2008 Primaries Thread

xpost I will vote for Hillary if she is the D nominee; I just won't do it as happily as I would if the nominee were Obama. The bottom line for me is the Supreme Court, and Hillary's choices would be preferable to McCain's or Romney's or (god forbid) Huckabee's.

I don't think John is totally alone in his "I'm a liberal type who won't vote for a Clinton" thinking, though. I've got several liberal women friends who can't stand her for their own reason. (One of them because "she stayed with her husband after he CHEATED on her." It's not necessarily a policy or personality thing - feelings about Hillary are polarizing for any number of reasons).

For the record, a) I'm a dude, b) I'm pretty sure I've been saying nice things about Hillary throughout this thread.

Morbius, he has far far fewer corporate interests by a huge factor than, say, a 20-year-old political dynastic enterprise called Clinton Inc.

ILX'ors are snippy and hyper-aggressive, but I doubt they're opposed to HRC on gender-bias grounds.

Yeah, truth be told, I would love to vote for a woman for president, but Hillary's not it, unfortunately.

^this is true for me as well

that said, if she is the nominee i'll vote for her

Yeah, I should've added that.

Hil took the Latino & Asian-American votes in Cali largely because she shored up support with community leaders early. She got Villaraigosa in L.A., and the predominantly Latino unions that have supported him. She made sure she picked up Fabian Nunez and Debbie Huerta. She made sure she picke up on Newsom's popularity with Asian-Americans, and she got endorsements down the line from a number of Asian-American elected officials.

Obama pissed off segments of the Asian-American community with his "Clinton (D-Punjab)" shit, and the whole 80-20 initiative to unite the Asian-American community to defeat the Obama nom started when some O staffers waffled on a questionaire about affirmative action for Asian-Americans.

Obviously "communities" bleh, but these are pieces of the puzzle.

far far fewer corporate interests by a huge factor than, say, a 20-year-old political dynastic enterprise called Clinton Inc.

That would be why I voted for him -- that he's not quite as accomplished at being corrupt.

Here is a video of Hillary Clinton lecturing a group of Code Pink women on why we need to go to war in Iraq (March 2, 2003): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcY6TGfAxE

Her active support for the war in Iraq (beyond her vote on the resolution) is a significant part of my strong distaste for Clinton.

I do not believe that she has a good explanation for her support for the war in Iraq.

I don't think John is totally alone in his "I'm a liberal type who won't vote for a Clinton" thinking, though.

He's not. It should be noted, tho, that there are plenty of people in a similar spot on the other side of the coin (they're die-hard Republicans who will never, ever, vote for John McCain).

I do not believe that she has a good explanation for her support for the war in Iraq.

She doesn't. That's one of the reasons she's not as well-positioned to oppose McCain in the GE.

She made sure she picke up on Newsom's popularity with Asian-Americans

Gavin's popular outside the bay area with Asian-Americans? weird

anyway thanks for elaborating HOOS I knew about the Villaigroso nom but not some of that other stuff

I like Hillary's policies and experience just fine, and would probably think the actual person just great, and if she's the nominee I'll get all excited and enthusiastic for her. But I found her aura-of-inevitability act ridiculous if not offensive given that her record was nothing special compared to those of her opponents, she started with the highest negatives of all, and her political skills just aren't that great. Her willingness to try on different personas and voices makes my skin crawl, and her willingness to play dirty within the party instead of simply arguing that the other guy won't stand up as well in a tough fight turned me cold. Now that she's dialed back the intramural hardball and coronation campaign, I feel slightly more disposed to her, and could end up ruefully rooting for her if additional data suggests she's the electability queen, but all she has to do is talk in her consultant-directed soft voice, and part of me prays I don't ever have to hear her again. Of course, that's sexist, unlike my similarly visceral reaction to Bush's cowboy act and Cheney's hardman-on-pacemaker schtick.

I think it's interesting that daria keeps complainng about all the boys beating up on Hillary, but even apart from her actually explicitly anti-Obama comments, I read a lot of her pro-Hillary comments as to the same effect, and don't recall her ever saying anything at all that's positive about him.

nom endorsement

x-post

I love Hillary. Her conduct at certain points in this campaign has been fairly repugnant, and I do have self-interested reasons for preferring Obama. But I would love to vote for a Democratic woman for president, especially one who's a committed feminist like Hillary. I just think Obama would be better.

(And I agree that people are being dicks to you on this thread at times, Daria.)

xpost to Daniel, Esq., that is also true - I just think they'd be more motivated to hold their noses and vote for McCain if Hillary was the D nominee than if Obama was the D nominee.

(But yeah... I have a whole stable of R relatives who seem to call McCain "McBlame" for some reason.)

Never underestimate the ability of the Republican Party to close ranks.

Sadly, I think you're both right.

ThisI won't vote for Hillary if she gets the nom shit is crazy, hold your nose and pull the lever. You're never going to get a proper left winger nominated, let alone elected, to county dog catcher and the alternative is 4 more years of Republicanism in whatever form it takes which will be far worse with the added bonus that the most likely nominee on the other side is over 70 and may gift the whitehouse to whatever social conservative slug he gives the VP spot to in order to placate the Neanderthal wing of his party.

'nebb otm

Gavin OTM - I seem to recall a lot of "Republicans don't like Bush either!" fervor in 2004.

ThisI won't vote for Hillary if she gets the nom shit is crazy, hold your nose and pull the lever

I'll do no such thing. If Hillary gets the nom, she won't need my vote to win my district. And I don't want to be complicit in her getting elected.

we've been over this.

Her active support for the war in Iraq (beyond her vote on the resolution) is a significant part of my strong distaste for Clinton.

I do not believe that she has a good explanation for her support for the war in Iraq.

I agree, and her explanations of her vote strike me as very GWB. This is one of the main reasons why I will be very uncomfortable with her as the Democratic nominee.

Ed, that's not true at all. Many of us live in states where our general election vote doesn't matter. Shakey's in Solid Blue territory, I'm in Solid Red territory - I think John J is in Solid Blue territory.

If one of us chooses to not vote for Hillary on principle, it wouldn't change a thing.

...will vote for Hillary if she is the D nominee; I just won't do it as happily as I would if the nominee were Obama. The bottom line for me is the Supreme Court

Seconded

I seem to recall a lot of "Republicans don't like Bush either!" fervor in 2004.

? I don't remember that at all!

I would definitely vote for Hillary if she's the nominee, but I'd be a lot more excited if it were Obama, and I agree with Milo that a Clinton vs. McCain contest would be harder.

ILX'ors are snippy and hyper-aggressive, but I doubt they're opposed to HRC on gender-bias grounds.

But I think the tricky thing about talking about gender bias & HRC in general is that people don't have issues with her because she's a woman, the issues they have against her often get mentally processed and expressed differently because she's a woman. This is hard to get around, especially because it's not often intentional.

I think that a lot of older women are sincerely invested in and excited about the possibility of the first woman President, and that there are men who would share in their investment/excitement if she were the nominee, but I can't help questioning how many of them are really just not that comfortable letting the cool, young black guy be their voice.

As for pet causes -- while I don't expect Obama to champion gay rights significantly over any other candidate, he's the only Dem candidate to mention queer folk in his stump speeches. That, and the Clinton's abandonment of gay rights after the '92 election was pretty distasteful.

Has anyone read anything about the possibility of a right-wing third-party candidate emerging, possibly one based on anti-immigrant sentiment (e.g., Lou Dobbs)?

That might be one very effective way of undercutting McCain's GOP support (I'm not sure what impact it would have on the Democratic base, if any).

That is the nature of democracy, especially in a system like either of the ones in the US or the UK, but the alternative is being complicit in the other guy getting elected.

xpost

I don't think you should feel obligated to vote for Clinton just to keep a Republican out of office. That kind of goes against what voting is supposed to mean.

I do think that if you don't vote for anyone at all you're a fucking idiot, though.

Shakey, in the runup to the 2004 election, the most vocal Bush detractors in my office were Republicans. They all voted for Bush again.

I can't help questioning how many of them are really just not that comfortable letting the cool, young black guy be their voice.

Really? Are we going to get into this shit again?

Can't we just assume that everyone subconsciously distrusts everyone who isn't like them and move on?

Anybody "leaving the country" when McCain/Huckabee sweeps the Midwest and trounces Hillary in the GE?

Frank Rich has had a theme in his Sunday op-eds that there is no way Hillary can beat McCain in the main election, so Democrats are idiots not to unite behind Obama.

"I'll do no such thing. If Hillary gets the nom, she won't need my vote to win my district. And I don't want to be complicit in her getting elected."

I think I agree with this. I live in NJ which will go to whoever the Democrat is. I can't vote for Hillary, and won't vote for any of the Republicans. I'd be safe to sit this out if Obama isn't the nominee. I'd quit my job and volunteer for him if he is, though.

I agree, and her explanations of her vote strike me as very GWB.

They were both foreign policy newbs with limited grasp of modern military strategy and tactics? I can forgive people being wrong, but I'm less likely if they don't acknowldege what's right in front of them, as GWB has done, either from political expediency or just ideological rigidity and I worry that a candidate, like Obama, might be just as myopic only ideologically rigid in his pacifism. POTUS is a hard job and no matter how much history you read or don't, at some point you have to realize that you're basically winging it.

But I think the tricky thing about talking about gender bias & HRC in general is that people don't have issues with her because she's a woman, the issues they have against her often get mentally processed and expressed differently because she's a woman. This is hard to get around, especially because it's not often intentional.

I realize it's hard for anyone to evaluate themselves on issues like this, but I don't think I am biased against HRC in any way because of her gender, and if I see her actions through a gender-impacted lens, I at least think I'm aware of it. I prefer Obama because (a) I prefer his position on the use for American military power, (b) his foreign policy advisory team (made up of people who opposed the Iraq War from the start), (c) I think he's a much better GE candidate than HRC (because of her very high negative ratings). Maybe there's some "gender processing" going on in my head, but given my reasons for preferring Obama, I don't think so.

Has anyone read anything about the possibility of a right-wing third-party candidate emerging, possibly one based on anti-immigrant sentiment (e.g., Lou Dobbs)?

That might be one very effective way of undercutting McCain's GOP support (I'm not sure what impact it would have on the Democratic base, if any).

-- Daniel, Esq., Wednesday, February 6, 2008 10:15 PM

I hear tell that Ron Paul is saving up all that money for a third-party run.

Michael White OTM, like ANYONE is really prepared to inherit the steaming and hictoric pile of shit that will be dumped on the next president on "Day One"

Paul/Dobbs '08

The main issue in this election is, or should be, Iraq, and HRC is complicit in that fiasco.

A large part of why I prefer Obama to Hillary lies in the fact that he's an Ivy League-educated, relatively laid-back, liberal-leaning black man. Like me.

I hear tell that Ron Paul is saving up all that money for a third-party run.

But he isn't hardline anti-immigrant (openly), is he? I thought -- ostensibly, at least -- he was libertarian and isolationist.

I don't think Paul will run. He got away with it before because he was a non-entity (the party left him and his district alone). If he Naders them this time, they'll pour money into a primary challenge in two years.

A large part of why I prefer Obama to Hillary lies in the fact that he's an Ivy League-educated, relatively laid-back, liberal-leaning black man. Like me.

Easy there, college guy.

lol

The "Clinton wins Missouri" story wasn't the only oopsie for the Associated Press on Tuesday night. Within an hour of making that mistake, the AP reported that Led Zeppelin was going to headline the Bonnaroo Arts and Music Festival, which will be held June 13-15 in Manchester, Tenn. Seventeen minutes later, that story was retracted.

wow, i just realized i'll be coming back to the us, unemployed, 2 months before the election. if i could somehow get money to live on, i could volunteer for the campaign. i'll probably get a job instead though.

daniel - i wasn't directing that toward you, i haven't been following ilx that closely. it was more of a general comment. i have trouble figuring out how gender affects my reactions to hillary myself, which i only realized recently.

A large part of why I prefer Obama to Hillary lies in the fact that he's an Ivy League-educated, relatively laid-back, liberal-leaning black man. Like me.

"This is our moment! We are the agents of change! Yes we can! Where the titties at?"