2008 Primaries Thread

Nicole.. OK, I'm not the only one. Seemed like it for a while

I want to talk more about the womens' vote. Are these women not going to vote for Obama in the general? my Mom certainly would, but I can't say that about my octogenarian grandmother. and what is the size of the womens' vote that Hillary would swing in a general (discounted by increased turnout in opposition to her and at least some loss of independents) vis-a-vis the size of extra male and independent and youth support Obama would obtain (discounted by at least some losses among older white folks and hispanics)?

the idea that women following husbands outside the privacy of the voting booth being responsible for Obama's caucus wins is completely ridiculous imo.

are they not aware she wants a fucking wall between the US and Mexico?

I've gone into plenty of detail about why I would never vote for Hillary gimme a break

Pundit on ABC last night put the women going for Clinton down to the fact that Women normally manage family healthcare and Hillary has the better plan, which is, at least, plausible.

That's not what I said, gabbneb. I simply said that for some women that probably does happen.

BBC posits this:

But over and above any dislike for Mr Obama, the main attraction of Mrs Clinton for many Hispanic voters is her husband.

They remember Bill Clinton's presidency as a time of economic prosperity - and his wife has benefited from those positive feelings.

In the Mercado, a market in East Los Angeles, Mario and Susana Espitia said that they felt that Obama was a "good guy" ("es un buen tipo"), but that they would vote for Mrs Clinton.

"In spite of Monica Lewinsky, Clinton was a good president, the economy was going well, we had jobs, and there was not a war. It's a great deal, we get her and the back-up support of her husband," said Mario.

Health care matters a lot to me, of course I've mentioned it here and got LOLZ HEALTHCARE

apparently, besides romney, there's recent precedent for self-loaning to campaigns; kerry in 2003 and john mccain in 2007 took out loans against a mortgage and a life insurance policy, respectively.

mmm, Newsmaxy

mccain giving a press conference asking for the conservatives to lighten up on bashing him while fucking lieberman

"In spite of Monica Lewinsky, Clinton was a good president, the economy was going well, we had jobs, and there was not a war. It's a great deal, we get her and the back-up support of her husband," said Mario.

argh hillary supported this fucking war you idiot

Health care matters a lot to me

keep repeating that obama-doesn't-care-about-health-care mantra

let's all make up crazy shit and then cite to newsmaxxy

Gabbneb, you can read, WTF. That is not what I said.

when discussing "Latinos," by the way, let's omit Cuban-Americans, who LOATHE both Clinton as much as Limbaugh does.

guys, obviously men are for obama because he's a man (unless they're for hillary because they're old like her) and woman are for hillary because she's a woman (unless they're for obama because he's young like them). what about this is hard to understand?

daria, i understand you feel embattled and i do sympathize that you don't think you've been received fairly, but please -- i don't think anyone here bears you any personal animus, although it's pretty obvious that the ilx demographic slants obama anyway, so the deck (at least here) is kinda stacked against you, sorry to say

when discussing Latinos, btw, let's pretend that Cubans make up 1 in 20

ilx: full of jerks, what are you gonna do?

Daria, there's a lot that I like about Hillary -- she's smart, she's got experience, and I think she would make a decent president -- but there's more that I like about Obama, especially in terms of his ability to actually win a general election and set aside the country's divisiveness. The idea of a fresh start is awfully appealing, and I don't think that he's all rhetoric either: I think that's just his strategy at this stage in the game. The only thing about Hillary that has really disgusted me so far is her attempt to count the Florida and Michigan delegates.

Hillary's record -

2006: Voted in favor of H.R. 6061 to create border fence Sen. Clinton voted in favor of H.R. 6061 (whose main sponsor was Rep. Peter King (NY)) to create a 700 mile reinforced fence along the U.S.-Mexico border, and to provide for other barriers for border control. H.R. 6061 passed by a vote of 80-19.

2006: Voted on Senate floor for amendment to fund border fence Sen. Clinton voted in favor of the Sessions amendment to H.R. 5631 (whose main sponsor was Rep. Bill Young (FL)), the Department of Defense Appropriations bill. The Sessions amendment would provide for $1.8 billion for the construction of 370 miles of border fencing and 461 miles of vehicle barriers along the southern border. The Sessions amendment passed by a vote of 94-3.

I don't understand why Hillary is automatically the devil. I prefer Obama but I am really fine with either of them being the Democratic nominee because I think they both speak to issues I care about in the way I want my President to address them.

okay yeah i'm confused about the "loan" - does she get paid back from her own campaign later on?

Shakey, Obama voted for both of those

I think they're both markedly less evil than Bush, but probably won't get much accomplished and will basically be the same President once in office.

If I vote for Obama in the primary, it's going to be because I think Hillary v. McCain is a more difficult fight than Obama v. McCain.

xpost - I think you can be paid back but are allowed not to be

Shakey, Obama voted for both of those

yeah I know so why would they prefer Hillary over him - you're missing my point

yes shakey obv the only issue we vote on is the fucking fence

Old women are voting for Hillary because she sends them disgustingly deceptive--but very effective--direct mail that claims Obama is against universal health care and wants to raise their taxes and take away their Social Security check.

Can we talk more about Hillary's $5 "investment" in her own campaign and how this might be her death knell? We're going to be seeing a lot of stories about where Bill Clinton's wealth comes from, i.e. shady dealings with Kazakhstan and Ron Burkle.

If you really want to get to the core reason of why I support Obama over Hillary, I think it's really embodied by his campaign, particularly in the rhetoric and values it espouses. Far from being window dressing, I think the idea of 'bringing people together,' that 'there is more that unites us than divides us,' and the persistent use of the 1st person plural embodies a kind of participatory civic action that, if I can be optimistic for a second, is a cornerstone to restoring politics. I want people to care and be involved in politics again, especially on the local level where it can make the most difference, and I think Obama's experience as a community organizer has set the tone for his campaign.

Obama, I think, is the only Democratic contender who could actually forestall corporate influence in Washington, as opposed to Clinton, who I think is more comfortable leveraging her corporate connections to enact her pet policies.

(end screed)

My wife voted Hillary precisely because she liked what happened to the country economically under Bill and sees Hillary as a continuation of that line of economic thought. She also thinks that Obama doesn't have good explanations for past votes that contradict his current stances and Hillary does (as did Edwards while he was still in the race).

*sigh*

my point is that neither candidate has shown any great leadership or sensitivity on immigration (which is a bigger issue than just a fence and i probably the biggest high-profile issue specifically affecting latinos in this election), so a latino preference for Hillary would seem to be about something by and large besides policy... is this a crazy conclusion for me to draw?

x-post

Daria, I wouldn't jump to conclusions about the make-up of this board. I like Hillary at least as much as I like Obama (part of the reason I didn't vote in NYC yesterday - I didn't feel compelled to cast a vote for one over the other). Sometimes I like Obama a bit more (generally when I read that his favorite television show is The Wire - a fairly ridiculous reason to vote one way) and sometimes I like Hillary more. I certainly don't hate her, though.
Which is to say: I suspect that Obama supporters feel more certain of their candidate than potential Hillary supporters. Or at least more passionate. There's certainly something about Obama that inspires louder voices than Hillary. Which might mean that plenty of Hillary supporters are lurking.

I will categorically not vote for Clinton, no matter what. Beyond the specifics, I have a strong, deep mistrust of her and her political machine, which has been strengthened by her behaviour throughout this pre-election cycle.

ilx: full of jerks, what are you gonna do?

I don't think ILX is full of jerks personally to me, but something to consider is that maybe there's some degree of solidarity in which when you see a bunch of guys behave like jerks toward another woman, one takes it a little personal? It's not feeling sorry for her, now, it's about.. wanting to take a stand against the forces of jerkdom which probably most women are familiar with in their own lives.

Someone may have posted or commented on this already, but here is an interesting article, albeit from the Washington Times, which argues (convincingly, I think) that Obama is a much harder matchup for John McCain than HRC.

I'd guess the "surge" in support for Obama is -- in part, at least -- based on a growing realization that we'll face McCain in the GE, and that he will be a far more formidable opponent than we anticipated.

No, I don't know what the deal is about the midgets.

Apparently while on the teevee last night somebody said to Beck that the midget vote hadn't come in yet in CA. He then laughed. Beck then claimed on his show today that someone sent him an irate e-mail berating him for laughing at an insensitive term and urging him to "rise above it," haw haw haw. I kinda think he made it up.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I won't vote for Clinton if she's the nominee (it's all about the war for me). I live in *&^#( @ Kansas right now, so if the nominee isn't Obama, this place will go Republican anyway, so it won't matter which way I vote. I'll probably vote for my wife instead in that scenario.

I think Dennis Perrin is posting as daria.

Here's evenhandedness: lol at Obama "fending off corporate interests" when he's up to his eyes in their support.

Re: superdelegates, I'm not sure if I agree with Hatch (?) upthread that Hil or 'Bama would concede, but I do think that most of the superdelegates are remaining uncomitted now that the race is competitive so they can just go with whoever wins more committed delegates. The superdelegate system is designed to keep out candidates the establishment is horrified by, and Obama's getting the support of the establishment at this point. Anyone with an investment in the Democratic party should do everything in their power to avoid having this come down to the convention.

I don't think ILX is full of jerks personally to me, but something to consider is that maybe there's some degree of solidarity in which when you see a bunch of guys behave like jerks toward another woman, one takes it a little personal? It's not feeling sorry for her, now, it's about.. wanting to take a stand against the forces of jerkdom which probably most women are familiar with in their own lives.

ILX'ors are snippy and hyper-aggressive, but I doubt they're opposed to HRC on gender-bias grounds. On the other hand, I have a strong visceral negative reaction to seeing the conservative-leaning "Good Old Boys" who dominate TV punditry, and I certainly don't want us emulating that.

Also, 60% turnout in my ward yesterday!

daria, just to be clear -- I don't think my preference for Obama has anything to do with his having a penis, or her having a vagina. (Or does she lack a penis, and he lacks a vagina? whatever)

has daria forgotten who was standing on that Iowa defeat-night platform w/ Hil? All the Forces of Jerkdom the Dems could muster (maybe Rahm Emanuel was missing).

xpost I will vote for Hillary if she is the D nominee; I just won't do it as happily as I would if the nominee were Obama. The bottom line for me is the Supreme Court, and Hillary's choices would be preferable to McCain's or Romney's or (god forbid) Huckabee's.

I don't think John is totally alone in his "I'm a liberal type who won't vote for a Clinton" thinking, though. I've got several liberal women friends who can't stand her for their own reason. (One of them because "she stayed with her husband after he CHEATED on her." It's not necessarily a policy or personality thing - feelings about Hillary are polarizing for any number of reasons).

For the record, a) I'm a dude, b) I'm pretty sure I've been saying nice things about Hillary throughout this thread.

Morbius, he has far far fewer corporate interests by a huge factor than, say, a 20-year-old political dynastic enterprise called Clinton Inc.

ILX'ors are snippy and hyper-aggressive, but I doubt they're opposed to HRC on gender-bias grounds.

Yeah, truth be told, I would love to vote for a woman for president, but Hillary's not it, unfortunately.

^this is true for me as well