Is this anti-semitism?

Had Corbyn called Jews rapists I wouldn’t vote for him.

also probably worth pointing out that the majority of UK Jews are synagogue members and 2/3 of those are orthodox, whereas in the US about 45% of Jews are synagogue members and like 22% of those are orthodox. Also the majority of Jewish MPs have been conservative (political) since about 1983.

Mordy the climate change issue may come out on other ilx threads I don't follow but it seems like all you pop up with on UK politics is Corbyn and anti-semitism.

Do you know Labour are serious about tackling climate change at all then? And that they are the only party that people vote for in enough numbers that actually want to do something about it? Doesn't sound like it.

What has he said that makes you think he’s antisemitic? (Rather than him being slow on discipline, not taking antisemitism seriously enough, etc.)

― Bidh boladh a' mhairbh de 'n láimh fhalaimh (dowd), Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:43 PM (nineteen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

That's a question that gets asked time and time again: 'Where's the proof?'. Plenty here of course https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Corbyn#Allegations_of_antisemitism

But unless you have actual footage of Corbyn saying an actively racist slur (which I doubt he would), you'll never be able to prove anything 100%.

It's worth remembering that racism and antisemitism don't always manifest in such superficial ways though.

Boris Johnson stans would also ask the same question: 'What has he said to make you think he's a racist?'. They'd defend him and say that things like the 'watermelon smiles' comment was supposed to be an ironic send-up of racist attitudes rather than an outward expression of what he really thinks. In response, they would ask whether these comments were better or worse than Corbyn's support of a man who said Jews drank the blood of children; or why Corbyn falsely said he 'detects the hand of Israel' following a Jihadi bombing.

Truth is, you can't prove that someone's a racist, save for those who are straight-up proudly out-and-out racist. There's always going to be a spin on it depending on how you see it. Often it's reflected in actions and inaction, perceived motive rather than actual words.

But you can't also prove that someone is 100% NOT racist. In fact I don't think such a person exists. So for Corbyn and the left, it's really about addressing and owning the allegations and being seen to be ameliorating them, but never sweeping them away or denying them. If you fucked up, you fucked up - we're all human. For Corbyn I fear it's going to be hard for him to move on from this point. I really hope he can though.

To me it doesn't appear that you know much given how you pop up now and then on this issue but have stayed silent on poverty, climate change and the like so you aren't able to weigh how certain things are important and what's at stake? I mean austerity doesn't seem to be important to you?

― xyzzzz__, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:43 PM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

to some Americans anything that isn't reduced state austerity/let ppl eat cake and die on the streets is just bloody rampant socialism!

― calzino, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 4:47 PM (fourteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

What is this? 'You're bothered about racism so you can't care about other things'? Come on guys, it's possible to care about multiple issues.

to me corbyn is an antisemite as trump is a bigot - there's plenty of evidence but not enough that a committed supporter can't demonstrate that there's no smoking gun.

This is the dumbest thing I have ever read on ILX.

But everyone here acknowledges they problem of antisemitism on the left, support the expulsions of antisemites and think the party has been bad on this in the past. The only thing to do is, when Corbyn wins, do everything we can to win the trust of UK Jews. Because by the end of his term synagogues will have been burned, graveyards desecrated, Jews attacked and killed: by the Right. I trust a Labour government to oppose fascists more than the Tories.

Truth is, you can't prove that someone's a racist, save for those who are straight-up proudly out-and-out racist. There's always going to be a spin on it depending on how you see it. Often it's reflected in actions and inaction, perceived motive rather than actual words.

That's horseshit. Donald Trump is easily, provably, transparently a racist. It's plain in his public speeches as well as his long history of obvious racism. The stuff in the wikipedia article you cite is ridiculously thin.

mordy, if corbyn is elected pm, how do you expect his antisemitism will impact life for jewish people in the uk during his premiership?

xxxxp to DL
You aren't in a good position to even post about racism with your history of Lol Foreign names simpering and Lol schoolboy racism shitposting, as two examples I can recall - one of them from yesterday.

There’s clear blue water imo between the opinions of the UK Jewish community & the media pushing a hugely damaging narrative that Labour is uniquely racist and that Corbyn himself has gone from being stupid/naive/unknowing to being ready to “reopen Auschwitz”. There is a secondary narrative where the government deporting black people to their deaths is considered less worthy of comment & headlines than some random pensioner in a Facebook group making dodgy comments about Israel. There’s no sense of scale and the media is absolutely driving a wedge between different minority groups, and it’s going to a very dangerous place.

fred fwiw i agree with you about the smoking gun but i feel the same about corbyn. i think i've seen enough for both. but i still have republican friends who argue that he didn't call all mexicans rapists and that he condemned white supremacists in his "both sides" comment.

― Mordy, 26. november 2019 17:53 (eight minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Not that I'm the expert, but I think Corbyn is antisemitic the same way I think Biden is racist. A lot of weird statements where it seems there are pretty clearly some unexamined prejudice. Trump's bigotry seem a lot more hateful. A lot more hateful than anything Boris Johnson has said as well.

Anyways, that's not really my point. Unexamined prejudice is bad enough when it leads to being so catastrophically slow to act on the outright bigots in the party.

What is this? 'You're bothered about racism so you can't care about other things'? Come on guys, it's possible to care about multiple issues.

― YOU CALL THIS JOURNALSIM? (dog latin), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 bookmarkflaglink

Tell this to Mordy.

Do you know Labour are serious about tackling climate change at all then? And that they are the only party that people vote for in enough numbers that actually want to do something about it? Doesn't sound like it.

If I lived in the UK I might very well feel compelled to vote Labour on this issue despite misgivings about antisemitism in the party. I will almost certainly vote Dem in 2020 because of climate change even if it's a candidate I deeply dislike on other issues. But I am also [hold onto your seat this may come as a shock] relatively far to the left as a voter. I'm not even personally convinced suzy's congresswoman (who she so valiantly defended for no clear reason) is antisemitic. Tho I have informally polled many Jewish Democratic voters, some of them surprisingly left-wing or liberal as well, and 100% of them have said that they are strongly convinced she is. I'm naturally a skeptic but hearing such uniformity on that issue has swayed me somewhat I have to admit - if an entire community believes someone is hostile to them they probably know something and I can be [less surprising] awfully dense sometimes.

mordy, if corbyn is elected pm, how do you expect his antisemitism will impact life for jewish people in the uk during his premiership?

I don't know. Again my suspicion would be not much but then I see that upwards of 40+% of UK Jews claim they'd consider emigration if he became PM so clearly they have concerns. Are these merely concerns about antisemites being emboldened? Do they fear discrimination from the gov? Hard for me to believe but they are in a better place to judge than me.

That's horseshit. Donald Trump is easily, provably, transparently a racist. It's plain in his public speeches as well as his long history of obvious racism. The stuff in the wikipedia article you cite is ridiculously thin.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, November 26, 2019 5:06 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

I would call Donald Trump an out-and-out racist

And if we’re going to compare Corbyn and Trump, then you’re going to have to explain how Corbyn intends to use the machinery of the state to detain, torture and kill people the way Trump does.

Talking of different leaders for the anti-Semitic Labour Party, the last Labour leader was Jewish and it was under his leadership that the Jewish vote collapsed as a direct result of his change of approach to Israel - and a lot of shit was thrown in his direction from Representatives Of The Jewish Community. The anti-Semitic stuff he and his family got from the right-wing media was, perhaps, more predictable.

xxxxp to DL
You aren't in a good position to even post about racism with your history of Lol Foreign names simpering and Lol schoolboy racism shitposting, as two examples I can recall - one of them from yesterday.

― calzino, Tuesday, November 26, 2019 5:07 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to in the first instance, and I was hardly lolling about the schoolboy racism. Who are you to tell me what I can and can't post about?

What Tom D said, and what I said in acknowledged upthread.

I find this slightly amusing in that, afaict, the UK politics thread is like 97% liberal/left-leaning folks dunking on Corbyn/Labour.

The usual UK suspects all showing up to prove Mordy right. Good work.

Can we get a moratorium on whataboutism/whataboutery for a few weeks just to see what happens?

Here are the Tory plans for Roma communities and I guarantee that this is worse than anything a Corbyn PM will do to any minority.

The Tory manifesto contains a clause that they're going to confiscate the property and vehicles of Roma and traveller communities. pic.twitter.com/eQbJvFWkLZ

— libcom dot org (@libcomorg) November 26, 2019

xps

And you show up to embarrass him by lending your support. What fun. (xps)

Can we get a moratorium on whataboutism/whataboutery for a few weeks just to see what happens?

― pomenitul, 26. november 2019 18:18 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

Here are the Tory plans for Roma communities and I guarantee that this is worse than anything a Corbyn PM will do to any minority.

― xyzzzz__, 26. november 2019 18:18 (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

This 1-2 is objectively hilarious.

xxp there is only so much hypocrisy on the subject of the media in this country suddenly caring about racism that people can take. The two ideas are not in conflict (that one can acknowledge and understand the worries of UK Jewish people re Corbyn) but also point out that the fucking Tory party is consorting with fascists and has deported black people yo their death with zero consequences.

The usual UK suspects all showing up to prove Mordy right. Good work.

xp I too find state racism against groups I don’t consider important hilarious

not a day goes by etc xp

Objectively hilarious, even.

Can we all agree that nobody's denying that the Tory party are a bunch of evil, bigoted fuckheads and that their brand of racism is infinitely bigger and badder than any Labour racism, perceived or real.

I'm still not sure how comfortable I am with the idea that 'Yeah Labour probably a little bit racist but it's okay because the environment/austerity/Tories are worse'. If that's what people are going to jump to every time, it's kind of ignoring the issue, and that's part of the problem in the first place: Not the fact that there is racism in the Labour party, but that people are so quick to wash their hands of it

does the SNP run candidates in England, they seem like a good choice

I too find state racism against groups I don’t consider important hilarious

― gyac, 26. november 2019 18:23 (eleven seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Your self-righteousness seriously makes me want to puke. Jumping into the anti-semitism thread to shout about discrimination of Roma instead is shitty behaviour, end of story. It's using discrimination of one minority to silence another. Then to become such a prick when it's pointed out is unbelievable.

Not the fact that there is racism in the Labour party, but that people are so quick to wash their hands of it

Especially on ilxor dot com where it's safe to assume that no one in a million years would even so much as think of voting tory.

Mate, you’re using a thread about antisemitism to have a pop at people from other threads you don’t like. And yeah, it is very much on topic because it illustrates a point that I and others have made: that the Tories indicating their intentions to strip Romany people of their property went completely unremarked because they aren’t held to any standards.

there are ppl who claim antisemitism in the LAbour party isn't a real thing but I don't recall any ILXors being among them

really? i think some of those ppl are itt right now!

Fred, any student of C20 history knows that Roma were persecuted at the same time as Jewish people, by the same people who persecuted them. Their fates are never not connected, especially when you consider Tories went out of their way to state allyship with that raging antisemite Orban, who disparages both.

there are ppl who claim antisemitism in the LAbour party isn't a real thing but I don't recall any ILXors being among them

― Simon H., Tuesday, November 26, 2019 6:30 PM (fifteen seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Otm.

Also, Fred, come on man. Pointing out how the Tories want to strip a group of people of their rights and assets - a people who suffered the same fate during WW2 - is key here. This is the Tory party the chief rabbi supports. See the irony there? It was pointed out rightfully, but if you still can't see it, I don't know what to tell you.

(xxp) A mistake you might make if you don't read UK politics threads, not that I would expect you to.

Disputing whether there is/isn't AS (or to what degree) seem stuck in a groundhog day scenario, on this thread and elsewhere. If any agreement or move towards consensus is possible, it seems a better approach is to look at what steps Labour should be taking (as it seems all here agree at least that some improvements can be made?)

anvil otm as per

A lot institutions are keen to keep the discourse stuck in the groundhog day scenario though, that's a big part of the problem.

& otm again

I mean more so in the context of the people here than *out there*. Institutions may or may not be invested in such, it doesn't mean we have to be

That's obviously true.

otming imagos otming

i'd be curious to hear what you uk folk think could be done. i mean obviously not protecting or giving a platform to holocaust deniers or other obvious bigots would be an easy first step.

Mordy likes no-platforming now, astonishing

(just joshin Mordy it's chill)

I’d like the party to first institute the suggested segalov reforms
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/feb/21/labour-antisemitism-overhaul-policy-discipline-public