2008 Primaries Thread

I don't understand why Hillary is automatically the devil. I prefer Obama but I am really fine with either of them being the Democratic nominee because I think they both speak to issues I care about in the way I want my President to address them.

okay yeah i'm confused about the "loan" - does she get paid back from her own campaign later on?

Shakey, Obama voted for both of those

I think they're both markedly less evil than Bush, but probably won't get much accomplished and will basically be the same President once in office.

If I vote for Obama in the primary, it's going to be because I think Hillary v. McCain is a more difficult fight than Obama v. McCain.

xpost - I think you can be paid back but are allowed not to be

Shakey, Obama voted for both of those

yeah I know so why would they prefer Hillary over him - you're missing my point

yes shakey obv the only issue we vote on is the fucking fence

Old women are voting for Hillary because she sends them disgustingly deceptive--but very effective--direct mail that claims Obama is against universal health care and wants to raise their taxes and take away their Social Security check.

Can we talk more about Hillary's $5 "investment" in her own campaign and how this might be her death knell? We're going to be seeing a lot of stories about where Bill Clinton's wealth comes from, i.e. shady dealings with Kazakhstan and Ron Burkle.

If you really want to get to the core reason of why I support Obama over Hillary, I think it's really embodied by his campaign, particularly in the rhetoric and values it espouses. Far from being window dressing, I think the idea of 'bringing people together,' that 'there is more that unites us than divides us,' and the persistent use of the 1st person plural embodies a kind of participatory civic action that, if I can be optimistic for a second, is a cornerstone to restoring politics. I want people to care and be involved in politics again, especially on the local level where it can make the most difference, and I think Obama's experience as a community organizer has set the tone for his campaign.

Obama, I think, is the only Democratic contender who could actually forestall corporate influence in Washington, as opposed to Clinton, who I think is more comfortable leveraging her corporate connections to enact her pet policies.

(end screed)

My wife voted Hillary precisely because she liked what happened to the country economically under Bill and sees Hillary as a continuation of that line of economic thought. She also thinks that Obama doesn't have good explanations for past votes that contradict his current stances and Hillary does (as did Edwards while he was still in the race).

*sigh*

my point is that neither candidate has shown any great leadership or sensitivity on immigration (which is a bigger issue than just a fence and i probably the biggest high-profile issue specifically affecting latinos in this election), so a latino preference for Hillary would seem to be about something by and large besides policy... is this a crazy conclusion for me to draw?

x-post

Daria, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the make-up of this board. I like Hillary at least as much as I like Obama (part of the reason I didn't vote in NYC yesterday - I didn't feel compelled to cast a vote for one over the other). Sometimes I like Obama a bit more (generally when I read that his favorite television show is The Wire - a fairly ridiculous reason to vote one way) and sometimes I like Hillary more. I certainly don't hate her, though.
Which is to say: I suspect that Obama supporters feel more certain of their candidate than potential Hillary supporters. Or at least more passionate. There's certainly something about Obama that inspires louder voices than Hillary. Which might mean that plenty of Hillary supporters are lurking.

I will categorically not vote for Clinton, no matter what. Beyond the specifics, I have a strong, deep mistrust of her and her political machine, which has been strengthened by her behaviour throughout this pre-election cycle.

ilx: full of jerks, what are you gonna do?

I don't think ILX is full of jerks personally to me, but something to consider is that maybe there's some degree of solidarity in which when you see a bunch of guys behave like jerks toward another woman, one takes it a little personal? It's not feeling sorry for her, now, it's about.. wanting to take a stand against the forces of jerkdom which probably most women are familiar with in their own lives.

Someone may have posted or commented on this already, but here is an interesting article, albeit from the Washington Times, which argues (convincingly, I think) that Obama is a much harder matchup for John McCain than HRC.

I'd guess the "surge" in support for Obama is -- in part, at least -- based on a growing realization that we'll face McCain in the GE, and that he will be a far more formidable opponent than we anticipated.

No, I don't know what the deal is about the midgets.

Apparently while on the teevee last night somebody said to Beck that the midget vote hadn't come in yet in CA. He then laughed. Beck then claimed on his show today that someone sent him an irate e-mail berating him for laughing at an insensitive term and urging him to "rise above it," haw haw haw. I kinda think he made it up.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I won't vote for Clinton if she's the nominee (it's all about the war for me). I live in *&^#( @ Kansas right now, so if the nominee isn't Obama, this place will go Republican anyway, so it won't matter which way I vote. I'll probably vote for my wife instead in that scenario.

I think Dennis Perrin is posting as daria.

Here's evenhandedness: lol at Obama "fending off corporate interests" when he's up to his eyes in their support.

Re: superdelegates, I'm not sure if I agree with Hatch (?) upthread that Hil or 'Bama would concede, but I do think that most of the superdelegates are remaining uncomitted now that the race is competitive so they can just go with whoever wins more committed delegates. The superdelegate system is designed to keep out candidates the establishment is horrified by, and Obama's getting the support of the establishment at this point. Anyone with an investment in the Democratic party should do everything in their power to avoid having this come down to the convention.

I don't think ILX is full of jerks personally to me, but something to consider is that maybe there's some degree of solidarity in which when you see a bunch of guys behave like jerks toward another woman, one takes it a little personal? It's not feeling sorry for her, now, it's about.. wanting to take a stand against the forces of jerkdom which probably most women are familiar with in their own lives.

ILX'ors are snippy and hyper-aggressive, but I doubt they're opposed to HRC on gender-bias grounds. On the other hand, I have a strong visceral negative reaction to seeing the conservative-leaning "Good Old Boys" who dominate TV punditry, and I certainly don't want us emulating that.

Also, 60% turnout in my ward yesterday!

daria, just to be clear -- I don't think my preference for Obama has anything to do with his having a penis, or her having a vagina. (Or does she lack a penis, and he lacks a vagina? whatever)

has daria forgotten who was standing on that Iowa defeat-night platform w/ Hil? All the Forces of Jerkdom the Dems could muster (maybe Rahm Emanuel was missing).

xpost I will vote for Hillary if she is the D nominee; I just won't do it as happily as I would if the nominee were Obama. The bottom line for me is the Supreme Court, and Hillary's choices would be preferable to McCain's or Romney's or (god forbid) Huckabee's.

I don't think John is totally alone in his "I'm a liberal type who won't vote for a Clinton" thinking, though. I've got several liberal women friends who can't stand her for their own reason. (One of them because "she stayed with her husband after he CHEATED on her." It's not necessarily a policy or personality thing - feelings about Hillary are polarizing for any number of reasons).

For the record, a) I'm a dude, b) I'm pretty sure I've been saying nice things about Hillary throughout this thread.

Morbius, he has far far fewer corporate interests by a huge factor than, say, a 20-year-old political dynastic enterprise called Clinton Inc.

ILX'ors are snippy and hyper-aggressive, but I doubt they're opposed to HRC on gender-bias grounds.

Yeah, truth be told, I would love to vote for a woman for president, but Hillary's not it, unfortunately.

^this is true for me as well

that said, if she is the nominee i'll vote for her

Yeah, I should've added that.

Hil took the Latino & Asian-American votes in Cali largely because she shored up support with community leaders early. She got Villaraigosa in L.A., and the predominantly Latino unions that have supported him. She made sure she picked up Fabian Nunez and Debbie Huerta. She made sure she picke up on Newsom's popularity with Asian-Americans, and she got endorsements down the line from a number of Asian-American elected officials.

Obama pissed off segments of the Asian-American community with his "Clinton (D-Punjab)" shit, and the whole 80-20 initiative to unite the Asian-American community to defeat the Obama nom started when some O staffers waffled on a questionaire about affirmative action for Asian-Americans.

Obviously "communities" bleh, but these are pieces of the puzzle.

far far fewer corporate interests by a huge factor than, say, a 20-year-old political dynastic enterprise called Clinton Inc.

That would be why I voted for him -- that he's not quite as accomplished at being corrupt.

Here is a video of Hillary Clinton lecturing a group of Code Pink women on why we need to go to war in Iraq (March 2, 2003): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcY6TGfAxE

Her active support for the war in Iraq (beyond her vote on the resolution) is a significant part of my strong distaste for Clinton.

I do not believe that she has a good explanation for her support for the war in Iraq.

I don't think John is totally alone in his "I'm a liberal type who won't vote for a Clinton" thinking, though.

He's not. It should be noted, tho, that there are plenty of people in a similar spot on the other side of the coin (they're die-hard Republicans who will never, ever, vote for John McCain).

I do not believe that she has a good explanation for her support for the war in Iraq.

She doesn't. That's one of the reasons she's not as well-positioned to oppose McCain in the GE.

She made sure she picke up on Newsom's popularity with Asian-Americans

Gavin's popular outside the bay area with Asian-Americans? weird

anyway thanks for elaborating HOOS I knew about the Villaigroso nom but not some of that other stuff

I like Hillary's policies and experience just fine, and would probably think the actual person just great, and if she's the nominee I'll get all excited and enthusiastic for her. But I found her aura-of-inevitability act ridiculous if not offensive given that her record was nothing special compared to those of her opponents, she started with the highest negatives of all, and her political skills just aren't that great. Her willingness to try on different personas and voices makes my skin crawl, and her willingness to play dirty within the party instead of simply arguing that the other guy won't stand up as well in a tough fight turned me cold. Now that she's dialed back the intramural hardball and coronation campaign, I feel slightly more disposed to her, and could end up ruefully rooting for her if additional data suggests she's the electability queen, but all she has to do is talk in her consultant-directed soft voice, and part of me prays I don't ever have to hear her again. Of course, that's sexist, unlike my similarly visceral reaction to Bush's cowboy act and Cheney's hardman-on-pacemaker schtick.

I think it's interesting that daria keeps complainng about all the boys beating up on Hillary, but even apart from her actually explicitly anti-Obama comments, I read a lot of her pro-Hillary comments as to the same effect, and don't recall her ever saying anything at all that's positive about him.

nom endorsement

x-post

I love Hillary. Her conduct at certain points in this campaign has been fairly repugnant, and I do have self-interested reasons for preferring Obama. But I would love to vote for a Democratic woman for president, especially one who's a committed feminist like Hillary. I just think Obama would be better.

(And I agree that people are being dicks to you on this thread at times, Daria.)

xpost to Daniel, Esq., that is also true - I just think they'd be more motivated to hold their noses and vote for McCain if Hillary was the D nominee than if Obama was the D nominee.

(But yeah... I have a whole stable of R relatives who seem to call McCain "McBlame" for some reason.)

Never underestimate the ability of the Republican Party to close ranks.

Sadly, I think you're both right.

ThisI won't vote for Hillary if she gets the nom shit is crazy, hold your nose and pull the lever. You're never going to get a proper left winger nominated, let alone elected, to county dog catcher and the alternative is 4 more years of Republicanism in whatever form it takes which will be far worse with the added bonus that the most likely nominee on the other side is over 70 and may gift the whitehouse to whatever social conservative slug he gives the VP spot to in order to placate the Neanderthal wing of his party.

'nebb otm

Gavin OTM - I seem to recall a lot of "Republicans don't like Bush either!" fervor in 2004.

ThisI won't vote for Hillary if she gets the nom shit is crazy, hold your nose and pull the lever

I'll do no such thing. If Hillary gets the nom, she won't need my vote to win my district. And I don't want to be complicit in her getting elected.

we've been over this.

Her active support for the war in Iraq (beyond her vote on the resolution) is a significant part of my strong distaste for Clinton.

I do not believe that she has a good explanation for her support for the war in Iraq.

I agree, and her explanations of her vote strike me as very GWB. This is one of the main reasons why I will be very uncomfortable with her as the Democratic nominee.

Ed, that's not true at all. Many of us live in states where our general election vote doesn't matter. Shakey's in Solid Blue territory, I'm in Solid Red territory - I think John J is in Solid Blue territory.

If one of us chooses to not vote for Hillary on principle, it wouldn't change a thing.

...will vote for Hillary if she is the D nominee; I just won't do it as happily as I would if the nominee were Obama. The bottom line for me is the Supreme Court

Seconded

I seem to recall a lot of "Republicans don't like Bush either!" fervor in 2004.

? I don't remember that at all!