institutions may or may not be invested in such, it doesn't mean we have to be

That's obviously true.

otming imagos otming

i'd be curious to hear what you uk folk think could be done. i mean obviously not protecting or giving a platform to holocaust deniers or other obvious bigots would be an easy first step.

Mordy likes no-platforming now, astonishing

(just joshin Mordy it's chill)

I’d like the party to first institute the suggested segalov reforms
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/21/labour-antisemitism-overhaul-policy-discipline-public

We can talk about Ilhan Omar, Ephraim Mirvis, Tories, Austerity, Islamophobia, Boris, Roma, Miliband, Trump and any number of things. But none of these things are saying what we think Labour should actually do. There's almost no mention of that here, from anyone

The Roma example was responding to this question lol Fred keep up:

"mordy, if corbyn is elected pm, how do you expect his antisemitism will impact life for jewish people in the uk during his premiership?"

As I said if you are not white/male/belong to a minority then you know that at times you've got to make deal with where you live. The likes of Fred will never get it.

basically Mordy I'm generally on your team but the chief rabbi's comments have to be understood in context. he's a personal supporter of the most hard-right government we've had in decades and his announcement, tantamount to LABOUR ARE RACIST VOTE TORY, has been timed to coincide with a significant poll-bump for Labour, and a TV debate on Saturday which basically had Labour performing strongly and the Tories disastrously. The rabbi's message went out in blaring front-page glory through the usual middle-market channels (BBC, Times etc) and was a clear and calculated intervention - you would have to be extremely dense to see it any other way. I am not against examining prejudice in left-wing politics but I am completely against a well-connected member of the establishment saying 'vote establishment! The other lot are racists!' and having that message unquestioningly disseminated as the overwhelmingly dominant news narrative by the scum who comprise our media. This isn't about antisemitism, this is about gaming an election

tbc i didn't bring up the rabbi's comments and didn't know about them until lbi mentioned them

xp I feel like any genuine efforts Corbyn makes to ameliorate accusations of antisemitism often get lost in the news quagmire.
Besides, what's he supposed to say other than 'I'm not antisemitic, I oppose racism in all its forms' and then to make sure he doesn't slip up in any way that might be deemed even remotely AS? You can't really gauge racism by its absence, only by what pervades and what was said in the past.
But this isn't all on Corbyn, to be fair to him. He represents his party and makes the big decisions, but it won't stop a bunch of so-called leftwingers on Twitter spouting crap. Systematic issues need systematic resolutions. You can't flush the toilet and next day all the racists have gone and your party's not racist any more.

If only Corbyn had stuck to the IRA stuff, he'd be a hero to a lot of Americans.

Imago otm

I was just explaining my 'discreditation' comment xps

there are ppl who claim antisemitism in the LAbour party isn't a real thing but I don't recall any ILXors being among them

― Simon H., Tuesday, 26 November 2019 bookmarkflaglink

really? i think some of those ppl are itt right now!

― Mordy, Tuesday, 26 November 2019 bookmarkflaglink

As you said you might have voted Lab because of their overall offer on things like climate change. That isn't shutting down on AS.

maybe you're right i don't feel like i know enough to say for sure but a) it seems bizarre that they'd get the chief rabbi to make a statement just to counteract a small polling bump and b) that they'd think using a chief rabbi would help very much with the general uk electorate. xp

I might have voted Corbyn but alas the fool supports Arsenal

Well, they're starting to get desperate. Corbyn is outperforming what they've prepared for again

it's a bit cynical is all and if someone else was saying it i'd suspect delusional

No-one got the Chief Rabbi to do anything, he did it all on his ownsome.

and maybe the reason he's worried about corbyn being elected is precisely for the reasons he gave!

it seems bizarre that they'd get the chief rabbi to make a statement just to counteract a small polling bump and b) that they'd think using a chief rabbi would help very much with the general uk electorate

from an outsider's perspective, AS has been the most consistently effective attack line against Labour/Corbyn (to the extent that it's basically all most non-UK ppl I know have heard about Corbyn if they've heard anything) so it doesn't seem that weird to me that Tories and their supporters would work to signal boost it as much as possible during an election. (tbc I'm not saying they're not earnestly concerned about it.)

Pretty sure it's not that effective electorally tbh.

We're kind of straight back in the realms of arguing about this particular rabbi, or who is or isn't using him to do some kind of electoral thing, or whether its electorally effective or not and not about what WE think Labour should actually do

Speed up expulsions is the main one. In the past kicking the can down the road was a way of punishing/not-punishing antisemites.

did the all party inquiry into antisemitism in UK politics not find that it was more widespread within the conservatives? am I misremembering? I genuinely can’t remember and can’t find the thing while on my phone

Anything substantive in the race & faith manifesto on this score?

Yeah, that’s gross.

Labour have introduced new processes to educate, suspend or expel people accused of antisemitism under the current IHRA definition. That’s what the Jewish community asked Jeremy Corbyn and Labour officials to do, and in theory that’s exactly what he has done. In practice, due process takes longer than many people paying attention to the issue would like.

did the all party inquiry into antisemitism in UK politics not find that it was more widespread within the conservatives?

Quite possibly, but lets be realistic here and focus on where change is possible

A Jewish colleague recently pointed out to me that the Greens - a party many people will vote for if they don’t support Labour because of AS - refused to adopt the IHRA definition and have had zero scrutiny about this apart from in the JC.

there are many measures suggested by michael segalov that I don’t think they’ve implemented tho and they have been quite backwards in coming forwards in visibly engaging with mainstream jewish organisations (I think this is a function of relations having become quite strained w/various less than congenial back-and-forths between the party and eg the board of deputies this year)

What do you think is the implication? That the Greens are seen as so marginal that people don't bother criticizing them on those grounds or that issues with the IHRA are only a marginal part of the case against the Corbyn-led Labour or some third option? xp

there are many measures suggested by Michael segalov
t
ony blair electric chair (||||||||),

Thanks for the Segalov piece, was unaware of this and apologies for missing it the first time you posted it, will read that later this evening

to me corbyn is an antisemite as trump is a bigot

Lol gtfo w this mordy

I'm Jewish, I've also been following this pretty closely from overseas, and Corbyn's not an anti-semite. He's just against Zionism. I like Omar a lot, but she's used anti-semitic tropes much more clearly than Corbyn ever has (and she subsequently convincingly apologized, to my mind)

My colleague said she couldn’t vote Green either because they haven’t adopted IHRA guidance. IHRA parameters are fine by me, and I’m glad Labour adopted them (I believe) before the last election.

here's how UK Jews treated previous Labour leader Ed Milliband, who I'm sure must also be a giant anti-semite: https://www.spectator.co.uk/2015/04/how-ed-miliband-lost-the-jewish-vote/

If Corbyn ever said anything like Donald Trump only wanting short guys in yarmulkes counting his money, I must have missed it

interesting article but not sure it proves what you think - only that labour problems with the jewish community predate corbyn which is what you'd expect since one of the big problems with corbyn-led labour isn't corbyn himself

But for many, what was to follow was worse: the Labour leadership’s four-month silence as anti-Semitic attacks doubled at home. ‘Only when things got really bad did they feel they had to say something,’ says one community activist. ‘It felt like it took a very long time.’ This was the hardest thing for British Jews to bear, and it made many of them confused and angry.

Instead of attempting to heal the rift, however, Miliband went on to widen it, whipping his MPs last October in support of a motion backing unilateral recognition of a Palestinian state — proposed by a Labour backbencher who the month before had compared the Israeli army to Isis.

tho critically:

This week, a poll for the Jewish -Chronicle found that 69 per cent of Jews intend to vote Tory next month, with Labour trailing on only 22 per cent. is still much better than 93% against Labour! a lot was made of trump doing slightly better with blacks + hispanics with far less movement.

the main manifesto had these key pledges on race and faith:

On religious discrimination, we will:
• Strengthen protection for religious communities and amend the law to include attacks on places of worship (including synagogues, temples, mosques and churches) as a specific aggravated offence.

• Review current levels of funding for and access to the Places of Worship Protective Security Funding Scheme, maintain funding in real terms for the Community Security Trust, and consult on giving it statutory protection to ensure that religious communities have the support they need.

assume the second of these will look to address eg the fact jewish schools have seen a cut to security funding because the home office refuses to provide support under the current government

as an aside, the existence of a "national chief rabbi" is such an alien and inappropriate idea to me as an American Jew. Like, chief of what? According to who?